Music
Hello everyone, it's LoreCrimes. We're back B2Gamers.
We're doing an interesting one. Today's our first ever versus on live format so it should be a bit of fun.
We get you guys telling us who you think is doing bad takes during the debate which will be quite fun to see.
Philip, I appreciate the energy but this is the one day I've not made my bed in recent memory.
I don't want to upset the dog.
He's off his game because he knows he's not going to win.
I know this is purely for the dog. Look at her.
Don't do that on the street.
Big welcome everybody. This is LoreCrimes.
We are going to talk about, well, today is a versus topic so we're just going to basically hit two things against each other and we have our glorious judges today, which will be Eli and Andy.
As a remembrance, they're the dark gods who will therefore judge how well us lore to YouTubers can represent each argument.
There'll be three rounds. If you have more time that you didn't use up, you can give it back.
Although there's always extra time for insults.
They are representing 1000 sons, baby. 1000 sons.
All is dust. All is dust. Praise be.
Colin, who are you defending?
The ultramarines, baby. The greatest of them all.
Oh, geez.
I'm going to throw up in my mouth.
It actually works out quite well as well. We're like blue team, red team, like literally the red team, literally the blue team.
I will be Matt Ward's strongest soldier today.
Shout out to all his dust boys. I need your support.
Well, with the three rounds, we will try and represent. It's not necessarily a contest of we just slap them on the battlefield and then which one comes out victorious.
This is an all round thing. Any argument is a dub. This is like Age of Empires. You can build the wonder.
You know, you get 1000 years of victory.
So we will probably go, I'll just throw a new thing for people listening.
We will be doing donations at a little bit of an interval just to get the content push in. So we, you know, we very much appreciate you guys so much, but we will reading at certain points, but we will be read out and we will react to it and we will cry at the insults.
We appreciate that though. Andy, do you have the timer ready?
I do, but my mask doesn't allow me to unlock my phone quickly. So let's get.
There we go. Yeah, it goes. Who are you imposter?
There we go. So I'm ready when you guys are and I believe Hal, you're starting on.
I am first I will try my best boys in the chat. Please pump me up. I need to.
Oh, spill spill some spill some dust on my boys.
Okay. All right. If you're ready then in on the count of three, your time starts. So your time starts in three, two, one, go.
Welcome fellow degenerates. Today we're talking about the 15th Legion, although it's also a bit of 40 K as well.
Thousand sons is clearly slightly better than my opponent. I won't trash them just yet though, but I want to mention with starting out on how they look. First of all, thousand sons.
They are quite clearly intrinsically tied to ancient mythology in their ancient Egyptian sort of twist, which is can be said is a bit better than my other boy who is a basically a Greco Roman another, you know, copy. So too many of them. So as a unique design to the Legion, the Legion itself.
Its history was, it was a legion that was almost destroyed but brought back from the brink from a thousand Marines to perhaps probably the strongest fighting force the Imperium had during the Great Crusade.
But I'll start off with their humble beginnings on the world of Prospero. There is some link to terror, but Prospero themselves is the foundation. It is a jewel of the world was a jewel of the Imperium.
RIP. Prospero itself is like a massive like planet sized city like world that was filled with enormous structures that had like pyramids filled with libraries, knowledge, artifacts that humanity itself, or as the thousand sons about the Great Crusade did, they collected
so many things to build that golden age of mankind that would eventually come after the Great Crusade. And it's kind of like, it's the interesting spice to what is the bland, you know, white bread that is McCragg so I appreciate that.
The Legion itself is super interesting because they contain like many different cults even from the 30k Legion to the 40k one. I had to have to go through them because they are like pretty cool and it shows the specialization of each force rather than just one big uniform block of blue boys.
The cult of the Pyre, which is basically, they are the pyrotechnic ridiculous boys who are able to generate control shields. They are super cool. They are immune to fire. Just, it is stated like they are immune to fire. That's basically it.
There is the Pavoni, they were able to use like psychically generated power to manipulate body chemistry. There's instances in the war, in the law where someone used it to basically transform Lucis the Eternal to look exactly like Fulgrim, and that guy was, oh he did die after but it's okay he wasn't from that.
The Atheneans who are my favorite, they are basically telepaths so anyone who is facing them in combat, they can really read your next moves, it's pretty easy. How much time do I have Annie, just wondering. The cult of the Raptora, oh I'm good I'm good. The cult of the Raptora, they telekinesis groups who they train by using their powers and they basically like float up.
They are essentially like, I do describe them as like a Dungeons and Dragons team at all times and I'll go into a bit more of that because they are super cool in combat.
A couple of the other cults, again there's just too many to list, but some of the more faulty ones, a cult of change, duplicity, manipulation, mutation, prophecy, scheming and time. I mean what can the Thousand Sons not do?
