1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:12,000 Music 2 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Music 3 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:23,000 Hello everyone, it's LoreCrimes. We're back B2Gamers. 4 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:31,000 We're doing an interesting one. Today's our first ever versus on live format so it should be a bit of fun. 5 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:38,000 We get you guys telling us who you think is doing bad takes during the debate which will be quite fun to see. 6 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:45,000 Philip, I appreciate the energy but this is the one day I've not made my bed in recent memory. 7 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,000 I don't want to upset the dog. 8 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,000 He's off his game because he knows he's not going to win. 9 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,000 I know this is purely for the dog. Look at her. 10 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:00,000 Don't do that on the street. 11 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,000 Big welcome everybody. This is LoreCrimes. 12 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:13,000 We are going to talk about, well, today is a versus topic so we're just going to basically hit two things against each other and we have our glorious judges today, which will be Eli and Andy. 13 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:21,000 As a remembrance, they're the dark gods who will therefore judge how well us lore to YouTubers can represent each argument. 14 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:28,000 There'll be three rounds. If you have more time that you didn't use up, you can give it back. 15 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,000 Although there's always extra time for insults. 16 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:36,000 They are representing 1000 sons, baby. 1000 sons. 17 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,000 All is dust. All is dust. Praise be. 18 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,000 Colin, who are you defending? 19 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:45,000 The ultramarines, baby. The greatest of them all. 20 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,000 Oh, geez. 21 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,000 I'm going to throw up in my mouth. 22 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:54,000 It actually works out quite well as well. We're like blue team, red team, like literally the red team, literally the blue team. 23 00:01:54,000 --> 00:02:00,000 I will be Matt Ward's strongest soldier today. 24 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,000 Shout out to all his dust boys. I need your support. 25 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:12,000 Well, with the three rounds, we will try and represent. It's not necessarily a contest of we just slap them on the battlefield and then which one comes out victorious. 26 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:18,000 This is an all round thing. Any argument is a dub. This is like Age of Empires. You can build the wonder. 27 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,000 You know, you get 1000 years of victory. 28 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,000 So we will probably go, I'll just throw a new thing for people listening. 29 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:42,000 We will be doing donations at a little bit of an interval just to get the content push in. So we, you know, we very much appreciate you guys so much, but we will reading at certain points, but we will be read out and we will react to it and we will cry at the insults. 30 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,000 We appreciate that though. Andy, do you have the timer ready? 31 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:51,000 I do, but my mask doesn't allow me to unlock my phone quickly. So let's get. 32 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,000 There we go. Yeah, it goes. Who are you imposter? 33 00:02:55,000 --> 00:03:00,000 There we go. So I'm ready when you guys are and I believe Hal, you're starting on. 34 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:06,000 I am first I will try my best boys in the chat. Please pump me up. I need to. 35 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:11,000 Oh, spill spill some spill some dust on my boys. 36 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:22,000 Okay. All right. If you're ready then in on the count of three, your time starts. So your time starts in three, two, one, go. 37 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:29,000 Welcome fellow degenerates. Today we're talking about the 15th Legion, although it's also a bit of 40 K as well. 38 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:41,000 Thousand sons is clearly slightly better than my opponent. I won't trash them just yet though, but I want to mention with starting out on how they look. First of all, thousand sons. 39 00:03:41,000 --> 00:04:01,000 They are quite clearly intrinsically tied to ancient mythology in their ancient Egyptian sort of twist, which is can be said is a bit better than my other boy who is a basically a Greco Roman another, you know, copy. So too many of them. So as a unique design to the Legion, the Legion itself. 40 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:12,000 Its history was, it was a legion that was almost destroyed but brought back from the brink from a thousand Marines to perhaps probably the strongest fighting force the Imperium had during the Great Crusade. 41 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:25,000 But I'll start off with their humble beginnings on the world of Prospero. There is some link to terror, but Prospero themselves is the foundation. It is a jewel of the world was a jewel of the Imperium. 42 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:43,000 RIP. Prospero itself is like a massive like planet sized city like world that was filled with enormous structures that had like pyramids filled with libraries, knowledge, artifacts that humanity itself, or as the thousand sons about the Great Crusade did, they collected 43 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:59,000 so many things to build that golden age of mankind that would eventually come after the Great Crusade. And it's kind of like, it's the interesting spice to what is the bland, you know, white bread that is McCragg so I appreciate that. 44 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:16,000 The Legion itself is super interesting because they contain like many different cults even from the 30k Legion to the 40k one. I had to have to go through them because they are like pretty cool and it shows the specialization of each force rather than just one big uniform block of blue boys. 45 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:31,000 The cult of the Pyre, which is basically, they are the pyrotechnic ridiculous boys who are able to generate control shields. They are super cool. They are immune to fire. Just, it is stated like they are immune to fire. That's basically it. 46 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:47,000 There is the Pavoni, they were able to use like psychically generated power to manipulate body chemistry. There's instances in the war, in the law where someone used it to basically transform Lucis the Eternal to look exactly like Fulgrim, and that guy was, oh he did die after but it's okay he wasn't from that. 47 00:05:47,000 --> 00:06:06,000 The Atheneans who are my favorite, they are basically telepaths so anyone who is facing them in combat, they can really read your next moves, it's pretty easy. How much time do I have Annie, just wondering. The cult of the Raptora, oh I'm good I'm good. The cult of the Raptora, they telekinesis groups who they train by using their powers and they basically like float up. 48 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:14,000 They are essentially like, I do describe them as like a Dungeons and Dragons team at all times and I'll go into a bit more of that because they are super cool in combat. 49 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:27,000 A couple of the other cults, again there's just too many to list, but some of the more faulty ones, a cult of change, duplicity, manipulation, mutation, prophecy, scheming and time. I mean what can the Thousand Sons not do? 50 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:49,000 In combat they were pretty much unrivaled compared to all other legions. They essentially as I said earlier, they are like a D&D party. In one kill team of the Thousand Sons which has all these different cultists and all these different, sorry all these different cults within them, they could basically do any job and they were worth 10 times the number of Astartes that were in other legions. 51 00:06:49,000 --> 00:07:03,000 Big bonus, the Thousand Sons killed lots of space wolves, boys. They deserved it, I'm gonna say. The space wolves fired first, you know what I mean? Fun fact, space wolves run at people with no helmets, we guys love that stuff. 52 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:19,000 But they essentially, it took the entire legion of the space wolves, the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence just to fight on equal strength against an ambush Thousand Sons. That should show you the level of like strength they actually brought to the table. 