WEBVTT 00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:02.680 Hi everyone, I'm really excited to bring you 00:00:02.680 --> 00:00:05.559 this podcast with Dr. Sohaib Siddiqui. Sohaib 00:00:05.559 --> 00:00:08.560 is the Managing Partner at Healthcare Ventures 00:00:08.560 --> 00:00:10.859 for Kettlebuck Family Office, which is his own 00:00:10.859 --> 00:00:13.980 family office. He's also an Innovation Fellow 00:00:13.980 --> 00:00:16.910 for Women's College. He's on the advisory board 00:00:16.910 --> 00:00:20.070 of GE Healthcare. He's an entrepreneur in residence 00:00:20.070 --> 00:00:22.129 at the Faculty of Medicine and University of 00:00:22.129 --> 00:00:24.710 Toronto. He's an executive in residence at the 00:00:24.710 --> 00:00:27.309 Toronto Innovation Acceleration Partners and 00:00:27.309 --> 00:00:29.929 he's the chief executive officer of Medley Therapeutics. 00:00:30.570 --> 00:00:33.509 We had an amazing discussion and we talked about 00:00:33.509 --> 00:00:35.829 what he looks for in general partners and funds, 00:00:36.289 --> 00:00:39.329 what he looks for in founders, upcoming tailwinds 00:00:39.329 --> 00:00:42.689 in healthcare investing. Is charm or aptitude 00:00:42.689 --> 00:00:45.350 a better predictor of success and founders and 00:00:45.350 --> 00:00:48.009 outsiders innovate in healthcare? Is contrary 00:00:48.009 --> 00:00:50.130 an opinion in healthcare and much more. I hope 00:00:50.130 --> 00:00:52.049 you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. 00:00:52.189 --> 00:00:56.229 Thank you. Hi, it was great to have you here 00:00:56.229 --> 00:00:59.450 today. Thanks for joining me. Thanks for having 00:00:59.450 --> 00:01:02.829 me. I really appreciate it. To get started, I'd 00:01:02.829 --> 00:01:05.469 love for you to talk about your childhood. Our 00:01:05.469 --> 00:01:08.299 childhood defines us in some ways. There are 00:01:08.299 --> 00:01:10.219 some things we learn from our childhood which 00:01:10.219 --> 00:01:11.700 help us, and there are some things at times we 00:01:11.700 --> 00:01:14.739 have to unlearn from our childhood. Talk to me 00:01:14.739 --> 00:01:16.599 about your childhood and talk to me about how 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:20.760 it has shaped you into who you are today. Sure. 00:01:20.859 --> 00:01:26.040 No, thank you. So, my childhood, I would say, 00:01:26.180 --> 00:01:30.180 I think I was blessed to have an overall good 00:01:30.180 --> 00:01:33.040 childhood. But having said that, I think I saw 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:35.760 quite a bit of adversity over time. So, I was 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:38.840 born in Boksan originally. I spent a few months 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:41.099 there. So I don't really recall much of it, to 00:01:41.099 --> 00:01:44.060 be honest. My family moved a couple of times. 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:46.359 My dad was in some of the banking industry and 00:01:46.359 --> 00:01:49.519 had a few moves. So I lived in Egypt for a couple 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:52.140 of years. I lived in England for a couple of 00:01:52.140 --> 00:01:54.959 years, all kind of in my very, very early days. 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:57.799 So I only have a few fleeting moments of kind 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:01.359 of recollection of any one of those places. Apparently 00:02:01.359 --> 00:02:03.900 Arabic was one of the... first languages I began 00:02:03.900 --> 00:02:06.799 to acquire as a toddler. I don't remember any 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:10.060 of it anymore really, but then we came to Canada 00:02:10.060 --> 00:02:13.979 in the early 90s and you know it was kind of 00:02:13.979 --> 00:02:16.919 a serendipitous move for my parents. You know 00:02:16.919 --> 00:02:20.639 they applied for immigration in a few countries 00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:22.560 and Canada was kind of the first one that came 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:25.620 up and very typical to the immigrant story where 00:02:25.620 --> 00:02:28.710 you know didn't have a lot of money. uh parents 00:02:28.710 --> 00:02:30.990 looking for a better life you know they really 00:02:30.990 --> 00:02:34.210 struggled they really sacrificed um you know 00:02:34.210 --> 00:02:36.409 just in the first few months of moving into canada 00:02:36.409 --> 00:02:39.009 we moved in a very very cold environment that 00:02:39.009 --> 00:02:40.770 we weren't used to as a family that's a shock 00:02:40.770 --> 00:02:44.310 to the system um my dad three months four months 00:02:44.310 --> 00:02:47.590 into working a job actually one evening got t 00:02:47.590 --> 00:02:51.050 -boned by a drunk driver uh had a fairly you 00:02:51.050 --> 00:02:54.110 know pretty extensive accident a couple months 00:02:54.110 --> 00:02:57.219 later my grandfather passed away I was sick, 00:02:57.319 --> 00:02:59.560 I needed surgery. So like the first year in Canada 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:01.939 was kind of just this concept of when it rains 00:03:01.939 --> 00:03:06.139 it pours. And really, my parents struggled. Many, 00:03:06.180 --> 00:03:09.259 many years, I, you know, I witnessed my family 00:03:09.259 --> 00:03:13.560 struggle a lot. And, you know, it was a big reset 00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:17.840 for our family. But having said that, looking 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:21.780 back at it, I don't think I appreciated the struggle 00:03:21.780 --> 00:03:25.550 at that time. I don't think I, you know, I was 00:03:25.550 --> 00:03:29.150 never felt, you know, my childhood, I guess, 00:03:29.210 --> 00:03:33.509 was in a way that I don't think I felt, you know, 00:03:33.729 --> 00:03:36.849 poor or lacking of kind of support and resources. 00:03:36.930 --> 00:03:38.409 I think my parents were really good. I think 00:03:38.409 --> 00:03:41.889 they made the best of, they could. So, you know, 00:03:41.889 --> 00:03:44.770 they gave me the best they could afford. They 00:03:44.770 --> 00:03:47.810 sent me to a good school. You know, my wishes 00:03:47.810 --> 00:03:50.409 as a kid growing up, they fulfilled to the best 00:03:50.409 --> 00:03:53.330 of their ability now. And, you know, it does 00:03:53.330 --> 00:03:55.930 shape you, right? It sort of appreciating the 00:03:55.930 --> 00:03:58.469 fortitude and the kind of focus and diligence 00:03:58.469 --> 00:04:01.849 of my parents working around the clock to make 00:04:01.849 --> 00:04:03.969 the next generation better. And that's kind of 00:04:03.969 --> 00:04:06.330 something that I aspire to with my kids. I've 00:04:06.330 --> 00:04:10.849 got two young daughters now. I would say their 00:04:10.849 --> 00:04:13.069 upbringing is better than my upbringing. And 00:04:13.069 --> 00:04:14.849 I think every subsequent generation, I think 00:04:14.849 --> 00:04:17.250 everyone hopes that the next generation is just... 00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:20.519 that much more privilege. So, and I think that 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:22.600 kind of is what kind of drives me in my career, 00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:24.600 right? It's like, you know, I want intellectual 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:26.800 stimulation, but I want to be able to spend time 00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:30.459 with my family. I want to provide a good life 00:04:30.459 --> 00:04:32.240 for my family. So I think the goals are pretty 00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:34.879 common, right? I think it's appreciating the 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:37.800 struggle on how it shapes you for the good time. 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:42.680 So unconsciously does really drive a lot of the 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:45.699 push and drive that I have to do the best that 00:04:45.699 --> 00:04:51.240 I can. for myself. It's a common theme I find 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:54.959 in people I speak with is they have moved a lot 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:57.279 in their childhood and they have been through 00:04:57.279 --> 00:05:00.439 hardship. It's something I think about a lot 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:03.500 and I have two young daughters as well as I want 00:05:03.500 --> 00:05:07.000 to give them a very comfortable life. Do you 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:11.199 think it's necessary to have hardship in life 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:15.540 and do you think the degree of hardship correlates 00:05:15.540 --> 00:05:18.850 with the degree of perseverance and grit you 00:05:18.850 --> 00:05:25.490 develop later on? I mean, look, like people's 00:05:25.490 --> 00:05:28.870 lives are relative. The word hardship is a relative 00:05:28.870 --> 00:05:33.569 concept. You know, I would view many things in 00:05:33.569 --> 00:05:35.889 my life as a hardship, but in a relative sense, 00:05:36.209 --> 00:05:39.629 I'm very privileged. But my struggles are different 00:05:39.629 --> 00:05:41.870 than other people's struggles. I mean, you and 00:05:41.870 --> 00:05:43.889 I, we're both clinicians. I mean, I would argue 00:05:44.250 --> 00:05:47.670 being a clinician is a hardship. But to the other 00:05:47.670 --> 00:05:49.990 person, their dream was to become a clinician. 00:05:51.029 --> 00:05:53.250 And that may not have transpired for many people. 00:05:53.250 --> 00:05:54.689 They always wanted to be a doctor. They wanted 00:05:54.689 --> 00:05:57.490 to be a nurse. And for whatever reason, it couldn't 00:05:57.490 --> 00:06:00.829 happen. So hardship, I think, is a relative concept. 