1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,120 Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry, originally by Mildred D. Taylor, was originally published 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,120 in 1976. 3 00:00:10,120 --> 00:00:14,000 It won the Newberry Medal in 1977. 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:22,160 It is part of the Logan family saga, which are, I would say, autobiographical books. 5 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:31,600 Yeah, I'd say they're autobiographical books that tell the story of Taylor's family. 6 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,520 And yeah, that's about it for now. 7 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,720 I'm going to go ahead and launch straight into my discussion of this book, which, well, 8 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:42,600 actually, I'll go back. 9 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:49,100 At the end of the book, there was a note from Taylor herself that said that some people 10 00:00:49,100 --> 00:00:54,360 think that her book is not politically correct. 11 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:59,680 She talks about the fact that people want to, different people, I think from different sides, 12 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:09,380 want to censor or limit the exposure that her book, or this book and other books, have 13 00:01:09,380 --> 00:01:10,880 in schools. 14 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:16,400 And I guess, you know, and two children as well. 15 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,160 Interesting. 16 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,680 So yeah, supposedly, I was confused previously. 17 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,360 Let me give you some more information about the book. 18 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:32,840 So it says, in 1933, nine-year-old Cassie Logan lives in rural Mississippi with her 19 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:37,280 three brothers, Stacey, Christopher John, and little man. 20 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,200 Unlike most black families during this time, the Logan family owns the land on which they 21 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:42,200 reside. 22 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,160 It originally belonged to a white plantation owner, Harlan Granger, who sold it to cover 23 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,400 his taxes during reconstruction. 24 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,480 So the book is kind of a mishmash. 25 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,320 There's a lot of things going on. 26 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:59,920 These kids interact in a very adult world, and they actually start facing racism, or 27 00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:03,200 at least Cassie, who's nine at the time, starts facing racism. 28 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:08,020 I don't know if her brother, Stacey, is already well acquainted with it and understands what's 29 00:02:08,020 --> 00:02:09,020 going on. 30 00:02:09,020 --> 00:02:14,080 But her family, because of the difference between them and other black families who 31 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,480 are sharecropping, they have been able to insulate their children, to some extent the 32 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:23,840 mother and father, have insulated the children, to some extent, from out and out racism, and 33 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,320 they don't quite understand all the dynamics. 34 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:31,380 And Cassie learns about those dynamics and the fact that white people think they're better 35 00:02:31,380 --> 00:02:32,380 than them. 36 00:02:32,380 --> 00:02:34,720 Some of them will, just because they're black. 37 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:36,720 And it's very interesting. 38 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:42,400 So I guess I had to understand this as the fourth book in the series, but I guess I was 39 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,600 wrong according to the Wikipedia article. 40 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:45,600 This is what it says. 41 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,600 The novel is the first book in the Logan family saga, which includes four sequels, Let the 42 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:55,760 Circle Be Unbroken, The Road to Memphis, The Gold Cadillac, and All the Days Past, All 43 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:04,320 the Days to Come, and three prequels, The Land, The Well or David's Story, and A Song 44 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:10,680 of the Trees, as well as two novellas, Mississippi Bridge and The Friendship. 45 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:15,000 In the book, Taylor explores struggles of African Americans in the 1930s Mississippi 46 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:16,880 through the perspective of nine-year-old Cassie Logan. 47 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:21,840 As I was saying, the novel contains several themes, including Jim Crow segregation, black 48 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,120 land ownership, sharecropping, the Great Depression, and lynching. 49 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:36,440 And I'm going to say the importance of gun ownership and self-defense and black anti-military 50 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,600 attitudes, anti-government attitudes to some extent as well. 51 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:44,440 I'm going to say the importance of gun ownership and self-defense as well. 52 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:51,320 Supposedly this book has controversy because of the use of the N-word in it. 53 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,320 I felt it was appropriate. 54 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,320 I don't quite know how I'm going to talk about this book. 55 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,880 The way I've been talking about all these different books varies as I go on. 56 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:06,400 And I'm giving each one its own fortress fiction treatment as it deserves, because they're 57 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,760 all kind of different and unique books. 58 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:11,920 So, let me slow down a bit. 59 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,240 I'm actually really excited to talk about this book. 60 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,600 And I'm going to go ahead and give you the 60-second spoiler thing. 61 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:19,600 I don't know. 62 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:20,600 It's not a 60-second spoiler. 63 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:21,960 It's just 60 seconds. 64 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:22,960 This book is good. 65 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:24,320 It's a definite recommend. 