1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:11,760 Hi everyone, welcome to potluck food talks. Today we're going to talk about paella Nazis. 2 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:16,440 So Phil, you're not a paella Nazi, right? You hate people messing around with traditional 3 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,040 recipes. Well, what can you tell us about it? 4 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:24,840 You know, I don't know why you're accusing me like that. I feel like I'm a pretty free 5 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:29,840 spirit when it comes to paella. But we both, I think, know you definitely more than I, 6 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:34,880 but we know a lot of people in Spain that take it very, very seriously. Sometimes a 7 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:35,880 little bit too seriously. 8 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:41,440 Yeah, no, I agree. And I think that there's a reason for it since I'm Venezuelan, but 9 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:47,960 I have Spanish heritage and German heritage. So I kind of see sometimes like the things 10 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,960 that are lost in translation. And when it comes to paella, there is definitely a case 11 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:59,600 because like for Spaniards paella is paella, a specific type of rice cooked in a specific 12 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:05,360 pan with a specific set of ingredients. And whatever is outside of those, that set of 13 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:10,920 ingredients, it's just rice. So of course you can bring that to another country and 14 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,200 say, Oh no, you can't call this paella. You have to call this rice, even if you're cooking 15 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:20,240 it in a paella pan. So whatever is cooked in a paella pan in other countries, it's called 16 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,280 a paella variation, which is not allowed in Spain. 17 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,600 Yeah, yeah, they're very serious about it. But then like again, you know, it's kind of 18 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:32,160 like, like you say, like everything else just falls under the title arroces, you know, because 19 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:37,440 I mean, in Spain, there's not that much of a culture eating white rice as much. But I 20 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:43,380 mean, obviously rice is a huge part of the Spanish cultural identity. I mean, rice is 21 00:01:43,380 --> 00:01:47,680 so quintessentially Spanish. So like, can you break it down for us? What exactly is 22 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:53,280 the difference between what paella is, so paella valenciana, and what other like how 23 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,840 it differentiates itself from other Spanish rice? 24 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:01,360 I mean, other Spanish rice, there are many, many specific rice. I like very much one that 25 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:07,120 is only with codfish and cauliflower, and there is nothing else to it. And I think that's 26 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:13,680 a pretty cool combination. But you have black rice, you have arroz a banda, and so on. So 27 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:22,200 for paella nowadays, I would say it has chicken, flat beans, garrafon beans, sometimes artichokes, 28 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:28,040 and the saffron, of course. And around that, there are many variations. If you go historically, 29 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:32,520 and that's something like most paella Nazis probably don't know, the oldest paella that 30 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:39,600 has been found in Britain used rat de Lemporda, which is a country rat. It's kind of like 31 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:47,600 a beaver sized hamster. It looks like, or maybe also similar to a cuy. You know, this 32 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,640 cuy, this giant hamster that is also cooked in Peru. 33 00:02:50,640 --> 00:02:52,160 Kitty picket, yeah. 34 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:57,680 Yeah, this was replaced by rabbit at some point, and then chicken. So in any case, it's 35 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:02,800 a white meat piece of the animal protein, then the vegetables are pretty much the same, 36 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:09,120 and that's it. Then there is people, of course, when you start you add some shredded tomato. 37 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:15,200 And just before it starts burning, you add the paprika. There are variations where you 38 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:20,840 add the rice before you add the liquid. This would be the Alicante variation, but the Valencian 39 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:25,880 variation, you first add the stock, and there is a specific way of measuring and adding 40 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:33,200 the rice in a straight line. And then usually at the end, when it's almost finished, you 41 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:40,160 put the fire to the maximum to create like a crust, which is called a soca rat. And this, 42 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:46,320 again, this is something that very curious people here do. And I've known many people 43 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:52,400 that they had their first contact with paella in Latin America, like myself, that don't 44 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:57,520 like this, don't like the soca rat, don't like some things that are done in the original 45 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:02,320 ways of paella. You have to understand that Latin America was a Spanish colony. So like 46 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:09,000 there is a paella that evolved in its own direction in Latin American countries. When 47 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:14,400 people talk about adding chorizo to the paella, it's again a mistranslation because there 48 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:21,040 are many things that would be called longaniza or chistorra in Spain, more like grilled sausages 49 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:26,920 that are used in paella in many countries in South America. You will find this even 50 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:32,280 in Spanish restaurants run by Spanish people in Latin America. So that's what I can 51 00:04:32,280 --> 00:04:38,960 