00:06:01.350 --> 00:06:04.250 Having said that, I do think hardship is a necessary 00:06:04.250 --> 00:06:08.870 part of one's journey. I do think we're all tested 00:06:08.870 --> 00:06:13.610 in every way. I think it's unfair to compare 00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:15.779 yourselves to others, but I think it is a human 00:06:15.779 --> 00:06:17.759 trait and perhaps a human flaw. You do compare 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:20.560 yourselves to friends, peers, and how are they 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:23.600 doing? And you may notice, hey, that other person, 00:06:23.699 --> 00:06:25.360 the grass is greener on the other side, but if 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:28.100 you take it a deep down analysis, like, yeah, 00:06:28.139 --> 00:06:31.800 they might be better off in certain ways, but 00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:33.699 they may have hardships in a way that you may 00:06:33.699 --> 00:06:36.139 never even begin to kind of appreciate. So I 00:06:36.139 --> 00:06:38.500 think we're all kind of in our own journey, in 00:06:38.500 --> 00:06:41.360 our own ways we're blessed and other ways we're 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:44.579 tested. But I think the testing is important. 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:50.100 Does more hardship lead to more perseverance, 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:56.220 more grit? I don't know. I think over the years, 00:06:56.360 --> 00:07:00.579 I've kind of tried to look at it where I think 00:07:00.579 --> 00:07:04.379 I want to. I'm not saying that I do a good job 00:07:04.379 --> 00:07:08.720 at it, but I certainly aspire to appreciate people's 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:11.259 achievements. in the relative context of their 00:07:11.259 --> 00:07:14.579 environment. So if they started out with very 00:07:14.579 --> 00:07:18.360 humble beginnings, are they going to be the unicorn 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:22.439 tech star founder? Maybe, maybe not. But maybe 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:25.279 getting a regular job is a fantastic achievement. 00:07:25.420 --> 00:07:27.899 Maybe getting an undergrad degree is an exceptional 00:07:27.899 --> 00:07:29.500 achievement. Maybe the first one in their family 00:07:29.500 --> 00:07:32.279 to achieve that. I think that's a fantastic achievement. 00:07:32.699 --> 00:07:35.240 For other people, the bar maybe is different. 00:07:36.029 --> 00:07:38.709 you know, being a tenured professor at Harvard 00:07:38.709 --> 00:07:43.350 is the trap. But if you come from a family of 00:07:43.350 --> 00:07:46.829 tenured professors, like your, you know, the 00:07:46.829 --> 00:07:49.269 delta in which you have to achieve is different. 00:07:49.310 --> 00:07:51.930 So I really do try to view it in terms of like, 00:07:52.050 --> 00:07:53.829 what were the substrate that you were given? 00:07:54.370 --> 00:07:57.689 What did you do with it? How far did you achieve? 00:07:58.050 --> 00:08:01.329 So I think the objective comparison between people 00:08:01.329 --> 00:08:04.949 I think is kind of unfair. but I do try to look 00:08:04.949 --> 00:08:06.790 at it. And it does come into the entrepreneurship 00:08:06.790 --> 00:08:09.790 world too. We'll get into it in a little bit, 00:08:10.170 --> 00:08:12.689 but comparing different founders, what they had, 00:08:12.689 --> 00:08:15.370 what they made of it, what indication were they 00:08:15.370 --> 00:08:18.589 going at? Some founders are very blessed. They 00:08:18.589 --> 00:08:20.529 don't have to raise money because they've got 00:08:20.529 --> 00:08:23.069 really wealthy family and friends and others 00:08:23.069 --> 00:08:27.490 who refinance mortgages, had divorces to keep 00:08:27.490 --> 00:08:30.269 their things afloat. So I think it's relative, 00:08:30.310 --> 00:08:34.179 but I do think the perseverance part. is important 00:08:34.179 --> 00:08:35.980 and it certainly is from the entrepreneurial 00:08:35.980 --> 00:08:39.620 side of it. And I actually think the perseverance 00:08:39.620 --> 00:08:42.940 part will get into this as well. I think it's 00:08:42.940 --> 00:08:46.159 an important part of the EQ of evaluating companies 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:50.879 and founders. Can they kind of survive the marathon 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:56.659 that this whole journey is, right? Another common 00:08:56.659 --> 00:09:00.710 theme I find is entrepreneurship is innate. people 00:09:00.710 --> 00:09:03.169 who are founders were always entrepreneurial 00:09:03.169 --> 00:09:05.330 and they would say this is just how I am, this 00:09:05.330 --> 00:09:08.370 is how I'm programmed to be. Do you think entrepreneurship 00:09:08.370 --> 00:09:11.950 is innate and what was your first entrepreneurial 00:09:11.950 --> 00:09:18.769 venture? Yeah, I think, look, I think entrepreneurship 00:09:18.769 --> 00:09:23.049 is a is a byproduct of your environment, regardless 00:09:23.049 --> 00:09:26.169 of what your career path or job path has been. 00:09:27.350 --> 00:09:31.250 I mean, I think many of us work jobs and kind 00:09:31.250 --> 00:09:33.529 of at some point reach a point where like, why 00:09:33.529 --> 00:09:37.710 is my job functioning the way it is? Why am I 00:09:37.710 --> 00:09:40.429 struggling in this aspect? Or why is this particular 00:09:40.429 --> 00:09:44.309 procedure failing at 5 %? You know, I think there's 00:09:44.309 --> 00:09:45.730 certain people are like, yeah, I'm happy with 00:09:45.730 --> 00:09:47.769 that. And I'm happy with the status quo. And 00:09:47.769 --> 00:09:49.889 there's nothing wrong with it. I do think perhaps 00:09:49.889 --> 00:09:52.350 there's a subset that says, hey, ask likes to 00:09:52.350 --> 00:09:55.490 ask five more questions and be like, why is it 00:09:55.490 --> 00:09:58.419 inefficient? Why doesn't it work? If you're a 00:09:58.419 --> 00:10:00.480 clinician, why are certain patients getting more 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:03.759 sick than others? If you're in the food industry, 00:10:03.899 --> 00:10:06.639 why are certain things, why is food more expensive 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:11.799 here than other places? So I think entrepreneurship 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:14.259 is really a byproduct of the environment that 00:10:14.259 --> 00:10:16.860 you're in. And I think it forces you to think 00:10:16.860 --> 00:10:18.740 creatively, being like, look, the status quo 00:10:18.740 --> 00:10:22.039 has been like this. But if I... you know, take 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:24.740 the algorithm and change it upside down, I can 00:10:24.740 --> 00:10:27.379 do something with it. Like take clinicians, right? 00:10:27.419 --> 00:10:30.879 Like we are very trained to follow algorithms. 00:10:31.100 --> 00:10:33.340 Like that's what we have been kind of trained 00:10:33.340 --> 00:10:36.279 to do. We've memorized algorithms, we publish 00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:38.460 algorithms, we read other people's algorithms. 00:10:38.980 --> 00:10:40.879 In fact, when we fall outside of the algorithm 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:43.679 is when we get slapped on the wrist or get sued 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:46.120 or, you know, go up in front of a disciplinary 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:48.919 board. But the entrepreneurship world is actually 00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:51.000 quite the opposite. Like, let's take this algorithm. 00:10:51.639 --> 00:10:55.080 Let's tear it up. Let's understand why the algorithm, 00:10:55.299 --> 00:10:57.740 what's the blind spot in the algorithm. And can 00:10:57.740 --> 00:11:01.000 I insert a medical device, a technology, an algorithm, 00:11:01.259 --> 00:11:03.759 a therapeutic to kind of solve that delta in 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:07.000 that algorithm? And can I make an impact? Can 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:10.700 I make money? Can I scale it? Can I improve outcomes? 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:17.769 So I guess it's not for everyone. but I do think 00:11:17.769 --> 00:11:22.549 many of us fall onto it by serendipity. I wouldn't 00:11:22.549 --> 00:11:24.049 have expected to be in the career that I'm in 00:11:24.049 --> 00:11:27.710 now. It's kind of just a random assemblance of 00:11:27.710 --> 00:11:29.549 steps and ideas that have happened to get me 00:11:29.549 --> 00:11:34.990 here. Talk to me about your first entrepreneurial 00:11:34.990 --> 00:11:40.590 venture. The first one really started out as 00:11:40.590 --> 00:11:43.830 our own kind of family business. I think my dad 00:11:43.830 --> 00:11:46.419 took a similar path in his own life where He 00:11:46.419 --> 00:11:48.179 worked in a particular industry. This happened 00:11:48.179 --> 00:11:52.639 to be banking for many years. And over many years, 00:11:52.659 --> 00:11:55.159 realized, hey, I have good bosses. I have bad 00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:57.779 bosses. I have departments that work really well. 00:11:57.919 --> 00:11:59.679 I have departments that don't work very well. 00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:05.340 And whether it's a pioneering mindset or a bit 00:12:05.340 --> 00:12:07.720 of arrogance, perhaps a bit of both, at one point 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:10.879 my dad had reached a point like, I can do this 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:13.179 job better than my boss. And then I can do this 00:12:13.179 --> 00:12:17.269 job better than this bank. So actually his first 00:12:17.269 --> 00:12:20.950 entrepreneurial venture, which became the kind 00:12:20.950 --> 00:12:23.649 of the focus of our family office, was starting 00:12:23.649 --> 00:12:29.110 an Islamic bank, because that was a kind of a 00:12:29.110 --> 00:12:31.009 gap in the market that he identified. He's like, 00:12:31.070 --> 00:12:33.649 okay, there's other banks out there trying to 00:12:33.649 --> 00:12:36.250 develop, you know, banking practices in line 00:12:36.250 --> 00:12:38.769 with sort of Islamic teaching principles. They're 00:12:38.769 --> 00:12:40.750 not doing a good job at it, or they're kind of 00:12:40.750 --> 00:12:44.259 on the ball kind of do it. So that was a learning 00:12:44.259 --> 00:12:47.679 process. Did it go well? In certain ways it did. 00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:50.860 It was kind of, it was the first in Canada. Did 00:12:50.860 --> 00:12:53.159 it go smoothly? By no means it didn't go smoothly. 