53 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:40,000 But something a bit more outside of combat, they were philosophers. They were men of great knowledge, much as like the Ultramanians were great administrators. There's always people to rule things but there are people to guide humanity in, you know, throughout the Great Crusade to be better than just soldiers and not just something like the worldy just between both despise. 54 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:52,000 So the post rubric of Ahriman, the Thousand Sons sorcerers, were super empowered by the ritual to the point that, as it states in the lore, basically each Thousand Sons sorcerer is the equivalent of like a full squad of Grey Knights. 55 00:07:52,000 --> 00:08:04,000 So I don't know what Ultramanians can really do against that. The Thousand Sons, basically knowledge to them is knowledge. Let's not be ignorant like this rotting Imperium. 56 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:11,000 They, you know, knowledge of it came from the Eldar, the Black Library, it has to be raided. My boys, when boys see the Black Library, they've got to go. 57 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:20,000 The Necrons, all knowledge doesn't matter. They have access to things like, you know, screams, voorteched beasts, pink holes. 58 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:26,000 Three, two, one, and that's your time. 59 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:34,000 And they just went on a rampage at the end of it. And all the people are stuck. 60 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,000 You had me stuck in the giggle loop, bro. 61 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:41,000 I was trying not to laugh for half of Hal's freaking speech. 62 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:46,000 Every time I looked at Carla's camera, I had to say, it came back. 63 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:56,000 Carla was saying stuff about me, so I was trying not to laugh. And then you had Carla in the giggle loop, you're trying not to laugh, and then you think about that, then you want to laugh some more. 64 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:01,000 I didn't see Colin like, throwing her in the mouth, just covering his mouth. 65 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,000 I have cool stuff. Colin, are you ready? 66 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:11,000 I am. I, once, give me just a minute maybe. 67 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,000 I'm sabotaging myself is what I'm doing. 68 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,000 I can't wait for you to ruin yourself. 69 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,000 That's all right. All right, I'm ready. I'm ready to go. 70 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:26,000 On the count of three, okay. Three, two, one, your time starts now. 71 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:35,000 Now I'm so confident in the Blue Boy Ares boys that I'm not, we're going to hold off on some criticisms till later. 72 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:43,000 Next round, we're just going to start, you know, the Horus Heresy. What legion had the most commendations, awards, compliances out of all of them? 73 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:49,000 Oh, that'd be the Ultramarines. No, yes. Yeah, it was it was Gilliman and the Blueberries. 74 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:57,000 It was a combined diplomatic and military. It was him. Gilliman was the star baby boy. He was the best. 75 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:07,000 And how did they do that? Because Gilliman, in spite of, you know, fighting against the knowledge Primarch, isn't a fool, unlike the knowledge Primarch. 76 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:15,000 Gilliman knows that, well, you need to be effective in not just, you know, war, not just peace, not just knowledge, not just all these things. 77 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:19,000 They got to do everything. If you want to run an empire, you have to be smart with it. 78 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:28,000 You can't, you know, you need to take care of the planet, you need to take care of your troops, which is why it's very underrated with Gilliman and the Ultramarines. 79 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:38,000 And you're good at logistics. You go, oh, it's no fun. I can blow up a planet with my mind or I can rip people apart with my pinky finger like some of the other Primarchs. 80 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:48,000 And then you're Gilliman. You go, yeah, I set up a mini empire in five minutes while none of you were looking and none of you were ever going to take this planet because it's now a fortress. 81 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,000 But beyond that, you know, even within that, Rogadorn can be better than that. 82 00:10:51,000 --> 00:11:02,000 So how about I'll even discuss some ultramarine losses because their losses are the sort of thing that by themselves, I fully believe, make them look good. 83 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:10,000 Calth, an act of self-defense. The funny thing about Calth is that imagine literally any of the other legions going through that. 84 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:18,000 There'd be no more legion. The ultramarines lost 120,000 Marines and were like, all right, that's it, Lorgar, we're done playing around. 85 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,000 Now we're actually going to get serious and just come after you. 86 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:31,000 And with like a third or a very big portion of the legion just dead now, I think it was a they still killed like a third of all world wordbearers present. 87 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,000 Something like that. I remember seeing either way. 88 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:39,000 It was a lot for a complete ambush where they were completely intermingled and backfooted and everything went wrong. 89 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,000 They got a one to three kill ratio, which given the circumstances, pretty great. 90 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:50,000 And it just didn't matter because after losing hundreds of thousands of Marines, they were like, you know, we're just we're going to go to Terra now. 91 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:57,000 Oh, we're also going to fight off a massive traitor onslaught so Sanguineous can get there first because he says he's got to get there first. 92 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,000 You know, they they know they know to listen to other people when they've got some important say. 93 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,000 So they listen to Sanguineous, got him on the way. 94 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:16,000 And then they went right there themselves, ready to win to the point that Horace in part was hurrying his duel against the emperor because he knew the blueberries were on their way and it wasn't going to look good. 95 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,000 But that's just the heresy. 96 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:32,000 I don't know how I can possibly recount 10,000 years of Matt Ward glory, but I will try in these two minutes because for one, this might not be the most impressive, but there's a piece of art that makes it in context very great. 97 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,000 Marnius Calgar beat an avatar of Cain to death. 98 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,000 I'm so confident in my victory here. 99 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,000 I'm banking on that as part of it. 100 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,000 Now you might think, oh, God, everyone beats an avatar of Cain to death. 101 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:48,000 There's a lovely piece of Eldar art where Eldrad and Magnus are 1v1ing and it's pretty close. 102 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:53,000 Like, you know, Magnus isn't winning and then Cain is just lumbering on up. 103 00:12:53,000 --> 00:13:00,000 If the Thousand Sons were really that great, that elder army would be gone because against the ultramarines, that elder army was destroyed. 104 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:04,000 There's, of course, the battle of Macrag against the Tyranids. 105 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,000 They beat two high fleets pretty much. 106 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,000 They beat them on the ground. 107 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,000 Marnius Calgar got up in the Navy and blew it away. 108 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:15,000 The second Tyranic War, another resounding ultramarine dub. 109 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:20,000 There was Cato Sicarius, both embodying the Imperium. 110 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,000 I will not do diplomacy with this Tao. 111 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,000 There's him embodying the ultramarine spirit. 112 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,000 He was, you know, for all the crap we like to give him. 113 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,000 He is a very noble, heroic little ultramarine. 114 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:34,000 Uriel Ventress, the Demarque Laba just ruining Hanzo and all those lovely things. 