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these vaults gun!
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of lore crimes! Today we are
taking a bit of a chaotic turn as it were and we're going to be talking about
the black legion Avedon and his merry little band of... I was gonna be mean and
say failures but the last thing they did was blow up
Kadia so I did not complete failures but so the the black legion the poster boys
of the chaos space marines and you know there's a there's quite a bit of
information about them so I hope you're all ready to learn before we move on
though I'd like to pass over to Hal for the question of the week Hal what do you
what do you have for us? Well I've got some stuff that you'll probably be
annoyed about some stuff you'll laugh about and just general tomfoolery thank
you Samman for joining us though here to listen to these terrible terrible
Warhammer takes! I'm delighted to be here thank you for having me! We appreciate it man
we've actually met at Warhammer Fest so it's good to have a little reunion for
all the boys here obviously you were towering over us mr. six foot tall yeah
well I was talking to Colin about this the other day where I that's like 90% of my
confidence is being mildly tall but meeting the war warrior tier guys that
was devastating they're giant people! Yo they're so big! They're all so nice as
well! They're like a Terminator statue and we're like they're not far off like they're
almost as tall as the Terminator I actually felt I'm not even that short
like I'm 5'11 but like god I felt tiny compared to all these guys oh that felt
drowning easy easy there bud I'm 5'7 yeah easy there well speaking of
something easy we have some our question of the week last week was what was your
hashtag Imperial truth and there's a few hot takes here starting off by the rude
Canadian that's a bit of a paradox there hashtag Imperial truth Goj van dire was
secretly a sheba innu with a foot fetish but was redacted by the Inquisition for
unknown reasons yeah that's um that's canon it's ridiculous I know I always
say doge van dire I can't stop saying it what's up it's sheba innu it's the doge
dog oh okay yeah don't mind me old man that means from like 12 years ago well
speaking of some old some even older memes here by hashtag Imperial truth by
the Wunder another Imperial truth idea the watches on the lion's model are
named milk and cigarettes as the lion returned to his son's oh my man we got
the milk and cigs he needed that was classic there's no one here this is
straight for Colin here hashtag Imperial truth by neon LF graves we see you as a
regular on law crimes appreciate you buddy it's Bretonnia has a middle class
oh god I don't acknowledge it Bretonnia hates already started eating the horses
or something like where would that be in the scale of you know Bretonnia and life
they only have they only get stepped on by the nobleman once a day regularly
speaking of us for proponia speaking of getting steps on funny enough the last
word here by Samuel hashtag Imperial truth when Horace was stabbed and about
to leave this world the lunar walls were not afraid of pushing and even stepping
on civilians such was his desperation that they used his sick primal good ball
shiny head as a battering rat like some Angra would do if he thought he could get
away with it the funny part about that that's actually canon in a way like
they were just like move and it's just slatted leave smash it out of here Wow it
makes me think of like there's a reference somewhere in the back of my
head with someone used a head oh it's Toy Story where they have Rex and the
like use that's what it is got some fun making this clip oh god well thank you
all for your contributions and those are some spicy takes I think I like the the
milk and cigarettes one to be honest so for the next question of the week we
have Abaddon is launching a new at black crusade but what is his objective
hashtag black crusade we want them to be wrong we want them to be funny I mean
Eddie make it crazy if you want boys and girls don't obviously try not to have
too much foul language but yeah what is the objective what was the mr. Abbey
Abbey daddy doing on his silly goose time on the hashtag black crusade we're
not gonna be discussing the Breton in middle class today today we're talking
about the black Legion so I'm gonna pass over to Ed mr. the sandman himself and
he will be taking us on this little journey shall I say to learn about the
war master the the current war master and the kind of as it earlier like the
poster boys of the setting salmon take it away yeah poster boys of the setting
is pretty apt really there are many foes of the Imperium of man and the emperor
but we all know that that true enemy is chaos and chaos is greatest asset is the
black Legion and Abaddon in fact it is said that should Abaddon ever side with
any of the chaos gods the great game would come to a swift close as the black
Legion has plagued the Imperium of man for millennia this vile faction bound to
the allied forces of chaos has left a long and bloody trail of carnage and
destruction in their wake it's led by Ezekiel Abaddon and they have risen to
become one of the Imperium's most formidable adversaries during the
closing days of the Horus heresy a time when the traitor legions having
suffered defeat and with their dreams of conquest shattered they made a desperate
retreat with Horus's body the betrayal by Horus had caused an irreparable rift
within the ranks of the traitors and there was no hope for redemption no
chance of healing old wounds so they retreated into a place where the
loyalist forces could no longer catch them the Eye of Terror among these
traitors were the fragmented remnants of the sons of Horus led by the greatest
surviving warlord Ezekiel Abaddon but Abaddon quickly left his brothers with
the vengeful spirit their greatest flagship while many of the legions and
their Primarchs succumbed to the temptations and corrupting influence of
the Chaos Gods Abaddon resisted despite the madness and excesses of the warp he
remained steadfast in his desire for vengeance against the Emperor never
forgetting the defeat of Horus and the debt he was owed it was this burning
thirst for revenge that sustained Abaddon over the centuries and eventually
drove him to rally the traitor legions for war once more after the body of
Horus was stolen by the Emperor's children Abaddon returned to his brothers Fabius
Bile had made a clone of the deceased war master which Abaddon quickly destroyed
and its death the clone even recognized Abaddon and called it and called Abaddon
his son but Abaddon replied back that he was no son of Horus out of his
unyielding desire for retribution the black Legion was then born in black and
gold are his brothers remade Abaddon gathered the surviving sons of Horus
and fashioned them into a force that would dominate countless stars within the
eye unlike the other legions Abaddon did not pledge allegiance to any individual
god or demon Primarch nor did he abide by any restrictive code or obligation
but one by one he sought their allegiance and one by one he got it his
sole focus was the annihilation of the Imperium and the completion of Horus's
sinister work but where Horus accepted all of the blessings of the Chaos Gods
Abaddon secretly despises chaos but uses it as a tool thus he welcomed any warrior
willing to swear loyalty to him and him alone alone in one all the chaos gods
alert in the ranks of the black Legion the traitor world the traitor warlords
dressed in their distinctive black and brass armor committed heinous acts in
the name of Abaddon each adding to his blood-soaked tapestry of death and
destruction these warlords received the favor of Abaddon and the growing might
of the Legion moreover they were granted a place in the black Crusades
blights upon the Imperium during these Crusades the forces of chaos led by
Abaddon gathered in strength and with each Crusade they grew in power and
accomplished Abaddon's nefarious aims these culminated in the 13th Black
Crusade where Cadia itself fell the second strongest planet within the
Imperium this of course it's theorized unleashed the great rift which has
been a boon to chaos and unleashed absolute catastrophe across the
Imperium so for 10,000 years Abaddon had refined his sinister strategies
relentlessly relentlessly pursuing his goals each attack each world destroyed
and each army vanquished is but a piece in the grand puzzle of his greater war
the black Legion always by his side descends upon burning worlds and
shattered cities that's their chainsaws howling and bolters barking heralding
the coming end times their actions cast a shadow of doom upon humanity the
gravest threat of the Imperium the greatest the gravest threat that the
Imperium faces resonating from the eye of terror itself wherever the black
armored warriors of the black Legion tread cities crumble and Imperial
worlds fall apart star systems are purged disappearing from the void their
citizens slaughtered and slaughtered and their histories obliterated I'm gonna
pass over to another quick question there did when he became like the poster
boy of chaos did his top knot get longer I swear like like Game of Thrones
Khalid, you're not allowed to cut your hair until you fail or something like
that but yeah it's an old Chthonian thing so it has got that kind of idea and he is very protective
of in the Horus heresy I remember it is just it looks bigger it does look bigger
though compared to like his like all the art of him in like the great crusade
like Horus heresy it looks like a reasonable length whereas like his
model now is like it's like a little read stick like still like stuck onto
his head with superglue yeah it is hair hell it grows I know but it's long the
top knot makes a lot of appearances in the range of 140k like it's not just the
black Legion you've always got like the white scars you got the towel so it's
like it's a very popular hairstyle it does beg the question though for ten
thousand years what has Aberdon used to like condition his luscious locks who
knows what he found in the Eye of Terror that was the set of Black Crusade he
was for a special kind of conditioner that was on a pleasure world honestly
it's not far off I'm pretty sure some of those Black Crusades were just like one
of them was for a sword and then one of them was just for like he had a
potential rival and he was like oh wait let me just turn this let me like a
little like daddy's and then he went and invaded the hive world of Tiaj Henley to get some
moisturizers for his skin like what is going on Aberdon you're being a bit you
know like I get self-care is important but you've got other things to be doing
right now surely now he's a diva the hair the top knot is cool though but I
just it's absurdly long I'm so sorry like I just I can't help but stare at it
and think is that the height of it like a single man are you length shaming
Aberdon how that's not let's not put that out on the internet let's not let's
not have that and who has a go about his height now like short shape well length
shaving because he's like I'm not as tall as your rendition that reminded me
of like with the you know the intro like the Dark Crusade game Dawn of War Dark
Crusade and played a door I think a lot of your like content kind of reminds you
of that like I fell in love with Warhammer with that kind of you know
like epic narration so I appreciate it
the guy's voice he's like really rough a voice but he's like an overarching
timeline thing marine scream which is amazing you know in my spare time I've
been trying to practice like a space marine voice because like I have like
quite a deep voice when I use this microphone but like I could sound
space means a very gruff I can't do that I just want to do what I should most do
one space marine voice or prime my voice they're interchangeable I just try to
rip off Jonathan Keeble not jumping people um yes Jonathan Keeble who does
yeah yeah I just go like oh he I like his voice I'll just like emulate that as
best I can I mean I'm getting you sending a letter in the post like cease
and desist imitating Jonathan Keeble compared to like some of the other people
in our Warhammer community like some of their voices oh my lord like you know I
thought I thought I had a decent voice as well and then you hear some of these
guys and you go Christ like I just sound like a little baby compared to these
like giants of voice narration no but that's yeah essentially that's my long
weird way of saying Abdon's got a very long top knot I'm wondering how it grew
so big if that's all we'd like to interject for now then I can begin the
expert sector section unless anyone else has anything else to offer I would just
say that was probably one of the most serious and like well well put intros
