1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:28,400 The codex of studies does not support 2 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,400 these vaults gun! 3 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:54,120 Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of lore crimes! Today we are 4 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:59,280 taking a bit of a chaotic turn as it were and we're going to be talking about 5 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:07,280 the black legion Avedon and his merry little band of... I was gonna be mean and 6 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,520 say failures but the last thing they did was blow up 7 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:18,240 Kadia so I did not complete failures but so the the black legion the poster boys 8 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,560 of the chaos space marines and you know there's a there's quite a bit of 9 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:27,400 information about them so I hope you're all ready to learn before we move on 10 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:31,880 though I'd like to pass over to Hal for the question of the week Hal what do you 11 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:36,280 what do you have for us? Well I've got some stuff that you'll probably be 12 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:42,280 annoyed about some stuff you'll laugh about and just general tomfoolery thank 13 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,240 you Samman for joining us though here to listen to these terrible terrible 14 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:52,040 Warhammer takes! I'm delighted to be here thank you for having me! We appreciate it man 15 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:56,680 we've actually met at Warhammer Fest so it's good to have a little reunion for 16 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:02,840 all the boys here obviously you were towering over us mr. six foot tall yeah 17 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:09,760 well I was talking to Colin about this the other day where I that's like 90% of my 18 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:15,160 confidence is being mildly tall but meeting the war warrior tier guys that 19 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:21,800 was devastating they're giant people! Yo they're so big! They're all so nice as 20 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,640 well! They're like a Terminator statue and we're like they're not far off like they're 21 00:02:25,640 --> 00:02:30,160 almost as tall as the Terminator I actually felt I'm not even that short 22 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:36,380 like I'm 5'11 but like god I felt tiny compared to all these guys oh that felt 23 00:02:36,380 --> 00:02:42,520 drowning easy easy there bud I'm 5'7 yeah easy there well speaking of 24 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:48,880 something easy we have some our question of the week last week was what was your 25 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:55,680 hashtag Imperial truth and there's a few hot takes here starting off by the rude 26 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:01,960 Canadian that's a bit of a paradox there hashtag Imperial truth Goj van dire was 27 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:08,560 secretly a sheba innu with a foot fetish but was redacted by the Inquisition for 28 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:17,080 unknown reasons yeah that's um that's canon it's ridiculous I know I always 29 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:24,400 say doge van dire I can't stop saying it what's up it's sheba innu it's the doge 30 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:36,880 dog oh okay yeah don't mind me old man that means from like 12 years ago well 31 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:44,840 speaking of some old some even older memes here by hashtag Imperial truth by 32 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:50,680 the Wunder another Imperial truth idea the watches on the lion's model are 33 00:03:50,680 --> 00:04:00,720 named milk and cigarettes as the lion returned to his son's oh my man we got 34 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:07,040 the milk and cigs he needed that was classic there's no one here this is 35 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:13,280 straight for Colin here hashtag Imperial truth by neon LF graves we see you as a 36 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:20,960 regular on law crimes appreciate you buddy it's Bretonnia has a middle class 37 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:29,160 oh god I don't acknowledge it Bretonnia hates already started eating the horses 38 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:33,440 or something like where would that be in the scale of you know Bretonnia and life 39 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:40,200 they only have they only get stepped on by the nobleman once a day regularly 40 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:46,560 speaking of us for proponia speaking of getting steps on funny enough the last 41 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:53,640 word here by Samuel hashtag Imperial truth when Horace was stabbed and about 42 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:58,480 to leave this world the lunar walls were not afraid of pushing and even stepping 43 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:04,640 on civilians such was his desperation that they used his sick primal good ball 44 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:14,720 shiny head as a battering rat like some Angra would do if he thought he could get 45 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:19,960 away with it the funny part about that that's actually canon in a way like 46 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:27,360 they were just like move and it's just slatted leave smash it out of here Wow it 47 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,320 makes me think of like there's a reference somewhere in the back of my 48 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,960 head with someone used a head oh it's Toy Story where they have Rex and the 49 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:44,800 like use that's what it is got some fun making this clip oh god well thank you 50 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:50,160 all for your contributions and those are some spicy takes I think I like the the 51 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:57,240 milk and cigarettes one to be honest so for the next question of the week we 52 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:04,360 have Abaddon is launching a new at black crusade but what is his objective 53 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:10,480 hashtag black crusade we want them to be wrong we want them to be funny I mean 54 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:17,040 Eddie make it crazy if you want boys and girls don't obviously try not to have 55 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:24,160 too much foul language but yeah what is the objective what was the mr. Abbey 56 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:30,760 Abbey daddy doing on his silly goose time on the hashtag black crusade we're 57 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,600 not gonna be discussing the Breton in middle class today today we're talking 58 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:40,760 about the black Legion so I'm gonna pass over to Ed mr. the sandman himself and 59 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:47,060 he will be taking us on this little journey shall I say to learn about the 60 00:06:47,060 --> 00:06:52,380 war master the the current war master and the kind of as it earlier like the 61 00:06:52,380 --> 00:06:59,040 poster boys of the setting salmon take it away yeah poster boys of the setting 62 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:04,400 is pretty apt really there are many foes of the Imperium of man and the emperor 63 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:11,940 but we all know that that true enemy is chaos and chaos is greatest asset is the 64 00:07:11,940 --> 00:07:17,160 black Legion and Abaddon in fact it is said that should Abaddon ever side with 65 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:23,120 any of the chaos gods the great game would come to a swift close as the black 66 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:29,040 Legion has plagued the Imperium of man for millennia this vile faction bound to 67 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:33,640 the allied forces of chaos has left a long and bloody trail of carnage and 68 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:39,360 destruction in their wake it's led by Ezekiel Abaddon and they have risen to 69 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:44,120 become one of the Imperium's most formidable adversaries during the 70 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,320 closing days of the Horus heresy a time when the traitor legions having 71 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:53,440 suffered defeat and with their dreams of conquest shattered they made a desperate 72 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:58,960 retreat with Horus's body the betrayal by Horus had caused an irreparable rift 73 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:03,500 within the ranks of the traitors and there was no hope for redemption no 74 00:08:03,500 --> 00:08:08,780 chance of healing old wounds so they retreated into a place where the 75 00:08:08,780 --> 00:08:14,200 loyalist forces could no longer catch them the Eye of Terror among these 76 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:19,680 traitors were the fragmented remnants of the sons of Horus led by the greatest 77 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:24,920 surviving warlord Ezekiel Abaddon but Abaddon quickly left his brothers with 78 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,720 the vengeful spirit their greatest flagship while many of the legions and 79 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,840 their Primarchs succumbed to the temptations and corrupting influence of 80 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:39,920 the Chaos Gods Abaddon resisted despite the madness and excesses of the warp he 81 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:44,240 remained steadfast in his desire for vengeance against the Emperor never 82 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:49,280 forgetting the defeat of Horus and the debt he was owed it was this burning 83 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:53,840 thirst for revenge that sustained Abaddon over the centuries and eventually 84 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:58,760 drove him to rally the traitor legions for war once more after the body of 85 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:04,480 Horus was stolen by the Emperor's children Abaddon returned to his brothers Fabius 86 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:09,800 Bile had made a clone of the deceased war master which Abaddon quickly destroyed 87 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:15,520 and its death the clone even recognized Abaddon and called it and called Abaddon 88 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:23,300 his son but Abaddon replied back that he was no son of Horus out of his 89 00:09:23,300 --> 00:09:28,740 unyielding desire for retribution the black Legion was then born in black and 90 00:09:28,740 --> 00:09:34,080 gold are his brothers remade Abaddon gathered the surviving sons of Horus 91 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,580 and fashioned them into a force that would dominate countless stars within the 92 00:09:38,580 --> 00:09:44,600 eye unlike the other legions Abaddon did not pledge allegiance to any individual 93 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:50,000 god or demon Primarch nor did he abide by any restrictive code or obligation 94 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:56,160 but one by one he sought their allegiance and one by one he got it his 95 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:00,680 sole focus was the annihilation of the Imperium and the completion of Horus's 96 00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:05,080 sinister work but where Horus accepted all of the blessings of the Chaos Gods 97 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:12,480 Abaddon secretly despises chaos but uses it as a tool thus he welcomed any warrior 98 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:18,240 willing to swear loyalty to him and him alone alone in one all the chaos gods 99 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:23,120 alert in the ranks of the black Legion the traitor world the traitor warlords 100 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,320 dressed in their distinctive black and brass armor committed heinous acts in 101 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,400 the name of Abaddon each adding to his blood-soaked tapestry of death and 102 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:36,520 destruction these warlords received the favor of Abaddon and the growing might 103 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:41,080 of the Legion moreover they were granted a place in the black Crusades 104 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:46,960 blights upon the Imperium during these Crusades the forces of chaos led by 105 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:52,160 Abaddon gathered in strength and with each Crusade they grew in power and 106 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:57,680 accomplished Abaddon's nefarious aims these culminated in the 13th Black 107 00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:03,240 Crusade where Cadia itself fell the second strongest planet within the 108 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:11,180 Imperium this of course it's theorized unleashed the great rift which has 109 00:11:11,180 --> 00:11:16,280 been a boon to chaos and unleashed absolute catastrophe across the 110 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:23,040 Imperium so for 10,000 years Abaddon had refined his sinister strategies 111 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:28,600 relentlessly relentlessly pursuing his goals each attack each world destroyed 112 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:33,920 and each army vanquished is but a piece in the grand puzzle of his greater war 113 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:38,680 the black Legion always by his side descends upon burning worlds and 114 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:44,240 shattered cities that's their chainsaws howling and bolters barking heralding 115 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:50,040 the coming end times their actions cast a shadow of doom upon humanity the 116 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,880 gravest threat of the Imperium the greatest the gravest threat that the 117 00:11:53,880 --> 00:12:00,080 Imperium faces resonating from the eye of terror itself wherever the black 118 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:04,680 armored warriors of the black Legion tread cities crumble and Imperial 119 00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:10,080 worlds fall apart star systems are purged disappearing from the void their 120 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:16,200 citizens slaughtered and slaughtered and their histories obliterated I'm gonna 121 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:22,720 pass over to another quick question there did when he became like the poster 122 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:30,360 boy of chaos did his top knot get longer I swear like like Game of Thrones 123 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,800 Khalid, you're not allowed to cut your hair until you fail or something like 124 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:40,640 that but yeah it's an old Chthonian thing so it has got that kind of idea and he is very protective 125 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:45,480 of in the Horus heresy I remember it is just it looks bigger it does look bigger 126 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:50,560 though compared to like his like all the art of him in like the great crusade 127 00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:55,040 like Horus heresy it looks like a reasonable length whereas like his 128 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:59,560 model now is like it's like a little read stick like still like stuck onto 129 00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:06,960 his head with superglue yeah it is hair hell it grows I know but it's long the 130 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:13,600 top knot makes a lot of appearances in the range of 140k like it's not just the 131 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,360 black Legion you've always got like the white scars you got the towel so it's 132 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:22,540 like it's a very popular hairstyle it does beg the question though for ten 133 00:13:22,540 --> 00:13:27,760 thousand years what has Aberdon used to like condition his luscious locks who 134 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:32,680 knows what he found in the Eye of Terror that was the set of Black Crusade he 135 00:13:32,680 --> 00:13:37,920 was for a special kind of conditioner that was on a pleasure world honestly 136 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:42,000 it's not far off I'm pretty sure some of those Black Crusades were just like one 137 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,960 of them was for a sword and then one of them was just for like he had a 138 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:50,480 potential rival and he was like oh wait let me just turn this let me like a 139 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:55,200 little like daddy's and then he went and invaded the hive world of Tiaj Henley to get some 140 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:59,160 moisturizers for his skin like what is going on Aberdon you're being a bit you 141 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:03,640 know like I get self-care is important but you've got other things to be doing 142 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:09,360 right now surely now he's a diva the hair the top knot is cool though but I 143 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,640 just it's absurdly long I'm so sorry like I just I can't help but stare at it 144 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,960 and think is that the height of it like a single man are you length shaming 145 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:25,480 Aberdon how that's not let's not put that out on the internet let's not let's 146 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:30,080 not have that and who has a go about his height now like short shape well length 147 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:45,120 shaving because he's like I'm not as tall as your rendition that reminded me 148 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:50,400 of like with the you know the intro like the Dark Crusade game Dawn of War Dark 149 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:56,880 Crusade and played a door I think a lot of your like content kind of reminds you 150 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,240 of that like I fell in love with Warhammer with that kind of you know 151 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:05,360 like epic narration so I appreciate it 152 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:15,120 the guy's voice he's like really rough a voice but he's like an overarching 153 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:20,320 timeline thing marine scream which is amazing you know in my spare time I've 154 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:25,080 been trying to practice like a space marine voice because like I have like 155 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:30,160 quite a deep voice when I use this microphone but like I could sound 156 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,680 space means a very gruff