115 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,000 These are ultramarine characters doing it. 116 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:41,000 Legion, you cannot, you can get the Legion wrong once and I'll give it, I'll give them credit. 117 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:46,000 I'm sure the Thousand Sons could get them once and then the ultramarines would go, oh, so this is how they're going to fight. 118 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,000 Goodbye Thousand Sons victory. 119 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,000 Those are pretty much Corvus' Corax's own words in his battle against Giliman. 120 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,000 Just because the Thousand Sons are wizards, great. 121 00:13:55,000 --> 00:14:01,000 There's plenty of things in 40k that can beat wizards and the ultramarines have easy access to all of them, 122 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:06,000 especially because in the 41st, 42nd millennium, Giliman's back leading the Imperium. 123 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:13,000 Anything the ultramarines need to win, they will be provided because they have an empire, they have an empire within an empire. 124 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:18,000 They have every single system imaginable to fight off these marines, these chaos marines, 125 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:24,000 who are stuck on their little sad crybaby world and can't do anything about it because Giliman is great. 126 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,000 And the marines are great. 127 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,000 That's your time, that's your time. 128 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:32,000 Okay, so arousing first efforts. 129 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,000 Cater to Kari's diplomacy. 130 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:36,000 Yeah. 131 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:43,000 Before me and Eli cast judgment on the first part, we're going to read through the donations we've had so far. 132 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:51,000 So we had one from Paralloy's, Paralloy's, Paralloy's Tortoise, me and the homies snorting that Magnus Deluxe psychic booger sugar. 133 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,000 Thank you for the five. 134 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,000 We got one from Danger Tickle. Great name. 135 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:05,000 Thousand Suns trim painting hurts so much, but I do it for my sweet Magni magic. 136 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:12,000 And we also had one from Joseph Pollard saying my vote is for the ultramarine not because I like them, but for the fact I hate the Thousand Suns more. 137 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,000 I'll shoot myself in the foot. 138 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,000 This is an argument based round. Listen to Hal's argument. 139 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,000 I will win in the field of debate. 140 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,000 And we also got one from just now from Elliot Hortz. 141 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:32,000 What are we going to get a watch along for Colin's favorite anime Sword Art Online. 142 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:36,000 Vote against Hal for starting that I like that shit anime. 143 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,000 Everyone loves it. I've made more jokes. 144 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,000 Andy, Eli, what did you think of our representation so far? 145 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,000 How did we cook? 146 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,000 You could have pretty. 147 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:56,000 It's not often that I see Colin care about something or try. 148 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,000 Dead soldiers eyes. 149 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,000 Limited supply of energy. I got to spend it with somebody. 150 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:09,000 Somebody in the chat said, bro betrayed Rose betraying Eldar bro is actually trying to win. 151 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:13,000 I can respect that. 152 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:18,000 I must say that was quite a accolades heavy first round. 153 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,000 This Legion did this. 154 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:30,000 I quite liked how Colin said this is paraphrasing but reminded me of that thing from the Justice League movie. 155 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,000 What's your superpower? 156 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,000 I'm rich. We just got so much stuff. 157 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:44,000 And that was basically the argument. Yeah, they just got like a bajillion people but not in a world eaters way where they just throw them into the meat grinder. 158 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,000 Eli, are you leaning either way so far? 159 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:55,000 I will acknowledge pretty hard to beat the ultramarines. I'm not going to lie. 160 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,000 Yeah, I must say. 161 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:09,000 Pitting logistics nerds versus magic nerds. Magic is quite nice but then like accountancy is also quite like, oh, I get what tax break relief. 162 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,000 But there's just too many W's. 163 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:19,000 They have a lot of characters as well but I'm sure there'll be some interesting turn of events in the in the second part. 164 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,000 So this is a three minute section. 165 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:27,000 Last nation by commanders mighty schlong of sickness, best name ever. 166 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:33,000 I feel like comparing Primark alone would decide this. This is true. This is true. 167 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:42,000 H. Milov said Colin wins in Quidditch but Hal gets the snitch. Thank you for the. 168 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:47,000 I'm ready. So yes, three minutes. So are you ready? How are we going to? 169 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:52,000 Yes, this is true. We're going to turn around to a little bit. I still have some things. 170 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,000 Save save some for the last minute because we'll need that. 171 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:02,000 You're the last week. So your time starts on the count of three. So three, two, one and go. 172 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,000 Well, Colin was right. We said earlier, you are you learn a lot from your failures. 173 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:11,000 So I thought I'd acknowledge the weaknesses of the suns because I might as well get it out of the way. 174 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:19,000 Point number one, first weakness, Magnus the Red terrible Primark. Honestly, they deserve better. 175 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:23,000 The thousand suns. Magnus the Red is the biggest nail in their coffin. 176 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:28,000 And I'm so glad that so much of their story is essentially them almost rebelling against him. 177 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:33,000 But then, you know, thank you, GW, for the inevitable fate that they had to receive. 178 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:38,000 Part two weaknesses. Zinch perpetually stuck in its game, basically. 179 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:44,000 So they kind of are at the whim of a chaos god. That kind of sucks. But aren't we all? 180 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,000 But there is no more flesh change anymore. So that's a big W and they're all stronger. 181 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:57,000 Weaknesses number three, trim, way too much trim on the models. Just too much trim, unfortunately. 182 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:02,000 Last weakness, no Genesis chapter. There is no Genesis chapter. 183 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:10,000 So thousand suns are in short supply. But next is strengths. Strength number one, genuinely really interesting. 184 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,000 The tragedy of their existence makes them, people want to go read their books. 185 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:22,000 I think a lot of the ultramarine books, they have standout characters in some other books, but standalone ones, like there's a lot of them. 186 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:27,000 Just the average sorcerer is just way stronger than an ultramarine. 187 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:36,000 Like just the ultramarine have access to the Imperium, but if it was like the ultramarine chapter of a thousand of them or the Legion, I'm pretty sure we take them. 188 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:46,000 Benefit, more than one shade of blue. The ultramarines, they only have one shade of blue, but thank God the thousand suns have access to loads of different like cults things. 