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:55.620 But I think, you know, that really changed the 00:12:55.620 --> 00:12:59.259 whole formula for my family and myself kind of 00:12:59.259 --> 00:13:02.039 taking a back seat in it. And I, and I, and I 00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:04.820 too kind of had that kind of exposure saying, 00:13:05.019 --> 00:13:08.379 Hey, I, you know, do a career where I learn the 00:13:08.379 --> 00:13:10.360 foundational principles, be good at that career. 00:13:10.679 --> 00:13:14.419 But then at some point, sooner or later, transition 00:13:14.419 --> 00:13:18.059 to, can I look and contribute in that career 00:13:18.059 --> 00:13:20.779 at the 30 ,000 perspective? Can I build something 00:13:20.779 --> 00:13:23.399 on my own? And that's how I kind of started to 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:27.299 build my own fund within the family office, trying 00:13:27.299 --> 00:13:29.879 to change status quo, albeit in a very small 00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:33.399 way. I don't want to overinflate what we've tried 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:37.500 to achieve, but can we do things on our own? 00:13:37.580 --> 00:13:40.259 Can we own a little piece of the pie? for our 00:13:40.259 --> 00:13:43.019 own and I think that that ownership and that 00:13:43.019 --> 00:13:47.360 kind of piece is you know it's it's kind of springboarded 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:55.980 me into a lot of the other stuff that I do. In 00:13:55.980 --> 00:13:58.960 some ways we're all born entrepreneurs we hear 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:02.220 about children endlessly asking why and it sounds 00:14:02.220 --> 00:14:04.600 like we educate them out of entrepreneurship 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:08.100 in some ways. I'd love for you to comment on 00:14:08.100 --> 00:14:11.669 that and then if you can go deeper into the thesis 00:14:11.669 --> 00:14:15.169 of your fund? What are you investing in? What 00:14:15.169 --> 00:14:22.370 stage? Yeah, no, I think, you know, for many 00:14:22.370 --> 00:14:25.049 years, I think standard education really does 00:14:25.049 --> 00:14:28.769 teach you to follow a very predictable path, 00:14:29.330 --> 00:14:33.950 right? High school, go to undergrad, maybe you 00:14:33.950 --> 00:14:36.639 do a master's, you do some advanced degree. Maybe 00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:39.320 you go do an MBA, grad school, PhD, like it's 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:42.440 a very linear path and job opportunities kind 00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:45.399 of follow that. Like if you want X number of 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:47.179 dollars, you get an undergrad degree. If you 00:14:47.179 --> 00:14:48.899 want a little bit more and more responsibilities, 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:51.720 you go to a master's degree. I think that was 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:55.159 the case maybe 20, 30, 40 years ago. I think 00:14:55.159 --> 00:14:57.440 the job market and expectation is very, very 00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:00.419 different now. And, you know, growing up, maybe 00:15:00.419 --> 00:15:02.500 I asked, you know, those kinds of questions and 00:15:02.500 --> 00:15:04.500 I was told, no, no, don't think too creatively. 00:15:04.990 --> 00:15:07.269 fall in line because that's the predictable piece. 00:15:07.690 --> 00:15:09.370 I think, once again, going back to my upbringing, 00:15:09.649 --> 00:15:11.649 because we were immigrants, because we struggled, 00:15:12.169 --> 00:15:14.590 I think a lot of the kind of emphasis on the 00:15:14.590 --> 00:15:17.509 career path was more driven out of insecurity. 00:15:18.070 --> 00:15:20.269 Like, hey, I want you to have a stable career, 00:15:20.350 --> 00:15:23.409 so pick a stable path. In our culture, it's often 00:15:23.409 --> 00:15:25.570 a doctor, it's a lawyer, it's an engineer, it's 00:15:25.570 --> 00:15:27.909 an accountant. These are predictable, stable 00:15:27.909 --> 00:15:30.730 paths. Doing anything deviating from that is 00:15:30.730 --> 00:15:34.360 kind of seemed as too risky, unpredictable. you 00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:36.639 know, how are you going to, so it's really, you 00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:38.799 know, not for many nefarious intent, but it's, 00:15:38.820 --> 00:15:40.559 it's, I think, a byproduct or the crush that 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:45.940 you develop from, you know, insecurity of financial 00:15:45.940 --> 00:15:49.100 instability that were kind of taught to, you 00:15:49.100 --> 00:15:51.960 know, don't ask too many questions, put your 00:15:51.960 --> 00:15:54.299 head down, study, get good grades, get good marks, 00:15:54.500 --> 00:15:57.000 and like move on to the next thing. And I think 00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:59.019 it's been a big career shift, even when I did 00:15:59.019 --> 00:16:02.320 it. It's been about six, seven years now. In 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:04.580 the beginning, a lot of my colleagues who are 00:16:04.580 --> 00:16:07.620 positions or in sort of the life science PhDs, 00:16:07.620 --> 00:16:10.840 they're all like, hey, what's going on? Is everything 00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:15.279 okay at home? Why did you study so hard and kind 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:17.279 of leave that all aside to do what you're doing 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:20.919 now? I don't think they understood. Now, I think 00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:24.899 it's much more common for folks to have a couple 00:16:24.899 --> 00:16:26.759 of different career changes in their life. It's 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:29.450 very rare now that you find people I've worked 00:16:29.450 --> 00:16:36.610 at one job nine to five for 55 years. So it's 00:16:36.610 --> 00:16:40.850 changing. And then going to your second question 00:16:40.850 --> 00:16:44.350 on kind of the portfolio construction. So I split 00:16:44.350 --> 00:16:48.470 my time across a few different funds. One is 00:16:48.470 --> 00:16:51.210 kind of private equity family office. The other 00:16:51.210 --> 00:16:53.970 is kind of an organization called Toronto Innovation 00:16:53.970 --> 00:16:57.710 Acceleration Partners. that works with academic 00:16:57.710 --> 00:17:00.789 institutions and spinning out IP from those institutions. 00:17:01.529 --> 00:17:03.990 And then I advise a few kind of traditional venture 00:17:03.990 --> 00:17:06.069 funds that you're kind of bread and butter ones. 00:17:06.529 --> 00:17:08.289 They're all in sort of the healthcare space that 00:17:08.289 --> 00:17:11.849 is kind of my, I don't know a lot of things, 00:17:11.970 --> 00:17:15.349 but healthcare is one where I think I can at 00:17:15.349 --> 00:17:17.670 least take a crack at it just with my background. 00:17:18.970 --> 00:17:22.420 With all those funds, it's typically, well, I 00:17:22.420 --> 00:17:24.680 run the gamut. I think a good chunk of my time 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:28.720 is spent on very early stage companies. I would 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:30.259 say some of them aren't even companies, they're 00:17:30.259 --> 00:17:32.799 ideas. But part of my job, especially at TIAP, 00:17:32.859 --> 00:17:37.319 is to take IP. So forget revenue, forget regulatory 00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:40.000 reimbursements. Someone has a molecule, someone 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:43.039 has an algorithm, a device, a prototype, and 00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:45.380 they're like, what can I do with this? And it's 00:17:45.380 --> 00:17:49.019 my job to say, okay, does this make sense? would 00:17:49.019 --> 00:17:52.740 a doctor, nurse, physiotherapist use this? Would 00:17:52.740 --> 00:17:56.539 they pay for it? Is this reimbursable? Is this 00:17:56.539 --> 00:17:59.859 going to be regulated? Who's the right CEO to 00:17:59.859 --> 00:18:02.500 bring into the fold? Are investors going to get 00:18:02.500 --> 00:18:04.420 interested in it? So it's really company creation 00:18:04.420 --> 00:18:09.039 from its foundation. It's very challenging. There's 00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:13.019 no formula to it, once again. No company is like 00:18:13.019 --> 00:18:16.660 the next company. It's really kind of the creative 00:18:16.660 --> 00:18:21.029 part to it. So I like that part of it because 00:18:21.029 --> 00:18:24.349 I think building companies gives you an appreciation 00:18:24.349 --> 00:18:26.690 for existing companies, understanding how to 00:18:26.690 --> 00:18:28.890 create companies. I think when you look at well 00:18:28.890 --> 00:18:30.549 -run companies, you can dissect them a little 00:18:30.549 --> 00:18:33.410 bit better and you can say, hey, I know how to 00:18:33.410 --> 00:18:35.490 build companies like you. And these were the 00:18:35.490 --> 00:18:37.990 12 steps I took. Did you take these 12 steps? 00:18:38.069 --> 00:18:40.910 Did you take nine steps? Or did you take 15 steps? 00:18:40.970 --> 00:18:42.890 Did you do three more things I never thought 00:18:42.890 --> 00:18:46.009 you should do? So I like to spend my time in 00:18:46.009 --> 00:18:49.289 like the very early sandbox thing because it's 00:18:49.289 --> 00:18:51.569 intellectually stimulating, it's incredibly difficult, 00:18:51.910 --> 00:18:54.309 but I think it gives you good didactic knowledge 00:18:54.309 --> 00:18:58.089 on how to build companies. And then the rest 00:18:58.089 --> 00:19:00.130 of my time, I'd say 50 % of my time, the remainder 00:19:00.130 --> 00:19:02.789 of 50 is probably spent in sort of your typical 00:19:02.789 --> 00:19:08.910 seed series A kind of things. I think for me, 00:19:09.109 --> 00:19:11.710 When I look at venture funding, I like to spend 00:19:11.710 --> 00:19:15.210 time in companies where I think I can add value 00:19:15.210 --> 00:19:18.470 intellectually. If there's a company that's kind 00:19:18.470 --> 00:19:21.289 of gone public or they've raised 300 million 00:19:21.289 --> 00:19:24.490 bucks, they're much smarter than me. Not that 00:19:24.490 --> 00:19:27.170 I'm very smart, but I feel my value intellectually 00:19:27.170 --> 00:19:29.950 just declines with time. And I'm happy to do 00:19:29.950 --> 00:19:32.769 that. If I'm of no value to a company, I think 00:19:32.769 --> 00:19:36.049 I've done my job because they have much better, 00:19:36.309 --> 00:19:38.359 brighter, smarter... you know, bigger pockets 00:19:38.359 --> 00:19:41.140 of checks to kind of chase after. That's why 00:19:41.140 --> 00:19:42.720 I like the early stage, because, you know, a 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:44.839 founder is like, Hey, like, should I build this 00:19:44.839 --> 00:19:47.039 for the OR or should it be built for the emergency 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:50.440 department? And that kind of, you know, objective 00:19:50.440 --> 00:19:53.099 and creative exercises is what really kind of 00:19:53.099 --> 00:19:55.519 simulates me. It raised 300 million bucks. We're 00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:57.240 not in, we're not asking those questions, right? 