We're alive! Yay! We're alive! Hello everyone! Until we see it! Until we see it! It's alive!
It lives! Praise the Omnissiah! Yay! Hi everyone! We've also got a donation card base. I'm
stuck watching in there. Yes it is. Thank you. We live! We lubricated the machines for a
stream bro. It's come up! Yay! We are alive! Hello everyone! Hello everyone! We've got
a tier list stream today. We've got a special guest. Andy! Andy got a closed stream bro
here and everything we said five seconds ago. What? It's echoing really bad. Oh wait a minute.
Oh I had the stream open. I'm sorry. It's me. I don't have the stream open. What are you
talking about? I'm trolling. We have a wonderful guest everyone. It's Sandman of Terror. Hello
Ed! Thanks for joining us again. Thanks for having me. Apparently I broke everything last
time just by my presence. So very grateful to the Omnissiah not to do that again. I like
to think of it as a god refusing to allow me to escape the horrors heresy. Colin was so
looking forward not to having to read more about space marines. We're this close to greatness.
This close. We do have another tier list at the end but today is a special occasion because
we're going to torture Colin and a little bit of Eli with a third single. We're rating
every single horrors heresy book possibly even Siege of Terror as well. There is a special
category called Hail Boingob. Ed do you know what Boingob is? I don't know if we mentioned
that. I don't know what that is. Colin can you please explain the story? He is the father
of squigs in Age of Sigmar and he died when he tried to eat the sun. That's Boingob. He
got rotisserie chicken. Why are we not talking about that? We're big fans. Honestly the first
time we heard about lore we all wept like openly because it was so funny. We were very
happy to know about this. This is a little bit more serious. Colin feast your eyes on
this. I see. This is what you have to read. I did actually bring questions because I know
that I can provide quite literally nothing else otherwise. I can bring them at the end
or the beginning. We should have called his opinion first. I should have said that. That's
infinitely more clever than what I said. I felt like I needed to bring literally anything
to the table. Some general questions about the series for people who are me. We'll probably
get straight into it though. We'll start from the beginning. Before we start as well just
chat in general. If any of us sound a bit quiet or a bit too loud please let us know
because there's a lot of us in the stream. We also got a little donation from Dante.
Bless you Dante. Thank you. From a currency that I don't remember where it's from. Clip.
2500 clp. Thank you. There's more currency than sterling pound and that's already messed
with my brain. That offends Hal at a level. Horus Rising. It's the first one. I think
that's pretty high. I love Horus Rising. I was there the day Horus slew the Emperor bro.
It's the best opening to any book ever. I was there the day Horus shat himself. It's
the best joke we've ever heard. It's the best joke we've ever heard. People are listening
a briefing but Horus Rising is essentially just the straight up introduction of Horus
Lu-Pakal. Loads of love characters like Garvia Loken. Unfortunately Erebus is in it. Erebus
is just like a brief summary of the kind of what happens in the book. People are listening
like I have no idea why they rate that book so high. The initial part where the great
joke where Garvia Loken is the day Horus re-embr- oh sorry Donkeyman USA's a donation. A great
elbow to the face for Elysius as well. It wasn't a fair fight. But also I think one
of my favourite things about Horus Rising is that it's your introduction to the heresy
in terms of like this is where we're going to get a bit more serious guys. We've had
enough Jokey 40k for the last 10 years. This is serious. Anyway so the planet's called
murder and we're wearing these mecha arachnids and you're like okay cool super serious Dan.
I like it. It has got a real designation but that's just what they call it. It literally
is Star Troopers isn't it? Yeah kind of is. In the middle of the book. They literally
kind of go way too close to it and I wondered if Dan and Avnett went yeah let's do it go
on. Whatever. How did you read out Donkeyman's donation? Oh I didn't get to it. He says Horus
Rising was good but it was a weird choice to start it with Loken saying how he was the
day Horus shattered himself. I don't want to hear this anymore. It's not true. All lies.
Horus can't even fit into like the portal loop. So you miss the sheep it's built in
the armor. It's his food. Practical another donation five bucks thank you brother. He
says much love from Virginia. Hope you all have a good day and evening keep up the great
work thank you brother. Another one by RB20 going I guess Ruby in a way. Soul drinkers
for the best Lois chapter. They're not in the Horus Heresy. They're so cool though oh
my gosh. Yeah how the heck did they get two omnibuses? That's crazy. Awesome. I've only
read like three chapters of the first book because I have to get through the Necron stuff
first but they're really cool and they're purple. They are very purple. It's just weird
to see like an obscure successor chapter get more than a short. To be fair in their defense
they are second founding chapter. They are the forgotten second founding chapter of the
Imperial Fists. Black Templars have their own freaking army. Soul drinkers can get some
blood. And they got a spider man but more a literal spider man. All the Illuminor Ceres
plus Space Marine chapter master conversions that people made back in the day. Black Templars
get a whole army and release and Yunari can't even get a plot movie. Neither can any of
the Chaos Warbands to be fair. Horus Rising does have a cool part where some of the, what's
it, Torgaddon who's one of the sons of Horus who's a very beloved character. Have you heard
the one about the bear? Yeah he's quite a jokester. I miss him. He goes straight on
to the Emperor's children, sort of Eidolon who's a cuck and he just tells him you are
useless, I hate you, your breath smells, you're mum and this leaves it in that. And your mother
smells of elderberries. There's also the events, there's something people have maybe kind of
heard of but don't know, it was like in this book it's the Interrex which is like, oh this
is like Human Society book, kind of cool, they integrate with aliens and stuff and they
have bows. They just straight up have bows and they use bows. They're playing too much
destiny. And the like Abaddon and Loki and all the other stars go that's a bit cringe
isn't it, but then they get hit by one of those and they go like oh okay I see how it
is. Oh I died. I also want to mention the first comment after going live was a Colin
about his bed comment. Yeah Colin has in fact made his bed. Yeah but it was apparently made
very poorly lol that was a quick fix says Cree Guardsman. We can't talk about my bed
for one episode. The bed's visible. This book is really enjoyable though for anyone who
kind of gets into Warhammer and you don't really read books, this is like the best one
to get started on. Great book. Honestly I put it so much higher up the rankings of where
to start reading Warhammer 40k than I think most people. I think the most intimidating
thing about it is the fact that it's part of a 64 book series but Gawnt's Ghost and
Kyphus Kane are also not short so it comes and goes and it's where I started and I now
do this so I can't not recommend it as a first novel. It wasn't where I started but it wasn't
far off. Yeah me too. I think I started with Fulgrim I think that was my first really my
first book that I read because I remember trying to read Fall of the Dandos. You read
the first three there's no like piss and shit in this one so I think I read the first three.
I've got to be honest when I started getting into this series and I've read them all now
I say read I listen to them I basically waited for them to go on two for one and three pound
sales on Audible and I remember I like Prospero Burns was one of the first ones I listened
to but it was fine because it's kind of like a separate thing and Descent of Angels so
I kind of went like Horus, Galaxy in Flames, Descent of Angels, Prospero. I did the first
three and then I ping-ponged around a bit until I got enough to go through. I honestly
I have an opinion here which is like first there's a donation by a Knotty from Contact
Kinetic he says I was there the day Horus dropped that problematic tweet. Oh incoming
back up with um 16. Thank you for the shekels. Six twiglies I don't know what the- I'm pretty
sure they're actually shekels I looked it up. Do you want to read that one now, Eli? My
favorite moment from the Horus heresy was when the Emperor turned to his least favorite
son Boingob and told him you really are the Warhammer Aegis Sigmar and then he sent a
horse to rotisserie chicken him man. That was quite the sentence I tell that sentence to
a freaking 12th century child. I mean surely there's a good tasting squig out there for
there's like a thousand different squigs. It's the chicken squig. There's not enough
squig in 40k. For real. There's just not enough squig in 40k. The second book here is False
Gods. This is the corruption of Horus essentially. It's this I mean there's a whole lot of Erebus
unfortunately in this one. This is one where we see they basically turn up well very very
quick synopsis. The Lunar Wars are now the sons of Horus. Sons of Horus are a little
bit like we're kind of a bit we're a bit more aggressive than usual. Horus is a bit melancholic
because he basically was like I'm the Warmaster now I'm gonna be like the peaceful example
for the Imperium and his first few attempts he cocked it up bad or other people will help
cock it up. So now he's just basically gone I'm having a stroppy sort of mode. I'm having
a hystic. I'm having a tantrum. Horus gets betrayed by a man named Eugentemba who's like
a mortal man who's now corrupted by Nergal and then Horus gets stabbed by the like special
blade or the anathane blade. So it's very quick obviously. Horus gets corrupted by basically
they show him what 40k is and he goes like that's disgusting. I hate 40k. And then he
goes but it's a complaint about this novel where he basically goes I won't be manipulated
by anyone. I'll make my own choice. I'm gonna choose that guy's side. And essentially Horus
emerges miraculously safe from his mortal wound. I think this book is A tier simply
for the fact that I think there's a few holes in it. Yeah. But there's some great scenes.
It is the first sorry. Oh you go ahead. I was gonna say it's the first of something
I'm gonna bring up probably multiple times today where the writers write a thing about
Primarchs and then they go oh no we can't have the Primarchs ever getting tricked so
we're gonna have to like change that afterwards. And this happens in one novel. So Horus like
Erebus sneaks in and the way Erebus tries to trick Horus is he takes the form of Sejanus
who was one of the Mournival who previously died if Horus loved very dearly. Horus sees
Erebus and then quickly like sees through him and he quickly like sees through everything
that's going on but he still falls to chaos. And the reason this book doesn't work quite
so well for me is I feel like they should have picked the way Horus was going to fall
and stuck to it. Either he gets tricked or he's an egomaniac or maniac and they don't
really pick a lane and so it doesn't quite work I find. He just kind of like sees a bunch
of statues where all the loyalist Primarchs get statues in this vision and he's like why
haven't I got a statue and that's genuinely the part of the book his mind seems to turn
and you're like this is just weird. Yeah and there's a bit in the later books where it's
explained like oh there's like a piece of him that's still noble and stuff and he's
in the warp fighting for his life and actually he was possessed all this time and so what's
going on with Horus's intentions? I'm not sure. They want to experiment with too many
ideas. There's a few cool scenes which Colin might enjoy as Imperial hater which is when
Horus gets wounded like all the sons of Horus and members of like you know the Space Marine
they're like oh they're like the noble warriors who are like just you know fighting a little
dirty war on the side it's not that bad. When they carry Horus's wounded body back to their
ship to the Amothicarean. They're like cutting through civilians aren't they? Yeah they literally
all the people start like crying going oh my god it's Horus and they go move and they're
literally like stampede. I think they described it as like an actual like mulching of people.
We've all been on the tube and had that thought. On the trains. Oh man no they and then they
kind of are is when like humans first realize like oh this is what it feels like to be on
the other end of fighting the Stardes and they're a little bit more wary of them and
here is that cool my favorite scene is when they do like carry his body down to like the
temple on um not it's not as fun. It's like that I mean they're carrying his body on like
a sort of funeral pyre thing and all of like even the Astartes are like weeping and then
people start praying and then people go like oh no people are praying we're not supposed
to pray at this time you know what I mean this is the anti-prayer ship um it's quite
well written that part. Again lots of cool things happen in the book but it's just overall
like again like they feel like we had an end goal we had to get the character to that end
goal rather than just see what we can explore. Uh next one Galaxy in Flames, Isvam 3. Can
I just add one more note to False Gods real quick? Yeah go for it. I know a lot of people
like make the joke where he's throwing a tantrum it's like you know I feel like being tricked
into a little bit of genocide is a valid reason to be unhappy with your lot in life at that
moment. It might affect your credit score. I don't blame him for being a little bit
upset. We also got some mentions in chat about the poop knife which is an OG Fabius Bile
video. Yeah I've given it a pin for rarest Pepe for bringing it up. That's a deep cut
that's a law crimes deep cut. Um yeah Galaxy in Flames, Isvam makes me cry every day. I
miss you Saul. Does anyone else want to explain this one briefly? It's one of the best Isvams
I think. I can hear Donald Trump of all the Isvams. It's the greatest of something. Andy
likes Flight of Eisenstein I think I'll save Andy for that. I could do a brief rundown
on this one which is basically Isvam 3. Yeah. So characters that we've kind of. Isvam 3
part one. Yeah. Yeah. We kind of followed like the point of view of like a lot of the
characters established in the first two books who were like they're minor characters who
will then not make it further in the heresy. You had like Saul Tarvitz Colin? Yeah. Possibly
yeah he was the leader of the loyalist son Isvam. Yeah this is. I know the outline if
you ask me like a very basic horror scene. I'm not ignorant I know what happens. No no
no. If you ask me for anything resembling. I was using it as a springboard. Fair enough.
Who is this horse guy? If you ask me for anything resembling a scrap of dialogue I'm you know
off Schitt's Creek without a panel. We have a donation from Damien P. Shout out to Damien
Luck. Thank you Damien. Finally catching a stream and thanks for getting me through a
double shift. Also any book where Jagged icon is S+. We'll get to the guy. Hope you're surviving
your shift. Sounds like a long day. We'll get to Jagged Icon. We'll get to a book where
we go yeah oh yeah Jagged Icon's in this. It's amazing. It's a point gob tier. It's
a I mean there's I do think for this particular book again I put it in A just because I know
that some other books I felt much stronger. Above or below false gods do you reckon? It's
not one of those books I'm like oh shit and actually I would I would say compared to the
next novel which is part two of Istvan 3 I would say it's the worst of the two. There's
some cool scenes in it. They mean they kind of start to show like particularly the Emperor's
children there's some of them are starting to show corruption in terms of like Eidolon
who's got this voice box thing surgically put into his throat so he can scream at people
aggressively loud. That is awesome. Stor Tarvis goes that's a little funky what where's that
from site and he goes don't mind your mind your business get off my back. Again the dialogue
on this one is not like I don't think back to this book and I go like oh there's like
a really cool scene but the overall tone in the book is done well because you feel like
pretty much like oh my god like all my favorite characters are in danger. And you mentioned
Torgadon earlier so I mean him dying I mean that's argument for D tier isn't it really
I think. Not only do they kill Torgadon but then as we'll see torture him for the next
20 years. Tarik Torgadon is a Sons of Horrors character and he's the only person who has
a sense of humor as an Astartes. He's the only one who makes jokes and he's so likeable
and second company captain as well so he's like quite high up in the ranks. Yeah he's
a mornable he's tall isn't he he's really tall and then he's really sad when he goes
like he gets killed by his best mate. Little Horus. Garvey. You're feeling a bit glum.
