Hi everyone, welcome to pot luck food talks. Today I'm with my friend Alex Chaparro, he's
a sociology solider in New York. Hi Alex, how are you doing?
Hi Eric, always good to see you, always good to talk to you. One of my longest friends
I've had in my life and always excited to see what you're up to Eric. Thanks for inviting
me. I wanted to talk with you about street food
in general, but specifically street food in New York and how can this intertwine with
sociology, with your background as a sociologist, what can you tell us about it?
Yeah, well I had a food cart of myself in New York, it was kind of my first experience of
employment in New York, kind of not wanting to have a boss and being my own boss. And
yeah, like the options of what you can do in a new city as an immigrant are kind of
limited sometimes. And we would see kind of the great value that people give towards food
and eating out here in New York. And there is kind of this lauded appreciation for a
lot of international cultures as they say, you know, like how deep rooted Chinese food
culture is in every city in the world, how deeply rooted Mexican food culture has become
everywhere in the world. And we were seeing that Venezuelan food was kind of being like
the new big hit in New York. You know, like everybody had already tried every version
of El Paso Otako, everybody had already tried, you know, every variation of full of, you
know, like these very beloved street food classics and the arepa, you know, like something
that for us is very commonplace. We eat it every morning. We don't think that highly of,
or we don't think of it being something so special. Suddenly, if you're seeing it from
an outsider's perspective, maybe like a gringo who has never tried it, you know, it's this
corn flour crunchy pita bread. It's like its own very unique experience, usually filled
with like a butter to give it some fat, a salty white cheese with black beans, sweet plantains,
avocado. So for the people who hadn't tried that, and that wasn't that common, it was
like the new thing that was blowing people's minds here. And arepas are, you know, undoubtedly
our most traditional food tied to our national identity and that we're very proud of, but
it is not the most popular food that you find in the street in Caracas, but actually is the hot
dog and hamburger, which seems kind of silly because it's a very US thing, but it speaks
to like the closeness that Venezuela has geographically to the States.
Yeah, I wanted to say that like culturally, Venezuela, the most popular sport is baseball
and not football as in the rest of South America. And there are many other indicators that show
the influence of North American culture is quite strong, but the Venezuelan hot dogs
are their own thing. I haven't seen anything like that nowhere else. Maybe in South America,
like there are other places where hot dogs could be similar, but the thing that you have like
this buffet of 20 different sauces and this act that after each bite, you add a different sauce
to your hot dog or your burger and everything is so like excessive and nasty. Like you want the burger
with extra avocado and a fried egg and bacon and you know, like everything that's quite Venezuelan.
Yeah. And it's also speaks a lot to the culture of street food, because I think the evolution
of the Perrero cart, the hot dog hamburger carts that, as I was saying, is kind of like the most
popular you would find in every corner, especially kind of in working class neighborhoods and kind of
neighborhoods next to big office buildings. And it speaks to the culture of street food, because
I think all of those variations came from competition from one cart to the other.
So like maybe the first cart was offering kind of onions and cabbage and crushed potato chips
as kind of like a special thing to make their hot dog special. And then everybody's flocking
towards that cart. So that meant that the other carts started to have to offer the same thing.
Then added to that was like the shredded cheddar cheese, you know, that kind of became like a
mountain over the hot dog. And all of these things were kind of a way to kind of one up the next
person with the burgers. It started being the same thing. It stopped being just a slice of hamburger
meat, but also a pork chop and chicken and variations like the cuatro por cuatro,
the widow maker, you know, like the idea of making kind of the most elaborate thing to catch the
attention of a consumer that has a lot of different options in the street. And yeah, the influence of
the United States culture is a good and bad thing. It kind of speaks to cultural imperialism, kind of
how much our culture in the 20th century, you know, was kind of obscured by kind of how much influence
we would come from the United States. But it's a beautiful thing of syncretism, which is something
that South America has always been kind of known for, which is like taking the influence that is
kind of force fed upon us and make it in our own. We've been doing it with like saints, you know,
the Catholic church has been trying to say like, Hey, you got to worship this thing. Oh yeah. And
we like change his clothes, change his variety, make it look more like, you know, black indigenous
people of these regions and kind of make it into our own. Yeah. And like you can find this in any
aspect of culture, I would say like music genres, like rock music or hip hop music that somehow
it's adopted by first imitating and then creating its own variation with its own identity.