In combat they were pretty much unrivaled compared to all other legions. They essentially as I said earlier, they are like a D&D party. In one kill team of the Thousand Sons which has all these different cultists and all these different, sorry all these different cults within them, they could basically do any job and they were worth 10 times the number of Astartes that were in other legions.
Big bonus, the Thousand Sons killed lots of space wolves, boys. They deserved it, I'm gonna say. The space wolves fired first, you know what I mean? Fun fact, space wolves run at people with no helmets, we guys love that stuff.
But they essentially, it took the entire legion of the space wolves, the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence just to fight on equal strength against an ambush Thousand Sons. That should show you the level of like strength they actually brought to the table.
But something a bit more outside of combat, they were philosophers. They were men of great knowledge, much as like the Ultramanians were great administrators. There's always people to rule things but there are people to guide humanity in, you know, throughout the Great Crusade to be better than just soldiers and not just something like the worldy just between both despise.
So the post rubric of Ahriman, the Thousand Sons sorcerers, were super empowered by the ritual to the point that, as it states in the lore, basically each Thousand Sons sorcerer is the equivalent of like a full squad of Grey Knights.
So I don't know what Ultramanians can really do against that. The Thousand Sons, basically knowledge to them is knowledge. Let's not be ignorant like this rotting Imperium.
They, you know, knowledge of it came from the Eldar, the Black Library, it has to be raided. My boys, when boys see the Black Library, they've got to go.
The Necrons, all knowledge doesn't matter. They have access to things like, you know, screams, voorteched beasts, pink holes.
Three, two, one, and that's your time.
And they just went on a rampage at the end of it. And all the people are stuck.
You had me stuck in the giggle loop, bro.
I was trying not to laugh for half of Hal's freaking speech.
Every time I looked at Carla's camera, I had to say, it came back.
Carla was saying stuff about me, so I was trying not to laugh. And then you had Carla in the giggle loop, you're trying not to laugh, and then you think about that, then you want to laugh some more.
I didn't see Colin like, throwing her in the mouth, just covering his mouth.
I have cool stuff. Colin, are you ready?
I am. I, once, give me just a minute maybe.
I'm sabotaging myself is what I'm doing.
I can't wait for you to ruin yourself.
That's all right. All right, I'm ready. I'm ready to go.
On the count of three, okay. Three, two, one, your time starts now.
Now I'm so confident in the Blue Boy Ares boys that I'm not, we're going to hold off on some criticisms till later.
Next round, we're just going to start, you know, the Horus Heresy. What legion had the most commendations, awards, compliances out of all of them?
Oh, that'd be the Ultramarines. No, yes. Yeah, it was it was Gilliman and the Blueberries.
It was a combined diplomatic and military. It was him. Gilliman was the star baby boy. He was the best.
And how did they do that? Because Gilliman, in spite of, you know, fighting against the knowledge Primarch, isn't a fool, unlike the knowledge Primarch.
Gilliman knows that, well, you need to be effective in not just, you know, war, not just peace, not just knowledge, not just all these things.
They got to do everything. If you want to run an empire, you have to be smart with it.
You can't, you know, you need to take care of the planet, you need to take care of your troops, which is why it's very underrated with Gilliman and the Ultramarines.
And you're good at logistics. You go, oh, it's no fun. I can blow up a planet with my mind or I can rip people apart with my pinky finger like some of the other Primarchs.
And then you're Gilliman. You go, yeah, I set up a mini empire in five minutes while none of you were looking and none of you were ever going to take this planet because it's now a fortress.
But beyond that, you know, even within that, Rogadorn can be better than that.
So how about I'll even discuss some ultramarine losses because their losses are the sort of thing that by themselves, I fully believe, make them look good.
Calth, an act of self-defense. The funny thing about Calth is that imagine literally any of the other legions going through that.
There'd be no more legion. The ultramarines lost 120,000 Marines and were like, all right, that's it, Lorgar, we're done playing around.
Now we're actually going to get serious and just come after you.
And with like a third or a very big portion of the legion just dead now, I think it was a they still killed like a third of all world wordbearers present.
Something like that. I remember seeing either way.
It was a lot for a complete ambush where they were completely intermingled and backfooted and everything went wrong.
They got a one to three kill ratio, which given the circumstances, pretty great.
And it just didn't matter because after losing hundreds of thousands of Marines, they were like, you know, we're just we're going to go to Terra now.
Oh, we're also going to fight off a massive traitor onslaught so Sanguineous can get there first because he says he's got to get there first.
You know, they they know they know to listen to other people when they've got some important say.
So they listen to Sanguineous, got him on the way.
And then they went right there themselves, ready to win to the point that Horace in part was hurrying his duel against the emperor because he knew the blueberries were on their way and it wasn't going to look good.
But that's just the heresy.
I don't know how I can possibly recount 10,000 years of Matt Ward glory, but I will try in these two minutes because for one, this might not be the most impressive, but there's a piece of art that makes it in context very great.