I'm a lovely chap but I do kill people ha ha ha. I'm Tarik I have a moustache. Big
moustache. It's him and Loken fighting Abaddon and uh Horus right? Little Horus. Yeah. It
was funny I read the book first and then when I reread when I listened to the audiobook
and he does that Andy you do fantastic voice there like that voice I was like oh that's
so perfect. Would you like to hear my Horus looping television from the first book? This
is how I sound when I'm the warmaster of chaos. Yeah. The absolute worst voice I think is
actually Mephiston. I listened to um Darks in the Blood I remember. I think it was that
one where that Mephiston is very much like I am Mephiston the chief librarian of the
blood angels. Sounds like Merlin in the Frenzy. Makes sense. Exactly. I love um I love John
Banks's um and again when uh when I asked Hal to do the voice for Mephiston on my video
on my channel I was like I like the John Banks version so like that's kind of what and then
you were like hello I'm Mephiston. I have escaped the curse. That's the one. Very dark
and we love it. Uh next book is the flight of the Eisenstein. S. Which as a name for
a book. Goes hard. Very cool. Does anyone else want to explain this book? Right quick
because it's fine enough I've only read this I just want like one the first one I've read
I can only like half remember it just because it was so long ago. Uh. This this is the other
half of Istvan 3. Yeah. So this gives you this is where we get the last stand of Sultavets
they really realize terrace apart. I like uh I totally thought he was going to come
back he he does not he dies in this novel. It's very sad. Um and you also get like this
is where you get properly introduced to Nathaniel Garrow who will almost certainly become one
of your favorite characters. Uh in fact. I'm the first time we introduced Rogal Dawn because
as he makes it. Yeah. Is he when he escapes he he actually runs into Rogal Dawn and Rogal
Dawn learns for the very first time that. And Garrow goes hey Dawn did you know that
Horace is uh trading guys what did you say and he starts shaking him and smacking him
in the face and then uh is it Mercedes Olatun and he's like no no no no look I have implants
in my brain look here's him killing remembrances and I'm like oh that triggers me specifically.
Um. By the way. When my brother commits atrocities it it gets me a little hot under the color
if you're not I would leave it without shadow of a doubt I would be like absolutely I totally
believe it. We've got a donation by the way. That's his character. Uh is that I can't read
the full name dragon master dragon master dragon master something I can't read the second
part of the name. You're looking master outcast yeah. Thank you. Outcast okay for five years.
I will say as well if you enjoy. 25% of the Horace heresy is good the rest of it is filler
garbage or John Grammaticus. I love John. I love John. To be fair we could have had like
a filler tier that would have been quite good there are a couple of them. This is pure filler.
Uh I will say as well. This has changed the. Lucius is one of those characters that people
love to hate and if you love to hate Lucius then this is the book where you're like oh
he's a total bastard. I could deal with this stuff in Fulgrum but this is worse. Uh. Yep.
And it just gives them it gives them some uh actual time in the sun as well which is nice
they don't just have him getting dogged on. He's in a random novel later not I don't know
if you've read that one but I'll explain because he has no reason he has no business being in
that novel. In uh in the uh Istvan stuff Lucius like 1v10s pretty much and just like obliterates
all the loyalists so it was a nice moment. So what's funny at this point then technically
Trazan the Infinite is just around here like hokerballing people but it's never seen. Like
he's technically there and he takes a few examples. Also notice people. I just love
that. He must have been watching that for a while. Have you guys seen Gravity Falls?
Yes. It's like um Bring Brindon Blandon something like that the time traveler guy if you look
in the background you see him like picking stuff up and fixing an arm was whatever. Yeah.
Although again I loved the memes of the end and the death when people were like trying
to get the third edition there was that meme he was like finally I have them all yeah get
rid of scalpers. Um yeah. You can just kill them. Murderous skull. The only book. The only
book with the prime mark has the name. This is not going up here. It's so good dude it's
so good. I want to explain to you what happens in this book. Make your case. Who's it about?
I don't know. Why is there one more book named that as well what the hell? That's not the
book name. It's you know the book Fulgrim. It's about the guy Fulgrim and the guy Fulgrim's
legion the Emperor's Children and also the Iron Hands are in it quite a lot. Iron Hands
most of Iron Hands lore is in the book about Emperor's Children so that helps I guess.
Yeah and they're taking up the entirety of the book cover. Fulgrim is in Iron Hands.
The first thing I love the covers are really weird for these books but anyways it's uh
man it's been a while but it starts off on the planet Lair or is it Lair in one of the
two. And the Emperor's Children are fighting these cool snake looking things. I kind of
always imagine them similar to Slardar from Dota 2. Sorry for saying that game's name
in our stream but uh Slardar with like six arms type of thing and the Lair are like these
super adaptable wacky creatures where there's casts of the species and there's like warrior
forms and there's like worker forms and they kind of have a lot of genetic engineering
going on. I might just say the whole book I'm sorry. And as they-
Xenos lore. Xenos lore. So yeah I gotta get it in there.
That way we win the Lair and get more lore than the Eldar in the whole series.
Eldar is in this one. Eldar are in this one. It's tough but anyways. Anyways so our Fulgrim-
The Eldar is in this one.
Emperor's Children are fighting really hard. They're fighting a little too hard at some
points but they eventually get to the end of it. They go into this temple where there's
a lot of snakes having segs.
They're also hard fighting.
Yeah and uh okay. Also the planet Lair is like this ocean planet and there's these big
spires on the island so it's cool. It's like a coral type environment.
Coral reef one.
So they go into this segs dungeon with all the rest of the population doing it and they
find this wacky sword in the middle of all of it and they think man that would be really
cool if I took that sword. Nothing bad could ever happen from this. And so Fulgrim takes
the sword as his own little thing and uh I mean we don't have to talk about the rest
of the book.
What is what in 5 happened?
Okay okay so Fulgrim takes the sword. The sword starts making him crazy because it's
actually a Slynesh like Keeper's Secrets type of thing in the sword.
Oh no.
Him and Ferris do some buddy buddy stuff.
Oh my gosh. And the Legion itself is slowly getting kind of corrupted by Fabius Bile because
he sees the Lair and he starts modifying his brothers.
They've got signs of already genetically modifying themselves. It's like that's interesting.
But mind you before this the Emperor's children were like the purest of the pure freaking
good boys Legion. Like in my opinion the best Legion the Imperium had. But Fabius Bile eventually
convinces Fulgrim that you know on the path to perfection we should try new things.
It doesn't take much does it? So Fulgrim actually like threatens him and he's like how dare you
try and improve upon the Emperor's design. He's like no I can give people cool speakers
and he's like oh okay.
He's also hiding he has like space cancer and he's just like oh well what have I got
to lose.
I feel that this book is similar to what I was saying about Horus in False Gods and how
they take Fulgrim and they make him like two different people. They make him the most like
dedicated devout guy and then on the other end they just like have him fold to just about
anything just because a sword told him to which is really annoying. But essentially the Emperor's
children corruption was not their fault at all and the authors just had to make it happen
so they I think they did it in a poor way. But it's very like over reading over the time
it makes a really good like tragedy book where they pursue perfection leads to corruption
in the end because you know nothing can really be perfect.
Is this the one where Solomon Demeter dies?
I think so. If he gets some pale on the statue he's the one who's all like oh you took my
honor from me that's all I had.
There's also a lot of Remembrancer storylines in the book because they're you know the legion
is all about art and music and stuff.
And what's their name is like I made this mural out of my feces. You're like oh great.
So essentially as they as they get corrupted I don't remember quite remember how it happens
but the singer Remembrancer who's like the best singer in the Imperium.
Bekwin.
Yeah Bekwinska. She puts on this big I skipped a lot of the book to hurry this up I guess
but she makes this big performance.
I just reread this one.
Oh I remember it's because it's because Bekka and the Remembrancers go to the Lair temple
and that corrupts them towards Slyneash. So then in that pursuit to perfection you know
as it gets twisted like the rest of the legion does.
Bekka puts on this big performance with like noise marine type weapon or sorry instruments
and it summons demons and everybody kills each other and then that pretty much like
seals the deal and completely corrupts the legion.
This is pretty cool I'm gonna be a noise marine.
So essentially the Emperor's children fell to chaos because Fulgrim picked up a sword
and they watched a performance and the author should be freaking whatever it's fine. It's
a really good book though I think those are dumb reasons to fall but the book itself is
very well written and it makes a really good tragedy book. Also the Eldar are in the book
because Eldrad comes to warn Fulgrim and Fulgrim starts listening to him. Fulgrim starts really
well.
There's three times in this like three or four times in the book where Fulgrim could
have ended the entire Horace heresy but then the sword says don't do that and then he
doesn't. So he's starting to listen to Eldrad and believe him but then the sword said no
he's lying bro and so then he kills the Howling Banshees he beats up an Avatar of Cain with
his big hands.
Another Avatar of Cain gets it.
Yeah and he punches his foot.
It's very quick as well isn't it? It's like seven seconds. He runs up it.
But then later in the book just like a chapter later he's in space about to me with Horace
and he thinks back to what Eldrad was saying and he again he believes him and he gets the
ship's crew to ready their weapons and he's about he's literally about to kill Horace
and destroy his flake ship and then Eidolon freaking Eidolon of course it's Eidolon he
brings in the sword your sword my lord and then he takes a sword and the sword says don't
blow up Horace that would be a bad idea and then he doesn't blow up Horace and that's
the end of it.
And Vespasian the whole time is going oh I remember the good old days.
And then skipping forwards to Istvan also before this Fulgrim fistfights Ferus and he
wins so that's freaking legit. Fulgrim bodies everyone.
Although he it's because yeah Ferus breaks Fireblade and he doesn't expect it to like
blow up in his hands and it knocks him out like stuns him and then he takes advantage.
And so after that Istvan V happens the Empress children's are completely fricked like even
the traitor marines are like who the heck are these guys this is terrible.
Fulgrim goes to fight Ferus he beats him and then he doesn't want to kill him but then
the sword pretty much moves his hand for him and he cuts his head off and then Fulgrim's
just there like regretting everything like what have I done I made the wrong choice I
should have never done this and then he just gives up and gives into the demons possession
and it's such a sad story it's probably it's the saddest story that I've ever read in 40k
personally so.
The longer that went on the worse the rating I feel like.
Like it's a BB BB BB.
I feel like Garo's death was sadder to me.
Oh Garo.
Go ahead Ed.
We're a while off that.
I do get why you would really like this book like there are some really good scenes the
orchestra scene where they summon the demonets and the noisemans come out that is really
well written and the death of Ferus Manus is great and even things like the the painting
at the end that's such a great point and we'll talk about this more later like the fact that
they like I thought that was such a great narrative choice and so I get why you would
really like this novel I totally do I think that Istvan V is one of those things that
could have been a bit better thought out and I like I just don't get what Ferus was doing.
Yeah.
I don't get why.
The book suffers from a major problem which is they probably thought this would be like
a 10 book series.
That's true yeah.
So they tried to do everything and they you can tell that they probably force a lot they
force a lot.
They've done way too early.
But it's also like.
I feel like this book really pushes the full grim Horus friendship quite hard actually
and like you realize how close they were because full grim Legion suffering so much from their
kind of like cancer that they basically suffer from like actually meant that they had to
kind of work under the sons of Horus for a while and so yeah you get a real close there
but then full grim Ferus who was supposed to be the big bro ship you're like why are
you friends like it's tough to see.
DJ Beast says don't blow up Horus you're so sexy haha that's what this is.
But I think just the overall theme like the theme and the philosophy of the book is because
I think it tries to say a little bit more than the average you know Horus heresy chaos
is bad book and like the pursuit of perfection can really destroy you and completely change
who you are as a person and lead to a road of damnation very easily.
It's a very dangerous thing.
My only problem with the book is it just suffers from you know what I mean it's like the sum
of all the parts is the problem I have with it not the parts itself.
The reason I put it in B is because again I'm looking at the rest of the tiers and I'm
setting quite a high bar and I thought full grim was a book is I wouldn't go back and
reread full grim if I was to reread a Horus heresy book like I enjoy parts of it like
you said yeah even if it's about to call in here I wouldn't say to Colin go read that
book like that's the one Horus heresy book that should absolutely be read like I don't
think it's terrible.
I think B tier is terrible.
No I was gonna say one of the things I really struggle with is something like actually I
think Dan Abnett mentioned in the end of the death epilogue where he was like the book
should stand on its own and it's quite hard to do that with the Horus heresy because of
course with full grim we've already had all this development for a character like Lucius
so his scenes mean so much more in this book but like if you just take full grim on its
own you're like it's a huge time span and so there's so much you go through like even
as you're going through it there you're like it's like oh yeah and then we get is fan five
it's like oh my god we still get is fan five to go and we've gone through so much up until
that point so it's just it's kind of it's a as a novel I don't know if I would say I'm
no literary critic but like I can just tell you what Warhammer I like.
What tier do you want to put it in there do you think is B, A?
I am a bit conscious as I'm sure you all are I've put too much in S and A so I feel like
it being harsh and putting it in B but I feel like it's a high B.
We're getting close to an Alpha Legion book and I already know what quality I'm going
to say.
Can we get an Alpha Legion tier below filler?
Well you were saying about like a book should stand on its own as a self-contained story
here's Descent of Angels.
I mean it does so well in that regard doesn't it doesn't it do so well so I don't think
I'd ever put it in S tier I don't think it's one of the best Archangel's novels but this
was like one of the books that made me fall in love with Down as a Faction.
I thought people hated this book.
So much.
I didn't mind it.
People do sorry that's what I'm caveating people do typically dislike this novel I think
one of the big things is though is that of course most of it all of it is not set during
the Horus Heresy it is the story of the lion on Caliban and defeating the great beasts
so it kind of pulls you out and I don't want to be harsh enough to put it in filler but
arguably it kind of goes into that filler category because it's just you could have
if you wanted to tell a Horus Heresy story you could have told a Horus Heresy story.
It's not worthy of an Anthology Filler level.
What makes it worse I think is that Zahariel's storyline it sets up Zahariel as a character
but Zahariel's storyline goes all over the place because he has no consistent writer
all of all of his writers after this are different and so it kind of seems a little bit filler
having said that I did really enjoy the novel because Caliban is such a great world.
Because the trouble with anything set in 30k is you can't put it outside of the Horus Heresy
series it's not like 40k where you can have like a little we're just going to talk about
these characters in 40k like everything has to be contained in this setting and this is
the only series where you can do 30k stuff other than a short story.
For me when I listened to this book I really enjoyed how it's set up the Dark Angels and
it was almost like you had this grand five book series and it's like here's everything
going on blah blah and it's like right you guys are excited let's calm down a minute
have a bit of a palate cleanser let's talk about something different and I really enjoyed
the world building I enjoyed that.
It's a fancy book isn't it?