00:19:57.319 --> 00:20:00.500 We have a fully different set of problems. So, 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:03.140 um, yeah, so, so that's a long answer to your 00:20:03.140 --> 00:20:05.480 question, but yeah, definitely spend, uh, you 00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:09.839 know, I would say Series A and before is kind 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:12.940 of my expertise. And really getting a company 00:20:12.940 --> 00:20:16.259 lined up for Series A financing, just getting 00:20:16.259 --> 00:20:18.980 the house in order to make sure that they're 00:20:18.980 --> 00:20:21.579 going to be financing Series A. Because I really 00:20:21.579 --> 00:20:25.539 view Series A as like the real first grown up 00:20:25.539 --> 00:20:28.700 inflection point for a company. It certainly 00:20:28.700 --> 00:20:30.920 isn't the end of the story. But for most companies, 00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:33.240 I think that is like a major fork in the road. 00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:35.579 Can you make it to that point? Because that really 00:20:35.579 --> 00:20:38.900 signals that people are really bought into your 00:20:38.900 --> 00:20:41.819 idea, right? And now we're buying it on mass. 00:20:43.660 --> 00:20:46.339 It sounds like you're investing from pre -C to 00:20:46.339 --> 00:20:51.039 series A. And yeah, the evidence backs your experience 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:54.039 as well. There's a 12 % chance of success or 00:20:54.039 --> 00:20:57.000 of an IPO post -series A, which is a considerable 00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:03.140 percent. I find diligence in the founding team 00:21:03.140 --> 00:21:06.269 specifically Diligencing how committed they are 00:21:06.269 --> 00:21:08.589 to this idea incredibly difficult at the pre 00:21:08.589 --> 00:21:12.109 -seed stage. Talk to me about some patterns you 00:21:12.109 --> 00:21:14.970 recognize in successful and unsuccessful founders. 00:21:15.509 --> 00:21:18.269 And then what is your framework or what is your 00:21:18.269 --> 00:21:21.430 process in diligencing founders specifically 00:21:21.430 --> 00:21:24.609 at the pre -seed stage? Yeah, no, it's a good 00:21:24.609 --> 00:21:27.470 question. I wouldn't say I've cracked the code 00:21:27.470 --> 00:21:30.509 on it because I have made some good bets and 00:21:30.509 --> 00:21:33.779 I've made some terrible bets and I think frankly, 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:35.880 at some point it's just a temporal thing. Like 00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:37.660 you're going to see, you're going to see your 00:21:37.660 --> 00:21:39.400 answer over time. Time is going to be the only 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:40.779 thing that's going to actually tell you what's 00:21:40.779 --> 00:21:43.099 right or wrong. But there are certain things 00:21:43.099 --> 00:21:44.920 that I think, you know, patterns, you know, once 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:47.480 again, if Rashad, if we wanted to kind of talk 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:51.380 on that, you know, I think technical expertise 00:21:51.380 --> 00:21:56.000 is the starting point. I don't think technical 00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:00.880 expertise is the, you know, wow, differentiating 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:03.930 factor and the novelty. Like you are going to 00:22:03.930 --> 00:22:06.869 meet fantastic software developers, engineers, 00:22:07.670 --> 00:22:10.529 physicians, clinicians, you know, thoracic surgeons. 00:22:11.250 --> 00:22:13.210 Technical expertise, I think is what gets you 00:22:13.210 --> 00:22:15.410 in the door. Cause that gives you subject domain 00:22:15.410 --> 00:22:17.769 expertise to say, Hey, I am an expert in this 00:22:17.769 --> 00:22:21.549 space. And I am saying that this is a problem 00:22:21.549 --> 00:22:23.650 and this is a problem that I face. And it's a 00:22:23.650 --> 00:22:26.130 problem big enough that myself or my hospital 00:22:26.130 --> 00:22:27.650 would want to buy it. Therefore I want to build 00:22:27.650 --> 00:22:30.130 a company. So technical expertise is kind of 00:22:30.130 --> 00:22:32.730 just check. Okay, great. you can come to the 00:22:32.730 --> 00:22:35.670 table and have a conversation. So versus many 00:22:35.670 --> 00:22:38.210 founders, I think that's where they begin and 00:22:38.210 --> 00:22:40.130 they stop. They say, because I'm the technical 00:22:40.130 --> 00:22:43.170 expert, this is the beginning and end of the 00:22:43.170 --> 00:22:46.029 story. At my point, I think technical expertise 00:22:46.029 --> 00:22:48.589 is just the beginning. Now what needs to be added 00:22:48.589 --> 00:22:53.109 on top of that, right? I think that's the differentiator 00:22:53.109 --> 00:22:56.650 between okay teams and great teams is when they 00:22:56.650 --> 00:23:00.329 realize where their competency ends and the Delta 00:23:00.329 --> 00:23:03.759 where they need to fill in. So they are really 00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:07.420 good at one particular specialty. Can they understand 00:23:07.420 --> 00:23:09.420 the business? Can they understand regulatory? 00:23:09.880 --> 00:23:13.180 Can they understand reimbursement? Humans, factors, 00:23:13.420 --> 00:23:17.099 engineering, software development. Very rarely 00:23:17.099 --> 00:23:18.960 are you going to meet a person who's going to 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:22.140 be the sort of da Vinci individual who can kind 00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:24.500 of be the painter, the sculptor, the mathematician, 00:23:24.740 --> 00:23:28.299 the astronomer. Some doctors, we think we are 00:23:28.299 --> 00:23:32.779 because we're God's gift to the world, but it's 00:23:32.779 --> 00:23:35.359 very, very rare that one person has all these 00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:38.380 attributes. So I think it's having the insight 00:23:38.380 --> 00:23:41.019 of your limitations and being candid and honest 00:23:41.019 --> 00:23:43.779 with it. And often for doctors, it's easy to 00:23:43.779 --> 00:23:47.880 pick on. They don't typically make great business 00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:51.779 decisions because why should they? They have 00:23:51.779 --> 00:23:54.460 never really been trained to be good businessmen. 00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:56.950 They've been trained to be good clinicians. I'm 00:23:56.950 --> 00:23:58.930 expecting you to do something that is completely 00:23:58.930 --> 00:24:02.450 contrary to what you innately kind of been trained 00:24:02.450 --> 00:24:05.490 to. So I think it's having insight of where your 00:24:05.490 --> 00:24:08.250 limitations are. And I think most importantly 00:24:08.250 --> 00:24:12.670 is having good emotional intelligence, how to 00:24:12.670 --> 00:24:15.930 regulate yourself in rooms and conversations, 00:24:16.750 --> 00:24:21.289 keeping a temper mannerism when things get heated, 00:24:21.410 --> 00:24:24.809 when things become difficult as they will. And 00:24:24.809 --> 00:24:28.009 I think once again, that EQ, being able to engage 00:24:28.009 --> 00:24:30.910 with how do you interact with a clinician versus 00:24:30.910 --> 00:24:34.490 an investor versus a patient advocacy group that 00:24:34.490 --> 00:24:37.130 you would be dealing with versus a hospital and 00:24:37.130 --> 00:24:39.710 strategic, you cannot be the same person to these 00:24:39.710 --> 00:24:43.549 people. So it's having the EQ to navigate that. 00:24:44.069 --> 00:24:45.829 Because in the beginning, that's all you have. 00:24:46.130 --> 00:24:47.789 I don't know where the product is going to be 00:24:47.789 --> 00:24:50.769 because it's pre -seed. It's really the team 00:24:50.769 --> 00:24:55.190 and their potential ability to adapt to the adversity 00:24:55.190 --> 00:24:57.269 that they're going to face. That is a big chunk 00:24:57.269 --> 00:25:00.509 of the precede diligence. But the technology 00:25:00.509 --> 00:25:03.190 will change, it'll come, it'll fail, you know, 00:25:03.529 --> 00:25:06.849 but, you know, I think that's kind of how I approach 00:25:06.849 --> 00:25:15.710 it. So team is number one. Sorry, Yandhi. Do 00:25:15.710 --> 00:25:18.170 you think you need subject matter expertise? 00:25:18.490 --> 00:25:21.609 to be a founder and a healthcare startup? Or 00:25:21.609 --> 00:25:24.470 is this a field where outsiders can come in and 00:25:24.470 --> 00:25:32.210 that naivety is almost superpower? Yeah, I don't 00:25:32.210 --> 00:25:34.569 think there's, I mean, it might sound like a 00:25:34.569 --> 00:25:36.009 non -committal answer. I don't think there is 00:25:36.009 --> 00:25:40.970 a right answer to this. I do feel at the end 00:25:40.970 --> 00:25:44.069 of the day, you need both on the team. Now, whether 00:25:44.069 --> 00:25:47.190 that's the founder or the advisory board or the 00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:49.980 chief medical officer or the CEO, like, does 00:25:49.980 --> 00:25:52.680 the CEO need to be everything? No, by no means. 00:25:53.220 --> 00:25:57.019 If I had to take a pick for the CEO, would I 00:25:57.019 --> 00:25:59.539 want them technical competence or like more worldly 00:25:59.539 --> 00:26:02.019 knowledge? I would say worldly knowledge. Because 00:26:02.019 --> 00:26:04.960 you can always fill in technical competency specifically. 