Hello ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, welcome
back to Lore Crimes. Hello! Evening everyone,
evening. It's been a while, it's been a while
since we did a versus match and I thought it
was about time we brought one back because it's
good fun. But I'm actually going to be sitting
this one out because I'm scared of losing again.
But we also have... Colin is away tonight because
of house stuff so he's kissing girls and it's
also in the UK it's in the middle of a bloody
storm which it mentions oh wow yeah it's stormy
um so if you do hear any like wishing noises
or rain be aware that's why uh but in this debate
we are we are trying to figure out what's better
old hammer or new hammer in the red corner discussing
old hammer we have eli deadlifts for the dark
gods and in the blue corner we have hal defending
new hammer the amber king or is he going to be
the amber defroned king we will see the duke
we'll see um i will warn you that um hal has
got a presentation for his part um but we're
going to do this fairly i've got a i've got a
little tau coin here So whoever the victor is
gets to pick who goes first and who goes second.
So you can either pick the Tau symbol or you
can pick, I think that's Shadow Sun. So who wants
Shadow Sun? Who wants Eli? I want the Tau symbol.
You want the Tau symbol? Three, two, one. Tau
symbol. Eli, you get to pick who goes first.
I'm raring, to be honest. If Hal wants to go
first, then he can go first. I have prepared
stuff to help me get in the mood, shall we say.
Well, speaking of which, I have a video ready,
apparently. So do you want me to press this when
you're ready to start and you'll just go over
the visuals? I'm going to voiceover. I have to
do an intro for this video, by the way. So as
in, like, you'll press play and I'll just start
talking, to be honest. Okay. Well, you have five
minutes. Let me just get my timer ready. I hope
everyone's excited. Oh, there we go. Mr. Mike
is excited. Fantastic. Okay. Let me just get
this all set up. Your time starts, Hal, in three,
two, one. Does it have music on it? No, I'm just
voicing it. Because from the moment I understood
the weakness of my argument, it disgusted me.
I crave the strength and certainty of nostalgia.
I aspire to the purity of the blessed copium.
You cling to old hammer. As if it did not kill
the old world. One day your crude fine cast you
call goated will fail you. And you will beg my
modern sculpts to save you. But I am already
saved. I bring you, ladies and gentlemen, the
most successful years of Warhammer 40k, boys.
All right. This is the intro. No, keep playing
it, keep playing it, Andy. I'm ready, I'm ready.
Warhammer, go. This is my time. No one knows
what the JD Vance means, thank you very much.
I certainly know what the JD Vance means. And
that one right there. My first argument for the
Brethren core is like modern 40k art. I'm not
going to let it speak for itself, to be honest,
at certain points. This shit is gorgeous, my
dudes. I know there's such a... heavy hit on
nostalgia for certain parts of warhammer art
i cannot knock that but you cannot disagree with
the things that come out for the horus heresy
modern 40k some modern 40k codexes eli won't
disagree here the genesee the cult art is iconic
we have dark angel ones that again dark angels
fully return to the setting in a way that which
we haven't you know appreciated before it's truly
really hard to get across how They've understood
the uniqueness in each faction. They've tuned
in to how much they love. Even in the Total War
franchise as well, everything now has an established
Warhammer look and its own unique faction rather
than a mismatch and jamble of things. Is it grimdark?
Is it goblin green? Base is fanatic. What the
hell is going on? Modern 40K has its own thing
going. The law, boys. We're here for the modern
law. There's no way anyone can knock the infinite
and divine. It's basically resurrected from their
private sleep. The Necrons are resurrected to
this absolute banger of a novel. Devastation
of Baal, again. You want space marines. You want
tyranids. You want perhaps the best experience
of both. Devastation of Baal is an absolutely
soul -hitting book. Again, in the modern 40K
landscape, the Dark Imperium trilogy, one we
actually have, you know, a sensible human being
is a book written by an adult, Mr. Guy Haley,
with Robute Guillemin, Mortarion getting it.
The Emperor is somehow not off the throne, but
he's doing stuff. Nate Crowley here again, coming
in with an absolute banger for Twice Dead King
Ruin. This again, Eli, you cannot say anything
about this book. This is perhaps the one, the
best. warhammer books in the entire setting pretty
hard to beat that and the saturnine horus heresy
saturnine is pretty i don't know how is is impossible
to write a better book like that in a series
i honestly don't know what abner is doing lords
of silence is the best chaos book ever written
it is the best chaos book ever written again
chris rate modern author Absolutely slap bang
nailing it. And if you read that, the Beckwin
series as well. If anyone has loved the Eisenhorn
series from before, it's still going to go. It
has the craziest stuff going on, which is the
things with the yellow King. There's actual,
like a proper world events, like changing scenario
that we're all involved in. We're in the mystery,
the elemental council. Again, Eli can't say anything
because the elemental council is goated. This
is like, Again, Shoshi, let Phil Kelly not touch
anything. Last few bits, the models. The models
are looking gorgeous, boys. The Primarch models.
Are you kidding me? The World Eater's coming
back. 30 seconds. This is a Primaris Marine here,
and that thing is gorgeous. Look at those Space
Wolf Terminators. Modern 4K Armies look nothing
like the old ones. They're actually on another
level. The Dark Angels releases. with even the
Inner Circle companions, the Lion, the Adeptus
Sororitas girls, all coming back in this brand
new launch, the Necron range. They didn't have
a Necron range as good as this until now. So
you're welcome for that. Silent King is amazing.
Even the newest brand new Terminator. All right,
enough, enough. Your time is over. Your time
is up. Your time is up. You can pause the video
there though, Andy. Spoilers! Man brought a 10
-minute video for a five -minute segment. My
word. Okay. Let's go. I like the enthusiasm,
I've got to be honest. It's a pretty meaty start
to it. There was some points there where I was
trying to... There was some fun memes. There
was a bit of bribery slash pandering towards
Eli with the elemental council slipped in. Not
even. That stuff is good. Although... I'm going
to say it right now. Lord Simons is good, but
it's not the best Chaos book, in my opinion.
Not quite. It was in mine. Black Legion, for
me, is a better book. But... Yeah, I can see
that. Okay. But that's a very strong start. Eli,
the tearing off of his clothing deadlifts. Are
you ready for your five minutes? Yeah, sure.
And I will say, if you tear off your clothes
again, I will deduct a point in my tally because
you can't repeat the memes. So your time starts
in three, two, one, go. Now, I don't actually
have any funny bits for this episode. I did zero
prep at all. I wanted to give my opponent a chance
because he is truthfully arguing for something
very hard. And I will say now, he's done a very
good job at cherry -picking the good things and
very much so leaving out the ocean of terrible
things. So let's go back to old, old Warhammer.
And I'm talking about 6th edition and prior.
New Hammer to me is 8th edition and onwards.
They were the Primaris, so I'm not sure if Primaris,
if Devastation of Baal is really New Hammer personally.
But let's start with this Necrons book, all right?
This is really old Necrons lore, which has been
changed. Up the gate, we have beautiful... beautiful
artwork very cool very dark okay well let's let's
hurry it up let's hurry up let's go look at the
back look at this this is how to make your own
homemade necron terrain your own necron board
you got how did you they teach you how to convert
models how to make your own terrain this is when
gw really cared this was when the game was made
by people who actually liked the game who actually
came up making this game. The teams worked together.
The lore was uniform. There was no, there was
no primaris Marines. Let's say that for sure.
The entire aesthetic is truly unique. It's true.