and like description of the black Legion and Abaddon in particular usually
whenever I hear them talk about them they're making fun of them so yeah this
is thing I'm one of the few people that actually likes Abaddon as a character
you'll find out why later on I think I've got a list of like I don't know a
twenty or so of my favorite facts of the black Legion and Abaddon but I I think
a lot of shit sorry can I swear yeah go for it yeah so yeah he's such a no I'm
joking but I actually really like him as a character I think he's phenomenally
interesting and I thought I know ADB's writing is his versions of chaos like
some people like it so we would don't I've really like the way he writes chaos
and like the nightlaws trilogy as well oh yeah that kind of using a us as a tool
idea and the thing is about Abaddon is you would follow him no matter what
anybody says about him you would follow Abaddon out of you know I'm not saying
you wouldn't follow a Primark but if you were a if you were on the side of the
traitors not by your own choice you would follow Abaddon Abaddon comes up
with crazy ideas like hey maybe let's not just kill people because our dad
says so and hey maybe we did have a point in terms of siding with the emperor
who has like turned on every tool within his arsenal over time maybe that would
have been a recipe for disaster and yeah he is he's yeah he's also like one of
only like a couple of first captains still left like this core fair on
there's him yeah well yeah there's a lot that they don't like semitar like there's
kind of an idea of what happened to him but like a lot of them they haven't
confirmed what happened to them so I guess yeah they I don't know why they've
been so cool you know what happened to Sigismund yeah interesting with that
there's a couple of first captains like Karn still around although he's not
exactly too many I thought he got turned into the first captain after everyone
else got no he's the he's the primus equity and there's like some canon
conflicts with which captain he was and then there's like the whole thing where
he killed one of the devourers in the fighting bits by accident they're like I
guess you're a devourer now and he's like oh god's sake I think I'd alone I'd
lost a little round isn't he oh yeah but he's cheating he's cheating he's too
primers no yes that's our questions that's all that's all statements well I
suppose then we'll begin where it all began funnily enough we're gonna go
through quite a I wouldn't say too exhaustive history but we can't talk
about the black legion without referencing the founding 16th legion the
lunar wolves of terror so to start things off the very beginning of the
the Emperor's expanse into the galaxy started with the unification of terror
and during the unification of terror obviously there were 20 legions that
were raised up they made from the genetic materials of the Primarchs that
were also made by the Emperor in order to one unified terror and then expand
into the galaxy the most revered and powerful of all these legions was the
lunar wolves and they were by far especially before the the return of the
Primarchs of the Imperium very well regarded by humanity as a whole they
were experts of shock assaults they were versatile in their methods of war and
they would earn their namesake from the pacification of the moon of Luna where
they would be called the Emperor's wolves or the lunar wolves it's still
regarded I know I mentioned this I think in our last episode on the great crusade
that even to this day Terran still refer to the call of the wolf as something to
be feared since the beginning of their glories as a legion because they were
so potent that they would be feared by the populace as the wolves of the
Emperor now it's also known by everyone that the first officially discovered
Primarch of the Imperium was Horus Lupical on the world of Cephonia and as
such that would also bolster the lunar wolves and their pedigree with the
remolding of the legion in his image the the culture within the legion would be
as we mentioned with the top knots modeled after Cephonian gang culture
because Cephonia was you know we've we mentioned the last one like space
Chicago like what if Chicago what if Chicago was a planet and it was full of
crime bosses and they were like I wasn't matter you I wasn't matter you bang bang
and then I don't know why they're still in the 1950s but still and and Colin can
offer obviously attest to living near Chicago that he's an expert on on the
the culture there and basically an honorary Cephonian in his own regard
is that slander or is that like a nice little oh my god I forgot the damn word
a compliment I've said I've said I've gone on record plenty of times of this
channel and my own making fun of Chicago I think it is what it is it is what it
is yeah and with with the legion obviously all the legions were originally
Terran born but with Cephonia they draw they drew so many recruits that yeah
gang markings and the trappings of like when you look at these sons of Horus
armor and the lunar wolves armor they have like the interesting masks and the
top knots and everything but that's all based on Cephonian culture and my
favorite thing about this sorry can I just say go for it go for it when
obviously these things were designed a long time ago by the writers and stuff
of Black Library but in hindsight that the factions that the traitor legions
are no surprise at all like the death guard like the death guard like actively
hates Mortarion actively hated the Emperor like everything like my favorite
thing is the death shroud there's like seven deaths route always within 49
paces of Mortarion or something like that and it's like oh what do you know
he falls to Nagl whose favorite number seven like yeah sure yeah it's it's so
bizarre like he does so much to breed the resentment into Perturago like it's
just yeah there must have been there's a bit there's like a debate when or a
conversation between Malkador and Dorne and the Emperor where they talk about
what what who might turn traitor and actually there's a really interesting
part where he is sure of the Lions loyalty but he's not sure about
Gillamans and realistically the ones that turn traitor must have been very
little surprise in hindsight I think even Horace says like when they get to
the city of terror he goes why am I surrounded by the my brothers who are
the broken and broken and the damned not broken and damned that's the missing
primal he calls him like the broken ones which is like so I've got the worst
brothers and he's like I wish Ferris is with me and he's like his skull is just
like in the corner it's like yeah that's really warm master short story isn't it
yeah you just have a little few times with Ferris's skill I like to think well
that was a very specific Shakespeare joke for any of your audience yeah no I got I
got it I knew him it just makes me sad because I meant I like iron hands every
time I think of Irish remember in the book Fulgrim when like they basically
tosses his head on the floor and I'm going oh like I just really like iron
hands so it makes me sad a bit of respect yeah just flop like out his eyes
out too and it's like even Horace when he first sees it goes you know he doesn't
want to like show it Horace just scrunching his face up going yeesh I
mean who would not gag if they're like family members severed head was on the
floor in front of them like it wouldn't relatable yeah continuing on there's not
much left to say about the lunar walls really they were very cunning warriors
with the return of their Primarch obviously they got even more powerful and
more shall we say proficient in the arts of war because for a long time I think
20 years they're the only one of the legions who has a Primarch at the helm
and they find Leman Ross and the space wolves and then eventually they get more
and more Primarchs back and at this by this point when the great crusade is in
full flow the lunar wolves are by and large the most revered respected and
powerful legion the only the only legion that's a close second is the ultra
Marines and that's because they've got so many worlds with so many recruits so
much vast numbers and armaments and Gilliman is a master at you know
logistics so it would make sense that they're the only one who's on the heels
of the lunar walls but even then they're not quite as you know they're not the
exemplars of the legions and we was that some earth sweet marines they winning mm-hmm
you do like a bit of blue but with with the the great crusade all the Primarchs
they're assembled you know Primarchs assemble and they're already and they're
all laying waste to the Eldar which we all like to see and they already and
they're claiming worlds like their Pokemon like I want that one I want that
one that's mine and eventually they're doing such a good job of this that
there's a resurgence of a virulent plague across the galaxy known as the
orcs who are just breeding and well not breeding there they're birthing from
spores and they're having a good war or two and eventually it gets so out of
hand because there's the the humans are decimating everything that isn't an orc
and the orcs are fighting each other and getting stronger and all of a sudden
there's a huge tide of green skins going across the galaxy and the Emperor goes
we've got to stop this before it gets out of hand this is the most important
stage of the war and the the final the final leap to becoming the dominant
species in the galaxy is we've got to kill the orcs so the Emperor amasses
every legion huge regiments of the Astra Militar and millions of soldiers
thousands of Titans and they start to whittle away the orcs and push them back
unto the final bastion of the the orc Empire which is Ulanor one day will be
known as Armageddon and when they get to Ulanor Prime the Emperor goes we're
gonna kill their orc war boss Erlak Urg, Horus bring your lunar wolves come with
me we'll end this and during the battle Ulanor is vast it's you know I think
I think it's mainly the White Scars, Ultramarines and Sons of Horus that are
attacking in and around Ulanor Prime and the Emperor gets busy in the fighting
and Horus sees an opportunity to teleport his son then lunar wolves
unto the peak of the the orc headquarters I think it's like a big
tower a big spire and Horus confronts Erlak Urg, kicks his ass throws him off
the tower until he splatters on the ground below which I love is like an
imagery you just what's that you know like that that that meme of like that
person looking up to see a piano before it crashes on top of their head but it's
just a giant orc yeah they were scared when they went oh god our massive guy
in charge is now like a Jackson Pollock over here oh run away run away and the
White Scars and Ultramarines have a great time just cutting them down
whatever's left for a while and after a while it's a clear victory the orcs are
routed the Emperor is really pleased and he goes okay I've got to do this webway
project thing which we mentioned a bit more of in our great crusade part one
episode and he goes I need to attend to things on Holy Terror in secret
Horus you are now the war master of the Imperium so he gifts him this title the
16th Legion are then rechristened as the sons of Horus and they adopted it's not
instant they have to actually I'm sorry really cool little tidbit but it's
really cool so in that in the final battle on Ulanor there's a short story
that covers Horus and the Emperor fighting together it's as amazing as
you'd imagine and something that's really relevant for today there's a very
clear bit when the Emperor actually saves Abaddon I know what you're talking
about yeah it's actually kind of like I shouldn't probably let that one get
squished yeah it's funny in hindsight but yeah it's pretty cool and actually
there there's a bit where people often debate this where actually the Emperor
looks like he's gonna get overwhelmed by the ways you know in hindsight we need
to be like a primal type level of power but yeah too often a debate in terms of
was the Emperor kind of Horus then comes to the rescue kind of yeah and
debate in terms of was it the Emperor just kind of testing Horus or was yeah
was our primal that powerful can they actually kind of threaten the master of
mankind I wouldn't put it past the Emperor to be like I'm gonna hold back a
little so he can prove himself because I've got him in mind as well too because
if you're the Emperor you think I've got to do the Webway project we're nearly
done with this oh that's the perfect opportunity to make sure that he's ready
I would assume that's what the Emperor would do. You forgot the funniest part of that which is
they get done the ground beneath them gets like destroyed so they're falling
yeah and all the custodians just like because they're so loyal to the Emperor
