Firstly, what happened to the weather? Like I
came to Cairns thinking this was going to be
lovely and warm and guess I'm going to have to
come back. What we're gonna do today is gonna
be a little bit different to what we did yesterday.
I suppose what we could have done is we could
have gone, yesterday we looked at Ephesians chapters
one to three, we kind of looked at the idea of
church through God's great plan. I guess what
we could have done today is kept that going through
chapters four to six. But what I wanted to do
is that something a little bit different. I'm
gonna just focus on chapter four versus one to
16. And we're gonna spend a little bit of time
on that. But at the same time, I'm going to just
talk a little bit about some of the things that
we've learnt from the Reach Australia network
that may help you. I've been talking to Brendan,
he's talking about the plan to double the church.
So there may be some things that maybe help you
think through how that's going to work and some
of the things you may need to navigate to do
that. Churches sometimes will ask us to come
in and do a consult. We usually charge the church
to do a consult. What I'm basically doing, I'm
gonna give you a mini consult while I'm trying
to teach the Bible at the same time. We'll see
how that goes. So I'm gonna pray that God will
give us wisdom, because I may have bitten off
more than I can chew. And yeah, the other thing
I'm gonna say is I'm gonna work through some
stuff and I'm gonna pause. at certain points.
So you can ask me questions of going, yeah, but
how does that work and how's that going to work
for us? Because I kind of know you and we can
kind of work through that a little bit. We'll
see how it goes. We'll see how God has this planned.
Let me pray. Father, forgive me if I have bitten
off more than I can chew in preparation here
today for my plan for today. We pray that Your
Spirit will be at work and that He will be guiding
us, that He will be helping us. I pray that for
Northern Hope as a church, please we pray that
your spirit will be at work in them as they seek
to continue to reach more and more people through
their ministry, through their gathering. I pray
that you'll help me to speak your words faithfully
and truthfully. But Father we pray that you will
be at work in us today, that your name might
be glorified and we pray this in Jesus name.
What are you aiming to do as a church? It's an
interesting question, isn't it? Because what
are you aiming to do will define, you can't say,
every time you say yes to something, you say
no to something else. So why are you saying yes
to this and not to that? It will really be defined
by what you want to do as a church. And there'll
be all sorts of different, I mean, I know who
I'm talking to. I've talked to you over the last
24 hours. So I know when I'm saying this, it's
like, you're on a boat. And those of you, I know
there are some people in this room who know this
better than I do, but when you're on a boat,
you've got the wind pushing you one way, you've
got your swell pushing you another way, you've
got the tides going a different direction, and
then there's the direction you wanna go. And
if you just kind of focus on what's going on
in the boat, You're going to end up here, you're
going to end up on a reef because you need something
that's going to help you keep going in that direction.
Something's going to focus you there. On a boat,
it's a compass or it's a fixed point on land.
What is that for you as a church? Because like
I said, you've got to work out what you, every
time you say yes to something, you're saying
no to something else. And why are you saying
yes to that and no to that? And it's really important
that you, as a church, are unified on that because
it's where fights come up. Why are we doing this
and not doing this? I love that ministry. I want
that ministry. Why did we say no to that? And
it's important that not just how... I'm going
to try and give you a picture of what it's like
as the church in principle, but I'm also going
to give you a bunch of questions that you will
need to work through as a church here in Cairns.
How are you going to answer these questions?
What are you aiming for? What is that guiding
force that's going to be there? It's a little
bit like, you know, and again we can get lost
in this a little bit with all the detail. Soccer
teams. Soccer teams actually understand what
soccer is about. Now soccer teams do all sorts
of different things and you know even on the
team people will be kicking the ball the goalie
will know what he's doing some are defending
some are kicking that sort of thing but everyone's
trying to do the same thing and that is get the
ball in the goal right that's and i remember
talking to someone i was trying to explain ministry
and i think he thought that ministry was oh we
kick the ball around but somebody else up the
end kicks the ball in the goal and going no we're
all aiming to do that Or with maths. Again, you
can do lots of different things with maths. I
tried to pick something else that was there.
Maths. You can do all sorts of different things
with maths and you can open books, read things,
do all that. But what is it that you're actually
aiming to do is to learn maths. What are you
aiming to do as a church? What's the thing? Because
that will also determine not just what you say
yes to and what you say no to, but what you celebrate.
What does every soccer team celebrate? When I
score the goal, yeah, they do that and you know
World Cup they do the big celebrations or something
or if you're watching NRL Apparently the thing
is you got to do that. I don't I'm not really
sure what that's about Apparently someone scored
a try didn't do that and they signed a question
whether that was a real try or not But they celebrate
right? What do you celebrate? What's that moment
of celebration? But you can get distracted by
all these other different things. Even on a soccer
team, you know, you'll have a barbecue, you'll
have the uniforms, you'll have this, you'll have
that, but if you spend all your time trying to
arrange all of that and you forget that it's
actually all about helping the team score the
goal, it's kind of what's the point? And churches,
I think, can get distracted by all sorts of different
things along the way. What is it that we're actually
aiming to do? Well, Ephesians 4 talks about,
there are three, there's two things, but I'm
adding a third one in there. Growing up, That's
what it's about. Growing up as disciples and
growing up as a community. Growing up as disciples,
what is a grown -up disciple? What is a Christian
disciple? Because isn't that what Jesus asked
us to do? Therefore go into all the world and
make disciples. It's interesting, he also then
goes, baptizing them in the name of the Father,
Son and Holy Spirit. We go, oh that's great,
Trinity, that's good, but you forget the fact,
baptizing, that is including them into the people
of God, including them into the church. And again,
we can get distracted by this. If I go to my
daughter Evie and I say, hey Evie, go clean your
room. and then I come back to her and go, did
you clean your room? She goes, well no, I spent
a bit of time on YouTube trying to work out how
to clean my room and then I rang my friends and
I asked them how they clean their room and then
apparently there's some books on reading on how
to clean your room so I downloaded those and
I had a look at those and you know there's a
seminar on how to clean your room and I went
to that and I went, yeah but did you actually
clean your room? She went, oh no, it's too busy.