66 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:31,200 I believe, I firmly believe it not demands, it deserves a place in the fortress fiction. 67 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:32,600 I think this is good. 68 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:38,080 Like, first of all, and I'll clarify this from now on, this was entertaining. 69 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,880 This is not message fiction or it's not message fiction to the exclusion of telling a good 70 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:42,880 story. 71 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:44,480 It is a story first. 72 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:45,920 It tells the story of this family. 73 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:50,600 And it's super interesting in the outro and the note at the end by Taylor, she mentioned 74 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:57,080 that sometimes people laugh, sometimes people cried, sometimes it was terrifying, and sometimes 75 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:05,160 it was a joy to relive her family's history in this oral storytelling, oral, you know, 76 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:09,560 oral transmission of storytelling that they did, that they was preserved for, I don't 77 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:14,200 know, sounds like 100 years from the great granddaddy's day all the way down to her day, 78 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:15,640 these stories being told. 79 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:21,240 And I can see why they told these stories because these stories are going to help children 80 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:27,360 to grow and to learn and to develop and to become who they need to be. 81 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,160 So that being said, I'm going to go ahead and talk about this. 82 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:32,160 I talked about the N-word. 83 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:37,720 I talked about the kind of politically correct thing, and I brought up black gun ownership, 84 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,400 which is an interesting topic, but I'm not going to dwell on it. 85 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:44,760 Also, like the militancy and the anti-war, anti-government kind of policy. 86 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:50,400 Some of that more political stuff is things that I have enjoyed talking about in the past 87 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:55,840 in my adult life, but it doesn't really germane to the discussion of the book right now. 88 00:05:55,840 --> 00:05:59,240 I'm not talking about politics or black America specifically. 89 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,040 I'm talking about this as a book. 90 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,960 And again, as I said earlier, this is an entertaining book. 91 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:16,480 It is a good story, and I don't want to ruin that story or turn people away from it by 92 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:17,800 using it for my own political agenda. 93 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:18,800 So I'm not going to do that. 94 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:25,000 I'm just going to say I firmly believe that more books should be written like this, reflecting 95 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:33,440 different perspectives and different people so that we can all benefit from sharing with 96 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:39,680 each other, even if you never get to talk to somebody who was born in the South as a 97 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:45,840 slave or the child of a former slave who experienced all these different things, especially as 98 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:47,120 time goes on. 99 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:51,480 If these memories and these stories aren't preserved, they will be lost to time. 100 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:59,040 And while the general human principle of slavery is wrong, and so is institutionalized racism 101 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:06,240 that keeps people down or allows one group to oppress and commit crimes against another 102 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,840 group and get away with it legally. 103 00:07:08,840 --> 00:07:14,240 Those things are obviously morally wrong, or to some people, it's not obvious. 104 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:18,320 And there are a lot of things that, from my perspective, and again, this is partly my 105 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:26,400 morality based on my worldview, my perspective on God, and also my political understanding. 106 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:31,000 There are certain things that are just moral and they can be reasoned, they can be understood, 107 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,960 they can be applied to all sorts of situations to which I would say, yeah, you can't do 108 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:35,960 this. 109 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:36,960 This is immoral. 110 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:37,960 You can do this. 111 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:38,960 This is moral. 112 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:43,240 And while I definitely think that works and that definitely works for me, I know not all 113 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:44,640 people share that perspective. 114 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:49,000 And I think that's a sad thing overall, but I have at least have my principles to guide 115 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,240 me and I don't need specific examples. 116 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:57,960 I don't need to relive horrors in order to see, oh yeah, this would be bad to do. 117 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,720 It would be bad to oppress people in this way or take away people's rights in this way 118 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:07,240 because this anecdotal, you know, anecdotally, I have learned that it's wrong and bad. 119 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,280 It's just my principles tell me that it's wrong and bad. 120 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:16,240 But at least for children, you know, it's good to introduce them to these things through 121 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,880 stories and through stories, they can learn the principles and they can apply those principles 122 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:20,880 to other things. 123 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:26,120 They could say, hey, the form of discrimination that Cassie and her family are treated with, 124 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,120 I see a parallel to it over here. 125 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,480 And I don't like seeing it over here because it was wrong for Cassie and her family. 