Look at these dark angels, man. It's just so
special. Every single model clearly had love
put into it. These old elder, the old elders
still hold up. And while of course the new elder
are still very cool, the old stuff really holds
up. Let's look in this apocalypse book. So first
of all, if we go in here, we, Look at this picture,
first of all. Beautiful. But let's look a little
further. First, we'll see. It's telling you about
how to make a narrative. Then it's saying you
can use old models. You can use whatever models
you would like to use in the game. You can ally
with whatever you want because it's just a big
giant apocalypse game. It's for fun. You can
use old models. You can use out -of -date models,
out -of -print models. Do you want to convert
a model? Do you want to make your own Fortress
of Arrogance? Boom! There's rules for that. They
made rules. Or your converted Baneblade, the
Fortress of Arrogance. Look at these wonderful
models. They're so unique. They have so much
passion and love put into them. We have Inquisitor
Chromatops. It's not high on him. Truly, truly,
it's beautiful. Now, that's just the corporate
side of things. It was far less about major profits
and more just about making something unique and
inspiring that people will like. The audience
were people who liked Warhammer. who were into
niche things like Warhammer. They weren't trying
to attract the masses of everyone in the whole
world to make it as basic and sci -fi as possible
so that people will buy, buy, buy, make as much
profit as possible. You could buy a battle force
back in the day for a hundred bucks. I could
save that up with my allowance and you have half
an army. Nowadays, if I want an army, if I'm
little Timmy, I'm 15 years old, 12 years old.
I want an army. It's like 500 to a thousand dollars.
The combat patrols just keep getting worse and
worse and worse. And it's just. depressing, and
saddening to see. But let's get into the rules
if I have time, which perhaps I do. First of
all, close combat, far superior. Close combat
was actually unique. It wasn't just charge and
kill the person and that's it. You had weapon
skill. So you would have your weapon skill. The
enemy had their weapon skill. So you were dueling.
You based the rule you needed off of each other's
weapon skill. Let's see. Let's look at Andy's
book right there. Very, very cool. Look at that.
Look at that. That's so cool. Anyways. If you
have a higher weapon skill than your opponent,
you hit your weapon skill, you hit your opponent
easier and they had a hard time hitting you because
you're more skilled in close combat. It was about
making a narrative back then. It wasn't about
playing checkers. It wasn't playing checkers
and sometimes one piece on the checkerboard flies
and casts magic and automatically wins the game
and they get to nerfed one week later and you
have to buy a whole new army. There was no meta
chasing. There was none of that. People might
say roast into glasses, but that's a huge cope.
just to try to live with the things nowadays.
I personally still play 6th, 5th edition, and
before, and I love it. Let me tell you. Close
combat, again, was something special. Weapon
skill was very unique, and then we have initiative.
So you didn't just go first because you walked
into an enemy. That's ludicrous. That doesn't
make any sense, right? You go first if you're
faster. If I go run towards an Eldar... The Eldar
is faster than me. The Eldar is going to hit
me first, and then I'm going to get the hit.
Or if I have a big Lumbrane Power Fist, I got
a hit last because I'm initiative one. I have
a giant weapon in my hand. It only makes sense,
right? It was about forging a narrative. We also
have Blissey skill, so not everyone just hits
on twos and threes, and there's no difference
between everyone else. A really high Blissey
skill made you hit on twos and then reroll into
another roll depending on your Blissey skill.
Oh, wait. Let's talk about armor. Armor is one
of the things that we truly miss. I think everyone
misses for the most part. You have armor value,
front, side, back. It was easier to destroy a
vehicle from the back than it was the front.
Not all weapons could harm a vehicle, as makes
sense. A lasgun can't harm a land raider. All
right. You're done. You're done. Get out of here.
So a pretty strong start. Also, I thought we
needed some actual visual stimuli after Hal's
bit, so I just grabbed every book I had to hand.
Should be dancing in the background. Doing the
gritty. So that was a pretty strong start to
kick things off. Please let us know what you
think in the comments thus far. But while the
other two brace for the next impact of the three
-minute segments, I think we should go through
some donations. So let's start off with DonkeyManUSA.
We should mention Hal's launched a new podcast
called Lodgecast, which I'm in a bit. Colin was
in the first episode. I'm going to see if we
can get Eli in. Yes. It's about Elf Legion. And
I loved how the first comment on the video was,
Hal late. I'm like, yeah. The law crimes memes
are staying. God damn it. Large one here from
Gnomeus Chomsky for 20 euro. Thank you very much.
Hey guys, how's everyone doing? Sadly, I cannot
stay for the stream. Today was a nightmare at
work. I have fever and had to work. I hope you
all will have a great rest of the day and sorry
that I cannot support you. It's no problem. Make
sure you take care of yourself with your fever
and have some soup. Donkey Man USA for $5 a do's.
Chugging that Corona Fireball Zero Ultra. Thinking
Hal is obviously correct. Do you guys know about
this concoction? Oh, this is the Colin. It's
a Colin drink, yeah. Yep. I believe next week's
guest is going to be chugging, chug -a -lugging
that as we do the stream. We've got a few more.
Eli, do you want to read a couple and then Hal
read a couple? Glock sucker. Thank you for the
$4 .99. i wake up to colin's video at 2 a .m
like the george lopez meme and hear him in my
sleep i love you based thank well thank you very
much another one for you eli and then a couple
for hal colin's husband oil up and bouncing freaky
style thank you for the five dollars happy spooky
month horror movies is one of the only things
that get me as hard as four hammer okay i'm expecting
some aos death content or else i'll edge Broke's
going to do that anyway. Look at me. You're going
to do that anyway. We can get some Skelly boys
out, maybe. Hal, would you like this one? Skarsnip's
Top Gun, formerly known as Thanos. We're getting
the Alter Pawns versus Scape Pawn Warhammer versus
had to use the letter what's the O with the dash
instead of O because YouTube is still limiting
my power. Truly, man, you are. They are. It's
not the damn woke mob these days. Maybe it's
Chesky. Five euros. B .S. I want Hal as my lawyer
in court with arguments like, Your Honor, if
I may be so bold as to say the opposition's take
is kind of cringe, not going to lie. I still
like the, occasionally I'll just check the comments
on law crimes and there'll be a comment on the
one where it was just like, girthy, Your Honor.
And you went, girthy? I'm like, yeah, that was
a fun one. Rogel dawns Primark sized golden toilet
Wow 500 rused can't watch the stream wasted as
a fun I see Colin in here. It looks like the
bad takes police finally got him to have a nice
dream y 'all The naked possible thank you for
35 czar. Hi guys who has seen Space King series
from flash gets praise be to Space King I actually
watched the first like 20 minutes the other day,
but I haven't watched the other two Praise be
to Space King I watched a little bit of Space
King. I might have ordered some of their new
merch as well. And I have the hate manga hoodie.
Tell them about the per capita. I'm getting to
it. Very funny. 9 .99. If I only caught a live
stream with the guys, shame that cologne is missing
to make up the full roster. But here are some
Imperial credits to show my appreciation. Thank
you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Last one for
now. The dank apostle for 14 czar where we're
going. We won't need eyes to see. Good quote.
Good quote. Thank you everyone for your donations.
Now. Let me just alter my timer. We've got a
three -minute segment. Now, Hal, question for
you. There's five minutes left of this video,
but you've only got three minutes. Andy, could
you please get the video up again and go to 5
minutes 58 and pause it there, please? Do you
have any questions for us, Andy, before we go
on to the next section? Isn't that a thing we
usually do? 5 minutes 58. Okay, I thought I'd
get this ready first. Okay, so before we start
this round, Hal, you're doing your very best
to absolutely proverbially deep throat how good
the lore books are these days. But what are you
going to say to the people who will say, well,
you know what? It's losing its grim darkness.
It's losing its kind of gothic tone. What are
you going to say about that? What are you going
to say about that, eh? I think it's the thing
of people before will say it was only grimdark
and therefore you, again, you were only getting
grimdark before, whereas now you are getting
grimdark and you are getting other things. So
therefore, from that perspective, it seems like
it's less grimdark. But may I remind you. warhammer
wasn't always grimdark if it's if we're including
all the editions before i'm pretty sure there
was some real goofy cartoon looking eras as well
so when people complain about there's not a grimdark
uh go read some of the newer books you'll find
it it's not really hard to find and to be fair
just on a personal note if you've read some of
the more grimdark story at some point there's
a limit of grimdark and it's there's the demonculaba
You've heard about the Demonculaba and nothing's
ever going to be as grim, dark as that. So therefore
everything after that doesn't seem grim, dark
because your perspective has changed, but that
doesn't mean the other thing. The world is still
grim, dark. It's still gritty, horrible. And
then, but they also expand more to that. If it
was only ever going to be grim, dark, we'd never
have gotten the infinite and divine, which is
again, we never got brutal cunning. with the
orc books we never would have gotten other things
so it's yeah maybe it's less grim dark but that's
because it's expanding into other genres that
still is good and that has in fact made it to
some of the best books in the series all right
uh eli um to to quote uh the the talking points
of the day in the discourse i got a gatekeep
girl boss goon max uh surely Surely Old Hammer
is always the best because it was always perfect
and there was never any problems with it. But
I will say, if we can't make anything new and
change things and innovate, then what's the point?