Yeah. Like hip hop is a great example. Yeah. The Venezuelan hip hop culture right now is so rich.
It also kind of always speaks to me to like origin cultures too. And like been interesting
since it's been discussed recently, it's kind of like Caribbean roots of hip hop and graffiti.
You know, a lot of times we're thinking that we're taking a quote unquote United States culture
and remixing it to make our own. But if you dig in deeper, you see that for example, the first
DJs in New York city were Caribbean, right? Yeah. Got La Rock, DJ Kool Herc, who were Caribbean and
who were bringing what was happening in the Caribbean to the United States and the United
States was making a remix to that. That what's kind of like lamentable is that the United States
relies so much on the idea of cultural supremacy and cultural imperialism that they have to create
a narrative that like we created this, this is a very United States thing and everybody else is
doing it. It's just kind of imitating us. Cause if there's something that United States knows how to
do is make something really popular worldwide. But I think by kind of working through it, we are able
to dismantle all of these origins, stories, myths, and kind of make things, you know, back into like
what makes each of these individualities actually rich. Going back to the food topic, I think that
there are also examples, especially in New York of maybe the opposite, like traditions that were
required to adapt to the local demand to be understood. I could think of the Chinese. You
told me something when we were like in Chinatown eating, like how the gastronomic offer evolved
from its origin to what it is right now. I think what's interesting about that is that, you know,
a lot of great things come from that need to satisfy a palate that is not your own. Most of
the things that we understood of kind of like popular modern Chinese food, the chop suey,
all of these things are kind of an invention that happened in the United States from immigrants
trying to make what they think would appease the United States and its people. And beautiful
things come from that, you know, and not to like talk so much about the United States, but like
the hamburger, you know, like it's obviously not from Hamburg or the United States, but it's kind
of like what beautiful things can happen when things kind of get displaced and out of context
and recreated. But I wanted to talk about what you're saying now, because I was thinking about
this before jumping onto the podcast about what makes New York street food really special to me.
And to me, I think that what makes it really special is that it has an opportunity to not
have to necessarily play into those dynamics of having to satisfy someone else. And I was thinking
and this is the sociologist and me kind of going off the sidetrack, but I was thinking about this
book by Octavio Paz called the Labyrinth of Solitude. It's nine different essays about like
the Mexican identity and the title has to do a little bit about how it's kind of like a labyrinth
where you eventually will just feel lonely trying to find yourself in a identity with other people
around the idea of nationality. But on the introduction of that book, they say a really
interesting description about San Diego, California, where my mother is from. And I would like to speak,
you know, about what I know, you know, New York and San Diego in this country, at least.
And my comparison to that and using this kind of essay as a reference is that what Octavio Paz was
describing is a city where all of the architecture is Spanish, colonial and Mexican, you know,
the buildings, the houses, the plazas, they're Mexican. There's Mexican names on the streets.
There's Mexican culture everywhere. The most popular food is Mexican. But there is this very
clear divide between the white American culture that is supposedly defines San Diego and this
Mexican culture that is always there kind of in a clear separation. And it becomes kind of sad when
you think about the street food culture and kind of what that ends up representing, you know,
what do you think of when you think of Mexican food in California? That goes right like... Yeah,
but also this abomination called the burrito. Yeah, that it doesn't exist in Mexico. Yeah,
it has nothing to do with Mexican culture. And the biggest pride about, you know, LA street burritos
and San Diego, the biggest, baddest burrito. And another thing that I used to always kind of
cringe at was this idea of like the carne asada. It was always kind of pronounced with this like
American voice, carne asada burritos or carne asada fries. And to me, it was like always like kind of
really disappointing or kind of like showing how, I don't know, there was always kind of this catering
to what the gringos idea of Mexican food would be. And not to dis on it, those burritos are
really delicious. There can be really amazing, like what they call Tex-Mex food or Mexican-American
food. And it's a very rich culture about that syncretism we were talking about earlier. But
one thing that I think is really special about New York street food is that I feel that this city,
New York, is so strongly defined by its immigrant population that those white United Statesians
can't really make this claim that this is like our city and you're here to cater to us or that
the culture is defined by the United States and everybody else is like an immigrant. This city is
made, what is interesting in every corner that you see is the amount of diversity of culture
and not white United States like vacuum culture. And that's what makes it really rich in
beautiful. And if you take that to street food, you get this really rare opportunity that in one
city you're able to try, and this is kind of like a loaded term and some people like it or not, but
really like authentic food. I completely agree. I was just going to mention that in my two trips
I've had to New York, I feel that you have like a showcase of completely different cultures.