126 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,260 We mistreated that way. 127 00:08:33,260 --> 00:08:37,560 And therefore, you know, therefore I'm able to use my reasoning and observe that it's 128 00:08:37,560 --> 00:08:42,480 also wrong for these people over here who might look opposite of them to be oppressed 129 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:48,320 or mistreated in this way and have everybody be OK with that, both socially and legally. 130 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:53,580 So anyway, getting back into the meat of this end of the story, it's a good story. 131 00:08:53,580 --> 00:09:00,160 It's kind of a fun adventure story because it's obviously fun adventure story, but it 132 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,380 does tell small anecdotes. 133 00:09:02,380 --> 00:09:05,900 It shares bits and pieces of the story. 134 00:09:05,900 --> 00:09:09,240 I don't know if it takes place, maybe it takes place over the course of a year, approximately 135 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:14,360 nine months to a year, a school year, perhaps, because it does. 136 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,920 And there is stuff mentioned about like the crops and the cotton yield and everything 137 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:22,560 that the Logan family has on their land, which they, you know, they farm themselves and they 138 00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:27,520 also hire on like a tenant farmer kind of guy to help them with on their two hundred 139 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:28,520 acres or so that they have. 140 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,000 I think it's two hundred, not two thousand, but the number two thousand sticks in my mind 141 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:33,000 for some reason. 142 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:38,200 It was the original, the white man who was the slave owner who had the two thousand acres 143 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,000 and he ended up selling it off piecemeal. 144 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:45,520 And the Logan family owns two hundred acres worth of what he used to own. 145 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:46,520 I think that's the deal. 146 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:48,360 Anyway, that doesn't matter. 147 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:53,960 But also the timeline of it isn't one hundred percent pertinent. 148 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,940 There's starting of the school year, which is about August. 149 00:09:57,940 --> 00:10:01,320 And then there's inflection point around Christmas. 150 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:07,520 And then there's another inflection point somewhere nearing harvest time, I think. 151 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,760 But it's not I'm not 100 percent sure. 152 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:15,160 I'm going to say that the thing I one of the things I liked most or appreciated most about 153 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:20,720 this is that because the story is being told from the respective of this little girl, Cassie, 154 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,560 you get to see lots of different sides of things. 155 00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:29,600 You get to see her interacting with her siblings in a very close way. 156 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,240 You get to see her. 157 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,160 You see things happening in school in an interesting way. 158 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,840 And I don't know if it's because of the times, 1930s or if it was because they were poor 159 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,280 or if it's because that's how things were done in Mississippi. 160 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,600 I guess it's a state, right? 161 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,960 Anyway, yeah, it's the same. 162 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:52,080 There's this really interesting incident in the beginning of the book where Cassie and 163 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:56,520 her brother, little man, are in class together. 164 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:00,420 It's like a mixed classroom that has like a canvas divider in it, and it's not separated 165 00:11:00,420 --> 00:11:05,200 on whites or blacks or, you know, colored versus non-colored or white. 166 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,840 I don't know how you would say that. 167 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:09,800 It's not separated on that. 168 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:14,400 It's separated kind of by grade level, even though they're they're semi joined with each 169 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:15,400 other. 170 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:19,360 But it was interesting because in it, you get to see that the children were allowed 171 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,240 to be whipped by their teachers at the time. 172 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,400 The corporal punishment was part of the school system, the public school system or the, you 173 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:34,040 know, anyway, the public, the government school system and the teacher who their mother, the 174 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,200 Logan's Mrs. Logan, she's a teacher as well. 175 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,520 And the teacher who ends up whipping, I think both are kids, right? 176 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,100 Little man and Cassie got whipped, I believe. 177 00:11:44,100 --> 00:11:47,400 She ends up going and telling about it to Mrs. Logan. 178 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:52,880 And the reason that that happens is because little man is horrified by the fact that in 179 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:59,640 his book, it basically documents that what the county that they live in has done is that 180 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,800 over the years, the books have passed from student to student to student. 181 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,620 And there's a chronological log of that in the book, in the front of the book. 182 00:12:06,620 --> 00:12:13,500 And it spells out the fact that it makes it very easy to observe the pattern that over 183 00:12:13,500 --> 00:12:15,160 time as the books deteriorate in quality. 184 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,520 And I think it's over like a course of 20 years or so. 185 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,540 They got so bad that they stopped giving those books to white students and they started giving 186 00:12:22,540 --> 00:12:25,480 them to colored or black students. 