they just start jumping off the edge and suddenly even like splatter next to them
but they're just like my lord and they just jump it's like it's like almost
suicidal but literally they cannot not defend the Emperor so literally they
just jump in like to their deaths because they're like why not yeah I think it's
much funnier to imagine that this random orc nearly just took out the God Emperor
of mankind well before anything else could have come. I've always wondered I don't know if this is ever
actually confirmed anywhere but there's often a question of why did the Emperor
start when they they did and why when he did and when we have conversations with
perpetuals during the siege of Terra there's this idea of the Emperor really
started to rush and we towards we get to a certain point and of course there's
often an idea that the Emperor had visions of the threats that would one
day the sale humanity like the Tyranids and the Necrons etc but I like to think
Ulanor was the main driving force because there is as we find out in the
War of the Beast if you let an orc war get out of control it's really bad
they are phenomenally powerful and so I do wonder whether that was completely
legit an orc and it's so nice there's a hilarious Reddit post on
within once of they could keep track of every victory and loss across all the
books and orcs do terribly so it would be nice to have some sort of cool orc
victory although with what Colin was saying about could it best the only
thing about that is when I think of that orc was bested by Horus before he got
corrupted and the Emperor still managed to kill Horus when he was empowered by
chaos and he was restraining himself for a while because he didn't want to do it
until the very last moment yeah I don't know I'm like he could have probably
just been like Psywave splat there goes that orc warlord I just like to met like
the orc came out he was a it was a cheap shot it was a Morki orc yeah I mean that
is that is what happens when you leave the orcs alone the Eldar the Eldar
weren't around to clean them up anymore so they that guy showed up
don't leave the orcs alone like don't feed the orcs but anyway so that's
Ulan-or basically done so the the Primarch of the 16th Horus Lübegau doesn't
initially like immediately change the name and color scheme of his of his
legion to the sons of Horus he thinks it's a bit go she's like I don't want
to be seen as this oh look at me I'm the warm-ass to the big ups but he is by
this point clearly the first among equals he is ascended past the stature
of all of his brothers even the ones who might be better suited to the task as
warm-ass to like the lion or sanguineous or Bobby G or a boutique
Gilliman Bobby but in the end this basically for a few years the sons of
Horus are you know lording it up they're going look at us we're the best legion
all the leaders are pretty cool bro but they're not exactly you know the sons of
Horus am I right bro that's basically you know like all of them and the just
a side note yeah with the whole thing of Aberdon he was the only member of the
just Stare and to survive the battle with Erlak alongside Horus I think he's
like had to just kind of be buried under a bunch of corpses of the orcs and then
he just like staggers out at the end like well that was tricky but eventually
even though the sons of Horus are bringing compliances across the worlds
and across the galaxy is the the great crusade is you know not running out of
steam but it's coming to an end it's nearly over and and the Astartes at this
point are going I wonder what we'll do when we're not fighting anything oh
that'll be interesting I would know maybe I'll pick up pottery but
unfortunately great crusade was not meant to end on a light note because
this is when the big cataclysmic event and as the Horus heresy would begin
during the compliance of the world of I believe it is Darwin the sons of Horus
are trying to in compliance with this world long story short we cover this more in the
great crusade episode again but long story short the planetary governor Eugen
Timber is corrupted by the plague god Nergal he's also given the anaphame
elic sword from Erebus stolen from the inter-ex species which is another
tangent all you need to know is Horus goes back to daven to try and bring
compliance to this rebellious world that he's just conquered he gets stabbed with
a magic sword and it puts him in a coma and the the elite advisors and captains
of the Legion the Mournaval including Ezekiel Abaddon freaking out their dad
is wounded he's in a coma they don't know what to do they go to the moon of
Darwin wait we forgot to say that they coffin dance and pass the civilians and
ram them with his shiny bald head as the comment said.
Well even though he was asleep so they knock the door open with the big bald
chromium dome and yeah they speak to the davenite priests with Erebus in tow
Horus within his kind of warp infused fugue state whatever you want to call it
where he's he's in the warp but he's also dreaming and his spirit is in the
warp is it also tied to his body we don't know it's magic-y stuff he is then
shown visions by the Chaos gods about the terrible future that's upcoming you
know great crusade to electric Boogaloo but with more chains and terrible things
and he is reborn as the warmaster of chaos for the remainder of the well from
the dawn and the remainder of the Horus heresy the sons of Horus are actually
not as forefront as some of the other legions like they're there for Istvan
free because it's the opening stage where they're betrayed that they're
they're weeding out the loyalists in their ranks and the other legions that
are sided with Horus and they're obviously at the siege of terror and
they help out in the Istvan five drop site massacre but the sons of Horus are
kind of kept back because they are the creme de la creme of the legions Horus
doesn't want to waste his men doing the mundane stuff that the iron warriors can
do essentially I know there's gonna be some copium in the in the comments about
I like iron warriors and Emperor's children but like from Horus's
perspective he's like I'm not gonna put my men in danger when I can save them
for the siege of terror and that kind of stuff so I think really
when you think about like post Istvan they're not really that focal for a lot
of the stories they don't fight as many of the other legions kind of squarely
they're mostly fighting worlds but they're actually again like they're
conquering loads of planets but they're not like a writing point of view they've
obviously had a bunch of books at the start of the Horus heresy so during this
time it's the writers focusing on other legions primarily and we actually skip a
lot of a lot of time without going back to Horus and Horus heresy if you read it
chronologically I know they've just released that new Cephonia is it
Cephonia reckoning or whatever it's got something with like the guy with the the big axe on
the front and the the Imperial Fist so that would be interesting I haven't I
haven't read that one but long story short Horus is like I'm keeping my guys
like ready to take holy terror I know they're harassed a bit by the
shattered legions which is quite cool like Shadrach my boy Shadrach Medusen
who's a Chad but that's not their their intention they just happen to be attacked
by them and even when the siege of terror happens Horus doesn't really
release his legion until the last moment so that he can be the one who kicks the
door down when you know the world eaters and the the iron warriors and deathguard
have already kind of battered the enemy enough that they can just you know
treadmill they can just steamroll over the rest of the defenders of
the Emperor so I would do things probably actually we're talking about
Saturday night here is a story have you guys read Saturday night very recently
okay so yeah Saturday night is like a gambit that Aberdon and
Perturabo wants to go ahead there are some tunnels underneath the Imperial
Palace and Dawn finds out about this but of course because it's 40k Perturabo
and Aberdon know Dawn knows about this and they know the Horus won't let them
do it then says that Horus did want them to do it and that's why Perturabo
eventually leaves the siege of terror but anyway ultimately they send the
Jushtarin and the Jushtarin are Aberdon's original kind of company they are the
first company of the sons of Horus and they are all Terminators that's they're
the ones that wear black out the sons of Horus and these are as Andy says like
the best of the best these are the best warriors of the entire Imperium and
traitor forces and to stand against them we get kill teams and it is the coolest
scene it's such a cool scene so many legends of the Horus heresy form these
kill teams and then they stand against the Jushtarin and cool cool signs of
stuff like is it the is it Endrid Har is something like the black hound and then
has a fun one and they literally they go through them and it's yeah it's really cool
it's like that scene in the first Star Wars was like red one standing by red
five standing by it's like the Astartes yeah and that's oh yeah there's a bit with Dawn that goes through them and
Dawn then has to leave because Borgrim I should say to allow this to happen this
is where the Emperor's children the Emperor's children are very famous in 40k for
being cowards because they leave the siege of terror this is what basically
forces them to do this where they they attack on the surface so Dawn has to go
and deal with that so you just get a load of Astartes to deal with this and
yeah the Loyalist forces hold them back Abaddon is very nearly killed by
Nathaniel Garrow he's like one of the only Jushtarin that makes out well like
Endrid Har rushes him and then he kills Endrid Har and then he collapses on him
and he's like a previously he used to be a Thunder Warrior so he's massive and
Abaddon's like I can't move and Garrow's like I'm gonna stab you and it's very
funny hearing him like this is also worm his way out it's worth mentioning as
well like during this part of the siege of terror Horus is kind of in a one-on-one
psychic slash mental duel with the Emperor and he's not this is like kind
of the a much bigger accumulation of the rift between what would be the sons of
Horus and Horus like because Horus is kind of not involved in the actual siege
he's like fighting on a different plane so Abaddon even gets a little bit this
is where his like resentment has been growing and he's like you know he's a
space marine he's having to like deal with the Primarchs as like an equal
whereas I like is are you just yeah it's Abaddon like it's really interesting
it's a really it's a Zadu Layak is a word bearer who doesn't when Lorgar betrays
Horus and Horus piece the shit out of him Lorgar then fucks off and the Zadu
Layak and a bunch of word bearers do go to terror and Zadu Layak pretty clearly
believes that actually Abaddon will be the chosen War Master some days these
things are all called long before and one of the things that was so interesting
for me was when I first read the Black Legion series I thought that Talon of
Horus the first book would be the story of Abaddon kind of realizing the Horus
was a fool that's what Abaddon says a bunch of times well that kind of Horus was a
fool and he would realize this but actually by the time we meet Abaddon
there's like a little quest to go and find Abaddon he's already realized this
and he's very much trying to you know convince his what will become his
brothers to actually turn their backs on their fathers where possible and like
the reason for that is because the actual kind of main character development
of Abaddon happens in the Horus in the Siege of Terror and it's a pretty big
change because when people are critical of Abaddon the reason they do that is
because in the first the main trilogy which is one of the most popular series
of books the first three novels of the Horus heresy Abaddon's a touch whiny I'll
give you that but he gets that the reason for that is because they obviously
didn't want they didn't want the Horus heresy to look like a clear setup for
Abaddon but it's really well done in the Siege of Terror where he does get this
kind of set up throughout the books and him and Paterabo actually kind of
realized that they're kind of aligned on how they think Horus is some Horus is
actually like a fool and he's being a puppeted by chaos now what we actually
find out and probably the biggest retcon to the Horus heresy has been that
Horus is not a puppet and Horus is actually in control of everything and
Paterabo and Abaddon's scheme of satanine which they think they kind of
did behind Horus's back it turns out Horus knew about this all along and yeah
I'm kind of curious to see how Abaddon's gonna reconcile all of that
the last the best bit about I think all his best seen in the entire