I can't do that I just want to do what I should most do 157 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:38,320 one space marine voice or prime my voice they're interchangeable I just try to 158 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,360 rip off Jonathan Keeble not jumping people um yes Jonathan Keeble who does 159 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:47,640 yeah yeah I just go like oh he I like his voice I'll just like emulate that as 160 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:53,120 best I can I mean I'm getting you sending a letter in the post like cease 161 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:57,600 and desist imitating Jonathan Keeble compared to like some of the other people 162 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:02,440 in our Warhammer community like some of their voices oh my lord like you know I 163 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,240 thought I thought I had a decent voice as well and then you hear some of these 164 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:10,040 guys and you go Christ like I just sound like a little baby compared to these 165 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:16,440 like giants of voice narration no but that's yeah essentially that's my long 166 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:21,320 weird way of saying Abdon's got a very long top knot I'm wondering how it grew 167 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:28,920 so big if that's all we'd like to interject for now then I can begin the 168 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,880 expert sector section unless anyone else has anything else to offer I would just 169 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:41,760 say that was probably one of the most serious and like well well put intros 170 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:46,400 and like description of the black Legion and Abaddon in particular usually 171 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:52,000 whenever I hear them talk about them they're making fun of them so yeah this 172 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,760 is thing I'm one of the few people that actually likes Abaddon as a character 173 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:01,720 you'll find out why later on I think I've got a list of like I don't know a 174 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:07,400 twenty or so of my favorite facts of the black Legion and Abaddon but I I think 175 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:14,640 a lot of shit sorry can I swear yeah go for it yeah so yeah he's such a no I'm 176 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,400 joking but I actually really like him as a character I think he's phenomenally 177 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:23,600 interesting and I thought I know ADB's writing is his versions of chaos like 178 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,680 some people like it so we would don't I've really like the way he writes chaos 179 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:33,800 and like the nightlaws trilogy as well oh yeah that kind of using a us as a tool 180 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:39,160 idea and the thing is about Abaddon is you would follow him no matter what 181 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:43,280 anybody says about him you would follow Abaddon out of you know I'm not saying 182 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,280 you wouldn't follow a Primark but if you were a if you were on the side of the 183 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:52,000 traitors not by your own choice you would follow Abaddon Abaddon comes up 184 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:57,080 with crazy ideas like hey maybe let's not just kill people because our dad 185 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:02,800 says so and hey maybe we did have a point in terms of siding with the emperor 186 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:08,520 who has like turned on every tool within his arsenal over time maybe that would 187 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:14,680 have been a recipe for disaster and yeah he is he's yeah he's also like one of 188 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,040 only like a couple of first captains still left like this core fair on 189 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:27,120 there's him yeah well yeah there's a lot that they don't like semitar like there's 190 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:30,680 kind of an idea of what happened to him but like a lot of them they haven't 191 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,660 confirmed what happened to them so I guess yeah they I don't know why they've 192 00:18:34,660 --> 00:18:41,720 been so cool you know what happened to Sigismund yeah interesting with that 193 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,600 there's a couple of first captains like Karn still around although he's not 194 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:50,280 exactly too many I thought he got turned into the first captain after everyone 195 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:56,840 else got no he's the he's the primus equity and there's like some canon 196 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,840 conflicts with which captain he was and then there's like the whole thing where 197 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,040 he killed one of the devourers in the fighting bits by accident they're like I 198 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:08,040 guess you're a devourer now and he's like oh god's sake I think I'd alone I'd 199 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:15,920 lost a little round isn't he oh yeah but he's cheating he's cheating he's too 200 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:24,640 primers no yes that's our questions that's all that's all statements well I 201 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:30,200 suppose then we'll begin where it all began funnily enough we're gonna go 202 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,440 through quite a I wouldn't say too exhaustive history but we can't talk 203 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:39,520 about the black legion without referencing the founding 16th legion the 204 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:44,840 lunar wolves of terror so to start things off the very beginning of the 205 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:49,720 the Emperor's expanse into the galaxy started with the unification of terror 206 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,400 and during the unification of terror obviously there were 20 legions that 207 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,240 were raised up they made from the genetic materials of the Primarchs that 208 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,880 were also made by the Emperor in order to one unified terror and then expand 209 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:06,200 into the galaxy the most revered and powerful of all these legions was the 210 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:12,000 lunar wolves and they were by far especially before the the return of the 211 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:17,200 Primarchs of the Imperium very well regarded by humanity as a whole they 212 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,080 were experts of shock assaults they were versatile in their methods of war and 213 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,640 they would earn their namesake from the pacification of the moon of Luna where 214 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:29,560 they would be called the Emperor's wolves or the lunar wolves it's still 215 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,960 regarded I know I mentioned this I think in our last episode on the great crusade 216 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:38,400 that even to this day Terran still refer to the call of the wolf as something to 217 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:43,400 be feared since the beginning of their glories as a legion because they were 218 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,980 so potent that they would be feared by the populace as the wolves of the 219 00:20:47,980 --> 00:20:53,040 Emperor now it's also known by everyone that the first officially discovered 220 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:57,360 Primarch of the Imperium was Horus Lupical on the world of Cephonia and as 221 00:20:57,360 --> 00:21:02,360 such that would also bolster the lunar wolves and their pedigree with the 222 00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:07,120 remolding of the legion in his image the the culture within the legion would be 223 00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:10,560 as we mentioned with the top knots modeled after Cephonian gang culture 224 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,580 because Cephonia was you know we've we mentioned the last one like space 225 00:21:14,580 --> 00:21:19,680 Chicago like what if Chicago what if Chicago was a planet and it was full of 226 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:24,800 crime bosses and they were like I wasn't matter you I wasn't matter you bang bang 227 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:31,040 and then I don't know why they're still in the 1950s but still and and Colin can 228 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:36,400 offer obviously attest to living near Chicago that he's an expert on on the 229 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:43,280 the culture there and basically an honorary Cephonian in his own regard 230 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:51,000 is that slander or is that like a nice little oh my god I forgot the damn word 231 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:58,080 a compliment I've said I've said I've gone on record plenty of times of this 232 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:05,640 channel and my own making fun of Chicago I think it is what it is it is what it 233 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:11,760 is yeah and with with the legion obviously all the legions were originally 234 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,960 Terran born but with Cephonia they draw they drew so many recruits that yeah 235 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,240 gang markings and the trappings of like when you look at these sons of Horus 236 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,080 armor and the lunar wolves armor they have like the interesting masks and the 237 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,200 top knots and everything but that's all based on Cephonian culture and my 238 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,880 favorite thing about this sorry can I just say go for it go for it when 239 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:36,760 obviously these things were designed a long time ago by the writers and stuff 240 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:41,880 of Black Library but in hindsight that the factions that the traitor legions 241 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:56,320 are no surprise at all like the death guard like the death guard like actively 242 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,440 hates Mortarion actively hated the Emperor like everything like my favorite 243 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:05,960 thing is the death shroud there's like seven deaths route always within 49 244 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,960 paces of Mortarion or something like that and it's like oh what do you know 245 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:18,600 he falls to Nagl whose favorite number seven like yeah sure yeah it's it's so 246 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:24,880 bizarre like he does so much to breed the resentment into Perturago like it's 247 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:30,720 just yeah there must have been there's a bit there's like a debate when or a 248 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,560 conversation between Malkador and Dorne and the Emperor where they talk about 249 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,120 what what who might turn traitor and actually there's a really interesting 250 00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:42,080 part where he is sure of the Lions loyalty but he's not sure about 251 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:47,840 Gillamans and realistically the ones that turn traitor must have been very 252 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,480 little surprise in hindsight I think even Horace says like when they get to 253 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,440 the city of terror he goes why am I surrounded by the my brothers who are 254 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,640 the broken and broken and the damned not broken and damned that's the missing 255 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,400 primal he calls him like the broken ones which is like so I've got the worst 256 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,680 brothers and he's like I wish Ferris is with me and he's like his skull is just 257 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,760 like in the corner it's like yeah that's really warm master short story isn't it 258 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:18,560 yeah you just have a little few times with Ferris's skill I like to think well 259 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:24,040 that was a very specific Shakespeare joke for any of your audience yeah no I got I 260 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,800 got it I knew him it just makes me sad because I meant I like iron hands every 261 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,800 time I think of Irish remember in the book Fulgrim when like they basically 262 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,440 tosses his head on the floor and I'm going oh like I just really like iron 263 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:41,520 hands so it makes me sad a bit of respect yeah just flop like out his eyes 264 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,440 out too and it's like even Horace when he first sees it goes you know he doesn't 265 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:51,120 want to like show it Horace just scrunching his face up going yeesh I 266 00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:55,480 mean who would not gag if they're like family members severed head was on the 267 00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:02,120 floor in front of them like it wouldn't relatable yeah continuing on there's not 268 00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:05,800 much left to say about the lunar walls really they were very cunning warriors 269 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:10,240 with the return of their Primarch obviously they got even more powerful and 270 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:15,520 more shall we say proficient in the arts of war because for a long time I think 271 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,640 20 years they're the only one of the legions who has a Primarch at the helm 272 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,680 and they find Leman Ross and the space wolves and then eventually they get more 273 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:28,600 and more Primarchs back and at this by this point when the great crusade is in 274 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:34,200 full flow the lunar wolves are by and large the most revered respected and 275 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,680 powerful legion the only the only legion that's a close second is the ultra 276 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,400 Marines and that's because they've got so many worlds with so many recruits so 277 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,400 much vast numbers and armaments and Gilliman is a master at you know 278 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,760 logistics so it would make sense that they're the only one who's on the heels 279 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:55,080 of the lunar walls but even then they're not quite as you know they're not the 280 00:25:55,080 --> 00:26:04,120 exemplars of the legions and we was that some earth sweet marines they winning mm-hmm 281 00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:10,640 you do like a bit of blue but with with the the great crusade all the Primarchs 282 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,720 they're assembled you know Primarchs assemble and they're already and they're 283 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:23,440 all laying waste to the Eldar which we all like to see and they already and 284 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,560 they're claiming worlds like their Pokemon like I want that one I want that 285 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,760 one that's mine and eventually they're doing such a good job of this that 286 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,480 there's a resurgence of a virulent plague across the galaxy known as the 287 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:40,960 orcs who are just breeding and well not breeding there they're birthing from 288 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,320 spores and they're having a good war or two and eventually it gets so out of 289 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,320 hand because there's the the humans are decimating everything that isn't an orc 290 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,200 and the orcs are fighting each other and getting stronger and all of a sudden 291 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,840 there's a huge tide of green skins going across the galaxy and the Emperor goes 292 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,240 we've got to stop this before it gets out of hand this is the most important 293 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:05,400 stage of the war and the the final the final leap to becoming the dominant 294 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:10,240 species in the galaxy is we've got to kill the orcs so the Emperor amasses 295 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,160 every legion huge regiments of the Astra Militar and millions of soldiers 296 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:19,600 thousands of Titans and they start to whittle away the orcs and push them back 297 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:26,440 unto the final bastion of the the orc Empire which is Ulanor one day will be 298 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,840 known as Armageddon and when they get to Ulanor Prime the Emperor goes we're 299 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:36,880 gonna kill their orc war boss Erlak Urg, Horus bring your lunar wolves come with 300 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:42,640 me we'll end this and during the battle Ulanor is vast it's you know I think 301 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,760 I think it's mainly the White Scars, Ultramarines and Sons of Horus that are 302 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:55,160 attacking in and around Ulanor Prime and the Emperor gets busy in the fighting 303 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,480 and Horus sees an opportunity to teleport his son then lunar wolves 304 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,040 unto the peak of the the orc headquarters I think it's like a big 305 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:10,400 tower a big spire and Horus confronts Erlak Urg, kicks his ass throws him off 306 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,560 the tower until he splatters on the ground below which I love is like an 307 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,600 imagery you just what's that you know like that that that meme of like that 308 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,040 person looking up to see a piano before it crashes on top of their head but it's 309 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:31,960 