say then. Another key point is like the thickness of the rice. The most gourmet rices and paellas 52 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:43,960 you will see in Spain, they have only one layer of rice and that's something like very 53 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:48,680 high end. But like in the most traditional ways, you have like a good layer of one to 54 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:53,960 two centimeters, but no more than that. You see also paellas made abroad and they have 55 00:04:53,960 --> 00:05:04,120 like this 10 centimeters layer of rice. I've seen even in newspaper pictures putting paellas 56 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:13,840 as an example with lime, which is not Spanish at all. And I'm pretty sure the flavor that 57 00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:21,640 it generates, it's correct. But I do understand that people get upset about it. Same as I 58 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:26,920 do get upset when I see cua libre made with white rum or these kinds of things that are 59 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,920 not acceptable if you belong to a culture. 60 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:34,440 Yeah. I also grew up with these like really bastardized paellas where you just have like 61 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:40,560 10 centimeters of rice, like fluffed up almost like basmati rice, right? Where it's like 62 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:46,960 fluorescent yellow, it just tastes of saffron and it's loaded up with seafood, you know? 63 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,960 But seafood often isn't even cooked in the rice or anything. And it's just like, if you 64 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,160 know what real paella is, it's kind of like the first time you see it. Because really 65 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:59,760 it's something very minimalist, you know? And that's what I like about it. It's like 66 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:04,040 the quality of the rice is super important. And then like you say, the best paellas that 67 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:10,000 I've had, they had almost just like one grain of rice layer. The rice was completely flat. 68 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:15,180 There was not one grain on top of each other. All the grains perfectly intact, cooked to 69 00:06:15,180 --> 00:06:20,500 a point where it's still what you would call al dente and the socarrat. 70 00:06:20,500 --> 00:06:24,720 It's like, it's so simple. And then the garnish would only be like maybe a little bit of vegetables, 71 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,680 some like flat, like, you know, broad beans or whatever. And then a little bit of protein. 72 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,480 But really the rice is the most important thing about it. 73 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:37,120 Yeah, I agree. Actually, the most traditional versions, they don't even use stocks. The 74 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:42,760 most traditional ones are made with water. I guess at some point it was just logical 75 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:49,000 to add a strong stock to a paella. And on that, I also have my opinion. I've tried 76 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:56,840 with beef stock, fish stock or other seafood stocks and chicken. And for me, the best result 77 00:06:56,840 --> 00:06:58,160 is with chicken personally. 78 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:04,120 Oh yeah? Really? Yeah. I mean, I've also, you know, like I, once you delve, it's such 79 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,480 a deep culture and there's so many like different approaches to like how to cook rice, you know, 80 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,680 it's a really, really broad spectrum. You know, people think of Spanish rice and they 81 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,920 always think of paella, but there's so many variations. There's so many different combinations 82 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:21,220 and also like very unusual approaches in a sort of international kind of point of view, 83 00:07:21,220 --> 00:07:25,960 you know, like they, you know, I mean, just talking about the stock, of course, but also 84 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,560 like a sofrito, you know, like I remember I was cooking in Mexico with some Spanish 85 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:36,680 chefs and they were specializing in rice and they were making different sofritos. One that 86 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:41,400 stood out was one made from green peppers. And then I was kind of thinking to myself, 87 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,000 I was like, you know what, like green peppers aren't really used that much like around the 88 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:50,040 world, but in Spain they hold a very, very particular place in cooking. Yeah. Yeah. And 89 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:54,440 they were caramelizing this down. I mean, as a sofrito for people who don't know, you 90 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:59,520 know, it can be many things, but it's basically like vegetables or tomato or garlic. And it's 91 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,040 basically cooked down and caramelized for a really, really long time until you have 92 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:10,800 a very flavor intense base paste. I once saw a guy making a sofrito for two days, cooking 93 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:17,960 it like a minimum temperature until the tomato was like super dark brown. It was amazing. 94 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:24,360 Yeah. Was he, was he also a paella Nazi? Probably. I mean, this guy was Catalan. I mean, if you, 95 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,080 yeah, see, see if you're, if you're having, if you're putting a dedication to cook your 96 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:32,480 sofrito down for two days, I think like something in your brain, something in your brain is 97 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:37,920 wired in a different way than the rest of the world. You're a bit of a maniac, but, 98 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:42,000 but yeah, you know, I mean, like if you compare it to, you know, like tomato concentrate that 99 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:47,280 you get in the tube and it's like super reduced and like very, if you get a good quality ones, 100 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:52,840 like super umami rich, it makes a lot of sense. You know, you're caramelizing and you're reducing 101 