WEBVTT 00:00:02.399 --> 00:00:05.580 Thanks for joining me today, Nikki. Hey, Rashad, 00:00:05.620 --> 00:00:10.060 great to be here. As we said today, you are leading 00:00:10.060 --> 00:00:14.199 a biotechnology startup at the forefront of medicine. 00:00:14.839 --> 00:00:19.850 How did you get here? Well, it's an interesting 00:00:19.850 --> 00:00:23.010 story. I actually am the co -founder and CEO 00:00:23.010 --> 00:00:25.649 of Swaza, which is based in Mountain View, California, 00:00:26.170 --> 00:00:28.690 Silicon Valley biotechnology startup. But how 00:00:28.690 --> 00:00:31.129 I came to it actually was as the first outside 00:00:31.129 --> 00:00:37.219 investor to the company. And the story really 00:00:37.219 --> 00:00:40.359 starts in COVID, as many of the stories today 00:00:40.359 --> 00:00:44.039 start. But in my case, in 2020 is the year that 00:00:44.039 --> 00:00:47.500 I call my Jobin year, because in that year, I 00:00:47.500 --> 00:00:51.659 lost my mom very early to COVID. To tell you 00:00:51.659 --> 00:00:54.240 how early it was when she passed in Virginia, 00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:58.159 they wrote about it in the Washington Post with 00:00:58.159 --> 00:01:01.679 two other people, because it was so exotic to 00:01:01.679 --> 00:01:05.150 actually have someone die from SARS -CoV -2. 00:01:05.569 --> 00:01:10.209 In that same year, I lost all of my dependents 00:01:10.209 --> 00:01:13.129 who lived with me. They were older dependents. 00:01:13.870 --> 00:01:18.090 And I suffered a head injury where I had to relearn 00:01:18.090 --> 00:01:21.349 how to walk again. I had so many different life 00:01:21.349 --> 00:01:23.969 changes in that one short period of time. I found 00:01:23.969 --> 00:01:28.950 myself at the end of 2020. alone with the mirror 00:01:28.950 --> 00:01:31.950 and God and asking the question, you know, when 00:01:31.950 --> 00:01:35.150 we lose those aspects of our identity that we 00:01:35.150 --> 00:01:38.950 define our daily lives by, then who are we really? 00:01:39.290 --> 00:01:42.450 And at the end of that time, I sort of just realized 00:01:42.450 --> 00:01:45.109 that, well, whatever I have or I haven't done 00:01:45.109 --> 00:01:46.969 or whatever I've achieved, I haven't achieved. 00:01:47.269 --> 00:01:51.250 I'm a steward. We don't really own anything. 00:01:51.829 --> 00:01:54.489 It's all on loan to us, time, money, resources, 00:01:55.189 --> 00:01:58.670 and talent. So I thought, well, what I need to 00:01:58.670 --> 00:02:01.069 do is basically spend whatever time I do have, 00:02:01.189 --> 00:02:03.950 whether it's 10 years or 100 years, it's all 00:02:03.950 --> 00:02:07.489 really short, building things that matter. And 00:02:07.489 --> 00:02:11.770 so I radically changed what my Focus was on, 00:02:11.770 --> 00:02:13.810 I radically changed the things I was investing 00:02:13.810 --> 00:02:17.490 in. I had a very different risk profile and risk 00:02:17.490 --> 00:02:21.550 appetite. And it wasn't really for money, but 00:02:21.550 --> 00:02:25.189 it was for impact. And so in parallel, at that 00:02:25.189 --> 00:02:28.449 same time, my co -founder Jay Rajadas had been 00:02:28.449 --> 00:02:32.889 rapidly trying to race against the clock to develop 00:02:32.889 --> 00:02:38.069 key technologies in response to COVID. a vaccine, 00:02:38.509 --> 00:02:41.050 a therapeutic, a number of other technologies. 00:02:41.250 --> 00:02:43.990 But the fourth technology he developed was this 00:02:43.990 --> 00:02:47.889 nanofluid breathing aid technology. And so when 00:02:47.889 --> 00:02:51.990 we met and converged, it really was about time 00:02:51.990 --> 00:02:58.289 and purpose. And I saw the utility of what we 00:02:58.289 --> 00:03:01.530 were doing in not only in respiratory care, but 00:03:01.530 --> 00:03:04.349 really the approach using these advanced drug 00:03:04.349 --> 00:03:07.530 delivery techniques to really create new kinds 00:03:07.530 --> 00:03:11.349 of therapeutics that really addressed the host 00:03:11.349 --> 00:03:15.090 or the person rather than specific underlying 00:03:15.090 --> 00:03:20.009 biochemical processes of disease as being not 00:03:20.009 --> 00:03:22.969 only very useful, but having huge utility and 00:03:22.969 --> 00:03:27.310 in meeting a huge unmet need. So my journey to 00:03:27.639 --> 00:03:31.240 this type of entrepreneurism rather than having 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:35.099 it be a progression or departure from something 00:03:35.099 --> 00:03:38.159 that I had been doing before was more of a homecoming 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:46.860 to a really intentional grounded and purposeful 00:03:46.860 --> 00:03:51.939 approach to not only investing my time but resources 00:03:51.939 --> 00:03:56.259 and an effort into. So when I came upon Swaza 00:03:56.259 --> 00:03:59.560 technology, it wasn't the question, should I 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:03.259 do this? It was the question, how can I not do 00:04:03.259 --> 00:04:06.379 this? Because this matters. This is what I need 00:04:06.379 --> 00:04:09.479 to be called to build. And so that alignment 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:13.699 of purpose, that alignment of mission was really 00:04:13.699 --> 00:04:16.699 what drove what drove all of this. Jay, who's 00:04:16.699 --> 00:04:18.819 the inventor of the technology, he spent his 00:04:18.819 --> 00:04:22.180 entire life creating life -giving therapeutics. 00:04:22.199 --> 00:04:25.459 And it's not for money or for fame. It's because 00:04:25.459 --> 00:04:30.240 he wants to see people benefit from good science 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:34.649 and have better quality of life. So it's a real 00:04:34.649 --> 00:04:38.029 privilege to be able to do this and to represent 00:04:38.029 --> 00:04:41.949 a team of people who have decades of experience 00:04:41.949 --> 00:04:45.209 and passion creating therapeutics and regenerative 00:04:45.209 --> 00:04:51.589 biomaterials. I'm sorry to hear about your mom 00:04:51.589 --> 00:04:57.290 and your family. It sounds like you went through 00:04:57.290 --> 00:05:01.949 a very difficult time. to almost reprogram and 00:05:01.949 --> 00:05:05.889 rewire your thinking and your purpose to a different 00:05:05.889 --> 00:05:10.089 mission. If you're open, maybe talk to me about 00:05:10.089 --> 00:05:15.470 how did you think about purpose in life and how 00:05:15.470 --> 00:05:19.089 did that translate to different career opportunities 00:05:19.089 --> 00:05:26.149 you undertook before? It seems like you did amazing. 00:05:26.389 --> 00:05:30.810 work even before the COVID pandemic, and you 00:05:30.810 --> 00:05:34.430 continue to do amazing work after. To me, it 00:05:34.430 --> 00:05:37.329 looks almost like a linear trajectory, if I'm 00:05:37.329 --> 00:05:40.810 being frank with you, although I'll be in different 00:05:40.810 --> 00:05:44.850 industries and different radicals. How do you 00:05:44.850 --> 00:05:47.310 think about purpose now? And what advice do you 00:05:47.310 --> 00:05:50.730 have to say a 20 -year -old Nikki, if you had 00:05:50.730 --> 00:05:53.610 a chance to talk to her, what would you tell 00:05:53.610 --> 00:05:58.100 her about? purpose and maybe let's, you know, 00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:00.139 feel free to go into the personal side of things 00:06:00.139 --> 00:06:03.519 as well, but if you can give a synopsis on the 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:07.370 career or the work side of things as well. Well, 00:06:07.629 --> 00:06:10.870 thanks, Rashad. I had been blessed with a very 00:06:10.870 --> 00:06:13.470 good career. I was good at what I did before. 00:06:13.470 --> 00:06:16.170 I was an executive leadership, particularly at 00:06:16.170 --> 00:06:19.269 the intersection of academia and entrepreneurship. 00:06:19.509 --> 00:06:23.670 We were building businesses spinning out of academia 00:06:23.670 --> 00:06:29.149 to actually scale up higher education. This was 00:06:29.149 --> 00:06:31.509 with the growth of online learning, with the 00:06:31.509 --> 00:06:37.050 growth of digital. textbooks, and the growth 00:06:37.050 --> 00:06:40.029 of competency -based education. So we were really 00:06:40.029 --> 00:06:42.389 one of the pioneers that ended up building an 00:06:42.389 --> 00:06:44.769 organization that was sold to University of Massachusetts 00:06:44.769 --> 00:06:49.470 in 2021. And so the educational mission, again, 00:06:49.910 --> 00:06:53.430 it ties back to a sense of purpose, a contribution 00:06:53.430 --> 00:06:59.310 to the world leadership. At the same time, I 00:06:59.310 --> 00:07:04.209 think, in the course of that career, which was 00:07:04.209 --> 00:07:06.750 very meaningful. I think we all reach these certain 00:07:06.750 --> 00:07:10.269 plateaus where you know that you're very good 00:07:10.269 --> 00:07:14.769 at it, but you're not learning more, and that 00:07:14.769 --> 00:07:18.350 the thing more that you should be doing may be 00:07:18.350 --> 00:07:22.089 outside of your comfort zone. And so I had reached 00:07:22.089 --> 00:07:25.509 that point at several different stages in my 00:07:25.509 --> 00:07:29.230 career. And I would always respond to that by 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:33.199 stepping back and then seeing, given where I 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:37.860 am right now, what can I do to explore these 00:07:37.860 --> 00:07:42.639 other aspects or talents that I want to cultivate? 