1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,080 Before I share my thoughts with you on Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, I'm going to read 2 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:10,400 from the wiki to give you just some general information about it. 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,180 So the book is commonly called Alice in Wonderland. 4 00:00:13,180 --> 00:00:18,040 It was published in 1865 in England, I guess. 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:22,360 It's written by Lewis Carroll, which that's a pseudonym. 6 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:23,360 Nondiplume? 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:24,360 It's a writing name. 8 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:25,360 What do you... 9 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:26,780 Yeah, yeah, nondiplume is correct. 10 00:00:26,780 --> 00:00:30,480 People use nom de guerre for writers, which is silly because that's the war name. 11 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,360 Although I don't know the full context of it, but literally it means war name or warrior's 12 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,200 name as opposed to like pen name. 13 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,440 So it just seems strange to me. 14 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,880 But anyway, it deals with the young girls. 15 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:43,920 So yeah, so it's funny. 16 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:44,920 It's interesting. 17 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:50,360 It calls Lewis Carroll a mathematics don at Oxford University, which is true, but it doesn't 18 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,160 say anything about the fact that this is not his real name just in the top of that, which 19 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:55,160 I find kind of interesting. 20 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:56,160 But whatever. 21 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,480 It was written by Lewis Carroll and it details the story of a young girl named Alice who 22 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:04,280 falls through a rabbit hole into a fantasy world of anthropomorphic creatures. 23 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:09,280 It is seen as an example of the literary nonsense genre. 24 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:16,040 The artist John Tenniel provided 42 wood engraved illustrations for the book. 25 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,040 And what else is there to say about it? 26 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:25,280 The cover from the first edition has her holding the pig baby, the baby pig, the pig masquerading 27 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:26,280 as a baby. 28 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:27,280 That's kind of funny. 29 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:33,360 Apparently, you know, it can also be classified as a portal fantasy because Alice does literally 30 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,280 go through a portal to end up in this fantasy world. 31 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,400 And it's also a list is literary nonsense. 32 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,520 Macmillan is, I guess, the current publisher, and it was followed by the sequel through 33 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:44,760 the looking glass. 34 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:52,480 And actually, the source that I got it from, I listened to it from cloud library for free. 35 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:58,760 And the audiobook version I have, it had like a two hour introduction, which. 36 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:03,600 If you're really interested in the historicity of it and in the background of the book and 37 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:10,840 learning more about Lewis Carroll, then I would suggest that you go ahead and listen 38 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:11,880 to that. 39 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:19,520 But there are rumors and whispers and little things you hear here and there about Alice 40 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:20,520 in Wonderland. 41 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:26,440 I heard as a kid from regarding the Disney animated version of it that it was trippy 42 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:28,520 and possibly drug related. 43 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:30,120 And this is a family friendly show. 44 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:34,360 So I'm going to be touching on very sensitive topics, but I won't actually say anything 45 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,280 outright unless you are against your children hearing that something is drug related. 46 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:39,920 Then, you know, sorry. 47 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:42,680 But that's I guess we're still feeling each other out. 48 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,640 So trust me, I'm doing my best. 49 00:02:45,640 --> 00:02:48,520 But I also don't want to have to dance around everything. 50 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:53,200 But there's certain things regarding the the reality behind this book and the background 51 00:02:53,200 --> 00:03:00,240 behind this book that are odd or creepy, criminal, whatever, that I won't really fully go into. 52 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:08,600 But yes, the the bio and the behind the scenes, the making of a piece in this book. 53 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,000 I can't tell you which edition it was, except for it's the one that I found a cloud library. 54 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,200 So good luck finding that one. 55 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:21,280 It seems to validate that there are odd, creepy, uncomfortable things in the author's real 56 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:29,660 life that are attached to the fact that this book was created at all, which is interesting. 57 00:03:29,660 --> 00:03:31,500 But that's very much off of the point. 58 00:03:31,500 --> 00:03:37,760 And I have stated previously that I have no interest in canceling or attacking or denigrating 59 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:42,980 anybody in in this project of going through all these middle grade books. 60 00:03:42,980 --> 00:03:46,480 But I also, you know, I'm a person. 61 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:51,920 I foolishly listen to this entire thing and it colored sort of colored my perception of 62 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:53,300 the book or my reception of it. 63 00:03:53,300 --> 00:03:54,920 But it didn't. 64 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,840 It made me feel like honestly, learning about the background made me think, do I really 65 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:00,320 want to read this? 66 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,340 But I went ahead and read or listen to it anyway. 