What do you say to that? We need New Warhammer
because it's better to try stuff like Hal said,
like infinite and divine. There's nothing wrong
with advancing and making new things. In fact,
around the early 2000s, mid -2000s was when GW
really found its stride. If you compare the OG
Dark Eldar to the mid -2000s Dark Eldar, it's
a vast difference, extremely nice. All the new
models that came out with those days were very
good. Making new things isn't a bad thing. Making
new things that are bad is when it becomes a
bad thing. If you're making new things and they're
not actually improving or adding, and in fact,
if they're taking away... then why bother making
that thing at all? If it's only for profits,
if there's no love put into it, if we have Inquisir
Cotias turning into now Inquisir Cotias, that's
a new thing. And I think the entire community
agrees that it is not better. New does not always
mean better. New always meaning better is a very
poor path of logic used by very unintelligent
people. I knew you were going to bring him up.
You should say. A year ago, we did a stream ranking
other ugly models, and they are all from early
Warhammer. They were literally like 99 % from
early Warhammer. So between us both, there is
duds. But I will say, it's excusable to have
duds when you're starting out as a company, when
you're in your earlier days, and you're in the
90s, and the model making stuff is not. You know,
completely upscale. Because like I said, if you
look in the early 2000s, pretty much everything
they made in those times, there were no duds.
They hit after hit after hit. Everything was
really cool back then. Obviously, the first edition
things were very goofy, but then the aesthetic
changed a little bit. Now, GW is probably the
richest company for games, maybe other than Wizards
of the Coast, I would imagine, and Magic the
Gathering. They have nearly unlimited resources.
and they have decades of experience, they truly
have no excuse to make anything bad ever. Was
that a shot fired at the sanguinary guard? Giving
them any leeway is giving them far too much credit
than they deserve. As I said, they have unlimited
resources to make the best things possible. And
if they come with anything lower than average,
that is unexcusable. But, counterpoint. The original
Nagash miniature was perfection. We should have
stopped there. We should have said, pack it in,
boys. Best thing ever made. True and real. True
and real. Now, can't get better than that. Funny,
scrunkly boy. Hal, I have put the video at 5
.58. Let me know when you're ready for your three
minutes, and I will count you in. I am ready.
Okay. Your time begins in three, two... One fight.
Well, we're starting it. As Eli said, there's
no such thing as imperfection and, you know,
not bangers. But God forbid they introduce flyers
into the game at this point. You're right, you
know, not in the later stuff, in the older things
here. And forever since, everyone has basically
hated these things. Not to mention, yeah, they
had some not bangers at this time as well. The
Nick Kime Salamanders trilogy is... you know
you've got to own that that's of that era paul
he's still around unfortunately but he's not
producing things as bad as the salamander trilogy
which is literally torture for people uh i can't
i literally i will never go near these things
it is punishing and again like you said no excuse
for not having banning bangers well in the olden
days there's plenty of not bangers again here
we go eli's favorite author mr gav thought producing
perhaps another series of what is not my favorite
author move on he is producing boring book like
this he ruins eldar there we go Eldar was ruined
long before anything in modern 40K had a touch
on it. You know, so you can't really be like,
oh, all the modern stuff is new. No, they were
ruining stuff back then. You just forget about
it. That's the thing. Everyone remembers only
the hits and the good songs. They don't remember
all the terrible songs that came out later, do
they? You know, nostalgia glasses truly be a
lot. I'll say for playing modern 40K, it is so
much strength that it is streamlined. I cannot
explain, like, first of all, starting off. I
can play my new gorgeous models in plastic, not
fine cast. I can play them into... I can play
my Ultramen or whatever I want to pick. I can
play that into different attachment styles. I'm
not beholden to playing one style. My army has
so much more different things I can do with it.
Whereas before, you want to play a certain attachment,
you're locked into it. That's the best you can
do. You can play it this way, that way. Or, you
know, want to make a whole new army for a different
range? No, I can do my thing and play it in different
times. It's amazing. And it's using as before,
like the restaurant analogy. It's like having
a menu that offered a crazy unique menu, but
it was just too much and the restaurant was losing
financially. So therefore, if you streamline
it down, your core dishes in the restaurant stand
out way, way stronger and the restaurant is healthy
again. Balance. It's a thing now. They actually
have balance in the game because they regularly
update the game and balance it to the point where
no one feels like they're losing out. And as
a last point, my friend group has literally doubled
because of 10th edition. You cannot get close
to the amount of new people enjoying the hobby.
First of all, on our own channel too, we literally
need these new people to bring life into the
hobby that was going to die at that time. Thank
God for the modern 40 go. You're done, fella.
You're done. Although I've got to say that pink
tank was spectacular. I've never seen that before.
That was amazing. Empress children. Yeah, Empress
children. And like neon pink tank. Imagine dying
from that. That'd be embarrassing. But yeah,
so that was quite a sterling effort from Hal.
And it looks like that. Oh, God. I've just I've
just seen your video to be like, oh. Is there
any more? And there is, but it's just a still
image and it's very cursed. It's for the last
minute. Yeah, I'm assuming that's the case. So
with that said, we're going to start with you,
Eli. You've got three minutes. Are you ready?
Are you ready? Aye, aye, Captain. Then three,
two, one. It's time. Now I feel my opponent.
A lot of his points actually can be deflected
right back at him. Firstly, I can play with as
many new models as I want. Well, that is true.
Unfortunately, you have to sacrifice about half
your model range if you're playing anything other
than Space Marines. We can kind of tell the opponent
here enjoys Space Marine factions, Space Marine
lore, Space Marine things in general. Most of
his arguments revolve around Space Marine lore
and Space Marine armies. If you're playing something
like the Dark Eldar, you have lost about 70%.
of your units in the last few years back in the
day this was not an issue you might lose a character
and gain a character but that didn't happen you
weren't losing units every edition you were not
losing characters there was no legends rules
made in the early editions were compatible with
the new editions so even if you're playing casual
games it was easy to play with other characters
now there's plenty of new lore that is good and
there is plenty of old lore that is bad but unfortunately
again if you're a space frame player That's not
an issue. If you're someone else, if you like
Eldar, yeah, the Eldar lore sucked, but now it
really sucks. It's about as terrible as it could
have possibly ever been. A lot of new lore is
just horrendous. Ever since Phil Kelly took Reigns
of the Tau, it's been desperate, humiliating,
horrible. Elemental Council is amazing. It's
great. There's one good book, though, out of
the last eight or so that were just terrible.
Let's look at this rulebook. Let's look at the
pure love and joy one could get from this rulebook.
It's beautiful. And by the way, I looked through
the other rulebook and it's nothing like this.
This whole rulebook will tell you about forging
a narrative, having fun with your friends, enjoying
your time. There's unique missions. There's unique
ways to play. There's no bloat. And yeah, there's
none of that. Now, we also talk about a streamlined
game. The game is not simple. The game is very
simple. skeleton mechanics but other than that
it is convoluted it is just piss poor annoying
terrain rules are extremely hard to understand
there's no logic in half of the rules a lot of
the rules are very bland if nothing else it's
very tailored for competitive play whereas old
warhammer was tailored for fun lore play the
only times you ever really had issues in with
balance is if you were playing against jerks
pretty much every old argument against old hammer
Only applies if you're playing against people
who are not kind to people who are not playing
for fun. If you're playing a friendly game, the
game will be fun. Look at that. Captain Badrum.