189 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:51,000 So you can paint different ways to your models. Point number are the strength. 190 00:19:51,000 --> 00:20:00,000 Really fun on the tabletop is actually really fun to play the thousand suns. There's so many things that you can do with them and their models are just fantastic as a range. 191 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,000 Point strength, zangors. You don't have zangors in all of these stuff. 192 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:12,000 Last point, kind of, they do hate Magnus, so they kind of get over the fact and the best bit, obviously, is the fall of Prospero. 193 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:18,000 They actually rebel. They're the only people who give a middle finger to their Primark and say, no, we defy you and we're going to fight for our lives. 194 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:26,000 And some of the strengths like their characters are generally interesting. I think a lot of ultramarine characters sadly do like I've read some of the Euroventress books. 195 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:36,000 They're a bit mid, some of them. They are a bit mid. I won't I won't lie, but a lot of the thousand suns book, the characters, particularly the horrors, heresy ones are written with such good interest. 196 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:44,000 And you actually give a crap about them. My boy, Ariemann, cannot take a W to save his life, but he keeps on going. 197 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,000 He's no Marneus Calgo who gets given his great easy victory. 198 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:54,000 Because again, if someone becomes like a Mary Sue character or Steve Stu character, you kind of fall out of interest. 199 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,000 I am I'm a guy who likes the underdog and so I pretty much appreciate the thousand suns. 200 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:07,000 And the last point really is just that, yeah, I was to work the model range, basically. I paint their models. It's difficult, but once it's really done, it's glorious. 201 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,000 Your time's up. Your time's up. 202 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:14,000 It's a pretty strong opening for Mr. Hal. Not gonna lie. 203 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:15,000 Yeah. 204 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,000 Oh my god, this is tough. 205 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,000 Off your chest. 206 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:25,000 All right, Colin, are you ready to do your rebuttal for that second part? 207 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,000 You're on mute. 208 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,000 I am indeed. 209 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,000 Perfect. 210 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:32,000 Oh hello. 211 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,000 Are you the people? 212 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,000 No. 213 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:36,000 Yep, she heard barking. 214 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:37,000 Dog break. 215 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,000 Colin cam. 216 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:40,000 Dog break. 217 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,000 I did not want to be satanized by an active dog. 218 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,000 It's back there. 219 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,000 There's no way that's a bloodthirster. 220 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,000 What is the big model on your table? 221 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:50,000 Where? 222 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,000 With wings. 223 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,000 That's Karl Franz. 224 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:54,000 That one? 225 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,000 Nice. Yeah. 226 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,000 Yeah. 227 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,000 Yeah, cool. 228 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,000 Right. 229 00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,000 Let's get going. 230 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,000 Okay, your time starts on the count of three. 231 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,000 So three, two, one, and go. 232 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:15,000 Well, I'd like to start my second round by thanking Hal for committing argument suicide by somehow trying to portray the Thousand Sons combat patrol box as a positive. 233 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,000 That is a legendary move. 234 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,000 I have the ultramarine one. 235 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:20,000 All of them. 236 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,000 There's my aunt. 237 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:22,000 He's got a point. 238 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:27,000 You look at a combat patrol box, not even that, you look at a space marine box. 239 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,000 Who's on the cover? 240 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,000 Oh, would you look at that? 241 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,000 It's the ultramarines. 242 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,000 But, you know, I will take a page out of your book, I'll discuss some weaknesses. 243 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,000 One is they're very Greco-Roman. 244 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,000 They've got some similar weaknesses to the Romans. 245 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,000 Like I said, you can wrong foot them once. 246 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,000 It'll probably hurt. 247 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:47,000 The strength is, fun thing about the Romans, they lost a lot of battles. 248 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,000 Pyrrhus Evaperus won his battle. 249 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,000 Hannibal beat the shit out of them left, right, and center. 250 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,000 They won those wars. 251 00:22:54,000 --> 00:23:00,000 And much like their inspiration, ripoff, whatever, the ultramarines, you can lose plenty of fights as the ultramarines. 252 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:01,000 They have more. 253 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:06,000 And not in a, you know, like a stereotypical Red Army, throw them into the meat grinder. 254 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,000 No, not one step back. 255 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:13,000 Every loss they replace is, every loss is spent wisely. 256 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,000 There is not an ounce of waste in the ultramarines. 257 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,000 The Thousand Sons are chaos. 258 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:26,000 There's, by their very nature, even though they're the Zech Intelligent Legion, ounces of waste, scheming, plotting, backstabbing. 259 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:41,000 That just happens because it's a chaos legion, which, you know, in a duel, you don't want your second in command stabbing your first in command for no other reason than he'd like to be in first, which does not happen in the ultramarines. 260 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:47,000 Genesis chapter is genuinely, I know it's silly, but also huge, because again, an ultramarine dies. 261 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,000 He's back immediately. 262 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,000 They got another one. 263 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:57,000 And the funny thing is, you know, I will maybe in an outright 1v1 battle, just chapter v chapter. 264 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,000 Maybe I'll give that to you. 265 00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,000 Maybe the ultramarines would lose. 266 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:04,000 That doesn't matter, because the ultramarines don't put themselves in that situation. 267 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,000 Let's ignore Gilman and the whole Imperium. 268 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,000 500 worlds of Macrog. 269 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:13,000 That is 500 worlds of industry, manpower, resources, everything. 270 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,000 Replacement marines constantly. 271 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:19,000 Ultramarines are churning out marines compared to a lot of other chapters, like clockwork. 272 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:29,000 Especially compared to the Thousand Sons, who I just hope someone decides to be a wizard and they can give them some cool blue armor, because otherwise they're not making new ones. 273 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,000 Not easily anyways. 