67 00:04:03,340 --> 00:04:07,400 And I thought, you know, I part of my ethos is I want to be able to divorce the artist 68 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,800 from the art and take the art and let it stand on its own. 69 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,960 Because if I didn't know these things and there are plenty of people who are ignorant 70 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,160 of them, you know, how would I judge this? 71 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:26,720 And I have to say that, you know, whatever the author did in his real life, it doesn't 72 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,760 really change how I feel about the book, other than it's just slightly creepy. 73 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:33,000 And honestly, it's turned me off of going into the next book. 74 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:38,580 However, I think the content of this book itself was enough to turn me off of going 75 00:04:38,580 --> 00:04:39,580 into the next book. 76 00:04:39,580 --> 00:04:43,960 I will go to the sequel and there's even like a second sequel, which is like an elegy for 77 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:50,400 Ellis, which for Alice, not Ellis, which is even stranger and even weirder and makes things 78 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:51,840 even more uncomfortable. 79 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:55,160 But again, that's that's not really something I have to go into. 80 00:04:55,160 --> 00:05:00,200 So yeah, this book is weird. 81 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:01,200 This book is really weird. 82 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:02,200 It is called Nonsense. 83 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:08,280 You know, it very well may be the seminal work of nonsense literature. 84 00:05:08,280 --> 00:05:09,280 And I agree with that. 85 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:13,320 It's interesting because nonsense is kind of a serious business if you think about it. 86 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:17,480 And the wiki mentioned something about this, but it kind of helped to codify what I wanted 87 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:18,480 to say. 88 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:19,480 So I'm not reading from the wiki. 89 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:24,000 I just I was inspired by something that said, which is that there is a talent and a trick 90 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:25,960 and a structure to nonsense. 91 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:31,240 I feel like I've said this recently in one of my recordings, but I don't think it's been 92 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,000 for this sub series of story over everything. 93 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:42,000 So I'll go ahead and share it here, which is that writing, performing and making comedy 94 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:43,840 that works is difficult. 95 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:50,280 And I mean, whether it's comedic stage play or it's a humorous book or it's a stand up 96 00:05:50,280 --> 00:05:57,560 comics routine, it is difficult to do or to make effective comedy because even though 97 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:03,160 it's light hearted and funny, there is a craft and there is a structure and there is a way 98 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,160 that things need to be done. 99 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:12,800 In fact, I heard a songwriting comedian on a podcast who is talking about the fact that 100 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:18,960 music has a tension and release cycle to it. 101 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:23,080 And he says that comedy is the same way and that the thing with stand up comedy is it's 102 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:27,720 you have even less time and you even have less word count you can use to build up the 103 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:32,520 tension, set up the scenario and then have the release, which is interesting because 104 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,360 I can see that applying here. 105 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:42,440 And I would say that while the incidents and the scenes or the set pieces or however you 106 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:48,800 want to call them in Alice in Wonderland are like, I don't have much affection. 107 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:50,640 Well, it's funny. 108 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:51,640 It's a really weird thing. 109 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:56,680 I kind of felt like I was captivated by this book and kind of taken prisoner a little bit. 110 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:01,120 And it wasn't that bad of an experience. 111 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,920 But it's not something I really want to repeat. 112 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,000 Like let me put it this way. 113 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:19,480 Lewis Carroll was obviously a brilliant man and the structure and the intelligence at 114 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:29,280 play in the absurd and nonsensical Alice in Wonderland are remarkable. 115 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:34,520 They deserve to be remarked upon because it's very well structured. 116 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:41,400 It is very intelligent and it's all silly and nonsensical. 117 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:42,400 There's a lot of wordplay. 118 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:43,400 There's a lot of puns. 119 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:49,000 There's a lot of like taking things and turning them over and exploring them from the other 120 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:53,480 side or from the inside out or the outside in. 121 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,400 And it's very interesting. 122 00:07:55,400 --> 00:08:02,240 And like, I don't know, there's a very loose narrative, which is basically this spoilers 123 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:07,320 if you haven't read it or seen the movie or anything like that. 124 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,040 Alice falls into the rabbit's hole. 125 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:18,380 She goes from absurd scenario to absurd scenario where things are awkward and brusque. 126 00:08:18,380 --> 00:08:26,600 People are brusque and violent and vulgar and sort of unhinged and they're all attacking 127 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:27,720 her. 128 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,220 And it's weird. 129 00:08:29,220 --> 00:08:34,280 There's this whole thing where Alice is shrinking and growing and shrinking and growing and 130 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,680 she references shrinking and growing in size. 131 00:08:37,680 --> 00:08:42,040 At one point she equates it to shrinking and growing in age. 132 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:51,080 And at the end of the book of the climax, Alice sort of grows up and becomes larger 133 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:52,960 and defends herself. 