just a giant orc yeah they were scared when they went oh god our massive guy 310 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:38,960 in charge is now like a Jackson Pollock over here oh run away run away and the 311 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,960 White Scars and Ultramarines have a great time just cutting them down 312 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:47,760 whatever's left for a while and after a while it's a clear victory the orcs are 313 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,280 routed the Emperor is really pleased and he goes okay I've got to do this webway 314 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,720 project thing which we mentioned a bit more of in our great crusade part one 315 00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:01,160 episode and he goes I need to attend to things on Holy Terror in secret 316 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:06,240 Horus you are now the war master of the Imperium so he gifts him this title the 317 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,040 16th Legion are then rechristened as the sons of Horus and they adopted it's not 318 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:16,640 instant they have to actually I'm sorry really cool little tidbit but it's 319 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:23,400 really cool so in that in the final battle on Ulanor there's a short story 320 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:28,440 that covers Horus and the Emperor fighting together it's as amazing as 321 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,120 you'd imagine and something that's really relevant for today there's a very 322 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:38,200 clear bit when the Emperor actually saves Abaddon I know what you're talking 323 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:42,400 about yeah it's actually kind of like I shouldn't probably let that one get 324 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:47,920 squished yeah it's funny in hindsight but yeah it's pretty cool and actually 325 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,920 there there's a bit where people often debate this where actually the Emperor 326 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:57,440 looks like he's gonna get overwhelmed by the ways you know in hindsight we need 327 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:03,120 to be like a primal type level of power but yeah too often a debate in terms of 328 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,880 was the Emperor kind of Horus then comes to the rescue kind of yeah and 329 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:12,520 debate in terms of was it the Emperor just kind of testing Horus or was yeah 330 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,960 was our primal that powerful can they actually kind of threaten the master of 331 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,240 mankind I wouldn't put it past the Emperor to be like I'm gonna hold back a 332 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,600 little so he can prove himself because I've got him in mind as well too because 333 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,080 if you're the Emperor you think I've got to do the Webway project we're nearly 334 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,360 done with this oh that's the perfect opportunity to make sure that he's ready 335 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,520 I would assume that's what the Emperor would do. You forgot the funniest part of that which is 336 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:41,200 they get done the ground beneath them gets like destroyed so they're falling 337 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,240 yeah and all the custodians just like because they're so loyal to the Emperor 338 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,560 they just start jumping off the edge and suddenly even like splatter next to them 339 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,520 but they're just like my lord and they just jump it's like it's like almost 340 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,160 suicidal but literally they cannot not defend the Emperor so literally they 341 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:03,420 just jump in like to their deaths because they're like why not yeah I think it's 342 00:31:03,420 --> 00:31:09,240 much funnier to imagine that this random orc nearly just took out the God Emperor 343 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:15,280 of mankind well before anything else could have come. I've always wondered I don't know if this is ever 344 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,240 actually confirmed anywhere but there's often a question of why did the Emperor 345 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:24,640 start when they they did and why when he did and when we have conversations with 346 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,440 perpetuals during the siege of Terra there's this idea of the Emperor really 347 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:33,040 started to rush and we towards we get to a certain point and of course there's 348 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,640 often an idea that the Emperor had visions of the threats that would one 349 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,080 day the sale humanity like the Tyranids and the Necrons etc but I like to think 350 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,400 Ulanor was the main driving force because there is as we find out in the 351 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:51,720 War of the Beast if you let an orc war get out of control it's really bad 352 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:56,080 they are phenomenally powerful and so I do wonder whether that was completely 353 00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:02,280 legit an orc and it's so nice there's a hilarious Reddit post on 354 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,960 within once of they could keep track of every victory and loss across all the 355 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,600 books and orcs do terribly so it would be nice to have some sort of cool orc 356 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,520 victory although with what Colin was saying about could it best the only 357 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:20,160 thing about that is when I think of that orc was bested by Horus before he got 358 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,320 corrupted and the Emperor still managed to kill Horus when he was empowered by 359 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,840 chaos and he was restraining himself for a while because he didn't want to do it 360 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,320 until the very last moment yeah I don't know I'm like he could have probably 361 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,920 just been like Psywave splat there goes that orc warlord I just like to met like 362 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:50,720 the orc came out he was a it was a cheap shot it was a Morki orc yeah I mean that 363 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,080 is that is what happens when you leave the orcs alone the Eldar the Eldar 364 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:59,560 weren't around to clean them up anymore so they that guy showed up 365 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:09,600 don't leave the orcs alone like don't feed the orcs but anyway so that's 366 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:16,240 Ulan-or basically done so the the Primarch of the 16th Horus Lübegau doesn't 367 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:21,080 initially like immediately change the name and color scheme of his of his 368 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,760 legion to the sons of Horus he thinks it's a bit go she's like I don't want 369 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:29,320 to be seen as this oh look at me I'm the warm-ass to the big ups but he is by 370 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,720 this point clearly the first among equals he is ascended past the stature 371 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,600 of all of his brothers even the ones who might be better suited to the task as 372 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:43,160 warm-ass to like the lion or sanguineous or Bobby G or a boutique 373 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:51,120 Gilliman Bobby but in the end this basically for a few years the sons of 374 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,880 Horus are you know lording it up they're going look at us we're the best legion 375 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,960 all the leaders are pretty cool bro but they're not exactly you know the sons of 376 00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:07,080 Horus am I right bro that's basically you know like all of them and the just 377 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,320 a side note yeah with the whole thing of Aberdon he was the only member of the 378 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,960 just Stare and to survive the battle with Erlak alongside Horus I think he's 379 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,720 like had to just kind of be buried under a bunch of corpses of the orcs and then 380 00:34:19,720 --> 00:34:24,000 he just like staggers out at the end like well that was tricky but eventually 381 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,080 even though the sons of Horus are bringing compliances across the worlds 382 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,040 and across the galaxy is the the great crusade is you know not running out of 383 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,360 steam but it's coming to an end it's nearly over and and the Astartes at this 384 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,440 point are going I wonder what we'll do when we're not fighting anything oh 385 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:45,800 that'll be interesting I would know maybe I'll pick up pottery but 386 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:52,680 unfortunately great crusade was not meant to end on a light note because 387 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:58,200 this is when the big cataclysmic event and as the Horus heresy would begin 388 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:04,760 during the compliance of the world of I believe it is Darwin the sons of Horus 389 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:10,640 are trying to in compliance with this world long story short we cover this more in the 390 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,960 great crusade episode again but long story short the planetary governor Eugen 391 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,880 Timber is corrupted by the plague god Nergal he's also given the anaphame 392 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:24,840 elic sword from Erebus stolen from the inter-ex species which is another 393 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:30,160 tangent all you need to know is Horus goes back to daven to try and bring 394 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,560 compliance to this rebellious world that he's just conquered he gets stabbed with 395 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:40,720 a magic sword and it puts him in a coma and the the elite advisors and captains 396 00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:45,660 of the Legion the Mournaval including Ezekiel Abaddon freaking out their dad 397 00:35:45,660 --> 00:35:49,080 is wounded he's in a coma they don't know what to do they go to the moon of 398 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,480 Darwin wait we forgot to say that they coffin dance and pass the civilians and 399 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:59,080 ram them with his shiny bald head as the comment said. 400 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:03,440 Well even though he was asleep so they knock the door open with the big bald 401 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:09,920 chromium dome and yeah they speak to the davenite priests with Erebus in tow 402 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:16,400 Horus within his kind of warp infused fugue state whatever you want to call it 403 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,240 where he's he's in the warp but he's also dreaming and his spirit is in the 404 00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:25,680 warp is it also tied to his body we don't know it's magic-y stuff he is then 405 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:30,680 shown visions by the Chaos gods about the terrible future that's upcoming you 406 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:36,960 know great crusade to electric Boogaloo but with more chains and terrible things 407 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:45,480 and he is reborn as the warmaster of chaos for the remainder of the well from 408 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,640 the dawn and the remainder of the Horus heresy the sons of Horus are actually 409 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,680 not as forefront as some of the other legions like they're there for Istvan 410 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,120 free because it's the opening stage where they're betrayed that they're 411 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,100 they're weeding out the loyalists in their ranks and the other legions that 412 00:36:59,100 --> 00:37:02,640 are sided with Horus and they're obviously at the siege of terror and 413 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,400 they help out in the Istvan five drop site massacre but the sons of Horus are 414 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:11,040 kind of kept back because they are the creme de la creme of the legions Horus 415 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,320 doesn't want to waste his men doing the mundane stuff that the iron warriors can 416 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:19,040 do essentially I know there's gonna be some copium in the in the comments about 417 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,160 I like iron warriors and Emperor's children but like from Horus's 418 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,960 perspective he's like I'm not gonna put my men in danger when I can save them 419 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:31,360 for the siege of terror and that kind of stuff so I think really 420 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,260 when you think about like post Istvan they're not really that focal for a lot 421 00:37:35,260 --> 00:37:40,040 of the stories they don't fight as many of the other legions kind of squarely 422 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:44,480 they're mostly fighting worlds but they're actually again like they're 423 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:51,160 conquering loads of planets but they're not like a writing point of view they've 424 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:56,760 obviously had a bunch of books at the start of the Horus heresy so during this 425 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:01,560 time it's the writers focusing on other legions primarily and we actually skip a 426 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:06,160 lot of a lot of time without going back to Horus and Horus heresy if you read it 427 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,360 chronologically I know they've just released that new Cephonia is it 428 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,480 Cephonia reckoning or whatever it's got something with like the guy with the the big axe on 429 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,320 the front and the the Imperial Fist so that would be interesting I haven't I 430 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:22,200 haven't read that one but long story short Horus is like I'm keeping my guys 431 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:28,200 like ready to take holy terror I know they're harassed a bit by the 432 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,920 shattered legions which is quite cool like Shadrach my boy Shadrach Medusen 433 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:36,560 who's a Chad but that's not their their intention they just happen to be attacked 434 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:41,600 by them and even when the siege of terror happens Horus doesn't really 435 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,000 release his legion until the last moment so that he can be the one who kicks the 436 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,080 door down when you know the world eaters and the the iron warriors and deathguard 437 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,760 have already kind of battered the enemy enough that they can just you know 438 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:57,960 treadmill they can just steamroll over the rest of the defenders of 439 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:03,520 the Emperor so I would do things probably actually we're talking about 440 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:12,200 Saturday night here is a story have you guys read Saturday night very recently 441 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:19,000 okay so yeah Saturday night is like a gambit that Aberdon and 442 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,560 Perturabo wants to go ahead there are some tunnels underneath the Imperial 443 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:28,680 Palace and Dawn finds out about this but of course because it's 40k Perturabo 444 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:33,280 and Aberdon know Dawn knows about this and they know the Horus won't let them 445 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:37,120 do it then says that Horus did want them to do it and that's why Perturabo 446 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,520 eventually leaves the siege of terror but anyway ultimately they send the 447 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,560 Jushtarin and the Jushtarin are Aberdon's original kind of company they are the 448 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:50,000 first company of the sons of Horus and they are all Terminators that's they're 449 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,360 the ones that wear black out the sons of Horus and these are as Andy says like 450 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:59,600 the best of the best these are the best warriors of the entire Imperium and 451 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:04,840 traitor forces and to stand against them we get kill teams and it is the coolest 452 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:10,880 scene it's such a cool scene so many legends of the Horus heresy form these 453 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:15,440 kill teams and then they stand against the Jushtarin and cool cool signs of 454 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,680 stuff like is it the is it Endrid Har is something like the black hound and then 455 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:26,200 has a fun one and they literally they go through them and it's yeah it's really cool 456 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,120 it's like that scene in the first Star Wars was like red one standing by red 457 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:35,640 five standing by it's like the Astartes yeah and that's oh yeah there's a bit with Dawn that goes through them and 458 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:40,600 Dawn then has to leave because Borgrim I should say to allow this to happen this 459 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,560 is where the Emperor's children the Emperor's children are very famous in 40k for 460 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,280 being cowards because they leave the siege of terror this is what basically 461 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:51,760 forces them to do this where they they attack on the surface so Dawn has to go 462 