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Hi everyone, welcome to Potluck Food Talks. Today we're going to talk about Bolivian traditional

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ancestral potluck with Bolivian chef Mauricio Lopez. He's a chef from Ancestral, which is

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a restaurant exploring the boundaries of grill and barbecue cooking, but also of traditional

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and ancestral recipes from Bolivia. Hi Mauricio, how are you?

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Hello Eric, thank you for the invitation. I wanted to ask you, I don't even know how

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it's correctly pronounced, Aptapi. This is like a Bolivian tradition, right?

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Yes, yes, exactly. I'm not sure exactly what it's pronounced to, but I think it's Aptapi.

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Okay. Yeah, it's a Bolivian tradition. It's more

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than, it's not a plate actually, it's a way of eating. It's a meal prepared for special

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occasions and the idea is to share, you know, everyone brings something. Normally something

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from the harvest and you choose the best things you have and you bring it to the parish.

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This is from the Aymara people, right? Yes, Aymara, especially from all the Altiplano

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in Bolivia, from the higher part. So the Aymara, just explain, is an indigenous

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people that live in the Andes in South America, primarily in Bolivia, but also Peru and Chile,

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and they have a super rich cultural tradition and long history of agriculture, farming.

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So in this Aptapi is kind of like a picnic, right?

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Yeah. Or everybody brings something to eat. Can

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you share some of the things that you could find in an Aptapi?

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The basics is different kinds of potatoes, also some cheese, fava beans, green beans,

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sweet beans, and llama meat. So stuff you can find around and everyone brings something

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different. Also fish from the Lake Titicaca and other high altitude lakes like Eastby,

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Trout, and Maury and other types of fish. That's basically it. And the idea is everyone

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brings something different and they share what they have.

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One particular thing that you find in all the Andean cuisine is chuno.

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Yes. Can you tell us a little bit about this particular,

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like also like an ancient technique? There's two different ones. One is called,

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one of the most important ones, one is called chuno and the other one is called tunta. So

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it's a way to conserve the potato. This can be conserved basically forever. I mean, I

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think they found 2000 year old chunos that you just eat rotate again and they're working.

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Nothing happened to it. So it's the best way to keep it good for a very long time. Normally

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they do it with the last potatoes they have on the small ones, the ones that don't look

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that pretty. And the process is very interesting because it's the first documentary ever dry

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freeze of an ingredient. Yeah. I saw that if you look for dry freezing

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for lyophilization and on food and cooking of Harold McGee, he will talk about chuno

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and the Andean technique that was, because as you say, this has been made for thousands

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of years. There were dry freezing potatoes and later you can rehydrate them and eat them

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like fresh potatoes. So that's basically it, right?

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Yeah, exactly. You just hydrate them again and then cook them a bit longer than normal

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potato, but it's good again. But it has a special taste of course, no?

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Yeah. It's a very strong taste. And the potatoes are like gray or dark gray black, right?

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Yeah. There are two types. One is the chuno is almost black. That one, the difference

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is that it's only, they don't color it when it's dried on the sun. So the basic process

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is you put the potato to dry during the day in the sun and at night it freezes. So that

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when it's repeated, it de-hydrates the product and also freezes it. So we have to be in the

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altiplano that has that special climate that is really hot during the day and it's really

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cold during the night. Yeah. And also probably the altitude influences

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on this as well. Of course. Yeah. And the difference is that the

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chuno, the black one receives sunlight. It's not covered, so it becomes more obscure. And

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the tunta first is cleaned on a river, cleaned up for a long time. So most of the water goes

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away and the starch and then is de-rotated and freezed the same way with the difference

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that it's not directly under the sun. They use fresh herbs or stuff in the top so it

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doesn't get the sunlight directly and end up white as a chalk.

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I also wanted to ask you, this tradition, especially at Actapia, how has this evolved

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over time? Is this still being done today and is it different from, let's say, 50 or

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100 years ago? I think it doesn't have changed much because

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it's not only a meal for a party, but it's also a way for people to talk with each other

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in the small towns and it's also very political. Okay.

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So is where they discuss the loss or what happened during the day or how they're going

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to harvest the next one or what's the plan for the future, if there's any problems in

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the community, that's where you talk about it. So the food is important, but it's mostly

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about what people are saying about communication. Same as now. When you go out and eat, of course

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you go for the food, but normally you go to talk with someone else in a meeting. As Ferran

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Adria said, food is the biggest social network we have.

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Have you incorporated in your menu and ancestral some kind of dishes that you could find in

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an Actapia or like in traditional Ayubara cuisine?

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We use the ingredients. Almost the same ingredients that we have on an Actapia, they're all over

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the menu in the restaurant. Yes, because we're in the same place, we have the same ingredients

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and the idea of the restaurant of people having fun, chatting and just having a good time,

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eating well is what we want on ancestral. The first thing we wanted is like we want

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a restaurant where people will go and enjoy and have fun. And I think that's the same

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idea, you know, and gather with their loved ones or have meetings. That's the idea of

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the restaurant. And I think it's also based on the base of the Actapia.