It's a fancy book.
And I actually really enjoyed this book and it's the only time you get to talk about it.
This is actually one of those handy questions I prepared kind of prepared if like I know
you're saying Andy and I get it but genuine question if you removed this book just delete
it because most of it takes place before the Horus Heresy is the Horus Heresy actually
harmed that's something about the filler like filler doesn't mean bad a filler the filler
can be great some of the Dragon Balls in filler is fantastic but it's still filler it still
doesn't mean bad.
You'd have to change some stuff but you'd be fine.
I think the main thing is it sets up so much about the lion and how Caliban turns against
him that if you didn't include this everyone would be like what that was a bit out of nowhere
so I get what you're saying but I think I'm like.
If you removed the Caliban plot line for the lion story throughout the Horus Heresy it
would be exactly the same because he's nowhere near Caliban.
Well the really funny thing about that the end of the Horus Heresy I should say.
Go ahead.
A really funny thing about the Dark Angel storyline for me is that they kind of forgot
that they needed to develop Luther I felt right and I know I don't actually know that
maybe it was deliberate but I don't think it was because if you just read the Horus
Heresy to clarify you don't actually know why Luther turned on the lion because you
don't get a lot of Luther POV throughout the Dark Angels novels you know he finds a very
mysterious book that he shouldn't have found and you know that's he's clearly very enigmatic
and mysterious and doesn't seem very trustworthy but you don't actually see that.
That plot development had to be written afterwards and put into Luther's own.
It's a full book.
It's a full book but that covers.
Oh the Knights of Luke. It goes and it explains what demons he worked with etc etc but like
they don't actually tell that story in the heresy and that's what's really weird and
it does kind of feel like they forgot to tell it.
Do you know I was gonna say earlier as well if I had like fun money I would love to host
a competition where we just redesign the Horus Heresy novel covers because they actually
like if you looked at the like Fulgrim or Descent of Angels here you can't really tell
what kind of story you're about to get like Descent of Angels you don't really the lion's
kind of not the main character in it you follow a character called Zahariel who just for reference
is kind of basically cipher later on although that's a big question but so Zahariel will
have ended up being cipher so that's a big thing but in Descent of Angels you're just
following a guy hunting an old hunting gang in a forest.
And it starts off with them killing an emperor but not the emperor it's like you're not a
real emperor you you're just like a pretender.
I mean I liked it just because I really enjoyed that refresh it was like a palate cleanser
but I do I don't want to put it in filler but I how about this we put it at the top
of filler I would how about that I would arguably put it in the top of B because again I think
the filler category is like this is that's that's its own thing this is not personally
just we want to look like I'm objective when I evaluate the Dark Angels so I'm fine to put
it in filler.
Okay.
But you can make my hair look like a better person.
We're going to make a wrong choice.
Because like I'm with Colin like putting it in filler doesn't actually mean for me that
I didn't enjoy it I really enjoyed that and I would read that again on a lazy Sunday.
Filler can be great it's just if you remove it not that much.
Yeah.
The Naruto ship it in.
What's the speak to you?
Mechinaruto is a treasure of humanity and should be treated as such.
Okay.
But what's the level is it like one piece filler.
All right.
That's a whole new fucking level right there.
Sorry Andy.
Andy go ahead.
I was gonna say we've done six.
We've got to move.
But I want to preface this one with like I feel like Colin's been a bit quiet for a while
so I'd like to offer an olive branch to Colin be like Colin would you like to tell us what
you think about this Alpha Legion book.
No problem.
There's no way you've read this book.
No there's not but I don't need to read it's an Alpha Legion book it's gonna start and
end with everything you just read as a lie and therefore it goes in fucking trash garbage
rain gear.
This is actually a good book.
It's so good.
After what you did to Fulgrim I need this book to go on boing gobs here.
I don't I can't I can't do it.
This book is I would consider putting it in Hale Boing Gobs just because it's the only
book.
It's so good.
It's the only book that doesn't treat it doesn't treat you like an idiot reading Alpha
Legion.
And John Guamanicus is cool.
Sorry how can we talk about putting Caliban in the filler category and not put the Cabal
in the filler category.
Look at this massive massive deal that neatly ties itself up.
Like it's so.
The Xenos.
There's still John Guamanicus stays around though so it's part of his story which goes
through the entire horse.
There's an entire Xenos thing.
The Dark Angels stick around.
Okay yeah.
But this book is so good though and it has Dorne and Flay.
I just this is the thing about Alpha Legion right.
It's the what is the point of this.
Thank you.
What is the whole.
When they meet the Cabal and they're like oh but we knew about you but you knew about
me but we knew what we knew about you.
I'm just like okay is this how old are we.
It's just at a certain point you need to pick a lane.
Someone has to be on top here and it's just all kind of murky.
I think you'll see other Alpha Legion books were better than we probably wouldn't be arguing
about.
What other Alpha Legion books.
But the what they called the.
It's like two.
The I've forgotten their names now.
The like the short story ones or the.
No sorry the soldiers who get killed at the end.
Oh I don't know.
Lucifer Blacks.
They were great.
Loved them.
They were epic.
Really epic scene.
And it's like I complain here though which is there's an entire Xenos faction called
the Cabal who are like we're going to manipulate you man.
That plot line was so bad that Eldrad all three and had to come out of the shadow realm
to come in.
You're not a real Xenos.
This is the original GW giving up on the Xenos plot line.
Oh gosh.
I know.
I would say the killings of the Cabal is like one of my favorite parts of it.
So that's Horace Rising is better than this book.
I'm sorry.
OK.
Horace Rising I put top of this.
This is so nice to me because it's the only good Alpha Legion book.
Andy I'm not having it.
I'm not having it.
Garrow is amazing.
Next one is.
Him and his bro man's with Saul.
Battle for the Abyss.
Yeah.
Self defense.
Active self defense.
Did you want to just play stealth.
I'm really not going to go here.
I'm going to go green.
You're going to go green.
Can we bring D back below filler.
Because is it is it bad or is it filler?
OK.
Yeah.
So yeah.
This is if you're not familiar with this book, this is the word bearers.
We've got a Death Star and it is called the Abyss and the most generic team of space marines
ever created is sent to go and take it out.
Well, yeah.
Again this is from the time where the Horace Heresy was a setting.
They had set up and everything, everything up until Fulgurim was to set up.
I think the Horace Heresy and now it's just we'll throw in the old books.
And so this is one of those like random things they threw in at the start.
And yeah, it's just basically 40k.
Man, this thing is trying to hurt you, Andy.
I know.
I don't know what it's doing.
There we go.
That's better.
Yeah.
About the Abyss is such a forget.
I can't remember what happens in this book.
There's a thousand sun and an ultramarine and the guy here.
And like the most spaceful, fee spaceful.
I physically can't remember and I have a fairly good memory.
I can't remember what happens in this book.
No, no relevance really to the story.
If you remove this book, that's fine.
We should an author tier this at some point.
Maybe too mean.
I feel bad because they're real human beings.
Mechanicum.
Oh, so good.
This book is so good.
Quite an enjoyable book.
I think it's pretty good.
Yeah.
I would say it's solid A. Yeah.
I think as a Warhammer book, it's a boing go up tier, but I guess as Horace Heresy,
I can settle for A too.
And it's definitely one of those books I would recommend people read if you are bouncing
around the Heresy type person because it leads into a pretty big plot point that they kind
of leave open at the end of the novel, which it affects.
Actually, I will say it's on the very first.
This will be fine for 10,000 years.
So it's one of the first.
Oddly specific number.
It's very good.
But yeah, you'd actually cut, I think right at the start, they're pretty sure this book,
The Emperor actually comes to Mars and you see that for the first time, which is just
great.
Shout out to Neon.
Neon Elefgrave, she says, not Neon, sorry, well good to see you brother.
We see you around.
And then there's Krieg Garsman who says, Colin, wave if you need help.
Oh, filler.
Next one.
It literally is.
It's just short stories, right?
Yeah.
And look at this stocky Angron.
What is this?
So many weird-
He's a Primarch.
They're big.
I know he's a Primarch, but look at him.
He looks like a barrel.
Do you know what he looks like?
He looks like that recent custodian model, the warm melter.
That looks a little bit squat, if you know what I mean.
Like he's a bit-
He's short.
And he's not.
He's not.
He's short.
And he's not.
He looks like if you got him in Photoshop and just went squish.
I'm like, what is this gate going on?
Yeah, I know what you mean.
It does look like someone did it deliberately.
Horsehair C cover art is like pre-AI art.
I'm sure I've sent you the guys like the-
I think they just called it art.
But it looks like a weird version of the AI generated stuff you see now.
Thing is, I've sent you guys in the chat a few months ago, like the concepts where it's
the- they've obviously made it like in a-
3D modeling.
A 3D modeling program.
And you can see like the globule versions of them in the poses.
And it's like at the time of the release of these books, faces and stuff like that are
kind of jank.
And it looks a bit strange in modern perception.
What is going on with Age of Darkness here?
What is this?
The Horsehair started in 2005, right?
Yeah.
This is like Doom 3 graphic engine.
Yeah, that's still when video games were just getting out of like talking being the-
Battlefront 2 had just been released.
Okay.
It's 2005.
Battlefront 2 is released.
It's 2025.
Wake up.
Battlefront 2 has just been released.
Oh, we'd probably trade Battlefront.
The brain, the inkarn, bro, it's 2005.
Eldar is still cool.
It's 2005.
We don't need day one patches in any video game ever.
Those were the good old days.
Next novel though, D-tier, this one's called Fallen Angels.
This is the most dark angels book.
This book is a waste of time.
This is basically the Lion finds out Horus is betrayed.
The Lion finds out Horus has betrayed the Imperium and then he just goes to this planet
to grab some siege equipment.
They have a terrible crappy battle path.
I'm just saying maybe I should take care of it.
I'm just saying.
Just give it to you, that's right.
But yeah, this novel, barely anything happens in it.
It's forgettable and the Lion doesn't act like his usual self.
I always said you should have been War Master.
I'm just saying.
I think if ever there's a vote, if ever there's a vote of no confidence in the guy who's
literally betrayed the...
When we kill Horus, I promise, I promise I'll be there.
I agree.
It's the first of the...
There's a couple of dark angels books do this where you have the Caliban side and the
Lion side because of course, at the end of Descent of Angels, Luther kind of almost lets
someone nearly almost blow up the Lion.
And so the Lion sends Luther and a bunch of other dark angels back to Caliban.
They are there to bring them all recruits.
So you get that side of things a bit more Zahariyot, which is kind of good.
And you get the Knights of Lupus stuff coming back in.
But yeah, exactly.
To say one thing that makes it worse to your point now is like with the siege engines, they
do get brought up in the siege of terror.
But again, they're not really relevant to anything.
It's just like, oh, and they've got those siege engines.
The Lion gave him.
It's like, cool.
Thanks for rubbing that in.
It's such a pointless...
It could be filler, but it's actually not like a filler book.
It's not an anthology, but this one is so pointless, this book.
I would have honestly deleted this book.
I may have reserved that off a lot further in.
Next one though, A Thousand Sons.
Now I have a lot of bias this one because I enjoy a lot of the world building in this,
but I recognize this book is probably not top tier, but I enjoyed this book.
This was one of the first ones I read, weirdly enough.
DTF because I hated Magnus' noodle hands.
Yeah.
Oh yeah, that's weird.
This is where you get to...
If you want to find out if Magnus did anything wrong, this is your book basically.
And I would say yes.
Aaron Fetkeberg agrees with that.
Yeah I would say that's about it.
I wouldn't actively defend it.
He says do a couple of really stupid things in the novel and it kind of irks me, but it's
not bad.
Yeah, it kind of reminds me of Fulgrim, in Fulgrim.
The authors just make them do dumb things because they need to do dumb things.
And so Magnus ruins everything even though he's like the smartest guy there is.
I enjoyed The Thousand Sons, the actual like legion part of it so much just because it
makes them seem like a futuristic, well-rounded, like elite warrior sort of group.
They have cool psychic power moments too.
Yeah, but then it just, again, I don't watch it for the plot.
If you know what I mean.
By the way, we got a donation from Dayacon for $999.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
He says, a huge fan of lore crimes, oh I got scrolled, a huge fan of lore crimes and listen
to it for help getting through the work week.
The lack of WHFB slash AOS factions beginner to expert is a crime.
I agree.
You guys rock.
This man's my lifeline right now.
We have another donation.
Yup.
Do you want to take a look?
For 6f6 for $5, thank you very much.
Fellas, two questions, is Godric and Felix omnibus 5, there's five omnibuses?
Is Godric and Felix omnibus 5 necessary and what should I read after Slayer?
They're all necessary and after Slayer you should cry and then read the-
After Slayer you should start again.
I won't lie, I've read all the Godric AOS stuff.
Wow.
Not bad.
It's good.
It's okay.
I mean, to be fair, there's some of them that are like, I feel like it suffers from the,
no, but it has a problem with a lot of the other Godric and Felix which is like, some
of them you get like, could skip this one, but I still enjoyed it, you know what I mean?
But if you remove it from the Horus heresy, does it affect you?
Yeah.
To be fair, someone has made an artwork of it, I think it's Khan, like towering over
Godric who's raising an axe, I need to find that artwork.
Oh yeah, I've seen that artwork actually.
That was enjoyable.
You don't want to build this Rhino.
Just for people who-
Okay, sorry.
Good.
I was going to say on A Thousand Sans, the one thing that I always like, hate about this
novel is I can't remember his name, but the space wolf who becomes friends with Araman.
So this is the book where you start to hate space wolves.
Oh, I know his name, Ophi had a weird make.
He makes the weird.
Weird boy, right?
So this weird boy, this is the part where you start to see how stupid the space wolves
are because they clearly use magic, the warp magic, but they don't refer to it as warp
magic because it is the energy of Fenris or something like that, right?
It's their explanation.
And to the degree that in this novel, Araman teaches him how to do some stuff and he teaches
Araman how to do some stuff because they can do the same stuff.
And then weird boy speaks at the council of Nikea and says, well, they're doing magic.
It's like so you.
Trust them, they're not using the power of Fenris, which is drawn from my home world
and it's fine.
That's right.
Space wolf haters just don't get it.
Common space wolf.
Like L.
Yeah, the space wolf in this one.
This book was a space wolf W last I checked, isn't it?
Yeah, but this book is so weird, bro.
The thing is, I did a video on weird make and pretty much most of the comments are like,
I was so happy when Araman tore his soul apart and let it be feasted on by the warp.
And it's like, oh yeah, he wasn't a good fella, was he?
And then you got like target I use to guy from the White's cause like, well, actually,
I think moderation is a good idea.
And maybe we should like see this more as like a primal force.