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,680 and deal with that so you just get a load of Astartes to deal with this and 463 00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:00,720 yeah the Loyalist forces hold them back Abaddon is very nearly killed by 464 00:41:00,720 --> 00:41:04,280 Nathaniel Garrow he's like one of the only Jushtarin that makes out well like 465 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,080 Endrid Har rushes him and then he kills Endrid Har and then he collapses on him 466 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,600 and he's like a previously he used to be a Thunder Warrior so he's massive and 467 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:16,600 Abaddon's like I can't move and Garrow's like I'm gonna stab you and it's very 468 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,320 funny hearing him like this is also worm his way out it's worth mentioning as 469 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:26,680 well like during this part of the siege of terror Horus is kind of in a one-on-one 470 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:31,720 psychic slash mental duel with the Emperor and he's not this is like kind 471 00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:37,840 of the a much bigger accumulation of the rift between what would be the sons of 472 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:42,900 Horus and Horus like because Horus is kind of not involved in the actual siege 473 00:41:42,900 --> 00:41:47,480 he's like fighting on a different plane so Abaddon even gets a little bit this 474 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,880 is where his like resentment has been growing and he's like you know he's a 475 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,560 space marine he's having to like deal with the Primarchs as like an equal 476 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,880 whereas I like is are you just yeah it's Abaddon like it's really interesting 477 00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:07,800 it's a really it's a Zadu Layak is a word bearer who doesn't when Lorgar betrays 478 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:15,360 Horus and Horus piece the shit out of him Lorgar then fucks off and the Zadu 479 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:20,960 Layak and a bunch of word bearers do go to terror and Zadu Layak pretty clearly 480 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:25,920 believes that actually Abaddon will be the chosen War Master some days these 481 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,320 things are all called long before and one of the things that was so interesting 482 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:34,760 for me was when I first read the Black Legion series I thought that Talon of 483 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:39,400 Horus the first book would be the story of Abaddon kind of realizing the Horus 484 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,080 was a fool that's what Abaddon says a bunch of times well that kind of Horus was a 485 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,640 fool and he would realize this but actually by the time we meet Abaddon 486 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:50,480 there's like a little quest to go and find Abaddon he's already realized this 487 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,920 and he's very much trying to you know convince his what will become his 488 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:58,920 brothers to actually turn their backs on their fathers where possible and like 489 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,600 the reason for that is because the actual kind of main character development 490 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:06,680 of Abaddon happens in the Horus in the Siege of Terror and it's a pretty big 491 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,880 change because when people are critical of Abaddon the reason they do that is 492 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:15,120 because in the first the main trilogy which is one of the most popular series 493 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,920 of books the first three novels of the Horus heresy Abaddon's a touch whiny I'll 494 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:23,080 give you that but he gets that the reason for that is because they obviously 495 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:27,760 didn't want they didn't want the Horus heresy to look like a clear setup for 496 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,800 Abaddon but it's really well done in the Siege of Terror where he does get this 497 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:36,640 kind of set up throughout the books and him and Paterabo actually kind of 498 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:41,720 realized that they're kind of aligned on how they think Horus is some Horus is 499 00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:46,520 actually like a fool and he's being a puppeted by chaos now what we actually 500 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,640 find out and probably the biggest retcon to the Horus heresy has been that 501 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,560 Horus is not a puppet and Horus is actually in control of everything and 502 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:59,440 Paterabo and Abaddon's scheme of satanine which they think they kind of 503 00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:06,800 did behind Horus's back it turns out Horus knew about this all along and yeah 504 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,720 I'm kind of curious to see how Abaddon's gonna reconcile all of that 505 00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:15,840 the last the best bit about I think all his best seen in the entire 506 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,880 Siege of Terror so far was when they were trying to drag him away because he 507 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:25,480 got wounded didn't he yeah and he literally starts to cry because he's 508 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:30,600 like he enjoys fighting so much like that's why Abaddon's like the perfect 509 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:36,200 he's not it's why I think he's clearly right like the Emperor would discard 510 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,160 many of the Space Marines at the end of the Great Crusade because there's no 511 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:46,000 place for soldiers like Abaddon because he's just he he doesn't enjoy peace he 512 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,440 likes fighting that's why I think in my opinion there'll never be an end to 513 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:53,760 Abaddon like they'll never do an end times in 40k because Abaddon is like I 514 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:58,040 don't really want to win but that's like a discussion for later but he weeps 515 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,920 when they try to drag him away being like you're gonna die here's like but I 516 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:05,280 like fighting so much he's like no let me back in he's like screaming let me 517 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:10,840 back in let me have a really little funny little bit where like one of them 518 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:16,160 I think he's an Iron Warrior I'm trying to remember anyway but he he's like under ground 519 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,640 trying to make his way into the Saturnine tunnels and he gets stuck in the 520 00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:25,520 drill but of course as a starty they're not functionally immortal but they live 521 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:32,760 for a very long time so assume he just dies of like thousands of years later 522 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:37,640 just underneath the Imperial palace and no one knows he's there damn that's one 523 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,920 way to go yeah you made it all the way to the 524 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:44,280 siege of terror and he got buried yeah but like yeah because he's a because 525 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,520 he's a star he also just like can't like just after that there anything nice and 526 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:53,640 straightforward it's gonna be like millennia I mean slightly going back a 527 00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:59,040 moment like another thing I like about Avedon during the the the siege 528 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,760 of Terebrox in particular like I'm just almost done with echoes of eternity and 529 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:07,440 there's like a nice bit where it's a flashback of him and Tarek Torgadon the 530 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,160 captain of the second company of the Lunar Walls at the time of Sanguinus 531 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:15,280 talking about oh he's just about to meet his his legion he's just been found and 532 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,960 Sanguinus has been fighting alongside the the Lunar Wolves and yeah I kind of 533 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,360 learned from them and they're having a bit of banter they're like oh you'll be 534 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,160 a great Primarch we know you'll do and it's like it's interesting seeing 535 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:31,280 Avedon interact with a lot of the big heavy heavy-hitting players in the 536 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,800 series and even with like what you said about Pertorabo when he realizes oh I 537 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:40,360 think Pertorabo used me and I thought I was on his level and I thought we were 538 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:45,080 friends but no actually Pertorabo was just using me and then he's obviously 539 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:49,040 got the alliance and the newer books and you're like okay like yeah he learns 540 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,960 from his mistakes and he also interacts with the biggest most powerful characters 541 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,800 in the setting quite often. I don't think it's that book but I think there's 542 00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:01,360 another Arrimwar book but there's definitely a quote nice and sure where 543 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:07,560 Sanguinus calls Avedon a model of warriorship that's how much Sanguinus 544 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:11,920 thinks of Avedon and to clarify that's not because one of the things I love 545 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,280 about Avedon personally and I'm always surprised when people hate Avedon 546 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:20,560 because Avedon is not the best fighter he does not think himself is the 547 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:25,720 best swordsman out of the Sons of Horus when he has Iskandar Khaon when he 548 00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:29,120 duels Iskandar Khaon during the siege of terror I'm sorry during the 549 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:33,880 legion wars then you know Iskandar is probably the better fighter of the two 550 00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:38,840 of them and he has got a lot of bulk to him but like what he is is he is actually 551 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,560 point noble at heart and that's what Sanguinus is referring to a man he does 552 00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:46,640 like that if you like space marines because you're like oh my brother which 553 00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:51,920 a lot of people do Avedon's kind of your guy like he's big on brotherhood and 554 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:57,360 yeah yes he wants Dominion but that's he has he would do almost anything for his 555 00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:01,360 brothers like there's even and I don't think they've ever properly explored this but he 556 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:07,000 even besieges Comorah for one of his brothers which is a crazy feat to 557 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:12,520 undertake well before we get to two sides because I'm sure we were like going 558 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,640 some other bits later especially like the Talon of Horus is one of my favorite 559 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:21,080 books and all of the books just to cap things off for now with the kind of 560 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:25,680 siege of terror so Horus obviously deploys the rest of his sons of Horus 561 00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:31,720 Legion to finally storm the Imperial Palace during this time the Emperor goes 562 00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:34,760 enough of this right I'm gonna go and give him a slap 563 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:39,720 Grogor Dorne Sanguinus come with me bring some men we're gonna go kill Horus 564 00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:44,120 towards the vengeful spirit they have a bit of a clash the Emperor is wounded 565 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:49,320 horrifically but he also kills Horus in the fray and the sons of Horus retreat 566 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:55,160 from holy terror because the war is over the war master is dead half or well most 567 00:48:55,160 --> 00:49:00,080 of the primarch I mean Angron's down Paderabos retreated Mortarion's been 568 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:05,280 beheaded in rather flashy fashion by everyone's favorite primarch Jagatai 569 00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,720 Khan my favorite prime everyone who doesn't like Jagatai go away you're 570 00:49:08,720 --> 00:49:16,720 rubbish the traders have lost basically and Abaddon is pretty annoyed about this 571 00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:21,600 so he kind of goes on a I would best describe as a pilgrimage for meaning he 572 00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,880 he joins the Legion in retreating to the Eye of Terror and he kind of abandons the 573 00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,840 sons of Horus because he goes I've had enough of these losers 574 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:33,680 we're all a bunch of losers dad was a loser we're a loser hate the Imperium 575 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:40,560 love me Legion hate the Imperium and before we go on to kind of the 576 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:46,480 events of the the Talon of Horus book in particular Colin I have a quote that I'm 577 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:51,920 gonna put in the side chat would you be up for reading a quote from I think this 578 00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:57,760 is the second black Legion book I'd be happy to use it it's in the I found it 579 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:05,560 all right this is a cool-looking quote the only good is knowledge secounder I 580 00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:09,480 hope I pronounced that right the only good is knowledge secounder the only 581 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,800 evil is ignorance that is a saying uttered by as many fools as visionaries 582 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,080 and an attitude that has led to damnation more than once the last man to 583 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:22,280 speak those words of my presence doomed our Legion 584 00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:30,400 quote from the second book quite like the input I don't know the context of 585 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:37,400 the quote but uh I like to imagine that was said directly to Magnus I'm not 586 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:42,080 secounder but I feel like there might have been referencing the thousand sons 587 00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:47,240 just a tad hmm well the thing is like the events are leading up a kind of a 588 00:50:47,240 --> 00:50:52,240 conglomeration of how do you take all these legions that utterly failed in 589 00:50:52,240 --> 00:50:56,920 their objective and remold them into something new also into a Legion that 590 00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:02,720 has learned from its mistakes so during the the scouring all the traitors are 591 00:51:02,720 --> 00:51:06,200 retreating to the Eye of Terror with as much haste as possible so that you know 592 00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:10,480 like Lehman Russ and his space walls or Gilliman and his his blue smurfs are 593 00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:15,440 gonna you know wipe you out before you can get out so they all try to to 594 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:21,560 retreat and Abaddon's gone and done his little pilgrimage and Fabius Bile 595 00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:26,120 everyone's favorite mad scientist of the Emperor's children he's got a clever 596 00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:32,040 idea now we all love Fabius for his crazy science experiments but this time 597 00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:37,080 he's he's one-upped himself he has been for a time now cloning Primarchs 598 00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:42,160 there's short stories about him cloning Ferus Manus for Fulgrim in order for 599 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,760 Fulgrim to hopefully rebuild his brother from the ground up so that he might 600 00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:51,440 once again have banter and revelries but I don't know if Hal if you know 601 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,400 the the reference but there's like a short story where he's having a 602 00:51:55,400 --> 00:52:00,920 conversation with Ferus who's been cloned several times and Ferus's clone 603 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:05,240 realizes he's been killed by Fulgrim and then he kills him and then there's like 604 00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:09,680 a back room with like a hundred like corpses of Ferus Manus all piled on top 605 00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:15,200 of each other you're like oh Fabius has been busy no silver arms though not with 606 00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:24,240 no arms no just raw Manus for us but he's been able to I believe clone every 607 00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:27,840 one of the Primarchs in his efforts he's he's gotten material from all sorts like 608 00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:32,280 for example I believe he's gotten blood from Sanguineous from the Talon of 609 00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:36,920 Horus and he's used that to clone Sanguineous he's maybe gotten a lock of 610 00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:42,400 hair from his own Primarch Fulgrim to make his Primarch and he needs something 611 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:49,440 to clone the War Master himself so it's the Emperor's children under Fabius's 612 00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:54,760 orders they steal War Master Horus's corpse from the world of Malium or 613 00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:58,360 Malium which is in the Eye of Terror and it's basically the the base of 614 00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:02,880 operations of the sons of Horus that are remaining and the primogenitor gets his 615 00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:07,040 