00:07:43.579 --> 00:07:46.800 And who are the people that I should be doing 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:49.620 that with? And that actually led me to a lot 00:07:49.620 --> 00:07:52.660 of my angel investing too. So prior to coming 00:07:52.660 --> 00:07:55.839 on board with Swaza, I had been doing a number 00:07:55.839 --> 00:08:02.060 of investments. investor with a little I, but 00:08:02.060 --> 00:08:05.300 you know, I had had the fortune of being just 00:08:05.300 --> 00:08:08.160 being in the Silicon Valley, right, persisting, 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:10.519 getting getting some wins in that that area, 00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:13.319 which then, you know, rolled into my entrepreneurial 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:17.139 journey at swaza. But to tell the 20 year old 00:08:17.139 --> 00:08:21.860 self, I actually have one of the really profound 00:08:21.860 --> 00:08:24.199 joys that I have is when I talk to young people. 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:26.399 A couple of years ago, I was invited to University 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:28.819 of Chicago at the Booth School of Business to 00:08:28.819 --> 00:08:30.759 meet with students there and talk to them about 00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:33.759 their journeys. And what I actually told those 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:36.799 students, and this is something that I did after 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:40.899 that profound year in 2020 at the end, was I 00:08:40.899 --> 00:08:45.879 sat and I made a list of everything that I wanted 00:08:45.879 --> 00:08:55.360 to do, be, and see like in terms of achievement 00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:58.940 and these are not necessarily a career achievements, 00:08:58.940 --> 00:09:02.759 but I didn't want to die before I knew this list 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:07.299 of things that I had touched upon them and. It 00:09:07.299 --> 00:09:09.980 and it had to be a very honest list. It wasn't 00:09:09.980 --> 00:09:12.100 about what would look good to somebody on the 00:09:12.100 --> 00:09:16.159 outside. You know, the house car, everything 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:18.679 that it wasn't from the outside in. It was from 00:09:18.679 --> 00:09:21.299 the inside out and having to sit and very be 00:09:21.299 --> 00:09:25.399 very honest with that list. And I sat at one 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:28.320 point and I wrote and I kept writing and I kept 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:33.720 writing just each line a different thing until 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:37.139 I found myself starting to repeat things. That 00:09:37.139 --> 00:09:42.279 means I had exhausted that. And that became what 00:09:42.279 --> 00:09:47.360 I call the list, not very creative. But the interesting 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:51.379 thing is when I committed to that sense of vision, 00:09:51.820 --> 00:09:56.799 that real true heart list, that's when everything 00:09:56.799 --> 00:09:59.620 really shifted for me that brought me to this 00:09:59.620 --> 00:10:03.549 part of my journey. Some of the things on the 00:10:03.549 --> 00:10:06.250 list were actually quite outlandish and ridiculous, 00:10:06.610 --> 00:10:08.509 like things I would have never imagined happening, 00:10:09.110 --> 00:10:14.149 but they felt truly aspirational to me. And the 00:10:14.149 --> 00:10:16.190 interesting thing is that over the course of 00:10:16.190 --> 00:10:18.750 time, I started noticing even those outlandish 00:10:18.750 --> 00:10:21.850 things on the list actually start to happen, 00:10:21.889 --> 00:10:24.889 because there was a fundamental truth, I think, 00:10:25.309 --> 00:10:29.659 from the inside out and then connecting. With 00:10:29.659 --> 00:10:31.919 the world that you live in and the life that 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:34.639 that you you live in it there's there's an alignment 00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:38.320 there so i tell young people. Spend time making 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:42.679 that list and be 100 % honest with yourself and 00:10:42.679 --> 00:10:45.080 then if you think you want something stop and 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:49.960 say why do i want that is is it because i'm supposed 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:53.769 to want that. Because social media tells me to 00:10:53.769 --> 00:10:56.230 want it, or whatever, or my classmates in my 00:10:56.230 --> 00:10:57.830 grad school tell me that that's what I should 00:10:57.830 --> 00:11:02.970 aspire to, or do I really want it? And it can 00:11:02.970 --> 00:11:06.269 be simple things as well. So my list ranges from 00:11:06.269 --> 00:11:09.590 the outlandish, about building my company, et 00:11:09.590 --> 00:11:13.750 cetera, to just small daily rituals of like, 00:11:14.450 --> 00:11:16.830 well, I want to have nice flowers in my house 00:11:16.830 --> 00:11:20.230 every week. Like, down to that level of detail, 00:11:20.269 --> 00:11:22.990 it somehow is important to my soul. I put it 00:11:22.990 --> 00:11:26.710 on the list. So that's what I tell young people. 00:11:26.730 --> 00:11:28.909 And that's what I tell myself, because that was 00:11:28.909 --> 00:11:32.549 a transformative process for me. And I still, 00:11:33.269 --> 00:11:36.750 every day, every morning, I put that list in 00:11:36.750 --> 00:11:40.529 front of me. Because you need that on the entrepreneurial 00:11:40.529 --> 00:11:43.370 journey, as you probably know yourself, to remind 00:11:43.370 --> 00:11:47.009 you, what am I doing? Why? Where does this come 00:11:47.009 --> 00:11:49.980 from? and every morning I put in front of me. 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:55.019 And that's what orients my thinking that day. 00:11:57.200 --> 00:12:00.799 That's fascinating. And I'm someone who struggles 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:04.320 with routine a lot. Every day is different, and 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:08.330 I kind of like it that way. Which isn't ideal 00:12:08.330 --> 00:12:12.269 because often I get into Friday and I have 30 00:12:12.269 --> 00:12:17.289 things to do and I'm up till midnight. How do 00:12:17.289 --> 00:12:21.970 you think about routine and having say weekly 00:12:21.970 --> 00:12:25.750 or monthly goals or even daily goals as opposed 00:12:25.750 --> 00:12:29.970 to more going with the flow to an extent and 00:12:29.970 --> 00:12:32.370 just kind of seeing where the opportunities and 00:12:32.370 --> 00:12:35.480 problems lie in both here. personal and business 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:39.600 life and dealing with those as they come? Yeah, 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:41.220 that's a really good question because I think 00:12:41.220 --> 00:12:48.720 like you my natural tendency is to want to Not 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:53.159 be limited by routine and then as an entrepreneur 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:58.080 you can't really have professionally a routine 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:01.120 as you would in a corporate environment where 00:13:01.820 --> 00:13:04.799 I know that these sort of set meetings are what 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:08.039 I need to get to in order to, quote, do a good 00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:14.299 job. In a startup, which is not a company, it's 00:13:14.299 --> 00:13:16.519 a startup. It's building something that doesn't 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:21.679 exist yet. You need to get to the milestone. 00:13:21.899 --> 00:13:25.159 You need to solve the problem. You need to address 00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:28.159 the the situation, whether it's equipment in 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:31.519 your lab or if it's closing an investment. And 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:33.659 those things can be very stochastic and they 00:13:33.659 --> 00:13:37.899 are the enemy of routine. What I found probably 00:13:37.899 --> 00:13:40.740 be more helpful rather than the routine itself 00:13:40.740 --> 00:13:47.919 is to have a very stable mental model about how 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:51.360 you manage your objectives and time or effort 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:55.299 rather. And I think effort and energy That's 00:13:55.299 --> 00:13:59.559 now what I think about things more. And so I 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:02.519 was not, for example, prioritizing my health 00:14:02.519 --> 00:14:04.639 very early in the startup. It was all living 00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:07.379 very cognitively trying to just focus on the 00:14:07.379 --> 00:14:11.820 work of and the thousand different things that 00:14:11.820 --> 00:14:16.700 you need to pay attention to. But I realized 00:14:16.700 --> 00:14:20.000 that having a proper routine for my sleep, my 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.440 diet, my exercise, if I didn't have that, then 00:14:25.289 --> 00:14:29.970 I couldn't support this cognitive life that had 00:14:29.970 --> 00:14:31.870 to drive. I couldn't make the right decisions. 