00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:08.180 But having someone who can fill in that sort 00:26:08.180 --> 00:26:10.779 of 30 ,000 foot perspective, that strategic vision, 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:14.519 the, you know, aligning stakeholders, it's not 00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:17.740 a competency that's kind of taught as a by -part 00:26:17.740 --> 00:26:20.559 of a certification or degree, you know what I 00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:23.599 mean? Like that's not a, you know, but if you're 00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:25.619 a thoracic, if I need a thoracic surgeon, well, 00:26:25.619 --> 00:26:27.920 who's done residency and fellowship in that space, 00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:30.339 they should be good enough to give you an answer 00:26:30.339 --> 00:26:32.500 in that space, right? Like I know exactly where 00:26:32.500 --> 00:26:40.500 to go to. But, you know, I do think, I do think 00:26:40.500 --> 00:26:43.859 we kind of, in healthcare, we do have a bit of 00:26:43.859 --> 00:26:47.390 a clique mentality where we will value the opinion 00:26:47.390 --> 00:26:49.170 of another clinician. If you're talking doctor 00:26:49.170 --> 00:26:51.430 to doctor, it really is going to be like, okay, 00:26:51.890 --> 00:26:54.069 you're a colleague, you've kind of been in the 00:26:54.069 --> 00:26:56.329 trenches with me, I'm going to value your opinion 00:26:56.329 --> 00:26:58.930 more over maybe someone who doesn't understand 00:26:58.930 --> 00:27:00.930 healthcare, comes in with a naive perspective 00:27:00.930 --> 00:27:04.630 and is very bright -eyed and doe -eyed and going 00:27:04.630 --> 00:27:06.710 to change the world but doesn't understand the 00:27:06.710 --> 00:27:08.990 realities. So you need a bit of both because 00:27:08.990 --> 00:27:12.309 I think we can also, clinicians can get stagnated 00:27:12.309 --> 00:27:16.700 in our ways. And we need that gentle nudge. We 00:27:16.700 --> 00:27:19.660 need the gentle nudge from folks from other industries 00:27:19.660 --> 00:27:24.279 to be like, hey, let's incorporate AI. Let's 00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:26.599 not be too scared of it. In banking, we're doing 00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:28.779 it. In defense, we're doing it. In insurance, 00:27:28.779 --> 00:27:31.500 we're doing it. Other risk adverse industries, 00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:34.359 we're much further ahead in incorporating AI. 00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:37.960 Why can't you do this in health care? What is 00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:40.140 so inherently difficult and different? It's a 00:27:40.140 --> 00:27:42.869 different problem, but incorporate it. Yeah, 00:27:42.869 --> 00:27:46.170 you need both, I think. I don't think it's one 00:27:46.170 --> 00:27:52.650 or the other. If you had to pick between a founder 00:27:52.650 --> 00:27:55.970 who is exceptionally charming, but with average 00:27:55.970 --> 00:27:59.349 aptitude, versus a founder who has exceptional 00:27:59.349 --> 00:28:03.170 aptitude, 12 .1 % in their field, but average 00:28:03.170 --> 00:28:06.490 charm, who would you pick? Yeah, I would pick 00:28:06.490 --> 00:28:12.259 the charm piece. And I would say because at least 00:28:12.259 --> 00:28:16.420 in my opinion. I think aptitude is something 00:28:16.420 --> 00:28:19.299 that can be learned over time. I think charm 00:28:19.299 --> 00:28:22.859 is perhaps more innate. You know, some people 00:28:22.859 --> 00:28:26.539 have it or you don't. I think charm is much more 00:28:26.539 --> 00:28:30.559 difficult to coach into someone. And once again, 00:28:30.740 --> 00:28:34.200 technical aptitude, I hate to say it, but technical 00:28:34.200 --> 00:28:37.720 aptitude can be outsourced. If I have a specific 00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:40.519 problem, I need to build a medical device that 00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:43.559 has such and such dimensions, I can hire technical 00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:46.920 aptitude. If I need a neurosurgeon who also has 00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:49.660 a histopathology background, I can find that 00:28:49.660 --> 00:28:54.559 someone. But charm, and really charm, I think, 00:28:54.619 --> 00:28:56.220 I mean, when I think of charm, I really think 00:28:56.220 --> 00:29:00.119 once again of EQ is not just about being nice, 00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:03.880 but someone who can rally different stakeholders. 00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:06.440 Understand the needs of different stakeholders. 00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:09.220 Be empathetic, right? Understand what does the 00:29:09.220 --> 00:29:11.559 scientific founding team mean? What does the 00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:14.599 hospital need? What does a large med device strategic 00:29:14.599 --> 00:29:17.599 need? And being able to kind of connect those 00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:21.160 bridges. That's the charming piece. That's the 00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:22.960 creative part where there is no formula. There 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:25.880 is no formal degree to do that. Now you can learn 00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:28.059 that over time. And I think people do because 00:29:28.059 --> 00:29:30.259 they've had two or three startups. They've failed 00:29:30.259 --> 00:29:33.349 a few times. They've struggled a bit. you can 00:29:33.349 --> 00:29:36.569 perhaps, maybe it's not innate, but you can get 00:29:36.569 --> 00:29:39.250 better at it. But definitely I think charm is 00:29:39.250 --> 00:29:42.690 what it is. Because ultimately it is your relationship. 00:29:42.869 --> 00:29:45.970 It is your personality that is going to kind 00:29:45.970 --> 00:29:51.150 of carry you through the tough times. And with 00:29:51.150 --> 00:29:53.009 that charm, you can hire the right people with 00:29:53.009 --> 00:29:56.150 the technical aptitude to compensate for your 00:29:56.150 --> 00:29:59.170 inherent flaws or limitations. But you can't 00:29:59.170 --> 00:30:02.920 hire charm. I don't think so. This is something 00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:07.460 I've changed my mind on, and I hesitate, but 00:30:07.460 --> 00:30:11.900 I agree. Charm is more important than aptitude. 00:30:13.339 --> 00:30:19.259 And we want to think that charm has no influence 00:30:19.259 --> 00:30:21.480 on your success, but I think that couldn't be 00:30:21.480 --> 00:30:25.160 further from the truth. If you could go back 00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:27.819 in time 10 years and talk to your 25 -year -old 00:30:27.819 --> 00:30:31.269 self. What would you say to him? And would you 00:30:31.269 --> 00:30:33.490 change anything you've done in the past 10 years 00:30:33.490 --> 00:30:36.990 if you could change one decision without it affecting 00:30:36.990 --> 00:30:41.410 other decisions? Yeah, that's a tough question. 00:30:42.809 --> 00:30:49.269 I think I would tell myself to, once again, push 00:30:49.269 --> 00:30:52.710 the boundary a little bit more. I, too, kind 00:30:52.710 --> 00:30:55.990 of fell into the pattern of just sequentially 00:30:56.779 --> 00:31:00.920 focus on the standard, the status quo, focus, 00:31:01.160 --> 00:31:03.579 get the degree, do as well in degree as possible. 00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:06.220 I didn't think creatively. I had no concept of 00:31:06.220 --> 00:31:08.680 thinking creatively, to be honest. It was just 00:31:08.680 --> 00:31:13.180 very singularly focused. While I enjoyed that 00:31:13.180 --> 00:31:16.579 time, I do think everyone needs some baseline 00:31:16.579 --> 00:31:19.799 technical competency in whatever field of thing 00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:22.680 that you're doing. I don't think no education 00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:26.900 is the answer to the world's problems. some foundational 00:31:26.900 --> 00:31:30.140 education and whatever it may be, I think you 00:31:30.140 --> 00:31:33.019 need some grounding. But I think pushing the 00:31:33.019 --> 00:31:36.180 limits, I do it now more often because I think 00:31:36.180 --> 00:31:39.680 my career and space is more forgiving and allows 00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:43.980 me to do that. But before really didn't, it was 00:31:43.980 --> 00:31:46.700 just very linearly focused and could it have 00:31:46.700 --> 00:31:49.779 changed the outcome? Could I have been better 00:31:49.779 --> 00:31:53.839 or more successful or more impactful in my career 00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:57.299 by now? probably, maybe, or maybe it was just 00:31:57.299 --> 00:31:59.380 a function of time. I don't know, I don't have 00:31:59.380 --> 00:32:03.920 that crystal ball, but I think certainly the 00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:06.740 career that I have now took a while for me to 00:32:06.740 --> 00:32:09.500 get comfortable in, even just speaking to people. 00:32:10.059 --> 00:32:12.259 As clinicians, yeah, we speak to doctors, we 00:32:12.259 --> 00:32:15.359 speak to patients, but going into a boardroom 00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:18.559 with people, interrogating you, criticizing you, 00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:22.259 getting up there, making that pitch speech, dealing 00:32:22.259 --> 00:32:26.029 with confrontation. happens a lot in the business 00:32:26.029 --> 00:32:29.609 world. In the beginning would really stress me 00:32:29.609 --> 00:32:32.289 out, would really cause a lot of angst and anxiety. 00:32:32.869 --> 00:32:36.430 Now I think I, I don't think I'm perfect, but 00:32:36.430 --> 00:32:38.529 you know, it doesn't, it doesn't bother me anymore. 00:32:38.529 --> 00:32:40.109 Cause I know it's kind of part of the course. 