hands on the I don't know how like there's a cook because the reference in 616 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,880 the books at least is like the Emperor vaporizes Horus so I'm like just 617 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:15,760 imagining like a nose or something like or an ear of Horus I think he supposedly 618 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:21,280 it was like what happened with the the Prime Orc on Ull-Nor he doesn't he 619 00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:26,480 builds it's why they think the Emperor may have gone quote-unquote easy he's 620 00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,560 actually building up a special power the Emperor has where he literally 621 00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:34,640 eliminates your soul from existence so I think he just he literally eliminated 622 00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:39,420 Horus's soul from his body like soul trap from Skyrim just oh no no it's like 623 00:53:39,420 --> 00:53:42,900 it's gone like the chaos 624 00:53:42,900 --> 00:53:50,640 in his hand it's definitely a reference to Horus's whole body later on we'll see 625 00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:54,600 the the siege of the last year Tarot book is coming out I guess this year so 626 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:59,960 we'll have to see how it truly ends but for current question I didn't want to 627 00:53:59,960 --> 00:54:04,680 interrupt again but like I was gonna say in terms of Abaddon because you can't 628 00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:10,360 ask it do you think that he will be there on the ventral spirit when Abaddon 629 00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:15,360 when Horus and the Emperor face? I think Abaddon I think the new law will be that 630 00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:20,640 Abaddon lets them into like because they've lost aren't they on the 631 00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:27,160 ventral spirit I feel like Abaddon will betray Horus now rather than it being 632 00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:32,600 like a like he I think he accepts like you know because when you when you meet 633 00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:37,480 him in the... were you a I think Abaddon's gonna lower the shields guy was that your 634 00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:44,400 theory as well? yeah well I think I think he'll I think he'll do something to 635 00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:49,760 betray Horus in the last book because I think he's already he's come to the 636 00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:55,040 point where he realizes when I think one he doesn't want the war to end and two I 637 00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:59,360 don't think he wants Horus I think he yeah I think he thinks Horus has already 638 00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,400 abandoned them so he's gonna betray Horus in some way I don't think you'll 639 00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:10,600 necessarily betray Horus I certainly think he will fight Loken I think that 640 00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:19,960 the actual battle is Horus and Loken 2v2ing Abaddon and Horus and I think 641 00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:24,800 that Loken will essentially win the fight you know knock Abaddon out kind of 642 00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:30,040 thing and I'm sure some incredibly harsh parting words about brotherhood etc will 643 00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:34,600 be thrown and then I think Loken will be there the thing that always blows my 644 00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:41,160 mind is that the Emperor walking in and seeing Sanguinius dead doesn't make him 645 00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:49,160 kill Horus and the there's a big book in the big bit in the final in the second 646 00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:53,480 penultimate book where they he talks about how Sanguinius is the favorite 647 00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:58,960 son and Loken is the favorite son of Horus and so I think that actually it 648 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:05,000 will be the Emperor seeing Horus kill his favorite son yeah that actually 649 00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,320 makes the Emperor finally go informatically it'd be good to like end 650 00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,920 the series with the character that started the series as well 651 00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:18,480 he has to end it with I was there that was so good kind of like referencing what I said about 652 00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:24,040 before like because Loken is the catalyst but I think a good way to describe Abaddon 653 00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,320 in the books is he's the witness like he is at every step of the books he's in so 654 00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,920 many bits like the better mention with like Sanguinius he's he's mentioned in 655 00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:36,320 all sorts of little tangents it's like Abaddon is the one who sees everything 656 00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:40,320 happen and then like absorbs all that knowledge and then is the one who's like 657 00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:43,440 you're the witness to the Horus heiress you've been there from the start you're 658 00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,800 all the major events and you have to burden that and I think that's the 659 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:50,200 interesting thing about Abaddon in that regard whereas Loken is more like I'm 660 00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,600 the one who the story starts with and I'll be the one where it ends as well 661 00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:59,520 hopefully but very very thematic with with obviously the first book Horus 662 00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:03,400 rising for anyone who doesn't know much about Warhammer it kind of starts with 663 00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:10,600 Loken saying I was there the day Horus threw the Emperor as a funny tale about 664 00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:17,040 a sort of mini guy calling himself the Emperor and Horus kills him as like a 665 00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:21,440 small like offshoot world and I think it would be very obviously thematic if it 666 00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:26,240 was Loken saying again I was there the day that Horus threw the Emperor or is 667 00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:31,840 that why is it just to finish off as in Collins comment section once once I was 668 00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:38,600 there the day Horus shat himself 669 00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:43,200 that was a great line. One of the things I think they've done really well in the 670 00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:50,200 Siege of Terror is they've not tried to like throw in a surprise purely to throw 671 00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:54,440 in a surprise like there's a lot of blank space in the original old lore that 672 00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:57,720 they've used well and they've definitely retconned things in places you know the 673 00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:02,360 entire Dark King storyline is new but it doesn't really detract from the 674 00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:09,200 original story so like the things like that it's so expected for Dan Abnett to 675 00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:15,600 put that in I feel like he will do just because it is it's so necessary. 676 00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:20,480 No need to subvert our expectations just fulfill them yeah yeah and in fact 677 00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:24,960 whilst I've got you because I don't get to talk to many big lore people yeah well 678 00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:28,720 what do you think is gonna go on with Elenius Pius then do you think he is 679 00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:34,320 going to be there? Oh it's a good question because... He's nice I guess I mean to be 680 00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:37,760 honest I'm not I gotta be honest I'm not as invested in him as a character as 681 00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:57,600 Loken I'm like oh he's cool but Loken is the one I care about. I don't think anyone is I don't think anybody really loves the Argonauts as much as Dan Abnett but I like the end of the death volume one there's just so much like I don't know name dropping I don't know what you call it but you can't not be 682 00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:03,800 invested and it's the only place I can see it going also there's a very there's a 683 00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:07,960 bit where they talk there's so much stuff where it's like why would they say 684 00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:12,720 this unless he is gonna be there so they talk about how his dagger in the hands 685 00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:16,640 of a perpetual is one of the only things that can actually harm Horus at his 686 00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:19,960 current power level and it's like that's an interesting thing just to drop there 687 00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:24,760 Dan. The thing is like the way you're phrasing it as well of like all these 688 00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:27,760 big characters being in the throne room I'm just imagining like the Emperor 689 00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:32,640 walking in and it's like Horus kills Loken and then he kills Elanius and then 690 00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,640 he kills mother Teresa and it just keeps going and going and going he's like 691 00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:39,760 what are all these people doing here? He just overdoes it with like and then he 692 00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:46,760 kills the Krispy Kreme person. No don't kill all these people. It would be knowing how Dan Abnett writes as well it'll be 693 00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:54,880 something where it fulfills an already existing idea like a myth has been 694 00:59:54,880 --> 01:00:00,840 espousing so it like you said Dan Abnett likes to write and almost retell a lot 695 01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:06,520 of myth and mythology in his work so I imagine something along that line. 696 01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:10,480 It's the only character he can do it with. There might be I don't know if 697 01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:15,080 Elanius Pius will give up his perpetual nature maybe to save the 698 01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:19,840 character or something or obviously I don't think he'll make it. What like with Malkador? 699 01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:24,920 Yeah I don't think he'll make it I think he might do it to you know in the 700 01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:28,280 final fight to help the Emperor but I reckon obviously Malkador does it just 701 01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:33,040 to basically keep the Emperor awake he's like ah you know the Emperor is not awake 702 01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:38,040 and then Malkador will do it as like a last bit just to give him a little bit 703 01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:44,720 of a you know wake up bro you know it's it's Chicago wake up. I mean like you 704 01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:48,680 know how Magnus sorry Malkador was brought back to life I've forgotten her name but 705 01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:52,320 the other perpetual lady that the Emperor made. Yeah yeah like it could be something like that 706 01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:55,600 maybe the Emperor does die and on because it's so interesting because 707 01:00:55,600 --> 01:01:02,200 oh clearly hates the Emperor he stabbed him so like it would that would be an 708 01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:06,440 interesting twist if the Emperor does kind of die. I think all the perpetuals 709 01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:10,760 will die by the end of there's no there's no place for them in the 40k 710 01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:15,200 timeline but yeah and I'll say maybe like one you know what was also really weird 711 01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:20,240 sorry massive tangent go for it really weird you know how when Erebus kills 712 01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:26,360 Urda right so Erebus is an amazing scene fantastic scene and when she splits into 713 01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:31,600 three people fights four grey demons awesome but then he kills her but he 714 01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:37,760 kills her with an Athene, an Athene dagger. Yeah. The kill's Horus but the thing is we have that 715 01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:42,280 entire unremembered Empire story and we have so much discussion on the Fulgwraite 716 01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:46,880 dagger and Fulgwraite if you're not familiar Fulgwraite is a material that's 717 01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:50,960 made from like when the lightning of the Emperor strikes sand or something like 718 01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:56,640 that and it's a powerful enough knife in the hands of certain people it can kill 719 01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:02,280 permanently kill perpetuals and but like so that's there's a lot of the reason I 720 01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:06,440 say that is because there's a lot of story behind that which then ends up 721 01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:13,240 with the sanity of Vulcan returning but is there any way in the law that it 722 01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:17,200 actually says an Athene dagger can kill a perpetual because that seemed very 723 01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:24,840 much implies that that's Urda dead dead but like does that kill a perpetual? It can kill a Primarch. 724 01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:32,040 Yeah I mean there's that short story of like the perspective of the Athene dagger or the sword where it's like first 725 01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:37,560 found by a human in like a barbaric civilization and it's like it's weird 726 01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:40,760 it's like a weird short story of like what does the anatheme think about all 727 01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:45,840 this like here's a story whereas like yeah like if you made a dagger from the 728 01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:49,960 lightning from when the Emperor like accidentally missed a target from his 729 01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:53,160 lightning bolts like fair enough it's powerful but like yeah I would think the 730 01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:57,440 Athene is way more powerful and that it can like tear holes through space and 731 01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:03,120 it's like a primordial kind of thing I'm not sure it's meant to be as like 732 01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:07,180 That being said though Gilman got stabbed by one and his response was just to go 733 01:03:07,180 --> 01:03:09,200 no! 734 01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:11,200 Also I don't know if it's primordial isn't it? 735 01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:12,440 Xenotech. 736 01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:19,600 The anatheme is the Fulgurite is made from it's made from when the Emperor and exited the warp isn't it? 737 01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:20,840 Lightning that's true. 738 01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:25,080 I think it's a bit where they talk about like his lightning striking sandal or something like that 739 01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:27,520 because it's like glass. 740 01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:35,320 It's like a fermented lightning bolt from the Emperor's essence like oh it just happened to like form by accident once it's fun. 741 01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:39,160 Sorry I never get to ask people these questions so they're just gonna come out from time to time. 742 01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:41,160 Go for it, go for it. 743 01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:43,160 Send them. 744 01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:49,080 But I suppose we'll continue where we left off with basically the events of the Talon of Horus so 745 01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:56,760 Fabius succeeds in cloning the Warmaster himself and at this point in time 746 01:03:56,760 --> 01:04:02,680 Abaddon has been found by I believe it's Falcus Kaiba a former captain of the Sons of Horus. 747 01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:08,600 He's gone to he's assembled like a few other like members of different legions. 748 01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:11,400 What's the thousand sun called that he gets? 749 01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:13,400 He's called Kaon. 750 01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:17,240 So he gets him and some other people and they like make a weird rogues gallery of like 751 01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:22,360 we're all from broken legions that used to be like at least somewhat competent. 752 01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:28,280 Let's go on a quest to find Abaddon so they go and find Abaddon and one thing I find interesting about Abaddon in that book is like 753 01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:35,000 they go to the vengeful spirit it's just him and he's all like take a look at my gallery of stuff and he's got these things like 754 01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:39,640 he's killed a big dragon thing and he's got all these like I found this on a weird planet full of 755 01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:46,840 Moomins oh you've been busy with your hobbies and this is kind of is a weird and it's an interesting thing to give some 756 01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:52,040 character where he was just like I had no purpose so I went out and I just kind of had like a gap year in space 757 01:04:53,320 --> 01:05:01,880 and he found all these artifacts needed all this stuff and they're like uh so we're getting a bit kind of fed up with being you know 758 01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:07,960 teased by the word bearers who are still a full legion and you know the emperor's children harassing us. 759 01:05:07,960 --> 01:05:13,720 We want to be a proper legion again and you're the only one who can really like rally everyone together because you're the first captain. 760 01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:22,360 We want to kill the emperor as much as you do we want to break the imperium we want to we want to we want to make a new legion and Abaddon's like I don't know. 761 01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:32,040 They're like oh did you hear um you know the emperor's children stole Horus's body and he's like huh yeah they're going to like do something with it oh no no no no we can't have that so 762 01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:40,760 you can't attempt Abaddon with some closure with his father and they storm the emperor's children bastion. 