134 00:08:52,960 --> 00:09:02,140 And at that point she's able to free herself from whatever happened. 135 00:09:02,140 --> 00:09:07,560 And she wakes up effectively and like runs into the house for dinner or tea or whatever 136 00:09:07,560 --> 00:09:09,000 it is. 137 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:14,240 And you realize it was all sort of a dream maybe, but maybe it wasn't and who knows. 138 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:15,520 But it's absurd. 139 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:24,680 And there's something weird about the fact that she grows to great size and then she 140 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:30,100 realizes that all the troubles that had beset her were nothing. 141 00:09:30,100 --> 00:09:31,100 They were ephemera. 142 00:09:31,100 --> 00:09:35,820 They were nothing more than a dream or a fancy. 143 00:09:35,820 --> 00:09:40,600 And that all she had to do was like get up and ignore them in order to move on with her 144 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,360 life. 145 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:51,200 And that's true in one sense, but in another sense that's not true because she doesn't 146 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:52,200 really do that. 147 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:58,760 But then again, she is such a young girl, eight, maybe 10 at the most, that she doesn't 148 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:00,240 have really an arc. 149 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:07,160 There's no suggestion or notion that Alice is a flawed character. 150 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,400 We see that she's flawed. 151 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:17,760 We see that her way of viewing the world and others is not correct from an adult point 152 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:19,400 of view. 153 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:24,120 But the narrative really never gets into that. 154 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:25,120 It never examines it. 155 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:34,560 It never puts Alice under a microscope and talks about her flaws, if there are any. 156 00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:39,480 Or at least it never occurs to her that she has real legitimate flaws. 157 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:44,640 There's some things that the narrative states, the story states, or Alice thinks about and 158 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,200 we get in on that. 159 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,840 And she's totally wrong. 160 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,200 But the story doesn't say that. 161 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,360 And because it's so focused on her and her perception of herself and the world around 162 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:05,120 her, she doesn't really see that she's incorrect about things. 163 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,760 And she kind of lets herself slide on certain things that she wouldn't necessarily let other 164 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:09,760 people slide on. 165 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:10,760 And it's a little unfair. 166 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:15,600 And I'm not judging Alice Harsley because she's a child and it's written from this very 167 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:21,360 childish perspective, which is interesting because that's kind of a complaint I had about 168 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:26,480 Natalie Babbitt's, the way she told her story in The Time Everlasting. 169 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:31,080 And that was the last book I read, listened to, last book I analyzed and thought about 170 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:32,240 and chatted about. 171 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:37,760 So it's most strongly on my mind right now as I'm thinking about what Carol did with 172 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:39,240 Alice. 173 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,840 And it's strange. 174 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:51,280 I'm more forgiving of what Carol did with Alice is in the book. 175 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:59,800 And as far as the story is concerned, than I am with what Babbitt did with, what's her 176 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:00,800 name? 177 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:05,040 Winnie, Winnie Foster. 178 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:10,440 I'm more accepting of what he did with her than what Babbitt did with Foster, with Winnie. 179 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:19,480 Because while the characters in each scene and each scenario kind of do take themselves 180 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:28,880 very seriously, there is a playfulness and an impermanence and an unreality that is apparent 181 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:34,360 in the absurdity of everything going on in this wonderland that Alice finds herself in 182 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:45,920 that isn't true of Winnie's world and the scenarios that she finds herself in in Tuck 183 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:46,920 Everlasting. 184 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:51,360 So it's also unfair. 185 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,120 They're very different books. 186 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,040 And it feels a little unfair, honestly, to compare them to each other. 187 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:03,960 But I think spending some time talking about them in conversation with each other does 188 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:04,960 make sense. 189 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,240 Not that they're literally in conversation with each other, but they're two pieces that 190 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,320 I've talked about and experienced recently. 191 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:15,440 And if you're following along with me, then there's something that, you know, there are 192 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,160 two things that you've recently had an experience with. 193 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:25,080 And there are things that can be talked about in each of them, you know, that do bear on 194 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:30,680 each other or at least seem to reference each other, even though they were written, I don't 195 00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:33,440 know, 100 years apart or so. 196 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,160 And golly, I think that's interesting. 