Right, and that's what we can do. We get so caught
up on everything else, too busy to actually do
the one thing which is go and make disciples.
grow as disciples. Let's have a look. So if you've
got your Bible open there, let's have a look
at Ephesians chapter one. Sorry, chapter four,
verse one. As a prisoner for the Lord, I urge
you to live a life worthy of the calling you
have received. If there is nothing else that
you remember today, that is the thing. Live a
life worthy of the calling you have received.
This is the great thing about Christianity. It's
not about, if I can just do enough, enough, enough,
then I'll reach Nirvana or I'll go to the whatever,
heaven or whatever. If I just do enough, he goes,
no, Jesus did it for you. You just gotta live
it out. You know how our society keeps saying,
just be true to you? Actually, they're right.
It's just the true to you is what Jesus has done
for you. So live that out. Live out the grace
you've been given. God has called you to be these
people, so live that out. Isn't that great to
just, that's what we need to do? And how often,
the rest of the chapter we'll also talk about.
So don't be like this, be like this, because
we keep going back to our old patterns, our old
kind of, because our, you know, your old shoes,
they're a bit more comfortable, and Jesus has
given you new shoes, and you've kind of got to
break them in. Live out your new life, the calling
that God has given you. Be you. And then he goes
on, what does that look like? Verse two, be patient,
humble, gentle, bearing one another in love.
It's just taking on the family traits of God
at this point of time, isn't it? Isn't that what
he's showing to us? Isn't that what he is as
a father to us? Yes, you're part of the family.
Take on the family traits. Take on the family
traditions. Keeping in mind, we worship a God.
who washes people's feet. Sorry, I'm going to
go off on a few tangents, so just keep that in
mind as we go through. John chapter 13. There's
a moment in there, Jesus has gathered his disciples,
13 to 17, there's this long dinner they have
together. But at the start of chapter 13, he
says, Jesus knew that the Father put all things
under his feet. Like he was literally... No teenagers
here. He's literally the 15 -year -old teenager
who goes, the whole universe revolves around
me except for Jesus, it's actually true. He's
about to become the center of the universe. What's
the next words? So, he picked up his towel and
washes the disciples feet. Isn't that nice? That's
what our God is like and that's what we need
to be following. Take on the family traditions.
I'm going to keep going. Verse three, you'll
be glad to know I'm not doing every verse like
this, but make every effort to keep the unity
of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There
is one body and one Spirit just as you were called,
one hope to which you were called, one Lord,
one faith, one baptism, one God and Father over
all who is over all and through all. We saw this
yesterday for those who are here, we saw how
God is creating one new people. And it is we
express that as we come together, but also as
we see other churches as well. Now I realize
a lot of churches feel the guilt of why are we
not working together more and why can't we, we
need to, there's a guilt of we need to create
more unity. Let me alleviate you of that guilt.
You already have that unity. Jesus has given
you that. You don't need to create the unity
between different churches. You might need to
express that. Now, if I can speak as an outsider,
I realize I'm an outsider, but I've spoken to
a number of you, and I realize the relationship
between you and the Good Shepherd, how is that
kind of working? And some of you are going, I
feel like we need to have a closer unity. I want
to encourage you as an outsider, and I realize
I am an outsider. Just be patient. That unity
actually, Jesus has already created that unity,
but it may take you some time. There's some stuff
that needs to just happen, and time will do that.
The Spirit will do that. But don't feel the guilt
that you need to create that. It's already been
created for you in Jesus. But we do need to keep
that unity there. Let me jump down to verse 14.
Then we will no longer be infants tossed back
and forth in the waves blown here and there by
every wind of teaching and by the cunning and
craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
Instead we will be speaking the truth in love
and we will in all things grow up into Him who
is the head that is Christ. Stable and not moved.
Every so often there's a new trend that comes
out around Christianity everyone goes, ah we've
all got it wrong but it's alright I'm here to
save you. And some of you who are a little bit
older, you've seen these come and go, haven't
you? I've seen them come and go. And to sort
of not get panicked by this, but just to say,
well, let's just slow down. Let's just see if
it is true. Before we jump on every trend that
comes along, and I wanna say that includes anything
you see from Reach Australia. and go, oh well,
reach Australia, they've got the magic bullet.
I'm going, actually, no we don't. We're trying
to encourage you, we're trying to help you, particularly
what we see from the scriptures and what we understand
from churches, but just don't grab it because
it's the new thing. And don't be worried when
new ideas come along and batter you around. And
don't be worried when persecution comes. persecution
will come. One day something will happen, it'll
go in the local paper, something will blow up
and your name, the name of this church will be
there and my guess is that there'll be a meeting
and in that meeting someone will go, we need
to protect the reputation of the church and I
want at least one of you to ask the question,
do we? Is it really about us? I mean, didn't
we expect this? How about we just get on with
what Jesus has told us to do? Be stable and not
moved. Finally, speaking the truth in love. It's
a speaking thing. We have great opportunities.
I mean, we had a great opportunity there as we're
talking around the fire and that sort of thing.
But what do you talk about? It's great that we
talk about just life, things, hearing each other's
stories. I think that's great. But isn't it great
to be able to tell stories of, yeah, sorry, I
just realized it started to rain because you
promised me such beautiful weather here, but
if you're in the rain, please move around so
that there's plenty of chairs up here. I know
I'm not that scary. I don't bite too much, but
please be dry. But why don't you just have a
few things in the back of your mind? What? What
are things the conversation starters that you
can start to just kind of move you into the truth?
One of the ones my favorite one I stole this
from someone else because I steal all my best
stuff from other people is What what's God teaching
you at the moment? It's not a great anyone can
answer that question. What's God teaching you
at the moment? It might be tell me your story.
How did you become a Christian? It's a great
story What can I pray for you? Complicated. Anyone
can ask those questions. Anyone can answer those
questions. Great opportunities to just make sure
we got everything. Yeah, don't lose that. That
would be terrible. If this is being recorded,
that's going to come out really awkwardly, isn't
it? Go, what were they going to drop? And I'm
not going to tell you. You should have been here.