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Since you're already talking, can you say a little bit more about the restaurant? So

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what I know is that it's specialized in grilled meat. It's kind of inspired to some point

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in Basque grilling. It also works mostly with, I don't know, mostly or only with Bolivian

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products. Can you tell us a little bit?

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We always have a hard time explaining what we do. But it is, yeah, first of all Bolivian

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products. We only use Bolivian products, which is fun. We don't have sea, we don't have sea

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food. So we use just things from the earth and from the lakes, of course. And everything

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is cooked some way on the grill, on the barbecue, on a stone oven and directly to the fire.

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So the idea is basically that is local products and the use of fire. We're inspired very much

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by the grills on San Sebastian, of course, is one of the biggest inspirations. Also the

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grills from different parts of the world. I've been in Sweden and I cook in a restaurant

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called Exstedt.

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Ah, yeah. I know the head chef of Exstedt. What's her name? Florencia?

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Florencia, yes. Of course.

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I worked with her many years ago in Catalonia.

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Yeah, she told me. In Spain in...

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Racó de Canfabas.

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Yes. Yeah, she told me.

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Ah, that's funny. And I actually found her once in a museum in Berlin, randomly. But

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she's a super good chef, right?

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Yeah, she's super good. When I was there, I think she was sous chef still and there

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was a Chilean chef and now she's the head chef.

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Nice.

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And the owner is this guy called Nikola Exstedt, which is super famous in Sweden. And the food

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is amazing. It's one star and everything is cooked on the grill. They even do the stocks

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over the fire. Just to be loyal with the philosophy. I was impressed by that. And that's where

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I started thinking about the type of restaurant I wanted. And I saw that and I thought it

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was super cool because it was a grill, but it was modern, it was different. It was not

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the cuisine, of course. And they do everything, everything. Even the sides, they're made on

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this old iron cast cuisine that works with wood.

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Yeah, with wood fire. Wow.

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They go to the extreme. Nothing is cooked on anything electrical or gas. They don't

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have a gas line. I think there's one induction if you need it somewhere there, if you're

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doing pastry or something. But as I told you, even the stainless steel pots were on the

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fire for the stocks.

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I also wanted to ask you, do you serve anticochos as an ancestral?

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We do serve anticochos.

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And I wanted to ask you about the difference of anticochos from Bolivia than from the

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ones from Peru. Because when I was living there, that's something that really impressed

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the people. I think the Bolivian ones are much better, sorry if someone from Peru is

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listening. And even people from Peru were really impressed, like, what? But this is

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completely different. And also, it has this peanut sauce on top. So just to explain, to

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introduce, anticochos are like skewers, sold in the street. It's like a street food. And

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it's a long skewer and it's made out of heart.

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Ox heart.

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Ox heart.

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There's a lot of similarities between Peru and Bolivia because we have the same culture.

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We even were the same country for a while. Bolivia was Alta Peru. So we have a lot in

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common and most of our history is shared. Specifically, the beginning is after the colony.

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So we have a lot of things in common, like for example, the herbs you use, this type

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of cooking. So when a Peruvian sees an anticocho in Bolivia, thinks that we bring it from there.

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Nobody actually was here before we became, we were Bolivia. So it's very interesting.

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We share a lot and that's super nice actually because they have their way of doing it. Super

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famous in Peru. And they are so good at marketing their food that everyone in the world knows

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that anticocho is Peruvian. But there is, interestingly, there is the Bolivian version

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also.

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I think the difference is when it's cooked over a planchette, the Peruvian one, normally,

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I might be wrong. Please don't hang me any Peruvians there. The ones I tried are on a

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planchette, but also with charcoal in the bottom, but it's a planchette. It's not grilled.

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So it doesn't have the direct contact. And the pieces are thicker.

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Yeah. The Bolivian ones are really thin.

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Really thin. Yeah. The pieces are thicker and I think they're more seasoned than the

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Bolivian ones.

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And the peanut sauce, the peanut sauce is a Bolivian thing or both have?

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Yeah, the peanut sauce is a Bolivian thing. Yes.

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And this is like dehydrated yellow chili, peanut. How is that sauce made?

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Yeah, basically the yellow chili and peanuts. And then someone add some stuff, garlic, cumin,

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it depends, but that's the basic.

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Yeah. They also have like this secret sauces. And I remember if you see like an anticocho

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vendor in Bolivia, they have like this brushes with a super secret marinade that no one knows

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what it is. And they brush the anticochos and the whole thing generates fire in front

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of you. So it's quite a thing.

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Yeah, exactly. And it's something you eat normally at 2 AM in the morning after buying.