197 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,360 It's really interesting to me that, you know, taking a step backwards and looking at my 198 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:53,040 process for doing this examination of middle grade fiction, broadly speaking, is that I 199 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:58,120 have broadly, broadly, broadly broken up middle grade fiction or these stories for children 200 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:03,880 that could qualify as middle grade fiction before that was a real category in classic 201 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:05,200 and modern. 202 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:12,400 And being from, I think it's 1875, Alice's classic and being from 1975, Tucker Everlasting 203 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,240 would be considered modern. 204 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,120 And yet I see similar problems with them. 205 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:28,580 I see similar, similar craft and deafness and skill in the authors. 206 00:14:28,580 --> 00:14:31,880 But I think they're definitely going for two different things. 207 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:36,760 And wow, I don't know, I don't know how to finish that thought. 208 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:38,520 So I'm not going to. 209 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,440 If you have an idea of how to finish that thought, please let me know. 210 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,520 Give me a comment to help me out here to have this conversation, because I'm just, I'm just 211 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:47,520 not sure. 212 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:48,520 And I know I'm restraining myself. 213 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:54,120 I don't quite want to go as far as I could go because I don't think it's useful or appropriate 214 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:55,680 for the audience. 215 00:14:55,680 --> 00:15:01,840 And while I do not aim this show at a child audience, I do want it to be accessible to 216 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:10,640 children if they so desire, if their parents or guardians want to let them in on it. 217 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:18,800 On this, dare I say, like higher level conversation on these books, because while these books 218 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:25,200 are made for children, they are not read exclusively by children and they're made by adults for 219 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:26,200 children. 220 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:32,360 And therefore, while I think it is important to let the work stand on its own merits, it 221 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:37,800 is important to also thinking about what the adults who wrote these books for children 222 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,280 maybe had in mind or maybe had to say to these children. 223 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:48,600 And while I think Tuck Everlasting did have things to say to children and it didn't speak 224 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:57,400 down to children, which I think is a merit, and while maybe I didn't like what it had 225 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:10,040 to say or how it said it necessarily, I think that Carroll's book has nothing to say to 226 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:15,240 children specifically, which feels really weird. 227 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:21,680 It's almost, I don't know, it's almost an exploration of the mind and or dreams of a 228 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:31,800 child and like giving those life and breathing some breathing life into them and giving them 229 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:37,440 structure and form so that they can be explored and played with. 230 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:44,500 And maybe, maybe there's some sort of social commentary going on that I'm now many years 231 00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:49,120 divorced from Victorian England and what is it, 125? 232 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,160 Is that what it is? 233 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:58,080 Many years divorced from Victorian England and I also don't come from a culture being 234 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:04,360 born in the late 1980s in America, Southern California area, like that's so foreign to 235 00:17:04,360 --> 00:17:05,360 me. 236 00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:10,760 That culture of tea rooms and nurseries and all this propriety, which I don't think is 237 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,960 a bad thing necessarily. 238 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:25,840 I think every era has its pluses and minuses and my point is that I'm just so out of touch 239 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:33,440 with the milieu where this was written that I don't really understand certain things. 240 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,920 Certain things about it are universal, the way language is being played with and maybe 241 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:45,720 it's because I'm a self-taught writer type person and I've consumed a lot of literature 242 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,680 perhaps because of that. 243 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:57,280 Some of the jokes and games of logic that Alice has engaged in or trapped in, you could 244 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:03,800 say, they're more apparent to me than maybe your average eight year old today. 245 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,200 I kind of think Alice was supposed to be eight years old. 246 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:11,800 If you gave a modern eight year old this story, I don't know that they would appreciate it 247 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:16,640 in the same way that I'm able to and that an eight year old of Alice's time would have 248 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:25,800 been able to because of the exposure to certain concepts and ideas and manners of thinking. 249 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:30,840 I feel like if I keep going I'm going to just babble on. 250 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:31,840 What's that you say? 251 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:32,840 I've been babbling already? 252 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:33,840 Oh my apologies. 253 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,800 I didn't mean to babble but here we are. 254 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:43,000 Lest I babble on anymore and cause greater confusion, I will try to wrap this up quickly 255 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,600 by saying I think the book is very skillfully written. 256 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:52,760 I think Lewis Carroll is a very intelligent man and I think he applied his intelligence 257 00:18:52,760 --> 00:19:01,240 and his skill for logic and games very deftly here and some aspects of it are enjoyable. 