187 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:30,120 And little man can read even though he's four years old, he's a first grader, I guess he's 188 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,080 five years old, he's a first grader. 189 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,000 And he's horrified by this fact and it makes him very upset. 190 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,920 He doesn't want the book because he doesn't want the scraps. 191 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:45,080 And honestly, I'll be honest, I'll get a little more political for just a minute. 192 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:50,800 While that anecdote very well may be true, especially because there is a pride and self-respect 193 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,240 present in the Logan family that comes across, which I appreciate and I think is good and 194 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,960 noble and honorable. 195 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,000 It first surprised me because it sounded like one of those things that people make up on 196 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:04,400 Facebook or Twitter or whatever, where they say, oh, my four year old came over to me 197 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,080 and said this, can you believe that? 198 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:08,680 And it's like, yeah, your kid didn't say that. 199 00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:09,680 You said that. 200 00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:10,680 And you pretended that your kid said that. 201 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:18,800 So I'm not going to question Taylor's family who told the story, but it just it felt like 202 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:19,800 that to me a little bit. 203 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:20,800 I had to let go. 204 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,600 I had to let go and think, OK, well, you know, obviously I wasn't there. 205 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,240 This is from, you know, oral history handed down within a family. 206 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:29,240 So who am I to question that? 207 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:30,240 And it's part of the story. 208 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:38,960 But as the story went on, it became more clear, like what was being done and how things were 209 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:43,320 going and the fact that these children had been shielded from out and out racism so they 210 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:47,320 didn't fully understand the discrimination that they faced. 211 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,880 And then it made more sense to me. 212 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,480 It was still it still worked, regardless of whether or not I was dubious about that part 213 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:55,720 being factual. 214 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,160 But within the rest of the story, like everything else feels very real. 215 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:04,600 Everything else feels very much like it did happen historically. 216 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,640 And I think that's I think that's good. 217 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:09,800 The rest of it feels authentic. 218 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:15,640 So there's that little bit of inauthenticity or potential inauthenticity that I felt. 219 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,880 And I didn't let that really bother me. 220 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:22,640 I rolled along with it because I thought, well, OK, there's got to be a reason for this. 221 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:27,320 And I can understand why this would be here like this. 222 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,280 And also, I don't know, who am I to say, like I said, it didn't happen. 223 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,040 So let me just go with this. 224 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:36,760 And I'm really glad that I didn't let that negatively affect me and that I rolled with 225 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,880 it because the rest of the book is very worthwhile and it was very interesting. 226 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,360 And like I said, I really appreciate everything that happened in there. 227 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:45,360 It all felt very real. 228 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:46,360 It felt very real. 229 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:47,880 It felt very threatening, very ominous. 230 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:53,000 And the children like so much of the book is told from the children's perspective. 231 00:14:53,000 --> 00:15:01,920 It's really from Kathy's perspective specifically, but it has a very mature. 232 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:07,480 A very mature way about it where like you don't really get into people's heads. 233 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,520 It's not that that's intrinsically mature. 234 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:17,960 What I'm trying to say is it feels like a kid recounting their encounters of the world 235 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:22,440 accurately, but not necessarily understanding what everything that they're repeating back 236 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,840 to you means like Cassie doesn't quite get the significance of it. 237 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,760 And you're not given that significance in the narration. 238 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:31,400 It doesn't berate you. 239 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,200 It doesn't force you to look at things a certain way. 240 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,840 It just because it's a book and you're following along with the narrative narrative, it just 241 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,480 forces you to look. 242 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:45,120 It gives you the opportunity to see this world through her eyes and experience it. 243 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,400 And it was sad and scary, intense. 244 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,000 And it was a very interesting experience. 245 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,280 Like I said, I do believe this belongs in the halls of the fortress fiction. 246 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:56,720 I do believe this is foundational. 247 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:02,520 It's a fundamental thing for somebody to read so that you don't miss out on this experience 248 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:08,800 because it's important to know it and to feel it to and to know that it's wrong and to feel 249 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,920 motivated to work and fight against this sort of thing. 