Siege of Terror so far was when they were trying to drag him away because he
got wounded didn't he yeah and he literally starts to cry because he's
like he enjoys fighting so much like that's why Abaddon's like the perfect
he's not it's why I think he's clearly right like the Emperor would discard
many of the Space Marines at the end of the Great Crusade because there's no
place for soldiers like Abaddon because he's just he he doesn't enjoy peace he
likes fighting that's why I think in my opinion there'll never be an end to
Abaddon like they'll never do an end times in 40k because Abaddon is like I
don't really want to win but that's like a discussion for later but he weeps
when they try to drag him away being like you're gonna die here's like but I
like fighting so much he's like no let me back in he's like screaming let me
back in let me have a really little funny little bit where like one of them
I think he's an Iron Warrior I'm trying to remember anyway but he he's like under ground
trying to make his way into the Saturnine tunnels and he gets stuck in the
drill but of course as a starty they're not functionally immortal but they live
for a very long time so assume he just dies of like thousands of years later
just underneath the Imperial palace and no one knows he's there damn that's one
way to go yeah you made it all the way to the
siege of terror and he got buried yeah but like yeah because he's a because
he's a star he also just like can't like just after that there anything nice and
straightforward it's gonna be like millennia I mean slightly going back a
moment like another thing I like about Avedon during the the the siege
of Terebrox in particular like I'm just almost done with echoes of eternity and
there's like a nice bit where it's a flashback of him and Tarek Torgadon the
captain of the second company of the Lunar Walls at the time of Sanguinus
talking about oh he's just about to meet his his legion he's just been found and
Sanguinus has been fighting alongside the the Lunar Wolves and yeah I kind of
learned from them and they're having a bit of banter they're like oh you'll be
a great Primarch we know you'll do and it's like it's interesting seeing
Avedon interact with a lot of the big heavy heavy-hitting players in the
series and even with like what you said about Pertorabo when he realizes oh I
think Pertorabo used me and I thought I was on his level and I thought we were
friends but no actually Pertorabo was just using me and then he's obviously
got the alliance and the newer books and you're like okay like yeah he learns
from his mistakes and he also interacts with the biggest most powerful characters
in the setting quite often. I don't think it's that book but I think there's
another Arrimwar book but there's definitely a quote nice and sure where
Sanguinus calls Avedon a model of warriorship that's how much Sanguinus
thinks of Avedon and to clarify that's not because one of the things I love
about Avedon personally and I'm always surprised when people hate Avedon
because Avedon is not the best fighter he does not think himself is the
best swordsman out of the Sons of Horus when he has Iskandar Khaon when he
duels Iskandar Khaon during the siege of terror I'm sorry during the
legion wars then you know Iskandar is probably the better fighter of the two
of them and he has got a lot of bulk to him but like what he is is he is actually
point noble at heart and that's what Sanguinus is referring to a man he does
like that if you like space marines because you're like oh my brother which
a lot of people do Avedon's kind of your guy like he's big on brotherhood and
yeah yes he wants Dominion but that's he has he would do almost anything for his
brothers like there's even and I don't think they've ever properly explored this but he
even besieges Comorah for one of his brothers which is a crazy feat to
undertake well before we get to two sides because I'm sure we were like going
some other bits later especially like the Talon of Horus is one of my favorite
books and all of the books just to cap things off for now with the kind of
siege of terror so Horus obviously deploys the rest of his sons of Horus
Legion to finally storm the Imperial Palace during this time the Emperor goes
enough of this right I'm gonna go and give him a slap
Grogor Dorne Sanguinus come with me bring some men we're gonna go kill Horus
towards the vengeful spirit they have a bit of a clash the Emperor is wounded
horrifically but he also kills Horus in the fray and the sons of Horus retreat
from holy terror because the war is over the war master is dead half or well most
of the primarch I mean Angron's down Paderabos retreated Mortarion's been
beheaded in rather flashy fashion by everyone's favorite primarch Jagatai
Khan my favorite prime everyone who doesn't like Jagatai go away you're
rubbish the traders have lost basically and Abaddon is pretty annoyed about this
so he kind of goes on a I would best describe as a pilgrimage for meaning he
he joins the Legion in retreating to the Eye of Terror and he kind of abandons the
sons of Horus because he goes I've had enough of these losers
we're all a bunch of losers dad was a loser we're a loser hate the Imperium
love me Legion hate the Imperium and before we go on to kind of the
events of the the Talon of Horus book in particular Colin I have a quote that I'm
gonna put in the side chat would you be up for reading a quote from I think this
is the second black Legion book I'd be happy to use it it's in the I found it
all right this is a cool-looking quote the only good is knowledge secounder I
hope I pronounced that right the only good is knowledge secounder the only
evil is ignorance that is a saying uttered by as many fools as visionaries
and an attitude that has led to damnation more than once the last man to
speak those words of my presence doomed our Legion
quote from the second book quite like the input I don't know the context of
the quote but uh I like to imagine that was said directly to Magnus I'm not
secounder but I feel like there might have been referencing the thousand sons
just a tad hmm well the thing is like the events are leading up a kind of a
conglomeration of how do you take all these legions that utterly failed in
their objective and remold them into something new also into a Legion that
has learned from its mistakes so during the the scouring all the traitors are
retreating to the Eye of Terror with as much haste as possible so that you know
like Lehman Russ and his space walls or Gilliman and his his blue smurfs are
gonna you know wipe you out before you can get out so they all try to to
retreat and Abaddon's gone and done his little pilgrimage and Fabius Bile
everyone's favorite mad scientist of the Emperor's children he's got a clever
idea now we all love Fabius for his crazy science experiments but this time
he's he's one-upped himself he has been for a time now cloning Primarchs
there's short stories about him cloning Ferus Manus for Fulgrim in order for
Fulgrim to hopefully rebuild his brother from the ground up so that he might
once again have banter and revelries but I don't know if Hal if you know
the the reference but there's like a short story where he's having a
conversation with Ferus who's been cloned several times and Ferus's clone
realizes he's been killed by Fulgrim and then he kills him and then there's like
a back room with like a hundred like corpses of Ferus Manus all piled on top
of each other you're like oh Fabius has been busy no silver arms though not with
no arms no just raw Manus for us but he's been able to I believe clone every
one of the Primarchs in his efforts he's he's gotten material from all sorts like
for example I believe he's gotten blood from Sanguineous from the Talon of
Horus and he's used that to clone Sanguineous he's maybe gotten a lock of
hair from his own Primarch Fulgrim to make his Primarch and he needs something
to clone the War Master himself so it's the Emperor's children under Fabius's
orders they steal War Master Horus's corpse from the world of Malium or
Malium which is in the Eye of Terror and it's basically the the base of
operations of the sons of Horus that are remaining and the primogenitor gets his
hands on the I don't know how like there's a cook because the reference in
the books at least is like the Emperor vaporizes Horus so I'm like just
imagining like a nose or something like or an ear of Horus I think he supposedly
it was like what happened with the the Prime Orc on Ull-Nor he doesn't he
builds it's why they think the Emperor may have gone quote-unquote easy he's
actually building up a special power the Emperor has where he literally
eliminates your soul from existence so I think he just he literally eliminated
Horus's soul from his body like soul trap from Skyrim just oh no no it's like
it's gone like the chaos
in his hand it's definitely a reference to Horus's whole body later on we'll see
the the siege of the last year Tarot book is coming out I guess this year so
we'll have to see how it truly ends but for current question I didn't want to
interrupt again but like I was gonna say in terms of Abaddon because you can't
ask it do you think that he will be there on the ventral spirit when Abaddon
when Horus and the Emperor face? I think Abaddon I think the new law will be that
Abaddon lets them into like because they've lost aren't they on the
ventral spirit I feel like Abaddon will betray Horus now rather than it being
like a like he I think he accepts like you know because when you when you meet
him in the... were you a I think Abaddon's gonna lower the shields guy was that your
theory as well? yeah well I think I think he'll I think he'll do something to
betray Horus in the last book because I think he's already he's come to the
point where he realizes when I think one he doesn't want the war to end and two I
don't think he wants Horus I think he yeah I think he thinks Horus has already
abandoned them so he's gonna betray Horus in some way I don't think you'll
necessarily betray Horus I certainly think he will fight Loken I think that
the actual battle is Horus and Loken 2v2ing Abaddon and Horus and I think
that Loken will essentially win the fight you know knock Abaddon out kind of
thing and I'm sure some incredibly harsh parting words about brotherhood etc will
be thrown and then I think Loken will be there the thing that always blows my
mind is that the Emperor walking in and seeing Sanguinius dead doesn't make him
kill Horus and the there's a big book in the big bit in the final in the second
penultimate book where they he talks about how Sanguinius is the favorite
son and Loken is the favorite son of Horus and so I think that actually it
will be the Emperor seeing Horus kill his favorite son yeah that actually
makes the Emperor finally go informatically it'd be good to like end
the series with the character that started the series as well
he has to end it with I was there that was so good kind of like referencing what I said about
before like because Loken is the catalyst but I think a good way to describe Abaddon
in the books is he's the witness like he is at every step of the books he's in so
many bits like the better mention with like Sanguinius he's he's mentioned in
all sorts of little tangents it's like Abaddon is the one who sees everything
happen and then like absorbs all that knowledge and then is the one who's like
you're the witness to the Horus heiress you've been there from the start you're
all the major events and you have to burden that and I think that's the
interesting thing about Abaddon in that regard whereas Loken is more like I'm
the one who the story starts with and I'll be the one where it ends as well
hopefully but very very thematic with with obviously the first book Horus
rising for anyone who doesn't know much about Warhammer it kind of starts with
Loken saying I was there the day Horus threw the Emperor as a funny tale about
a sort of mini guy calling himself the Emperor and Horus kills him as like a
small like offshoot world and I think it would be very obviously thematic if it
was Loken saying again I was there the day that Horus threw the Emperor or is
that why is it just to finish off as in Collins comment section once once I was
there the day Horus shat himself
that was a great line. One of the things I think they've done really well in the
Siege of Terror is they've not tried to like throw in a surprise purely to throw
in a surprise like there's a lot of blank space in the original old lore that
they've used well and they've definitely retconned things in places you know the
entire Dark King storyline is new but it doesn't really detract from the
original story so like the things like that it's so expected for Dan Abnett to
put that in I feel like he will do just because it is it's so necessary.