Has there ever been anything better? Anyways,
there is. The rules, well, they may be simplified,
although not really. They're not. They're convoluted
and annoying and balanced. Can we look back to
the 75 % demons win rate? Can we look at the
constant data slate updates? There's none of
that. The community helped balance the game at
tournaments. Things were banned if they were
OP. You're done. You're done. You're done. You're
done. Right. So my phone fell on the floor. Sorry,
fellas. There were some interesting points there.
There was overview. I guess, Hal, your argument
was that we have rose -tinted glasses for Old
Hammer. There were duds in the lore. There were
duds with miniatures. Therefore, you can't blame
all the woes on Warhammer as it is right now
on the new stuff because the old stuff was also
bad at times. And Eli, I suppose your overview
was that while it was in its more nascent era...
you have a bit more leeway to make bad stuff,
but also it's not as bad as it is now with things
like the Eldar lore, the Tao lore. Mainly, I
assume, is it fair to say that your gripes are
more about the lore than the miniatures, Eli?
No, it's both. Although I will say now GW is
finding their stride again. It's been better
this last year, but I think we can all agree
that prior to this, around 2018, to 2022, 2023,
we were really in the dark ages of models. There
were a few good ones, a few Primarchs that looked
good, but I think the majority of the community
highly disliked the Primaris. It was such a ridiculous
lore change, and the models, in my opinion, look
quite unbelievably stupid. They are generic.
They're boring, basic sci -fi warrior. Go play
Starcraft or something. You can get the exact
same thing. There's nothing more and more about
these models. I've seen some people saying that
recently GW has made them units. There's less
of an emphasis on, oh, they're Primaris. They're
trying to kind of blur the lines between first
born. That's the thing. We are losing Primaris
again in this Machiavellian scheme to phase out
Primaris and get in true scale, regular, normal
Marines again. So, oh, you have to sell all your
Primaris and buy all these new Marines now. Sorry.
He's incorrect on this. It's not selling Primaris.
They no longer have the keyword because they
are just Space Marines. But they're updating
all of these units now. Isn't that what we wanted,
though? Yes, but in olden days, you could play
with those old units. Nowadays, they're going
to say, these units are legends. You have to
buy this new Space Marine unit. You don't have
to do anything. You don't have to, but that's
their business model, is to exploit you. To buy
plastic units. There's a pertinent question I
want to ask your opinions on from your particular
perspectives. One is someone who is on the old
hammer, one who's on the new hammer. I bought
this on pre -order, got here today. There's one
miniature that I think has been quite divisive
in the last week or so. Starting with Hal, because
Eli just had a chat. What about the recent redo
of this fella? Did we really need another one?
Calgar previously had two options before as well.
So he actually had the option of being in Terminator
armor. So this is almost like it's not even new
news, which I'm, again, it's that thing of if
I own one in front of me, I'm going to. make
that bad boy look so fucking sexy at the end
of it i'm not upset if like particularly again
it's different because if we're warhammer lore
youtubers we're consuming it more than the average
person the number one most played army is space
marines it will much to eli's probably wounded
soul people are here for space marines so therefore
when you get good sexy good plastic in scale
that's the thing you like like so many you're
like oh my models are gone they are fine cast
or like it's just you know it why is why is my
model like bend in the bloody wind or the sun
you know i mean like you can't compete with the
quality of what we have in terms of even if you
went from like push fit or to this kind of current
things we have now it's just not on the same
scale and again most people are space marine
players people want space rings me and andy like
horrors heresy we like space marines people want
their space marines so when someone gets a new
sexy space marine and for more of their stuff
they're not gonna be upset like eli are they
because eli is just over here gagging for some
necrons or other things which by the way the
new necron range gorgeous uh I don't think he
complained when that happened or the new silent,
you know, silent King happened when the new Catan
shards are coming out. I don't think he complains
then either. So I don't think anyone's upset.
You know what I mean? Like it's, it's a very
in, in, in community thing of like someone, someone's
upset about something. Whereas the majority of
the entire world is like, yay. you know what
I mean like the Warhammer community complains
about quite a lot of things many valid but it
is really weird to explain to people by the way
my plastic like my little girly plastic you know
dollies that I play with and I got upset about
something well is it fair to say that not your
entire argument but a part of it is that we've
had it so good so many times people need to stop
whinging as much because we've had so many good
miniatures is that Is that a fair point? It will
be that. And I will say, as well as my last point,
Games Workshop, they, from what we know, particularly
as well from insiders, they were very much focused
on making the Warhammer core community happy
for many years in the early days. It was killing
them. It literally on their balance sheet was
killing them. And at one point, Warhammer was
about to go away. at some point you have to realize
like when you guys make a video or you make something
like that you make something that you think people
not just your friends but it's like people are
gonna enjoy and they've not lost it so people
will always say you know i mean any band who
releases a new album someone says they have a
soul or anything like yeah you know i mean anything
time you do you know anytime something new comes
out some people hate the new stuff and they'd
like the old stuff that's fine I love the band
Smashing Pumpkins, but I haven't listened to
the last 10 albums they've done because I just
like Siren Machine. I'm that guy. And I know
Billy Corgan is annoyed at people like me who
are just like, can you just play today again?
No, I want to make new music. I'm like, but I
don't care about the new music. I want the old
stuff. We all are like that for many things,
but as in like Eli just said, he likes the new
miniature stuff that's come out. You know what
I mean? We're still enjoying. We're still cooking.
We're still enjoying the new stuff. It's good.
Well, Eli, what's your opinion on the Kalgar
conundrum where he's got five minis now? I like
Kalgar. I never said I was unhappy that we're
getting new Space Marines. I never said that.
I like getting new Space Marines. I like new
models. I am upset that we're losing Xenos models.
That's what I am upset for. That does not mean
I'm upset that we're getting new Space Marines.
That is a poor path of logic. and one that is
commonly used by a lot of people. Now, I'm not
displeased about Space Marines. In fact, I quite
like the new Calgar model. I quite hated the
Gravis Armor one because I think Gravis Armor
looks incredibly stupid. So I'm very glad that
he has a new model. I still think the 2005 one
is the coolest, mariniest Calgar ever. I think
that was kind of what... Everyone's saying that.
I think that was really when... Why change perfection?
I think that was really when GW were really getting
into their modeling stuff. Models before 2000
were... Very hit or miss models between 2000
and 2016 or whatever were very beautiful. Yeah,
I'm not displeased about getting new models.
I am displeased about losing models and not being
able to play with half of my army in a tabletop
game and then not getting a replacement model.
Because Mr. Space Marine here, yeah, he can say,
yeah, but you're getting all these new models.
Well, no, I'm not. I just lost half my data sheets
and I have not been given a replacement model.
So what am I supposed to do? nothing if it's
half the data sheets of things that people don't
own because they're quite rare like if it's the
extreme case of it like i'm i wasn't upset to
lose rand like if my miniatures are looking quite
old and decrepit i didn't even buy the new miniature
i have fat grey knight things that are not grey
knights because i just they're so outdated and
old That's the thing. What was the thing we streamed?
It was just like, hey, Grey Knights fans, we're
just going to box all the old models together.
Like, oh, thanks. Thanks for that. You know what?
I will say to house credit, the new Eldar are
great. The new actual Eldar. The Phoenix Lords.
I can't play Carandras anymore for some reason.
He's just not there anymore. He's my favorite
Phoenix Lord. All they had to do was put his
data sheet in. It wouldn't have cost him, what,
five minutes? At some point, do you go, of my
40 to 100 data sheets, do you go like, you know
what? It's okay to have 48 or whatever data sheets.
And at some point, it's not. the end of the world
if you're fine cast miniature that looks really
old that most people proxy with something else
because it's that bad like it is proxy i bought
a specific grandeur's proxy to play with and
now he's not in the game and then he probably
bought it from china from it was probably not
even i got it from artel w yeah see that's the
thing it's like it's not even the real you know
i mean i don't even have to regardless i want
to play it on the tabletop and for no no given
reason i just can't let's not talk about the
necron situation all right on the dark all right
all right we've lost all of our characters right
so to play devil's advocate and i already know
your opinion on this because i asked you before
the stream today we had a new kill team which
had tau and space walls so we had space marines
and we had xenos in a new box surely that's good
right I mean, it's good that they're paying attention
to them, but I don't like the models very much.