00:14:32.090 --> 00:14:35.870 I couldn't have the right level of energy to 00:14:35.870 --> 00:14:41.570 do what I need to do. So it was more aligning 00:14:41.570 --> 00:14:46.049 to the bigger goal and then having that be what 00:14:46.049 --> 00:14:50.240 drives the sense of routine. And then also having 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:52.980 some flexibility and then having those habits. 00:14:53.059 --> 00:14:56.299 So I like to think about things more in terms 00:14:56.299 --> 00:15:02.940 of a weekly container. What are the priorities 00:15:02.940 --> 00:15:06.940 for the week according to the role that I'm playing? 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:15.940 And I'm a student of 1990s management theory. 00:15:16.779 --> 00:15:23.200 So like the Franklin Covies of the world, in 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:28.679 1995, Intel had adopted this kind of universal 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:30.840 time management system, which was called the 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:33.039 Franklin system. This was ultimately acquired 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:36.000 by Stephen Covering and became Franklin Covey. 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:40.460 But that kind of model of having understanding 00:15:40.460 --> 00:15:46.000 what the important things are versus what's urgent. 00:15:46.730 --> 00:15:50.889 Did you explain the system to us? Yeah. So this 00:15:50.889 --> 00:15:54.450 paradigm is kind of understanding the difference 00:15:54.450 --> 00:15:56.370 between important and urgent. There are things 00:15:56.370 --> 00:15:58.870 that are both important and urgent. Those have 00:15:58.870 --> 00:16:01.950 to be top of mind. There are things that are 00:16:01.950 --> 00:16:05.730 urgent just because they're emerging contingencies 00:16:05.730 --> 00:16:09.009 and exigencies, but they're not necessarily important. 00:16:09.370 --> 00:16:11.909 They're little fires. But then there are things 00:16:11.909 --> 00:16:16.759 that are Neither important nor nor urgent or 00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:19.679 not strategic but oftentimes these take up a 00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:23.580 lot of our our time meaningless meanings pro 00:16:23.580 --> 00:16:27.610 forma kinds of things random emails but. because 00:16:27.610 --> 00:16:30.769 their activity, they can feel productive. And 00:16:30.769 --> 00:16:34.649 so the paradigm that I found very useful was, 00:16:34.750 --> 00:16:36.669 I think, one developed by Stephen Covey himself 00:16:36.669 --> 00:16:39.850 was called the big rocks, where you focus on 00:16:39.850 --> 00:16:42.629 what the big rocks are in your week, like the 00:16:42.629 --> 00:16:44.370 big things that you know have to get done that 00:16:44.370 --> 00:16:46.649 are really important. And then everything else 00:16:46.649 --> 00:16:50.509 gets organized around them. And then sort of 00:16:50.509 --> 00:16:53.669 organizing things by the week tend to be the 00:16:53.669 --> 00:16:58.250 right time scale for me, because then the day, 00:16:58.769 --> 00:17:01.629 you can slot things into the day. But as long 00:17:01.629 --> 00:17:04.029 as you feel that you are in the right direction 00:17:04.029 --> 00:17:06.910 for the week, I tend to find that that's been 00:17:06.910 --> 00:17:11.170 my sweet spot in terms of routines and in organizations. 00:17:11.450 --> 00:17:13.910 It's still a work in proc, still a work in process 00:17:13.910 --> 00:17:17.569 and progress. You know, I have colleagues who 00:17:17.569 --> 00:17:21.609 are very routinized, and I kind of admire them 00:17:21.609 --> 00:17:28.640 from afar for consistency. But that's what I 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:34.900 do for me. There's a common mantra in this world 00:17:34.900 --> 00:17:36.960 or in this ecosystem that says, you know, move 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:40.039 fast, break things, have a strong bias to action. 00:17:41.110 --> 00:17:44.430 And from an experiential perspective, I feel 00:17:44.430 --> 00:17:48.369 like that can go wrong very often in health care, 00:17:48.549 --> 00:17:51.369 because often you don't get second chances if 00:17:51.369 --> 00:17:54.950 you move fast or break things. And I have a very 00:17:54.950 --> 00:17:56.829 strong bias to action, so I have to temper this 00:17:56.829 --> 00:18:01.150 bias. Sometimes I need to plan a bit more before 00:18:01.150 --> 00:18:05.480 I launch a new product or even simple things 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:08.180 like editing this podcast. I need to spend some 00:18:08.180 --> 00:18:12.200 time editing it and listening to it, coming up 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:16.279 with some promotional materials. How do you think 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:19.960 about bias to action versus bias to planning? 00:18:20.740 --> 00:18:23.819 I like Adam Grant's philosophy of moderate procrastination 00:18:23.819 --> 00:18:27.519 here. I don't know if I like it because that 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:30.619 resonates with me, but how do you think about 00:18:30.619 --> 00:18:35.940 kind of these two opposites of planning or just 00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:40.920 acting right away? I think probably my experience 00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:44.920 is that overall a bias towards action tends to 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:49.480 move the ball down the field. But a bias towards 00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:53.160 action isn't an excuse for lack of very intentional 00:18:53.579 --> 00:18:56.240 thinking and planning because you can move the 00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:58.380 ball the wrong direction. You could score the 00:18:58.380 --> 00:19:02.519 wrong goal, but probably on average, it's better 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:07.960 to move than to keep still. That's just been 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:14.859 my experience. I think procrastination is probably 00:19:14.859 --> 00:19:18.420 inevitable with any kind of thinking work that 00:19:18.420 --> 00:19:22.750 requires deep, deep thinking. And anywhere you're 00:19:22.750 --> 00:19:26.190 dealing with an unknown, that is, in fact, what 00:19:26.190 --> 00:19:29.970 you're mulling over. Where there could be multiple 00:19:29.970 --> 00:19:34.910 possibilities for a problem or a solution, you 00:19:34.910 --> 00:19:38.809 can't just act your way towards a solution sometimes. 00:19:38.809 --> 00:19:42.269 You have to think through, iterate, create small 00:19:42.269 --> 00:19:47.230 experiments, sort of test a hypothesis, and move 00:19:47.230 --> 00:19:52.819 forward. But I think the world as it's structured 00:19:52.819 --> 00:19:57.960 now is made for people who take action. And we 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:01.279 know this intuitively. Is it always the most 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:06.200 clever, the most competent, the most qualified 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:15.880 who win the prize or win the game? No, it's often 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:18.880 people who reach out and take. Take it right 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:25.480 and that said. You know we want we want people 00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:28.240 to be thoughtful I don't believe in breaking 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:31.700 things and we're in and you and I are in the 00:20:31.700 --> 00:20:37.220 sort of the health. You know field right where 00:20:37.220 --> 00:20:39.480 it's not about breaking things about first doing 00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:43.539 no harm and so. That's a guiding principle for 00:20:43.539 --> 00:20:46.299 us. Whatever we build, we need to make sure we 00:20:46.299 --> 00:20:50.680 spend the time. And if it takes longer, that 00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:54.920 it's 100 % absolutely safe. And it's 100 % absolutely 00:20:54.920 --> 00:20:57.799 we are confident that it's not going to cause 00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:01.460 harm. Or if there are harms, we understand every 00:21:01.460 --> 00:21:05.380 aspect of that potential harm. I think even if 00:21:05.380 --> 00:21:10.039 you're not building a medical technology, that's 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:15.059 a good stance to adopt. And I think more builders, 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:19.140 more engineers should think of that first. Why 00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:21.700 am I doing this? And what is the broader impact 00:21:21.700 --> 00:21:25.539 of what I'm doing? And therefore, I should force 00:21:25.539 --> 00:21:28.119 myself to slow down where it matters so that 00:21:28.119 --> 00:21:31.880 I don't create unintended consequences for what 00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:36.539 I build. Yeah, unintended consequences and downstream 00:21:36.539 --> 00:21:39.220 effects of what you build are critical in healthcare. 