And then we were like, ah, sorcery.
It's like, no, you can't be like that.
You're naughty.
I again, I can't let it go.
I hate how the space was in the beginning of the novel.
They arrive on that desert planet and all the thousands of sons using magic to call
themselves damn being like, God, it's even hot from the starties.
And the space will are decked out in fur.
And they're like, this is how we roll.
We just know the space was don't even, they said they are still cool because apparently
their GZ is so good.
Like they just don't suffer from temperature changes.
So even if they're in the freezing cold, they're still there to be fair, being a lawman, they
are part of the tree foil.
So they were made for a specific purpose.
And if that is to be like, we can just kill anyone in any environment then.
The enjoyable part is the burning of prosper in this book.
Quite tragic.
A bit too fast.
This book feels like so long, like my God.
The idiots of Nikea happens in this as well.
And Magnus again delivers his butchering of the Allegory of the Cave, which I haven't
forgiven him for.
But I think Citi is fine for this.
Again, the book is like, all right.
And there's the enjoyable parts of it, but it's not, you can't compute the things above
it.
By the way, we got a donation from Tom Warren to $5 saying, I was super angry that Omnibus
V of Omnibus V because it broke up the flow of the main books, but the stories in it are
really good on their own.
It is still gothic.
With Brian Blessed, who I've met and he's a lovely man.
Next book, Nemesis.
I actually really enjoyed this one too.
I didn't.
I think this is actually one of those ones that has like a cult following.
I know the basics of the book.
It's one of those things where they go, let's assassinate Horus and you know going in, Horus
isn't going to die.
And at the end they go, let's not assassinate Horus.
This is an assassination attempt that goes so wrong, they decide at the end of the book
that they will never try and assassinate him again, except for the times when they do try
to assassinate Horus.
Paul Luke Sedere, who's literally wearing Horus's arm, is like, oh, I must be very important.
I'm going to address the people.
Headshot.
And you're like, oh, Luke, you poor man.
The book could be great, but it's filler.
If they're trying to, it's like, I'm going to kill ex Primarch.
You know what's going to happen?
It was just nice to have like an assassinorum book where you got to see the dynamic of like
the first ever kill team working together and being like, oh, you got an Eversoar and
a Vindicare and blah, blah, blah.
And you see how they like don't like each other because of like, oh, she changes shape
and he's just a murderer and he's a camper.
Yeah, yeah.
To be fair, one thing in its defense, Constantine finger guns.
Yeah.
Constantine Valde at one point is in the alley and he just goes bow bow bow with finger guns
and then people start popping.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
He literally goes like, I am the will of the emperor.
He's poised.
Observe.
And he goes, oh, someone's head explodes and he goes point.
An assassin is like miles away.
So he's like, you die, you die.
So that was a cool part.
I literally heard that and I had this idea of like, you could use that same setup with
a Vindicare and you could have like an ecclesiarchy zealot.
Like I had this story idea of like, imagine he was like confronting an orc warband and
he made a prime orc as like a primarch and he was like, you are destined to be like the
leader of your people.
And he tricks him into believing that he's like the son of the emperor and he uses the
Vindicare to like blow up the enemies of his like warband and he makes him like believe
he's strong and therefore he becomes strong.
That sounds like some mock tarious level of it's a fun fiction.
Bro, not this year.
I cannot go wrong, bro.
It'll be fine.
Yeah.
And that's the fun part.
And we got donation from practical, by the way, from $5 saying, but there was that cool
scene where a thousand sun uses magic to pilot a warlord Titan.
That is a next book though, is I think it is tier one.
First heretic.
Really enjoyed this book.
Aguiltal showing philosophy, corruption of chaos, Isfahan five shenanigans, custodians.
I think there's one of the few books where, and also a lot of lore are in it as well.
The full book flows.
Change of tone there.
The book just flows really well and every character, I didn't hate any character in
this really enjoyable and it's really interesting.
I think if I was to recommend it, oh, you meant to, that's the whole point.
You don't, but he's well-rounded.
He's like as well, you know, I heard Gilamon is like really well written.
And is this the one where he also, oh, this isn't the one where he cranks an avatar of
Cain, is it?
No, that's a different one.
Yeah, that's a short story.
I would have put it higher.
A wounded avatar of Cain, may I specify such an actual matchup?
Forgrim's avatar was full power.
I was, I said that doesn't make me feel happier that there's a brain.
Because it does make it like seem like a Primarch is this equivalent of a wounded avatar of
Cain.
That should be the level.
The weakest of all Primarchs is an equivalent.
Enjoyable book though, if Gilamon is okay with it, S2.
Yeah, it also has some Custody Ls in it.
And I like Custody Ls for the same reason why I like Space Wolf Ws, because people just
see them so much.
And it's so funny to watch these people just lose their minds.
Speaking of Space Wolves, Eli, this was on the, I was a little kid when I read this and
I liked it.
I, I, this was one of my first ones and I really loved the perspective that most of
it is from the perspective of a Skeld, which is like the equivalent of like the Space Wolves
remembrances where he's like, they have an oratory tradition of we pass down the legends
of the chapter through our Skelds.
And I really liked similar to Descent of Angels, how this one had a real deep dive into how
does this chapter work?
And the whole meme of there are no wolves on Fenris.
And it's like, I enjoy losing myself in the cultures of fantasy realms and this was a
really fun read for me.
Do you want to hear a really funny thing?
So they, the writers were told to stop saying there are no wolves on Fenris, apparently.
So I can't remember which writer said this, but someone, this was a, they post about this
online because they started saying there are no wolves on Fenris.
And of course that became a massive meme and everyone's thinking like, what does that mean?
Does that mean that like, does that mean that starts in, he says it first, I think in A
Thousand Sons and everyone's like, what does that mean?
Does that mean like the wolves on Fenris are actually like A Thousand Sons?
Does it mean that like they're like, you know, not organic space wolves?
What is it?
And space and GWN, just to clarify, we sell a bunch of space wolf models riding wolves.
You can't keep saying this.
But they also don't regard themselves as a chapter as space was like, no, we are the
route.
We are the Vilka Fenrica.
That's just what the Imperium calls us.
Well, it's not, it's not said in that respect.
It's like Magnus the Red says it about the space wolves.
So it's like, what's he trying to get at it?
Like, and everyone's trying to say.
I think he's trying to imply like they weren't like either they used to be like human who
like got, yeah, they were something I think was the, or genetically mutated or like, or
genetically created back when Fenris was made.
So it's like an ongoing like Magnus like, you know, magic is everywhere.
You know, I actually haven't read this book.
This is interesting though.
I don't know how to rate this one.
It's good.
I think it's good.
It's probably not as good as Mechanicus, but I feel like it's either better than Descent
of Angels because there's actually some plot relevance to the Horus heresy.
Like, I like how Bjorn is in it and he's called Bear.
He's just known as Bear.
And he, he, there's this like exchange where the main character who is a Skeld, who they
basically go like, we're gonna, he like, he's implanted by Magnus to be a spy and he doesn't
know that.
And so he accompanies the space wolves as their Skeld and you get to learn a bit about
their culture and Bear, aka Bjorn is like, oh, I shot down your, your, your vessel.
Whoops.
And then he then protects his Skeld and like, then there's this bit at the end of the book
where they, they basically like, hey, you, you are like too dangerous with Magnus in
mind to keep free.
So we're going to like put you where the Dreadnaughts live and put you in like suspended animation
and he accepts this.
And it's this whole thing of like, I really enjoy the, the dynamic between, here is an
alien culture.
I don't mean alien, like, like Xenos, but like, here's a culture I have absolutely no
concept of and I'm trying to figure it out.
And as the audience reading or listening to the book, you go, I'm in the Skeld's, I can't
remember his name, the Skeld's POV and I don't get it.
And as the book progresses, you start to understand how the space wolves work.
And that's a really fun, at least for me, that was a really fun experience.
And I know people-
It's not going in S2.
It's not going in S2, but I'm just saying, I think it's really good.
And a lot of people-
Maybe his space wolf fan is a little kid.
What's the-
I actually put thousand sons, but if I was doing it myself, I would put a thousand sons
above Prospero Burns.
You know what?
Maybe they're just the same book.
They are the same.
I mean, they're kind of the same.
It's kind of the same.
I do like the stuff of Bjorn.
I like great character or Bear, as he's known in that novel, but it's tough.
I don't know.
Nothing really grips me about that.
You don't feel that strongly about it.
Oh, next one.
Next one is Fila.
I was saying, I was doing this before, so hard to rank the anthologies because they're
all over the place.
I think this is the one I like the most.
I think this is the one that has Dantioch in for the first time.
And it has the Curse versus Lion fight number one with Corswain.
So I think that's in this one.
So I would rank this one at the highest of the anthologies, I think.
I quite like Talon and Korraks.
I think they're quite good.
I'm trying to think.
Yeah, they're all over the place.
In fact, which one?
Oh, Tales of Heresy, I think, actually has Last Church, doesn't it?
Yeah.
I think I want to say.
So that's also quite good.
It's very hard.
They're just anthologies.
Yeah.
Don't even deserve to be in the list.
The Outcast.
I actually really enjoy this book.
I don't.
Again, I feel not strongly about it whatsoever.
I do feel like not a lot of care was put into the novel.
Well, may I make my case?
Sure.
The reason I really enjoy this book is that you have a weird misfit band.
If you've got this guy from the Fires and Suns, you've got a Lunar Wolf, you've got
two world leaders, you've got this band of like, we've been imprisoned by the actions
of our legions.
These guys are all part of the Crusader host.
Yes.
And they're all like, we are part of the Crusader host.
We're the representatives of each legion.
And what the Imperium did is they said, we're going to, heresy's happening.
We're going to imprison you all.
So Varian is part of this band, he becomes a proto-Grey Knight, part of the Knight's
Errant.
But the main conflict is like them versus like a Thunder Warrior who has a criminal
band or like a cartel.
And they're protecting this Navigator fella.
And I really enjoy how unique and weird this book is.
Because like, there's an Empress Children guy, there's a Lunar Wolf, there's two Lunar
Wolves, I think, actually.
There's a couple of world leaders, blah, blah, and a Thousand Sun.
And it's just like a weird band of misfits trying to vindicate their actions, knowing
that they're going to be hunted down.
Also, two world leaders kill a custodian while they're in business.
With their bare hands, baby, with their bare hands.
And it's like, I really enjoy that this is just a weird book.
And it stands out like a saw farmer.
I love that kind of book, because in this setting, it would be so easy to be like, we're
going to do another one about the Blood Angels and how they fight, they're good fight.
I'm like, I want this weird stuff, because that's where fun experimentation and ideas
come from.
And also, Severian gets a spin off where that Japanese swordsman tracks him down under orders
from Malkador.
And he's like, oh, he can be a knight's errand, because he's actually quite good at like,
not dying.
And I just really like the detail, isn't it?
That guy.
Yeah, he's so like out of place.
It's just a Japanese swordsman.
There's a samurai in 40k.
It's one of the assassin types, right?
Was FromSoft writing this book?
What?
The thing is, he's not like an assassin or a member.
He's just like a guy who's like, I have a sword that I've been using for my time.
There are like ninja samurai.
I have an actual katana.
And they try to kill Severian.
There's a score of the Inquisition that they have, it's like the minor.
And the Inquisition isn't a thing yet.
Yeah, but there's a minor one.
The assassin orm though.
They have where they practice cutting with a, making the perfect cut with a blade.
There's an entire Inquisitional order that does that.
And this is the guy who probably would help with foundry or something.
To be fair, it doesn't mind.
There is actually like a competition where it's like, if you sit in your knees and you
have a katana, there's like an actual competition where it's like draw speed.
Kind of like when you get guys who like compete, how quickly can you draw and fire a six rounds
of a revolver?
The same thing exists in our world of like, how quick can you draw a sword cut and like,
you got to click and then you're back in the sheath.
And it's like, it's just these guys.
While you were studying the law, I was studying the blade fellows.
This is ultimately this book.
You have to rate this one.
It can be good and filler.
Fillers is not inherently bad.
It is a filler book.
If someone likes it on the basis of it having a thunder warrior.
I just say though, okay, probably this novel is that there's a big plot hole in this novel.
It's huge, which is that they get the order of Magnus contacting the emperor wrong and
they try to wreck on it later on.
I think there's a, I can't remember which novel, Malkadot says, oh, actually it took
a while for the signal to reach.
I'm like, you could have made that clear in the novel.
It just feels like they forgot the order.
Also they don't tie up the thunder warrior dying.
What's his name?
I can't remember his name, but he's like, I'm a crime boss, but I was a thunder warrior.
And at the end of the book, it's like, I'll be back one day.
And he never comes back.
They fight some scary demon thing at the end, don't they?
Some dark angel emperor demon thing.
I'm pretty sure that happened.
There's a plot hole in Fulgrim.
I just remember it's the one where Fulgrim mentions, you know, old world eaters, Angra
and Watarion and Lorgar are ready to strike at the emperor.
And he's like, he shouldn't know that yet.
Well, this is a random mistake.
I have a question.
If the fact that Severian, who's the lunar wolf in this band, survives to go on to be
important in the series, does that mean it can't be filler?
No.
I'll put it in the top of the list.
People from Battle for the Abyss survive.
I guess it's a good question, but I think I have the same thing with Descent of Angels
where, I guess technically it introduces like Zahariel, but like you could have just put
that into something else.
In this one, it's like Severian is quite an important, he becomes like one of the first
Grey Knights.
Oh, you can put it in C tier, I think, just in terms of like, it has that much impact.
And honestly, I just think like this book is so unique.
I just like the fact that it deserves.
I do feel like it gets more hate than it deserves.
Yeah, I don't get it.
It's like, let people cook.
Let people cook.
What's the next one, Andy?
The next one, let me just scroll down, is, oh no, Raven Guard.
Deliverance Lost.
How will you, how will you, how will you, Raven Guard?
How will you, Raven Guard?
Oh no, I would love to read the book.
If Corvus or Vulcan are the covers, can we just put it in D and move on?
Yeah.
Okay, okay.
This is a cool book.
I didn't enjoy it that much.
I liked it.
All right.
They used plot convenience.
I can't remember some cool parts.
Yeah.
They used, just the one with the Alpha Legion and invade the Raven Spire.
They used plot convenience to make it so that the Raven Guard don't get destroyed, but.
That's some of the better Alpha Legionnaire tactics and where they genuinely do stuff.
Yeah, it was cool.
Although.
I like that.
And this is the psychic stuff they do with the changing of their faces.
Yeah, it's cool.
That kind of thing.
Yeah.
The relationships between Corvus and the Emperor is actually quite nice, quite good.
I'm not talking you into a higher tier though.
The entire.
Yeah.