I think the stealth suits look goofy. I'm not
complaining. I don't really care. I'm not going
to buy it either way. It doesn't really matter
to me. It looks like they put Space Wolf bits
on some Primaris Marines and they mashed together
some cross stuff. You could kitbash these guild
teams by yourself if you wanted. Which, by the
way, you can't really kitbash anymore. You can
only build what's in the box, so sorry. what's
the thing called where like it doesn't matter
what you do but someone else already hates it
because they have a thing isn't it like like
your favorite person could do like your most
disliked person could do something good but you
still hate it because it's like i've given gw
credit when it's due i've said i like things
plenty of times when it's not when credit is
not justified not able to be given i'm not going
to give it okay well um I think now that we've,
I've kind of been prodding the proverbial bears
in this debate, trying to get them riled up a
little bit. I think it's time for the minute
of hate for each of you. Now, I will warn you,
Eli, there is a still image I'm looking at on
my second screen, which is kind of concerning
me, but also making me grin that Hal has prepared.
And that's what we're going to put on screen.
No, I'll put it on screen when your time starts.
Cause I don't want that to, I don't want to give
you extra time with the shock value of what you've
got. So I'm just telling you this Eli. So if
you want to like really quickly muscle something
together, then you can, um, because it's okay.
I'll, uh, well, or even, or even just kind of
hype yourself up. Okay. How this is how you,
how you tell me when you're ready and I'll give
you a count in. I am ready. Okay. Brace yourself,
folks. Your time starts in three, two, one. All
right, boys. As much as we've heard much, Eli,
over the many different episodes complain about
like, oh, you know, WAM additions happen so fast
and things are going at a pace. If I look at
it correctly, 6th edition is the two -year edition?
7th edition was when all the bad things started.
Yeah, sure. I mean, this is the earlier edition.
Wow. Okay, crazy. Again, fine cast. You can't
run away from the fact that quite a lot of the
model ranges, even new ones that came out in
the earlier editions, you know what I mean? My
model is just VonWay. It breaks. It's terrible.
It doesn't have the quality. I would say, as
much as we know, I would agree. Some Codexes
before had some great things in them that probably
make them slightly better, but it's because the
ecosystem around Warhammer itself has shifted.
from the Codex to the actual community. Modern
Warhammer saved the hobby, literally. Modern
Sculpt looked the best it's ever been, and we're
enjoying it ourselves as well. There you go.
That's your minute of hate. It's not long enough.
A minute is not long enough. Well, the thing
was, the visuals are pretty funny, but also it
does cut into the time, I suppose. That's why
I didn't want to put the picture up first, because
it would have been an unfair advantage. it's
my new well oh yeah it's it's the equivalent
of uh eli with the toy story 2 call -in picture
put it on your on your back that is still my
that is still my pc wallpaper forever okay eli
are you ready for your minute of hate sure okay
we got starting okay yeah you're not dying cool
no cool Time starts in three, two, one, go. New
Hammer rules are complete garbage, utter trash,
unplayable filth, extremely unfun, point and
click, screw you. This piece of terrain this
tall, it's actually this tall. You can't see
through it. You need tournament required L -shaped
terrain. Your train's lame. Your combat's lame.
Everyone hits on twos. Everyone wounds on twos.
Every gun can wound everything. Screw you. Oh,
you're an ancient race who's trying to... Keep
as many of its people alive? Sorry, you have
to go sit on the front lines on a random objective
and do some useless garbage secondary objective
and sacrifice this unit because the only way
to play this game now is through trade gameplay
or you automatically lose. You want to outmaneuver
your opponent? You want to beta and switch? You
can't. You can't because you have to hold as
many objectives as you can for the entire game.
And you have to sacrifice your entire army. Most
games, you end up with barely anything left on
the board for both players unless you roll really
good. That's stupid. That's not strategic. That's
not little accurate. There's no flavor. There's
nothing. Five, four, three, two, one. And he's
done. Wow. Shout out to the two up in vulnerable
say that was before in the early editions. Wow.
There's only one Dark Eldar model. If you're
in chat, please check the chat. I have just put
a poll up for you to vote with Eli for Old Hammer
and Hal for New Hammer. While you guys vote,
I'm going to give us a quick little my opinions
on the debate. It's hard to beat the JD Vance.
Hal? I've got to be honest, Hal. I was very impressed
that you did like... I'm this, this wasn't like
your usual prep work for one of your videos where
it's like an hour long video and you have to
get all these way. But like, I like the fact
that you brought something to, to illustrate
your points, like in a, in a proper, um, like
almost always sunny in Philadelphia way where
you're just like, Hey, look, this is why my,
my theory is correct. Can I have one thing for
chat? Uh, there was audio slightly and there
was boom sound effect and boom vine sound effects.
I can't be that. I can't be that. I can't be
that. I did ask if there was any audit news.
I know. I figured it would be distracting. At
least Old Hammer wasn't ran by stockholders in
suits. Maybe I can add them in post, Hal. So
the main sticking point, as far as I can tell,
is, and this isn't just like... us making this
as a contentious point there is a big discourse
right now with a lot of purists and a lot of
gatekeeping people and it's like obviously you
can't let the you can't have the setting flourish
if you don't try new things and bring in new
people but also if you don't lean on the wisdom
of the past you're going to make mistakes and
right now like eli said there's tons of stuff
In terms of resources. You've got a publishing
house. You've got all this fleet of writers.
You've got different studios. You've got all
these factions. All this lore to draw from. You've
got all these characters. You've got all this
established stuff. That's taken 40 years to make.
But at the same time. I guess it's somewhat in
the eye of the beholder. What you consider good
or bad. And I think the lore. There's so much
of it these days. Compared to 30 years ago. 20
years ago. For every hell's reach. You'll get
a. What's the first Phil Kelly Farsight book?
You get one of those. That's not terrible, though.
The first one was acceptable, to be fair. The
first one wasn't horrible. They just get increasingly
worse. I was going to say, you get a really good
book, then you get a mid book, and then you get
a rubbish book. You throw you into the SpongeBob
chasm where some word explodes and you just die.
Do you know Phil Kelly helped write Sixth Edition?
Yeah, Phil Kelly writes interesting codex loads.
I think he just hates the Tao. I think he just
literally hates the Tao. He did something, I
was doing videos on it recently, and it was like,
oh, Phil Kelly wrote some of this. What was it?
Cool, Eldar lore in the Eldar Codex. And he made
the Tao really... Oh, I think it was the Badab
War. Was it? No. He actually writes good lore
when he's not talking about Tao. It's unbelievable,
man. oh i think it's a scout marine video i was
doing it was like oh like who are the authors
who did the scout marine stuff and like phil
kelly's one of them and it's like i i guess you
can't really weed out i don't know how the writers
work i don't know if it's like gw go you need
to write something for this this and this and
this is your quota or if they go i want to write
this because i like this thing because i know
the current writers what they do is if they get
a new writer they'll go here's a short story
opportunity make a good short story and if people
like it we'll give you an actual book like with
um dalchion rasak who's this new night lord's
character he had a short story now he's getting
a full -fledged novel you had things like mike
brooks where he did um brutal cunning and now
he's on a trilogy of books about uh black hawk
so there's like a proving grounds now where the
the writers have to prove themselves in the short
format but That's good. But but then it also
allows, I guess, through the net of mass producing
law content, some duds. But Phil Kelly's not.
I don't really understand. If I can add in one
thing, Andy, which is Eli mentioned earlier about
like if you've got the people, the budget, everything,
there's almost no excuse. everybody here has
something about like we always like the thing
of our childhood so i don't care for the fact
like the star wars you know prequel trilogy is
in fact probably quite bad but i still love it
like the thing is i don't the thing is maybe
star wars has got an even bigger budget even
you know even more people and everything bigger
budget does not mean everything is a success
again You will always forget the terrible things
in the past. The era we're speaking of now, we'll
all forget the terrible books and the terrible
miniature releases. You know, and then you know
what? It'll be long enough. They'll come back
and we'll like them because they'll become iconic.
