Hi everyone, welcome to Potluck Food Talks.
Today we have a special guest, Carlos Hurtado.
He's a gastronomist.
He has worked in different fields and the reason I wanted to talk with him today is
because he actually visited the different plantations of cacao in Venezuela.
And in the line of the last episode we made about chocolate, I think it would be interesting
to talk with him about it.
Hi Carlos, how are you?
Hey, how are you doing?
Very good.
Great.
So could you tell us about your experience in Cacao de Origen or a little bit about
the project and how you got involved?
Sure.
So Cacao de Origen is a project meant to promote both production and consumption of Venezuelan
cocoa and then chocolate in Venezuela.
And so it's been super inspiring because at a time where Venezuela has been known for
oil production and oil sales have not gone as expected, we get into having lots of cocoa
that we are not being able to export and we want local consumption to rise.
And so this is where Maria Fernanda comes in and does this kind of marvelous project
that she's launching.
And I got involved with them because I was doing my final, my thesis degree with the
university and I knew I wanted to go back and work with entrepreneurs and she was already
doing that and I knew very little about cocoa.
I've heard before that Venezuelan cocoa is the best, although I haven't heard it as often
that Venezuelan chocolate is the best.
And so I wanted to wonder why and work with the producers hand in hand to get to know
what's going on there, what the reality is.
And what exactly was your role in this task?
I don't exactly understand.
The project is giving tools to farmers to produce their own chocolate or is it something
else?
Well, yes, essentially Cacao de Origen is teaching people how to produce chocolate out
of cocoa.
They also work to promote specific varieties of cocoa and specific producers that are working
within what we understand as good measures.
And so they already teach to people who want to become chocolate producers the technique
on how to make high quality chocolate.
And so the objective of the project was to complement that with techniques and tools
for these entrepreneurs to better sell the products that they would make.
And so we already knew that they had an excellent base on how to make chocolate and what means
quality in chocolate, but we weren't so sure as to if they were good at selling that chocolate.
And so the idea was that to give them those tools to become better entrepreneurs.
Okay, that's interesting.
And do you have any interesting or memorable moments you would share about your time working
with or interacting with these farmers?
Plenty.
The first one that I always think of whenever thinking about Venezuela is that going to
Cacao de Origen feels like getting into this forbidden land where you're actually getting
like into this whole new country, although it's just a farm, an antique farm.
And so you have this hub for producers, chocolate and farmers who meet there and they are always
in this cooperative mood and they are trying to all help each other out, even though they
are all trying to sell their own product as well.
And so it was very interesting because I got the chance to participate in many tastings
where they would sell the product that they were trying to make.
So they would bring the chocolate that they were making at home and this is the space
for them to sell it.
Basically, it would be like a pitch to investors, but with a product.
Like doing the same methodology you would do for a startup?
It is almost that.
It's just that they are not looking for an investment, but rather getting feedback on
the product itself.
And so the challenge there was that they knew everything they needed to know about chocolate.
It's just that they wanted to sell it to everybody without realizing that maybe that is too broad
of a market and way to open for them to put this niche product.
Keep in mind at the time a bar of chocolate can cost about four to six dollars in a country
where some people live with $50 a month.
So the contrast there was huge.
And so it was all about understanding the market that they had and what they could.
How could they make the most out of the product they were selling?
Okay.
And what would you say was the most challenging and also the most rewarding at your time working
there?
So I got to Venezuela on March 10th of 2020, which is three days before we got in lockdown.
As someone who was trying to go there and teach people this thing about moving very
quickly to Zoom meetings or Google meets in Venezuela would not work as easily, mainly
because you have 82% of the people do not have access to broadband internet.
So even sending a voice note would be complicated enough.
Not even talking about doing a Zoom meeting.
And so the project was to develop the tools for people to learn this.
And so we had to pivot a lot and find out what were the ways we could communicate with
the people over a period of these three or however many months that we didn't know at
the time it was going to last.
And so after we pivoted off, we found out that most people would be able to get telegram
and so we started making slides and sending the class by voice notes.
And that way, even if people were not able to get connected at that specific time, they
were going to be able to listen to the voice notes eventually when they went to the city.
Keep in mind, some of these producers do not even live in cities.
They live in rural areas where they do not get cell connection.
So they do not have internet either.
And that was a way to start promoting.
And so what people were doing with the Zoom meetings where you would get these smaller
groups that they would be speaking, we created groups in Telegram for them to develop business
ideas and do all the full project just through Telegram.