00:32:40.269 --> 00:32:43.609 It's like, I face it like any other problem that 00:32:43.609 --> 00:32:47.230 kind of comes towards me. So, so yeah, I think 00:32:47.230 --> 00:32:49.849 if I had done it earlier, I would be better than 00:32:49.849 --> 00:32:52.069 I am today. And ultimately you just want to be 00:32:52.069 --> 00:32:54.700 better. continuously striving to be better in 00:32:54.700 --> 00:32:58.319 your career, right? So more time in practice 00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:03.180 would have made me better than I am today. One 00:33:03.180 --> 00:33:05.819 of the biggest learnings I have from my startup 00:33:05.819 --> 00:33:09.519 is to have a structured, slow process for hiring 00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:13.700 and a fast process for firing. Do you agree with 00:33:13.700 --> 00:33:15.799 that? And does that resonate with your experience? 00:33:18.859 --> 00:33:23.869 It goes both ways, right? I think hiring is a, 00:33:25.869 --> 00:33:27.930 like in this whole business, I think the hardest 00:33:27.930 --> 00:33:31.269 part is the people. The technology, the algorithms, 00:33:31.630 --> 00:33:34.789 the pipettes into the receptors and molecule, 00:33:35.230 --> 00:33:37.309 that stuff is hard, but it's not as hard as the 00:33:37.309 --> 00:33:40.849 people. People are infinitely more complex. Figuring 00:33:40.849 --> 00:33:43.390 out a team that jives with each other, that works 00:33:43.390 --> 00:33:46.250 together, that supports each other, chemistry 00:33:46.250 --> 00:33:48.730 is aligning just from an interpersonal piece, 00:33:49.009 --> 00:33:53.019 that's really important. and one or two toxic 00:33:53.019 --> 00:33:55.779 kind of relationships, one or two toxic interactions 00:33:55.779 --> 00:33:59.420 really do derail, you know, a company. Or not 00:33:59.420 --> 00:34:01.460 even derail, it just doesn't, you know, we don't 00:34:01.460 --> 00:34:04.900 progress to the level that the organization can. 00:34:05.900 --> 00:34:08.460 Having said that, you know, I do think there 00:34:08.460 --> 00:34:10.219 is merit, sure, but if you know, if you don't 00:34:10.219 --> 00:34:13.159 fit, let's fire you quickly. That's the easiest 00:34:13.159 --> 00:34:15.739 solution. Having said that, you know, we're all 00:34:15.739 --> 00:34:18.550 kind of learning. We're all in that process. 00:34:18.710 --> 00:34:21.090 I'm sure if I went to another organization, people 00:34:21.090 --> 00:34:23.469 are like, hey, this guy doesn't know 10 of these 00:34:23.469 --> 00:34:26.329 things. He's not useful in this world. Let's 00:34:26.329 --> 00:34:31.349 get rid of him. He's not effective. But I've 00:34:31.349 --> 00:34:33.329 been given many chances over my life. I've been 00:34:33.329 --> 00:34:35.630 given many opportunities. And I've had patient 00:34:35.630 --> 00:34:39.530 people put up with my mistakes or inadequacies. 00:34:39.929 --> 00:34:41.949 If no one gave me a chance, I'd be unemployed 00:34:41.949 --> 00:34:45.269 many years after. So I do think there's a balance 00:34:45.269 --> 00:34:50.119 of, OK, Like the limitations that that person 00:34:50.119 --> 00:34:53.019 has, is that a fundamental flaw to their character 00:34:53.019 --> 00:34:56.460 or their EQ or they lack charm? Or is this something 00:34:56.460 --> 00:34:58.719 that is solvable? Is this a solvable problem? 00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:03.039 So if there's, once again, aptitude or competencies 00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:05.000 that they don't know today, let's say they don't 00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:07.300 know Excel today. Let's say they don't know how 00:35:07.300 --> 00:35:11.460 to use chat GPT today. Is this something that 00:35:11.460 --> 00:35:14.280 they can be taught over time? Yes or no. If you 00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:16.880 can teach it. fine, are you willing to invest 00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:19.579 in that person over three months, five months, 00:35:19.659 --> 00:35:23.679 six months a year? But they're still on the ball. 00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:26.559 They still show up. They're still working hard 00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:29.880 all day long. So I think there is a balance. 00:35:30.179 --> 00:35:33.659 I think, yes, getting rid of folks that don't 00:35:33.659 --> 00:35:38.739 fit the culture or the chemistry, I think that 00:35:38.739 --> 00:35:41.710 is unteachable. I think we're, you know, if you're 00:35:41.710 --> 00:35:43.429 just, if you don't work, nothing that varies. 00:35:43.750 --> 00:35:45.469 If you just don't work together, you don't work 00:35:45.469 --> 00:35:48.969 together. But I think competencies can be, you 00:35:48.969 --> 00:35:52.090 know, alleviated and kind of ironed out over 00:35:52.090 --> 00:35:55.429 time. So we do have to make an investment in 00:35:55.429 --> 00:35:58.590 people, right? You're not going to get fully 00:35:58.590 --> 00:36:02.170 baked, you know, individuals at a time. But, 00:36:02.170 --> 00:36:04.389 but yeah, I think there is a cultural difference, 00:36:04.389 --> 00:36:07.230 I think, in America and the US, I think, sorry, 00:36:07.769 --> 00:36:13.550 Canada and the US. I think Americans are, they 00:36:13.550 --> 00:36:16.329 fail fast and even employment is kind of like 00:36:16.329 --> 00:36:19.010 that too. And in Canada, we know maybe we're 00:36:19.010 --> 00:36:21.409 a little bit too nice and hold on to folks that 00:36:21.409 --> 00:36:24.090 maybe aren't the right fit. So, which can be, 00:36:24.090 --> 00:36:27.269 you know, stifling innovation too. So, it goes 00:36:27.269 --> 00:36:32.550 both ways. Yeah, scaling a service -based business, 00:36:32.789 --> 00:36:36.389 a people -based business is exponentially harder 00:36:36.389 --> 00:36:40.010 than scaling software, which is why I find VCs 00:36:40.010 --> 00:36:44.690 and investors and both me and you, we tend to 00:36:44.690 --> 00:36:46.610 deviate more towards the software businesses. 00:36:48.369 --> 00:36:52.250 Talk to me about your contrarian opinion in healthcare 00:36:52.250 --> 00:36:56.449 investing. Mine is that I think AI should replace 00:36:56.449 --> 00:36:59.170 physicians, and I speak to saying that as a physician 00:36:59.170 --> 00:37:01.809 myself. The goal of healthcare should be to provide 00:37:01.809 --> 00:37:05.170 excellent quality healthcare everywhere. The 00:37:05.170 --> 00:37:07.829 Harvard Mayo Clinic healthcare should be ubiquitous 00:37:07.829 --> 00:37:12.199 and cheaply accessible. You cannot do that if 00:37:12.199 --> 00:37:14.400 humans are involved, especially humans who need 00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:17.179 10 years of schooling and $300 ,000 in their 00:37:17.179 --> 00:37:20.159 education. The only way to do that is a software 00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:24.019 and AI which completely replaces us. So that's 00:37:24.019 --> 00:37:27.559 my contrarian opinion and I am working to make 00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:31.440 that happen. It makes my colleagues upset at 00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:33.920 times. What is your contrarian opinion in healthcare? 00:37:35.219 --> 00:37:37.500 Yeah, no, it's an interesting opinion. And you 00:37:37.500 --> 00:37:41.599 know, in your opinion, I think like, I don't 00:37:41.599 --> 00:37:44.199 think, I don't feel we'll get replaced. But I 00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:46.300 do think the nature of our job will significantly 00:37:46.300 --> 00:37:49.099 change. And I think what's expected of us will 00:37:49.099 --> 00:37:52.699 significantly change, as it does every year in 00:37:52.699 --> 00:37:54.860 medical school training. I mean, you know, even 00:37:54.860 --> 00:37:57.820 med school training. I know schools that are 00:37:57.820 --> 00:38:00.139 beginning to teach financial literacy, they're 00:38:00.139 --> 00:38:02.800 beginning to teach software development, because 00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:05.010 it's almost becoming an expectation like, 10, 00:38:05.010 --> 00:38:08.210 15 years ago, teaching research methods in medical 00:38:08.210 --> 00:38:11.849 school was like a groundbreaking idea. Now the 00:38:11.849 --> 00:38:13.989 expectation of physicians to also be researchers 00:38:13.989 --> 00:38:16.909 is kind of like, you should be. You should be 00:38:16.909 --> 00:38:19.510 contributing. You should be a deliverer of medicine 00:38:19.510 --> 00:38:20.969 and you should be the one doing the research 00:38:20.969 --> 00:38:29.449 too. So it's different. So I think my view, ironically, 00:38:30.590 --> 00:38:34.519 I don't like technology. that's too innovative. 00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:38.039 I don't like to invest in technology that is 00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:41.599 breaking the sand barrier. And maybe that's my 00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:43.980 conservative approach. But when I come back to 00:38:43.980 --> 00:38:48.239 making business decisions, making recurrent returns 00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:52.599 in a fund, I in fact don't want to invest. Ironically, 00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:54.980 even though I invest in innovation, I don't like 00:38:54.980 --> 00:38:57.659 innovative ideas that are too innovative. Because 00:38:57.659 --> 00:39:00.280 I know innovative ideas are going to take longer. 00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:02.300 They're going to be the ones that have to fight 00:39:02.489 --> 00:39:05.369 and create the codes with reimbursement for the 00:39:05.369 --> 00:39:07.849 first time. They'll be the ones having to negotiate 00:39:07.849 --> 00:39:11.170 with the FDA and justifying the whole class of 00:39:11.170 --> 00:39:14.590 their technology. And yeah, it does make for 00:39:14.590 --> 00:39:17.150 good headlines. Maybe you can get a little blurb 00:39:17.150 --> 00:39:19.750 in time. Maybe you can get a little blurb on 00:39:19.750 --> 00:39:23.610 BetaKit about this new tool that is revolutionizing 00:39:23.610 --> 00:39:27.030 health care. And we do need some of those kind 00:39:27.030 --> 00:39:29.750 of ideas. People often take Elon, whether you 00:39:29.750 --> 00:39:32.440 like him or not, but he's got some crazy ideas, 00:39:32.440 --> 00:39:34.760 but some of them are really interesting ideas. 