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So it's a very important food for us. And it's very delicious. Everyone likes it. I

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haven't heard anyone saying they didn't like it or didn't even love it.

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Since we're talking about Bolivian street food, there is also this story. I remember

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when living there, that there was this legendary vendor with the best sandwich, the chola,

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which is like a sandwich made of pork leg, right? Like a roasted pork leg and then with

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some pickles and what else?

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Yellow chili, a sauce made of yellow chili.

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And it's amazing. And there were like these two vendors, one like 10 meters from the other

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and you would have to queue to have like a sandwich on one and the other one was empty.

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Really empty. And you would have to queue. One was people waiting and nobody would go

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to the other one. And I was like, what's going on here? And there was this story that the

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two are sisters and they had like a fight that never talked to each other ever again.

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And people would go just to the one on the left and not to the one on the right until

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the one on the left was sold out, it's over, nothing else. Everybody would migrate to the

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other one. I remember we had to have both because we were the last ones. And I can tell

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you, yeah, it was much better. The first one. Yeah. Super much better. Yeah. I don't know

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what she does, but I think she steams the pork. She has the leg on a steamer the whole

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time. Okay. So it's always hot and like nice. It doesn't dry up. And I think that's the

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key between many others. But I saw that. It's the only one I saw doing that because the

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rest just cook the pork and then they have it somewhere and it's cold, but this tastes

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like very fresh cooked pork.

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So just to close down a little bit this chat, what challenges do you have like when it comes

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to promote Bolivian gastronomy? You recently were named the one to watch by the world,

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the Latin American 50 best restaurants. What impact has that had on your restaurant and

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your career?

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Yeah. The one to watch was really helpful. We didn't expect it to be honest. We just

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want a restaurant where people can enjoy themselves. We can do Bolivian products. And also we on

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the staff enjoys cooking. That's the basic. And thankfully we're getting some attention

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from other media and it's super good. I mean, we're really, really happy. And it's like

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today at night, we were fully booked every day. That's not normal in Bolivia. And yeah,

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it's helping us a lot and it's helping us exactly what you're saying. More people are

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looking at Bolivia right now and that's what we want.

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It's pretty cool. There are like how many new restaurants in the list? Like we have

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Popular, Alipacha, Ancestral, Gusto.

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Bayawi.

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Bayawi. I don't know that one. Is that a new one?

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Yeah. In a beautiful place, beautiful house. Yeah. That one. And there's another one in

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Santa Cruz called Sacha. Those are the six restaurants.

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Oh, nice. Six. It's a lot.

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Yeah. We start from one, then zero, and then one again, and then two, and now six.

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Nice.

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That's amazing. That's exactly what we want to do. I think that's the challenge, how to

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bring ice because I think cooks are doing the right job. I think there is a different

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type of restaurants, especially in La Paz, which is where I live and I know better. In

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La Paz, there is many different types of good quality restaurants that do local food or

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local ingredients and they are very unique around Latin America. So I think La Paz has

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a very, very, very interesting scene and it's moving and it's growing and it's for all

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the prices, like from super fine dining menus to lunch menus that are very, very cheap and

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they are super good quality. So it's for everyone. The challenge is how to make the rest of the

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world know about it. Because Bolivia is a country that's in the middle of the continent.

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We don't have connections directly with the sea or anything else that help us to bring

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more customers. We don't have the airport that Lima has that everyone passes through

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there. So I think that's the challenge. We have Salar de Uyuni, it brings a lot of people

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from outside.

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Yeah. Just to point out, Salar de Uyuni used to be like a lake, like in ancient prehistoric

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times and it dried out. So it's like a super infinite wide landscape. It's a crazy thing.

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Yeah, exactly. And it's beautiful. I think it's one of the most beautiful places on earth.

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If you see the photos, just Google Uyuni.

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Yeah, it's amazing.

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It looks magical. It's the largest salt flats in the world. And that brings a lot of tourists

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and those tourists go to La Paz or to the other departments and they can see more about

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Bolivia. But yeah, Bolivia is super huge in diversity. So you can have the Altiplano and

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biking, I mean, from taking a bike three hours, you can find from potatoes, altitude potatoes

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or stuff from the altitude. You can find papayas, pineapples, stuff like that.

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Yeah. Super, super diverse.

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Super diverse and super short time. So I think that's the challenge. We need to bring more

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people from outside to see what we're doing. Even the local market is moving more. The

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young people are eating out more. They're trying this type of restaurants. And yeah,

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that's the idea. That's what we want to do. We want to bring to the scene Bolivian products.

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We want to bring something new and fresh, especially when we think about our plates,

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we think more about what can we take out from the plate instead of adding it. So we try

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to make a very simple food. And I think that's going to bring some freshness and something

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different to the Bolivian scene.

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That's it for this week's episode of potluck food talks. If you like what we're doing,

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make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. You can also find us

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on Instagram and Tik Tok as potluck food talks. The show airs every Monday.