00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:42.099 You said something in the previous answer that 00:21:42.099 --> 00:21:45.740 I really like is activity can feel like progress. 00:21:45.940 --> 00:21:50.559 I feel like founders, sometimes they seek external 00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:53.019 validation more than internal validation. And 00:21:53.019 --> 00:21:55.140 by internal, I mean, internal company validation, 00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:58.900 which is, you know, does this drive revenue growth? 00:22:00.269 --> 00:22:03.069 Is the internal team aligned on the strategies 00:22:03.069 --> 00:22:06.109 we're foreseeing and is everyone happy? Is the 00:22:06.109 --> 00:22:09.829 team happy? Are we getting along? Sometimes I'll 00:22:09.829 --> 00:22:11.529 meet founders and then I see they're jumping 00:22:11.529 --> 00:22:14.329 from pitch competition to pitch competition and 00:22:14.329 --> 00:22:18.069 stage to stage and I go, oh no, these guys or 00:22:18.069 --> 00:22:21.970 these girls, they're going for the external validation 00:22:21.970 --> 00:22:26.470 of speaking on stage and winning. You know, usually 00:22:26.470 --> 00:22:29.130 these pitch competitions are $1 ,000 to $5 ,000 00:22:29.130 --> 00:22:33.569 as opposed to, and their team is staying back 00:22:33.569 --> 00:22:36.089 and working. And you can kind of see the path 00:22:36.089 --> 00:22:39.589 there. And usually it does not work out. Maybe 00:22:39.589 --> 00:22:43.049 let's give you a scenario. Let's say you got 00:22:43.049 --> 00:22:46.750 invited to JP Morgan Mainstage keynote speaker 00:22:46.750 --> 00:22:50.559 for Swaza. So something that maybe could. move 00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:52.819 the needle for revenue in some aspects, or at 00:22:52.819 --> 00:22:54.519 least from an investor perspective, although 00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:56.900 I would argue raising money is not the goal. 00:22:58.460 --> 00:23:01.660 It's a signal, but it doesn't really move the 00:23:01.660 --> 00:23:06.640 needle that much. There is some internal team 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:11.460 dynamics at play that urgently happen that kind 00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:13.359 of need your attention to fix them. You know, 00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:16.240 your co -founders are fighting or something that 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:18.960 I'm sure happens with every startup at some point. 00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:21.619 What do you pick and how do you kind of think 00:23:21.619 --> 00:23:24.880 about external validation and internal validation? 00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:27.039 And I'll kind of wrap this whole question up 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:31.019 and with one more caveat, given that marketing 00:23:31.019 --> 00:23:35.460 matters and the world that we live in is designed 00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:38.539 where people make emotional decision and organizations 00:23:38.539 --> 00:23:41.400 make emotional decisions as well. And brand and 00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:47.680 marketing is important. I think your last caveat 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:51.619 is so important and is so often under looked. 00:23:51.660 --> 00:23:55.279 And I'll get to that. But when you said JP Morgan 00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:58.799 main stage, sorry, the building can be on fire. 00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:02.579 I'll be on that main. that main stage. That's 00:24:02.579 --> 00:24:04.920 an opportunity you don't really pass up. But 00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:07.759 joking aside, that points to the bigger point, 00:24:07.819 --> 00:24:12.140 which is being selective about those stages. 00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:14.619 And you always have to tie it back to the mission 00:24:14.619 --> 00:24:16.099 of the company, what you're actually trying to 00:24:16.099 --> 00:24:22.900 achieve at that point. People and team, you're 00:24:22.900 --> 00:24:27.460 not going to achieve anything without them. making 00:24:27.460 --> 00:24:29.680 sure those things are taken care of. And we've 00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:36.680 had critical points where on the surface, all 00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:41.720 the external things were great. But I knew if 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:47.420 we didn't address some internal dynamic, that 00:24:47.420 --> 00:24:53.339 surface success was going to disappear. quickly, 00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:57.960 or it would evaporate. And so sometimes doing 00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:01.420 the deep work of really realigning everybody, 00:25:02.980 --> 00:25:09.339 and myself included, actually, is important at 00:25:09.339 --> 00:25:12.640 key touch points. And then being able to also 00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:16.380 reflect back, because oftentimes, particularly 00:25:16.380 --> 00:25:19.880 in the startup world, we're running to the next 00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:23.079 thing. We're winning, but then there's you climb 00:25:23.079 --> 00:25:24.880 one mountain. You see the seven others. You've 00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:28.599 got to climb still and you don't stop. You have 00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:32.279 to stop and reflect back because you can't keep 00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:36.880 everybody with you, right? And with this, if 00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:40.420 you can't step back and and really in gratitude, 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:44.319 see where you've come from that that that's really, 00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:48.440 really important. But your last point about. 00:25:48.680 --> 00:25:51.700 Well, the marketing and the story, I think there's 00:25:51.700 --> 00:25:56.359 obviously two extremes where when you say like, 00:25:56.420 --> 00:26:00.099 what gets measured gets done oftentimes in a 00:26:00.099 --> 00:26:05.339 very media rich environment and an information 00:26:05.339 --> 00:26:10.579 heavy environment. What you post and what seems 00:26:10.579 --> 00:26:14.839 external looks like what you're measuring. And 00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:18.539 then you create this self sustaining loop where 00:26:18.670 --> 00:26:21.730 the more you do that the more it seems like you're 00:26:21.730 --> 00:26:25.150 making progress and it it tells a good story 00:26:25.150 --> 00:26:30.349 but i i was recently in conversations with a 00:26:30.349 --> 00:26:34.089 very close friend who is the managing director 00:26:34.089 --> 00:26:37.869 of a big investment bank in new york that specializes 00:26:37.869 --> 00:26:41.630 in biotech and he offered me a cautionary tale 00:26:41.630 --> 00:26:46.390 which is from our perspective from the 45th floor 00:26:46.390 --> 00:26:49.049 of people who are going to be financing that 00:26:49.049 --> 00:26:53.369 last three rounds right before IPO or that acquisition. 00:26:54.049 --> 00:26:58.730 We see your activity as a distraction because 00:26:58.730 --> 00:27:01.750 for us we're running the core numbers on your 00:27:01.750 --> 00:27:05.890 primary program and is that particular asset 00:27:05.890 --> 00:27:09.490 going to make money and of sufficient multiples 00:27:09.490 --> 00:27:14.309 on our investment in order to justify the investment. 00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:19.940 And so it can look like and feel like you're 00:27:19.940 --> 00:27:22.759 doing a lot. But if you're ignoring your primary 00:27:22.759 --> 00:27:28.319 business and it's proper feeding and care, we 00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:30.839 are going to see that we can see it because we 00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:34.000 see it all the time. So he literally offered 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:39.559 me a top down view as a cautionary reminder that 00:27:39.559 --> 00:27:43.140 the external validation and there are a lot of 00:27:44.019 --> 00:27:47.400 It's like founder culture or hustle culture is 00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:50.539 very external, right? I'm doing so much, and 00:27:50.539 --> 00:27:53.420 I'm in this city, and I'm that city. But in the 00:27:53.420 --> 00:27:56.359 end, you're running a business. And you're not 00:27:56.359 --> 00:27:58.759 just running one business. You're running multiple 00:27:58.759 --> 00:28:01.539 potential businesses backwards and forwards, 00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:03.680 because it could be a number of different things. 