So that's the problem with listening to the recording.
Yeah. We've got everyone. Everyone's dry now.
Good. Is there anything over there that needs
to come in? Okay, let me kind of tie a few things
here together. How are you growing as a disciple?
Let me put it to you. What's something that you
need to work on? These are some of the things
that we've talked about. Sorry, I realised I've
just put these on a slide. There we go. Here
is a diagram that we use from time to time to
talk about a church, but I want to actually get
you to think about this as a disciple. I go through
this every year and I kind of look at myself
and I go, am I deep in the Word? Am I spending
my time in God's Word? This year I have, the
two things I've committed myself to is to read
the entire Bible. Well when I say read the entire
Bible, someone's reading it to me on a Spotify
thing, but I'm listening to the whole Bible.
And I'm also trying to memorize more scripture.
It's great having a Bible, it's great having
it on my phone, but having it in my head. And
there's a guy at our church, he's made a commitment
to memorize a hundred verses. am realistic that's
not going to work for me but I've got an app
that's helping me do that. How are you going
in being deep in the world? What about loving
God? How is your way of loving God and in prayer?
Yesterday I shared a little bit about my thing
of understanding that God loves me as his child
and learning to say that I love him. How's that
going for you? What about being in community?
Are there people here that you go, and now I
reckon you guys, this is one of your strengths,
as again, as an outsider, you guys know each
other well. A lot of you have known each other
for many, many years. How are you going with
helping people who are new include into your
community? Or are you, I mean, I don't know,
I'm asking the question, but I know for some
churches, get very comfortable, I know these
people, I've known them for years, it's great,
it's good. New people come in, that's a bit more
work. But if we love them, don't we want to see
them? Serving others? I might come back to that
in a moment, but how are you seeking to serve?
Mission. Are you praying for people who don't
know Jesus, at the very least? inviting them
to church. Again, I might come back to that in
a moment, but here is my point. My point is we
can often get into a spiritual plateau doing
the same things. Our relationship with God hasn't
moved. We're not growing up. We're not becoming
more like Jesus. We are not living out the life
that we have been called to, the grace that we've
been called to. You know, sorry, I remember hearing
a sermon. Actually, John Dickson, for those who
know John, he was preaching just around the corner.
We went there and he was preaching an evangelistic
sermon. He was talking about the judgment of
God and there was this big crack of thunder as
he was doing this. He goes, well, that doesn't
show it to you. I don't know what is. I'm just
wondering what's happening with the weather and
how much we can include that as we go along.
But here's the point. Are you planning, it is
worth actually kind of just looking at this and
go, yeah, I'm reading my Bible, I'm praying.
Okay, but where can you take another step? I'm
not saying you need to do something for all of
these and this is just a suggestion, but what's
one thing you can go, I need to just push in
a little bit more to living out my, not my comfortable
life, but the life that God has given to me.
How are we growing up as disciples? But it's
not just disciples. We want to grow up as a community
as well. I do want to talk a little bit about
this, that we are a people. Part of that is to
serve one another. We saw, we see that at the
end there in, oh gee, the wind's blowing all
my Bible around here, to verse six, from whom
the whole body joined together by every supporting
ligament grows. and built itself up in love as
each part does its work. You've been given a
gift. You've got to work out how you use it.
But how are we actually working together as a
community? And not just letting the leadership
thing, but I meant all of us. Because how we
love each other, here is how Jesus puts it, a
new command I give to you, that you love one
another. Just as I've loved you, you must love
one another. I want you to notice that last bit,
by this shall all men know if you are my disciples.
If someone walks in here and they're exploring
Christianity, here's what we see and we see it
again and again and again. We see it's not, I'm
sorry, it's not going to be Brendan's preaching.
It's not going to be how well they understand
the Bible. They're going to be watching you.
And what we saw yesterday about the glory in
the church. In fact, one of the things that we've
seen in some of the churches, particularly with
young adults, is they come in and they see the
community. They go, this is great. I want to
become a Christian so I can join this community.
I actually saw one guy, he gave his testimony.
He said, I saw this. I said, I want to be a part
of this. I'm going to become a Christian. And
he went to the person who was helping him understand
the gospel. He goes, I get it now. I want to
become a Christian. And she said, actually, you
don't. You're not ready because you don't understand
who Jesus is. But he was so enamored by the community,
which is on one hand a good thing. but it's got
to lead us to Jesus. We need to work together.
Now here's a, I haven't got a slide for this
because I only thought about this, I was thinking
about this this morning and the danger that you
may face is that you have a great community and
some of you may be sitting there going, oh if
we double in size am I going to lose my community?
Classic question for a church about this size,
they go, Now, on one hand, I want to say, okay,
what's more important, you being comfortable
or reaching the lost? But I also want to say,
you don't need to lose that. There are big churches,
in fact, I have a friend, right, let me tell
you this. I have a friend, he, again, they have
a building, sorry, and they had to rebuild their
building because it was too big and he was explaining
to some one of his people, he said, we need to
rebuild the building because uh the church is
too big she goes that's not too big there's only
you know like it's it's a small church she goes
actually there's a thousand people who meet here
in this church she's that's not true and he said
yeah it is and he went through and he showed
the numbers she goes but it doesn't feel like
it's a big church he goes yeah that's right so
you can have a big church and it can feel disconnected
and you can have a small church and you feel
like everyone's connected But you can also have
a small church and feel like no one's connected.
And you can have a big church and feel like everyone's
connected. And here is the secret, right? Here's
a secret source. You go, how do I get to that
point? It's the one another's. It's how do you
love one another and keeping that loving one
another through that. that process as you grow.
So the more you learn to love one another, don't
rely on Brendan, don't rely on the leadership,
I mean it's great, I'll come back to the leadership,
it'll be good, but learn to love one another.
And as people come in, teach them how to love
one another, and teach them to do that, and as
they come in, they'll go, this is a great community,
I love this community, and no one's gonna be
thinking about, well it's a thousand people,
I don't know everyone here, it doesn't matter,
there are people here who love me and I love
them, that's what matters. It's not the size.