250 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:21,000 This sort of discrimination based on immutable qualities. 251 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,280 So that was good. 252 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,000 That was very good. 253 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,760 And something to add to the fact that the book was so authentic and so real is the fact 254 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:37,620 that there are not every black character, not every black person in the book is a wonderful 255 00:16:37,620 --> 00:16:44,800 virtuous hero and not every white person in the book is a evil white devil. 256 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,680 For lack of a better term, or is a villain, I should say. 257 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:52,720 That's a better way to counter that, to balance that, you know, those dueling perspectives 258 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,280 out. 259 00:16:54,280 --> 00:17:00,680 And there's a little boy, I believe his name is Jeremy, and he belongs to a bad family, 260 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:07,120 a bad white family who is doing lots of bad stuff and who was involved in who the older 261 00:17:07,120 --> 00:17:12,720 brothers are actually involved in committing crimes later and getting one of the bad black 262 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,080 characters to fall in with them. 263 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,560 Now this kid's 12 or 13 years old. 264 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:22,400 These boys are 15, 18, 17, 18, something like that. 265 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,240 Years old, the white boys that are older than him and they who lead him astray. 266 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:34,160 But this kid is like I felt I almost felt a little bit badly for how I was perceiving 267 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,880 this kid and he felt like he was much older to me. 268 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:40,480 And that kind of justified it to me. 269 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:41,840 Like I'm not seeing him. 270 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:47,280 I'm hearing this book and I'm, you know, reading through it and I'm not seeing pictures of 271 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:48,280 these kids. 272 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,480 So Cassie, I didn't realize she was nine until later on. 273 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,120 I thought she was a little older. 274 00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:55,000 It wasn't until I found out that like, oh, you know, this 12 year old girl couldn't do 275 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,920 this and this nine year old girl could me that I realized that she was nine years old. 276 00:17:58,920 --> 00:17:59,960 I thought, well, this girl's young. 277 00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:04,120 So no wonder she's been shielded and protected from some of these more severe negative things 278 00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:09,520 in the world in reality and her reality at that time. 279 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,360 But it also made me think, oh yeah, I mean, she's this old, her brother's 12 and their 280 00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:17,680 friend, a little bit of friend, their friend, enemy. 281 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:18,680 I'm not sure. 282 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:20,400 He's only 12 years old as well. 283 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,320 TJ and TJ Avery. 284 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:30,840 And at first I went, I went from feeling very unsympathetic towards TJ to then understanding 285 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:36,680 a little bit more kind of when the age was cemented in for me, what like some of what 286 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:42,520 TJ's problem was and why he was acting the way he acts and not that his behavior, his 287 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:48,600 very bad behavior is justified or excused, but I can understand better where he's coming 288 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,040 from. 289 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,680 And that's, that's the interesting thing is the book presents you with people who are 290 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:55,320 acting very badly. 291 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,280 And then sometimes there's an opportunity. 292 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:04,520 Sometimes the characters just react to that and they can react either poorly or well, 293 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:10,800 depending on the circumstances, or the book will present to you a person doing bad things 294 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:17,600 and it'll help to contextualize what they're doing for good and for ill. 295 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:25,760 So TJ is not the best kid and I would say he's lacking guidance and he needs guidance and 296 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:26,760 help. 297 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:28,720 His father and a mother or no, his mother's dead. 298 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:36,240 I believe in his father's like sickly and for whatever reason, TJ decides to act in 299 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,000 a way contrary to how his mother would want and how his father wants him to. 300 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,160 And I don't know, his mother is still alive, but he's so big and strong that even when 301 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,160 she whoops him, it doesn't help. 302 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,680 And his father is so sickly that when he tries to discipline his son verbally or talk to 303 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,880 him, he falls into a coughing fit and he can't do it. 304 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:58,600 So for whatever reason, TJ, who I believe is an only child, he kind of runs wild and 305 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:00,000 he presents a lot of problems. 306 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,560 He has a lot of negative traits. 307 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:08,960 He's yeah, he has a lot of negative traits and he is almost like a, even though he's 308 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:14,040 supposed to be based on a real character, he's almost like a caricature of what a racist 309 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:21,000 white person would say a black person is, which is pretty interesting because Taylor 310 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:28,720 is writing these family stories as a black woman, sharing these things and just giving 311 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:35,440 fair treatment and writing TJ is a bad kid, even though he's one of her people, so to 312 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:36,520 speak. 