You could try a restaurant or a street food vendor from each island of the Caribbean in one week.
You could do that if you wanted in New York and you get the feeling that it's authentic. I don't
know. I've been in places like, for instance, Chinese restaurants in Germany that I feel
just someone went to an Asian supermarket and mixed all the ingredients with rice and that's
where what they're serving you. And here it was completely the opposite. You get flavors and things
that you don't find elsewhere. Yeah. And you get the experience to be amazed or be introduced to
something that you don't maybe know already and can kind of expand your heart, your life, your mind.
And that kind of really goes back to why I'm so interested in street food or why I have such a
like a strong affinity to street food. There's many variations of street food, like the cart,
the little window, the little bakery that offers things to go. But to me, it summarized or defines
by like a food that satisfies a working class's need, you know, like or a working community's need.
So it has to be usually centered around like the lunchtime or kind of the commute to work and back
to home, you know, things that you might eat sitting down and taking a long time or things
that you might eat kind of on the go walking around. And I feel that in kind of those examples,
you, for example, in a city like New York, you get a offering of food that instead of trying to
cater to like a wider population or like, you know, to call it by its name, to try to appeal
to the white bourgeoisie of the United States, there are people who are born here, which I feel
happens a lot of like the restaurant culture where we try to kind of get in on the blogs
and we try to get, you know, Peter, this person to kind of come and review us and give us the,
you know, the approval from the New York Times or from Eater. And a lot of times, you know,
those places also have a lot of interest in other cultures. And I felt that when I had my
restaurant that I felt that like the ultimate objective would be to be accepted by kind of the
snobby culture of like, quote unquote, high quality food or kind of like high dining experience.
So we were trying to make hot dogs and hamburgers, but I felt in the way that we were marketing,
the way that we were using Instagram, the way we were making our recipes, even we're kind of
always catering to try to satisfy someone else, you know? And I think I'm excited for the street
food culture future in New York. For example, at least in Venezuela, because there's a bigger
population of Venezuelans growing right now. And I'm excited to see kind of the street food culture
that maybe like instead of trying to satisfy the gentrifying neighborhood, tries to satisfy kind
of the local community that they're in, the people that are interested in getting that food
that satisfies their own taste and that creates their own kind of demand within their own community.
And then later, if anybody from the outside is interested in connecting with that,
they're welcome, but it's kind of on their own terms, you know, in a way.
Yeah, going back to the Venezuela as a gastronomical offer that can be exported.
I remember 20 years ago, there was this, what's the name, Arepa bar in New York.
20 years ago, that was the only one that was like a reference, I mean, like worldwide that I knew of
just a plain Arepa place or a plain place where you get cachapas, not like a fancy
outdoor restaurant or something like this. And this was very difficult to see like in
countries like Germany or Spain. And in the last five, seven years, this has been completely
flipped. Like you find Arepa place and cachapa places in every city, anywhere, I would say,
of course, as a consequence of the massive migration due to the social crisis right now.
Yeah. And I think that's a good example of this restaurant that you were referring to right now,
did a really good job of kind of introducing Venezuelan street food and making it attractive
to the average gringo. And they did a really good job of it. They had really good graphic design.
They had really good presentation of the dishes in Venezuela, but also that restaurant is kind
of notoriously known for making the reina pepia without mayonnaise, you know, and reina pepia is
one of like the most beloved fillings in Arepa, which is avocado chicken salad and very simple
ingredients, avocado, shredded chicken, cilantro, mayo, salt and lime. But like the mayo being a big
part of that, you know, kind of the fattiness that most simple Arepa filling you can make at home
delicious. But there was this idea that like adding mayonnaise would be gross, quote unquote,
to the United stadiums. Yeah, no, no, no, absolutely not. I've also seen the same,
I would call it a defect or not authentic variation in restaurants here in Spain,
where you see this reina pepia like dark green and it's like, no, that's not the way it is.