So as you grow through that growth spurt, I'm
hoping, I'm praying you go through a growth spurt.
As you go through that growth spurt, hold onto
the one another's, but don't hold onto the size
of the community. Keep it going. And what I want
you to do is as you come together, there'll be
this, I came across this statement last week,
one of the church planters was talking about
how he describes his church. He goes, I want
churches that are, I want people who are stable,
they're not, they are holding on to the gospel,
they're not rocked around by all sorts of things,
but they're also lovely, they're warm and they're
loving. And so he came up with this lovely phrase
of warm rocks. And you know, the closer you get,
the warmer you stay. But not... distracted, not
unstable, not thrown around by every wind of
teaching, but warm. Isn't that a wonderful picture?
Pray that you'll be warm rocks. A grown -up disciples,
grown -up community. But there's one more that
I want to mention here and that is the people
who aren't here. Like I said, you want to double
in size. Jesus describes it as sheep who are
not yet in my pen. Just keep in mind, like I
said, there's a five, ten, I don't know, if you're
one of those people who like numbers, just keep
in mind, whatever thing that you're doing, there's
five percent of the people aren't here yet, and
you've got to work it out. Not just the people
in front of you, but the other five percent who
aren't there yet, and when they come in, that's
okay, there's another five percent, and just
keep going along there. One of the things that,
again, this is me just showing you some of the
things that we've learned that may be helpful
for you just to think this through. Does this
diagram look, have you done this diagram before?
No, okay, right. So one of the ways is just to
kind of think about how do we help people who
are not there, I'll try and get it the right
way, who are not there, how do we get them to
be a part of our community? And sometimes it's
helpful just to kind of break things down along
the way, just so that we're making sure that
works. One of the things that I see is when people
come in, I go to churches, they go, oh, we are
a very welcoming church. And I go, okay, tell
me about that. And they go, we have someone at
the door, they give them a piece of paper, we
talk to them. And I go, and then what? And they
are good things. Gotta do that, right? But if
you want someone to join your community, you're
gonna have to actually do something else along
the way. Part of that is to work out, are they,
are they? Are they Christian? Are they not Christian?
How do I help them? If they're not Christian,
I need to help them to understand. What does
it mean to know Jesus? So if someone comes into
your church, this is a question you need to answer.
If someone comes into your church, what's the
mechanism that you've got to help them to understand
who Jesus is? Now if the answer is, I'll introduce
them to Brendan, that's not really going to work
for you. Because what happens if Brendan gets,
I know we're in cancer, what happens if Brendan
gets taken by a croc? Normally it's hit by a
bus. But the problem is, there's going to be
a point where there's too many people for Brendan
to deal with. So you can't rely on Brendan at
that point in time. What's the mechanism? Now
one of the things that we've learned is that
people who want to understand Christianity, because
the way that Australia is at the moment, when
people want to understand Jesus, it takes them
some time and it takes them some people and takes
prayer. and so sometimes just kind of going well
Jesus died for your sins and you need to trust
in him okay you're ready to go let's go it takes
some time to do this and so what we found is
giving them a couple of weeks of working through
that and they see people go oh okay that's what
it means to follow Jesus I'm not like Brendan
but I am a bit like Steve so yeah okay I can
get that I can see how that works and for them
to go but hang on so how does You believe in
the Bible. So hang on, let me get this right.
So you're saying some Jewish guy who was around
2 ,000 years ago on the other side of the planet
said some stuff, never wrote a book, but got
executed by the Romans and because of that I
am now God's child. Is that what you're saying?
Well, yeah, and it sounds weird, doesn't it?
And they've got to kind of break all of that
down. So I want to ask you, how are you kind
of helping them understand the gospel? converted
thing. And then actually there's a whole bunch
of stuff there where someone comes into church,
maybe this is you, and they're going, what's,
why do you meet on Sundays? Why are we singing?
What's this small group thing that you've got
going? Why are we having family camp? Like there's
a whole bunch of things where we just do, we've
done for years and years and they just go, I
don't understand how that works. Again, how are
you helping them? I also want to encourage you
to think about how you're helping people join
your church. Let me explain what we do in our
church. Our church is a bigger church, but one
day you're gonna be that size, so you need to
know this, so here we go. How we do it in our
church is the first thing they do is they meet
the minister for 15 minutes after the service.
They go, if you're feeling newish, and we call
it newish, They don't do a lot with marketing
in our church. If you're feeling newish, go to
newish and basically sit down with Dave. Dave
goes, okay, here's the deal. We love Jesus and
we want to see people come to know Jesus. If
you're on board with that, this is a good church.
If you're not on board with that, there's some
other churches around. He's pretty blunt on that.
Then we kind of had them a couple of weeks ago,
this is how our church works. And actually what
they'll do is they'll go, here's some tricky
stuff that churches have different views on.
so they go here is we want to be upfront with
you about that I'll be clear some of that's got
to do with the role of women in church divorce
and remarriage how we how we sit with LGBTI kind
of things and goes we're just being upfront We
love everyone, we want everyone to know Jesus,
this is how we think we're following Jesus. You
can find their papers. But what they're doing
is basically saying, if you want to join us,
this is what it means. Then put them into small
groups and help them along the way. Now let me
just stop there for a moment. Has anyone got
any questions on how that works or anything that
I've missed that's there? I don't know what you're
doing. So I've intentionally not asked that question.
So I can't tell, yeah, we do all of that or no,
actually, we haven't really thought about that
or we've started doing that. I don't know. So
yeah, but now's a good time to ask questions.
do you have another team that they go, hey these
guys are new, can you have all your days reflect
them to somebody like how did you do that time?
Yeah yeah I think thank you Barbara that's a
really good question. Now again this is going
to be slightly different for you guys because
you're a slightly smaller church so and a lot
you're a very highly relational church. So let
me again let me tell you because we're again
the problem with our church is it's a growing
church, it's a bigger church. because it's grown
so quickly, the relationships are not there.