313 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:42,720 And she's not affording him the protection of the collective. 314 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,720 She's saying, Hey, this guy was bad and he did these bad things. 315 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,860 And maybe he wasn't all that bad and he didn't deserve everything that happened to him. 316 00:20:49,860 --> 00:20:51,840 But it's kind of understandable how this happened. 317 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,320 He became estranged from some of his friends because of his negative behavior. 318 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,640 And then he fell in with a bad crowd with these two white boys whose family had done 319 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:05,040 heinous things and were criminal and all deserve severe punishment. 320 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,920 And I don't know if they ever saw justice for what they did. 321 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:17,800 And it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't because that was the environment at the time. 322 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:19,920 And that's sad. 323 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:27,000 And it's sad to know that TJ did get an undeserved punishment and then get perhaps some deserved 324 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,320 punishment as well. 325 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:33,680 But the fact that these boys escaped without any punishment of any sort is that's criminal. 326 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:34,720 That's injustice. 327 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,640 That's not justice being carried out. 328 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,400 And that's very sad. 329 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:44,400 And things like that, I don't think should be sugar coated because we should face those 330 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:51,040 hard truths so that we can be hurt by them and be made angry by them and try to fight 331 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,720 them because they're wrong and they need to be corrected. 332 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,000 And it's just not proper. 333 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:04,160 On the other hand, a lot of the other whites in the book are bad people. 334 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:10,000 They have gradations of negativity and of how they treat the Logan family poorly. 335 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,200 And I mean, there is not just poor treatment. 336 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:17,440 There's also like violent attacks, there's burnings, there's shootings, there's lots 337 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,080 of different things that happen. 338 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:20,360 But there are some good white characters. 339 00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:22,040 There's an old lawyer, I can't remember his name. 340 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,800 There's a little boy, Jeremy, who's related to that family. 341 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,560 And the little boy wants to be friends with the Logan kids and he kind of walks to school 342 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,160 with them as much as he can. 343 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:33,520 And he calls himself their friend. 344 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,400 He gives them gifts and he's kind to them and things like that. 345 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:42,800 And then his sister is a jerk and his dad's bad and his older brothers are rotten as well. 346 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,760 So that's kind of interesting. 347 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,160 But then the lawyer, he knows the family well. 348 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,040 He's lived there for a long time and he does his best to help them. 349 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,960 In fact, he makes something really good happen in the end, which is great. 350 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,240 But I don't want to spoil it for you because I want you to read the book. 351 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,520 But I want to shift gears now and talk about the Logan family themselves. 352 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:08,560 And I was mentioning that the Logan family has a lot of honor and a lot of pride. 353 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,880 And I think dignity and respectfulness are really the things that I want to say the Logan 354 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,000 family has and traits that they exhibit because they do. 355 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:18,940 And I think that's wonderful. 356 00:23:18,940 --> 00:23:20,800 This is a very interesting distinction. 357 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:27,920 So for whatever reason, there is a time when black families were very strong and there's 358 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:33,480 an illustration of a strong black family in this book, which not all the families were 359 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:34,480 strong. 360 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,840 Like I said, with TJ, his mother and father had problems with him and he was kind of a 361 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,200 bad kid doing not great things. 362 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:49,280 And it's kind of hard for me to tell why he was such a bad kid. 363 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,120 What went wrong with him? 364 00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:56,000 Maybe he was exposed to more racism from white people and maybe things were kind of lacking 365 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,440 in the family at home. 366 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,360 And the confluence of those things and the way he took those things broke him in such 367 00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:10,680 a way where he was bad as a result of those things versus the Logan family is coming from 368 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:15,600 a different position, kind of like a more advanced or higher or I'm not going to say 369 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:20,540 privileged, but like a more steady, they have like a stronger base and like a more sturdy 370 00:24:20,540 --> 00:24:24,840 foundation under them than let's say the Avery's did, that's TJ's family. 371 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:31,320 And so when their medal was tested, they performed better and had better outcomes because they 372 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:38,880 were stronger and more able to cope with what happened. 