00:39:35.320 --> 00:39:37.360 Now are they all going to work? No, many of them 00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:39.639 are going to fail. But some of them, yeah, like, 00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:42.840 I mean, I think he has, you know, commoditized 00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:45.059 electric cars in the last 10, 15 years. I think 00:39:45.059 --> 00:39:47.780 the concept of plugging a car in 20 years ago 00:39:47.780 --> 00:39:51.400 was just, you know, something you'd see on TV, 00:39:51.400 --> 00:39:54.719 but now, you know, it's growing slowly. So if 00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:57.460 I take it to healthcare, I rather invest in companies 00:39:57.460 --> 00:40:00.059 that are solving important issues. It has to 00:40:00.059 --> 00:40:02.960 be an important issue. But it might not be the 00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:05.360 one where it's transplanting a brain from one 00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:08.219 person to the next, you know, doing, you know, 00:40:08.380 --> 00:40:11.679 things in space. I like things that are boring, 00:40:12.260 --> 00:40:15.539 unsexy problems, because day to day life is, 00:40:15.539 --> 00:40:17.980 you know, repetitive, it can be mundane. But 00:40:17.980 --> 00:40:20.360 these are the problems you face every day, right? 00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:23.340 Like, you know, how do I schedule, you know, 00:40:23.480 --> 00:40:26.159 shifts in the OR effectively? How do I make sure 00:40:26.159 --> 00:40:30.219 that the the x -ray at one hospital can be efficiently 00:40:30.219 --> 00:40:32.619 transferred over to the other hospital? How do 00:40:32.619 --> 00:40:34.639 I make sure that I don't have a data breach? 00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:39.760 How do I make sure that if I have to sterilize 00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:43.420 a surgical tool, how do I do that in a cost -effective 00:40:43.420 --> 00:40:46.460 way? I'm not spending too much time. Many of 00:40:46.460 --> 00:40:48.219 these things aren't going to make headlines, 00:40:48.940 --> 00:40:51.119 but these are day -to -day problems if you're 00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:53.300 living in the clinical world that you're facing. 00:40:53.860 --> 00:40:56.719 and if someone solves it for you, yeah, it's 00:40:56.719 --> 00:40:59.800 a small piece, but it saved you $10 here, it 00:40:59.800 --> 00:41:02.719 saved infection rates, it saved potential morbidity 00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:07.519 or mortality in a patient. And sort of in the 00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:11.320 venture fund land, I can quantify the value proposition 00:41:11.320 --> 00:41:15.059 of something boring and mundane and predictable, 00:41:15.059 --> 00:41:18.900 because I know what that means. If I'm kind of 00:41:18.900 --> 00:41:21.699 trying to be like Elon and really changing the 00:41:21.699 --> 00:41:23.869 face of the earth, And maybe I'm not ambitious 00:41:23.869 --> 00:41:26.869 enough, and maybe there's other people out there 00:41:26.869 --> 00:41:29.489 who can better tackle. You need the Elans, but 00:41:29.489 --> 00:41:31.909 you need the boring folks like Zohaib to kind 00:41:31.909 --> 00:41:34.690 of tackle the recurrent problems. Because as 00:41:34.690 --> 00:41:37.750 a fund, I know that, hey, if I get a two or three 00:41:37.750 --> 00:41:41.250 or four X return on five boring problems, I'd 00:41:41.250 --> 00:41:45.230 rather have five or six decent returns on five 00:41:45.230 --> 00:41:48.269 boring problems than one fantastic return on 00:41:48.269 --> 00:41:52.039 the next thing launching to Mars. Um, and that 00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:54.239 kind of leads into portfolio composition as well, 00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:57.059 right? You know, do you want to have a portfolio 00:41:57.059 --> 00:42:00.360 that's comprised of 10 potential unicorns or 00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:02.460 do you want to say to your LPs like, you know, 00:42:02.619 --> 00:42:05.300 75 % of the time I'm going to return you two 00:42:05.300 --> 00:42:08.039 or three X on, on your money. Or do you want 00:42:08.039 --> 00:42:10.199 to say, Hey, one in 20 of my bets is going to 00:42:10.199 --> 00:42:14.320 give you a 20 X or a hundred X. Um, that's the, 00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:16.699 that's the portfolio composition angle you have 00:42:16.699 --> 00:42:20.530 to kind of, you know, way out. And you'll attract 00:42:20.530 --> 00:42:22.889 different investors, right? Venture investing 00:42:22.889 --> 00:42:27.929 is typically a risky asset class. I think people 00:42:27.929 --> 00:42:33.429 treat it as such. But I do think there's a way 00:42:33.429 --> 00:42:36.750 to improve incrementally your returns across. 00:42:36.969 --> 00:42:38.949 And I think in a portfolio, if you've got 20 00:42:38.949 --> 00:42:42.429 companies, maybe 10 % can be ultra for risky. 00:42:43.099 --> 00:42:45.619 And, you know, other things are a little bit 00:42:45.619 --> 00:42:47.840 more stable, more predictable. Some are early 00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:50.679 stage bets, some are later stage bets. So, you 00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:53.400 know, I kind of think it ties back into my kind 00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:55.780 of portfolio composition angle as well, right? 00:42:55.820 --> 00:42:59.820 You know, I like safer bets. And I do think you 00:42:59.820 --> 00:43:02.079 need technical, once again, technical expertise 00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:08.500 to be able to vet, you know, some of the unsexy 00:43:08.500 --> 00:43:11.519 kind of ideas. You need deep market expertise 00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:14.590 to know. you know, what's the price point people 00:43:14.590 --> 00:43:19.289 are willing to pay for a simple tool? Are nurses 00:43:19.289 --> 00:43:21.010 going to, you know, use this at the end of the 00:43:21.010 --> 00:43:25.269 day? Are they going to like use it? We've talked 00:43:25.269 --> 00:43:28.449 about patterns in founders. What are some patterns 00:43:28.449 --> 00:43:30.869 you've seen in successful and unsuccessful fund 00:43:30.869 --> 00:43:35.949 managers or VCs over your time? Yeah, I think, 00:43:36.070 --> 00:43:40.829 you know, it's and I would break it down in two 00:43:40.829 --> 00:43:44.650 ways. One is their investing mindset. And I would 00:43:44.650 --> 00:43:46.489 bring like that's one topic. And then the other 00:43:46.489 --> 00:43:49.469 topic would be kind of their fundraising perspective 00:43:49.469 --> 00:43:52.309 as well, how they feel about fundraising is like 00:43:52.309 --> 00:43:54.150 the startups, the fund managers also have to 00:43:54.150 --> 00:43:56.429 fundraise, right? So, you know, I think there's 00:43:56.429 --> 00:43:59.429 a degree of empathy that the funds kind of established 00:43:59.429 --> 00:44:01.130 because they also go through a fundraising piece. 00:44:01.750 --> 00:44:04.010 I think in terms of investing too, I think, you 00:44:04.010 --> 00:44:08.289 know, I think if you don't have the subject matter 00:44:08.289 --> 00:44:12.940 expertise, it's very easy to chase the new shiny, 00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:19.300 glamorous thing. I think sometimes venture funds, 00:44:21.340 --> 00:44:24.000 once again, going after the thing that Elon Musk 00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:26.579 is investing in. I'm not against Elon Musk and 00:44:26.579 --> 00:44:28.800 his investment thesis by no means. I keep picking 00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:31.340 on him. But I think going after the new shiny 00:44:31.340 --> 00:44:34.199 thing and where healthcare is going to go, healthcare 00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:36.219 doesn't move in that rate. Healthcare is a very 00:44:36.219 --> 00:44:40.519 slow moving gradual piece. It doesn't like to 00:44:40.519 --> 00:44:43.260 change. If you push the boundaries too much, 00:44:43.699 --> 00:44:46.300 you're not going to see the returns in the timeline 00:44:46.300 --> 00:44:49.420 that's going to be conducive to your fund. If 00:44:49.420 --> 00:44:51.619 you've got a 10 -year lifecycle, if you're pushing 00:44:51.619 --> 00:44:53.460 the envelope, if you're breaking the sound barrier, 00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:56.579 you're not going to see that thing built, scaled, 00:44:56.780 --> 00:44:59.739 and returned to you within 10 years. And that's 00:44:59.739 --> 00:45:02.659 going to affect your ultimate returns. So I think 00:45:02.659 --> 00:45:05.219 that's why you got to go, once again, for fund 00:45:05.219 --> 00:45:09.400 managers, figure out and I'm biased because I 00:45:09.400 --> 00:45:12.599 think this way I could be wrong, figure out the 00:45:12.599 --> 00:45:15.860 boring but problem, nagging problems, boring 00:45:15.860 --> 00:45:18.980 nagging problems that healthcare has that A, 00:45:19.059 --> 00:45:22.800 they feel it and B, they have a budget to support. 