Sorry, I'm trying to give it some stuff.
Yeah.
The entire Raven Guard Legion hangs on the thread that the author decided for the Alpha
Legionaries to not kill a guy and let him crawl out the door right in front of them.
Yeah.
So like every time the Alpha Legion takes an L it's from like the worst right, right
impossible, the worst like stupid.
Oh, they were so arrogant and prideful that they let this guy like away.
Like what the heck?
She's so stupid.
We wanted to prove we could do this.
It's so dumb.
The way I see like whenever I do a Raven Guard video, they always have like an Essex or a
Cox Cockney accent.
Cause I'm like, these guys are like, we worked in new mines, we worked in the literal salt
mines.
We don't.
We don't do no fielding from the IT crowd.
That's what I try to do.
Goff to boss.
You know, that's basically when we did this stream the other day and I went like, oh,
we found a Goff baby.
Yeah.
I have one defense for this book, which is the Corax returns to terror and the Emperor
says you can have the Geneseed reserves, but they're locked in that special maze, which
is like all booby trap.
And only you are best equipped to get through it.
He has to direct all of the Legion being like left turn, three paces north, wait two minutes.
He literally does that bit in Ocarina of Time.
We get to the Lost Woods where you have to go like left, right, up, left, right.
And he's like, yeah, he just had the cheat code installed.
It's a real one-call scene.
But again, this book is, do you think those are the bit where they hide from his farm?
They're like all like holding their breath in that ship being like, don't kill me.
But then the book is like a forgettable.
I kind of.
I think it was cool.
I mean, they like this book basically made the Alpha Legion the strongest Legion in the
setting and they really didn't go anywhere with it.
Here we go, Colin.
It's just classic.
It's classic Alpha Legion.
They gave them unlimited space marines.
Would you like to explain why they are now the most, what do you mean for people who
don't know?
From what I remember, the Emperor had given Corax basically like some kind of, to make
like kind of proto, kind of like Primaris Marines, but also just like mass to mass produced
space marines to rebuild his legion because he was destroyed.
And so then the Alpha Legion come in and steal and the Alpha Legion almost destroy the entire
Raven Guard Legion.
But like I said, a guy crawls out the door right in front of their eyes and they don't
do anything about it.
And that is why the Raven Guard is still here today.
Is that the Apothecary?
Yes, the Apothecary.
Vicente VI.
I remember listening to the book and being like, kill the guy, kill the guy, kill it.
And then they just don't.
And it's like, what the heck?
And then his like mutated wrapped sons are like, daddy.
They also created the first chaos raptors.
Yeah.
And then he's like, oh, my daddy is dead.
I'm going to kill some Alpha Legion.
Yeah, because they corrupted a bunch of the Raven Guard gene seed, but they almost did
all of it.
But then they didn't because the author needed to make sure the Raven Guard were still around
in 4K.
They had like a special gimmick from the Dark Mechanicus where they were like, hey, steal
the Magnamata and infect what they have just so for like a bit of fun, we can see what
happens to them.
And then they're all like, being like, dad, why have I got seven hands and seven arms?
So yeah, basically, it does, to be fair, it does kind of make more sense out of how the
Alpha Legion treats their space marines.
It's just like completely expendable because they can just mass produce them.
But they really don't touch on it.
They might have an annual bonus, by the way.
Just realizing how many books it got left.
Yeah.
It's cause we have an endless element to this as well.
We're just gonna do this quick.
Yeah, this is an important one.
I will say, this one's an important one.
So if I put this in C for now, I'm gonna go for We.
No, no fear.
Discuss.
Boingob.
I would go for Winged Zone, whatever.
That's the title.
Boingob.
This is one of my favorite, whatever you call it.
Your Hale Boingob.
This is one of my favorite books.
Justify this.
I think it's so good.
I think it's okay.
So in terms of like how a novel is written, it's so well told.
So there's like a time scale as you go down it.
I think it made the ultramarines what they are today up until this.
The ultramarines are like the bland space marine that the poster boys normally likes.
And then Dan Avernett gave them so much personality in this novel.
The word bearers are like properly evil bastards, which is like the best way to write them from
my point of view.
And in Snowfitter in it, like literally the Ruinstorm is created in this novel.
It's yeah.
Cow's a baby.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Sorry.
This is a Hale-o-Garde.
It's really good.
And you get like little perspectives that Dan Avernett does.
There's one thing he does really well is he tells his stories from multiple perspectives.
So you get like word bearers and ultramarines who are like really close friends and how
it affected them all the way up to like Gillamund and Lorgaard and then a bunch of stuff in
between.
And you get like badass moments.
Like the cover out there is Gillamund actually in space.
I was about to say, how do you get Noah Hellman in it?
This is the famous quote.
This is one of the books personally I enjoyed the most from the heresy I think.
I did like this one.
Again, I feel like the only reason it didn't hit me as hard as this one is because I think,
I like the 40k ultramarine stuff, but I much more prefer like in this bit, like the word
barrier aspect of it.
Like I genuinely like, not saying I'm evil, but the flawed characters are always much
more interesting.
And I think particularly with Gillamund, I prefer more for later stuff where he's like
actually like, oh my, how much are like, you know, there's like reconciling the actual
like, oh, the heresy has like ruined us in this many ways.
He's just angry, a bit too angry.
He's just angry in this one though.
Which to fair, I was reading, I'm just finishing up like the dark and pure like God blight
plague war stuff.
It's the second book where he just, at the end of that book, he just literally yells
so loud.
Like all the people go like, wow, I didn't know Gillamund's vein could throb like on
his neck.
So horrible.
Next one, Andy, what's the word?
Oh, sorry.
I don't want to overrule you guys.
If you don't want to put it in, yeah.
No, boing.
We'll leave it.
Primarch's anthology as well.
Boing.
Just leave it there.
Fear to tread.
Do you have to read 20 books to get to the first blood angels?
They were in the first book as well, to be fair.
So they were like, we'll give them a little bit.
So we'll wait 20 books.
That's the first third of the Horus heresy.
There's 40 more books.
This is pretty good.
So Horus has sent the blood angels like far away.
Basically the Horus recognized the blood angels, the dark angels and the ultramarines is like
the big problems.
So he was like, let's send them far away so they won't be involved like Istvan, because
they just have very large legions and Sanguinus is a badass.
And this is where Sanguinus finds out about the heresy.
There it's one of my favorite scenes in the heresy.
Erebus gets literally flayed at the end by Horus.
Yeah, fantastic.
Yeah, the first instance of Sanguinus and Carbanda.
There's a part where Sanguinus gets knocked out and he has to be woken up.
And yeah, Carbanda's like, how are you alive?
He says, my sons found me and that line goes so hard.
I did not do it justice.
But yeah, great.
I don't know if I'd put it like Esther or anything.
A or B?
Better than Descent of Angels, surely.
Yeah, better than Descent of Angels.
Now I'm looking at it, I feel like Descent of Angels is too high.
Yeah, definitely better than Descent of Angels.
That better?
Yeah, I think that's better.
I would say Fulgrim above the Fear to Tread, but yes, it's tough.
Oh yeah, for sure.
I will say that I really enjoy Meros from the Dark Angel stuff.
And also a fun fact, there's a start, it's called Eli, Eli Janus, who sacrifices himself
during Cygnus Prime and he's a captain.
And he's like, oh, all our buddies are going mental.
And he fights demons and he dies.
Bless And he shows off how he's read every single Horus here.
Seriously.
Well, I've listened to a lot.
Shadows of Trechory.
This is another anthology, isn't it?
Yeah.
It's actually got some good ones in it.
But again, I think you'll put it in the anthology because we've got to get a move on.
Angel in Common, Angel's Exterminates.
Good fun.
It's also the same vibe of Fulgrim.
I wouldn't reread this book, but I did in, like, it was cool.
So good moments, some shattered legions.
I think Beat is good for that.
Yeah, I think just leave it there, Andy, it's fine.
I guess as well, if you're like brand new to 40k, this is like your first proper ascension
to demonhoods, which is like, oh, pretty exciting.
Elder lore in this one.
I like as well how it's not just like, oh, it's loyalists versus traitors.
It's shattered loyalists versus traitors versus traitors because the traitors aren't happy
with working together.
It's like the most stern, no-nonsense legion with the, we like to inject several substances
into our faces.
I could only mention one scene, which is when Fulgrim appears before Portorabu and they
have like a whole, like, you know how they have carnival in Brazil?
They have a carnival, I don't know, there's people tied to chains crawling and then like
Fulgrim's wearing a dress.
Fulgrim gets shot in the head in this book, right?
Yeah, Nikona shoots him in the face.
And then, you will fall in love with Sharakin from this novel.
And Sabik is like, nice shot.
Everyone's like Nikona, I'm like, Sabik, he's my boy.
And Lucius the Eternal dies.
And the one is always made.
So like, you know, it's a lot of big air.
It's a good one for Lucius haters.
And there is that legendary line about paraphrasing Fulgrim's like, Perti, I'm actually way better
than you in superior.
And then Perti's like, yet I'm the one holding the hammer.
Smack.
Yeah, yeah.
Perti shows off his pedigree as a no-nonsense primer.
Well, this is the book where Portorabu is it killed?
Is this the one where Angron catches a titan foot?
Betrayers put Betrayer right next to First Heretic because they are like a sort of one
follows on to the other.
Honestly, this is better.
But I really want to.
It also has probably the coolest.
It's so good, Eli, what are you doing?
You love Lorgar.
So really, Joel Book, Angron, basically at the end, oh sorry, it's not really spoilers,
but Angron, this is his ascension to demonhood.
Quite enjoyable, again, the end of the Argol Tal sort of storyline, really enjoyable, but
I honestly would just say go read it.
There's so much that goes on in this one.
First Heretic Betrayer.
Honestly, I want to put it here.
Just because, hear me out, you've got Angron's ascension, you've got Gilliman fighting two
traitor primarchs, you've got the whole, the thing with like Argol Tal's betrayal by Erebus.
There's so many really biting moments in the narrative.
Erebus gets beaten up again.
He does, but there's nice conclusions to arcs, there's nice fun stuff that goes on.
And also there's a lot of like we were saying, the bit where Angron stops a titan from flattening
Lorgar, and then there's the bit where Gilliman's fighting Lorgar and Angron and he beats Lorgar
and then Angron stops him from being killed.
And then as a repayment, Lorgar's like, Humana, Humana, Humana.
And then he like ascends Angron with the blood of Nuceria, the world he was made a slave
on to become a demon.
And the betrayal of the psychos of the world eaters trying to like, oh, no, this is a bad
and trying to stop Lorgar from turning him.
There's so many good moments in this book.
I'm happy to leave it there.
If you can put Horus Rising next to it then.
I think that would deserve it.
That's fair.
I get love in Betrayer.
You do probably feel for Angron as well.
It's a bit on the way to Nuceria, I think it is, where Angron finally starts to kind
of connect with his sons, like a little bit.
He starts to hang out with them.
Yeah, hang out with them.
They actually write the whole book.
And then of course, Erebus has him ascend to demonhood.
Sorry, not Erebus, Lorgar.
And it's one of those things that is wonderful, 40K, that you can read it both ways in terms
of how you view Lorgar in this novel, because he does basically save Angron's life, because
Angron is essentially dying in this novel from the Butcher's novels.
The whole premise is that he's going to save his life.
And also I like the whole characteristic of it.
It's literally the two runs of the emperor's son's litter.
It's like the two most disrespected and unlikable Primarchs as far as they're...
These are the two that no one really likes.
It's like, oh, they're my favorites within the band of brothers, shall we say.
They're like, oh, it's the weak one and the mental one.
And near the end, there's a mutual...
At the beginning of the story, they're like, I don't like you, you don't like me.
And by the end, there's a mutual like, oh, you ain't so bad after all.
By the way, Angron, check this out.
And then Angron's like...
And then he becomes a demon Primarch.
And yeah, it's a fun story.
What's the...
Mark of Calp.
It's another filler.
It's okay, it's quite enjoyable, I'd say, is Anthology.
It's higher than Shadows of Treachery, higher than Primarchs, lower than Age of Darkness.
Okay, fine.
Vulcan lives in some detail.
It's the best of the Nick Kynes ones, in my opinion.
I enjoyed this one.
I'm not saying much.
Can the Salamanders go to the other two?
Should we just do that now?
Hold on, let's go through this.
Where are the other Salamanders?
Describe all the Vulcan ones and...
Yeah.
Can we alter it?
I've got the Lord of Earth in my mind, unmerged.
Like the...
Can you put Damnation of Pythons in there?
Because that's like the bottom of the bottom of the bottom.
That's like the worst Horrors of Heresy book.
It's terrible.
I can't remember any of those.
Man, cutting out four books in one spell sweep and see all that is...
Jaws is really crazy.
They're all by the same author, I think.
I poured Nick Kynes.
Yeah, look at that.
Nick, Nick, Nick.
I will say...
I've listened to his Knights of Macragge recently.
And I was like, it's fine, but it just didn't grip me.
I was like, this is never like...
I know someone earlier was like, Graham McNeil has overrated my...
I like Graham.
My favorite author is James Swallow.
But it's like, there's never a book where I'm like, he got me with that one.
It's always like, it was fine at best.
Just saying, what was his?
Chris wrote about it.
Should we just put the anthologies in the filler?
Like, as we...
Yeah.
What have we got left?
There's a betrayal.
Can I just say, because I thought of this earlier, right?
And how you were talking about those covers and you were like, oh, those cover arts are
like a bit misleading.
The next book, Unremembered Empire, is like the most...
Sanguineous is barely in this novel.
It is very click-based from Dan Amnett.
Well, he probably didn't do it, but...
A War Without End is another filler.
White Scar on the front cover goes in the top.
And also, I really enjoyed the stories about Tagutai and about his origin.
So I'm going to put that at the top of the...
Eye of Terror is another filler.
Eye of Terror, yeah.
Yeah.
They all have probably one good one.
I'm like, oh, I did like...
The thing is, War Without End has some good bangers.
That's good.
Korax, that's another anthology.
Yeah.
Silent War.
Korax are quite like...
Talon, I did quite like...
Silent War's really good, though.
Top middle.
Where's Silent War?
I can't see it.
Top middle.
Oh, yeah.
You're like, top middle.
I'm like, I can't see.
Top middle.
Shattered Legions is technically an anthology.
Burden of Loyalty is an anthology, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
Don't worry, not much longer, Colin.
Heralds of the Siege.
Heralds of the Siege is...
I like how it focuses on the champions of chaos, so I'm going to put it higher.
Because there's a bit Tifos, there's a bit of Valhalla.
Where do we put...
Slaves of Darkness is also an anthology.
No, it's not.
That one's the re-unified.