373 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:45,720 Doesn't lessen the evil, the severity, the disgustingness of anything that they faced. 374 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,680 It's just sometimes people break well and sometimes people break bad. 375 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,440 And that's how it is. 376 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:59,240 There's a great analogy that I won't use, but just basically sometimes hardship breaks 377 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:07,360 people and sometimes hardship is a crucible that turns somebody into gold or into a diamond 378 00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:09,240 or however you want to phrase that. 379 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:17,840 So it's just while adversity does improve a person, adversity also sometimes crushes 380 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,760 a person, which I guess that's the last I'll save it. 381 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,280 But I'm just going to say Paul Logan because I don't remember his name because the kids 382 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,920 are mostly referring to him as daddy or pa or not pa, but dad. 383 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,400 So I don't remember. 384 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,200 And that's the thing. 385 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:37,120 The book is so much from the kid perspective that it's like, this is ma, this is big ma, 386 00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:40,120 this is dad, this is uncle hammer. 387 00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:41,340 It's just a very kid's perspective. 388 00:25:41,340 --> 00:25:45,800 So I don't remember all the parents names because it's mostly the kids that you're in 389 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,080 and around. 390 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:57,880 But my point is there is a large emphasis on kind of like, there's an interesting perspective 391 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:06,440 that's shared from the parents, which is basically it is wrong for white people to mistreat us, 392 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,440 but it is a fact that they will mistreat us. 393 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:14,640 And it is a weakness on their part that they feel that because they can mistreat us and 394 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:20,800 get away with it legally and kind of culturally or societally, from a cultural perspective 395 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:25,880 and a legal perspective, they can get away with being awful to us and they can even get 396 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,360 away with crimes that they will do that because that's what makes them feel better. 397 00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:36,800 And it's related to when slavery was the law of the land and how people justified slavery 398 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,520 and how they use Christianity to do that and Bible and how they taught Christianity to 399 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,400 us blacks in order to be able to do that. 400 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,680 And it's just a very interesting conversation. 401 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:49,000 And yet there's not a victimization attitude. 402 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,480 The Logans don't act like they are victims. 403 00:26:51,480 --> 00:27:00,200 The Logans act like they are people who are dealing with a very tough situation and they 404 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:07,280 seek to act and live honorably and with respect and to give respect and get respect. 405 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,640 And they treat each other kindly. 406 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:15,040 And there's a lot of cohesion in their family that you don't see echoed in many of the other 407 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,080 families, the white family and the black family that you get a glimpse of. 408 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:24,840 They actively don't like each other and the Logan children are shocked to learn that you 409 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:29,800 can, that you're allowed to, that it's possible to not like your brother and sister. 410 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,320 And I think that speaks volumes to the family values that the Logans instilled in their 411 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:35,320 children. 412 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:42,200 I'm sure the extended family being there, having Big Ma there and the parents having 413 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,640 a good relationship, I'm sure was helpful to that. 414 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:50,160 And it's remarkable that this is the case for these people. 415 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:58,320 And it's observable within the story that being such a strong family is probably what 416 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,200 kept them together and what got them through all of these hardships. 417 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:09,440 And it's remarkable and inspiring that people who came from such hurt and came from such 418 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:16,680 negativity, could be able to rise above those challenges and do something better and make 419 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,440 themselves something better. 420 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:28,920 And yeah, I just, it's remarkable and it's inspiring and touching and I really like that. 421 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,280 So a wonderful part of their story. 422 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:38,840 And without the conflict inherent in facing the racism, it's not like they couldn't have 423 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,640 risen to those heights and made those accomplishments. 424 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:52,720 But I really like that and I really appreciate that the discrimination and the racism and 425 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:57,800 the fact that that was all in Sconson Law doesn't take away. 426 00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,600 It's not an excuse for the family. 427 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:05,280 It's just another reason basically for them to be their best selves and to do the best 428 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:12,160 they can and to keep working and fighting, living for a better tomorrow and to build 429 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:20,480 something for themselves, which is really beautiful. 