And so we're half of us are going, I can't even
tell who's new and who's not because we're, you
know, so, so Nathan, who's that guy who's does
this, there's two things that he does. Sorry,
there's three things, but one of them you can't
do because he has a phenomenal memory. So he
memorizes every single person who walks in. And
if you've walked in the last six weeks, he'll
remember you and remember your name and that
sort of thing. And that's, that's got people
coming back because but no one's like Nathan.
So just ignore that one. The second thing, now
there is a video on this actually, I did a video
to show you this is what he does on the Reach
Australia thing and I'll send it to Brendan so
you can have a look. The second thing that he
does is they welcome people in the door just
like any other church, go hi welcome church,
you know he gives them a thing, sends them through,
that sort of thing. Then, because we're a bigger
church, in the last song he gets his welcoming
team and they stand up the back and they go okay
who's new? that one that one that one and he
makes sure that someone either someone on the
team or every so often the team will be overwhelmed
and he'll send me a text and go can you talk
to the person that but what his goal is he goes
in a big church they can easily get lost so i
want to make sure that someone's talking to them
within a minute of the service finishing uh and
so he makes sure that his team is is doing that
because we're a bigger church we've got a that's
got to be a much more disciplined process And
part of that is to kind of go, okay, we want
you if you're when you're ready. Because some
people take a long time before they're ready
to join the community. And you know, you've got
to be patient. And there's a plan. But people
are messy. And they don't always stick to that
plan. But that's okay. You know, we kind of get
some people just jump around and you go, okay,
that's great. But I just need to help you, you
know, make sure that everything's there. But
then we'll kind of go, hey, great it's great
you want to be part of the community when you're
ready here is kind of how we help you do that
just to go through that process with them but
by having everyone having that team at the back
it's kind of made the rest of us twig oh if there's
a new person i should go and talk to them so
most of our people just automatically now do
that and half the time i'm going hi i'm pete
are you new and they go no i've been here for
five years and i'm like going well welcome to
church and gets a bit awkward but yeah um but
it's better than not doing that Does that answer
your question Barbara? But I think the key thing
there is that Nathan's got a plan and you've
just got to work out how do you work that plan
out, how do you work that out for here. Don't
do what Nathan does because he's trying to do
it for a different thing. You're going, how do
I get a highly relational church to make sure
that when someone comes in, I mean one of the
dangers that you guys might face is that when
someone new comes in, you all just kind of crowd
around them and they're like, oh, now I'm freaked
out. But at the same time, you don't want everyone,
you don't want them to be ignored. I actually
reckon, yeah, if someone walks in, if someone
talks to them within the first two minutes at
the end of the service, and if someone contacts
them within 24 hours after the service, they
are, I think someone said, you've got an 80 %
chance of them coming back. I don't know how
they work that out. I'm just giving you the...
I'm just throwing out numbers like they have
some sort of authority, right? But they're probably
good things to do. Any other questions? Yeah.
Before you mentioned churches growing rapidly,
that number, is that counted just as people coming
and enjoying the community and going, I want
to be a part of Jesus' life? Is that the numbers
of, I have given my life and I'm here for the
real reason? Yeah, that's a really great question.
Sorry, what was your name? Wenita, sorry Wenita,
thanks for reading the Bible yesterday, you did
a great job. Yeah, there's a range of different
things and so there are people, I mean there
are people who are just swapping chairs on the
Titanic so to speak, where you know come from
one church and they go to another church and
I want to kind of discourage that a little bit,
like if you're... depends on why they're leaving
that's a whole big thing kind of thing but if
it's like oh it's a pretty good church I just
like this church better I'm going yeah you don't
understand what church is about stay there make
your church better. There are some people who
are coming to church because they are genuine
inquirers about Christianity and like that's
at the other end and that's yeah we want to keep
encouraging them and that's great and there's
been the number of people that I keep hearing
around the thing where church has done nothing
and there are people just walking in and they're
going how awesome is that like that's great um
so you've got that you've also got people who've
gone oh i haven't been to church for a while
and especially the covid thing uh although that's
that's getting less now or they're they used
to go to church they've just moved to cairns
and they've gone you know what we've changed
our life, it's probably time to get back to new
habits and come back to church as well. And so
you've kind of got that group of people as well.
So you've got different people, and there are
people who will come, I've got to be careful
how I say this because it's being recorded, come
from let's say a church of a different tribe.
and they've decided, no, I want to come to a
church that teaches the Bible a bit more faithfully.
And I actually think you've got to treat those
people slightly, I mean this is all a nice neat
little thing, but actually you've got to treat
each of those groups of people slightly differently
to help them connect in with the community. So
if you've got someone coming from another different
tribe, they'll have different expectations of
church, you're going, yeah that's not how we
do that here, let me help you understand that.
Or if you've got someone who's coming back to
church, Sometimes again, there's some hurt or
there's some pain there and it's actually worth
kind of going through. That shouldn't have happened
to you. On behalf of the church, I want to apologize
and help them go through that healing process.
Is that the kind of question you're asking? Yeah,
okay, cool. Like I said, it'd be nice if people
just went through this kind of thing, but people
are messy. And so you have a plan and then you
have people and you've just got to work out how
those two work together. All right. Any other
questions? Otherwise, I'm going to keep going.
How does the growing actually happen? One is
you have been given gifts, extraordinary gifts.
Some of you got some great administrative gifts,
some of you got some great technical gifts. I've
always joked the reason why Jesus has 12 disciples
is because at the Sermon on the Mount, three
of them were on tech at that time, so that's
a joke. Good, I'm glad we got that one. people
have different gifts. I mean, when I started
the church plant, I did a thing on an Excel sheet
and one of the guys came to me and said, he treated
me like I'd spelt my name right as a three year
old. He goes, yeah, well done, Pete. You tried.
That's good. That's not your software. You should
never download that ever again sort of thing.
And he took it over and it was great. But we've
all been given different gifts. And it's one
of the things that reminds us that Jesus is alive.