Marnius Calgar beat an avatar of Cain to death.
I'm so confident in my victory here.
I'm banking on that as part of it.
Now you might think, oh, God, everyone beats an avatar of Cain to death.
There's a lovely piece of Eldar art where Eldrad and Magnus are 1v1ing and it's pretty close.
Like, you know, Magnus isn't winning and then Cain is just lumbering on up.
If the Thousand Sons were really that great, that elder army would be gone because against the ultramarines, that elder army was destroyed.
There's, of course, the battle of Macrag against the Tyranids.
They beat two high fleets pretty much.
They beat them on the ground.
Marnius Calgar got up in the Navy and blew it away.
The second Tyranic War, another resounding ultramarine dub.
There was Cato Sicarius, both embodying the Imperium.
I will not do diplomacy with this Tao.
There's him embodying the ultramarine spirit.
He was, you know, for all the crap we like to give him.
He is a very noble, heroic little ultramarine.
Uriel Ventress, the Demarque Laba just ruining Hanzo and all those lovely things.
These are ultramarine characters doing it.
Legion, you cannot, you can get the Legion wrong once and I'll give it, I'll give them credit.
I'm sure the Thousand Sons could get them once and then the ultramarines would go, oh, so this is how they're going to fight.
Goodbye Thousand Sons victory.
Those are pretty much Corvus' Corax's own words in his battle against Giliman.
Just because the Thousand Sons are wizards, great.
There's plenty of things in 40k that can beat wizards and the ultramarines have easy access to all of them,
especially because in the 41st, 42nd millennium, Giliman's back leading the Imperium.
Anything the ultramarines need to win, they will be provided because they have an empire, they have an empire within an empire.
They have every single system imaginable to fight off these marines, these chaos marines,
who are stuck on their little sad crybaby world and can't do anything about it because Giliman is great.
And the marines are great.
That's your time, that's your time.
Okay, so arousing first efforts.
Cater to Kari's diplomacy.
Yeah.
Before me and Eli cast judgment on the first part, we're going to read through the donations we've had so far.
So we had one from Paralloy's, Paralloy's, Paralloy's Tortoise, me and the homies snorting that Magnus Deluxe psychic booger sugar.
Thank you for the five.
We got one from Danger Tickle. Great name.
Thousand Suns trim painting hurts so much, but I do it for my sweet Magni magic.
And we also had one from Joseph Pollard saying my vote is for the ultramarine not because I like them, but for the fact I hate the Thousand Suns more.
I'll shoot myself in the foot.
This is an argument based round. Listen to Hal's argument.
I will win in the field of debate.
And we also got one from just now from Elliot Hortz.
What are we going to get a watch along for Colin's favorite anime Sword Art Online.
Vote against Hal for starting that I like that shit anime.
Everyone loves it. I've made more jokes.
Andy, Eli, what did you think of our representation so far?
How did we cook?
You could have pretty.
It's not often that I see Colin care about something or try.
Dead soldiers eyes.
Limited supply of energy. I got to spend it with somebody.
Somebody in the chat said, bro betrayed Rose betraying Eldar bro is actually trying to win.
I can respect that.
I must say that was quite a accolades heavy first round.
This Legion did this.
I quite liked how Colin said this is paraphrasing but reminded me of that thing from the Justice League movie.
What's your superpower?
I'm rich. We just got so much stuff.
And that was basically the argument. Yeah, they just got like a bajillion people but not in a world eaters way where they just throw them into the meat grinder.
Eli, are you leaning either way so far?
I will acknowledge pretty hard to beat the ultramarines. I'm not going to lie.
Yeah, I must say.
Pitting logistics nerds versus magic nerds. Magic is quite nice but then like accountancy is also quite like, oh, I get what tax break relief.
But there's just too many W's.
They have a lot of characters as well but I'm sure there'll be some interesting turn of events in the in the second part.
So this is a three minute section.
Last nation by commanders mighty schlong of sickness, best name ever.
I feel like comparing Primark alone would decide this. This is true. This is true.
H. Milov said Colin wins in Quidditch but Hal gets the snitch. Thank you for the.
I'm ready. So yes, three minutes. So are you ready? How are we going to?
Yes, this is true. We're going to turn around to a little bit. I still have some things.
Save save some for the last minute because we'll need that.
You're the last week. So your time starts on the count of three. So three, two, one and go.
Well, Colin was right. We said earlier, you are you learn a lot from your failures.
So I thought I'd acknowledge the weaknesses of the suns because I might as well get it out of the way.
Point number one, first weakness, Magnus the Red terrible Primark. Honestly, they deserve better.
The thousand suns. Magnus the Red is the biggest nail in their coffin.
And I'm so glad that so much of their story is essentially them almost rebelling against him.
But then, you know, thank you, GW, for the inevitable fate that they had to receive.