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:58,720 the water without burning. So you're just concentrating the flavor. And yeah, I mean, 102 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:04,760 for me, it's like the best one that I've had was by far with Caldo de Marisco, which with 103 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:09,960 a mixed seafood stock, there was these same guys in Mexico that I was cooking with and 104 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:14,880 they, they were saying that all the stocks that they add, they want to get to a point 105 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:20,640 where you could easily just serve the stock as a really delicious soup. And they said, 106 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,760 if it's not at that point, then you shouldn't use it to cook rice. 107 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:30,500 I agree. Like, it's like, like with risotto, like the stock is a dish. You just add rice 108 00:09:30,500 --> 00:09:34,200 to it. Yeah. But then again, with risotto, you know, you have to advantage that even 109 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:39,400 if your stock isn't like super powerful at the end, you add a shit ton of cheese, you 110 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:45,760 know, which is gonna and butter and butter, which is gonna umph your flavor like massively. 111 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,600 But like with, with Spanish rice is like, you don't have to like, I think there it's 112 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:54,400 really apparent that if you, if your broth is not strong enough and your sofrito is not 113 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,280 balanced enough, then you can really tell afterwards. 114 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:03,260 Yeah, I mean, but then I go back to the traditional ones. The ones you see like at homes are many 115 00:10:03,260 --> 00:10:08,500 times made with water because you already have you're using pieces of meat with bones, 116 00:10:08,500 --> 00:10:12,360 you have some vegetables and you have a strong sofrito. So there's your broth, you're going 117 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:19,040 to cook it like for enough time. So to take the flavor out of all these elements. But 118 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:24,480 of course, if you want to make a higher end paella, the stronger the stock, the better 119 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,200 the result. For sure. 120 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,600 Yeah, I guess. I mean, I guess we're talking about restaurant quality, you know, not to, 121 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:35,680 I mean, really, like when I think about like, I mean, I've never I've only ever cooked these 122 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:40,560 sort of like very elaborate rice as either in a restaurant or with other chefs, you know, 123 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:45,140 where you end with and the passion and the like dedication towards the simple rice dishes 124 00:10:45,140 --> 00:10:49,080 from from Spanish chefs is insane. They take it super, super seriously. 125 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:54,000 Yeah, and especially the the cook point of the rice. I think that that's where you because 126 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,560 that's something very hard to learn and to teach. It's just a matter of experience. You 127 00:10:58,560 --> 00:11:04,240 have to cook at least 20 paellas and have tried hundreds of them to know exactly what's 128 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:05,600 right and what's wrong. 129 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:10,040 Yeah, totally. But I mean, like the cooking of the rice itself is also really intricate. 130 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,920 I thought like the first time I saw it, I thought it was super fascinating, especially 131 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:18,480 when people cook it over open fire, which is the traditional way of doing it, you know, 132 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:26,400 and it's high flame a lot of the time. And it's such a simple thing. I mean, really, 133 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,080 you're just cooking rice in a thin layer. But to get the cooking point right, to get 134 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:35,080 it even, you know, sort of like moving the rice from the outside to the center and likewise 135 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:41,560 moving the broth around, you know, like you see chefs like really obsessing over this 136 00:11:41,560 --> 00:11:45,680 paella pan and really caressing it, paying attention to where it bubbles more and where 137 00:11:45,680 --> 00:11:49,940 it bubbles less. I remember one guy, he was like really watching it and then sort of like 138 00:11:49,940 --> 00:11:53,900 taking spoonfuls of broth from one side of the pan and putting them on the other side 139 00:11:53,900 --> 00:12:01,120 of the pan. I mean, like it's really, there's a huge pride, you know, attached to this dish. 140 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:13,720 Yeah. I mean, I would say it's not that complicated. That's why it's so famous. I mean, it's something 141 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:19,600 really easy to make. Of course, to perfection it takes time. But at the end of the day, 142 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,560 you're just putting some vegetables and some pieces of meat and then cooking them in the 143 00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:29,520 same broth with the same rice. If you want to simplify everything. So it's something 144 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:34,760 that really for someone to make at home, if you have everything ready, it would take less 145 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:39,600 than half an hour. Yeah. If you have all the ingredients ready. For restaurant, what I've 146 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:47,040 seen is that they have like this super strong sofritos and you just add like the most fast 147 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:52,000 way to do it is to have a super strong sofrito, super good stock. And you just mix the three 148 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:59,120 ingredients and cook the 20 or so minutes that it takes to be cooked everything. And 149 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:04,120 you can get really good results as long as you pay attention to the cooking point of 150 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,960 the rice. Yeah, absolutely. And if you know your rice and you know, like you figure out 151 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:13,560 the amount of liquids that it's going to need to get you that perfect thing, you don't even 152 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:18,540 need to worry too much about adding stock, checking the rice, et cetera. Once you figure 153 00:13:18,540 --> 00:13:21,720 it out with the type of rice you're using, then that's pretty safe. 154 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,440 What about saffron? Do you like saffron in general? 