274 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,000 It's the ultramarines have every single advantage. 275 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,000 And again, Thousand Sons fight them once. 276 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,000 The ultramarines know their tricks. 277 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,000 They're smart. 278 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,000 They're adaptable. 279 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:44,000 They might have faltered a bit between Gilman, like his death and his return. 280 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,000 They're back in form. 281 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:52,000 They were never truly weak and useless, but now they're back on top of their game more than ever before. 282 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,000 And just to top it all off. 283 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:55,000 Ten seconds. 284 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,000 Blue and gold. 285 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,000 You know what? 286 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,000 I think there's a reason the Thousand Sons changed their color scheme during the heresy in modern days. 287 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,000 They saw the ultramarines and went, we need that. 288 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,000 Oh, wow. 289 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,000 The co-opting colors. 290 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,000 Oh my. 291 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:17,000 There was one thing I wanted to pull you off on though, Colin. You said there's no backstabbing in the ultramarines. 292 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,000 One word for you. 293 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,000 Leandros. 294 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,000 Shit. 295 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,000 Now, to be fair, that wasn't backstabbing. 296 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,000 That was just incredibly misguided. 297 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,000 Loyalty. 298 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,000 Morality. 299 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,000 I'm not going to say loyalty. 300 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,000 He was trying to be, man, definitively Leandros. 301 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,000 Holy shit. 302 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:46,000 To give him the slight amount of credit due, he was doing what he thought was best. 303 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:51,000 He wasn't backstabbing Titus because he wanted to be the guy in charge. 304 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:59,000 Is there any, do we have any questions that they need us to, from Andy and Eli, that you want us to either rebut or throw? 305 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,000 I mean, I think I've just done that pretty heavy. 306 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:02,000 Yeah, that's a. 307 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,000 Punch to what it's called. 308 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,000 I handed over to Eli, anything you wanted to mention? 309 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,000 Or review, review how we're doing so far. 310 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:19,000 That's pretty good. Could the power of Ahriman defeat the power of Cato Secares in 1v1? 311 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,000 I don't know. 312 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:28,000 The whole point is he's meant to be, he is, he is the underdog Ahriman. He's just not meant to win. 313 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,000 So I generally think they wouldn't let him have it. 314 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:36,000 Even though Ahriman could invert Cato Secares inside out. 315 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:46,000 I mean, here's a question. Do you honestly, because you mentioned about like, oh, Uriel Ventress has some mid books, but like. 316 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:56,000 Can you honestly say you prefer, if you were to get all the Thousand Suns material of lore and all the Ultramarines books, could you honestly say that the Thousand Suns books are better? 317 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:03,000 Oh, without a doubt, because I know there's only two bad ones. There's Crimson King, Horus, Heresy and the one the more recent Ahriman ones. 318 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:12,000 Like all the other ones are kind of interesting or they play interesting roles in the plot or they delve into the Thousand Suns like they have Legion culture, all that stuff. 319 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:21,000 The Ultramarine books I have read, like, you know what I mean, like I feel like with some Uriel Ventress ones, I could miss a book and I wouldn't miss anything, you know what I mean? 320 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,000 You don't like the Demon Choo Choo engine. 321 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:30,000 Well, no, that's not a miss book, but like, I'm pretty sure at some point, some of the. 322 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:41,000 Some Ultramarine books are so kind of, they're a bit odd, if you know what I mean, and they definitely were like, Guy goes on an adventure. There is no character change. He does adventure and then that's it. 323 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,000 That's what happens when you got so many books, not all of them can be bangers. 324 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:55,000 But that moment where Uriel asks to put down the Lord of the Unfleshed or whatever it's called and he's like, does the Emperor love me? He's like, yes, he does. 325 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,000 And I must admit. 326 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:12,000 And even if it's like kind of generic in like scope, I do find when I whenever I read a Thousand Suns book, it's like, I went into the third numeration, and then I did, I'm just, oh shut up, nerd, just cast a spell. 327 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:22,000 So I think both have like, flaws, and yeah, the most recent RM and stuff I've been like, I binged all five and I was like, oh, that last one was rough. 328 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,000 It was. 329 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:39,000 So is it two minutes for the final round? Before we do that though, I'll quickly read out the, we've had two more donations, one from Donkeyman USA, saying the other day I slammed four shots of vodka and made my tech priest verminous. 330 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,000 I made my dominance with five clan rats grafted to it. 331 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:49,000 And we also have one from Kibanda's Mighty Shlong of Sickness. 332 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:56,000 I know like, Ultramarines would have more variety by virtue of the fact that they can use any generic Space Marine unit. 333 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,000 I play Ultramarines and Thousand Suns. 334 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,000 Oh, do you want to read this one? 335 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,000 Sure. 336 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:10,000 I'm going to pull my foreheads open for advertisement yet. I'm going to pull my local hobby shop, that is pretty cool. 337 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,000 Thank you Danger too, cool. 338 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,000 We gotta get that before Bricky does. 339 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:15,000 Yeah. 340 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,000 Oh my gosh. 341 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:24,000 Well there isn't in one of the poor hammer ones he's got like on the thumbnail. 342 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:30,000 But yes, so the final round, are you ready for the vitriol round, Hal? 343 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:35,000 Ready. It's two minutes, so we'll put up a poll in a bit. 344 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,000 So brace yourselves on the count of three, Hal. You ready? 345 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,000 I'm ready. 346 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:45,000 All right, three, two, one, let her rip. 347 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:55,000 I genuinely, as Colin was mentioning earlier, I think the problem with the Ultramarines is that they have to draw so much from the rest of the Imperium that they are like, they are literally the master of none. 348 00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:10,000 So when they fight something like the Thousand Sons, the Ultramarines, just the Ultramarines, are generally just not equipped to fight them and it's pretty much a, I mean I know like the writing for Chief Librarian Togurius is ridiculous but it's still not enough to beat Thousand Sons. 349 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:14,000 I actually can't knock Gilliman. There is nothing I can say negatively about Gilliman. 