No need to subvert our expectations just fulfill them yeah yeah and in fact
whilst I've got you because I don't get to talk to many big lore people yeah well
what do you think is gonna go on with Elenius Pius then do you think he is
going to be there? Oh it's a good question because... He's nice I guess I mean to be
honest I'm not I gotta be honest I'm not as invested in him as a character as
Loken I'm like oh he's cool but Loken is the one I care about. I don't think anyone is I don't think anybody really loves the Argonauts as much as Dan Abnett but I like the end of the death volume one there's just so much like I don't know name dropping I don't know what you call it but you can't not be
invested and it's the only place I can see it going also there's a very there's a
bit where they talk there's so much stuff where it's like why would they say
this unless he is gonna be there so they talk about how his dagger in the hands
of a perpetual is one of the only things that can actually harm Horus at his
current power level and it's like that's an interesting thing just to drop there
Dan. The thing is like the way you're phrasing it as well of like all these
big characters being in the throne room I'm just imagining like the Emperor
walking in and it's like Horus kills Loken and then he kills Elanius and then
he kills mother Teresa and it just keeps going and going and going he's like
what are all these people doing here? He just overdoes it with like and then he
kills the Krispy Kreme person. No don't kill all these people. It would be knowing how Dan Abnett writes as well it'll be
something where it fulfills an already existing idea like a myth has been
espousing so it like you said Dan Abnett likes to write and almost retell a lot
of myth and mythology in his work so I imagine something along that line.
It's the only character he can do it with. There might be I don't know if
Elanius Pius will give up his perpetual nature maybe to save the
character or something or obviously I don't think he'll make it. What like with Malkador?
Yeah I don't think he'll make it I think he might do it to you know in the
final fight to help the Emperor but I reckon obviously Malkador does it just
to basically keep the Emperor awake he's like ah you know the Emperor is not awake
and then Malkador will do it as like a last bit just to give him a little bit
of a you know wake up bro you know it's it's Chicago wake up. I mean like you
know how Magnus sorry Malkador was brought back to life I've forgotten her name but
the other perpetual lady that the Emperor made. Yeah yeah like it could be something like that
maybe the Emperor does die and on because it's so interesting because
oh clearly hates the Emperor he stabbed him so like it would that would be an
interesting twist if the Emperor does kind of die. I think all the perpetuals
will die by the end of there's no there's no place for them in the 40k
timeline but yeah and I'll say maybe like one you know what was also really weird
sorry massive tangent go for it really weird you know how when Erebus kills
Urda right so Erebus is an amazing scene fantastic scene and when she splits into
three people fights four grey demons awesome but then he kills her but he
kills her with an Athene, an Athene dagger. Yeah. The kill's Horus but the thing is we have that
entire unremembered Empire story and we have so much discussion on the Fulgwraite
dagger and Fulgwraite if you're not familiar Fulgwraite is a material that's
made from like when the lightning of the Emperor strikes sand or something like
that and it's a powerful enough knife in the hands of certain people it can kill
permanently kill perpetuals and but like so that's there's a lot of the reason I
say that is because there's a lot of story behind that which then ends up
with the sanity of Vulcan returning but is there any way in the law that it
actually says an Athene dagger can kill a perpetual because that seemed very
much implies that that's Urda dead dead but like does that kill a perpetual? It can kill a Primarch.
Yeah I mean there's that short story of like the perspective of the Athene dagger or the sword where it's like first
found by a human in like a barbaric civilization and it's like it's weird
it's like a weird short story of like what does the anatheme think about all
this like here's a story whereas like yeah like if you made a dagger from the
lightning from when the Emperor like accidentally missed a target from his
lightning bolts like fair enough it's powerful but like yeah I would think the
Athene is way more powerful and that it can like tear holes through space and
it's like a primordial kind of thing I'm not sure it's meant to be as like
That being said though Gilman got stabbed by one and his response was just to go
no!
Also I don't know if it's primordial isn't it?
Xenotech.
The anatheme is the Fulgurite is made from it's made from when the Emperor and exited the warp isn't it?
Lightning that's true.
I think it's a bit where they talk about like his lightning striking sandal or something like that
because it's like glass.
It's like a fermented lightning bolt from the Emperor's essence like oh it just happened to like form by accident once it's fun.
Sorry I never get to ask people these questions so they're just gonna come out from time to time.
Go for it, go for it.
Send them.
But I suppose we'll continue where we left off with basically the events of the Talon of Horus so
Fabius succeeds in cloning the Warmaster himself and at this point in time
Abaddon has been found by I believe it's Falcus Kaiba a former captain of the Sons of Horus.
He's gone to he's assembled like a few other like members of different legions.
What's the thousand sun called that he gets?
He's called Kaon.
So he gets him and some other people and they like make a weird rogues gallery of like
we're all from broken legions that used to be like at least somewhat competent.
Let's go on a quest to find Abaddon so they go and find Abaddon and one thing I find interesting about Abaddon in that book is like
they go to the vengeful spirit it's just him and he's all like take a look at my gallery of stuff and he's got these things like
he's killed a big dragon thing and he's got all these like I found this on a weird planet full of
Moomins oh you've been busy with your hobbies and this is kind of is a weird and it's an interesting thing to give some
character where he was just like I had no purpose so I went out and I just kind of had like a gap year in space
and he found all these artifacts needed all this stuff and they're like uh so we're getting a bit kind of fed up with being you know
teased by the word bearers who are still a full legion and you know the emperor's children harassing us.
We want to be a proper legion again and you're the only one who can really like rally everyone together because you're the first captain.
We want to kill the emperor as much as you do we want to break the imperium we want to we want to we want to make a new legion and Abaddon's like I don't know.
They're like oh did you hear um you know the emperor's children stole Horus's body and he's like huh yeah they're going to like do something with it oh no no no no we can't have that so
you can't attempt Abaddon with some closure with his father and they storm the emperor's children bastion.
I can't remember what the world is called off the top of my head.
Oh I know what you're talking about it's um it's something like it's like an E I it's like not M prize it's like M something but it's like it's still their current base even in the 40k timeline as well.
Like um Izalon has a little base on it now.
Yeah yeah uh we can't remember what it is exactly but they go to like their their their headquarters and Ezekiel basically storms Fabius's lab Fabius does a little hide under a table and presses a button and then the the kind of gestation pod where Horus's clone has been kept is released and um.
Horus has a quick chat with Abaddon and he's all like ah my son and I think also they find the Talon of Horus in this room if I'm not mistaken because that's what uh Fabius uses the blood from it to or something I think he uses the blood from the Talon to clone Sanguinus and he also clones Horus and it's just there in like a like a capsule and it said like there's a presence to it um.
I think he already had the Talon of Horus I know because the because the or does he have it on the the ventral spirit because I think that the clone identity the so the clone comes out and spews the shit out of everybody because he's got world breaker which is the mace that the emperor made for Horus and so I think when he sees Abaddon has the Talon I think that's what kind of oh yeah he's like that's mine and then uh then Abaddon I think he like grabs the world breaker in his claw and just breaks it stabs Horus through the chest with the Talon goes nah mate it's
mine now and then he's all like oh cool this thing is like wounded the emperor now it's technically killed two Primarchs that's cool um.
Which should probably slightly mention the cloning of when we say Fabius Barl cloned all the Primarchs they weren't quite right like a lot of them so they weren't perfect and even this clone of Horus you're probably thinking how does a just a normal space marine clap a Primarch
it it's implied that it's kind of Horus's like Primarch body but the Primarchs generally have like something special when into their creation which is possibly like warp entities so Horus's like soul is not in this clone so he's not got like a Primarch aura and he's not as like strong but he's still a monster.
There's actually for something similar to this so in Fabius Barl's trilogy when there's a bit where these demonets are talking about um the clone of Fulgrim and so like the clone of Fulgrim is thought to be a perfect clone because it supposedly does have a bit of the soul
that is exactly how it's like this the soul is really important 40k but weirdly you still get the memories so that's why the clone of Abbot the clone of Horus as he dies he's like my son and Abbot says I'm your son of yours or something and um so yeah you still get the memories but you won't have like all the power.
There's a bit yeah it's said that the emperor stole the fire of the Chaos Gods and put that into the Primarchs whatever that means is up to you to decide. Yeah it's like what if we got the War Master from Wish.com it's like it's not the same it's not the original it's not what we want.
The War Master from Target.
I like the idea of like Avedon's like I want War Master we have War Master at home and it's Avedon. You know what is actually really interesting as well is that the emperor also says to Conrad Körner that he said um he says none of you will be on redemption which one would assume and I'll just clarify you could say it's not the emperor but I believe in my heart.
Oh the meat the meat puppet he's been talking about.
Yeah which implies that he does say he does say that he could fix he says to Malkuthol that he could fix Ferris Manus after Ferris Manus has died but Horus is kind of the special case because of course Horus in theory has no soul except for the bits of the soul that the Chaos Gods in theory still have and in fact Avedon does when he's in the warp one time.
He does see the soul of Horus bits of the soul forever fighting because Horus fought for like thousands of years for the Chaos Gods like crazy.
Yeah and there is the whole like tangent of when Fabius cloned Fulgrim it was implied that he might redeem the emperor's children somehow is like a new and naive but also you know not corrupted Phoenicia is like and then comes Trezin and now he's in a box like oh I put him in you know what's in the Pokemon storage box is like Fulgrim is in one of those never to be seen again.
Which is a shame but either way to return to Alan and Horus stuff so at this point Horus's clone is dead there's no chance for Fabius to make some new Primarchs I believe Avedon's men destroy all the baby like gestation pod Primarchs that are growing I think there's like a if I'm remembering correctly there's like a bit where there's like a little baby one like putting his hand against the glass and they're just like burn it.