763 01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:44,440 I can't remember what the world is called off the top of my head. 764 01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:59,240 Oh I know what you're talking about it's um it's something like it's like an E I it's like not M prize it's like M something but it's like it's still their current base even in the 40k timeline as well. 765 01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:02,360 Like um Izalon has a little base on it now. 766 01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:20,920 Yeah yeah uh we can't remember what it is exactly but they go to like their their their headquarters and Ezekiel basically storms Fabius's lab Fabius does a little hide under a table and presses a button and then the the kind of gestation pod where Horus's clone has been kept is released and um. 767 01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:46,120 Horus has a quick chat with Abaddon and he's all like ah my son and I think also they find the Talon of Horus in this room if I'm not mistaken because that's what uh Fabius uses the blood from it to or something I think he uses the blood from the Talon to clone Sanguinus and he also clones Horus and it's just there in like a like a capsule and it said like there's a presence to it um. 768 01:06:46,120 --> 01:07:16,120 I think he already had the Talon of Horus I know because the because the or does he have it on the the ventral spirit because I think that the clone identity the so the clone comes out and spews the shit out of everybody because he's got world breaker which is the mace that the emperor made for Horus and so I think when he sees Abaddon has the Talon I think that's what kind of oh yeah he's like that's mine and then uh then Abaddon I think he like grabs the world breaker in his claw and just breaks it stabs Horus through the chest with the Talon goes nah mate it's 769 01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:23,800 mine now and then he's all like oh cool this thing is like wounded the emperor now it's technically killed two Primarchs that's cool um. 770 01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:45,400 Which should probably slightly mention the cloning of when we say Fabius Barl cloned all the Primarchs they weren't quite right like a lot of them so they weren't perfect and even this clone of Horus you're probably thinking how does a just a normal space marine clap a Primarch 771 01:07:45,400 --> 01:08:09,240 it it's implied that it's kind of Horus's like Primarch body but the Primarchs generally have like something special when into their creation which is possibly like warp entities so Horus's like soul is not in this clone so he's not got like a Primarch aura and he's not as like strong but he's still a monster. 772 01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:26,040 There's actually for something similar to this so in Fabius Barl's trilogy when there's a bit where these demonets are talking about um the clone of Fulgrim and so like the clone of Fulgrim is thought to be a perfect clone because it supposedly does have a bit of the soul 773 01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:44,920 that is exactly how it's like this the soul is really important 40k but weirdly you still get the memories so that's why the clone of Abbot the clone of Horus as he dies he's like my son and Abbot says I'm your son of yours or something and um so yeah you still get the memories but you won't have like all the power. 774 01:08:44,920 --> 01:09:00,280 There's a bit yeah it's said that the emperor stole the fire of the Chaos Gods and put that into the Primarchs whatever that means is up to you to decide. Yeah it's like what if we got the War Master from Wish.com it's like it's not the same it's not the original it's not what we want. 775 01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:05,320 The War Master from Target. 776 01:09:05,320 --> 01:09:25,080 I like the idea of like Avedon's like I want War Master we have War Master at home and it's Avedon. You know what is actually really interesting as well is that the emperor also says to Conrad Körner that he said um he says none of you will be on redemption which one would assume and I'll just clarify you could say it's not the emperor but I believe in my heart. 777 01:09:25,080 --> 01:09:30,120 Oh the meat the meat puppet he's been talking about. 778 01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:51,640 Yeah which implies that he does say he does say that he could fix he says to Malkuthol that he could fix Ferris Manus after Ferris Manus has died but Horus is kind of the special case because of course Horus in theory has no soul except for the bits of the soul that the Chaos Gods in theory still have and in fact Avedon does when he's in the warp one time. 779 01:09:51,640 --> 01:10:03,400 He does see the soul of Horus bits of the soul forever fighting because Horus fought for like thousands of years for the Chaos Gods like crazy. 780 01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:28,680 Yeah and there is the whole like tangent of when Fabius cloned Fulgrim it was implied that he might redeem the emperor's children somehow is like a new and naive but also you know not corrupted Phoenicia is like and then comes Trezin and now he's in a box like oh I put him in you know what's in the Pokemon storage box is like Fulgrim is in one of those never to be seen again. 781 01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:53,640 Which is a shame but either way to return to Alan and Horus stuff so at this point Horus's clone is dead there's no chance for Fabius to make some new Primarchs I believe Avedon's men destroy all the baby like gestation pod Primarchs that are growing I think there's like a if I'm remembering correctly there's like a bit where there's like a little baby one like putting his hand against the glass and they're just like burn it. 782 01:10:53,640 --> 01:11:03,080 Oh dear so there's no more Primarchs coming back that aren't OGs at this point unless you count Ferus's Legion of the Damned but that's a tangent. 783 01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:18,200 But either way Avedon then goes OK I have the Talon of Horus this is my signifier that I have assumed the mantle of what my father couldn't finish I am now going to be the War Master of Chaos Undivided and he he already has the sons of Horus they've completely 784 01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:25,880 bested the Emperor's children who start running away and doing cocaine or whatever they do. 785 01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:38,200 Basically Avedon goes we're not going to be the sons of Horus anymore they were failures they were a relic of my father's glory we're going to build something new and something better so he now creates the Black Legion. 786 01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:52,600 Now the Black Legion is not a successor of the sons of Horus even though it comprises a lot of the original sons of Horus members this is a brand new Legion that is basically intended to fight the long war against the Imperium. 787 01:11:52,600 --> 01:12:09,160 Avedon will use this Legion as a cudgel to facilitate his Black Crusades across the galaxy all with an objective in mind to fulfill his own goals and anyone who is a traitor can join the Black Legion it's not just sons of Horus 16th Legion Astartes 788 01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:23,480 you're a wild eater who doesn't like Angron you can join you're a thousand son who isn't cringe you can join you're an Emperor's children who can you know put down the needles for a few seconds you can join you know there's there are an equal opportunity Legion. 789 01:12:23,480 --> 01:12:29,240 Even Renegades from the modern timeline can join the Black Legion. 790 01:12:29,240 --> 01:12:46,520 Isn't that like a bit where where Huron Blackheart mentions about like is Avedon mentions like you could join the Black Legion but you have to do as I say and Huron's like I don't want to do that but it's like he gives people opportunities but he's also a bit like you're not stabbing me in the back you're doing exactly as I tell you. 791 01:12:46,520 --> 01:13:15,720 No naughty pirate man during andorax I think it is there's a really funny bit where I think Huron is trying to get Avedon to commit like himself to this like area of the war and Avaspond says like yeah but you just want me to go down and fight because you're hoping I will die and then you can assume control of the Black Legion and then Huron just responds like I mean yeah. 792 01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:21,240 With like a big smile on his face yeah you know I've got to try why not. 793 01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:24,760 Did you miss the part we're all part of chaos that's kind of our thing. 794 01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:28,520 Yeah and I'm a pirate little thing to tip you off. 795 01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:33,800 Especially like he pokes his belly a few times like oh what are you gonna do like. 796 01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:35,160 Nearly got ya. 797 01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:36,040 Um. 798 01:13:36,040 --> 01:13:37,400 By the way. 799 01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:39,880 Sail the seas. 800 01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:44,360 Before we get on to the next bit I've got another quote uh Hal would you be up for reading this one with your. 801 01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:44,920 Already. 802 01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:52,760 A dulcet tones with my side chat now with my terrible flubbing we'll see how well this goes first time. 803 01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:55,240 Love a love a love dub there you go. 804 01:13:55,240 --> 01:14:03,160 This Imperium is ours we fought for it we built it with blood and sweat and wrath. 805 01:14:03,160 --> 01:14:10,040 We forged it with the world we took the Empire is built upon foundations of our brothers bones. 806 01:14:10,040 --> 01:14:13,000 We didn't rebel out of petty spite. 807 01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:17,000 Sigismund oh that's not part of the quote. 808 01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:21,160 We rebelled because our lord and master played us false. 809 01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:24,840 We were useful tools to bring the galaxy to heel. 810 01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:31,320 But he would have cleansed us from the Imperium the way he purged the Thunder Legion before us. 811 01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:36,120 Wiping us all from history like excrement from his golden boots. 812 01:14:36,120 --> 01:14:37,160 Oh yeah. 813 01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:42,200 Savage so yeah not a fan of the original legions anymore at all. 814 01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:48,520 Very much the epitome of jaded you look up jaded in the dictionary there's a picture of Abaddon right there. 815 01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:50,920 Do you think you would have actually killed all the legions? 816 01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:58,200 Yes there was a plan and Malkador actually there's a short story where he is it short story 817 01:14:58,200 --> 01:15:03,160 novella where he like confesses it to a dying I think remembrance or maybe and he just says 818 01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:09,080 yeah there basically was a plan to like get rid of all the like quite a few of the space marines 819 01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:14,600 where like that wouldn't fit in you know yeah I think I think there's like there's a delineation 820 01:15:14,600 --> 01:15:19,640 to be like the ultramarines are probably quite okay because they're like sane but the world eaters 821 01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:23,720 nah we're getting well I would say like some of them yeah definitely though is like you should 822 01:15:23,720 --> 01:15:29,880 go but like like you say the ultramarines imperial fist like I mean they're not they're not in threat 823 01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:35,720 not threatening anyone he talks about like a retirement with the emperor and then the 824 01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:41,800 the prime marks and he's like yeah yeah we're all like you know we'll enjoy the galaxy together 825 01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:49,480 those those that could enjoy it they're basically into those who weren't angry on people I mean 826 01:15:49,480 --> 01:15:53,240 again like listening to the echoes of eternity book it's really interesting when they go into 827 01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:58,600 like the blood angels and how in the bowels of the the the headquarters they're at or their ship 828 01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:03,880 there's just like so and so made a nice uh artistic depiction of one of his uh one of his battle 829 01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:09,160 brothers or like saying a poem in front of a applauding theater of his brothers in like a toga 830 01:16:09,160 --> 01:16:14,040 and then there's another one he did a statue and then zef on just playing sad music on a piano and 831 01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:20,360 you're like oh they would have been fine they would have done art no blood angels the nightlords do 832 01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:31,000 art yeah and this is just people yeah on that lovely night um so we're on the last uh last 833 01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:37,160 section just talking about what they're what are they doing now so the black legion um they allow 834 01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:42,440 there's some interesting things about them for example uh because they aren't uh they aren't 835 01:16:42,440 --> 01:16:47,880 followers of one chaos god originally when they were um getting their getting the hang of things 836 01:16:48,440 --> 01:16:53,240 there used to be this thing where like if you were an astartes and you followed cinch and then all 837 01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:58,760 of a sudden you went now cinch is a nerd i'm gonna follow corn your body would just die because you 838 01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:03,960 would betray your patron so they kind of found a workaround where if they use the legion's 839 01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:08,840 sorcerer librarians now you can kind of uh pick and choose which patron you want if you want to 840 01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:14,120 go full on say nurgle and then you know i don't like his gifts now i want to be slaneshi and it 841 01:17:14,120 --> 01:17:19,320 doesn't have a death penalty anymore i thought that was quite an interesting weird tidbit um 842 01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:24,280 they completely got rid of all their old iconography at least the sons of horus 843 01:17:24,280 --> 01:17:29,320 and uh and basically they all wear black and gold but there are still things like you see world eaters 844 01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:34,760 with the cool like pointy helmets and you see the thousand suns with the the weird uh like kind of 845 01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:39,800 scarab stuff but for the most part they get rid of all their old heraldry and they go nope we are 846 01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:44,920 we are the black legion we keep it simple we keep it stylish we keep it we keep it chic 847 01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:51,560 there's another thing uh much like the mourner val in the sons of horus there is the ezekarion 848 01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:57,160 which is the inner circle of the black legion this is formed of the word bearer sargon eragesh 849 01:17:57,160 --> 01:18:04,920 the thousand suns members iskandorkion and ashokai zezra zezra ma there we go uh the emperor's 850 01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:14,200 children telemakon lyris the world eater leorine ukris iron warrior valakir hain death god ilaester 851 01:18:14,200 --> 01:18:20,840 faliak all and dark angel vortigen sons of horus and muriel enka dark mechanic and mistress 852 01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:27,400 saraxia and prophetess mariana so there's a whole spread of people advising uh as abaddon and his 853 01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:33,640 various uh campaigns and black crusades they uh have on many occasions allied with other war bands 854 01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:38,440 and even demon primarchs in order to have joint cooperate like not as a friendship thing where 855 01:18:38,440 --> 01:18:43,480 we want to do the same thing you give me this i'll give you that and then we'll part ways amicably 856 01:18:43,480 --> 01:18:51,400 um obviously the most um most uh infamous i should say of all the black crusades that happened was 857 01:18:51,400 --> 01:18:57,080 the 13th black crusade where abaddon destroyed kadia i cry every morning when i wake up because 858 01:18:57,080 --> 01:19:03,800 of this fact um and and through its destruction after after i've done my my little cry into my 859 01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:10,760 jar of tears um i remember because of the the the event the fallout from kadia's destruction was 860 01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:17,160 the great rift would spill forth across the galaxy cutting it in twain uh this is also supposedly 861 01:19:17,160 --> 01:19:22,920 fulfilling the crimson path to allow for the suffocation of the throne world by the never 862 01:19:22,920 --> 01:19:28,920 ending expanse of the eye of terror until it subsumes all the galaxy in the warp um there's 863 01:19:28,920 --> 01:19:35,560 a really cool visual uh reference to this in the new 10th edition trailer where you see like the 864 01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:40,360 great rift and there's a shot where it just kind of absorbs a planet into the into its embraces 865 01:19:40,360 --> 01:19:45,480 embrace and it's pretty cool just seeing how vast it is and um the most recent thing they've been 866 01:19:45,480 --> 01:19:51,240 doing is uh abaddon has been allying with vashtor the archethane by harrying the imperium in the 867 01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:56,840 arcs of omen campaign which is the most recent book as time of recording or book series and that's 868 01:19:56,840 --> 01:20:01,880 more or less the black legion unless uh ed have you got anything else you wanted to add to uh 869 01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:08,280 i have a couple of uh just thoughts in general about the legion and abaddon 870 01:20:08,280 --> 01:20:13,400 um and life in general make sure you have your vitamins boys and girls 871 01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:21,080 but um abaddon himself even though we like have talked him up quite a bit we have to unfortunately 872 01:20:21,080 --> 01:20:25,480 he said that gw do kind of treat him like a punching bag a little bit in the lore so 873 01:20:26,280 --> 01:20:30,280 you might wonder why he's not as loved it's because a lot of the times he's just 874 01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:36,680 big bad who then will uh teleport away at the last minute unfortunately a couple of times but 875 01:20:36,680 --> 01:20:43,480 and i'll say that abaddon is not incompetent he's a very good warrior but then in my opinion he's 876 01:20:43,480 --> 01:20:49,800 kind of the reason he the chaos allow him to be war masters because he's the perfect puppet for them 877 01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:57,800 where horus like almost destroyed like you know it's the joke where like it took abaddon 13 black 878 01:20:57,800 --> 01:21:06,760 crusades and it took horus like what seven years but abaddon is perfect because the war and the 879 01:21:06,760 --> 01:21:13,160 state of the imperium is exactly how the chaos gods i think want it where it's anarchy they don't 880 01:21:13,160 --> 01:21:18,840 really want abaddon to win even though he's like black legion and the forces of chaos are 881 01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:25,320 