So in a way, we'll like the argument that I'm
just saying, like, obviously, companies make
bad things. I'm just saying, like, nowadays,
companies have limitless resources and it's just.
I don't think they deserve any leeway at all
to make anything bad. Like Mr. Koteas, for example.
Or you could just see it in video games. Like
companies make bad video games now because they
want to make a profit and they don't really care
about making things good. Rip Halo, by the way.
Halo, Star Wars, Marvel, et cetera. It just keeps
getting worse and worse and worse despite having
more and more money because it's just all about
money now. It's just all about money. There's
nothing about passion or love. Also, shout out
to the chat. They've both been at like 50 -50.
Yeah. There's a hundred of you and only 70 votes.
So I'd like to see 30 more votes there. 49, 51.
It's never been this close. I don't think we've
ever had a thing. It was 50, 50 for like a good.
minute or two there, too. I think I might have
bribed him with a Vegeta forehead. It's pretty
hard to beat the memes. Can we have a 50 -50
chat? Can we get a tie, please? I specifically
didn't do prep because I've won the last two
through memes and shenanigans. And I knew Hal
already wasn't really excited. to argue for uh
new hammer so i wanted to at least like give
him a decent chance well that's that's not just
but like but that's an interesting point that
like you weren't enthusiastic to talk about new
hammer and i'm not doing this to be like let's
scupper the vote it's just more of a case of
i guess the the dichotomy is new hammer has way
more stuff and therefore there's way more stuff
you have to cover for old hammer doesn't have
as much stuff like When they first made, like,
Horus Heresy, there weren't books until Horus
Rising, which was way after we knew what a Horus
Hermesy was. And so by the fact that New Hammer
has loads more stuff, and it has loads more stuff
that, good and bad, you have to justify, I guess
in some regards Old Hammer is way easier to cover
for because it's like, oh, well. Back in my day,
it was all better. I genuinely do think that
it's starting to go back in the right direction,
but I'm just not sure. Like 11th edition, it's
so up in the air. 11th edition could either be
the renaissance, like the new coming for 40K,
or it could be the nail in the coffin for me.
A lot of it, honestly, a lot of it rides on how
they treat the Dark Eldar because the treatment
of the Dark Eldar, you can kind of have the timeline
of Dark Eldar to show how good Warhammer was.
I've never even played Dark Eldar in my life.
Name a more abused community in 40k than the
Dark Eldar players. But at this point in time
of recording, about in the last month, Lady Malice
got a miniature like 30 years after I think she
was first mentioned. That's progress. We got
one new model and we lost even more data sheets.
I don't know, man. What are you supposed to do?
I did one point, which is that itself, new Warhammer,
our community stuff is, you know what I mean?
Like everything I think before was again in the
codex because it was, it felt like a very small,
this new community of Warhammer is so big that
it's all shifted to us now. the people who do
the painting the kit bashing stuff like that
they're not in magazines and things anymore we're
all online we're all you know i mean like your
codex is again for playing warhammer 40k but
all that other stuff like surrounds it is embodied
by people like us now your law if i go back to
old hammer times what's your law at that time
you've got luton he's been around god forbid
the spicy architecture you know and other things
one might you know i mean but like nowadays there's
many other channels like it's it's almost oh
i will say new hammer new hammer like the hobby
new hammer of now is almost uncomparable the
amount of 3d printing for all your new things
if you've got a problem with you know sanguinary
guard you don't have a problem because it's solved
by someone else like making even better stuff
in the company too much leeway though you don't
have to demand the consumers to do their own
work but i i you it's an interesting point you
made there because like again i'm bringing this
up again uh when they were doing the promo for
this which is written by wade who's like the
law master's guy he had this whole thing where
he talked about this guy which is Zodgrod of
Wartsnagger. That's really all the lore they
provide you with. And that's not too far from
what he actually has. But coincidentally, the
same day this book came out, I did a video on
that character. And that was one of his examples
of why you should buy it. My video isn't a long
video, but it has more lore in it than this book.
And you don't have to pay for it. And there's
like... them them them leaning on old wisdom
of we will make a an encyclopedia in the age
of the internet is a bit like but we have youtubers
and we have people who are passionate about the
hobby that might put in more work than even the
people in the company who have the resources
that are being paid to do the thing so may i
may i also say a point to the youtuber thing
we yes we only had a couple youtubers back then
but that was also like kind of the golden age
of youtube where anyone can become a youtuber
and we're kind of We're almost in that again
where anyone can become a YouTuber, sort of.
But that being said, more isn't always better.
Back in the day, the worst we had was one mind
syndicate reading off the wiki, and we all made
fun of them for that. Now we have dozens of people
just lying about stuff consistently, making up
their own stuff and just saying it's true. But
that's true for any group anywhere. Yes, but
it was not nearly as prevalent when there was
very few. warhammer youtubers well because the
worst we had was just dudes reading off the wiki
right like well i guess if you're right back
in the day you know i mean you didn't have a
hundred thousand people commenting on 30 you
know i mean like your life was probably easier
10 years ago too so you know i mean that's the
same thing but i'm not going to complain because
the success of i'm not complaining stuff is literally
what makes us have a job doesn't it i'm just
saying more more and it wasn't always better
No, of course not. If you take a step back, sometimes
if you're too close to it, you can't see. If
you take a step back, it's the golden era, almost.
Do we have many books that come out nowadays
with, I don't know how to even say it, not important
characters? I mean, I'm doing work stuff. Grotsnik
has a book now. Yeah, I'm sorry. Characters that
have never been on the tabletop or established
in the lore? Do we get many books surrounding
characters like that nowadays? Even the more
recent character book ones just released from
Black Library, they're for characters that just
straight up don't have models. That's one of
my favorite things about Old Hammer is a lot
of the books were about people who you've never
heard of and they're all in this book. Sister
Miria, for example, is really cool in the Sister
of Battle books. It's just a model, which is
kind of insane. The example I always revert to
is Cardan Stronos, the war leader of the Iron
Hands chapter. He's ostensibly a chapter master.
He don't have a model. He's got two and a half
books. He's got art. And then I look in this
encyclopedia and it's like, oh, do you want to
hear about Feroz? I'm like, no, not really. I
want to hear about the guy in charge not being
funny. There's a... Andy Neiman. But it's like,
I want to know about this character. And it's
a bit of a shame that, again, you are correct
that in my research, it's usually, here's a book
like, oh, who's this character? Don't worry about
it. He doesn't have a miniature. And maybe he
doesn't even have art. They have rules for characters
without miniatures back in the day. You could
just make your own freaking guy. Yeah. That's
one of the better parts of it. from it you always
remember you like you always have the perspective
of someone who's you played a lot of warhammer
you've been in playing one for a long time majority
people have not most people now shockingly their
first time playing warhammer is 10th edition
yeah this is like that's the thing you know i
mean like it's the same thing of like someone
saying you know is that if we keep saying back
in my day sort of thing you know someone realized
you know it's it's back in someone else's day
today And it's, and it's not bad. It's actually
pretty, you know what I mean? Like the equivalent
of their back in the day today will be way better
than maybe what we had. That's the thing. Cause
you don't, you know, you don't, you never know
how lucky you are. I'm busting for a week. So
I'm going to go for a week, but I have, I'm going
to throw a, like a hand grenade in before I go
for it. So we're, we're probably soon going to
be out of the 10th edition. We're kind of getting
to the end of the cycle of 10th edition. Do you
think that. 10th edition has done a good job
for the hobby. And now I'm going to wait. Enjoy.
It really depends on your opinion on what is
good for the hobby. I feel like everyone would
have different answers for this question. It's
done good at bringing in more people. That's
kind of all I can say that it's done good, though,
personally. I think it's done poorly. I think
it's also done good for certain armies. Certain
models, certain armies. But it's done very poorly
for other armies. And personally, I played a
lot of 10th edition. I really struggle to have
as much fun playing this edition as basically
even 9th edition. I like 9th edition a bit more.