Oh dear so there's no more Primarchs coming back that aren't OGs at this point unless you count Ferus's Legion of the Damned but that's a tangent.
But either way Avedon then goes OK I have the Talon of Horus this is my signifier that I have assumed the mantle of what my father couldn't finish I am now going to be the War Master of Chaos Undivided and he he already has the sons of Horus they've completely
bested the Emperor's children who start running away and doing cocaine or whatever they do.
Basically Avedon goes we're not going to be the sons of Horus anymore they were failures they were a relic of my father's glory we're going to build something new and something better so he now creates the Black Legion.
Now the Black Legion is not a successor of the sons of Horus even though it comprises a lot of the original sons of Horus members this is a brand new Legion that is basically intended to fight the long war against the Imperium.
Avedon will use this Legion as a cudgel to facilitate his Black Crusades across the galaxy all with an objective in mind to fulfill his own goals and anyone who is a traitor can join the Black Legion it's not just sons of Horus 16th Legion Astartes
you're a wild eater who doesn't like Angron you can join you're a thousand son who isn't cringe you can join you're an Emperor's children who can you know put down the needles for a few seconds you can join you know there's there are an equal opportunity Legion.
Even Renegades from the modern timeline can join the Black Legion.
Isn't that like a bit where where Huron Blackheart mentions about like is Avedon mentions like you could join the Black Legion but you have to do as I say and Huron's like I don't want to do that but it's like he gives people opportunities but he's also a bit like you're not stabbing me in the back you're doing exactly as I tell you.
No naughty pirate man during andorax I think it is there's a really funny bit where I think Huron is trying to get Avedon to commit like himself to this like area of the war and Avaspond says like yeah but you just want me to go down and fight because you're hoping I will die and then you can assume control of the Black Legion and then Huron just responds like I mean yeah.
With like a big smile on his face yeah you know I've got to try why not.
Did you miss the part we're all part of chaos that's kind of our thing.
Yeah and I'm a pirate little thing to tip you off.
Especially like he pokes his belly a few times like oh what are you gonna do like.
Nearly got ya.
Um.
By the way.
Sail the seas.
Before we get on to the next bit I've got another quote uh Hal would you be up for reading this one with your.
Already.
A dulcet tones with my side chat now with my terrible flubbing we'll see how well this goes first time.
Love a love a love dub there you go.
This Imperium is ours we fought for it we built it with blood and sweat and wrath.
We forged it with the world we took the Empire is built upon foundations of our brothers bones.
We didn't rebel out of petty spite.
Sigismund oh that's not part of the quote.
We rebelled because our lord and master played us false.
We were useful tools to bring the galaxy to heel.
But he would have cleansed us from the Imperium the way he purged the Thunder Legion before us.
Wiping us all from history like excrement from his golden boots.
Oh yeah.
Savage so yeah not a fan of the original legions anymore at all.
Very much the epitome of jaded you look up jaded in the dictionary there's a picture of Abaddon right there.
Do you think you would have actually killed all the legions?
Yes there was a plan and Malkador actually there's a short story where he is it short story
novella where he like confesses it to a dying I think remembrance or maybe and he just says
yeah there basically was a plan to like get rid of all the like quite a few of the space marines
where like that wouldn't fit in you know yeah I think I think there's like there's a delineation
to be like the ultramarines are probably quite okay because they're like sane but the world eaters
nah we're getting well I would say like some of them yeah definitely though is like you should
go but like like you say the ultramarines imperial fist like I mean they're not they're not in threat
not threatening anyone he talks about like a retirement with the emperor and then the
the prime marks and he's like yeah yeah we're all like you know we'll enjoy the galaxy together
those those that could enjoy it they're basically into those who weren't angry on people I mean
again like listening to the echoes of eternity book it's really interesting when they go into
like the blood angels and how in the bowels of the the the headquarters they're at or their ship
there's just like so and so made a nice uh artistic depiction of one of his uh one of his battle
brothers or like saying a poem in front of a applauding theater of his brothers in like a toga
and then there's another one he did a statue and then zef on just playing sad music on a piano and
you're like oh they would have been fine they would have done art no blood angels the nightlords do
art yeah and this is just people yeah on that lovely night um so we're on the last uh last
section just talking about what they're what are they doing now so the black legion um they allow
there's some interesting things about them for example uh because they aren't uh they aren't
followers of one chaos god originally when they were um getting their getting the hang of things
there used to be this thing where like if you were an astartes and you followed cinch and then all
of a sudden you went now cinch is a nerd i'm gonna follow corn your body would just die because you
would betray your patron so they kind of found a workaround where if they use the legion's
sorcerer librarians now you can kind of uh pick and choose which patron you want if you want to
go full on say nurgle and then you know i don't like his gifts now i want to be slaneshi and it
doesn't have a death penalty anymore i thought that was quite an interesting weird tidbit um
they completely got rid of all their old iconography at least the sons of horus
and uh and basically they all wear black and gold but there are still things like you see world eaters
with the cool like pointy helmets and you see the thousand suns with the the weird uh like kind of
scarab stuff but for the most part they get rid of all their old heraldry and they go nope we are
we are the black legion we keep it simple we keep it stylish we keep it we keep it chic
there's another thing uh much like the mourner val in the sons of horus there is the ezekarion
which is the inner circle of the black legion this is formed of the word bearer sargon eragesh
the thousand suns members iskandorkion and ashokai zezra zezra ma there we go uh the emperor's
children telemakon lyris the world eater leorine ukris iron warrior valakir hain death god ilaester
faliak all and dark angel vortigen sons of horus and muriel enka dark mechanic and mistress
saraxia and prophetess mariana so there's a whole spread of people advising uh as abaddon and his
various uh campaigns and black crusades they uh have on many occasions allied with other war bands
and even demon primarchs in order to have joint cooperate like not as a friendship thing where
we want to do the same thing you give me this i'll give you that and then we'll part ways amicably
um obviously the most um most uh infamous i should say of all the black crusades that happened was
the 13th black crusade where abaddon destroyed kadia i cry every morning when i wake up because
of this fact um and and through its destruction after after i've done my my little cry into my
jar of tears um i remember because of the the the event the fallout from kadia's destruction was
the great rift would spill forth across the galaxy cutting it in twain uh this is also supposedly
fulfilling the crimson path to allow for the suffocation of the throne world by the never
ending expanse of the eye of terror until it subsumes all the galaxy in the warp um there's
a really cool visual uh reference to this in the new 10th edition trailer where you see like the
great rift and there's a shot where it just kind of absorbs a planet into the into its embraces
embrace and it's pretty cool just seeing how vast it is and um the most recent thing they've been
doing is uh abaddon has been allying with vashtor the archethane by harrying the imperium in the
arcs of omen campaign which is the most recent book as time of recording or book series and that's
more or less the black legion unless uh ed have you got anything else you wanted to add to uh
i have a couple of uh just thoughts in general about the legion and abaddon
um and life in general make sure you have your vitamins boys and girls
but um abaddon himself even though we like have talked him up quite a bit we have to unfortunately
he said that gw do kind of treat him like a punching bag a little bit in the lore so
you might wonder why he's not as loved it's because a lot of the times he's just
big bad who then will uh teleport away at the last minute unfortunately a couple of times but
and i'll say that abaddon is not incompetent he's a very good warrior but then in my opinion he's
kind of the reason he the chaos allow him to be war masters because he's the perfect puppet for them
where horus like almost destroyed like you know it's the joke where like it took abaddon 13 black
crusades and it took horus like what seven years but abaddon is perfect because the war and the
state of the imperium is exactly how the chaos gods i think want it where it's anarchy they don't
really want abaddon to win even though he's like black legion and the forces of chaos are
you know enormous you know hundreds of thousands and thousands of like space chaos space marines
like attacking imperial space and corrupting worlds they don't really want it to win because
in like a lot their power is drawn from the misery and emotions of humanity so abaddon's like the
perfect attack dog where he's just good enough to like i guess you know destroy kadia to also
kadia took a lot like took basically the forces of chaos to destroy one world so the imperium are not
like um on the brink yeah they're not on the brink of destruction the imperium it's just they can't
be everywhere at once and abaddon's perfect where he's just he's enough to like cause
you literally chaos and catastrophe but he's not he's not of the primark level genius where he will
end yeah end the imperium in one go he's the perfect thing to keep the car in the imperium
because then we've got the end times for 40k and that would be dreadful yeah agreed i can't stress
enough how much i disagree with those statements uh oh no you know but no that's fair because i
think the problem is abaddon gets mean to death so these things become like canon lore the zeitgeist
like for example this idea that the chaos gods don't want the imperium to fall i don't think
that's true so the the the law from gw is pretty clear and that the chaos gods want to claim every
every realm every single thing has to be pure ruin and the idea that you won't have disease and
pestilence and uh you know pleasure and if the galaxy falls into ruin that's actually
i don't think that's clear at all so that's what i proper an idea um because of the great game
each one of the chaos gods wants to be the winner so essentially what they're doing is min-maxing
until they get the perfect victory and so they're not going to just win straight away they're going
to be like no i want a perfect you know perfect prestige cinch victory so i have to make sure
all my lines across to my t-sit site yeah we can't just instantly win we have to make sure
that it's my win and i have to make sure that abaddon's doing what i want to do so every time
he does something that the other gods want to do i need to push him in the direction of what i want
and so it's like postponing the end of the great game but also trying to tailor it to their own
favor i also i do have to say i do kind of think he's i like the idea of him like saying that he
uses chaos as a tool but i ultimately think he's foolish to think that he's the one in control i
think he i think the chaos gods are like they're like stepped back a little bit but they very much
could at any point go chaos spawn like they could do what they want so what the chaos gods are not
of infinite power so they they can't necessarily just go chaos sport these things are not like
eagerly defined so one of the things that when we actually look at the lore that we have like the
idea that abaddon is not a kind of control and it's he can never be controlled perfectly valid
theory it's not actually necessarily true so like i say the biggest retcon we've ever had to 40k
is the horus lupical is not some puppet of the chaos gods or as lupical is very much in control
of the chaos gods and they are trying to elevate him to be a chaos god above them it's it's a
phenomenon so the idea this is an impossibility i don't actually buy it's perfectly valid theory
but doesn't make sense i mean when we talk about abaddon failing for 30 black crusades it always
surprises me when people say this because this is talked about many times in the law that abaddon had
specific goals with each black crusade each black crusade also makes the black legion more powerful