350 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:25,000 The fact is, when Gilliman has returned, the rest of the Legion and the Ultramarines is now like way more uninteresting compared to Gilliman. It is the Gilliman show, unfortunately. 351 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:35,000 The Homeworld, Macragge, I just generally don't vibe with Macragge as much as something like, you know, Prospero and then like the Magic City of Dust with all kinds of weird stuff happening in there. 352 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,000 Macragge just seems like plain white toast, as I said before. 353 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:46,000 The Ultramarines, again, as much as they are like cool, when they have Jennings as a chapter, they are just a thousand men. 354 00:30:46,000 --> 00:31:02,000 And Connor's right, they have so much resources but yet it's just going to be a thousand of them. Like if it's with Manowar Manow, they really just do struggle. There's so many Thousand Sons war bands, like different variations and stuff that make them like really cool and legit and they explore things like magic and the Ultramarines are just dude in armor. 355 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:15,000 You know, how many more space marines can we get? The model range is way better for Thousand Sons in Horus Heresy and 40k. Shout out to Rylinor, my boy. Thank you Thousand Sons for doing Rylinor. 356 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:23,000 And my last one, I will save this for later. Mr. Ultramarine man himself, Gilliman, he brought Primaris Marines. 357 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:39,000 It's really his fault that Primaris Marines have been brought to the stage and I really think that, particularly like Eli here, you can very much see like this, this was like a just a curse, you know, shout out to all the first founding things who are now being transformed into, you know, who actually died in the Rubicon project. 358 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:57,000 Yeah, who died in Rubicon. And also shout out to... Done. That's your time. Oh, and you got to flex with the model. See how gorgeous our models are. See how gorgeous our models are. You don't have this. You have Kalgar. 359 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:11,000 I mean, really, I've got France. Yeah, Gilliman's somewhere over there. Yeah, we got Gilliman. To be fair, the returned Gilliman slaps, that model slaps. For the audio listings I'm presenting, right, Magnus the Red model on the screen. Yeah. 360 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:21,000 The one he went, oh, I don't know, I just, I enjoy painting as a hobby. I'm not that good. I will be counting that into my verdicts by the way. 361 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:36,000 I'm all gonna win now. All right. You're ready for your rebuttal, Colin? You got two minutes? I am. Okay. Brace yourselves, everyone. On the count of three. Three, two, one, go for it. 362 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:51,000 You know, before the hate spews to warm up, I'll give one last actual argument. You know, the Thousand Suns, all those different varied warbands, legions, crazy how they never work together, have like three and a half planets tops to call their own. 500 worlds. I think I know who's winning that argument. 363 00:32:51,000 --> 00:33:10,000 But beyond that, you know, the funny thing is, it's very funny, the Thousand Suns were defeated by the Space Wolves, because they're the real dogs, because I pull out a vacuum cleaner and they would run away like Athena would. All this dust. Yeah. Okay, you'd lose to a fucking Swiffer. Great. What a legion. 364 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:27,000 And you know, with the flesh changes gone. Yes, because it melted most of them. That's why the flesh change is gone. And the way they got rid of it melted almost all the rest. They're called the Thousand Suns, because there were 1000 of them left before Magnus saved them. 365 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:40,000 Which, you know, hey, Gilman didn't need, the Ultramarines didn't need Gilman while they were the war born, they were kicking ass left, right and center and they lost like one major engagement, and then proceeded to keep doing nothing but win after the fact. 366 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:52,000 Oh, Thousand Suns, they're not even the best goddamn psychers of the galaxy. For one, actual zinch demons are. For two, Eldar's psychic powers don't make you blow up when you use them. Oh, I'm a Thousand Suns wizard, I cast Dune Bolt. 367 00:33:52,000 --> 00:34:06,000 Oh, my hand is now a tentacle and I'm melting from the acid it makes. Oh well you good wizard. Pharaoh Tigerius talked to the hive mind and was like, I'm good, I'm good. If Ahriman did that he probably would like combust. 368 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaking of Ahriman, oh, the haunted Thousand Suns character, you're damn right he's an underdog. He didn't just horribly lose to Eldar, he lost to the Yunari. The Yunari. 369 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:28,000 I'm the Eldar man. You know it's over for you. You have no credibility left. I don't care what you've done before that. You lost to the Yunari. It's so over for you. 370 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:36,000 So y'all, what are the rest of the Thousand Suns doing? They've got a finger up in one hole and hoping that they can pull it out and do it themselves. 371 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:52,000 Oh, that was fun. Wow. That was a... That was a heck of a blow. I thought mentioning Leandros was low and it's like the Yunari. 372 00:34:52,000 --> 00:35:07,000 It is really funny though in the book where it's all like, she's like, oh, Ahriman you're trying to like resurrect these guys. Or like this. He's like, ah, dead. Trolled. 373 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:13,000 My boy is abused because he cannot, he literally is not allowed to win. 374 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:24,000 Wow. Well, not being funny, it was a daunting prospect to... I think the main thing that the Thousand Suns have is Magnus. 375 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:32,000 He's insane. He's literally insane. Like he just sits and doesn't move. 376 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:43,000 I'm a bit deluded. But before we cast our verdicts, I'm going to read out the next ones. I've been reading a lot. So how about Eli? Do you want to read out these ones for me? 377 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,000 Yeah, sure. Let me go up here. 378 00:35:46,000 --> 00:36:02,000 Yeah, incoming backup, Boingobb's strongest soldier. Only way to decide this is who is more likely to gain Boingobb's favor. As his high priest, I could officiate such an important discussion, but it is up to you to decide. Thank you for the 30 shekels, sir. 379 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:14,000 And then we have Stephen Cooper. Thank you for the $10. Inside of you there are two space marines. One says Magnus did nothing wrong. The other says Prospero was a good start. I like this comment. 380 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:18,000 Prospero was a good start. 381 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:27,000 I think that was actually my first book on the Horus Heiress. I did it in a weird order. That was my entry level getting into Horus Heiress. 382 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:31,000 It was also my first book, weirdly enough. 383 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,000 I think I read a Fulgrim. That's hard to remember. 384 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:39,000 When Iman Rus broke Magnus' back, I cried tears of joy. 385 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:49,000 I felt that. My poor T-Sons are like, you know, they're in a horrible relationship where they just can't get away. 386 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:54,000 But thank God they are the shining light that keeps me going. 387 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,000 Yeah. Right. So, moment of truth. 388 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:05,000 Eli, who has your votes? I was going to ask if there are any final questions. Oh yeah, final questions. 389 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,000 That's a good point. I forgot what I wanted to say. 390 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:16,000 I'll go for the low hanging fruit. Who would win in a fight? Iman or Tigurius? 391 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,000 I mean, Iman just, I just don't think he should win it. 392 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,000 Because I know he's overpowered. He would, but I don't want him to. 393 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,000 Hal, you're defending the Fowls and Sons here. 394 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:31,000 Because if they, Iman could just easily kill him. But I don't know if GW would ever let that happen. 395 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:36,000 Just how they like, like Eisenhorn is never allowed to be happy for a single moment. 396 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:42,000 Just how like the Ynari are never meant to get any new lore. Like it's just a constant thing written in stone. 