00:28:04.099 --> 00:28:07.319 And my job as the CEO is to understand every 00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:10.700 business this possibly could be. and then to 00:28:10.700 --> 00:28:13.779 build both forwards and backwards simultaneously 00:28:13.779 --> 00:28:19.420 to what those strategic options are. So as long 00:28:19.420 --> 00:28:21.859 as you can always come back to the center, am 00:28:21.859 --> 00:28:24.940 I moving the right ball down the right field 00:28:24.940 --> 00:28:28.160 at the right pace? Then that's the guidepost. 00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:30.599 But you do have to check back in with yourself 00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:33.839 because you can end up spending two quarters 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:39.819 on the big world tour and get a lot of press. 00:28:40.940 --> 00:28:44.579 But if that press doesn't translate into moving 00:28:44.579 --> 00:28:47.720 the core, the core business down the field or 00:28:47.720 --> 00:28:49.759 the primary program or whatever it is that you're 00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:51.960 actually supposed to be doing at that time, it 00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:56.940 can actually just be a distraction. What is the 00:28:56.940 --> 00:29:01.859 path to exit for swaza? Yeah, so there are a 00:29:01.859 --> 00:29:06.019 couple of different strategic option so that 00:29:06.019 --> 00:29:09.779 it's all situational based on where we find ourselves 00:29:09.779 --> 00:29:12.900 at different inflection points. So our primary 00:29:12.900 --> 00:29:15.460 assets was a one, which is the nanofluid breathing 00:29:15.460 --> 00:29:20.299 aid. We're accelerating that into phase two clinical. 00:29:21.380 --> 00:29:24.940 Studies within the next eighteen months. And 00:29:24.940 --> 00:29:27.880 pending on early readout of those phase two studies 00:29:27.880 --> 00:29:31.960 there are a couple of options one is to already 00:29:31.960 --> 00:29:35.779 strategically partner with the big pharma to 00:29:35.779 --> 00:29:41.039 bring that asset to market to is to also or to 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:46.670 seek. Then. funding from the public markets to 00:29:46.670 --> 00:29:49.269 then support later clinical trials, which is 00:29:49.269 --> 00:29:53.309 sort of a classic biotech playbook. But this 00:29:53.309 --> 00:29:59.990 was pre -COVID playbook. So you and your audience 00:29:59.990 --> 00:30:02.009 may have heard of Merck's recent acquisition 00:30:02.009 --> 00:30:07.529 of Verona Therapeutics and for their first in 00:30:07.529 --> 00:30:13.799 class COPD drug. And Verona was one of these 00:30:13.799 --> 00:30:16.559 companies that had very good early phase two 00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:20.299 readout. They went public on the NASDAQ in 2017, 00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:24.200 raised $80 million, did their full clinical trials, 00:30:24.220 --> 00:30:26.839 and actually got the drug already approved in 00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:30.599 2024 by the FDA. And it was after that point 00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:33.440 that Merck went in and then acquired them for 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:38.000 $10 billion. So many multiples over what Merck 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:40.700 might have had to pay if they had come in earlier. 00:30:41.180 --> 00:30:43.519 Big pharmas, the cost of capital for them is 00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:46.940 much smaller. They can afford to completely come 00:30:46.940 --> 00:30:50.240 into a de -risked asset and acquire it later. 00:30:50.500 --> 00:30:54.799 They have the cash to do that. But that's sort 00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:59.400 of a classic. strategic option for a company 00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:04.380 like Swaza. So it really depends on the gates 00:31:04.380 --> 00:31:07.319 where you cross. What we are hoping for is nice 00:31:07.319 --> 00:31:09.900 early phase two readout. What we would like to 00:31:09.900 --> 00:31:14.059 be able to do is leverage that into much larger 00:31:14.059 --> 00:31:17.339 capitalization to be able to then fuel not only 00:31:17.339 --> 00:31:19.940 that asset, but we have a number of other programs 00:31:19.940 --> 00:31:26.099 because we have technology for wound healing, 00:31:26.180 --> 00:31:29.019 for example, to suffuse wounds and burns with 00:31:29.019 --> 00:31:32.400 oxygen, replicating the benefits of hyperbaric 00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:35.700 oxygen therapy treatment without the hyperbaric 00:31:35.700 --> 00:31:37.940 oxygen chambers. You can imagine that this can 00:31:37.940 --> 00:31:40.799 be very useful for patients with diabetic ulcers, 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:45.599 for which there actually aren't any topical specifically 00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:49.099 approved for that. Actually, you think of the 00:31:49.099 --> 00:31:54.609 current leading drugs for they actually indicate 00:31:54.609 --> 00:31:57.630 in the labeling that it's not really intended 00:31:57.630 --> 00:32:00.109 for use where there's poor vascularization, for 00:32:00.109 --> 00:32:02.470 example, which kind of defeats the point. That's 00:32:02.470 --> 00:32:05.849 an area of unmet need that we'd like to address. 00:32:06.490 --> 00:32:09.710 But we also have other advanced delivery technologies 00:32:09.710 --> 00:32:14.990 which are very promising that we want to advance. 00:32:15.069 --> 00:32:17.849 For example, being able to leverage the colon. 00:32:18.299 --> 00:32:21.519 for advanced drug delivery for a number of different 00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:26.039 indications to be able to bypass the liver. And 00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:29.400 then also, we have very advanced sublingual technologies, 00:32:29.539 --> 00:32:31.839 which we can load various peptides and molecules 00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:37.220 on. Again, minimally invasive, noninvasive, bypassing 00:32:37.220 --> 00:32:40.940 the GI tract and the liver. So inhalation route 00:32:40.940 --> 00:32:44.700 of drug delivery, also extremely promising for 00:32:44.700 --> 00:32:47.880 a number of things. So we have a number of really 00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:50.980 exciting projects that we are developing and 00:32:50.980 --> 00:32:53.740 pushing forward. And we want our first asset 00:32:53.740 --> 00:33:00.420 to be the Vanguard to be able to expand all of 00:33:00.420 --> 00:33:05.660 those technologies. For the physicians listening, 00:33:05.960 --> 00:33:09.380 I think we inherently recognize that ventilation 00:33:09.380 --> 00:33:14.180 is kind of the worst way to deliver oxygen. But 00:33:14.180 --> 00:33:18.519 we also then say, well, When we think of something 00:33:18.519 --> 00:33:24.160 like Swaza, you know, nanotherapeutics delivering 00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:27.119 oxygen to the alveoli, it sounds like science 00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:34.759 fiction. Talk to me about, yeah, just talk to 00:33:34.759 --> 00:33:38.480 me a bit more about the technology, about the 00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:41.339 delivery method, and then is the goal to then 00:33:41.339 --> 00:33:47.039 replace? ventilators and intubation and how do 00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:50.319 you kind of think about the initial clinical 00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:53.839 use case and then what's the blue ocean or blue 00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:57.819 sky scenario? Yeah, in essence what we've developed 00:33:57.819 --> 00:34:02.660 with SWASA is a topical breathing egg that comprises 00:34:02.660 --> 00:34:06.319 liquid nanoparticles that can enable dynamic 00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:09.519 gas exchange at the surface. of the lung. So 00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:12.400 we're actually addressing the physical barriers, 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:15.480 the key universal features of lung injuries. 00:34:15.539 --> 00:34:19.139 So you have fluid buildup, protein buildup, and 00:34:19.139 --> 00:34:21.579 oftentimes scar tissue at the surface, which 00:34:21.579 --> 00:34:24.980 are a physical block from oxygen coming in and 00:34:24.980 --> 00:34:28.820 carbon dioxide leaving. And so what we've done 00:34:28.820 --> 00:34:33.230 with this technology is actually leverage technology 00:34:33.230 --> 00:34:35.409 that was actually developed in the 1960s by the 00:34:35.409 --> 00:34:38.909 US Navy, where they were really interested in 00:34:38.909 --> 00:34:41.309 media that you could breathe instead of air for 00:34:41.309 --> 00:34:44.670 deep sea submarine. So the concept of liquid 00:34:44.670 --> 00:34:48.409 breathing has been long known in literature, 00:34:48.429 --> 00:34:53.590 but has been very limited in practice because, 00:34:53.670 --> 00:34:58.409 well, as mammals, land mammals, we don't want 00:34:58.409 --> 00:35:01.489 to drown in fluid in order to breathe. And so 00:35:01.489 --> 00:35:04.710 this idea of replacing air with fluid one to 00:35:04.710 --> 00:35:07.550 one was the governing paradigm for the use of 00:35:07.550 --> 00:35:11.610 these materials. Our insight and where we turn 00:35:11.610 --> 00:35:14.809 this around was to say, well, what if we didn't 00:35:14.809 --> 00:35:17.210 actually replace the air with the fluid? But 00:35:17.210 --> 00:35:20.250 what if we use the fluid and encapsulate it in 00:35:20.250 --> 00:35:22.929 such a way where we can use it as a gas shuttle? 