comparing abaddon to horus is not really fair because horus planet like nine legions to start
with like it's just it's just a completely different comparison and the the thing that
abaddon is very adamant on is that horus was a fool because horus is basically kind of like a
demon prince by the end of the horus heresies probably the easiest way to live in it the reason
that's a terrible idea is because just as we see with all of the demon primarchs the reason the
demon primarchs haven't done much over the last last 10 000 years is because it's very hard to
bring them into real space and they also don't really care you lose interest in reality when
you are all of a sudden based in real space and so abaddon cannot fully accept all of these gifts
of chaos and so he has to he has to stay mortal and because that's the only way you can get be
the only way you can get a true victory horus would never have gotten a true victory even if
terror had fallen so abaddon is actually far more aggressive with what he's had to work with and
within the context of the setting that is what i think generally what characters think of him
we need to put you on a versus video for abaddon because man can argue for that that's very
convincing there was a it was a fan story so it's not canon but i thought it was very well like short
little written story uh that says like abaddon could have like at least you know with the little
fan story and it's like abaddon could have sure the first black crusade could have crippled the
imperium but there were six living prime arcs if he were just still right back from the get-go
let's start horus round two forces were scattered it was the 13th he was building up over the course
of 13 crusades to properly get his forces together build them up more so than they were in the
shattered remnants after the heresy he also he also in terms of like you know the crimson path
it's not something that is so that the great rift is not achieved with i would say it's not
officially declared it's because of the fall of kadia although most people reasonably assume it is
the largest contributing factor however what they talk about in my balisarius called the great work
is that the kadia is not the only kadia there are many planets that are like kadia that have this
shit ton of blackstone on and oh what do you know it turns out during many of the black crusades
as a side quest abaddon went and destroyed these worlds abaddon had specific goals the first one
of course we have the tower of silence where abaddon gets dracnian a weapon that he needs
because he because this weapon has this demon has said it will one day be the death of the emperor
so each of the black crusades has a specific goal in mind and he does them over time and
it what we'll totally say is that the problem with black life we have with advancing the story as
they do now is that now it does it will start to make abaddon look weak because like where we've
got it now is that um abaddon got epimetheus he got dracnian he just he got the great rift he's
got he basically could get vigilance if he wanted to he's got all of these things he's got the arc
of omen and vashtor and they've got this key and now they can like make their own web way whatever
the fuck it is they're going to do at a certain point we will all get to the stage where we're
like sorry why isn't abaddon a terror like what else does he what else could he possibly need
and um it's going to start looking weird because i think narratively we're going to get to this
point where it's like abaddon's just like this gatherer of stuff and it's like he's just got
so many artifacts and so much power but i mean what is the point you you mentioned my boy epiphemius
so i have to yeah i have to mention him the poor guy he he was a dark angel who was like he was in
a black shield company in the horus heresy he was a knight errant during the horus heresy he got
trapped in like a tomb for 10 000 years and came back during the pandrax campaign he got captured
by abaddon so abaddon stuck him in the vengeful spirit then he he ripped his black carapace from
his skin he sewed his his mouth and his eyes shut he cut out his tongue he he had fabius
bile remove his progenoid gland then he like suspended him from the ceiling then he stitched
two uh blanks to his body because he's a librarian he stitched two like like blanks to his body
and then left him there to be tortured it's like oh that sucks like you don't want to be messing
with abaddon like that if that's what he does to just like someone he needs information out like
i do not want to be involved with him he is very scary it's very dark it is also the unfortunate
reality of 40k is that you know something that when you mostly focus on the narrative is not
something you really like to talk about but you kind of need to acknowledge it is that it is a
war game setting and that if abaddon follows the narrative course that like it would probably make
sense for him to eventually do it if he succeeds there's no more war game yeah exactly you cannot
like it's like how no faction can ultimately succeed because then you don't have a war game
anymore yeah they need that's the thing they need to narratively come up with a way because this is
the thing like the 30 black crusades i can rationalize like you know i'm an abaddon
synth but i can rationalize why the 13 black crusades are not complete failures and why abaddon
is not this massive failure is a lot of people believe and i get it trust me but like there's
only so much he can be that full that where he doesn't for reasons he won't get to terror
someone someone else needs to get thrown a bone yeah why they can fight them because he's just
been hoarding to be fair though because there are so many factions there's always the fact of
everyone's scan uh plans get scuppered by everyone else's plans and they overlap it's like like the
leagues of votan park a massive ship in the way move that out of the way like sorry what we're
just mining a planet you stupid squats and then what did you call me and then that starts a new
book series and then they get eaten by the the tyranids and then the necrons are like i'm trying
to build an apartment block for my future like metal children you're in the way and then that
starts a new book series and then gilliam and goes what's going on here and then the lion goes
gilliam and you've been sleeping with the elder and that starts anew and it's like it keeps going
and going and going yeah i mean definitely there was no reason the necrons aren't going to win
like there was just like the silent king is so absurdly powerful in the books that there's no
reason he won't just turn off all life like it's in their neck there's the the tyranids of course
definitely should win when they get the chaos of course is gonna make the crudging path but like
it's monster monstrous there's a real good reason and it's a very green reason
yeah the necrons can it's an orange galaxy we're all just living in it yeah but the necrons have
cyber Alzheimer's so they're not as big of a threat they're like i can't remember where i am
it's like go back in your tomb it's fine i does say as well about the black legion um so if you're
like kind of newish to warhammer or you know a little bit about it um lore wise as well they're
considered one of the most competent chaos space marine legions like a lot of them are either like
for the last 10 000 years been on the run in a way or like the undersupplied or the nightlords
these are the biggest guys in the setting they have the most stuff they have the most men
and they work together and they have lots of people from different legions bolstering their
weaknesses so that helps they also um like i even said like they they being like chaos undivided
is generally kind of a slight blessing because you're a little bit you're less affected by
in a way the specific god's corruption like if you're corrupted by a nulg you you know you're
slow you'll kind of only focus on spreading plague whereas like chaos undivided it's more of like an
actual power boon so that the chaos the black legion themselves like they can often complete
missions and then destroy worlds like much quicker with like less men because they can still function
much more like actual space marines rather than like a like i imagine a single like death
guard marine is probably more powerful but in terms of like overall the war like the actual
war going on a black legion are much more competent well it's like you can you can kind of
double dip with it like say you're a sorcerer in the black legion like all name character business
aside that given a random sorcerer from the black legion is pretty much guaranteed not going to be
as good at it as a thousand sons is but that black legionnaire is also going to be a lot more
durable you can arm wrestle a lot better like you know you can kind of double dip from all the chaos
gods you're not limited to just one imagine a uh a black legion form a thousand son who embraces
corn then you go like what's that like oh that's fun idea or like a death guard who becomes laneshi
like whoa that's crazy and i mentioned like the sort the chaos sorcerers in the black legion like
allow them to essentially respect their character traits when they're like i follow corn now now i'm
a fan of scenes like could you stop doing this no i'm playing around i'm experimenting okay fine
i'll finish on one idea i do have which i think will be interesting which is obviously the chaos
primarchs are and obviously no you know original primarchs you know loyalist ones are returning
over like the many additions i have a feeling like it would be a really good idea to have
when law guard returns there's a kind of chaos civil war for the role of war master
and the idea of it being like there are those who are like the black legion where they don't want
to serve a primarch but then there are like people who generally like serving chaos themselves they're
like ah law guard isn't a demon ascended primarch the word bearers are the only legion that isn't
the black legion that is like still in full strength and that would make sense like is the
only og legion of the traitors that is still like running um like the nightlords don't count
because they're too small but you know i so i've got a thing where i hope it will be like a abaddon
versus um law guard in a way where it's like it's more of a cold war rather than a um like hot war
where like essentially there's a they're vying for that position of you know chosen by chaos too
and it'll make it it'll make it interesting i'm just imagining like abaddon kind of baiting the
dark angels to fight the word bears like keep going come on come on and dark angels like i'm
gonna leave you now throw a couple of bones just ambush them it'll be a really good way to make i
think in a way you could give abaddon like that much needed like i guess victory if you know i
mean where it's like abaddon's always fighting but it's it's all about the imperium just holds if
you know i mean or if like he does win it's like just by the like even kadia if like it was just
by the the very last like act if you know i mean i think or even if if perturabo allies with
vashtor and then they clashed with abaddon and then you could like you could dredge up some of
the history he had during the siege of terror with perturabo using him and him going i think
that chaos is cringe inherently so i am chaos undivided but i'm not really chaos undivided
he's like you're half in half out just like horus what did you say and then they can have a scrap
and then illumin and the lion are just looking confused like what are they doing now it could
be it could be a good opportunity to like give abaddon and the black legion some character
development in the sense where the black legion are very cool but a lot of them seem quite
because it's almost like the ultramanians where they are cool but a lot of it seem
very generic if you know i mean where there's not as much flavor to them until you really
break it no no but you know like they're treated like that rather than what so actually one of the
reasons like to your last three points actually very similar to that where and even what the
ezekari on so one of the reasons i love the ezekari is because they go the other way i think they are
they're so characterful to the degree that like you know you talk about a thousand sons or a
thousand sons character who worships korn like all like there are characters like the demonifuge
and these characters within 40k that do the opposite of what they're supposed to do
and all the ezekarion kind of do this right so like iskander k-on is you know you talk about
powerful sorcerers he is in aramans trilogy also and he is sent to the second tomb araman he's
that powerful he brings magnus the red to his knees like that's how strong and i assume it
will be through kind of a sneaky way like learning his true name or something like that but still
very impressive feat and like then you have a leo binoculars who is a havoc he's got a he's got a
heavy boulder like if you've ever seen the world eaters range if you're a fan of the tables up
you'll notice they don't have many guns like he's a good contradiction and by definition
telamakon is a swordsman but he spends the majority of all the half the first book kind