Part two weaknesses. Zinch perpetually stuck in its game, basically.
So they kind of are at the whim of a chaos god. That kind of sucks. But aren't we all?
But there is no more flesh change anymore. So that's a big W and they're all stronger.
Weaknesses number three, trim, way too much trim on the models. Just too much trim, unfortunately.
Last weakness, no Genesis chapter. There is no Genesis chapter.
So thousand suns are in short supply. But next is strengths. Strength number one, genuinely really interesting.
The tragedy of their existence makes them, people want to go read their books.
I think a lot of the ultramarine books, they have standout characters in some other books, but standalone ones, like there's a lot of them.
Just the average sorcerer is just way stronger than an ultramarine.
Like just the ultramarine have access to the Imperium, but if it was like the ultramarine chapter of a thousand of them or the Legion, I'm pretty sure we take them.
Benefit, more than one shade of blue. The ultramarines, they only have one shade of blue, but thank God the thousand suns have access to loads of different like cults things.
So you can paint different ways to your models. Point number are the strength.
Really fun on the tabletop is actually really fun to play the thousand suns. There's so many things that you can do with them and their models are just fantastic as a range.
Point strength, zangors. You don't have zangors in all of these stuff.
Last point, kind of, they do hate Magnus, so they kind of get over the fact and the best bit, obviously, is the fall of Prospero.
They actually rebel. They're the only people who give a middle finger to their Primark and say, no, we defy you and we're going to fight for our lives.
And some of the strengths like their characters are generally interesting. I think a lot of ultramarine characters sadly do like I've read some of the Euroventress books.
They're a bit mid, some of them. They are a bit mid. I won't I won't lie, but a lot of the thousand suns book, the characters, particularly the horrors, heresy ones are written with such good interest.
And you actually give a crap about them. My boy, Ariemann, cannot take a W to save his life, but he keeps on going.
He's no Marneus Calgo who gets given his great easy victory.
Because again, if someone becomes like a Mary Sue character or Steve Stu character, you kind of fall out of interest.
I am I'm a guy who likes the underdog and so I pretty much appreciate the thousand suns.
And the last point really is just that, yeah, I was to work the model range, basically. I paint their models. It's difficult, but once it's really done, it's glorious.
Your time's up. Your time's up.
It's a pretty strong opening for Mr. Hal. Not gonna lie.
Yeah.
Oh my god, this is tough.
Off your chest.
All right, Colin, are you ready to do your rebuttal for that second part?
You're on mute.
I am indeed.
Perfect.
Oh hello.
Are you the people?
No.
Yep, she heard barking.
Dog break.
Colin cam.
Dog break.
I did not want to be satanized by an active dog.
It's back there.
There's no way that's a bloodthirster.
What is the big model on your table?
Where?
With wings.
That's Karl Franz.
That one?
Nice. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, cool.
Right.
Let's get going.
Okay, your time starts on the count of three.
So three, two, one, and go.
Well, I'd like to start my second round by thanking Hal for committing argument suicide by somehow trying to portray the Thousand Sons combat patrol box as a positive.
That is a legendary move.
I have the ultramarine one.
All of them.
There's my aunt.
He's got a point.
You look at a combat patrol box, not even that, you look at a space marine box.
Who's on the cover?
Oh, would you look at that?
It's the ultramarines.
But, you know, I will take a page out of your book, I'll discuss some weaknesses.
One is they're very Greco-Roman.
They've got some similar weaknesses to the Romans.
Like I said, you can wrong foot them once.
It'll probably hurt.
The strength is, fun thing about the Romans, they lost a lot of battles.
Pyrrhus Evaperus won his battle.
Hannibal beat the shit out of them left, right, and center.
They won those wars.
And much like their inspiration, ripoff, whatever, the ultramarines, you can lose plenty of fights as the ultramarines.
They have more.
And not in a, you know, like a stereotypical Red Army, throw them into the meat grinder.
No, not one step back.
Every loss they replace is, every loss is spent wisely.
There is not an ounce of waste in the ultramarines.
The Thousand Sons are chaos.
There's, by their very nature, even though they're the Zech Intelligent Legion, ounces of waste, scheming, plotting, backstabbing.
That just happens because it's a chaos legion, which, you know, in a duel, you don't want your second in command stabbing your first in command for no other reason than he'd like to be in first, which does not happen in the ultramarines.
Genesis chapter is genuinely, I know it's silly, but also huge, because again, an ultramarine dies.
He's back immediately.
They got another one.
And the funny thing is, you know, I will maybe in an outright 1v1 battle, just chapter v chapter.
Maybe I'll give that to you.
Maybe the ultramarines would lose.
That doesn't matter, because the ultramarines don't put themselves in that situation.
Let's ignore Gilman and the whole Imperium.
500 worlds of Macrog.
That is 500 worlds of industry, manpower, resources, everything.
Replacement marines constantly.