00:35:23.659 --> 00:35:27.079 And that's what we've done with Swaza. So this 00:35:27.079 --> 00:35:29.420 may be a silly question, but do we still need 00:35:29.420 --> 00:35:33.159 to inspire and expire? Do we still need the diaphragm 00:35:33.159 --> 00:35:35.619 moving up and down for this technology to work? 00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:39.639 Yes. And so it's working with how we breathe 00:35:39.639 --> 00:35:42.920 with our negative pressure diaphragmatic breathing. 00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:46.699 So the idea is when someone is under a certain 00:35:46.699 --> 00:35:51.050 amount of respiratory distress, if we can Use 00:35:51.050 --> 00:35:53.170 the diaphragmatic breathing, which actually provides 00:35:53.170 --> 00:35:57.710 the mechanical force necessary to power the particle, 00:35:57.789 --> 00:36:01.730 so to speak, to stir them in the alveoli. Then 00:36:01.730 --> 00:36:05.809 we can enable the diffusion of gas through those 00:36:05.809 --> 00:36:09.750 liquid and fibrotic barriers, and then sustain 00:36:09.750 --> 00:36:14.449 the person on their own breathing. while their 00:36:14.449 --> 00:36:16.869 clinicians are addressing the underlying cause 00:36:16.869 --> 00:36:19.909 of the inflammation or the sepsis or whatever 00:36:19.909 --> 00:36:24.050 is actually causing the injury. So this is addressing 00:36:24.050 --> 00:36:27.409 the gas exchange part. And it has to do with 00:36:27.409 --> 00:36:31.030 actually the material's very strong affinity 00:36:31.030 --> 00:36:34.590 for carbon dioxide is actually the driver for 00:36:34.590 --> 00:36:38.070 it. But under the atmospheric and physiological 00:36:38.070 --> 00:36:41.210 conditions that you would find in a human lung, 00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:44.940 what you would be doing is actually delivering 00:36:44.940 --> 00:36:48.480 oxygen and absorbing carbon dioxide and exhaling 00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:51.119 it. Where this technology is actually very exciting 00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:54.659 for us as well is that because it sequesters 00:36:54.659 --> 00:36:57.420 carbon dioxide in a situation where you have 00:36:57.420 --> 00:37:01.400 a hypercapnia or something like a COPD exacerbation, 00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:03.760 and this is when we're thinking blue sky, which 00:37:03.760 --> 00:37:07.230 is that could be very, very useful. in dealing 00:37:07.230 --> 00:37:09.630 with those specific conditions and helping provide 00:37:09.630 --> 00:37:12.250 relief for those patients. But it was designed 00:37:12.250 --> 00:37:15.250 to be a breathing aid that could be used in austere 00:37:15.250 --> 00:37:18.010 environments. It's nebulized with simple jet 00:37:18.010 --> 00:37:20.150 nebulizers. Or basically, we actually have a 00:37:20.150 --> 00:37:22.949 device that's simple compressed air device, solar 00:37:22.949 --> 00:37:26.510 powered, battery powered, that if you were out 00:37:26.510 --> 00:37:31.349 in an area where you didn't have much infrastructure 00:37:31.349 --> 00:37:34.989 clinically, you could still apply this material. 00:37:36.380 --> 00:37:40.280 Now, I think the obvious use case is healthcare, 00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:42.679 but it seems like you've come across other use 00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:48.340 cases like defense and maybe travel or deep sea 00:37:48.340 --> 00:37:51.659 diving or altitude sickness. How do you think 00:37:51.659 --> 00:37:55.460 about go to market for a solution such as this, 00:37:55.500 --> 00:37:58.579 which could have potentially different use cases? 00:38:00.030 --> 00:38:02.730 Yeah, I think those are what we're exploring 00:38:02.730 --> 00:38:07.369 now. And actually, our work with NATO and the 00:38:07.369 --> 00:38:09.570 US Department of Defense is very synergistic 00:38:09.570 --> 00:38:13.250 in that, in being able to explore, for example, 00:38:14.070 --> 00:38:24.090 uses for high altitude or dive injury, but then 00:38:24.090 --> 00:38:28.909 also more broadly in the recovery of human performance 00:38:28.909 --> 00:38:32.570 to be able to repair lung tissue, for example, 00:38:32.750 --> 00:38:37.210 after extreme exertions, or to be able to sustain, 00:38:37.210 --> 00:38:41.730 for example, VO2 max under extreme conditions. 00:38:42.170 --> 00:38:44.329 But just for the average person, for example, 00:38:44.539 --> 00:38:47.800 Many of us, I'm probably one of the people included, 00:38:48.059 --> 00:38:51.500 are at risk for being pretty hypoxemic on planes. 00:38:52.599 --> 00:38:55.619 Our blood oxygen just drops, for example. And 00:38:55.619 --> 00:38:57.360 for certain people with certain conditions, that 00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:03.139 can be very risky. For people over 65 who are 00:39:03.139 --> 00:39:05.980 very much at risk of ischemic heart disease, 00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:09.059 if you can imagine having this be portable with 00:39:09.059 --> 00:39:12.599 you in your undergoing an event to try to protect 00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:16.380 the heart tissue quickly while you get to the 00:39:16.380 --> 00:39:20.039 hospital or while you get to your clinician can 00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:22.360 mean the difference between that first heart 00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:28.739 attack and a second fatal one, for example. And 00:39:28.739 --> 00:39:32.699 so we, big picture, we envision this being something 00:39:32.699 --> 00:39:35.579 in the back of every ambulance and actually being 00:39:35.579 --> 00:39:38.480 carried by people who are at particular risk, 00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:42.599 sort of an EpiPen for oxygen, so to speak. That's 00:39:42.599 --> 00:39:45.659 sort of the big picture. And then if all the 00:39:45.659 --> 00:39:50.139 safety data, which we are confident actually 00:39:50.139 --> 00:39:53.719 can be supported by further study and validated, 00:39:55.019 --> 00:39:57.900 align, it's something that we would like to see 00:39:57.900 --> 00:40:02.000 broadly available to people for those uses. How 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:07.300 do you think about intuition when building and 00:40:07.300 --> 00:40:12.489 selling in this industry? And maybe give us an 00:40:12.489 --> 00:40:15.889 example where you encountered something while 00:40:15.889 --> 00:40:20.130 building which challenged your intuition. And 00:40:20.130 --> 00:40:23.230 how did you kind of, so for me, I used to be 00:40:23.230 --> 00:40:29.369 a very intuitive person in terms of who to hire. 00:40:29.889 --> 00:40:32.829 And I've kind of been wrong so many times. So 00:40:32.829 --> 00:40:36.670 I think vibe hiring does not work, and you need 00:40:36.670 --> 00:40:40.329 a structured process. So I think it's hard to 00:40:40.329 --> 00:40:42.429 kind of know when to trust your intuition and 00:40:42.429 --> 00:40:48.050 when not to. Whereas maybe the easy or the lazy 00:40:48.050 --> 00:40:50.190 way is to always trust my intuition, because 00:40:50.190 --> 00:40:53.670 then I don't have to do the structured diligence 00:40:53.670 --> 00:40:57.230 on the back end of things. Yeah, so how do you 00:40:57.230 --> 00:41:01.679 think about intuition? And then like, yeah, just 00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:04.619 give me maybe an example where something happened 00:41:04.619 --> 00:41:07.360 and then you were like, oh, like intuitively 00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:13.739 this didn't make sense to me. Yeah. I mean, in 00:41:13.739 --> 00:41:16.840 a kind of scientific environment where there 00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:21.199 are a lot of unknowns, you often have to experiment 00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:25.260 your way forward. But I like what you said about 00:41:25.260 --> 00:41:27.340 intuition and just caused me to think, well, 00:41:27.340 --> 00:41:30.900 what do we really mean about intuition? And intuition 00:41:30.900 --> 00:41:34.500 is essentially a heuristic based on our informed 00:41:34.500 --> 00:41:41.679 choices and experiences. And so sometimes intuition 00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:45.539 can be a reflection of cognitive biases, which 00:41:45.539 --> 00:41:48.579 may not be helpful. And so I'll give you an example. 