I won't go through that in Ephesians, but you
know that he has died, he's risen. And because
he's risen, He gives us His Spirit and so He
gives us gifts. And so you can, and I think in
Australians we're not great at seeing our gifts,
we're much better at seeing gifts in other people.
And sometimes it's worth actually asking people,
what do you think my gifts are? And people will
see things in you that you don't see in yourself,
it's just the Australians, that's what we're
like. But we can't miss that because we're Christians.
And the gifts in some cases are people, I'll
come back to that in verse 11. But you see in
verse two, verse seven, sorry, I should read,
that's why I need my glasses. But to each one
of us grace, actually the word there, the Greek
word there is gifts. Grace has been given, gifts
have been given as Christ apportioned it. So
you've been given the right amount of gifts.
Part of that is our people. and you see that
in verse 11, is some He gave to be apostles,
some prophets, some pastors, some teachers, some
sorry, some to be evangelists, some to be pastors
and teachers. Come back to that in a minute.
But again, it comes back to verse 16, the whole
body joined together by every supporting ligament
grows and build itself up in love as each part
does its work. Everyone has a part. Now, there's
a couple of things you've got to keep in mind
here. Not everyone has the same gift. And that's
okay. And I know some people will get jealous
and go, ah, they've got the upfront gift and
they can do that, that's really good. Some people,
everyone has a gift. It's not about whether you've
got a better gift or the other. It's whether
you're using your gift in love. That's what Paul
was writing to the Corinthians about. He goes,
yeah, you got all these great gifts, but are
you loving? Are you using your gift to love?
Whatever you got, use it to love those around
you. But keep in mind, different people will
have different capacities. I had a ministry trainee
and I'm a bit more of an introvert. I got to
the end of the fire thing last night and I just
went, my introvert, my battery, my people battery
was at E, right? I just, I can't, sorry, I can't
do another conversation and Steve and Sandra
are very kind, took me home. But I'm an introvert.
I like time by myself. I work with this guy called
Carl. He is an extreme extrovert. So I would
disciple people. I meet with guys. I can meet
with about five guys, one to one per week on
top of everything else. And he's like, he starts
with 12. And I'm like, oh, man. And then on Friday
night, he has a whole bunch of people over for
dinner to his place. And then on Saturday, he
spends all his time with people. And then I'm
like going, and it took me a while to realize.
he's supposed to be my trainee but I can't keep
up with him and I said and that's okay because
that's the way God's made him that's the way
God's gifted him and some people have different
capacities I need you to keep that in mind because
sometimes we get so caught you know that that
thing we get we get very focused on service and
some of us who have larger capacities go why
is not everyone else keeping up with me and or
larger capacities, we suffer from burnout. Now,
actually, can I throw something to you? Sorry,
you're on, Juanita. Can you get that diagram
back up again for a moment? Let me just give
you something that's gonna be helpful for you.
Some of us will get so caught on serving and
then we burn out and we get bitter. The first
sign of that is, why isn't everyone doing what
I'm doing? When you start thinking that, that's
a red flashing light, address it. and what we'll
tend to do is go, I feel like I'm doing everything,
that's making me grumpy, so I'm gonna stop doing
things. Because that's the problem. Actually,
that's not your problem. Your problem isn't the
serving others, that one. Actually, what your
problem is, is the one on the other side, it's
loving God. You've stopped loving God, you've
spent so much time on serving, and what you actually
need to do, if you're gonna step back, step back
and go, how do I get my heart and my mind around
loving God? because what at the moment I'm focusing
on serving and that's what's burning me out.
Don't step back, step into loving God. See this
thing all connects together, that's why we run
it the way we do. There are all these different
things, they all connect together and sometimes
the problem isn't on one side, it's on another
side. So just keep that in mind. How am I going
for time? Am I going over time? Whatever. We're
going, we're going, we're going cancer on. So
yep. And I don't want you to underestimate the
ministry of prayer. I know some people go, oh,
like physically I can't do stuff, or there are
seasons that we go through, particularly if you've
got young kids, and they go, my ministry is just
my kids, you go, that's okay. And like I said,
remember we talked about Karen yesterday, Karen
just turned up, she's got two kids, and you go,
yep, that's your ministry, that's you. And our
ministry to you is to help you do that. different
seasons, different capacities, but don't underestimate
prayer is one of those ones that you can do.
Don't underestimate it. Some of you may have
trouble just like if you're a Kyle, sorry if
you weren't here yesterday, just go with it.
There's a guy called Kyle, you know Kyle can't
sit still. The way that I encourage Kyle's to
pray is okay, When you get up in the morning,
when you put your feet on the ground, pray for
someone. And then when you get your cereal out,
you pray for someone, remember to pray for someone
else. And when you put the milk in, remember
to pray for someone else. And you just, as you're
doing stuff, you go, all right, I've got to remember
to pray for cereal. I don't know, it's got connected
to missionary. So that's when I'm praying for
missionary friends. Oh, there's one I was going
to say. Sorry, just put it. thing to get I realized
that could be really inappropriate so let me
try something else and you know when I'm putting
sugar on my cereal I don't put sugar on your
cereal but when you know my wife is sweet so
that's I'm gonna pray for my wife yeah just kind
of you don't have to do it where you're just
sitting there just work out how it works for
you let me just quickly go through leaders and
then I'll stop for questions there but one of
the gifts we get our leaders we get Brendan's
it's great but you see that they're inverse I
said I'd come back to it, verse 11. Some to be
apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists,
some to be pastors and teachers, and I realise
everyone goes, is it pastors and teachers two
different things, are they the same thing? It
doesn't really matter. But you'll notice, what
do you notice about that? Apostles, what do they
do? They wrote the New Testament. Prophets, what
do they do? They wrote the Old Testament. What
do evangelists do? They tell people about Jesus.
What do pastors and teachers do? The leadership
comes from the Word. That's why the preaching
is so important. Studying the Word is so important.