00:45:23.320 --> 00:45:25.539 Many times you and I see technologies that are 00:45:25.539 --> 00:45:29.019 really, really cool, but do the hospitals have 00:45:29.019 --> 00:45:32.199 the budget and the support to actually support 00:45:32.199 --> 00:45:34.480 that kind of technology? Because otherwise you're 00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:36.260 going uphill, right? Yeah, it can be a great 00:45:36.260 --> 00:45:40.599 technology. Yes, I can use my smartphone to detect 00:45:40.599 --> 00:45:44.780 cancer, detect murmurs, detect signs of depression, 00:45:45.179 --> 00:45:47.800 but is there going to be reimbursement and payment 00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:50.539 for it? I think that's the tricky part. I think 00:45:50.539 --> 00:45:52.840 the other piece that I think venture funds get 00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:57.239 too caught up on, and partly because it's kind 00:45:57.239 --> 00:46:01.469 of market size on certain products. I've seen 00:46:01.469 --> 00:46:03.590 so many times where companies have overlooked 00:46:03.590 --> 00:46:06.230 because they don't see the billion dollar market 00:46:06.230 --> 00:46:10.530 of that problem. I view that as a very myopic 00:46:10.530 --> 00:46:14.230 way of thinking. You know, no company or very 00:46:14.230 --> 00:46:16.530 few companies reach that billion dollar market 00:46:16.530 --> 00:46:18.710 capture. You know, you don't. I mean, most companies 00:46:18.710 --> 00:46:21.190 are sold at, you know, if you go well, you get 00:46:21.190 --> 00:46:24.110 100, 200, $300 million exit. Very few companies 00:46:24.110 --> 00:46:26.349 are going to go up to the billion dollar size. 00:46:28.360 --> 00:46:30.800 you know, and I know when you're evaluating companies, 00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:32.820 you want to have a standard process to evaluate 00:46:32.820 --> 00:46:34.260 it. You want to make sure there's enough meat 00:46:34.260 --> 00:46:38.380 on the bone, but insisting, you know, that the 00:46:38.380 --> 00:46:40.159 company has got to hit a billion dollar market 00:46:40.159 --> 00:46:42.159 size, I think is like, what's the difference 00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:44.880 between a $2 billion market size and $100 billion 00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:47.920 market size? Like, really, like, I see pitch 00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:51.079 decks proposing such astronomical figures on 00:46:51.079 --> 00:46:54.059 their little widget and gap. And they have like 00:46:54.059 --> 00:46:56.179 $2 ,000 a month, they recurring revenue, and 00:46:56.179 --> 00:46:58.139 they're pitching a pipe dream of like, a trillion 00:46:58.139 --> 00:47:02.119 dollars. Let's get down to basics. Let's do some 00:47:02.119 --> 00:47:05.059 bottom -up calculations. How many hospitals do 00:47:05.059 --> 00:47:07.719 you have? How many hospitals can you tangibly 00:47:07.719 --> 00:47:10.599 get in the next six to 12 months? How much money 00:47:10.599 --> 00:47:11.860 are you going to get from each hospital? Is it 00:47:11.860 --> 00:47:13.780 going to be $1 ,000? Is it going to be $100 ,000? 00:47:13.780 --> 00:47:16.380 Is it going to be $100 million? And how many 00:47:16.380 --> 00:47:19.079 users are you going to be able to get? And let's 00:47:19.079 --> 00:47:22.460 work with that. And what can you do meaningfully 00:47:22.460 --> 00:47:25.559 with three to five years and maybe a couple million 00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:28.119 dollars of capital? And is that, you know, with 00:47:28.119 --> 00:47:30.820 that, you've done a bit of a study, a pilot, 00:47:30.980 --> 00:47:33.940 if you could do that, and what can you return? 00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:38.219 So that's the, I think, myopic thinking and funding. 00:47:41.199 --> 00:47:44.440 They're, they're pushed to get returns. And then 00:47:44.440 --> 00:47:46.440 they're also getting pushing themselves to find 00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:49.179 the new shiny thing in hopes that LPs are going 00:47:49.179 --> 00:47:51.579 to gravitate like, oh, we've got the coolest 00:47:51.579 --> 00:47:53.920 deal. Well, we got into this very interesting 00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:56.920 deal. Returns are the only thing that matter. 00:47:58.699 --> 00:48:01.139 Yeah. How much money will you give me and how 00:48:01.139 --> 00:48:03.320 much money will I return? Everything else is 00:48:03.320 --> 00:48:06.679 noise and signals, either positive or negative. 00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:09.639 It's not a red flag, but it's almost a yellow 00:48:09.639 --> 00:48:12.500 flag when a founder tells me if I get 10 % of 00:48:12.500 --> 00:48:14.519 this market, this is how big my company will 00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:16.860 be. And I think this is one piece of advice to 00:48:16.860 --> 00:48:19.880 founders. Do a bottoms up approach. Do not do 00:48:19.880 --> 00:48:24.489 a top down approach for market sizing. You're 00:48:24.489 --> 00:48:26.170 almost setting yourself up for failure because 00:48:26.170 --> 00:48:30.590 I have basically never seen a company hit their 00:48:30.590 --> 00:48:35.250 target forecast. It just never happens. So investors 00:48:35.250 --> 00:48:38.230 on this side, I think we become jaded. When you 00:48:38.230 --> 00:48:41.190 say that, I think it actually lowers your credibility 00:48:41.190 --> 00:48:43.349 or lowers your competency, even though you're 00:48:43.349 --> 00:48:48.070 very competent. Give me that bottoms up calculation. 00:48:48.809 --> 00:48:50.989 And that's something I can actually hold you 00:48:50.989 --> 00:48:53.710 to. and I can help you assist and say, hey, I've 00:48:53.710 --> 00:48:56.090 got five hospitals, I need to get to 10 more. 00:48:56.449 --> 00:48:58.889 That's a tangible goal in the year that you as 00:48:58.889 --> 00:49:02.329 a founder and me as a fund can help you achieve. 00:49:02.530 --> 00:49:04.530 I can introduce it to five hospitals, 10 hospitals. 00:49:05.130 --> 00:49:08.369 I can't get 10 % of the market share for you. 00:49:10.309 --> 00:49:15.969 We got to take baby steps first. So I think investors 00:49:15.969 --> 00:49:21.340 are just kind of... jaded by that altogether. 00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:25.599 No one's impressed. What's one thing you've changed 00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:30.860 your mind on in the past 12 months? Yeah, I think 00:49:30.860 --> 00:49:34.920 historically, I would really expect companies 00:49:34.920 --> 00:49:39.360 to have a really long runway of funding. You 00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:41.860 know, this concept of like, you know, you need 00:49:41.860 --> 00:49:45.920 18, 24, 36 months of funding. You know, venture 00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:49.000 funds typically like to see that. You know, venture 00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:52.139 funds are an interesting base because they expect 00:49:52.139 --> 00:49:57.039 companies to have the traction and scale of like 00:49:57.039 --> 00:49:59.659 a series D company. And they want the valuation 00:49:59.659 --> 00:50:01.760 of like a pre -seed company, right? They want 00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:03.820 like the world and want to give you nothing in 00:50:03.820 --> 00:50:08.099 return for it. You know, yes, in an ideal world, 00:50:08.119 --> 00:50:10.699 you have all your ducks in a row and you're served 00:50:10.699 --> 00:50:13.360 things on a, on a silver platter. I think that's 00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:16.579 what venture funding typically is actually expecting, 00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:19.699 this is the disconnect between founders and venture 00:50:19.699 --> 00:50:22.079 funds. Venture funds are often expecting the 00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:23.800 world, are all the problems to be solved and 00:50:23.800 --> 00:50:25.860 all they're really thinking to do is I'm gonna 00:50:25.860 --> 00:50:29.159 inject some capital and it's gonna grow. Sometimes 00:50:29.159 --> 00:50:32.199 that is what happens and a couple million or 00:50:32.199 --> 00:50:35.679 10 million bucks solves the problem. But that's 00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:37.840 assuming that money is the only problem that 00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:40.639 you have. And very few companies, particularly 00:50:40.639 --> 00:50:43.699 healthcare, money is just the tip of the iceberg 00:50:43.699 --> 00:50:47.239 of of what the company needs. So yes, I can tell 00:50:47.239 --> 00:50:50.019 them to have 18 months of runway or 19 months, 00:50:50.760 --> 00:50:53.920 but without that MVP, without that pilot, without 00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:56.900 that data, without US data, they're not going 00:50:56.900 --> 00:51:00.760 to get the traction to kind of get that of them. 00:51:01.099 --> 00:51:03.440 So yeah, I'm not expecting that they can survive 00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:05.559 with one or two months of runway, but I think 00:51:05.559 --> 00:51:07.579 as fund managers, you have to be a little bit 00:51:07.579 --> 00:51:10.000 more realistic, be a little bit more empathetic 00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:13.099 on you are going to have to roll up your sleeves. 00:51:13.799 --> 00:51:16.780 with alongside the company and, you know, actually 00:51:16.780 --> 00:51:19.639 contribute and getting them to that end point. 00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:22.519 It's not going to be a passive exercise where 00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:25.059 you expect them to just kind of, you know, solve 00:51:25.059 --> 00:51:26.760 these things in five years. Now you're going 00:51:26.760 --> 00:51:29.260 to get lovely exits. Like you also have to be 00:51:29.260 --> 00:51:31.480 in the trenches with them. And that's when I, 00:51:31.480 --> 00:51:33.820 when I speak to founders, I think that's what 00:51:33.820 --> 00:51:36.099 founders should be vetting. Founders should be 00:51:36.099 --> 00:51:37.579 vetting the funds that are investing in them. 00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:40.380 Like what are you going to provide beyond capital 00:51:40.380 --> 00:51:44.969 into, into my company? And if they can't do that, 00:51:45.050 --> 00:51:48.269 then yes, the money's great. But I think you 00:51:48.269 --> 00:51:50.710 are setting yourselves up for failure if like, 00:51:50.710 --> 00:51:52.250 money's the only thing you're getting from your 00:51:52.250 --> 00:51:54.730 investors. Because then you still have to find 00:51:54.730 --> 00:51:58.389 that Rolodex, that connection, the chief operating 00:51:58.389 --> 00:52:00.269 officer is gonna help you build that company, 00:52:00.469 --> 00:52:06.570 right? So it's, yeah, I think it's just investors 00:52:06.570 --> 00:52:09.170 being a little bit more realistic in what they 00:52:09.170 --> 00:52:11.820 expect of the others. And especially the last 00:52:11.820 --> 00:52:15.539 two, three years has not been kind to the market 00:52:15.539 --> 00:52:18.059 in general, especially companies. Many companies 00:52:18.059 --> 00:52:22.400 have gone under. And I think some of that needed 00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:24.780 to happen. Some of it could have been prevented 00:52:24.780 --> 00:52:29.000 if supported in the right way. Thank you, sir. 00:52:29.079 --> 00:52:31.360 This was amazing. Is there anything else you 00:52:31.360 --> 00:52:34.579 want to share with our audience? No, I think 00:52:34.579 --> 00:52:38.219 this is good. Thank you for having me. I really 00:52:38.219 --> 00:52:38.960 appreciate it.