258 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:09,200 In fact the Mock Turtle song is like it was a joy to experience especially in the audiobook 259 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,200 version of it. 260 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:20,920 There's something kind of magical about this but it also felt like I was like I was abducted. 261 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,620 I was taken for a ride and I didn't like it. 262 00:19:24,620 --> 00:19:28,680 Some parts of it were enjoyable but some parts of it were very unenjoyable and it was like 263 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:33,480 I can't wait for this section of the book to be over for this chapter and go to the 264 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,600 next one and see where it goes. 265 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:37,600 Is there a narrative here? 266 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,440 I don't really know if there's a narrative here. 267 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,440 It's almost like each thing was a skit or an opportunity. 268 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:52,560 Like each thing was its own self-contained unit which was created for a specific purpose 269 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,560 that I don't quite understand what each specific purpose of it was because I was waiting for 270 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:01,920 an overall narrative arc to happen and to unfold and it didn't really. 271 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,840 There's like weird questions of identity like with the caterpillar and stuff and like certain 272 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:13,320 things keep coming up about if you call a person or a thing or a place by a certain 273 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,480 name does that name matter? 274 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:17,480 Does it empower? 275 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,200 Does it change if you change the name or if you can twist the name and make a joke out 276 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,200 of it does it transform the thing into something else? 277 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,720 It sort of does but it sort of doesn't and it's a weird kind of postmodernist way of 278 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:34,200 thinking which I think there's a little utility. 279 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,400 That's almost a joke and a puzzle in and of itself. 280 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:44,040 I think there's a little utility in postmodernist thinking but I also think it's sort of toxic 281 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:52,040 because of where it leads and yeah I will restrain myself from saying much more but 282 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:56,360 I didn't really there were things that were enjoyable about the book and there were things 283 00:20:56,360 --> 00:21:01,680 that I liked but there were also areas where I was made so uncomfortable by the book and 284 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:08,560 what was going on and I don't really I don't really know again this is what I said last 285 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:13,000 time I don't know what the use is or what the purpose of this book was and I don't know 286 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,000 what benefit it was to me in reading it. 287 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:22,560 I don't feel like I was enriched by reading this book at all and I was entertained from 288 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:29,880 time to time but I was also befuddled and confused and it's not a book I will read again 289 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:35,160 and I do not plan on reading any of the sequels and if any of my children were to ask me if 290 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,240 they should read it I would tell them no it's not really worth your time. 291 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:44,200 If you want absurd writing or like absurd storytelling I would suggest just right off 292 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:51,040 the bat James and the giant peach I've listened to my family read most of it and that seems 293 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:59,640 much more beneficial and much less uncomfortable and like overall a greater experience for 294 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:04,760 an absurdist adventure and I would even say I think did we meet Charlie and Chuck's Factory? 295 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,720 I know we're not like a big Roald Dahl family but we're kind of I'm definitely interested 296 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,760 in exploring more of his work and I know some of my kids are as well just at least a couple 297 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:20,080 more things but I would definitely suggest and I do plan on reading The Wonderful Wizard 298 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:21,480 of Oz by Alfred Baum. 299 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:27,040 Alfred Baum set out to write things to write his books to be just fun fairy stories that 300 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:32,160 weren't moralistic and didn't have necessarily a message to say to children and I don't know 301 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,880 off the top of my head I couldn't tell you what the message of The Wonderful Wizard of 302 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,200 Oz is other than maybe the thing you think you need to get for yourself is something 303 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,560 that you've had all along. 304 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,440 That might be what it is but I don't think it really is I don't think it has much of 305 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:50,960 a strong message but it's definitely absurd and it's definitely charming and I've listened 306 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,800 to all 14 Oz books and I'll tell you they're absurd and charming throughout but they don't 307 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,960 make me uncomfortable like Carol's book does. 308 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:07,440 They have a more structured narrative flow to them they have an arc some arc they've 309 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,160 you know even if it's just an adventure arc of exciting things happening to our friends 310 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:16,520 and heroes throughout the books and if the characters don't change which they don't really 311 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,920 that's okay because you know things change in the world things happen in the world there's 312 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:28,680 a progression in Oz and there is some linearity there's enough of a linear through line or 313 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,480 I don't know if I'm using that properly there's enough of a forward momentum throughout all 314 