of being humiliated and being you know made to look an absolute fool by iskander so they're
all kind of contradictions in terms and that's one of the things i think adds a lot of a lot of
character i think yeah the the the thing in the novels i think they have a lot more character
on the surface oh definitely yeah they didn't have it and the ultramen have really liked that
like the ultramen have so much character in your read like you have destroyer squads inheriting
you have nice from the crag you have um katos and kairos the after yurio ventress as well is genuinely
really interesting yurio ventress is like again like so like the opposite of an ultra ultra
mission big he gets kind of heavily punished and has to go on a big fucking quest and it's
dark as hell but like and then it becomes a legion of the dams like yeah the black legion do that
very well i think um one of the other things you mentioned oh yeah lorgar so um one of the things
really interesting mention i think for people listening who wants to know about the black
legion so abaddon has met with all of the demon primarchs and all of them have sworn to him and
again this is one of the reasons this goes back to like why abaddon is so important compared to
someone like chorus the chaos gods don't the chaos demon primarchs a lot of them don't really have a
choice because if their patron supports abaddon they kind of have to but they still have a bit
of independence and they all kind of agree to support abaddon in the end so um you know per
drabo originally he doesn't want to he's like abaddon or it is first captain he calls him an
angry whelp i remember from um yeah uh lord of silence no the one where they take on the white
consoles what's that book called is it laws of silence yeah his lord of silence um and yeah but
then he wins him round leaves him like a powerful artifact that he was always wanted a special
present and he does meet lorgar lorgar actually is one of the only demon primarchs who's very
happy to serve abaddon because he's just like loves chaos and abaddon spreading chaos um per drabo
gives him a lot of demon engines that's where the demon engines come from most of them is from
perturabo gifting them to abaddon to the degree that what the reason mortarion ends up getting
like the plague burst crawler is because abaddon then i think i think is either that the play was
for another one where he actually gives it to mortarion um with in terms of being a competent
so it's said that abaddon fights all of uh uh angron's demonic champions and if you've read um
emperor's chosen whatever the one with the gray knights versus space horses um like abaddon has
12 bloodthirsters so abaddon takes on 12 bloodthirsters and wins like it's it's yeah and
you're missing yeah magnus we've already spoken about and fulgur and this is one of those things
where black library authors mention things in like slight passages and then never bring up again it's
said that abaddon gifts fulgrim a vessel that allows him to create an avatar of slanesh and
then this is just never mentioned and so uh yeah he kind of brings them all around over time so
like yeah they're all happy to serve him and in theory that we actually know who abaddon's dad is
now but there was always a theory that abaddon was horus's kind of cloned son and one of the
reasons that is of course his size but the other thing is he is phenomenally charismatic and that's
something that like huron blackheart doesn't have who's often the person that people tell us
maybe take abaddon's place and if you've read the latest um huron blackheart novel you'll know
huron blackheart barely has control of the red corsets and um yeah it doesn't go too well
i still want him to clown on lorg are they yeah i would yeah because the black legion do have that
uh best of both worlds uh you know chaos is my weapon but then i'm not as as directly linked
i like the idea of like you know how like gilliam and has kind of been besieged on all sides where
it's like there's the tyranids there's the god blight series there was magnus being involved
blah blah so to have abaddon surrounded where it's like you're fighting the ultramarines and
the dark angels and lorg are's men and perdra like if there was just like a bit where the the the
the french alliances he forged were just breaking down and he has the biggest of all the war bands
but he has he's surrounded like it would give the black legion a chance to actually have some
really cool stories without progressing their war against the imperium and it's again that whole
all the overlapping factions getting at each other's throats makes it prologue yeah like
supposedly they besiege comorah like that could be such a long series of books at some point but
they definitely need to sorry we talked about earlier how it's all because i think you're
totally right they need to properly make it clear if abaddon can take on a primarch so certainly to
begin with it was never the greatest source he's never the greatest warrior although he was very
very good but certainly not the swordsman of someone like siegismund then we know he gets
dragged me in which is just an op weapon it's stupidly powerful and he gets loads and loads
of gifts from chaos and to this degree i've had to talk to collin about it in the day one thing that
is quite significant is when he fights manias cowlgar but the reason that's significant because
if you are someone who's used the war hunger 40k manias cowlgar used to be like the imperium he
used to be the the poster boy of the poster boys he was everywhere there's some very controversial
statements about him the main one being that he was sent to be the leech lord of the spiritual
leech yes and yeah so he and abaddon actually fights it like this it's like 40k was building
up to them fighting in terms of how the models were made and the art was made and all these kind
of things and they do finally fight on vigilance you know the chapter master of the ultramarine
who is a more important character than the prime except the primarch of the ultramarines and not
only does abaddon win which is a very 40k thing the bad guy actually clearly wins he also
menses manias cowlgar up when they actually go through the fight i think cowlgar gets in like
two punches and then abaddon tears him apart and it's not just because of dragon the end like the
talon of horus is um yeah he rips him apart as well with that and uh yeah because in the the talon
of horus it's like it imbues an aura of like because it's because it's wounded the emperor
it's like a special weapon where it's like there's something about it that's eerie and malevolent
and it's yeah talon of horus is bad yeah i need to i think we need to see abaddon
um and the black legion themselves like in part like fight like what it would be the word bearer
is um just just to finish it off like the word bearer is like complete fanatical devotion to
chaos just to show them like how they are like the contrast between what is like yeah i want
abaddon to kill core pharaoh and he's like i'm the only one left now all the first captains are
dead i'm the one left hooray i think it does seem like the dawn of fire series is kind of leading
up to a big word word bearers kind of return because um yeah like they are kind of they think
books are kind of separate but they're a consistent villain in a lot of them like behind the scenes
type thing yeah we need like we just need more novels in general for a lot of these characters
because the black legion ones are pretty pretty good and they have much more um like a lot of
the chaos stories uh often like ah like it's how the gods corrupt them but the black legion one is
just like they know they're the bad guys but they do behave like actual space marines and they have
like brotherhood and stuff like that so if you do uh i'm a sucker for that if you're uh if you do like
those listening if you do like um that level of like brotherhood and stuff like that um yeah just
black legion are for you uh does anyone have any like closing thoughts or statements they want on
the black legion i guess uh uh on the black legion in a whole uh i very much enjoyed the trend of them
being the fodder in warhammer games i know i do i do apologize uh and uh uh the bolt gun man
melham kato just slinging around plasma blast and blow them to hell very fun i do have a lot of
sympathy for them because they obviously being the bad guys as they are they obviously have to lose
most of the time but it's it's a genuine writing challenge and i assume it's something that
i always wonder what these conversations look like but around the the table as it were when
black loran pre-talk they must have these conversations of how do we have the black legion
of the black legion not win again but not look shit yeah be the most intimidating legion but then
their victories are like upcadia yeah yeah but with so with with that being said though you know i
hope i'll extend the olive branch with the with the next half of what i was going to say uh i know
i'm i inhabit the sillier side of making warhammer content uh and will continue to make fun of
abaddon in the black league but that being said uh if anyone if you play tabletop and you know
you're on chaos and everyone anyone goes like you know makes fun just makes fun abaddon in general
just play him on the tabletop and they will stop laughing very quickly because he is a blender
uh i don't believe you know my thing my thing is as it is with everything which is just
just read the books over reading the memes if you can or watch our videos
or watch videos because i think these things get so so spun out like you know like the 13
back crusades is probably one of the best examples because it's you know it's explained multiple
times why there are 13 back crusades why they work or failures but still if you go up to
an ngw store and you say it's happened a big thing but oh my god yes and it's like no the book well
i will say as someone who is now in a store the horus heresy books and it's almost done the siege
of terror books and some other ones talent of horus is still one of my favorite of all the books
at least the audio books so i would say there's only two of the black legion books i think talent
of horus and then it's called black legion like they're just a really interesting change of pace
where it's you know it's a chaos story but it's not moustached world in chaos per se it's more
you get to understand the motivations of abaddon and his crew and it's a and it's a really really
interesting uh read or listen so go and check out at least the talent of horus it's really good
with uh okay at the at the very least acknowledge when someone is making a joke it's a joke
don't take it as gospel like for the love of god if you hear me make fun of them i'm on my channel
i am making a joke well hammer is well hammer is funny too like it's it's um caricature as well
at some parts so yeah it is designed to for toy soldiers yeah we're like grown men talking about
plastic toys so and you're listening you're listening to four grown men talk about plastic
toys so who's the real idiot what does that say about you yeah call you out everyone um with that
being said um thank you ed uh thank you so much for joining us um if people are listening to me
simp for abaddon i hope i have served him well i'm sorry i would say compelling compelling arguments
we needed someone to really come and do it uh you know we've got the you know we've never
won four people on the podcast just agreeing with each other right that was that would be
fucking boring if it was just oh no we don't is upgrades guillem and he's so good i love it
that's that you know it's not what you want you want someone to that's what i'm here for
well thank you so much for joining us um if you are listening and you somehow aren't familiar with
his channel it's a sandman of terror he makes really good uh 40k content very um i was say the
word i think poignant in a way that you make um content where like i don't think everyone else is
talking about a lot of the topics that you cover and uh he's got a great channel and you know what
i have this today actually where i do talk about some quite niche things and so like i have i've
had quite a few comments where people are like what fan fiction is this and i'm just like hey
this is real law i didn't just think i'm just making these things up so i have to cite my sources
so i've never probably talked about anything else yeah and um go check his channel out it's good
and hopefully we'll have him on again to like either represent or like attack uh some of the
factions any factions you particularly hate in the moment oh you know i do say elves this is the
thing i can enjoy most most factions um yeah the thing is i'd love my friend i'm a friend of mine
charlie plays elves and i do love to hate on them it's just funny um yeah but there's no one i
really dislike i don't know the second legion we'll go with that yeah okay good choice uh
thank you so much for listening and for watching uh hopefully you enjoyed our little discussion
slash foray into the black legion the kind of poster boys of chaos uh themselves and uh we'll
catch you all hopefully next time again check out uh sandman's channel it's really good and
thank you all for listening peace take care everyone i love you
you