you know enormous you know hundreds of thousands and thousands of like space chaos space marines 882 01:21:25,320 --> 01:21:30,600 like attacking imperial space and corrupting worlds they don't really want it to win because 883 01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:36,840 in like a lot their power is drawn from the misery and emotions of humanity so abaddon's like the 884 01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:43,640 perfect attack dog where he's just good enough to like i guess you know destroy kadia to also 885 01:21:43,640 --> 01:21:49,800 kadia took a lot like took basically the forces of chaos to destroy one world so the imperium are not 886 01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:56,520 like um on the brink yeah they're not on the brink of destruction the imperium it's just they can't 887 01:21:56,520 --> 01:22:02,840 be everywhere at once and abaddon's perfect where he's just he's enough to like cause 888 01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:11,240 you literally chaos and catastrophe but he's not he's not of the primark level genius where he will 889 01:22:11,240 --> 01:22:16,280 end yeah end the imperium in one go he's the perfect thing to keep the car in the imperium 890 01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:23,160 because then we've got the end times for 40k and that would be dreadful yeah agreed i can't stress 891 01:22:23,160 --> 01:22:28,440 enough how much i disagree with those statements uh oh no you know but no that's fair because i 892 01:22:28,440 --> 01:22:35,640 think the problem is abaddon gets mean to death so these things become like canon lore the zeitgeist 893 01:22:35,640 --> 01:22:40,360 like for example this idea that the chaos gods don't want the imperium to fall i don't think 894 01:22:40,360 --> 01:22:47,560 that's true so the the the law from gw is pretty clear and that the chaos gods want to claim every 895 01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:52,600 every realm every single thing has to be pure ruin and the idea that you won't have disease and 896 01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:59,160 pestilence and uh you know pleasure and if the galaxy falls into ruin that's actually 897 01:22:59,160 --> 01:23:04,920 i don't think that's clear at all so that's what i proper an idea um because of the great game 898 01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:10,120 each one of the chaos gods wants to be the winner so essentially what they're doing is min-maxing 899 01:23:10,120 --> 01:23:13,800 until they get the perfect victory and so they're not going to just win straight away they're going 900 01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:19,560 to be like no i want a perfect you know perfect prestige cinch victory so i have to make sure 901 01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:23,560 all my lines across to my t-sit site yeah we can't just instantly win we have to make sure 902 01:23:23,560 --> 01:23:27,800 that it's my win and i have to make sure that abaddon's doing what i want to do so every time 903 01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:31,400 he does something that the other gods want to do i need to push him in the direction of what i want 904 01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:37,080 and so it's like postponing the end of the great game but also trying to tailor it to their own 905 01:23:37,080 --> 01:23:43,080 favor i also i do have to say i do kind of think he's i like the idea of him like saying that he 906 01:23:43,080 --> 01:23:50,280 uses chaos as a tool but i ultimately think he's foolish to think that he's the one in control i 907 01:23:50,280 --> 01:23:54,680 think he i think the chaos gods are like they're like stepped back a little bit but they very much 908 01:23:54,680 --> 01:24:01,320 could at any point go chaos spawn like they could do what they want so what the chaos gods are not 909 01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:06,920 of infinite power so they they can't necessarily just go chaos sport these things are not like 910 01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:12,120 eagerly defined so one of the things that when we actually look at the lore that we have like the 911 01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:16,920 idea that abaddon is not a kind of control and it's he can never be controlled perfectly valid 912 01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:23,960 theory it's not actually necessarily true so like i say the biggest retcon we've ever had to 40k 913 01:24:23,960 --> 01:24:29,640 is the horus lupical is not some puppet of the chaos gods or as lupical is very much in control 914 01:24:29,640 --> 01:24:35,800 of the chaos gods and they are trying to elevate him to be a chaos god above them it's it's a 915 01:24:35,800 --> 01:24:41,000 phenomenon so the idea this is an impossibility i don't actually buy it's perfectly valid theory 916 01:24:41,000 --> 01:24:46,600 but doesn't make sense i mean when we talk about abaddon failing for 30 black crusades it always 917 01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:53,320 surprises me when people say this because this is talked about many times in the law that abaddon had 918 01:24:53,320 --> 01:24:59,480 specific goals with each black crusade each black crusade also makes the black legion more powerful 919 01:24:59,480 --> 01:25:06,360 comparing abaddon to horus is not really fair because horus planet like nine legions to start 920 01:25:06,360 --> 01:25:11,000 with like it's just it's just a completely different comparison and the the thing that 921 01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:17,240 abaddon is very adamant on is that horus was a fool because horus is basically kind of like a 922 01:25:17,240 --> 01:25:21,240 demon prince by the end of the horus heresies probably the easiest way to live in it the reason 923 01:25:21,240 --> 01:25:26,760 that's a terrible idea is because just as we see with all of the demon primarchs the reason the 924 01:25:26,760 --> 01:25:31,080 demon primarchs haven't done much over the last last 10 000 years is because it's very hard to 925 01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:37,000 bring them into real space and they also don't really care you lose interest in reality when 926 01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:42,840 you are all of a sudden based in real space and so abaddon cannot fully accept all of these gifts 927 01:25:42,840 --> 01:25:48,840 of chaos and so he has to he has to stay mortal and because that's the only way you can get be 928 01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:53,960 the only way you can get a true victory horus would never have gotten a true victory even if 929 01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:59,720 terror had fallen so abaddon is actually far more aggressive with what he's had to work with and 930 01:25:59,720 --> 01:26:03,880 within the context of the setting that is what i think generally what characters think of him 931 01:26:03,880 --> 01:26:08,760 we need to put you on a versus video for abaddon because man can argue for that that's very 932 01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:14,360 convincing there was a it was a fan story so it's not canon but i thought it was very well like short 933 01:26:14,360 --> 01:26:20,440 little written story uh that says like abaddon could have like at least you know with the little 934 01:26:20,440 --> 01:26:25,560 fan story and it's like abaddon could have sure the first black crusade could have crippled the 935 01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:31,480 imperium but there were six living prime arcs if he were just still right back from the get-go 936 01:26:31,480 --> 01:26:38,680 let's start horus round two forces were scattered it was the 13th he was building up over the course 937 01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:45,720 of 13 crusades to properly get his forces together build them up more so than they were in the 938 01:26:45,720 --> 01:26:50,760 shattered remnants after the heresy he also he also in terms of like you know the crimson path 939 01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:56,440 it's not something that is so that the great rift is not achieved with i would say it's not 940 01:26:56,440 --> 01:27:00,760 officially declared it's because of the fall of kadia although most people reasonably assume it is 941 01:27:00,760 --> 01:27:06,520 the largest contributing factor however what they talk about in my balisarius called the great work 942 01:27:06,520 --> 01:27:11,560 is that the kadia is not the only kadia there are many planets that are like kadia that have this 943 01:27:11,560 --> 01:27:17,720 shit ton of blackstone on and oh what do you know it turns out during many of the black crusades 944 01:27:17,720 --> 01:27:22,840 as a side quest abaddon went and destroyed these worlds abaddon had specific goals the first one 945 01:27:22,840 --> 01:27:27,400 of course we have the tower of silence where abaddon gets dracnian a weapon that he needs 946 01:27:27,400 --> 01:27:32,680 because he because this weapon has this demon has said it will one day be the death of the emperor 947 01:27:32,680 --> 01:27:39,080 so each of the black crusades has a specific goal in mind and he does them over time and 948 01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:45,240 it what we'll totally say is that the problem with black life we have with advancing the story as 949 01:27:45,240 --> 01:27:51,000 they do now is that now it does it will start to make abaddon look weak because like where we've 950 01:27:51,000 --> 01:27:57,640 got it now is that um abaddon got epimetheus he got dracnian he just he got the great rift he's 951 01:27:57,640 --> 01:28:02,520 got he basically could get vigilance if he wanted to he's got all of these things he's got the arc 952 01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:07,000 of omen and vashtor and they've got this key and now they can like make their own web way whatever 953 01:28:07,000 --> 01:28:11,960 the fuck it is they're going to do at a certain point we will all get to the stage where we're 954 01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:18,120 like sorry why isn't abaddon a terror like what else does he what else could he possibly need 955 01:28:18,120 --> 01:28:23,560 and um it's going to start looking weird because i think narratively we're going to get to this 956 01:28:23,560 --> 01:28:30,600 point where it's like abaddon's just like this gatherer of stuff and it's like he's just got 957 01:28:30,600 --> 01:28:36,280 so many artifacts and so much power but i mean what is the point you you mentioned my boy epiphemius 958 01:28:36,280 --> 01:28:42,360 so i have to yeah i have to mention him the poor guy he he was a dark angel who was like he was in 959 01:28:42,360 --> 01:28:46,600 a black shield company in the horus heresy he was a knight errant during the horus heresy he got 960 01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:52,840 trapped in like a tomb for 10 000 years and came back during the pandrax campaign he got captured 961 01:28:52,840 --> 01:28:59,000 by abaddon so abaddon stuck him in the vengeful spirit then he he ripped his black carapace from 962 01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:05,480 his skin he sewed his his mouth and his eyes shut he cut out his tongue he he had fabius 963 01:29:05,480 --> 01:29:10,920 bile remove his progenoid gland then he like suspended him from the ceiling then he stitched 964 01:29:10,920 --> 01:29:16,680 two uh blanks to his body because he's a librarian he stitched two like like blanks to his body 965 01:29:17,480 --> 01:29:23,640 and then left him there to be tortured it's like oh that sucks like you don't want to be messing 966 01:29:23,640 --> 01:29:27,800 with abaddon like that if that's what he does to just like someone he needs information out like 967 01:29:27,800 --> 01:29:35,160 i do not want to be involved with him he is very scary it's very dark it is also the unfortunate 968 01:29:35,160 --> 01:29:41,720 reality of 40k is that you know something that when you mostly focus on the narrative is not 969 01:29:41,720 --> 01:29:46,040 something you really like to talk about but you kind of need to acknowledge it is that it is a 970 01:29:46,040 --> 01:29:51,560 war game setting and that if abaddon follows the narrative course that like it would probably make 971 01:29:51,560 --> 01:29:58,360 sense for him to eventually do it if he succeeds there's no more war game yeah exactly you cannot 972 01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:03,800 like it's like how no faction can ultimately succeed because then you don't have a war game 973 01:30:03,800 --> 01:30:09,000 anymore yeah they need that's the thing they need to narratively come up with a way because this is 974 01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:13,880 the thing like the 30 black crusades i can rationalize like you know i'm an abaddon 975 01:30:13,880 --> 01:30:19,560 synth but i can rationalize why the 13 black crusades are not complete failures and why abaddon 976 01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:24,280 is not this massive failure is a lot of people believe and i get it trust me but like there's 977 01:30:24,280 --> 01:30:30,520 only so much he can be that full that where he doesn't for reasons he won't get to terror 978 01:30:30,520 --> 01:30:35,240 someone someone else needs to get thrown a bone yeah why they can fight them because he's just 979 01:30:35,240 --> 01:30:39,960 been hoarding to be fair though because there are so many factions there's always the fact of 980 01:30:39,960 --> 01:30:44,680 everyone's scan uh plans get scuppered by everyone else's plans and they overlap it's like like the 981 01:30:44,680 --> 01:30:50,280 leagues of votan park a massive ship in the way move that out of the way like sorry what we're 982 01:30:50,280 --> 01:30:56,040 just mining a planet you stupid squats and then what did you call me and then that starts a new 983 01:30:56,040 --> 01:31:01,000 book series and then they get eaten by the the tyranids and then the necrons are like i'm trying 984 01:31:01,000 --> 01:31:06,360 to build an apartment block for my future like metal children you're in the way and then that 985 01:31:06,360 --> 01:31:10,680 starts a new book series and then gilliam and goes what's going on here and then the lion goes 986 01:31:10,680 --> 01:31:15,320 gilliam and you've been sleeping with the elder and that starts anew and it's like it keeps going 987 01:31:15,320 --> 01:31:20,840 and going and going yeah i mean definitely there was no reason the necrons aren't going to win 988 01:31:20,840 --> 01:31:28,200 like there was just like the silent king is so absurdly powerful in the books that there's no 989 01:31:28,200 --> 01:31:35,400 reason he won't just turn off all life like it's in their neck there's the the tyranids of course 990 01:31:35,400 --> 01:31:41,320 definitely should win when they get the chaos of course is gonna make the crudging path but like 991 01:31:42,520 --> 01:31:47,080 it's monster monstrous there's a real good reason and it's a very green reason 992 01:31:47,080 --> 01:31:53,080 yeah the necrons can it's an orange galaxy we're all just living in it yeah but the necrons have 993 01:31:53,080 --> 01:31:56,840 cyber Alzheimer's so they're not as big of a threat they're like i can't remember where i am 994 01:31:56,840 --> 01:32:03,720 it's like go back in your tomb it's fine i does say as well about the black legion um so if you're 995 01:32:03,720 --> 01:32:09,880 like kind of newish to warhammer or you know a little bit about it um lore wise as well they're 996 01:32:09,880 --> 01:32:16,760 considered one of the most competent chaos space marine legions like a lot of them are either like 997 01:32:16,760 --> 01:32:23,080 for the last 10 000 years been on the run in a way or like the undersupplied or the nightlords 998 01:32:23,080 --> 01:32:26,600 these are the biggest guys in the setting they have the most stuff they have the most men 999 01:32:26,600 --> 01:32:29,960 and they work together and they have lots of people from different legions bolstering their 1000 01:32:29,960 --> 01:32:36,760 weaknesses so that helps they also um like i even said like they they being like chaos undivided 1001 01:32:36,760 --> 01:32:42,760 is generally kind of a slight blessing because you're a little bit you're less affected by 1002 01:32:42,760 --> 01:32:48,280 in a way the specific god's corruption like if you're corrupted by a nulg you you know you're 1003 01:32:48,280 --> 01:32:53,480 slow you'll kind of only focus on spreading plague whereas like chaos undivided it's more of like an 1004 01:32:53,480 --> 01:32:59,880 actual power boon so that the chaos the black legion themselves like they can often complete 1005 01:32:59,880 --> 01:33:05,480 missions and then destroy worlds like much quicker with like less men because they can still function 1006 01:33:05,480 --> 01:33:12,120 much more like actual space marines rather than like a like i imagine a single like death 1007 01:33:12,120 --> 01:33:17,480 guard marine is probably more powerful but in terms of like overall the war like the actual 1008 01:33:17,480 --> 01:33:22,840 war going on a black legion are much more competent well it's like you can you can kind of 1009 01:33:22,840 --> 01:33:27,960 double dip with it like say you're a sorcerer in the black legion like all name character business 1010 01:33:27,960 --> 01:33:33,480 aside that given a random sorcerer from the black legion is pretty much guaranteed not going to be 1011 01:33:33,480 --> 01:33:38,680 as good at it as a thousand sons is but that black legionnaire is also going to be a lot more 1012 01:33:38,680 --> 01:33:45,480 durable you can arm wrestle a lot better like you know you can kind of double dip from all the chaos 1013 01:33:45,480 --> 01:33:51,160 gods you're not limited to just one imagine a uh a black legion form a thousand son who embraces 1014 01:33:51,160 --> 01:33:56,840 corn then you go like what's that like oh that's fun idea or like a death guard who becomes laneshi 1015 01:33:56,840 --> 01:34:02,440 like whoa that's crazy and i mentioned like the sort the chaos sorcerers in the black legion like 1016 01:34:02,440 --> 01:34:07,480 allow them to essentially respect their character traits when they're like i follow corn now now i'm 1017 01:34:07,480 --> 01:34:14,440 a fan of scenes like could you stop doing this no i'm playing around i'm experimenting okay fine 1018 01:34:14,440 --> 01:34:20,680 i'll finish on one idea i do have which i think will be interesting which is obviously the chaos 1019 01:34:20,680 --> 01:34:26,360 primarchs are and obviously no you know original primarchs you know loyalist ones are returning 1020 01:34:26,360 --> 01:34:32,360 over like the many additions i have a feeling like it would be a really good idea to have 1021 01:34:32,360 --> 01:34:37,560 when law guard returns there's a kind of chaos civil war for the role of war master 1022 01:34:38,360 --> 01:34:42,680 and the idea of it being like there are those who are like the black legion where they don't want 1023 01:34:42,680 --> 01:34:48,920 to serve a primarch but then there are like people who generally like serving chaos themselves they're 1024 01:34:48,920 --> 01:34:54,920 like ah law guard isn't a demon ascended primarch the word bearers are the only legion that isn't 1025 01:34:54,920 --> 01:34:59,640 the black legion that is like still in full strength and that would make sense like is the 1026 01:34:59,640 --> 01:35:04,440 only og legion of the traitors that is still like running um like the nightlords don't count 1027 01:35:04,440 --> 01:35:10,440 because they're too small but you know i so i've got a thing where i hope it will be like a abaddon 1028 01:35:10,440 --> 01:35:18,520 versus um law guard in a way where it's like it's more of a cold war rather than a um like hot war 1029 01:35:18,520 --> 01:35:25,400 where like essentially there's a they're vying for that position of you know chosen by chaos too 1030 01:35:25,400 --> 01:35:30,200 and it'll make it it'll make it interesting i'm just imagining like abaddon kind of baiting the 1031 01:35:30,200 --> 01:35:36,280 dark angels to fight the word bears like keep going come on come on and dark angels like i'm 1032 01:35:36,280 --> 01:35:40,280 gonna leave you now throw a couple of bones just ambush them it'll be a really good way to make i 1033 01:35:40,280 --> 01:35:46,680 think in a way you could give abaddon like that much needed like i guess victory if you know i 1034 01:35:46,680 --> 01:35:51,480 mean where it's like abaddon's always fighting but it's it's all about the imperium just holds if 1035 01:35:51,480 --> 01:35:57,400 you know i mean or if like he does win it's like just by the like even kadia if like it was just 1036 01:35:57,400 --> 01:36:04,120 by the the very last like act if you know i mean i think or even