00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:53.019 I very early on in establishing the company as 00:41:53.019 --> 00:41:57.320 the investor, I did not have the plan of actually 00:41:57.320 --> 00:42:02.539 leading the company. What I did was I put in 00:42:02.539 --> 00:42:07.820 some initial capital, syndicated some investors 00:42:07.820 --> 00:42:12.400 from the Valley to come in early. And then I 00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:16.599 set about trying to hire the right CEO. And this 00:42:16.599 --> 00:42:20.280 was at the time, like late 2021, the public markets 00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:22.139 were already starting to tank a bit. And this 00:42:22.139 --> 00:42:25.460 was the very beginning of biotech winter. the 00:42:25.460 --> 00:42:27.780 early science had already been happening. So 00:42:27.780 --> 00:42:31.099 when I was calling sort of my Boston crew, Harvard 00:42:31.099 --> 00:42:34.199 Medical School crew, empty PhDs who had all the 00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:38.380 right kind of credentials done by a pharma startup 00:42:38.380 --> 00:42:40.800 before, they said, hey, Nikki, we really love 00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:42.599 this technology. We think it's great. We want 00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:45.280 to support you whenever we can. We do not want 00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:47.539 to have to raise money in this environment. So 00:42:47.539 --> 00:42:49.619 if you want us on board to do that, we'll help 00:42:49.619 --> 00:42:52.719 you. But we don't want to do that. And I said, 00:42:52.780 --> 00:42:57.199 well, that's the job. Right? And then so I thought, 00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:59.780 and at that point, what my intuition had told 00:42:59.780 --> 00:43:03.780 me was, well, look, Nikki, you need to get someone 00:43:03.780 --> 00:43:08.659 who fits a certain demographic profile, a certain 00:43:08.659 --> 00:43:13.340 pedigree, a certain look, a certain type, just 00:43:13.340 --> 00:43:15.380 fill in the blank of whatever cardboard cutout 00:43:15.380 --> 00:43:18.940 you think should be that founder to be able to 00:43:18.940 --> 00:43:22.559 raise money. And that's your job is to find that. 00:43:23.300 --> 00:43:26.539 And that, quote, intuition meant I wasn't that 00:43:26.539 --> 00:43:32.579 face. I wasn't that cardboard cut out. But somehow 00:43:32.579 --> 00:43:35.400 I thought that from behind a curtain, I was going 00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:39.260 to plan the roadmap, drive the roadmap, resource 00:43:39.260 --> 00:43:41.300 it with the right people, resource it with the 00:43:41.300 --> 00:43:45.449 right team. And yet somehow this other entity 00:43:45.449 --> 00:43:47.750 out there, this person who is supposed to be 00:43:47.750 --> 00:43:50.210 that right CEO was going to raise a bunch of 00:43:50.210 --> 00:43:53.269 money for the company. That turned out to be 00:43:53.269 --> 00:43:56.829 a massive mistake. Yeah. Yeah. Given your experience, 00:43:57.449 --> 00:43:59.610 like for me, you would be the cardboard cutter 00:43:59.610 --> 00:44:05.610 and the person to raise money for anything, including 00:44:05.610 --> 00:44:10.130 SSA. Well, my intuition was informed by certain 00:44:10.130 --> 00:44:13.599 quote facts, such as only 2 % to 3 % of venture 00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:18.440 capital goes to women founded companies, much 00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:23.699 less minority women founded companies. And then 00:44:23.699 --> 00:44:27.139 we're also, we were still in the wake or the 00:44:27.139 --> 00:44:30.320 shadow of an Elizabeth home. And I'm dealing 00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:32.880 with a technology that, as you said yourself, 00:44:32.940 --> 00:44:35.500 sounds like science fiction, right? It takes 00:44:35.500 --> 00:44:39.900 some explaining, but it's very scientifically 00:44:39.900 --> 00:44:44.760 sound. But when it's category changing. So all 00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:47.280 of those things, quote, had informed my intuition 00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:52.260 in 2021. But they were all wrong on a lot of 00:44:52.260 --> 00:44:54.940 different levels as well. I thought I was being 00:44:54.940 --> 00:45:00.030 prudent, but really, it was just reinforcing 00:45:00.030 --> 00:45:06.230 these biases. And the funny thing is, I did something 00:45:06.230 --> 00:45:09.469 that I would have never advised a mentee of mine 00:45:09.469 --> 00:45:13.090 to do, which would be to recede into the background, 00:45:13.730 --> 00:45:16.610 thinking that this other strategy would make 00:45:16.610 --> 00:45:23.690 the company win. And that wasn't correct. Do 00:45:23.690 --> 00:45:27.519 you think entrepreneurship is innate? Were you 00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:30.679 always an entrepreneur, say, when you were in 00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:34.159 middle school in your teenage years, or do you 00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:37.739 think it can be learned? I would say I was always 00:45:37.739 --> 00:45:44.380 creative, slightly iconoclastic and moved outside 00:45:44.380 --> 00:45:49.099 the strictures and the structures of what was 00:45:49.099 --> 00:45:51.599 around me to create things, but I would have 00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:56.300 never labeled myself as an entrepreneur. And 00:45:56.300 --> 00:45:59.519 I've asked that same question, Rashad, are there 00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:02.280 people born to be this? I think it's along a 00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:04.039 spectrum. There are some people that you know 00:46:04.039 --> 00:46:07.199 that they could never work for anybody else, 00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:10.739 that they have to strike out on their own. But 00:46:10.739 --> 00:46:15.039 I think our current environment actually demands 00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:22.380 us all to be entrepreneurs. We don't have the 00:46:22.380 --> 00:46:29.780 stability of institutions and. Cultural and even 00:46:29.780 --> 00:46:34.639 work norms that we had even 30 years ago. So 00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:39.619 everybody now has to think in terms of the the 00:46:39.619 --> 00:46:42.679 entrepreneur and i don't want to say that rightly 00:46:42.679 --> 00:46:45.679 but i think is humans we actually are highly 00:46:45.679 --> 00:46:50.059 adaptable. We solve problems we do that every 00:46:50.059 --> 00:46:55.219 day. I say, moms are the best entrepreneurs, 00:46:55.420 --> 00:46:57.739 right? Like if you want something done, ask a 00:46:57.739 --> 00:47:01.739 busy mom, for example, because they've got to 00:47:01.739 --> 00:47:04.440 manage building up human beings what could be 00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:07.719 more complicated or complex than that. So I think 00:47:07.719 --> 00:47:10.659 I see those skills and capabilities in people 00:47:10.659 --> 00:47:17.440 every day. And I think the environment that we 00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:19.940 live in now demand more of that. And I think 00:47:19.940 --> 00:47:23.119 it's a human thing to create. And it's a human 00:47:23.119 --> 00:47:26.780 thing to build. I think we are made to be creators. 00:47:28.260 --> 00:47:31.539 We've just formed that way. We're designed that 00:47:31.539 --> 00:47:37.619 way. And so in as much as entrepreneurism is 00:47:37.619 --> 00:47:40.940 an expression of that, I think we all are naturally 00:47:40.940 --> 00:47:42.960 entrepreneurs, whether we call ourselves that 00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:48.239 or not. What do you think is the path to changing 00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:51.059 the statistic that only 2 % to 3 % of venture 00:47:51.059 --> 00:47:56.039 capital flows to women? And even substantially, 00:47:56.239 --> 00:48:01.460 I'm assuming a small minority of that flows to 00:48:01.460 --> 00:48:07.500 minority women. I wish I had a really good answer 00:48:07.500 --> 00:48:15.360 to that question. I think It's just a matter 00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:22.659 of normalizing the effort. I tend to find that 00:48:22.659 --> 00:48:26.760 separating out women founders hasn't been as 00:48:26.760 --> 00:48:29.019 effective for women founders as we think it might 00:48:29.019 --> 00:48:31.880 be, like having women only funds, for example. 00:48:32.960 --> 00:48:35.460 They tend to be under a different kind of microscope. 00:48:35.739 --> 00:48:38.480 and actually tend to be more risk averse, right? 