397 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,000 And the Ultramarines will inevitably always win. 398 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:51,000 And then you're like, when you see an Ultramarine in a story, do you ever think they'll lose? 399 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,000 Do you ever wonder if they'll actually win? Because you're the greatest of them all. 400 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:55,000 Nails of victory. 401 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,000 I would say it's boring. Like that's the greatest crime of all. 402 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:05,000 I mean, to be fair, they do go, they do sometimes not have a good, I mean, Kalgar lost all of his limbs in one fight. 403 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,000 That would still be that stupid swarm. 404 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,000 He was the knight and Monty Python going, oh, bite your legs off, you know. 405 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,000 There used to be a first company. 406 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:14,000 Yeah. 407 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:23,000 When I read A Thousand Sons book, I know there's a possibility either the character will come out victorious or lose in the end, like, or be a pyrrhic victory. 408 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,000 The Ultras won, I already know the ending. 409 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:35,000 Yeah, but then again, there's five Armin, and you can always be like, oh, let me guess, Armin tries to cure the flesh change and he fails five times in a row. 410 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,000 Once he did one to my accident. 411 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,000 In that case, it's Armin will try to reverse the rubric. 412 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,000 Well, it's not just, there is more than Armin, of course. 413 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:51,000 It's under Kaon, obviously, Mr. you know, battled, you know, resurrected Horus and all that stuff, won the Black Legion. 414 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,000 They are more than just Armin. 415 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,000 I forgot he was there and it wasn't just Avedon, to be honest. 416 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,000 Yeah. 417 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:01,000 But that's kind of a testament, though, is like, who's the other cool character from A Thousand Sons? 418 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:06,000 Oh, A Thousand Sons defector, like, hmm, I don't know. 419 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,000 I do like Kaon. 420 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,000 Any questions from you, Eli? 421 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:11,000 I don't think so. 422 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,000 I think I forgot what I was going to say. 423 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,000 So, amazing. 424 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:20,000 If I can answer that question, I'm not going to commit argument, you know, self in a way. 425 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,000 Vigourious is winning. 426 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:23,000 Yeah. 427 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,000 Yeah, but I wasn't bored watching it. 428 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,000 I wasn't bored watching it because it was damn spectacular. 429 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:34,000 Hey, Colin, for such an Ultramarine lover, how many Horus, Heresy, Ultramarine novels have you read? 430 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,000 Don't worry about it. 431 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:37,000 Cheese. 432 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,000 Oh, no, I counter. 433 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,000 Colin, how many Thousand Sons Horus, Heresy books have you read? 434 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,000 Same amount as the Ultramarines, maybe. 435 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:45,000 I've read them. 436 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,000 Yeah. 437 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:52,000 By the way, we got some more donations from H. Mihailov. 438 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,000 Can Vigourious threaten you with testicular torsion? 439 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,000 Yes, every cycle can do that. 440 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,000 That's not a Space Marine Psycho. 441 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:02,000 I'm just nerd, Tarek. 442 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:03,000 I'll read this. 443 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,000 How looking like human Mr. Rapper. 444 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,000 The guy from Arthur, I just looked it up. 445 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,000 Yeah. 446 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,000 The principal from Arthur. 447 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,000 Or whatever he is. 448 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:15,000 Oh my gosh. 449 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:20,000 And the kids yearn for Boingob lore, fellas, especially for the reading of the epic of Boingob. 450 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:21,000 I'm looking at you, Andy. 451 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,000 Don't fuck us out of content. 452 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,000 I'll try not to. 453 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,000 We can read the three sentences of his lore. 454 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:30,000 Yes. 455 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,000 You guys are writing your final decision. 456 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:39,000 Honestly, I think... 457 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:52,000 The only thing is, it does feel like punching down a little bit, but I've got to go with the Ultramarines, even though they have a Leandros, which I'm not going to forgive. 458 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,000 That was a big... 459 00:40:54,000 --> 00:41:05,000 And if Space Marine 2 doesn't have a training room where you can do target practice on cardboard cutouts of Leandros, it's going down in my estimation as well. 460 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,000 But I think I'm going to have to give it to Ultramarines. 461 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,000 If it has modding capacity, I'm sure someone will put that in. 462 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:18,000 It's the versus mode where it's 12 people, 6v6, all ganging up on Leandros, just gutting him over and over again. 463 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,000 Whoever does more damage wins. 464 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,000 Yeah. 465 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:31,000 I understand. It's hard because we were... Yeah, it's Ultramarines is hard because they always win. I appreciate the thought. 466 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:32,000 You like? 467 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:38,000 Hal had a good round 2, but yeah, it's a tough fight. 468 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:46,000 Also, the Thousand Sons are going to be one of the antagonists in the new Space Marine game, which means they are going to lose again. 469 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,000 So that doesn't help my decision. 470 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:55,000 Also, Hal did commit a lot of self-immolation in this debate. 471 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,000 There was a masochistic streak in his argument. 472 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:02,000 You might as well acknowledge it so it can't be used against you. 473 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:07,000 I mean, I respect that, but the Zangor, you loop too far around with that. 474 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,000 I love a good Zangor. 475 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,000 I'm going to put this man in prison. 476 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:19,000 You can have your Phobos armor. I'll have my Zangors and my Disks, okay? 477 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:23,000 How got like 40% of the vote though? That's pretty good. 478 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:28,000 I was going to say the audience has spoken 60% Ultramarines, 30% Mimicons, and 30% Thousand Sons. 479 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,000 Where did that other 1% go? 480 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:38,000 I mean, if you think about it, that is 99%, so hell, maybe my victory is Zinj's plot all along. 481 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,000 For real, for real. 482 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:47,000 Yeah, it's hard to defeat the power of Matt Ward. 483 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,000 Eli, what did you pick then? 484 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:53,000 The Ultramarines. I'm sorry. 