I think the most rewarding thing was just being able to go back and have that experience
with them in person in Caracas, which was the objective in the first place.
And were there any inspiring cases of these farmers that at the end, I don't know, they
ended up making a great chocolate or a great success story with their business or anything?
Yes.
I think this is all about resilience and I think that's the most inspiring thing about
people working and trying to get to a better country in Venezuela.
There's this story in particular that I love, which is this is a family that already had
a production of chocolate and they had a few machines that were Italian and they were starting
to see people wanting to get into the business.
But a machine, even the smallest machine to start producing chocolate would cost them
around 300 euros, 350 euros.
And so you start seeing this family, this Italian family, understand how the machines
work and start producing them themselves.
The machines?
Yeah.
And like, for example, this machine that you use to remove the shell, the shelling machine,
it is very expensive.
And so they managed to make a prototype with a vacuum machine at home and a bucket.
And so they understood what the machine was doing.
And so they started replicating it with common items that people could get.
And so that is how you have the $3,000 shelling machine from Italy.
And then you have a less than $50 machine that you can make at home.
And it empowers people to be able to start their own business.
They no longer have to wait or save enough money just to buy one of the machines that
is just one part of the process.
But instead, they are starting to make a business.
And it is very impactful because you get to see how this impacts the livelihood of these
people immediately.
And so without having to give them anything for free, they just teach them, this is what
the machine is doing.
And so this is what we're trying to replicate.
And these are the elements that we're going to use that you probably already have at home.
And they did a workshop just on that.
And it has eventually evolved into someone already selling those kinds of machines, those
homemade machines.
And so it's very interesting how resourceful we can get whenever we're in crisis.
Yeah, it's interesting how developing countries usually are the ones producing the best cocoa
in the world.
And they export only the cocoa instead of a mint high quality product, which would be
much more profitable for these communities instead of just putting a lot of cocoa on
a sack and sending it abroad.
Yeah, of course.
I mean, even considering that transporting or shipping the end product is even more expensive
and more complicated than shipping the raw material.
Yeah, because the weight is higher and then you're just sending a raw product that is
going to be sold cheaper as well.
Also, and also keep in mind the fact that you have these labor costs that you would
not have in these countries.
I mean, in Europe, labor is going to be much more expensive than what you're going to get
in Venezuela, for example.
And so it is amazing how being able to produce these kinds of high quality chocolates in
Venezuela for cheaper that traditionally we've heard about the Belgian chocolate as one of
the best in the world as well.
Yeah.
When I was talking with Corina, she also told me it's a huge challenge to be sure that you're
getting like 100%, let's say, Chuao variety chocolate because across the value chains
inside the country before it's sent abroad, it's going to get mixed with other varieties
that are cheaper just to make the cheap thing and getting more profit of the same amount
even though it's mixed.
So there are also a lot of challenges when exporting Latin American products, especially
products that are produced in the rainforest where the value chains are complicated and
where it goes through many, many points at the value chain.
So it's like a complicated thing as well.
Yeah.
And now that you mentioned that how mixing of products just to make the end product cheaper,
I was talking to a farmer there and he was saying that he sometimes has to pick cocoa
beans that are not ready yet, but if he were to leave them in the plant, they would get
stolen eventually.
So it meant that either he was picking everything up, even those that were ripe or unripened.
Or he would still lose that product.
So for him, the decision was clear.
He was not going to allow anyone to come and steal that product from him.
So he'd rather just send it with a good product.
And even though that makes a challenge for himself later on in the selling process, but
just a matter of pride, you would not want someone stealing from you, getting this high
quality cocoa and then selling it for free basically, just because they could come in
and steal those products from you.
At the beginning, you mentioned that you've heard a lot of Venezuela has one of the best
cocos in the world.
After your experience being there, what would you say that makes it so special?
What are its features?
And how would you compare it with other cocos with a good reputation, let's say Ecuador
or Mexico?
To me, it was amazing because I didn't know that much about cocoa when going there.
So I was fortunate enough to get a chance to do the training that Cacao de Rigen does
as anyone else who goes there.
And there I was able to taste lots of cocoa, but also as almost like a panelist in the
jury, whenever we had this pitch, I was able to taste lots of chocolates well.
And well, that was the most fun part, of course, because tasting chocolate is always fun.
But it is amazing how everything changes because you have cocoa all over the country and they
are different from each other based on the genetics.