Like it has mayo and that's how it's supposed to be. And it's okay. And this restaurant,
it was like one was located in the lower East side in Manhattan, you know, very high wealthy area.
And the other was in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, a neighborhood known kind of as the heart of
like gentrification in New York. And that's something I kind of want to talk about next.
But we've been seeing a lot more Venezuelan restaurants open up in Jackson Heights, Queens,
and neighborhoods that might not be so gentrified or so high kind of value in the real estate
market, but there are kind of housing, you know, families, large communities, and you're seeing
kind of offering at these restaurants of patacones, of yo-yos, of things that to me are even more
interesting about kind of the rich varieties of street food in Venezuela. The yo-yos being,
for example, a sandwich made where the bread is made out of sweet plantains, made into kind of
like a patty, hard enough to handle, and then filled with like shredded beef and the typical
things you would put on a hamburger. Can you also explain patacones, what they are?
Patacones is something similar, but with green fried plantains. You fry them and then you
smash them together to make a strong enough patty, and then you fill them with like the
typical things you would fill on a street food cart for a steak sandwich or a hamburger,
which is kind of all those sauces you talked about, you know, you can put kind of salty white cheese.
I would say it's one of the most distinctive things of, I would say Caribbean, but probably
Africa as well. What I think is really beautiful about street food is that you find this amazing
richness of food culture that doesn't have to be necessarily tied to an idea of privilege,
an idea of quality linked to necessarily exclusivity or ingredients that are uncommon.
You know, sometimes a lot of times in street food we find foods that are used with very common
ingredients that doesn't have a high price point, but they can have like a deeper, rich root in
someone's love for that food that makes it so much more delicious and strong and powerful.
We've become kind of accustomed to value things by their exclusivity or their elaborate effort
to be done as a caring to us. And I see it very much in the food culture and I experienced that
having a food offering where you would feel that you would want to like make your prices every time
a little bit higher and you would want to kind of like cater to the people who are willing to pay
$14 for a burger with a brioche bun and all these status symbols or symbols of like higher quality.
And I was thinking of the example of Osaka, Japan. It was a part of Japan that was known for its
merchants. It was like known for the people who would sell garments and you know just basically
the things you would sell to people kind of on the street and stores. At one point there was this
emperor who decided that the merchants were in the lowest caste of society. So officially and by decree
of the government they weren't allowed to buy property and they weren't allowed to like serve
in high ranks in the government and such. So they were kind of ostracized with their money kind of
like in this way like this anti-capitalist sentiment like hey you sell shit to me you're like the worst
of the worst you're just trying to get money out of my pocket and fuck you merchants suck. But I
thought it was really beautiful that what kind of emerged in Osaka is the fact that since people
didn't have money to spend on a house or belongings that would have kind of equity that would have
greater value over time they developed a culture where people would just spend all their money on
food and drinking. So these merchants would get out of work and they would have nothing else to do
with their money so they would drink and eat out because that's the only thing they could do with
their money. And Osaka made some of the most iconic street foods of Japan that are really popular all
over the world now like takoyaki the balls of squid with batter that are fried in little balls
okonomiyaki the cabbage pancake. Oh yeah a lot of this comes from the streets of Osaka
of not having anything to do with your money than to like spend it and enjoy it you know and this
idea again about like the bougieness of like fine dining experience of trying to get the most
artisanal rose for your coffee or the highest grade hot dog or that was bespokely made by a butcher
in Red Hook guanas whatever then the experience of just the street food culture where you just
have to you know everybody you know the merchant the person who doesn't really have high status in
life enjoy really delicious experiences on a day-to-day basis. Yeah I wanted to ask you about like
a top five of your favorite street food bites and why in the context of everything you just said.