Ultramarines are churning out marines compared to a lot of other chapters, like clockwork.
Especially compared to the Thousand Sons, who I just hope someone decides to be a wizard and they can give them some cool blue armor, because otherwise they're not making new ones.
Not easily anyways.
It's the ultramarines have every single advantage.
And again, Thousand Sons fight them once.
The ultramarines know their tricks.
They're smart.
They're adaptable.
They might have faltered a bit between Gilman, like his death and his return.
They're back in form.
They were never truly weak and useless, but now they're back on top of their game more than ever before.
And just to top it all off.
Ten seconds.
Blue and gold.
You know what?
I think there's a reason the Thousand Sons changed their color scheme during the heresy in modern days.
They saw the ultramarines and went, we need that.
Oh, wow.
The co-opting colors.
Oh my.
There was one thing I wanted to pull you off on though, Colin. You said there's no backstabbing in the ultramarines.
One word for you.
Leandros.
Shit.
Now, to be fair, that wasn't backstabbing.
That was just incredibly misguided.
Loyalty.
Morality.
I'm not going to say loyalty.
He was trying to be, man, definitively Leandros.
Holy shit.
To give him the slight amount of credit due, he was doing what he thought was best.
He wasn't backstabbing Titus because he wanted to be the guy in charge.
Is there any, do we have any questions that they need us to, from Andy and Eli, that you want us to either rebut or throw?
I mean, I think I've just done that pretty heavy.
Yeah, that's a.
Punch to what it's called.
I handed over to Eli, anything you wanted to mention?
Or review, review how we're doing so far.
That's pretty good. Could the power of Ahriman defeat the power of Cato Secares in 1v1?
I don't know.
The whole point is he's meant to be, he is, he is the underdog Ahriman. He's just not meant to win.
So I generally think they wouldn't let him have it.
Even though Ahriman could invert Cato Secares inside out.
I mean, here's a question. Do you honestly, because you mentioned about like, oh, Uriel Ventress has some mid books, but like.
Can you honestly say you prefer, if you were to get all the Thousand Suns material of lore and all the Ultramarines books, could you honestly say that the Thousand Suns books are better?
Oh, without a doubt, because I know there's only two bad ones. There's Crimson King, Horus, Heresy and the one the more recent Ahriman ones.
Like all the other ones are kind of interesting or they play interesting roles in the plot or they delve into the Thousand Suns like they have Legion culture, all that stuff.
The Ultramarine books I have read, like, you know what I mean, like I feel like with some Uriel Ventress ones, I could miss a book and I wouldn't miss anything, you know what I mean?
You don't like the Demon Choo Choo engine.
Well, no, that's not a miss book, but like, I'm pretty sure at some point, some of the.
Some Ultramarine books are so kind of, they're a bit odd, if you know what I mean, and they definitely were like, Guy goes on an adventure. There is no character change. He does adventure and then that's it.
That's what happens when you got so many books, not all of them can be bangers.
But that moment where Uriel asks to put down the Lord of the Unfleshed or whatever it's called and he's like, does the Emperor love me? He's like, yes, he does.
And I must admit.
And even if it's like kind of generic in like scope, I do find when I whenever I read a Thousand Suns book, it's like, I went into the third numeration, and then I did, I'm just, oh shut up, nerd, just cast a spell.
So I think both have like, flaws, and yeah, the most recent RM and stuff I've been like, I binged all five and I was like, oh, that last one was rough.
It was.
So is it two minutes for the final round? Before we do that though, I'll quickly read out the, we've had two more donations, one from Donkeyman USA, saying the other day I slammed four shots of vodka and made my tech priest verminous.
I made my dominance with five clan rats grafted to it.
And we also have one from Kibanda's Mighty Shlong of Sickness.
I know like, Ultramarines would have more variety by virtue of the fact that they can use any generic Space Marine unit.
I play Ultramarines and Thousand Suns.
Oh, do you want to read this one?
Sure.
I'm going to pull my foreheads open for advertisement yet. I'm going to pull my local hobby shop, that is pretty cool.
Thank you Danger too, cool.
We gotta get that before Bricky does.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Well there isn't in one of the poor hammer ones he's got like on the thumbnail.
But yes, so the final round, are you ready for the vitriol round, Hal?
Ready. It's two minutes, so we'll put up a poll in a bit.
So brace yourselves on the count of three, Hal. You ready?
I'm ready.
All right, three, two, one, let her rip.
I genuinely, as Colin was mentioning earlier, I think the problem with the Ultramarines is that they have to draw so much from the rest of the Imperium that they are like, they are literally the master of none.
So when they fight something like the Thousand Sons, the Ultramarines, just the Ultramarines, are generally just not equipped to fight them and it's pretty much a, I mean I know like the writing for Chief Librarian Togurius is ridiculous but it's still not enough to beat Thousand Sons.