No, I said re-unified.
But Garrow is exceptional, and so I'm not putting an un-infamous C tier.
Shattered Legions is technically an anthology, although that one is enjoyable.
And Talon, I actually quite like Talon.
Talon's pretty fun.
Talon is really...
Boing up tier, Talon.
Iron Warriors get fucking wrecked because...
Ten million tanks.
They forget that space marine armor doesn't mean anything if you're in a tank.
Ten million tanks.
I think that's the rest of them, and they're fine.
Cool.
I don't know about Ember Empire.
Fun stuff.
I enjoy it.
I feel like I'm the only person who rates this one quite high.
I would put this in near full group.
Yeah, I was thinking the same.
It's not the best.
Because weirdly it covers so much, but the Lion, Gilliman part at the start, the first
half of the book is a bit of a...
It all happens towards the end.
Conrad Curse is there.
But weirdly, this book is like five Primarchs.
It is Gilliman, Sanguineous, Lion, Vulcan, and Curse, and they all get...
It's all pretty important stuff for them, even Sanguineous.
But it also hurts my heart because technically in some regard it's filler because they needed
to occupy these Primarchs whilst they're not heading to Wall's Tower.
But it is important.
It is important.
Vulcan gets cured, kind of.
Yeah.
Or dead.
I appreciate that.
I was going to say...
Were you trying...
I was like...
We have a donation, is all I was trying to say.
She's from Donkeyman USA.
And it says, the Unremembered Empire otherwise known as Conrad Curse's excellent adventure.
It sounds like a fun book to me.
Thank you for the five dollars.
It's like, you'll never guess, guys, but I've got a bunch of booby traps and I'm going to
set them off and run away.
It's like, good idea, Conrad.
I've turned my frog into Home Alone with Gore.
But I appreciate...
I'm sorry.
From the conceptual level, I appreciate that Warhammer, even 40k, is 50 different history
references stacked on top of each other in a trench coat.
I appreciate this is the Byzantine Empire's time to shine.
It's Gilman forming the successor to the Imperium around the most successful portions of it.
It's a nice little Eastern Roman Empire in space.
And is this the one where it's the...
Sorry, I was just a small thing.
Is this the one where it's Lyon says, Robute, if you pester me anymore, I will punch you
in your...
I will theoretically punch you in your practical face.
Is that where this is from?
That's a great line.
I'm going to put it above the program for that.
I will say the Dantioch Pollock scene against Curse is so good.
Great scene.
He's shouting out from another device, he goes, dodge left, turn right, because he can see
the shadow.
From another planet.
He can sense the evil intent of Curse.
So he knows when he's about to strike and he says to Dantioch, dodge left, move.
Vulcan, there's a bit where Curse goes for Gilman's mother, his mother, his mcragmire.
And then Vulcan just like out of nowhere just takes him out.
I know we all tend to shit on the space walls, but also Fafnir blood brother and his men
defending Gilman and being like, oh, we're not going to let this crazy guy and like most
of them die apart from Fafnir and he gets injured.
And he's like, we're here to censure Gilman.
And that's one of the things, people always shit on the space walls, but it's like, look,
when they're good, they're really good.
And they were like, we're going to lay down our lives to protect Gilman and we're not
letting this crazy guy get to you.
And then Vulcan comes and is like, John's scene, I'm going to kill you, T'Rasha.
And then Vulcan goes, are you sure about that?
And then he like wrecks his stuff.
And he steals Gilman's ceremonial armor.
And then just immediately like, what's the phrase?
He like spear tackles Kers out of a window and they start falling down and smacking each
other.
And Kers is just like, why won't you die?
It's like, oh, the bit where he like, just one last bit, he stabs like Vulcan with his
two lightning claws.
He's like, I've got him.
And then Vulcan goes and his breathing awake.
Like, oh, god damn it.
One bit about this book that I did, like, it's always so like weird to me is the bit
right at the start with the Alpha Legion and their attempt to assassinate Gilman.
So these 10 Alpha Legionnaires just put on ultramarines armor, including Thiel.
Thiel is like an ultramarine that Gilman gets along with very, very well.
And they supposedly just make it past all of these ultramarine securities without removing
their helmets or doing any like checks to find out that they're Alpha Legionnaires.
They get into a room with Gilman, Oz Gilman and Armored.
It's basically the Captain America scene in the elevator.
And interestingly, it came out a year before the Captain America movie came out.
And he gets like a bolt of shot and he's like, shrugs it off like, no, it's no problem.
Don't worry about it.
Yeah, the Fafnir is so good.
Fafnir is so funny.
There's a bit, I think, towards the start when Gilman's like healing and he's like,
Fafnir is like, yeah, we're here to, we're here basically to check if you've, you know,
become a traitor.
I'm going to kill you if you're a traitor.
Make sure you're not going to be a traitor.
And Gilman goes, basically, it's like, well, not to be rude, but can you guys kill me?
And Fafnir goes like, probably not.
And then straight afterwards, the lion appears and they're like, hey, we want an honor duel.
And then the lion goes, all right, I'll fight you.
And Fafnir is like, no, I'm not a pride man.
He's like, no, that's my terms.
And he actually fights Lion and Lion instantly like swats him.
And even like he tries to cut off Lion's head and Gilman himself is like, wow, I didn't see that coming.
And even though the lion easily beats up Fafnir, it's a thing of honor.
And Fafnir is like, yeah, you got me.
And it's like, I love him.
He's a good character.
Also the step up to a prime mark.
It's proven that the Gilman is the 5'11 to the lion's six foot.
Because he's a little bit taller, just a little bit taller.
And hey, it's a very relevant book for 40k nowadays.
So definitely recommend reading this one if you haven't.
Oh, we already know where Anne is going to put this one.
There we go.
Next.
We will say why that we think Skars should be in the top of Boying Gob.
Because Jaggedeye is in it.
Yeah, it's actually it is like a really good book.
It is fantastic.
It's like the Skars are so interesting as a chapter.
It's like as a chapter as a legion and very interesting chapter too.
But like, yeah, the Skars have like their own little civil war.
Like it's very interesting and Jaggedeye can't actually is smart and he like debates in his head.
Should I get into heresy?
When Leman's like, hey, I'm in a war with the Alpha Legion.
Do you want to give me a hand?
He's like, I'm going to figure out what's going on first before I go in the deep end.
Like chill.
It's nice.
If everyone's getting into like reading heresy books, this is one of the few ones where like a lot of them are like very separate from like they're kind of their own thing.
I don't like that.
But it's actually like a very I recommend like for beginners as well.
Just just straight up go for this book because then you get to enjoy a really well written legion, well written storyline.
And it just ties up neatly and then it goes on to another novel that's enjoyable.
Yeah, because the thing is, it's like it is involved with the horror heresy, even though it's not to a grand scale.
It's not like the big laser beam in the sky sort of story.
But it really does. It does all it checks all the boxes of like you get to understand the culture of the legion.
You get to understand a Primark in doing so.
You get to see the politics of the war as it unfolds.
You get some fun action scenes.
You get like it does everything perfectly.
We can't recommend it enough.
I think it's great.
It's great.
Why the save it for like a proper video so we can get into it at one point.
We'll have to wait for hours.
Vengeful spirit.
You know what?
I've read this one not that long ago.
I put it in the bottom of a bomb of one reason, which is just it suffers from the problem of a lot of other stories, which is, you know, good parts.
But then the sum of all of it is like I felt like the book was a little bit of a slog in terms of how the opposite of scars.
And like how you see.
Yeah, it's a very long book is the problem.
But it is does have an epic moments.
So there's an assassination attempt by the guy who just got a model.
I forgot his name.
The iron hand.
Shadrachmoshuson.
Shadrachmoshuson, which is really, really cool.
Great. Great Primarch movements taking a plane out of the sky.
You have the rebellion of House Divine is so one of my favorite parts of the heresy.
So good House Diviner, a night household who, these are their own video.
They are.
They're basically there.
There's one member of House Divine who should be in charge, but he's not.
He's been kind of treated shit by his family.
And eventually he kind of gets in charge of the house.
And then in the end, they turn on the emperor.
But when they charge into battle, they see themselves as like these legendary knights and they attack a monster.
But the monster is a loyalist titan, essentially.
And it is it is like pure horror, heresy.
This covers all the events of Molech, which is a very important planet, and Lupercalia, which is a city.
And near that is one of the three gateways into chaos.
And that was where the emperor went to do his bargain with the chaos gods.
And Horus does the same.
And then he came out. He was like, a lot of work to do.
Yeah. So it's essentially it's just the story of how horror is that like he was the warmaster and now he's champion of chaos at the end of this book.
Yeah, that's fair.
And there's a small bit where Galviel Logan, who we meet in Horus Rising, again, like most people, like a lot of people's very character.
He makes an appearance that we just give the middle finger to Horus at the end.
The basic is you're wrong. I'm right. Bye.
And they get sucked out into space. But yeah, again, I wouldn't read it again.
I wouldn't read this book again. But I did it. I was right.
I'd read chapters. But yeah, yeah.
What's the next one?
I mean, it's one of the saddest moments in 40K.
Lancioc, my boy.
Do you know where to put this? Top of B, but it's next to Unremembered Empire because essentially it's the continuation of the Unremembered Empire storyline.
I don't think you needed this book and Angels of Caliban. It's the thing.
I'm going to be harsh on that one a bit.
This one again, like there's lots of I just like this is the bit what makes me like Gilman so much is the storyline here. Gilman is just so cool in these novels.
They get this like there's a cool they actually like Faros beacon plot device thing.
Like I enjoyed it again. It's like all right. And then again, it has like one of the saddest.
It has like a nice like brotherhood relationship with the Iron Warrior Dantio.
It's the unlikely friendship.
Yeah, space man. I mean, it's all like he's like, what's going on?
And then his ultramarines are like, yeah, that old remain. He's been like sobbing.
So we gave him a blankie and he's still sobbing.
And then Gilman's like Pollux and then he's like, do your job.
But we're going to like make Dantio the first ever hero of the Imperium.
We're going to honor him and I'm going to help you to like avenge him because Gilman's a swell dude.
All right. Yeah. But again, I wouldn't I wouldn't read reread the novel, but I would.
I do like the I enjoy it as like the entire like sort of plot line of Imperium secundus.
So you get to a nice little thing at the end. You get to meet the Tyranids, which is very nice.
Yeah. Yeah. Bit of a miss. Bit of a wussy. Thanks, dudes.
What's the next one, Andy? The next one is Puff Heaven.
Hold on. I just put this.
This one is this is Conn. Glorious.
This is a glorious.
Weirdly enough, if you don't read a short story before this book, it kind of doesn't make sense because there's a short story where those.
Yeah. Mortarion just basically goes, ah, I'm a psycho.
That's horrible. But you know what? I'm not going to let the war control me. I'm a control it.
I'm going to start doing my own experimentation and then it'll be a answer to me.
And then that doesn't go. Yeah. Well, I don't even want to spoil this book because it's just so it's so good.
Which places that white scars have the best books in the horror.
But I'm not going to diminish that. They're fucking great. They're amazing. Read them.
They're amazing. Which book does he go to prosper in?
And then scars scars. Yeah. Yeah.
And he needs a Magnus and he's like best mates with Magnus and he's like, God, be honest, bro.
It's a bit cringe going chaos. And he's like, oh, but that is a bit.
And then they fight. And then there's like the fact that this is like a more tear.
You mean beginning of scars like the white scars legion has a ton of units there, like a fully stopped legion.
And by the path of heaven, they've been harassing the emperor's children, the sons of Horus and the death guard.
But because they've been fighting free legions, the free legions have been working together to be like, oh, we understand their tactics.
So by the time of the path of heaven, they are like heavily, heavily surrounded by free legions and they know all their tricks.
And my boy, Tagutai Yusuke, he dies and Shincha dies. And it makes me sad.
I can't talk about this anymore.
At the end of the book, he's like, all my friends are dead.
And it's like, yeah, exactly.
That happens in the old father.
That happens in the Seige's, his Seige Tera book too, doesn't it?
All of his buddies just die. And in his Primark book, all of his buddies died to the orcs.
Yeah, but then again, Seige Tera, Shiban Khan makes the Salamanders look bad by saving a guardsman and a baby.
And like running from like beyond the walls. But I've got a baby I must preserve.
And then he like takes them to the war and all the defenders are like, why? Why? Scars are the best.
I know. Right. By the way, we got a donation from Lutti McShootie, veteran of the channel.
Thank you very much for ninety nine dollars saying, are we going to get a reading of the epic of Boingot and discuss the religious reasons why eating a ball of pure life was the right thing to do?
It's only a sentence of law.
One day. We'll do a Boingot stream one day.
Next book, Angels of Caliban. As much as I like what it is in the Imperium trilogy, like sort of thing, this one is the bottom of B.
Yeah, I was going to say the bottom of B.
Just as in terms of like, there's a little bit of boringness to it, but there is some cool elements like the lion does crunk curse.
Yeah. But again, like it is like the whole novel is just basically waiting for that moment. And like it just feels like they're edging.
After the Shramis Crusade, Age of Darkness, Unremembered Empire, Pharoahs and then finally Angels of Caliban to see Curse get dealt with is so satisfying because he's just a fucking pain in the ass.
I definitely felt it was more like, thank God it's over. It's over rather than anything else after that.
The thing is like, yes, he's an amazing duelist and all that, but it's also like, yeah, your allegiance are relevant. Who cares?
Well, in Pharoahs, he's like, like, because he finds out that his allegiance was probably, he believes his allegiance was probably destroyed at Thramas and I think it was Sigrausa.
And he's like, I don't care. Like, they're all dead. They're all murderers and shit. He's genuinely happy to find out that they're probably all dead.
How many times does Curse fight Primorkin? How many times does he like completely win?
So he fights the lion twice. He fights Gilamon. He fights the lion with Gilamon. He fights Vulcan. He fights...
A couple of times.
Sanguineous.
And he fights Sanguineous.
Korax almost.
And he fights Korax.
Well, I have not.
He's like, I think Gilamon is for every time out other than Horus.
Other than Gilamon, Conrad has fought the most Primarks as far as I'm aware.
Does he win every time until this one?
No.
He's pretty good.
He's really good. He's like top three Primarks.
So Sanguineous is pretty much the Primark most commonly said to be the best fighter.
Although it does change. I think Corvus says it's Angron, but generally Sanguineous is up there.
And when Kurs and Sanguineous fight in Pharos, Sanguineous is like, oh, none of us will win this.
Because they'll both see the few...
Sanguineous isn't in his pajamas, but the reason given is because...
We're both playing chess, but we have an AI to make sure that we know what the next move is. Yeah, we're cheating.
The thing is like the Kurs also cheats, so that's not fair.