485 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,000 I didn't think I could win this. 486 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,000 I don't think you can win just because they re-read. 487 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:06,000 Poor Chaos in Warhammer is basically treated as a, hey, we need an obstacle. 488 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:10,000 We need a hurdle. Quickly shove a Chaos Legion in there. 489 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:14,000 What does this Ludie McShootie think for the $2? I don't know what this means. 490 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:19,000 I hear that chat, how like a good goat kind of cringe. Like he likes a good goat? 491 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,000 I appreciate the don't know, but I also appreciate the don't agree. 492 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:28,000 Like he likes to eat goat? Oh, the Zangor, okay. 493 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,000 What do you mean? They are cool. They are useless, but they are cool. 494 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,000 They're cool, and they just sing one, maybe. 495 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,000 That's kind of cool. Why are you here? 496 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:48,000 I made a banner for this. For example, with that said, so that was an Ultramarines victory. 497 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:53,000 I've made a special banner. Space Caesar salad. 498 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:57,000 That was our first versus match on live. 499 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:01,000 It was nice to have you all watching along with us and letting us know what you think. 500 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:06,000 It's also nice having the aspect of with the voting at the end, seeing what the audience thinks. 501 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,000 That's quite nice. And I had fun. 502 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,000 But that said, I want to thank Eli for helping judge this one. 503 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,000 And Hal, any closing thoughts from you? 504 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:21,000 Well, firstly, let us know if we missed any good points. 505 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:27,000 My closing thoughts are I didn't think I was going to win this because there's too many thousand suns out. 506 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:34,000 I do think they are more like I like the Ultramarines, but I think most people like them. 507 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,000 I don't think anyone love like no one goes like I love the Ultramarines. 508 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:46,000 I think you can really love the thousand suns for again, like model range, just generally like they are parts of good storytelling. 509 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,000 And I generally like generally feel quite sympathetic. 510 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,000 They have like a deep air of tragedy about them. 511 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:56,000 And again, like, you know, their greatest strength is they are interesting. 512 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,000 And you generally like most people go like, yeah, poor thousand suns. 513 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:04,000 They always they always they are the underdogs in every story that they're in. 514 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:08,000 But I do hate how they get used as like fodder and a lot of other stories. 515 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,000 There's not many of them. 516 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,000 Seegers sparingly, there are thousands of suns. 517 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:20,000 There's one guy who's literally just like a glittering peacock of colors in one book and he like sees future possible timelines. 518 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,000 He travels time towards the future. It's weird. 519 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:28,000 There's weird stuff in it. And we like that because it's not the usual mundane history story. 520 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,000 We all forbid Collins gagging for another space marine. 521 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:38,000 We look about an adventure where they eventually win. 522 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,000 More. 523 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:44,000 Colin, have you got any closing thoughts other than there needs to be more space marine? 524 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,000 More space marine. 525 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaking of missing stuff, I realize I forgot the most important ultramarine of Malam Kaido. 526 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,000 Could have single handedly won me this argument. 527 00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:01,440 He's the dude from Bolt Gunn who swings Chaos Filth and then is cool. 528 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:02,440 Respectable. 529 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,200 He's not a deep character, but by God is he fun to watch. 530 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:11,560 I'll finish what Captain Tidus started. 531 00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:13,360 It was a good debate though. 532 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,800 God, I wish you had an uphill battle there. 533 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:22,200 Couple more donations for you, do you want to read these out? 534 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:26,800 Yeah, Screw Mayoness's sons deserve better than dust. 535 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,840 Thank you Caleb Coles for $2, you're right. 536 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:34,440 Then we got Danger Tickle, thank you for the 50 sec. 537 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:41,600 My dusty boys lost a rigged contest, gonna drown my sorrows with a Perspirance Red, 50-50 538 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,240 vodka and nose plunger to wallow. 539 00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:46,240 Thank you for the donation. 540 00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:47,240 Wow. 541 00:46:47,240 --> 00:46:48,240 Sorry, it was a pretty rigged contest. 542 00:46:48,240 --> 00:46:49,240 It was tough. 543 00:46:49,240 --> 00:46:50,240 Yeah. 544 00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:57,040 If it was like, Stars and Sons versus like, Iron Hands, man. 545 00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,880 Anyone versus Iron Hands bro, come on. 546 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:01,880 Who's more irrelevant. 547 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,760 I think I might take my chances with the Yanari versus the Iron Hands. 548 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:07,760 Yeah. 549 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:14,480 At least for the Iron Hands, you're not like, oh I can't wait to be the bullet sponges for 550 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:16,280 the new video game where we're the anime. 551 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:17,280 Yay! 552 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,760 If you guys have any suggestions as well versus you'd like to see upcoming in the future, 553 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:26,360 obviously it'd be Andy and Eli will probably be dabbing into the next lineup. 554 00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,280 So if anything you want to see particularly, so give us suggestions, we love it. 555 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,280 I guess, yeah, I tried boys, I tried. 556 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:34,280 So right. 557 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:39,720 Andy knows all about Tao now, so give him a Tao topic to talk about. 558 00:47:39,720 --> 00:47:40,720 Yeah. 559 00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:42,920 I've finished all my Tao stuff. 560 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,000 I only need a trim for three days. 561 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,280 I certainly finished my four seasons. 562 00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:54,120 Shout out to Quantum Cthulhu for the words, pregnant Magnus. 563 00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,200 I had to read that, you all had to hear it. 564 00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:57,200 There it is. 565 00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:58,200 I don't think so. 566 00:47:58,200 --> 00:47:59,200 Thank you guys so much. 567 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:00,200 Oh man. 568 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:01,200 We tried. 569 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:02,200 Bye everyone. 570 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:03,200 Bye everyone. 571 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:04,200 We'll see you guys later. 572 00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:05,200 Bye. 573 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:31,840 Bye.