I actually can't knock Gilliman. There is nothing I can say negatively about Gilliman.
The fact is, when Gilliman has returned, the rest of the Legion and the Ultramarines is now like way more uninteresting compared to Gilliman. It is the Gilliman show, unfortunately.
The Homeworld, Macragge, I just generally don't vibe with Macragge as much as something like, you know, Prospero and then like the Magic City of Dust with all kinds of weird stuff happening in there.
Macragge just seems like plain white toast, as I said before.
The Ultramarines, again, as much as they are like cool, when they have Jennings as a chapter, they are just a thousand men.
And Connor's right, they have so much resources but yet it's just going to be a thousand of them. Like if it's with Manowar Manow, they really just do struggle. There's so many Thousand Sons war bands, like different variations and stuff that make them like really cool and legit and they explore things like magic and the Ultramarines are just dude in armor.
You know, how many more space marines can we get? The model range is way better for Thousand Sons in Horus Heresy and 40k. Shout out to Rylinor, my boy. Thank you Thousand Sons for doing Rylinor.
And my last one, I will save this for later. Mr. Ultramarine man himself, Gilliman, he brought Primaris Marines.
It's really his fault that Primaris Marines have been brought to the stage and I really think that, particularly like Eli here, you can very much see like this, this was like a just a curse, you know, shout out to all the first founding things who are now being transformed into, you know, who actually died in the Rubicon project.
Yeah, who died in Rubicon. And also shout out to... Done. That's your time. Oh, and you got to flex with the model. See how gorgeous our models are. See how gorgeous our models are. You don't have this. You have Kalgar.
I mean, really, I've got France. Yeah, Gilliman's somewhere over there. Yeah, we got Gilliman. To be fair, the returned Gilliman slaps, that model slaps. For the audio listings I'm presenting, right, Magnus the Red model on the screen. Yeah.
The one he went, oh, I don't know, I just, I enjoy painting as a hobby. I'm not that good. I will be counting that into my verdicts by the way.
I'm all gonna win now. All right. You're ready for your rebuttal, Colin? You got two minutes? I am. Okay. Brace yourselves, everyone. On the count of three. Three, two, one, go for it.
You know, before the hate spews to warm up, I'll give one last actual argument. You know, the Thousand Suns, all those different varied warbands, legions, crazy how they never work together, have like three and a half planets tops to call their own. 500 worlds. I think I know who's winning that argument.
But beyond that, you know, the funny thing is, it's very funny, the Thousand Suns were defeated by the Space Wolves, because they're the real dogs, because I pull out a vacuum cleaner and they would run away like Athena would. All this dust. Yeah. Okay, you'd lose to a fucking Swiffer. Great. What a legion.
And you know, with the flesh changes gone. Yes, because it melted most of them. That's why the flesh change is gone. And the way they got rid of it melted almost all the rest. They're called the Thousand Suns, because there were 1000 of them left before Magnus saved them.
Which, you know, hey, Gilman didn't need, the Ultramarines didn't need Gilman while they were the war born, they were kicking ass left, right and center and they lost like one major engagement, and then proceeded to keep doing nothing but win after the fact.
Oh, Thousand Suns, they're not even the best goddamn psychers of the galaxy. For one, actual zinch demons are. For two, Eldar's psychic powers don't make you blow up when you use them. Oh, I'm a Thousand Suns wizard, I cast Dune Bolt.
Oh, my hand is now a tentacle and I'm melting from the acid it makes. Oh well you good wizard. Pharaoh Tigerius talked to the hive mind and was like, I'm good, I'm good. If Ahriman did that he probably would like combust.
Speaking of Ahriman, oh, the haunted Thousand Suns character, you're damn right he's an underdog. He didn't just horribly lose to Eldar, he lost to the Yunari. The Yunari.
I'm the Eldar man. You know it's over for you. You have no credibility left. I don't care what you've done before that. You lost to the Yunari. It's so over for you.
So y'all, what are the rest of the Thousand Suns doing? They've got a finger up in one hole and hoping that they can pull it out and do it themselves.
Oh, that was fun. Wow. That was a... That was a heck of a blow. I thought mentioning Leandros was low and it's like the Yunari.
It is really funny though in the book where it's all like, she's like, oh, Ahriman you're trying to like resurrect these guys. Or like this. He's like, ah, dead. Trolled.
My boy is abused because he cannot, he literally is not allowed to win.
Wow. Well, not being funny, it was a daunting prospect to... I think the main thing that the Thousand Suns have is Magnus.
He's insane. He's literally insane. Like he just sits and doesn't move.
I'm a bit deluded. But before we cast our verdicts, I'm going to read out the next ones. I've been reading a lot. So how about Eli? Do you want to read out these ones for me?
Yeah, sure. Let me go up here.
Yeah, incoming backup, Boingobb's strongest soldier. Only way to decide this is who is more likely to gain Boingobb's favor. As his high priest, I could officiate such an important discussion, but it is up to you to decide. Thank you for the 30 shekels, sir.