What's the next novel? It's Praetorian of Dawn.
Oh, cringe.
So, this entire book is just the author trying to bring home the point that the Alpha Legion is prideful.
That's the entire like 400 pages.
I can't even tell because I've just thought the other way, similar vein, but the opposite way really.
I kind of felt like it's like, oh my god, how amazing are the Alpha Legion? How amazing is it they planned all of this?
How amazing is it they got into the right cracks within Terra?
How amazing is it that they managed to evade Dawn? How amazing is it that they follow their orders perfectly?
So what's the point of all this?
And then they throw it away.
I just want to have a chat with Dawn. Why did you do this?
It's like, autumn of sin.
And it has the, you know how when, I don't want to move your story, the antagonist is talking to the protagonist and he's trying to sway him to his side,
but he's like extremely vague about it and won't say the one thing that he needs to say to convince the protagonist?
That's the Alpha, that's the Alpha Aries versus Dawn fight.
He's like, bro, trust me, bro, join me, bro, it's for your choice.
And Dawn says why. And Alpha Aries is like, well, well, well, well, well.
It's like, how could you? Who wrote this? What the heck?
I think the author.
She can sort of the score.
The author, to be fair, did do their best with the Alpha Legion rather than, like I see, the task is going to be done poorly, I think no matter what,
because again, it's like it always has to win. But the Alpha Legion in this, I just, I did it, it was like, there's certain aspects of it,
which is like, oh, that's actually kind of like, you know, enjoyable and neat. But I think it overall.
Dawn picking out Alpha Aries is a sick moment.
That happens in Legion, I think, not this one.
I think the underlying.
No, I'm picturing Dawn before they fight. When Dawn walks into the room and he sees Alpha Aries and two guys, he's like, you're Alpha Aries.
I kind of like the idea that behind the book, it's like, what if you had an unimpeachable morass of smoke screens versus an immovable object,
and that the immovable object still wins, because that's the thing.
So, oh, I'm going to attack you from all these avenues and blah blah blah. Yeah, but I'll still like nut you.
And that's kind of the idea of like.
What is enjoyable about this book though is the, just the Imperial First character called Archimus.
I just liked him as a solid space marine. Like, it's one of the things about him.
Archimus first.
He's a space marine character who wasn't like ego driven or just like some regular bloke.
I think there's two. There's Archimus and there's Archimus two. Archimus two, technically, because then Archimus three is at the end of the book, if you know what I mean.
And he becomes the Lord Commander of the Siege of Terra.
But yeah, put this one in bottom of sea to be fair.
I think it shows. It is like must read, because it's death of the Primarch.
And I will say it is death of the Primarch.
But it's death of the Primarch.
The chapter after Alpha Aries dies is Omegon going, oh, I can feel that Alpha Aries is dead.
So I felt a disturbance in the force.
Master of Mankind, Boyn Gob.
Boyn Gob. So Boyn Gob.
Boyn Gob. Boyn of my, sorry, Boyn of my goblets.
What's it there?
No, it's next to Scars.
It's next to Scars.
Honestly, I got more out of Betrayer than I did Master.
Master of Mankind, it is literally, it's one of the few things that actually gets you.
It's just poor. It's just poor hammer boyn.
Master of Mankind is like, oh, the Master of Mankind did Mastering.
And it's like, yeah, obviously.
Whereas this has some fun twists.
This is like, oh yeah, cool.
This is the must read of the entire Voltaire series.
Alex, have you had this conversation before where cool people being in a book doesn't make it a good book?
The problem is when they're this cool.
When it's this cool, it's so hard.
I'm totally willing to call it.
I cannot fairly evaluate this novel.
If it was written terribly, I probably wouldn't be able to tell, but I'm pretty sure it is.
I'm pretty sure it's actually good.
It follows mostly the Webway war with the custodians and the Sisters of Silence.
And a few like-
Zephon from the Blood Inches.
Yeah, and a few like extra mercenary people in it.
That is, again, like the combat in this book is the best combat of the entire Horrors Harry.
The bit where they would describe how the custodians with their spear, they move so fast.
And when they're out of ammo, they ram it into the ground, unleash their dual swords while servitors reload it.
And then they quickly sheath and like pick it up.
The actual combat in this one is unmatched.
And then obviously the Emperor arriving in the Webway is literally like the sun.
The sun arrives.
It's also, I remember in the epilogue of this book, it's really satisfying because I think it's in the epilogue you put this,
where he talks about how he didn't actually like invent any of the Emperor law for this.
What he did is like pull all these different sources of the Emperor's law and turn it into this novel.
And it becomes like the go-to novel for what we know about the Emperor today.
And I just thought that is so wonderful.
Let's go to this one, go to the next one, Andy.
What's the next one is the Crimson King.
Oh, God.
Yeah, it's just a this.
This is the only novel I actually I thought I couldn't follow at one point.
Like I didn't know what was happening.
What a quick fall from grace.
I think even Graham McNeill, who's the author of this, who's written a lot of good Warhammer books.
He does a lot of good stuff.
He even said he really struggled to write this book.
This book is essentially the Thousand Suns messing about in the Hell of Heresy doing nothing.
They're looking for the shards of the soul.
And Lucius is being like, I want to find you what's his name?
And he's like, no.
One's on a boat, one's in a river.
Like honestly, I almost struggled.
I didn't know what was happening at one point.
I was like, huh?
Especially what happened on the planet of sorcerers.
Yeah, like this is SideQuest, the book.
You've played Skyrim's main quest 80 times.
Go on some side stuff.
Lucius is it.
This is the book I was going to mention.
Lucius Eternal is randomly with the Thousand Suns in this book because he's trying to duel one of the Thousand Suns.
I'd be like, hey, bro, you want to duel now?
Wait, wait.
And the duel master is like, I can literally see into the future.
That's why I'm so good at dueling.
And Lucius is like, do you want to fight?
Yeah.
And he's like, no.
Donation by Leon Leon.
Thank you, brothers.
Conrad Curse will make Fulgrim cry like a little bitch because I don't know Curse could win, but I like trigger people like a good night.
Nightlord fans cannot comprehend Conrad Curse losing a fight.
I mean, the thing is I was on a Star Wars Anonymous, Shadow of Two, a Star Wars Anonymous, and I was having a discussion with Red beforehand about how like he was coping so hard that like the Dark Angels are just better than the Nightlords.
And it's like I get underdogs, Nightlords, but like the Dark Angels are way better.
And every time every chance they get, they crunk the Nightlords.
So they killed two thirds of the Nightlords Legion, was it?
Yeah.
And it's like you can't deny.
I mean, when your thing is to kill unarmed civilians that are weaker than you, you're kind of like...
The runt of the Little Legion.
And that's saying something considering the word bearers.
Come on.
It's also not why I like the Nightlords.
I never, I would never like the Nightlords because of their prowess.
It's just they're just very interesting and fantastic characters.
I don't want to like sabotage.
I would say sabotage, like arguably the best swordsman, Beat Sigismund.
Just saying, just saying.
He's cool.
Totally legitimate.
We have another donation.
Hey, a dub is a dub.
From Maine Even TV.
Sorry, I'm freaking out right now.
Okay, thank you.
Yo boys love the show.
A question that will derail the conversation.
What is there an archetype you believe is missing from 40k factions?
For example, what elves?
Yeah, what elves would be the exodites?
If only they had more than two pages of lore.
I remember someone in my comments in a post I made the other day said they want to see exodites before Emperor's Children.
And if I knew that person in real life, they would have gotten a stern talking to me.
But they're right.
Bro, they have two pages of lore.
Can we make, can we give the regular factions codexes before we make new ones, please?
No.
Oh my gosh.
We need more leagues of Otan.
I kind of want to just see a little guys like faction.
You know, you got the Watchers in the Dark.
You got like the small, the small boys.
I just want to see small kings.
Short kings, legion please.
I think that was supposed to be the Tao and then they fell into the Mecha trap.
And then they became like blue cow-hooved weeaboos.
The thing is, I know what you mean.
I'd quite like, I feel like the setting would work really well if we had two more factions.
Because like you say, Colin, the Tao have now become this like alien conglomeration, which is cool within its own right.
But like just two more smallish Xenos factions that aren't like galaxy ending threats.
They're just kind of like out in the outer rim doing their thing.
And yeah, just, they're just cool in their own right.
Donation by Lutti McShootie, who says to piss off the Eldar player in the room.
Do you think that rush to accidentally save Isha from a certain jar?
Or would it be funny if Commander Farse?
I beg of you, let the Eldar have something.
Please let someone else not interrupt their story.
Here's the crux of this, Colin.
If the Space Wolves saved Isha and then they had a collaborative element, would you be mad?
Because you're like, Isha, you would.
Okay.
Horrible.
Can we talk about the bugs again?
Yeah, next novel.
Ruin Storm.
I like Ruin Storm.
It is good.
Witty enough, it has the worst cover art.
Again, it's one of those things where, yeah, I love how they changed the lion's hair color because they're like, oh, we've just made three blonde primers.
It looks like Dog the Bounty Hunter. What's going on?
I think again, you kind of have to have read Herald of Sanguineous or you're like, who the fuck is this guy?
The Herald of Sanguineous that keeps popping up.
But that's not Askelon.
As for point.
What officially is?
No, it's not Askelon.
Askelon is not the Herald of Sanguineous.
Askelon crowns the Herald, well, makes the Herald of Sanguineous.
He's also not Alatron, before anybody says.
That's just what the wiki says.
Yeah, it's a short story.
It's very good.
It takes you through.
And yeah, but outside of it, it's very good and takes you real throwback to the start of the heresies.
They go to Davin.
Where Horus was corrupted.
There's only there's one bit in it, which I think the author got to throw into this book, which is nowhere else.
Like, I don't know if people would ever mention it, but when they arrive at Davin, it's surrounded by like a boat.
First of all, the scale in this book is just a very quick few things.
They meet like a wall.
All the ultramarines, dark angels and blood angels, they're in their fleet.
They're trying to get it to Terra.
They meet like a wall of chaos energy and like flesh and stuff.
And it's like it looks like it expands the entire galaxy.
And they're like, what the hell is that?
It's just a warp construct thing to stop them from getting through.
They actually have to land on it and see to tower.
And they eventually get past that to then something called like called the graveyard of something.
But they arrive at Davin and it's surrounded by the graveyard, like the bones, like ossified ships, like Eldar ships from the fall.
It's around by the basically this is the death and like bones of every civilization that's ever died.
And they go like, what the hell is this thing? And it's like ever expanding.
And they finally arrive on Davin. And then suddenly things goes collapses in on itself and it's all rushing towards Davin.
Weird stuff in this book that people forget about.
But very enjoyable. And then Gilman Sanguin gets dragged into the warp for a little beat up.
And then Gilman and the lion start attacking architecture to get it.
That's basically the novel. That's it.
I really enjoy it though.
I would say as well, all you fans of the Sanguinis falling to the Black Rage theory that unfortunately never came about in the end of the death.
But if you like that theory, this is the book for you.
This is the book where Sanguinis actually falls to the Black Rage and it is a pretty epic scene.
I'm happy where it is on the tier list though, because that's.
Yeah, I wouldn't say. Yeah, I wouldn't say it's for the best.
I can't put it higher or lower.
Yeah, it was it was like it had to be done type thing.
Yeah, but it was I liked that book a lot.
I like Wolfsbane. Wolfsbane. I like this one.
Quite enjoyable book.
Fantastically written. Makes no fucking sense.
They have to come up with a reason as to why Leman Ross is not at the Siege of Terror.
And this is the book. But it does how it's written and like the going back to Fenris and the stuff with Bjorn and all that kind of thing is so is genuinely fantastic.
Belisarius is cool. Great. Love it.
But like the plot line makes no fucking sense.
I just like I like that the wolves doing something and they're like, we're going to put the runes and we're going to put them in this and then the knights are and get involved.
Any any book that the knights aren't are involved in like that's my boys and his copium for the knights are.
I haven't read them. They do a good job. They have the best as far as like the best as Garvey or being like, oh, and always like, come on, come back.
He's like, no, dad and Garrow with that's in our eventual spirit.
Yeah, yeah, but it's a continuation of their story arc.
Like Knights Errant are the best. We love them. They're around. What's the next one?
The next one is slaves to darkness. We're going to rally at Ullinor and then do a hammer blow.
You know what? Again, this one, I think top of B, because it's the same problem of cool scenes.
I wouldn't reread the book kind of low key for getting.
Yeah, that's what you're saying. Yeah, no, that's fair. Yeah. Basically, again, it's like we're getting towards the end of the heresy and they're like, oh shit.
We need to go get anger on Fulgrim.
And then Perderabin somehow like gets anger on in demon form. It's like do as you're told.
You know what? It's not better than Fulgrim. So put it below Fulgrim in the list. But I think that's that's fair.
Next one to go to left Titan.
Hey, Titans.
It's like it's like the last like big battle before the siege of terror.
And it's pretty cool. You get sanguineous doing epic stuff.
Khan's there, I think.
Is this the one where he ganks a Titan with his spear?
He does that.
Yeah, is in.
Yeah, I want to say Warhawk, but I'm not actually sure on that.
I should have thought it might be earlier on.
Where would you put it in the list?
Yeah, I think telling how strongly you feel about it.
It's not filler because I think it is like a pretty, pretty important part.
Yeah, I would say B tier. I think maybe maybe above Angels of Caliban.
Yeah.
And then the last one.
Here's the thing. They have Knight's Errand in this one. So I'm going to put in A tier just as a whole.
It's a good book.
It's a great book.
This is, weirdly enough, I don't know why they waited this long for this book to be in.
Why is this the last siege of terror book?
I think it's because it's Grey Knights. This book leads into the creation of the Grey Knights.
And so I get what you mean because it's like it's kind of like a Death Guard origin because this is one of the big retcons of the heresies.
They have Mortari and Ascend before the siege so they can have all four human Primarchs that are specific to one God at the siege.
And so they wanted to do that with Garrow's story, which was going to be connected to the Knight's Errand story, which is the Grey Knight story.
And the Grey Knight story is really big. So they wanted to put that last, which ends up by Connection making the Mortari and Ascension story the final book.
If that makes sense. But yeah, it's kind of odd. Titan Death is more like, oh, after the Titan Death is over, it's like in the final frontier is terror.
It's a strange book because it's like I understand that they want to have the Grey Knights ready and it makes sense to have a parallel between here is Garrow, who's like the most important character, arguably in the whole Horus Heresy series and his Legion of Origin.
But it is a strange way to end it, shall we say. And Typhus just being like, I'm going to be sneaky and make it worse.
It is fun though, to be fair.
It's a really good book, but it's just a strange way to end it.
For the people who don't like Mortarion, it's because you haven't read this book.