00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:40.940 Because they have to, you know, they have to 00:48:40.940 --> 00:48:43.119 win. They have to get returns. There's also always 00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:46.500 that stigma if you're in this. So I'm a minority 00:48:46.500 --> 00:48:49.719 in India. And then I was a minority when I moved 00:48:49.719 --> 00:48:54.460 to Canada when I was 16. I was one of four brown 00:48:54.460 --> 00:48:58.639 people in my high school. Although I used to 00:48:58.639 --> 00:49:00.340 think of myself a minority. I don't think I am 00:49:00.340 --> 00:49:03.480 anymore. If you look at the CEOs of a lot of 00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:10.860 public companies. I think intuitively I agree 00:49:10.860 --> 00:49:14.440 that if there is a class of humans that is oppressed, 00:49:14.739 --> 00:49:17.639 and I agree, women and women minorities are, 00:49:18.340 --> 00:49:21.440 they need to be uplifted so they're no longer 00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:23.980 oppressed. That makes sense to me. I don't know 00:49:23.980 --> 00:49:27.460 anyone who would argue against that. I don't 00:49:27.460 --> 00:49:28.920 personally know. I'm sure there are people who 00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:33.699 would argue against that. how to do it is more 00:49:33.699 --> 00:49:36.000 difficult and I can only speak from personal 00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:40.739 experience just seeing a lot more brown male 00:49:40.739 --> 00:49:44.219 CEOs. I don't feel oppressed anymore and I'm 00:49:44.219 --> 00:49:47.039 not a minority anymore, right? And there was 00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:50.800 no category that I know of for that specific 00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:56.380 race and gender for venture funding. I think 00:49:56.380 --> 00:49:58.219 you bring up a very interesting point is having 00:49:58.219 --> 00:50:04.300 these categories does it kind of make people 00:50:04.300 --> 00:50:06.679 who belong to those categories more insecure 00:50:06.679 --> 00:50:09.860 that I got this funding or I got this job because 00:50:09.860 --> 00:50:14.519 of my demographics, but not because of my aptitude? 00:50:15.659 --> 00:50:17.760 So we would love for you to kind of maybe dig 00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:21.539 a little bit deeper and like, does it mean that 00:50:21.539 --> 00:50:23.980 we just don't do it externally and internally, 00:50:24.219 --> 00:50:28.280 you know, we still uplift people? who need to 00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:34.599 be uplifted. Yeah. I think it's both. I think 00:50:34.599 --> 00:50:41.000 you want to reach down and support talent where 00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:44.739 you find it, and then also recognize where some 00:50:44.739 --> 00:50:49.139 of those barriers and challenges might be. I 00:50:49.139 --> 00:50:52.599 was challenged recently by very profound work 00:50:52.599 --> 00:50:57.480 by my colleague, Siri Chalaxi, who is a researcher 00:50:57.480 --> 00:50:59.980 at the Harvard Kennedy School. And she just came 00:50:59.980 --> 00:51:03.719 out with a book called Make Work Fair. And it's 00:51:03.719 --> 00:51:05.960 really fascinating work. They were particularly 00:51:05.960 --> 00:51:09.719 looking at gender discrepancies, for example, 00:51:10.480 --> 00:51:14.300 in corporate leadership and latter. And they 00:51:14.300 --> 00:51:17.900 found that these very kind of data -driven interventions 00:51:17.900 --> 00:51:23.920 really worked to level things out. And it wasn't 00:51:23.920 --> 00:51:27.300 really about categorizing people and separating 00:51:27.300 --> 00:51:29.699 them into specific programs, et cetera. But it 00:51:29.699 --> 00:51:32.719 was really just creating practices just even 00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:38.599 by the way that you screen resumes and write 00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:46.019 job descriptions to not privilege any particular 00:51:46.019 --> 00:51:49.079 group, but actually make it make it more fair. 00:51:49.980 --> 00:51:55.579 And these resulted in very good outcomes for 00:51:55.579 --> 00:51:57.500 everybody involved in the organizations that 00:51:57.500 --> 00:51:59.980 they studied. And so I think there is one thing, 00:52:00.199 --> 00:52:03.320 as we are all building companies and organizations, 00:52:03.960 --> 00:52:07.860 we should be mindful about the policies and structures 00:52:07.860 --> 00:52:13.500 and who we hire. I have a number of other female 00:52:13.500 --> 00:52:17.619 CEO colleagues in biotech who are also aware 00:52:17.619 --> 00:52:20.820 of these issues. But then we talk about, for 00:52:20.820 --> 00:52:24.139 example, hiring. And then they'll, for example, 00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:29.039 pick a candidate over a really great candidate, 00:52:29.099 --> 00:52:30.900 maybe a more qualified candidate who was like 00:52:30.900 --> 00:52:34.000 a mom. But she couldn't start right at that time 00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:36.760 they wanted her to because she needed to factor 00:52:36.760 --> 00:52:40.880 in the school start times. And I thought, guys, 00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:45.840 why are we Why are we doing this? Right? Like, 00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:51.000 it's our job to think about, are we perpetuating 00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:56.639 things that actually are then holding back really 00:52:56.639 --> 00:53:02.340 great talent? Because we have these ideas that 00:53:02.340 --> 00:53:06.199 somehow our organizations would be better benefited 00:53:06.199 --> 00:53:09.900 by by some what what what difference does it 00:53:09.900 --> 00:53:12.409 make if you change that higher by like, six, 00:53:12.429 --> 00:53:15.510 eight weeks. And you got this really great person. 00:53:16.250 --> 00:53:21.869 But you're discounting her off the bat because 00:53:21.869 --> 00:53:28.530 you didn't want to take into account this one 00:53:28.530 --> 00:53:30.809 consideration. So we have to be very mindful 00:53:30.809 --> 00:53:34.469 of that. And human beings, they have babies. 00:53:35.670 --> 00:53:38.570 For example, just think on a very basic level. 00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:44.119 In most cultures around the world, the majority 00:53:44.119 --> 00:53:48.019 of that work or thinking around that falls to 00:53:48.019 --> 00:53:52.860 moms. Well, as companies, as leaders, have we 00:53:52.860 --> 00:53:55.659 factored that in? Are we ruling out talent by 00:53:55.659 --> 00:53:58.679 not being able to be flexible to ramp these really 00:53:58.679 --> 00:54:00.579 talented people? It's not even about their gender. 00:54:01.119 --> 00:54:05.840 They're talented. ramp them back into the workforce 00:54:05.840 --> 00:54:08.719 properly so that we can benefit from that talent 00:54:08.719 --> 00:54:11.099 and we create value out of that. This is not 00:54:11.099 --> 00:54:14.679 charity. This is good business. So I've thought 00:54:14.679 --> 00:54:18.139 about these questions for a while. And I think 00:54:18.139 --> 00:54:21.300 it's in building organizations too. When you're 00:54:21.300 --> 00:54:23.239 in charge of the policy and you're in charge 00:54:23.239 --> 00:54:28.099 of the hiring, not vibe hiring because we vibe 00:54:28.099 --> 00:54:31.579 with people who are like us. And when I think 00:54:31.579 --> 00:54:36.800 about our company how very different the people 00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:39.960 that were brought together are we share very 00:54:39.960 --> 00:54:43.719 similar values underneath but as people we are 00:54:43.719 --> 00:54:46.960 radically different and if it was on vibes it 00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:51.739 would not have happened and um but if it was 00:54:51.739 --> 00:54:54.880 on purpose if it's on creation of value like 00:54:54.880 --> 00:54:57.260 if we but these are the exact people that we 00:54:57.260 --> 00:55:00.780 need On board to create this thing and build 00:55:00.780 --> 00:55:03.840 it forward but it's definitely not on vibes and 00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:05.900 it's definitely not on similarities and we tend 00:55:05.900 --> 00:55:10.400 to over rotate towards. Would i be like buddies 00:55:10.400 --> 00:55:13.719 with that this person the thing is you grow into 00:55:13.719 --> 00:55:17.360 that relationship. We're built for connection 00:55:17.360 --> 00:55:19.980 and you tend to find people that you spend more 00:55:19.980 --> 00:55:23.519 time with somehow you would have never been friends 00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:26.179 with them maybe just walking across the street 00:55:26.179 --> 00:55:30.159 and meeting them but. But in a shared mission 00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:33.340 together, you're a brand of brothers. You're 00:55:33.340 --> 00:55:35.519 a band of brothers and sisters. And because you 00:55:35.519 --> 00:55:38.980 have the shared purpose. So yeah, I think being 00:55:38.980 --> 00:55:42.239 aware of our tendency towards vibe anything, 00:55:42.340 --> 00:55:45.860 right? And then stepping back and saying, hey, 00:55:45.980 --> 00:55:48.480 what if I thought about this in a more holistic 00:55:48.480 --> 00:55:53.440 way or in a bigger picture way to reflect my 00:55:53.440 --> 00:55:57.869 values in what I think is important? um, societally 00:55:57.869 --> 00:56:00.929 within my, the confines of my own company is, 00:56:00.929 --> 00:56:05.530 is a, was a place to start. I think this is a 00:56:05.530 --> 00:56:08.449 great place to end. Thanks so much for joining 00:56:08.449 --> 00:56:11.449 us today, Nikki. Rashad, it's been a real pleasure. 00:56:11.550 --> 00:56:12.469 Thanks for having me.