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:38,800 the Oz books and within each Oz book itself that it makes the quest and the adventure 315 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:44,320 feel meaningful and at least meaningful to the characters if it's not meaningful to me 316 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:53,360 it has at least a tangible meaning and progression that benefits the characters from going through 317 00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:59,760 it versus I don't feel like that with this book at all it feels like a pointless book 318 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:04,640 it feels like a pointless story because it doesn't really go anywhere and it doesn't 319 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:11,080 end where it began in a circular way so that it feels homey and it feels like I don't know 320 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:16,900 like Alice went on an adventure and then gets to go home and is you know somewhat changed 321 00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:24,920 or whatever it doesn't feel like that to me and I'm not saying 100% that all the Oz books 322 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,720 have that feel but at least tangibly the characters are physically in a different place than where 323 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:34,240 they started or at least some of them are even if the hero Dorothy for example returns 324 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:41,340 to Kansas in the beginning or at the end of her book you know not really changed but it's 325 00:24:41,340 --> 00:24:47,160 okay there because I don't know just something something between personal preference and I 326 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:52,360 think like objectively what the books accomplish or what they do it's a real enough difference 327 00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:57,160 to make me re I'm rereading Oz books to my kids right now obviously not when I'm talking 328 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:06,000 to you but I'm I'm halfway through the series and I'm loving it and it's so wonderful whereas 329 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,600 I I can't say the same thing for Alice it's not something I'm gonna want to experience 330 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:16,880 again really and I just I don't know what makes the difference but maybe you do maybe 331 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:22,360 you do maybe you can tell me I would love if you have thoughts on this after hearing 332 00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:30,360 this to defend the book or to laud its merits I would love to hear that and yeah I I am 333 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:36,760 curious to see what other people think about this book and to see where they come down 334 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:43,920 on it because I'm I'm not against it I don't hate it I don't think it should be I don't 335 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:49,800 know like I I don't have if you didn't listen last episode I had a problem with or I have 336 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,880 a problem with Tucker everlasting I don't have that same problem with this book because it 337 00:25:53,880 --> 00:26:01,000 doesn't go in the same areas but I just wouldn't recommend it and I don't understand how it's 338 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:09,600 become a classic yeah that's about all I have to say so I'm really curious to hear what 339 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:18,080 people's feedback is on this and to hear your thoughts on Alice's adventures in Wonderland 340 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:24,800 and any other any other Carol's writings if you've read them and have thoughts and opinions 341 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:31,640 and feelings on them you'd like to share okay so I thought about this a little bit and I 342 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:40,080 have an addendum I don't understand how this story became a classic or is considered to 343 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:47,240 be a classic I shouldn't say the story this book else's adventures in Wonderland I just 344 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,280 don't understand that so if you have an argument for that or reasons why it's classic please 345 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:57,680 tell me I'd love to hear I'd love to know what you think about it second of all I don't 346 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:03,760 think there's an actual story here which is that's the crystallization of everything that 347 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:14,000 I or of most of everything that I said and that's it to quote Elaine from this is anyway 348 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:22,160 it's like a big budget movie that goes nowhere that's a paraphrase now yeah like there's 349 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:29,360 all these blinking lights and there's smoke and there's hookahs and wine and tea and all 350 00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:39,520 sorts of stuff but like nothing is of consequence and I think then therefore it logically follows 351 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:44,960 that there is no story and I don't know if you know this but to me story is the most 352 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:50,800 important thing the evidence by the fact that this is a story over everything production 353 00:27:50,800 --> 00:28:00,240 you are listening to right now so the lack of story repels me there is no endearment 354 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:07,000 strong enough nothing that I found cute or fun or funny or interesting in it is substantial 355 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:13,080 enough to keep my attention or to let this take a place in my heart because there's no 356 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:24,280 story there therefore it's meaningless to me and worthless to me but if you differ I'd 357 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:32,840 love to hear why how and what the details are that what specific things you have to 358 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,880 counter that sentiment that argument from me and if it's because you don't believe 359 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:41,240 your story is the most important thing that's okay but just then tell me what's what is 360 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:51,400 or what is you know so worthwhile in this without a story I hope you enjoyed that subscribe 361 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:56,120 to keep up with me like and share to help me reach more people like you and go to mg 362 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,960 mjmunoz.com to find your next favorite thing and don't forget to let your voice be heard 363 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:06,640 stories are always better when you're part of the conversation until next time be well 364 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:35,200 this is MJ signing out this has been a story over everything production.