That's why, like I said yesterday, question time
is so important because you get to come back
to the Word. But what's their job? It's not just
to teach the Word, verse 12, it's to prepare
God's people for works of service so that the
body of Christ might be built up until we all
reach unity in the faith and the knowledge of
the Son of God and become mature at turning to
the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
us working, so Brendan's job is actually not
to do ministry. Some of us kind of get into the
point of, oh, we give money so we can pay Brendan,
and I don't think we'll ever say this out loud,
but there's probably something in the back of
our head going, I give money to pay Brendan so
he does the ministry and I get on with my life.
Yeah, no, that's not how this goes. Brendan's
the coach, you're the players. So his job is
to equip you for works of service. Now one of
the things that we notice in Reach Australia
is there are sometimes two problems with this.
Sometimes the leader doesn't give responsibility.
So you've got to give responsibility and take
responsibility. Sometimes the leader doesn't
give responsibility or the way they give responsibility
is they give the responsibility but they hold
onto it and they kind of micromanage it and that
sort of thing. Sometimes it's like they just
throw it at you and go yep, you go and do that
So sometimes they just throw the responsibility
and they don't do it. Well Friend of mine called
Dave Moore has written a really helpful book
on a couple of books on this the team leaders
handbook and the team members handbook. How do
you move that responsibility around and that
sort of thing? I do want to say in the team members
handbook, there's a number of conversations between
Dave and a guy called Pete. I don't remember
any of those conversations, but apparently they
were conversations he and I had. So please keep
that in mind. But here's what, here's how responsibility
works. Like Dave taught me this. He said, I came
over to his place and he said, I said, oh, can
I pack the dishwasher for you? He goes, yeah,
this is an S1 thing. I said, what's the S1 thing?
He goes, S1 is I'm just telling you how to do
it and you don't get to debate anything. I went,
okay. He goes, you put the plates there, you
put the forks there. I go, okay, tell me a bit
more about this S1 thing. He goes, well, the
S1 is I'm just telling you how to do things.
Now, in some ways, sometimes that has to happen.
Sometimes Brendan has to do that. When I work
with people, I go, here's the system. If I call
S1, I'm sorry, this isn't a debate, this is urgent,
I need to get it done. the rain's coming down
we need to move the table this isn't the time
for a committee meeting this is move the table
right s2 the second step is to go um brendan's
going to make a call and stuff but let's just
get some input let's make some decisions but
let's note this isn't a democracy where everyone
gets to vote on it brendan will make decision
but you'll want to hear what you've got to say
but then there's another point where brendan
needs to actually hand over responsibility sorry
man i'm just picking on you because you're in
the front Brendan needs to hand over responsibility.
This gets scary for leaders and go, okay, I'm
gonna get Lucy, isn't it? Sorry, I haven't met
you yet, but I'm just gonna pick on you because
you're in my line of sight. Sorry for that. Really
regretting to sitting at the front now, even
though that was what you were trying to be encouraging.
And now I've made it worse for you. So Lucy comes
along and said, I'm gonna give some responsibility
to Lucy. Brendan's gonna, now Brendan can suggest
things to Lucy, but it's Lucy's call. That's
an S3 thing. That's a big shift. And so Brendan
go, I reckon you should do this and this, but
Lucy's decided, no, no, we're gonna do it this
way. At this point, Brendan, now Lucy, you've
got to make sure Brendan does that and lets you
do that. Go, Brendan, we agreed. This was an
S3 thing. I've got responsibility here. And so,
you know, you could go, I want, sorry, I'm just
trying to think. I want pink balloons all along
the thing here. And Brendan's gone, that's gonna
be really, and you go, no, it's your responsibility.
Then S4 is the next step. I'm sorry. I'm throwing
this to you very quickly, but the S4 is there
to go, okay, Brendan's given something to Lucy.
Brendan doesn't have any input. Lucy, you've
got responsibility. You can make it work. It
might be something to do with an Excel sheet,
and if Brendan's anything like me with an Excel
sheet, it's better he doesn't tell you anything,
because that's just gonna make things worse.
But you see how it's a gradual progression that's
there? And some of that is Brendan having to
give that responsibility. And some of it is some
of it where you need to go, hey, Brendan, I need
to take that responsibility. But it's an important
part in that whole thing. But keep in mind, it
is important that you don't just take responsibility
without asking Brendan. When I mean take responsibility,
I don't mean steal it. And I don't mean taking
the wrong responsibility. coming in and going,
you know what, I've decided I'm going to preach
up the front now, or something like that. But
you need to be working through it. Brendan's
still the leader. He actually has to give an
account for you before Jesus. Hebrews 13, 17.
But there's a point where his job is to help
you build the body, to equip you. And so there's
a give responsibility and take responsibility.
Now let me just pause there. Got questions on
that? Anything I can do to help you with that?
did I've given you a lot of information I've
overwhelmed you so if you want me to go back
and just help clarify something then now's the
time to do that yeah sure sorry yeah yeah and
I know this is going to be a bit of a pain but
piece of papers actually help you at this point
of time to actually sit down and go okay Particularly
if it's an ongoing ministry to go okay. Here
is what you can do. Here's what you can't do
Here's what you need to ask me for here is what
you can just do by yourself Like that's that's
as simple as that try and keep it to one piece
of paper So that means that when you feel sorry,
what is your name? Dale, sorry Dale. So Dale,
when you feel like Brendan's not going to do
this, but Brendan starts to micromanage you a
little bit, you can kind of get the piece of
paper out and go, Brendan, this is what we agreed
to, right? But he can also kind of go to you
and say, hey, Dale, we agreed to do this. Is
there a problem here? Can I help you with something?
How do I help you fulfill that? But I think,
yeah, taking the responsibility, does that make
sense? Yeah, I think that's a really helpful
thing to do. And we have other churches that
have done something like that. And again, I can
make sure that Brendan gets a hold of that so
he can pass it on to you. But you've got to keep
in mind, taking responsibility means taking responsibility.
I think too often we kind of go, oh, I don't
really feel like doing that today. And so you
ring up Brendan and go, oh, I'm not turning up
to kids ministry today. I'd rather sit around
and watch the football. That's not taking responsibility.
When you take responsibility, you're saying,
I'm going to be there. I have that responsibility.