10th edition has brought in more people, yes,
but it's also kind of... I kind of heard some
people saying it's like Magic the Gathering -fied.
warhammer there's a lot of meta chasing it's
extremely competitive based there's updates all
the time the new the new thing is to make one
thing op and then everyone buys it and then nerf
it and then everyone sells it and buys the new
thing and there's constant changes to the game
for competitive play that's kind of okay but
for casual play it's very like it's very anti
-casual the game i think is overly it feels like
checkers to me sometimes it feels like checkers
I think the anti -casual part of it, yeah, I
would agree. But it's also, if you're on the
other end of someone who, again, not everyone
is great at playing it. I just played recently
last week, and I would say the person wasn't
as good as me. But the thing is, he also was
playing an army, which is quite well balanced
against me. So therefore, it was all due down
to the fact of player skill in that sense. Having
good balance in the game, I promise you, when
you're on the other end of like you're not balanced
against everyone else who's got slightly better
stuff, it does feel bad. That's the thing. So
when everything is a bit more even Stevens, as
they say, it actually means like, oh, my army
is good because everyone else is as good as me.
And it's actually down to my skill. I will say,
though, like things are more balanced in one
way, but. It also kind of slots you into a place
where you have to bring things that are very
specific, whereas some units are just blatantly
unusable, complete and utter garbage. I hear
Orc players complaining about this a lot. Some
of your units are beyond garbage, just terrible.
And if you bring a very specific thing, admit
it, Chase, as they say, then yeah, it's balanced.
But I don't want to do that. I want to play my
lore -accurate army. I want to be able to play
with my lower accurate army and still not get
completely obliterated. Whereas back in the older
editions, it did genuinely feel like every model
had its use, even if it was slightly less good.
It's hard to gauge it because that's how it felt.
But then as to one person, if I asked loads of
people, I'm sure if I go back and I was in my
research. when i was in my research of this you
won't believe the amount of complaint things
they found from years ago people saying the new
models look bad the people were complaining about
like always mike this is not balanced like i'm
actually shredded by certain things like yes
the seventh edition was when everything got really
bad uh truthfully we never changed mostly truthfully
most of the balance issues most of the balance
issues could be solved by just playing against
your friend instead of a guy who is super insecure
and needing to win. You could make crazy, ridiculous
OP armies, but if you're playing for fun, every
model kind of just works together. The crazy
OP armies were people who spammed certain things.
But nothing at the moment, though, is... And
with the constant update, nothing is OP dominating
for ages and that we're not suffering. It's not
like people... yeah like having to have tournament
bands for things for your own models before whereas
now it's like it's actually sold quickly recently
just recently the uh the more docker detachment
had to be banned because it was winning like
90 of its games yeah but it's like it wasn't
it's not really powerful that's the outlier now
that's not a common occurrence anymore before
that it was the demons and then chaos it's not
unaddressed for like you know months and months
on end so you don't end up you know I mean at
some point they say don't you know I mean it's
not like banned for an entire season or something
like crazy now it's actually like oh okay they
did deal with it thank God Was there a few more
donations we should get to? Yes. We'll go through
the donations. If there's any extra at the end,
we'll add them to the very end. But if you want
to put any last votes in, now is your last chance.
First one, we just got a donation of $1 .99 from
Waffle. Thank you very much. Cheers, brother.
Thank you. Colin's husband oiled up and bouncing
freaky style for two. Sincha Nurgle would have
this same debate. But which one are we eating?
I call Gibbs on not Nurgle. Zenon, hello, buddy.
Eli, would you want a 40k classic much like Old
World? I think best of both could be great, especially
if it's set in fifth. I mean, in my opinion,
with recaster sites now, you can just play Old
Warhammer. you don't need we don't need a new
like revised edition uh it would be cool but
you can also go buy a fifth edition rule book
on ebay for 30 bucks and just play it that's
what i do i don't know you can play sixth edition
if you want it as well that's horror's heresy
so it's still here it's it's well no no no horror's
heresy is very different now it was similar now
it's different but uh it's the the biggest issue
is it's hard for people to find uh opponents
to play old hammer with if it hasn't if they
don't already have friends who have been immersed
in it for a while because i have a lot of friends
before uh but a lot of people will tell me like
there's no one who's willing to play old editions
around here like it's 10th edition or nothing
else uh which is a weird mindset in my opinion
i don't know just give i guess if you're in certain
spots not playing 10th edition would mean you're
not practicing for your tournament and getting
better and blah blah which is like the culture
around 40k now which is Very detrimental, in
my opinion. And I'll do this one, then I'll pass
it on to you guys. Free for free, I think, is
a good one. So Ravan, the five with the little
cat. Happy to finally catch a stream and have
money to actually donate. Thank you. On the top
of old versus new grim darkness, shout out to
Dance Steps for GW Space Hog. Nice. Crazy. We
love a space hog. Eli, would you like the next
tree? You know who's always eating good? Necromunda
players. Necromunda players have been eating
good for eons, somehow. And you have to own like
10 books to play it, but... Oh, we got a Blood
Angel guy now? Cool. Oh, fair enough. Have fun.
Colin's husband oiled up in Bouncing Freaky style.
Thank you for $5. You both bring up good points,
but they would be better points without shirts
on. Also, Eli, how do you feel about the rumour
to Drukhari refresh in 11th? If it happens, then
that would be great. If we get back all of the
lost data sheets, I'll be really happy. Or new
stuff. A new character or two would be cool.
Well, a character that's already in the lore
but made into a model. Can we get Vect? Vect,
update, please. I think he will. Or at least
I imagine he will. We'll see. It's really hard
to know. Main event virtual. I will admit that
the Space Marine sculpts lost some character
when they went to Primaris, but I'd rather paint
a million Primaris than one ugly -ass squat FB.
Interesting. Interesting. I think they're going
back in the right direction with Space Marines
now, honestly. I think Primaris was a huge mistake,
and they looked terrible and stupid, and they
didn't look like Warhammer. But I think they're
going back in the right direction because they're
getting rid of Primaris and just making True
Scale Marines, which is all we wanted in the
first place. That wouldn't make a difference.
Space Wars all looking good. Mm -hmm. Last one,
Bookie Beard. Thank you for the $4 .99. Eli,
you can't deny the Necron updates have been pretty
darn good. The models are great and the new kill
team looks sweet. Yep, I've never denied that.
I like all the new Necron models. The thing that
I am unhappy with is that all three of my favorite
characters in Warhammer are no longer playable
on the tabletop, which makes me very sad. And
that also means they're not really getting supported
in lore very often either. R .I .P. He has to
carry it himself soon. I'm going to give you
four, Hal, because this one's very short. uh
patrick von de sar for two bucks mark 10 is better
than mark 11. i know i think i'm a mom i'm a
mark three boy i'm a mark three space movie seven
sorry mark seven yeah i was like i misread that
my brain went straight to 11. to be fair though
patrick you went from r numbers to roman numerals
so you you tricked him you threw me off with
my it's out of track for him nora nors for five
bucks want to say thanks for being the best woman
podcast painting my visual uh kai kia kia see
i literally cannot read key key emperor's children
models right now brackets one the ones with the
wacky hair almost done with that awesome man
awesome we should put it under the discord for
10 bucks both have problems and it's probably
tied to having too many playable unique factions
with which old world started I don't like saying
it I'm for I'm guard but we may need to relegate
some background well I didn't even I didn't even
talk about the imperial guard the imperial guard
is also in shambles man It's hard because there's
so much to cover. I know, but it's just crazy.
It's like you're playing a space marine army,
right? You want jump pack guys? You want jump
pack guys? They're Raven Guard. You want normal
ground troops? They're Ultramarines. You want
assault troops? They're freaking, I don't know,
Imperial Fists, whatever you want, Blood Angels.
You want ranged attack guys? You got an Iron
Hand. You want rush attacks? It's just insane.
What they've done to Imperial Guard is honestly
like... Unforgivable, almost. It's just insane.