155 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:30,280 Yeah, I mean, yeah, I do. I mean, like it's I like it where it belongs, you know, I'm 156 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:35,200 not like a huge like it's one of those things kind of like truffle, you know, it's like 157 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:41,240 a little goes a long way. And I especially like those sorts of ideas that I ate as a 158 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:46,080 kid that were just overloaded with fake and cheap saffron powder. And that was like the 159 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:51,680 main carrying flavor. And I think that's horrible. No matter how much aioli you put on it. 160 00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:57,880 It doesn't matter. But yeah, you know, I mean, saffron is a beautiful thing when it's high 161 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:03,640 quality saffron and it's used, you know, sparsely, like it's it gives the thing the character 162 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:05,560 it needs for sure. What about you? 163 00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:12,320 Yeah, I really like saffron. I remember when I was in Mugaritz, that was like in 2005. 164 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:17,160 They did like this presentation at an international conference about saffron. So they had like 165 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:24,520 15 different vacuum bags where they added saffron just to water just to see the the 166 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,520 intensity of the color they generated with the same amount. And this was really interesting 167 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:33,880 because you usually think about saffron, at least in my case, I think about La Mancha. 168 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:40,880 But then I learned that there are very interesting saffrons as well in Iran and Afghanistan and 169 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:47,360 Tasmania, like countries that you wouldn't tell. And as you say, you just have to roast 170 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:53,680 it a little bit at the beginning. And when you add the liquid, it will like absorb all 171 00:14:53,680 --> 00:15:00,160 the the aroma generated. And also the other thing about saffron is that it's if I'm not 172 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:05,520 wrong, the most expensive spice there is. Yeah. Yeah. Along with vanilla. But at the 173 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:11,040 same time, you just need a little bit. So proportionally, it's affordable. It's not 174 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:18,960 I mean, you nobody I've never seen a kilogram of saffron in my life. I just use like milligrams, 175 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,840 I guess. It's definitely affordable, like especially if you're going to use it like 176 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:27,400 a few times, you know, I mean, it seems like a lot if you're like at home just trying to 177 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,800 make one rice and then you're like, oh, shit, I don't have any saffron. I guess I got to 178 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:36,240 buy some and then you buy like a small flask for 30 quid and you're like, well, fuck now 179 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:42,400 suddenly my pay a fortune. But if it's part of your pantry and use it, it's definitely 180 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:47,240 worth it. And it's it's really worth investing in like good quality one also. What do you 181 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:57,880 think about pimiento choricero for the paella? I mean, pimiento choricero, you mean like 182 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:02,120 the paste? I've never used it for paella. I usually use like pimenton, like the powder 183 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:09,480 one and the sweet one. And as I said, I added just before the water, so it roasts a little 184 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:14,020 bit but it doesn't burn. But I've seen pimiento choricero like in sofritos and these kind 185 00:16:14,020 --> 00:16:19,160 of things. I guess you just one or the other. I'm not sure. I'm not such a paella expert 186 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,840 either. Yeah, me neither. I've heard some people like say that it has to be pimiento 187 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:31,280 choricero and other people, you know, like have a completely different opinion. But yeah, 188 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:36,200 it's a good point. It's sort of like I feel like it definitely has a place in the sofrito. 189 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,000 But then again, sort of like, you notice like I've seen also people do two different sofritos, 190 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:47,640 one tomato sofrito and then one vegetable sofrito. Right. So like tomato sofrito usually 191 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:55,080 sort of like poached garlic and then tomato and pimenton cooked down. And then like a 192 00:16:55,080 --> 00:17:00,080 vegetable sofrito that's usually sort of like onion or you know, I saw like the white part 193 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:05,540 of leek a lot also. The same just like cooked down for a really, really, really long time. 194 00:17:05,540 --> 00:17:11,000 And then those two separate then added together with the rice when you sweat the rice. Some 195 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:16,280 of the best results that I saw myself. Yeah, that sounds really good. And it also makes 196 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:22,920 sense to do them separately. Yeah, I especially think about the tomato because it's so liquid. 197 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:32,800 You want to give it its own process until it's really caramelized. Yeah, for sure. 198 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:37,300 That's it for this week's episode of potluck food talks. If you like what we're doing, 199 00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:41,720 make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. You can also find us 200 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:46,360 on Instagram and TikTok as potluck food talks. The show airs every Monday.