I'm going to see it through. I realize some people
get sick, I understand that, but yeah. Yeah.
My name's Faye. Oh, thank you, Faye. I can give
you a perfect example of what's happened to me
with passing the baton. Sure. So Brendan gave
Sam the responsibility of running the can. Yeah.
And then Dan came to me and said, I'd like you
to do a craft floor course. Yep. that's up to
you sure yep let's see so yeah that's a really
helpful one so so when yeah yeah give her a clap
all right so when dan gave you that he's kind
of gone that's an s4 thing is dan here now you
can talk all about it okay good but sorry again
i'm an outsider i'm watching dan do his thing
um dan's my guess is dan's pretty clear on i
don't know how to do craft you do so I'm just
going to hand that that's an S4 thing so he's
handed that straight on to you Brendan's given
Dan the responsibility of running this my guess
is that's an S3 thing so so Brendan's gone hey
Dan we need to organise this here are some things
that we need to make sure that we're doing rest
of it is your call make it happen. Did I get
that right? Yeah cool. So yeah and that's really
it. Thank you. That's super helpful just having
that kind of thing there and just taking a step
back and go okay where do those conversations
fit and I think actually whenever you're having
that conversation either Faye, you with Dan or
Dan with Brendan or anyone with Brendan, just
kind of go so can I just clarify what classification
this is so that I'm clear as to what my responsibility
is and what your responsibility is. So I found
that super helpful in the ministries that I've
been involved with. even still today. Any other
questions? Oh yeah, one more. and then the others,
the rest are watching the newcomers and then
they try to sit behind them and then make sure
that they will talk to them afterwards if they
have any questions and everything. And what you
said that to bring them up, if they're in the
24 hours or 48 hours, that is incredible. They
will value that they are valued by them. by the
church, because I got so many bad experiences
from my daughter, that they went to churches
and then no one talked to them. The first time,
the second time, the third time, and then it
came back and said, Mum, that's it, I'm not going
to church anymore. So the whole church from Sydney,
they even have welcoming morning tea, or afterwards
lunch when they are more stable. sounds like
you know exactly what needs to happen so this
is great so I'm sure Brendan will be talking
to you about that in a moment but yeah but I
do want to say that the phone call for example
doesn't have to come from Brendan and I know
it gets a bit scarier I don't have to ring this
person up what do I say well let me give you
it's like Hey, I'm Pete. I saw you're at church.
You say, I just want to say thanks for coming.
I'm really glad that you were there. Is there
anything that you had any questions about or
anything like that? Love to see you back there,
but just want to say thanks for coming. That's
all you need to do. Like, just thanks for coming.
That's it. And the number of people go, wow,
yeah, they actually care that I was there. That's
all you're really showing. And it's how long
was that conversation? Less than 15 seconds.
There you go. Let me go back. I want you to just
imagine Northern Hope Church in 10 years time.
What's it going to be like? What are some of
the things that you may need to say no to in
order to get to where you want to go? Now I know
there was a church that I was involved with and
they had a they had a weekly craft thing and
It was one of those things that because they
had that we said yes to that it meant that we
couldn't use the building on a Tuesday morning
where we really wanted to run a mums -and -bubs
thing and it was just a really moment It was
a bit of a tense moment and we really there was
a thing where we actually what we needed to do
to say Hey, love your craft thing But let's not
do that as a church Can you do that in your place
and invite people over and do it that way so
that we're free because the mums and bums are
going to help us grow the church? We didn't do
that, we should have. What are you going to say?
I know saying no to things, it's hard, but it's
important. You need to learn how to do that.
But what's the church going to look like in 10
years? There is... focusing on where you're gonna
go. There's a book called Simple Church and really
he's just going, just keep it clear. Where's
your compass? Where's your point? Growing disciples,
making disciples, growing as a community as disciples.
That's what guides you. You've got to keep doing
that. Okay, Juanita, we're gonna throw, I'm gonna
throw that photo with the kids. Can you bring
me back to that? What's the church? going to
be like in 10 years. Well more importantly, what
is the church that you're going to pass on to
these guys? What's that going to be like? I know
there is an urgency of going, well Jesus is going
to come back, we need to be ready and so we do
tend to get into that urgency and we do tend
to go, we've just got to get through the next
year or the next month or usually the next week,
the seven -day cycle, that's what keeps us going,
but I want you to look at them. What is the church
you're going to leave them? a church full of
warm rocks, a church full of mature people who
love Jesus, serve Jesus, and love people who
don't know Jesus yet. Is it going to double in
size? What's the church you're going to leave
these guys? I can't answer that for you. You
need to work this out. Once you've worked that
out, you've got to work out how you're going
to get there. What's the cost that you need to
bear to get there? Is this going to be a church
where they can invite their friends and their
friends have come, they've started loving Jesus?
Imagine what your church is like in 10 years.
I have gone over time, I apologize for that,
but I want to leave you with... God is a big
God and I think we insult him when we pray little
prayers. So I'm going to pray a big prayer for
you. Father, you are a great God who does great
things. You rescued Israel out of Egypt. You
got them to walk through the Red Sea and sometimes
in our our instant Culture where we press a button
and we just want things to happen and we pray
to you and you don't do things Immediately and
we don't follow your timing. We forget that you
are a great God who does great things Father
I pray for Northern Hope Church now that you
will double their numbers That they will have
all the problems of a growing church of where
do we find leaders? How do we do this? I? Pray
that you'll provide them with a great building
that enables them to do that. I pray that you
will see we will see more and more people turn
to you in faith and repentance through them.
Father I'm not going to tell you how you do these
things because I have learnt that whenever I
tell you to do these things you just laugh at
me and do something even greater. So whatever
you choose to do we give this to you and we look
forward to seeing that we will watch and see
what you do. and we pray this in Jesus name.
Amen. Thank you. I have so enjoyed being a part
of your church over the last few days and I will
have to leave a little bit later on this morning
but I want to say thank you for letting me be
a part of your community and I'm looking forward
to coming back at some point. That'd be great.
Thank you.