Unforgivable. Someone does ask in the chat how
they joined the Discord. I think we have a link
on the Discord. There should be a link. Please
let me know if it's not working. We used to have
a dedicated slash Discord slash Law Crimes, but
then we didn't have enough boosts. So now we
have, I think I've updated it to an evergreen
one. We do need 150 conscripts. Yeah, you could
have Tinkoff and 150 conscripts in Old Hammer.
Literally, what more could you ever have asked
for? You'd also have Talon and Catachan and everyone.
Eli, would you like this one? It's a big one.
Main Event Virgil, thank you very much for the
tent. I hope you take one thing away from all
this. This will happen to everything that you
love. Nothing you like will remain untouched,
and it will get further and further monetized
into meaninglessness. We are effed. Yes, you
are entirely correct, Main Event Virgil. But
I'm hoping we'll have a resurgence of well -made
things. At least in the video game industry,
it might happen, but people just buy slop. People
just love buying slop. It's happening everywhere,
which is the sad part. But I like to think that
things like Marvel and Disney and stuff are losing
money and that they're going to have to start
making good content again. I think Disney, et
cetera, are doing a course correction because
they're like, we're losing so much money. But
you look at like... I was going to say, you look
at the Destiny community now, the Destiny 2 community.
Oh, it's grim. They're all like, oh, all these
creators are like, I'm giving up. I'm not doing
it anymore. Halo's been gone for a while. I know.
All these things, it's the same analogy for Warhammer,
in my opinion, although Warhammer is actually
course correcting a little bit. These things
get extremely popular. They make a gajillion
dollars. They're saved. But now they're terrible
and soulless and everything you loved about it
is gone. warhammer is not nearly as bad as those
things but it happens but i think that the advantage
warhammer has it has a lot of passionate content
creators who talk about the cool stuff which
i think pushes the needle a little bit but also
whatever ip has like a publishing house for books
like none of them yeah so in that regard i think
warhammer is in a unique position if we could
stop getting downgraded combat patrols for a
higher cost um that would be pretty cool eBay
is doing the amount I've gotten. I've not bought
a new model from Games Workshop. I've only bought
eBay things. I've got three new Chaos Spawn that
I got three. Usually they come in boxes of two.
I got three from someone for 20 bucks, like 20
pounds. and they're usually like you know i mean
like i'm not paying full price ever again because
everyone is so willing to get rid of models to
be fair i've seen the comments are like you get
a free lieutenant titus mini for this book i'm
like that basically offsets the cost of the whole
thing nice um and yeah tom warren for two we
have achieved 100 votes for 150 Not anymore.
It was a back and forth race. It was going. It
teetered into eLife for a while. But the end
result is for the end of the poll, the results
are who won? Hal with New Warhammer, 52%. Eli
with Old Hammer, 48%. Probably the closest we've
ever done. Andy, you're supposed to do this.
Don't forget. well here's the thing um you should
you should have voted before you looked at the
chat because now there's pressure there is pressure
but no but no it's a case of like um call me
uh a noble bright buffoon if you must i do think
that new warhammer is good simply because of
the fact that it has more potential um with with
your arguments i understand like it's frustrating
when you see for example The debacle with 9th
to 10th edition where the Votan were released
as a brand new faction and within a few months
their faction was gutted and then they had to
start again from square one. But now we've got
a new codex for them. We've got new miniatures.
I think it's a case of they have the resources.
Out of sheer bloody -minded statistics, they're
going to do more good than bad, hopefully. I
hope. But my main thing is... I honestly believe
that I understand the critiques and the problems,
but I also think that without being too self
-congratulatory, we are helping to improve Warhammer
in our small way. And it sucks when things are
legended. It sucks when a faction gets more favoritism
than another. It sucks when the rules cripple
one faction and then another faction becomes
overpowered. But we've seen even with 10th edition,
them change course and go, we did this wrong.
We're going to patch this out in like an update
or, oh, we understand we need to start making
more Drukhari minis. And hopefully we'll get
some new stuff in 11th edition or before the
tail end of 10. We've got the Votan, like a brand
new faction just appeared out of nowhere. It
was like, oh, remember Squats? They're fun. And
I honestly think part of that was because people
were like, oh, we're watching these videos about.
squats and they're kind of cool why don't we
have why don't we have squats i i maybe i'm naive
yeah well new empress children minis are cool
i like some of the things i've done with the
new world eaters releases space marines are kind
of hit and miss but because there's so many you
hit more than all the misses are counted by the
hits and you get hits more than any other faction
so it's like oh cool um what old world is going
resurgence uh i love the cafe models i love the
stuff they're doing with like the new age of
sigma models and stuff like that they're just
like cooking every single time apart from the
uh the well they the corn followers who just
look generic but again you get like you get like
one miss with that with that part of the the
production company and yeah i i i honestly think
the new hammer is good i understand the problems
i understand that there are inconsistencies there
are things that are being dumbed down but the
nice thing about it is that because the fan is
so in the fan base is so integrated with the
the product when there's enough unrest they tend
to be quite more than any other company i've
seen as much as gw has problems even if it's
out of just sheer profit margins they're seeking
i do think they listen to the audience they go
oh we need to course correct from this problem
or that problem even little things like the only
hands debacle uh do we remember only hands no
oh so warhammer's main channel the official warhammer
youtube channel put in place about a year plus
ago where the artists the painters you couldn't
see their face no names on the video only their
hands were visible painting the minis then everyone
made an uproar going hey they deserve to have
credit and now their faces back on the thumbnails
and back on the videos they're now crediting
in white dwarf articles the people who painted
the miniatures they're now crediting the people
in the animations they're doing there are changes
going on i don't think it's productive to be
like let's just always whinge and moan but it
is also worthwhile looking at the past and saying
hey i liked when this was the standard and i
and i honestly think that the setting is going
in good directions i guess the the cataclysm
will be the tv show but yeah as long as they're
not like oh next year we're ending the setting
with an apocalypse event and warhammer is getting
reset i think we'll be okay uh which is why just
out of sheer volume of stuff i think that the
new the new hammer is my my cup of tea but i
under i also love old hammer i understand the
points that you made eli and also i've got to
be honest i was impressed by hal's uh meanness
in this video it's not my strong suit so i try
boys i should have i should have catered towards
the lore i talked too much about tabletop and
he doesn't play tabletop i know i need to make
andy i need to go make andy play but even with
tabletop i bought a book that i'll never read
and at least i got a free mini from it like cool
and it's titus and he's from that vidya game
so cool and he's a push fit i i looked at the
screen i'm like oh he's a push fit that's kind
of cool uh i wish they did more like i recently
discovered how gundam do their push fits i'm
like oh if warhammer like they did that like
i don't hate those i honestly don't care i don't
hate it either If you want to convert, just chop
stuff up and put it whatever. I don't think it's
really a big deal. I was going to say, if we
did this two years ago, I think it would be an
overwhelming old hammer victory. In the last
two years, like I've said, GW is course correcting
and things are getting a bit better. New lore
is not terrible anymore. The new models are decent.
I will die on the hill forever. That old Hammer
tabletop is better than new Hammer, and I think
it always has been since 8th edition. I don't
think it's ever gotten better. The lore and the
minis are where I can give leeway on, but the
tabletop I don't think has improved one bit.
I will say, though, I hope everyone enjoyed that
one. I would say that's 50 -50 in the end. It's
almost too close to cool. Yeah, I know. The reign
of Phil has ended. In theory. The century of
humiliation is over. I think that with that being
said, though, thank you everyone for listening,
for watching. Of course, again, if you wanted
to, you should join the Discord. We're there.
Go ahead, Andy. One more donation from Raw666
for $5 reduced. OW, I guess that's Old World,
is Old Warhammer 40k. Ow. Also, regulate background.
I was thinking having rotating factions pre -game
addition to focus. Interesting. Nice. Thank you
for listening, for watching. You guys, I hope
you all enjoyed this one. It's a nice, fun chat.
I was dreading this one. I was busy as well.
So I was like, no, I had to throw this together.
So I hope you all enjoyed. And we'll see you
guys all in the next one for a fun episode next
week. Peace. Oh, yes. See you next week, folks.
See you.