Going back to New York thinking about these like iconic things of eating out in the street that can
like blow your mind and blow your heart and soul I'll talk about the neighborhood that I live in
which is Crown Heights Brooklyn it's known to be kind of one of the biggest hubs for the West
Indians la jantillas as we know it in Spanish in the Caribbean and two of the things that I
really love the most are rotis and bakes these are again kind of like a covered in bread meat
you can take it out to go the roti is this really delicious flat bread is it like a shredded potato
like the french roti or something completely different well it's an Indian flat bread okay but
it became really popular in the West Indies and I think what's really interesting about it is that
it has some sort of grain kind of involved in it too like a pea flower okay and shredded peas
within the bread itself and so it has this very kind of like I don't know how to describe it kind
of like this really flaky bread with a lot of fluffiness to it and it's usually filled with
like a chicken stew a curry goat an ox tails too and one of the things that I think kind of like
makes it really dear to my heart and that reminds me a lot of back home is this like delicious
tamarind sauce oh yeah that usually goes along with it sometimes it can be spicy sometimes it
can be not but it's usually sweet and for anybody who likes barbecue or the idea of kind of like a
sweet condiment to me this takes that to like the next level by adding that you know tanginess and
citrus flavor of the tamarind which is so delicious and the other dish that I really like around my
neighborhood is the bake and codfish which is it's called bake but it's actually fried and it's
this big disc of fried bread which like kind of the most easy way to understand it is like a savory
donut or a donut that hasn't been added any sugar or glazing so it has that same kind of feeling
that you would have with kind of fried bread of a donut they open up in the middle and they fill it
with salt fish salad so like a cod or a bacalao a salted fish that is broken down mixed with aki
different vegetables so you totally have this for breakfast this fried donut filled with salty fish
with tamarind sauce this is also from also from west indies okay and you'd normally find in most
of the bakeries here and usually you can only get it till 11 a.m because it's a breakfast food
and to me i would have to say that it's like my top breakfast experience you know to eat this like
fried bread filled with salty fish it reminds me a lot of the empanada de cazon in minnesota
which is usually like a corn flour empanada filled with baby shark salad yeah like a baby
shark stew i would say like yeah like stewed in a tomato sauce my god you know that experience
erish you know how good that could be the beauties of street food or street food culture which is
which is what happens in chinatown or the chinatowns in new york which are really kind of
well known there's many different chinatowns in new york there's a manhattan one there's a brooklyn
one in sunset park and the one in flushing queens the one in flushing and one in brooklyn
they're just bigger there's more variety with the regions of china that are usually represented
there but the one in manhattan is one of my favorites just because i'm usually around
the manhattan and it's such a beautiful experience to get to walk through it in chinatown you see
this beautiful example of a community kind of serving itself about the dollar of that immigrant
population staying within that community and it kind of speaks a lot to kind of the problems or
kind of the challenges that immigrants have in the united states where you usually have this
offering about integration like integrate within the country integrate within the idea of the
american dream or the american promise and a lot of people are like hey yeah but i've seen what that
ends up with a lot of different cultures like the african-american culture how you know the idea of
the democrats is like oh integrate be part of this and then you see kind of the offerings of like
people like malcolm x or black nationalists where they're like hey no a stronger way to kind of
make our communities stronger is by creating self-reliance by understanding the people who
are creating self-reliance by understanding how we have to kind of protect ourselves and kind of
cater ourselves first there's a lot to unpack there and a lot to talk and we'll talk about that in
another podcast but you see it in chinatown this offerings on street food that seem to be the
cater to like people's kind of like comfort foods and to me one of the greatest comfort foods that
would take a lot of happiness to be able to connect with in new york is kanji which is kind of that
it's like a rice soup not right it's a rice porridge again talking about kind of the idea
of something being valuable because it's exclusive or it's high value ingredients or high cost
ingredients kanji started as a way to kind of feed more people with less food so the way that you
normally make it is kind of like you're making rice you normally would make rice with two cups
of water one cup of rice this was usually like 12 cups of water for one cup of rice and to cook it
for a long time for it to create that starchiness a food that kind of expands and multiplies but
again even in if you're satisfying kind of the need to feed yourself economically it doesn't
mean that it doesn't have to be something that can be incredibly valuable personally culturally
and as a food experience so kanji is usually there's like chicken kanji there's octopus kanji
there's multiple mushroom kanji there's different kind of stews that can go into it different
presentations usually be served with fried bread so especially in the city that has such a cold
winter as new york being able to go to chinatown and find kind of like different places that have
their own servings of kanji you see kind of like a big pot with a nice crust of starch around the