if if perturabo allies with 1037 01:36:04,120 --> 01:36:08,280 vashtor and then they clashed with abaddon and then you could like you could dredge up some of 1038 01:36:08,280 --> 01:36:13,160 the history he had during the siege of terror with perturabo using him and him going i think 1039 01:36:13,160 --> 01:36:18,520 that chaos is cringe inherently so i am chaos undivided but i'm not really chaos undivided 1040 01:36:18,520 --> 01:36:23,160 he's like you're half in half out just like horus what did you say and then they can have a scrap 1041 01:36:23,160 --> 01:36:27,080 and then illumin and the lion are just looking confused like what are they doing now it could 1042 01:36:27,080 --> 01:36:31,960 be it could be a good opportunity to like give abaddon and the black legion some character 1043 01:36:31,960 --> 01:36:37,000 development in the sense where the black legion are very cool but a lot of them seem quite 1044 01:36:37,000 --> 01:36:40,520 because it's almost like the ultramanians where they are cool but a lot of it seem 1045 01:36:41,160 --> 01:36:46,360 very generic if you know i mean where there's not as much flavor to them until you really 1046 01:36:46,360 --> 01:36:51,480 break it no no but you know like they're treated like that rather than what so actually one of the 1047 01:36:51,480 --> 01:36:56,120 reasons like to your last three points actually very similar to that where and even what the 1048 01:36:56,120 --> 01:37:00,680 ezekari on so one of the reasons i love the ezekari is because they go the other way i think they are 1049 01:37:00,680 --> 01:37:05,400 they're so characterful to the degree that like you know you talk about a thousand sons or a 1050 01:37:05,400 --> 01:37:11,240 thousand sons character who worships korn like all like there are characters like the demonifuge 1051 01:37:11,240 --> 01:37:15,800 and these characters within 40k that do the opposite of what they're supposed to do 1052 01:37:15,800 --> 01:37:22,440 and all the ezekarion kind of do this right so like iskander k-on is you know you talk about 1053 01:37:22,440 --> 01:37:28,440 powerful sorcerers he is in aramans trilogy also and he is sent to the second tomb araman he's 1054 01:37:28,440 --> 01:37:34,920 that powerful he brings magnus the red to his knees like that's how strong and i assume it 1055 01:37:34,920 --> 01:37:40,920 will be through kind of a sneaky way like learning his true name or something like that but still 1056 01:37:40,920 --> 01:37:48,280 very impressive feat and like then you have a leo binoculars who is a havoc he's got a he's got a 1057 01:37:48,280 --> 01:37:52,280 heavy boulder like if you've ever seen the world eaters range if you're a fan of the tables up 1058 01:37:52,280 --> 01:37:57,480 you'll notice they don't have many guns like he's a good contradiction and by definition 1059 01:37:58,040 --> 01:38:03,960 telamakon is a swordsman but he spends the majority of all the half the first book kind 1060 01:38:03,960 --> 01:38:10,600 of being humiliated and being you know made to look an absolute fool by iskander so they're 1061 01:38:10,600 --> 01:38:14,680 all kind of contradictions in terms and that's one of the things i think adds a lot of a lot of 1062 01:38:14,680 --> 01:38:22,040 character i think yeah the the the thing in the novels i think they have a lot more character 1063 01:38:22,040 --> 01:38:25,720 on the surface oh definitely yeah they didn't have it and the ultramen have really liked that 1064 01:38:25,720 --> 01:38:31,080 like the ultramen have so much character in your read like you have destroyer squads inheriting 1065 01:38:31,080 --> 01:38:37,000 you have nice from the crag you have um katos and kairos the after yurio ventress as well is genuinely 1066 01:38:37,000 --> 01:38:41,960 really interesting yurio ventress is like again like so like the opposite of an ultra ultra 1067 01:38:41,960 --> 01:38:46,280 mission big he gets kind of heavily punished and has to go on a big fucking quest and it's 1068 01:38:46,280 --> 01:38:52,440 dark as hell but like and then it becomes a legion of the dams like yeah the black legion do that 1069 01:38:52,440 --> 01:38:58,200 very well i think um one of the other things you mentioned oh yeah lorgar so um one of the things 1070 01:38:58,200 --> 01:39:02,280 really interesting mention i think for people listening who wants to know about the black 1071 01:39:02,280 --> 01:39:09,000 legion so abaddon has met with all of the demon primarchs and all of them have sworn to him and 1072 01:39:09,000 --> 01:39:13,960 again this is one of the reasons this goes back to like why abaddon is so important compared to 1073 01:39:13,960 --> 01:39:19,160 someone like chorus the chaos gods don't the chaos demon primarchs a lot of them don't really have a 1074 01:39:19,160 --> 01:39:24,840 choice because if their patron supports abaddon they kind of have to but they still have a bit 1075 01:39:24,840 --> 01:39:29,960 of independence and they all kind of agree to support abaddon in the end so um you know per 1076 01:39:29,960 --> 01:39:34,200 drabo originally he doesn't want to he's like abaddon or it is first captain he calls him an 1077 01:39:34,200 --> 01:39:40,520 angry whelp i remember from um yeah uh lord of silence no the one where they take on the white 1078 01:39:40,520 --> 01:39:45,800 consoles what's that book called is it laws of silence yeah his lord of silence um and yeah but 1079 01:39:45,800 --> 01:39:49,880 then he wins him round leaves him like a powerful artifact that he was always wanted a special 1080 01:39:49,880 --> 01:39:54,360 present and he does meet lorgar lorgar actually is one of the only demon primarchs who's very 1081 01:39:54,360 --> 01:40:00,600 happy to serve abaddon because he's just like loves chaos and abaddon spreading chaos um per drabo 1082 01:40:00,600 --> 01:40:03,960 gives him a lot of demon engines that's where the demon engines come from most of them is from 1083 01:40:03,960 --> 01:40:09,640 perturabo gifting them to abaddon to the degree that what the reason mortarion ends up getting 1084 01:40:09,640 --> 01:40:14,600 like the plague burst crawler is because abaddon then i think i think is either that the play was 1085 01:40:14,600 --> 01:40:20,440 for another one where he actually gives it to mortarion um with in terms of being a competent 1086 01:40:20,440 --> 01:40:29,080 so it's said that abaddon fights all of uh uh angron's demonic champions and if you've read um 1087 01:40:30,680 --> 01:40:36,600 emperor's chosen whatever the one with the gray knights versus space horses um like abaddon has 1088 01:40:36,600 --> 01:40:43,800 12 bloodthirsters so abaddon takes on 12 bloodthirsters and wins like it's it's yeah and 1089 01:40:43,800 --> 01:40:48,760 you're missing yeah magnus we've already spoken about and fulgur and this is one of those things 1090 01:40:48,760 --> 01:40:54,040 where black library authors mention things in like slight passages and then never bring up again it's 1091 01:40:54,040 --> 01:41:00,120 said that abaddon gifts fulgrim a vessel that allows him to create an avatar of slanesh and 1092 01:41:00,120 --> 01:41:05,960 then this is just never mentioned and so uh yeah he kind of brings them all around over time so 1093 01:41:06,760 --> 01:41:12,360 like yeah they're all happy to serve him and in theory that we actually know who abaddon's dad is 1094 01:41:12,360 --> 01:41:18,200 now but there was always a theory that abaddon was horus's kind of cloned son and one of the 1095 01:41:18,200 --> 01:41:24,040 reasons that is of course his size but the other thing is he is phenomenally charismatic and that's 1096 01:41:24,040 --> 01:41:29,000 something that like huron blackheart doesn't have who's often the person that people tell us 1097 01:41:29,000 --> 01:41:33,720 maybe take abaddon's place and if you've read the latest um huron blackheart novel you'll know 1098 01:41:33,720 --> 01:41:39,080 huron blackheart barely has control of the red corsets and um yeah it doesn't go too well 1099 01:41:40,360 --> 01:41:46,120 i still want him to clown on lorg are they yeah i would yeah because the black legion do have that 1100 01:41:46,120 --> 01:41:53,800 uh best of both worlds uh you know chaos is my weapon but then i'm not as as directly linked 1101 01:41:53,800 --> 01:41:58,040 i like the idea of like you know how like gilliam and has kind of been besieged on all sides where 1102 01:41:58,040 --> 01:42:02,360 it's like there's the tyranids there's the god blight series there was magnus being involved 1103 01:42:02,360 --> 01:42:06,840 blah blah so to have abaddon surrounded where it's like you're fighting the ultramarines and 1104 01:42:06,840 --> 01:42:11,640 the dark angels and lorg are's men and perdra like if there was just like a bit where the the the 1105 01:42:11,640 --> 01:42:16,520 the french alliances he forged were just breaking down and he has the biggest of all the war bands 1106 01:42:16,520 --> 01:42:20,600 but he has he's surrounded like it would give the black legion a chance to actually have some 1107 01:42:20,600 --> 01:42:27,000 really cool stories without progressing their war against the imperium and it's again that whole 1108 01:42:27,000 --> 01:42:31,800 all the overlapping factions getting at each other's throats makes it prologue yeah like 1109 01:42:31,800 --> 01:42:37,640 supposedly they besiege comorah like that could be such a long series of books at some point but 1110 01:42:37,640 --> 01:42:42,360 they definitely need to sorry we talked about earlier how it's all because i think you're 1111 01:42:42,360 --> 01:42:49,880 totally right they need to properly make it clear if abaddon can take on a primarch so certainly to 1112 01:42:49,880 --> 01:42:53,800 begin with it was never the greatest source he's never the greatest warrior although he was very 1113 01:42:53,800 --> 01:42:57,960 very good but certainly not the swordsman of someone like siegismund then we know he gets 1114 01:42:57,960 --> 01:43:03,240 dragged me in which is just an op weapon it's stupidly powerful and he gets loads and loads 1115 01:43:03,240 --> 01:43:08,760 of gifts from chaos and to this degree i've had to talk to collin about it in the day one thing that 1116 01:43:08,760 --> 01:43:13,160 is quite significant is when he fights manias cowlgar but the reason that's significant because 1117 01:43:13,160 --> 01:43:19,160 if you are someone who's used the war hunger 40k manias cowlgar used to be like the imperium he 1118 01:43:19,160 --> 01:43:27,000 used to be the the poster boy of the poster boys he was everywhere there's some very controversial 1119 01:43:27,000 --> 01:43:32,520 statements about him the main one being that he was sent to be the leech lord of the spiritual 1120 01:43:32,520 --> 01:43:42,360 leech yes and yeah so he and abaddon actually fights it like this it's like 40k was building 1121 01:43:42,360 --> 01:43:46,120 up to them fighting in terms of how the models were made and the art was made and all these kind 1122 01:43:46,120 --> 01:43:52,280 of things and they do finally fight on vigilance you know the chapter master of the ultramarine 1123 01:43:52,280 --> 01:43:57,240 who is a more important character than the prime except the primarch of the ultramarines and not 1124 01:43:57,240 --> 01:44:02,440 only does abaddon win which is a very 40k thing the bad guy actually clearly wins he also 1125 01:44:02,440 --> 01:44:08,120 menses manias cowlgar up when they actually go through the fight i think cowlgar gets in like 1126 01:44:08,120 --> 01:44:12,840 two punches and then abaddon tears him apart and it's not just because of dragon the end like the 1127 01:44:12,840 --> 01:44:19,240 talon of horus is um yeah he rips him apart as well with that and uh yeah because in the the talon 1128 01:44:19,240 --> 01:44:23,960 of horus it's like it imbues an aura of like because it's because it's wounded the emperor 1129 01:44:23,960 --> 01:44:28,920 it's like a special weapon where it's like there's something about it that's eerie and malevolent 1130 01:44:28,920 --> 01:44:35,000 and it's yeah talon of horus is bad yeah i need to i think we need to see abaddon 1131 01:44:35,800 --> 01:44:42,920 um and the black legion themselves like in part like fight like what it would be the word bearer 1132 01:44:42,920 --> 01:44:47,240 is um just just to finish it off like the word bearer is like complete fanatical devotion to 1133 01:44:47,240 --> 01:44:53,240 chaos just to show them like how they are like the contrast between what is like yeah i want 1134 01:44:53,240 --> 01:44:58,200 abaddon to kill core pharaoh and he's like i'm the only one left now all the first captains are 1135 01:44:58,200 --> 01:45:04,360 dead i'm the one left hooray i think it does seem like the dawn of fire series is kind of leading 1136 01:45:04,360 --> 01:45:13,320 up to a big word word bearers kind of return because um yeah like they are kind of they think 1137 01:45:13,320 --> 01:45:17,640 books are kind of separate but they're a consistent villain in a lot of them like behind the scenes 1138 01:45:17,640 --> 01:45:22,600 type thing yeah we need like we just need more novels in general for a lot of these characters 1139 01:45:22,600 --> 01:45:29,000 because the black legion ones are pretty pretty good and they have much more um like a lot of 1140 01:45:29,000 --> 01:45:35,160 the chaos stories uh often like ah like it's how the gods corrupt them but the black legion one is 1141 01:45:35,160 --> 01:45:39,560 just like they know they're the bad guys but they do behave like actual space marines and they have 1142 01:45:39,560 --> 01:45:45,000 like brotherhood and stuff like that so if you do uh i'm a sucker for that if you're uh if you do like 1143 01:45:45,000 --> 01:45:51,160 those listening if you do like um that level of like brotherhood and stuff like that um yeah just 1144 01:45:51,160 --> 01:45:57,160 black legion are for you uh does anyone have any like closing thoughts or statements they want on 1145 01:45:57,160 --> 01:46:08,200 the black legion i guess uh uh on the black legion in a whole uh i very much enjoyed the trend of them 1146 01:46:08,200 --> 01:46:20,120 being the fodder in warhammer games i know i do i do apologize uh and uh uh the bolt gun man 1147 01:46:20,120 --> 01:46:26,520 melham kato just slinging around plasma blast and blow them to hell very fun i do have a lot of 1148 01:46:26,520 --> 01:46:32,360 sympathy for them because they obviously being the bad guys as they are they obviously have to lose 1149 01:46:32,360 --> 01:46:37,160 most of the time but it's it's a genuine writing challenge and i assume it's something that 1150 01:46:37,160 --> 01:46:41,800 i always wonder what these conversations look like but around the the table as it were when 1151 01:46:41,800 --> 01:46:45,640 black loran pre-talk they must have these conversations of how do we have the black legion 1152 01:46:45,640 --> 01:46:52,760 of the black legion not win again but not look shit yeah be the most intimidating legion but then 1153 01:46:52,760 --> 01:47:01,320 their victories are like upcadia yeah yeah but with so with with that being said though you know i 1154 01:47:01,320 --> 01:47:07,720 hope i'll extend the olive branch with the with the next half of what i was going to say uh i know 1155 01:47:07,720 --> 01:47:15,400 i'm i inhabit the sillier side of making warhammer content uh and will continue to make fun of 1156 01:47:15,400 --> 01:47:21,480 abaddon in the black league but that being said uh if anyone if you play tabletop and you know 1157 01:47:21,480 --> 01:47:27,560 you're on chaos and everyone anyone goes like you know makes fun just makes fun abaddon in general 1158 01:47:27,560 --> 01:47:32,680 just play him on the tabletop and they will stop laughing very quickly because he is a blender 1159 01:47:33,720 --> 01:47:40,120 uh i don't believe you know my thing my thing is as it is with everything which is just 1160 01:47:40,120 --> 01:47:46,440 just read the books over reading the memes if you can or watch our videos 1161 01:47:47,960 --> 01:47:54,440 or watch videos because i think these things get so so spun out like you know like the 13 1162 01:47:54,440 --> 01:47:59,720 back crusades is probably one of the best examples because it's you know it's explained multiple 1163 01:47:59,720 --> 01:48:04,440 times why there are 13 back crusades why they work or failures but still if you go up to 1164 01:48:04,440 --> 01:48:10,840 an ngw store and you say it's happened a big thing but oh my god yes and it's like no the book well 1165 01:48:10,840 --> 01:48:16,360 i will say as someone who is now in a store the horus heresy books and it's almost done the siege 1166 01:48:16,360 --> 01:48:21,240 of terror books and some other ones talent of horus is still one of my favorite of all the books 1167 01:48:21,240 --> 01:48:25,480 at least the audio books so i would say there's only two of the black legion books i think talent 1168 01:48:25,480 --> 01:48:30,760 of horus and then it's called black legion like they're just a really interesting change of pace 1169 01:48:30,760 --> 01:48:37,560 where it's you know it's a chaos story but it's not moustached world in chaos per se it's more 1170 01:48:37,560 --> 01:48:42,040 you get to understand the motivations of abaddon and his crew and it's a and it's a really really 1171 01:48:42,040 --> 01:48:47,720 interesting uh read or listen so go and check out at least the talent of horus it's really good 1172 01:48:48,360 --> 01:48:55,640 with uh okay at the at the very least acknowledge when someone is making a joke it's a joke 1173 01:48:55,640 --> 01:49:01,480 don't take it as gospel like for the love of god if you hear me make fun of them i'm on my channel 1174 01:49:01,480 --> 01:49:08,760 i am making a joke well hammer is well hammer is funny too like it's it's um caricature as well 1175 01:49:08,760 --> 01:49:15,480 at some parts so yeah it is designed to for toy soldiers yeah we're like grown men talking about 1176 01:49:15,480 --> 01:49:19,720 plastic toys so and you're listening you're listening to four grown men talk about plastic 1177 01:49:19,720 --> 01:49:26,280 toys so who's the real idiot what does that say about you yeah call you out everyone um with that 1178 01:49:26,280 --> 01:49:32,520 being said um thank you ed uh thank you so much for joining us um if people are listening to me 1179 01:49:32,520 --> 01:49:39,960 simp for abaddon i hope i have served him well i'm sorry i would say compelling compelling arguments 1180 01:49:39,960 --> 01:49:44,360 we needed someone to really come and do it uh you know we've got the you know we've never 1181 01:49:44,360 --> 01:49:47,400 won four people on the podcast just agreeing with each other right that was that would be 1182 01:49:47,400 --> 01:49:52,520 fucking boring if it was just oh no we don't is upgrades guillem and he's so good i love it 1183 01:49:52,520 --> 01:49:56,360 that's that you know it's not what you want you want someone to that's what i'm here for 1184 01:50:00,520 --> 01:50:05,480 well thank you so much for joining us um if you are listening and you somehow aren't familiar with 1185 01:50:05,480 --> 01:50:13,240 his channel it's a sandman of terror he makes really good uh 40k content very um i was say the 1186 01:50:13,240 --> 01:50:18,360 word i think poignant in a way that you make um content where like i don't think everyone else is 1187 01:50:18,360 --> 01:50:23,960 talking about a lot of the topics that you cover and uh he's got a great channel and you know what 1188 01:50:23,960 --> 01:50:29,320 i have this today actually where i do talk about some quite niche things and so like i have i've 1189 01:50:29,320 --> 01:50:33,720 had quite a few comments where people are like what fan fiction is this and i'm just like hey 1190 01:50:34,520 --> 01:50:39,400 this is real law i didn't just think i'm just making these things up so i have to cite my sources 1191 01:50:39,400 --> 01:50:45,000 so i've never probably talked about anything else yeah and um go check his channel out it's good 1192 01:50:45,000 --> 01:50:51,960 and hopefully we'll have him on again to like either represent or like attack uh some of the 1193 01:50:51,960 --> 01:51:00,280 factions any factions you particularly hate in the moment oh you know i do say elves this is the 1194 01:51:00,280 --> 01:51:08,440 thing i can enjoy most most factions um yeah the thing is i'd love my friend i'm a friend of mine 1195 01:51:08,440 --> 01:51:14,680 charlie plays elves and i do love to hate on them it's just funny um yeah but there's no one i 1196 01:51:14,680 --> 01:51:22,200 really dislike i don't know the second legion we'll go with that yeah okay good choice uh 1197 01:51:23,960 --> 01:51:29,240 thank you so much for listening and for watching uh hopefully you enjoyed our little discussion 1198 01:51:29,240 --> 01:51:37,080 slash foray into the black legion the kind of poster boys of chaos uh themselves and uh we'll 1199 01:51:37,080 --> 01:51:43,400 catch you all hopefully next time again check out uh sandman's channel it's really good and 1200 01:51:43,400 --> 01:52:09,640 thank you all for listening peace take care everyone i love you 1201 01:52:13,400 --> 01:52:14,360 you