430 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,960 Being that we are pretty much at the end of this episode of Fortress Fiction, I want to 431 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:32,760 go ahead and open up to the comments and see if anybody has questions or comments about 432 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:38,120 this book and if not, I do have one more thing I want to add, one other thought I had, and 433 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,160 then I want to tell you about Mildred D. Taylor's other books so that you can check them out 434 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:52,680 if you want to after having heard me commend this one. 435 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:59,600 So the last point that I wanted to bring up is that there's a contrast between TJ, I can't 436 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:05,640 remember his last name right now, the young boy who ended up getting into a lot of trouble. 437 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,840 Of course, I explained my complicated feelings about him already. 438 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:17,680 I do feel like he's a victim of the manipulation of the two white boys who are older than him 439 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,240 who got him to do all sorts of nasty things, but he was open to that and I don't think 440 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,960 Stacey for example would have done those things and I'm not quite sure why they were so different, 441 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:33,520 but more than Stacey Logan being different from TJ, Paul Logan who was born as a slave 442 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,120 was very different from TJ. 443 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:42,400 He was strengthened by the hardship that he went through and TJ wasn't and I think that's 444 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:43,400 something important to consider. 445 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,560 Paul Logan didn't come out and become a criminal. 446 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:55,360 He didn't mistreat his fellow, his fellow blacks, his fellow former slaves. 447 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,320 He didn't treat them in an underhanded way. 448 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:05,960 He was respectful and kind and he built a strong family that has deep roots that enable 449 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:15,240 it to weather the storms of racism and discrimination and just the general hardship of life versus 450 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:20,640 something went wrong with TJ where he isn't the kind of person who can weather those storms. 451 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:28,040 And it's just, I think it's very significant to point out that TJ was born free under discrimination, 452 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:29,720 never had to work as a slave. 453 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:37,680 Paul Logan was born as a slave or became a slave, lived that life for so long. 454 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,400 He was discriminated against. 455 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,160 It was ensconced in law, but not only was he discriminated against, but he didn't have 456 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:50,200 freedom and TJ, and he got his freedom and he lived as a free man after that. 457 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:55,520 And TJ, something was different in him as a person where he wasn't born as a slave, 458 00:31:55,520 --> 00:32:03,520 but he enslaved himself to this pair of white brothers to do their criminal activities. 459 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:10,920 And he ultimately ended up within the criminal justice system being arrested and taken away. 460 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:15,280 And again, I don't know his fate because it's not in this book, maybe in others, maybe something 461 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,160 that is explored down the line. 462 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:24,280 Because the story continued in the Logan family saga, but it's just to me really interesting, 463 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,400 really interesting the difference between them, the mindset, the outcomes for them. 464 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,320 And I'm not discounting, I'm not trying to discount anything. 465 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,760 I'm just focusing in on that point to say, isn't that interesting? 466 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,080 And isn't that something to think about? 467 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:46,880 Now as far as Mildred DiCattilio's other books, here is a brief list of them. 468 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,480 And here they are. 469 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:58,440 So Song of the Tree, these are not necessarily, no, these are given in sequential order. 470 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:03,480 These stories, these books go from 1975 all the way to 2020, which is very interesting. 471 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,160 Here they are real quick. 472 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,280 Song of the Trees, Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry, Let the Circle Be Unbroken, The Gold 473 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:16,280 Cadillac, The Friendship, Mississippi Bridge, The Road to Memphis, The Well, David's Story, 474 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:21,840 which is about the father, the father of the children in this story. 475 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,840 I couldn't remember his name, but it's David, the land, and then all the days past, all 476 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,000 the days to come. 477 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,440 So yeah, I mean, this book was good. 478 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,640 And I would imagine she gets better as she goes on. 479 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,640 The more she's writing, the better she's becoming. 480 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,520 And I definitely would encourage you to check out her other books and let me know what you 481 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,600 think of them. 482 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:45,880 I hope you enjoyed that. 483 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,880 Subscribe to keep up with me. 484 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,540 Like and share to help me reach more people like you. 485 00:33:50,540 --> 00:33:53,960 And go to MJMunoz.com to find your next favorite thing. 486 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,200 And don't forget to let your voice be heard. 487 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,520 Stories are always better when you're part of the conversation. 488 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,120 Until next time, be well. 489 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,760 This is MJ signing out. 490 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:16,360 This has been a Story Over Everything production.