edge and yeah having this like big hot goopy rice porridge with like savory pieces of chicken and
soy sauce and a fried bread to dump into it it's one of the best experiences my my favorite food
experiences i can't wait for you to come back eric to to take you to some of my favorites yeah
i remember we walked by and it was closed if i'm if i don't remember wrong but i i that was a super
nice walk we had in chinatown we had we had dim sums different types of skewers cakes it was special
because it was kind of a lot of places that we could kind of stop in and out there were foods
that you can take kind of on the go so we started with some vietnamese beef jerky ah yeah as it's
known here so it's just like dehydrated meat that is condimented beforehand super delicious and then
we stopped by a few bakeries that had pork buns one specifically known for its pork and pineapple
buns so it's kind of like a sweet pastry filled with pork and we also had some egg custard buns
which to me were a big highlight we thought they were going to be savory but they were actually
kind of sweet and so it's just kind of the yolk of the egg inside of a kind of like a bowel type
bun but with i would say 50 50 between savory and sweet but a really delicious experience
i really wanted to you to take you to the skewer carts that they had in grand but i'm just finding
out that it's more of like a nighttime cart than a daytime when we went and it's this cart that has
this delicious skewers served over charcoal so you get this feeling of eating something in a barbecue
right in the street of you know middle of manhattan and they usually have like enoki mushroom covered
with bacon king oyster mushrooms scallops covered in bacon sweet potatoes wrapped in aluminum foil
put into the charcoals so a food that you can eat in the street that is again incredibly delicious
we also stopped by the dumplings and some of my favorite dumpling spots that again are kind of
really well known in new york because they appear in every like cheap eat list like oh you can have
four or five delicious chive and pork dumplings that are fried or steamed for a dollar 50 in new york
and i know i'm like contradicting myself because i was just saying earlier how these things can be
valuable specifically because they're not expensive but i also want to kind of highlight how i also
don't really like when it's kind of always thought as like a cheap food like i like to think of it
it's like not bougie like not unnecessarily overpriced or not unnecessarily sold to you
as a as a marker of privilege but more as something that can have just value in and of itself
it being affordable is something that obviously makes the experience of eating to me at least
much happier but i don't like to think of it as like cheap food and like when i like to look for
dumplings in manhattan i don't necessarily like to go follow the cheap food guides because most of
that food is already kind of inexpensive so sometimes those cheap food i'd would send you
oh these dumplings are only a dollar a dozen but you know the store next door has them for a dollar
fifty a dozen and they're they're really good too you know like it doesn't necessarily have to go
for like these like porn of cheapness or of unexpensiveness a lot of the things i'm talking
about in this podcast they're nuanced you know like catering to other people sometimes can create
really beautiful things sometimes fine dining experiences can be amazing authentic is something
that is like a very questionable term to use because sometimes people want you to be authentic
and that means that you can't really change a recipe of where you're from and i think that's
bullshit you know like there's a lot of offerings i think in new york city that might not be
traditional but they're still authentic all of this is kind of to just say that i think the
experience of eating the experience of connecting with the city is always enriched when you read
about its history when you read about the different factors involved when you talk to the people
that's eating there when you kind of see the like cultures and dynamics that are connected to a
specific food and when you kind of eat and connect to a city like that it really enriches your
experience and kind of makes you a more nuanced experience but i think culture and the dynamics
of power in cities in the 21st century that we're living now it's incredibly complex but it always
kind of starts a conversation that's why it's interesting to go kind of on a food tour with you
you know to listen to these types of podcasts or kind of to like learn more about the foods that
we're shoving our faces another thing i will say is that the idea of authenticity and kind of like
cheapness or unaffordability has to be sometimes kind of seen with a little nuance because that
that can be also problematic too when sometimes people are like oh no tacos have to be cheap
tacos are cheap and that's a cheap food and then you see kind of like offerings like
enrique olivera or cosme or something like that and it is really groundbreaking when you take that
type of food and present it kind of on the world stage of you know fine dining so you have to be
careful to not fall into another colonizing mindset of kind of seeing things in a way that
you want to exoticize them or want to kind of make them fit into your idea of what they're supposed
to be because again it falls again to what we were saying earlier about the other person catering to
you the other person being there to satisfy your expectation and what we kind of i think is beautiful
about connecting with street food is to actually connect beyond your perspective you know like
expanding it expanding what you know being kind of humbled by what your expectation of something
can be so like cheap food can be expensive expensive food can be cheap cheap food can be bad
expensive food can be bad you know it's about connecting something that has a little bit more
soul and kind of history behind it that's it for this week's episode of potluck food talks if you
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