And then we have Stephen Cooper. Thank you for the $10. Inside of you there are two space marines. One says Magnus did nothing wrong. The other says Prospero was a good start. I like this comment.
Prospero was a good start.
I think that was actually my first book on the Horus Heiress. I did it in a weird order. That was my entry level getting into Horus Heiress.
It was also my first book, weirdly enough.
I think I read a Fulgrim. That's hard to remember.
When Iman Rus broke Magnus' back, I cried tears of joy.
I felt that. My poor T-Sons are like, you know, they're in a horrible relationship where they just can't get away.
But thank God they are the shining light that keeps me going.
Yeah. Right. So, moment of truth.
Eli, who has your votes? I was going to ask if there are any final questions. Oh yeah, final questions.
That's a good point. I forgot what I wanted to say.
I'll go for the low hanging fruit. Who would win in a fight? Iman or Tigurius?
I mean, Iman just, I just don't think he should win it.
Because I know he's overpowered. He would, but I don't want him to.
Hal, you're defending the Fowls and Sons here.
Because if they, Iman could just easily kill him. But I don't know if GW would ever let that happen.
Just how they like, like Eisenhorn is never allowed to be happy for a single moment.
Just how like the Ynari are never meant to get any new lore. Like it's just a constant thing written in stone.
And the Ultramarines will inevitably always win.
And then you're like, when you see an Ultramarine in a story, do you ever think they'll lose?
Do you ever wonder if they'll actually win? Because you're the greatest of them all.
Nails of victory.
I would say it's boring. Like that's the greatest crime of all.
I mean, to be fair, they do go, they do sometimes not have a good, I mean, Kalgar lost all of his limbs in one fight.
That would still be that stupid swarm.
He was the knight and Monty Python going, oh, bite your legs off, you know.
There used to be a first company.
Yeah.
When I read A Thousand Sons book, I know there's a possibility either the character will come out victorious or lose in the end, like, or be a pyrrhic victory.
The Ultras won, I already know the ending.
Yeah, but then again, there's five Armin, and you can always be like, oh, let me guess, Armin tries to cure the flesh change and he fails five times in a row.
Once he did one to my accident.
In that case, it's Armin will try to reverse the rubric.
Well, it's not just, there is more than Armin, of course.
It's under Kaon, obviously, Mr. you know, battled, you know, resurrected Horus and all that stuff, won the Black Legion.
They are more than just Armin.
I forgot he was there and it wasn't just Avedon, to be honest.
Yeah.
But that's kind of a testament, though, is like, who's the other cool character from A Thousand Sons?
Oh, A Thousand Sons defector, like, hmm, I don't know.
I do like Kaon.
Any questions from you, Eli?
I don't think so.
I think I forgot what I was going to say.
So, amazing.
If I can answer that question, I'm not going to commit argument, you know, self in a way.
Vigourious is winning.
Yeah.
Yeah, but I wasn't bored watching it.
I wasn't bored watching it because it was damn spectacular.
Hey, Colin, for such an Ultramarine lover, how many Horus, Heresy, Ultramarine novels have you read?
Don't worry about it.
Cheese.
Oh, no, I counter.
Colin, how many Thousand Sons Horus, Heresy books have you read?
Same amount as the Ultramarines, maybe.
I've read them.
Yeah.
By the way, we got some more donations from H. Mihailov.
Can Vigourious threaten you with testicular torsion?
Yes, every cycle can do that.
That's not a Space Marine Psycho.
I'm just nerd, Tarek.
I'll read this.
How looking like human Mr. Rapper.
The guy from Arthur, I just looked it up.
Yeah.
The principal from Arthur.
Or whatever he is.
Oh my gosh.
And the kids yearn for Boingob lore, fellas, especially for the reading of the epic of Boingob.
I'm looking at you, Andy.
Don't fuck us out of content.
I'll try not to.
We can read the three sentences of his lore.
Yes.
You guys are writing your final decision.
Honestly, I think...
The only thing is, it does feel like punching down a little bit, but I've got to go with the Ultramarines, even though they have a Leandros, which I'm not going to forgive.
That was a big...
And if Space Marine 2 doesn't have a training room where you can do target practice on cardboard cutouts of Leandros, it's going down in my estimation as well.
But I think I'm going to have to give it to Ultramarines.
If it has modding capacity, I'm sure someone will put that in.
It's the versus mode where it's 12 people, 6v6, all ganging up on Leandros, just gutting him over and over again.
Whoever does more damage wins.
Yeah.
I understand. It's hard because we were... Yeah, it's Ultramarines is hard because they always win. I appreciate the thought.
You like?
Hal had a good round 2, but yeah, it's a tough fight.
Also, the Thousand Sons are going to be one of the antagonists in the new Space Marine game, which means they are going to lose again.