And when you finish this book, you won't like him.
Because the book is interspersed, I'm pretty sure, with the stuff on Barbarus, as Typhus and Mortarion kind of do their rebellion.
And so it made me feel much more about their relationship.
Because before then I was like Typhus or Typhon is just like a bastard. But actually, he is a bastard, but he is in such a way I actually started to feel for Mortarion a bit, which is kind of interesting.
And I will say as well, this book is one of those books where it's not epic like Master of Mankind is epic, but it's epic in minor, smallish ways.
Like you have Sisters of Silence talking, and you find out why Malkador is actually pretty fucking evil, and all these kind of things that really stick with you, if that makes sense.
But it's not like Sanguine has taken that time.
I'm pretty happy with the list though. My life has led to this moment.
I was worried we were going to have too much in this test, but that's really interesting.
Colin, do you think you actually have... I love Talon!
I love Colin. You were Abel!
Do you think out of all that list there Colin, would you pick any book you'd pick probably like to actually go into?
I would probably pick No No Fear.
Oh that's a good book. I like McGilliman.
Mechanicum is probably second place because it's mostly about the Mechanicum, and I don't need to do too much reading about Space Marines being Space Marines.
I guess for a third I'd probably pick... I can't... I don't even remember the name of it. The one with Corvett, Corus flying towards the cover looking all broody.
Deliverance Lost.
Not even because I think it's a good book. I just think it's like a rite of passage. You need to be disappointed by the Raven Guard at least once.
Yeah. I wish my Thousand Sons novels were better.
Probably Talon too, but again...
I'd be interested to see actually without the anthologies in it because they are just anthologies and whenever you get to one of them in the heresy you do just go...
Brody.
Because listen to the thing, we've said it like a couple of times, there are like random anthologies that you're like, oh this is actually really important.
Like you're like, oh if you don't read the anthologies you'll be like, sorry why is Curse with the lion? Why are these exactly?
So you do kind of have to read them, but they're not things you look forward to.
Has everyone seen that tier list thing where it shows you... it's the spread document of how to read the Horus heresy in the Order.
I have.
The massive like spreadsheet where it shows you like, do you want to follow a faction?
Yeah. That's a problem.
It's still not as bad as Marathon lore.
I can't even handle it.
Oh my god. I think that was a pretty long one to be fair though. I don't know if we've got... oh there's a siege of terror.
We've only got a siege of terror.
I've read one of these quarts, Colin.
So close.
It's only a little bit.
It's fine.
The first three, Solo War I can remember, the second two and three blend together a little bit for me, I'll be real with you.
D, D, there you go.
I remember Perth Rabo does his great play, which is to have a fucking idiot command the Dread Enforcers on.
What were the sons of Selenar? That one can go and see.
Yeah, it's not bad.
But why is it a siege of terror?
Sass 9, boing.
Just again, it's just fucking porn.
It's so... the kill teams, Dawn versus Fulgrim, just Dark Angels show up, spoilers.
It's just so good.
This is very much like youth.
We've got two donations.
Thank you.
So we've got Centurion Crunch for $19.99 saying, Ed, back on law crimes. Today is indeed ex a food day.
Andy, I think it would be poetic if you appeared as a VTuber instead of wearing the mask on Veeam.
How dare the... whoa.
Oh, and now it's been retracted. Fair enough.
Jeremy Golden for five pounds has said, kind of off topic, but would you guys ever do a painting contest between you?
I think we talked about that in the earliest days of law crimes ideas.
Yeah.
We'll see.
Do we get to use all the tools we have because I have an airbrush?
No, it would be brush and paintbrush.
Keep it raw.
It's all right, Howard. I glazed that.
Lots and lots of things, coats.
Here's what I made earlier.
That's Art Attack.
Fury of Magnus. I actually quite like this one.
Yeah, it redeemed Magnus a lot in my eyes.
Good dialogue.
I like Primarchs that love their sons. I'm just a sucker for it.
Is that one more?
Turing Crunch donated another $19.99.
Lower than Raphael.
Surely.
Typos. Love you guys.
Thank you, Centurion. Thank you very much.
What's the next one, Andy?
Mortis.
I'd say lower than Magnus.
Top of C.
Warhawk.
This is the only one I read and it was freaking awesome.
Best.
You know why it's the best, Evo?
Because it's got Jagatai and the White Star.
Yes, it does.
I would say the next five, I'd go Warhawk.
I can't say no.
They're just epic.
Garrow one.
I haven't read it yet.
I love Garrow.
I was worried that I wouldn't read it.
I'm with Andy.
I'm not saying that just for saying that.
I'm like, honestly, it's such a nice resolution where it's like,
there's no BS power level stuff.
It is a bit indulgent.
Pull yourself down the blade thing.
Because that happens in those top two novels up there.
That happens exactly the same.
But Garrow doesn't kill Mortarion.
He just has a dignified death.
And that's good.
I think that's a good point.
I think that's a good point as well.
It's how Garrow's story builds into this death really nicely.
It's a very beautiful ending.
Yeah.
And it's that whole thing of honor and valor and not being a silly
Billy.
Thank you.
Liam.
Culling name who says Colin is stuck in 30 K.
I'm going to have to say Colin.
We have revenge on the next one.
Echoes of eternity.
Okay.
That's the lowest I can feel.
And the volume too.
And the volume too, I feel maybe.
May I say from this point on.
I've seen this a couple of times.
Just cause the book's long.
I did feel like a bit of a slog.
I have not.
How could you have the dark King storyline and be reading through that
novel?
Be like.
This is a slow.
I'm still pretty inestimated.
I just think the other two are like.
The two are cream of the crop.
I was.
I was the end of the death.
Three is was the worst of the three in terms of like a novel.
But.
It's not deep.
Oh no. Sorry.
It's still a boing gob, but it's just the worst.
I was like, I had, I did have a little bit of disappointment in terms of.
It's like someone saying, I got everything that I wanted.
But I was like, I was.
You know, I ordered a dessert.
I got exactly what I wanted from the audit, but I was like,
Could they like maybe a bit of a sprinkle or something else on it?
That's just a personal thing.
I feel like everything.
In the end of the death volume.
Three was like.
It happened exactly as I thought it was going to happen.
And I did.
I did.
Twist.
Yeah.
No, I get what you mean.
And I respect that Abnet a lot for that.
Like I totally respect it.
Not doing something just stupid for the sake of it,
but I get what you're saying.
Oh, he started.
He can stop it.
What about.
And then death too.
And I would say weirdly.
Weirdly.
Within the death three, right?
So you know, I say Garrow's storyline kind of.
It all builds really nicely into his death.
Yeah.
Old person's storyline.
Like he has a storyline that takes him to that place,
but it's not like he's like,
Oh, I'm going to go to the end of the death.
Like, Oh, I'm going to go to the end of the death.
Yeah.
He's like,
Oh, I'm going to go to the end of the death.
Yeah.
And it's like,
It's like,
It's like the storyline that takes him to that place,
but it's not very natural.
I would find.
I would say, so for example,
his attitude towards the emperor just changes very quickly.
And he believes in the volume two.
And it turns around, comes back.
And it's like,
This is a very odd, it's a bit disjointed.
It's all it's almost like.
It's almost like.
They'd planned out maybe a different plot line and then.
Move things around.
I did think that perhaps they weren't playing tab.
It has three books.
It just went like for Colin, it went on too long.
I would put money that it was supposed to be two at most.
And GW went like,
Yes, but we're finishing the Horus heresy.
With this money train cannot end yet.
But are we?
We're not going to conclude it.
Maybe Dan Abnett was probably like,
I just got to, I've got to, you know what I mean?
Like he has to tie up 60 books worth of thread.
To be fair.
Can we give a shout out to Dan Abnett for not only like starting the series,
but also like having like millions of people with baited breath waiting on,
Hey, I know it's been 40 years of this.
Finish.
That's a big deal.
Yeah.
Sure.
I think as well.
One last thing, which is kind of,
I guess like the,
really the end of this whole thing is like,
I don't know how everyone's going to feel about this,
which is the fact that it's setting up a plot line that is now going to be
like, you know what I mean?
Like the whole book is set up a plot line in the,
like the Beck were novels as well.
So it's, it's kind of this end of the siege of terror.
It's set up a 40 K timeline plot, which is like, Oh, so now I have to like,
I definitely felt like I wanted a bit more of like a, it's over.
We did it boys.
And then, no, you know, you know,
the scattering of whatever can happen is fine.
But just, I wish it was a bit more, it's over.
I don't like, because again, 40 K got a bit of a problem of like,
but the settings always happening.
You know what I mean?
Like it, but it's not over yet.
So.
Well, I mean, all right, to be fair on that one.
And I'm going to take a rare stance to defend the Horus hair.
This is a prequel.
There's 10,000 years more of in the future.
Stuff kind of needs to still be happening because if it ended clean,
you'd be like, well,
So where's 40 K coming to this?
I get what you're talking about.
Cause I also think we're not used to games workshop,
putting story at the forefront of these settings.
Outside of just making a MacGuffin and then being like,
this could come up in the future.
But actually like, like, like these books are the end of the volume.
Three with Lily and chase with a Constantine Valados attitude change
with Aberdon, like with a Nuncia, like,
it was the amount of links between that book and Beckwith.
It is like fucking thought out.
He is clearly planned this down well.
And that is actually impressive.
And not to be funny, like what,
whatever fandom has the ability to say, Oh,
we only got 10 books this year.
We're really spoiled as far as a,
as far as a fandom goes.
And like, there are so many talented authors who've worked with the black
library and games workshop.
And yeah, obviously when the highs are highs and the lows are lows.
Yeah.
But like there's some really good quality stuff.
I also think that people are way too hot.
Like I think the reason the end of the death to people so harshly,
like I think people were just harsh on books because they're the nature of
them is something.
So it's the same with like fall of Kadia.
There are just a lot of characters in that book and there's a lot that has
to happen in the novel.
It like, it's just a lot.
It is a lot to get to, but like, given that that's an immovable object,
it is phenomenally well done.
And like, yeah, the actual,
the things that you,
the things that you could like really cut out is actually not a lot.
If any book was going to be like, Oh,
could we actually get a little bit more?
I would say, give me a little bit more.
The reason I would say three is a little bit worse is because like the way
they kind of move so quickly after Horace
falls, like was pretty shocking to me.
And like that, that was a bit surprising, but yeah,
like generally I was like, give me more.
Yeah.
I do it.
I was, I bet my complaints are minor because it's still like no other
franchise quite hits as hard as like that.
And like someone who has read,
if you, I don't read every single Horace Heresy book or my novel,
you know what I mean?
But just like, like from the, from Horace rising to now,
whole the, you know what I mean?
It's like, is there one here read anything from like Brandon Sanderson,
Stormlight Archive.
And like the Horace Heresy has the same vibe as that author where it's like,
man, I just wanted like, I want to see my family and like see my kids,
but the law and the novel's being dropped right now.
Yeah.
But I think, I think that's a good place to like, sort of,
is everyone happy with that tier this far?
Is everyone happy with the conclusion there?
I think we've had, we've had nearly two and a half hours of poor
Horace Heresy.
Wow.
Yeah.
We were talking.
Four sisters.
I only have two final remarks.
Paul Collin who has suffered.
The Fulgrum book should have been an S tier.
Thank you.
Because it sets up Eldred's most important characteristic.
Which is he gets a whole, he gets a whole lot of Eldar killed,
goes home to Ulthwe and gaslights everyone into thinking this was the
correct choice of action.
Which shows up a little bit in the end of death volumes.
And other than that, I'd like to make fun of it.
I don't think the Horace Heresy, I don't think is bad because if it was
bad, we've got 60 fucking books out of it.
Yeah.
I mean, and to be honest, it is, it is the thing to this day.
There's a big difference between Age of Sigmar and 40K.
Collin, you might have noticed.
And in terms of popularity, Age of Sigmar is still very far from
catching up.
This is the difference is the Horace Heresy is genuinely like,
one of the things I say about 40K is that it has,
I'm doing a video on Leto at the moment.
And what I think I say about 40K is it has no right to be as good as it is.
Like Leto is like a joke.
This is just a ridiculous joke where like the first ever space marine made
was called LE2.
And Dan Abnett went, lol, I'll make that a character.
And it's genuinely an epically important character that does so much.
And it's just kind of like, how is this so good?
This makes no sense.
Like if you look at the naming of 40K, the naming is so well over the place.
And then you have like five books called Slaves to Darkness.
It's just crazy.
One of them is a fantasy book.
Yeah, it's genuinely great.
It's so amazing that we are spoiled.
Are you telling me you don't like your iron hands leading your iron hands to have iron hands?
Yeah, exactly.
I think that extent like the Horace Heresy itself too,
like isn't the Horace Heresy as a concept only exists?
Because early in GW's history, they wanted to sell boxes,
but they only had space marine sculpts.
Well, why are we selling a kit that's one arm?
Make the best of a bad situation.
You're like, well, okay, Civil War.
What can we do with this?
And then what they can do with this is 80 books.
I have to say though, thank you so much everyone who was along with us on that journey.
If you made it again, we should always say it's the beginning, but please let us know.
Eli, join me.
Thank you everyone who was donating throughout the stream.
We appreciate that.
And we'll hopefully call on guests to pick the next one because we put them through that.
Yeah, enough.
It's going to be Xenos T-List and we'll have to, we'll put you into that.
Again, thank you very much for listening and watching.
Thank you, Ed, for agreeing to come on in.
Thank you very much for joining us.
Thank you. I wouldn't dominate too much or anything like that.
One final vastly important question.
What's your favorite zombies map?
I don't pay card very much.
Sorry.
I was going to pay like friends has I got a big incident was a lockdown, but that was it.
Have you done that as a tier list?
Yeah.
So we had to see what your favorite epic rap.
Yeah, that's the lingering epic rap battles of history.
Oh, oh, I haven't watched it.
I've been watching for like years.
They're very old.
They're still going.
Yeah, they're still going.
They're still going.
How many have they done?
Over 50.
But the new ones, I got to be honest guys, the new ones are kind of mid, but like the older ones with like weirdo Yankovitch and Key and Peele S tier.
The new ones I saw the Henry Ford versus Carl Marx.
I was like, very clever lyrics, but the beats mid.
The beat counts.
The beat is important.
If the beat sucks, it doesn't matter how clever you are.
Should we do one for 40k at some point?
That could be really fun.
I was saying I had a vision of a lore crimes epic rap battle.
Epic lore crimes of history.
We probably can't steal the format.
With that being said though, thank you again so much, Ed, for joining us.
And thank you so much for watching and we'll catch you guys on the next one.
Peace.
Bye everyone.
Love you.
Oh man.
Bye.