So that doesn't help my decision.
Also, Hal did commit a lot of self-immolation in this debate.
There was a masochistic streak in his argument.
You might as well acknowledge it so it can't be used against you.
I mean, I respect that, but the Zangor, you loop too far around with that.
I love a good Zangor.
I'm going to put this man in prison.
You can have your Phobos armor. I'll have my Zangors and my Disks, okay?
How got like 40% of the vote though? That's pretty good.
I was going to say the audience has spoken 60% Ultramarines, 30% Mimicons, and 30% Thousand Sons.
Where did that other 1% go?
I mean, if you think about it, that is 99%, so hell, maybe my victory is Zinj's plot all along.
For real, for real.
Yeah, it's hard to defeat the power of Matt Ward.
Eli, what did you pick then?
The Ultramarines. I'm sorry.
I didn't think I could win this.
I don't think you can win just because they re-read.
Poor Chaos in Warhammer is basically treated as a, hey, we need an obstacle.
We need a hurdle. Quickly shove a Chaos Legion in there.
What does this Ludie McShootie think for the $2? I don't know what this means.
I hear that chat, how like a good goat kind of cringe. Like he likes a good goat?
I appreciate the don't know, but I also appreciate the don't agree.
Like he likes to eat goat? Oh, the Zangor, okay.
What do you mean? They are cool. They are useless, but they are cool.
They're cool, and they just sing one, maybe.
That's kind of cool. Why are you here?
I made a banner for this. For example, with that said, so that was an Ultramarines victory.
I've made a special banner. Space Caesar salad.
That was our first versus match on live.
It was nice to have you all watching along with us and letting us know what you think.
It's also nice having the aspect of with the voting at the end, seeing what the audience thinks.
That's quite nice. And I had fun.
But that said, I want to thank Eli for helping judge this one.
And Hal, any closing thoughts from you?
Well, firstly, let us know if we missed any good points.
My closing thoughts are I didn't think I was going to win this because there's too many thousand suns out.
I do think they are more like I like the Ultramarines, but I think most people like them.
I don't think anyone love like no one goes like I love the Ultramarines.
I think you can really love the thousand suns for again, like model range, just generally like they are parts of good storytelling.
And I generally like generally feel quite sympathetic.
They have like a deep air of tragedy about them.
And again, like, you know, their greatest strength is they are interesting.
And you generally like most people go like, yeah, poor thousand suns.
They always they always they are the underdogs in every story that they're in.
But I do hate how they get used as like fodder and a lot of other stories.
There's not many of them.
Seegers sparingly, there are thousands of suns.
There's one guy who's literally just like a glittering peacock of colors in one book and he like sees future possible timelines.
He travels time towards the future. It's weird.
There's weird stuff in it. And we like that because it's not the usual mundane history story.
We all forbid Collins gagging for another space marine.
We look about an adventure where they eventually win.
More.
Colin, have you got any closing thoughts other than there needs to be more space marine?
More space marine.
Speaking of missing stuff, I realize I forgot the most important ultramarine of Malam Kaido.
Could have single handedly won me this argument.
He's the dude from Bolt Gunn who swings Chaos Filth and then is cool.
Respectable.
He's not a deep character, but by God is he fun to watch.
I'll finish what Captain Tidus started.
It was a good debate though.
God, I wish you had an uphill battle there.
Couple more donations for you, do you want to read these out?
Yeah, Screw Mayoness's sons deserve better than dust.
Thank you Caleb Coles for $2, you're right.
Then we got Danger Tickle, thank you for the 50 sec.
My dusty boys lost a rigged contest, gonna drown my sorrows with a Perspirance Red, 50-50
vodka and nose plunger to wallow.
Thank you for the donation.
Wow.
Sorry, it was a pretty rigged contest.
It was tough.
Yeah.
If it was like, Stars and Sons versus like, Iron Hands, man.
Anyone versus Iron Hands bro, come on.
Who's more irrelevant.
I think I might take my chances with the Yanari versus the Iron Hands.
Yeah.
At least for the Iron Hands, you're not like, oh I can't wait to be the bullet sponges for
the new video game where we're the anime.
Yay!
If you guys have any suggestions as well versus you'd like to see upcoming in the future,
obviously it'd be Andy and Eli will probably be dabbing into the next lineup.
So if anything you want to see particularly, so give us suggestions, we love it.
I guess, yeah, I tried boys, I tried.
So right.
Andy knows all about Tao now, so give him a Tao topic to talk about.
Yeah.
I've finished all my Tao stuff.
I only need a trim for three days.
I certainly finished my four seasons.
Shout out to Quantum Cthulhu for the words, pregnant Magnus.
I had to read that, you all had to hear it.
There it is.
I don't think so.
Thank you guys so much.
Oh man.
We tried.
Bye everyone.
We'll see you guys later.
Bye.