And so you have a very wide range of genetics in all of the cocos, but also the terroir
that where it's grown, it's also having an impact in the end result and the product itself.
For example, one that I love and many people love is chihuahua because it is so characteristic
by having too many aromas and too many different flavor profiles within the same bean.
And so by making the chocolate, you almost get this party going on in your mouth.
And there are layers upon layers upon layers of the chocolate that you get to discover
as you melt the chocolate in your mouth.
And so it would not happen the same way if you take any other cocoa bean from anywhere
else.
And it is one of the reasons why it is the most valued kind of cocoa.
Then you have, if you were to compare it to Ecuador cocoa, one that they make for mass
production, the difference there is they are able to produce lots of fruits and therefore
they can make lots of chocolate with it.
But because they standardize the process and they want to have a standard flavor, they
have to sort of burn some of those qualities that the chocolate has and that you are going
to miss whenever you get the chocolate bar from a mass production.
And so because they do not need that, it is a cocoa that's almost genetically not as rich
and therefore it's not the experience when you have the chocolate made with that cocoa,
it's not as rich either.
And so this is where the flavors change as well.
You have one that tastes like chocolate and it's fine, but then you have this other one
that's very fruity.
You have different moments of, for example, plantain where you have this flavor that depending
on what kind of bean it is, it can feel like a ripe plantain or a green plantain and you
have some stringency there.
And so it is just like a party in your mouth.
It really is life changing almost.
This thing you mentioned about standardizing the process of the chocolate itself, it reminds
me of Mikeller.
You know Mikeller in Denmark?
It's a brewery and they like, yeah, a craft brewery and they coined the term gypsy brewing
because their philosophy is the opposite that you would learn about how to make beer, which
is what you just mentioned, that you want to have the same product every time.
And if it's not the same, even if it's good, you will waste it, throw it away and do it
again until you have the standardized version you want.
Well, Mikeller, they said, let's do exactly the opposite.
Every time we make a beer, it's going to be different.
So every batch, they do something completely different.
And I think why not if it's like a crafting or something made in small communities and
also the harvest itself should be different because whatever the inputs they have, the
climate and everything also has variations.
So why would you force it to be the same thing every time?
It is a shame.
It is a fantastic idea, I mean, but it is a shame that we expect all chocolate to taste
the same, like sugar, milk, and then some cocoa.
And so instead, I just love this concept because at the end of the day, when you have a mandarin,
for example, from a tree and then you grab another one from the tree next to it, so they
are the same genetic load, they have pretty much the same terrarium, but it's just two
different trees, you cannot expect both mandarins to taste exactly the same.
One can be a bit more bitter or a bit more sour.
And so I think that's part of nature by standardizing chocolate, which is just the result of a fruit
or a product.
It's very good for candies, but maybe not for chocolate.
And also, as you mentioned, have you tried this chocolate from Chris's store?
The one that is 70%?
Soco Murcio, I think is the name of the variety.
And we talked about it, that it tastes a little bit like raisin, and that's the reason why
it was usually discarded.
People would take another cocoa bean because it was easier to standardize and the consumer
is not expecting that flavor and all these kind of marketing things that force the production
of things that are beautiful by nature and don't need to be forced.
Completely, yes.
I mean, and it is a shame because it would be considered a defect of the chocolate.
Exactly.
It's a defect in the process.
And what a shame because that is the profile of that specific cocoa bean or the terroir
where it's grown.
Yeah, it's food racism.
Yeah, how could you?
How would you say that the entrepreneurship tools that you use empowered small cocoa farmers
in Venezuela?
And do you think that this would have an impact in the industry as a whole?
I would like to think that it did.
I haven't been able to measure how much impact it has had, but when going there, the first
thing that I wanted to work on was, can we think of cocoa without necessarily thinking
that you have to make chocolate with it?
And so the idea was, or at least my personal objective was, to give them enough creativity
tools so that they could start thinking about products that they could make with cocoa that
would not necessarily lead to chocolate.
So maybe a kombucha using the caffeine that's present in the cocoa beans or doing soap,
for example, with fats, depending on what they have.
And from there, you get these projects that are interesting.
And this business, this entrepreneur thought of, well, I will not make chocolate, but instead
I will give all of the resources and rent them for those people who do not have the
money to buy these entire set up and make chocolate.
So basically an impact hub, but for cocoa chocolate producers.
It's a super smart business idea, I think.
Yeah, especially in a country where the investment to start doing this would be about a thousand
dollars and not everybody has a thousand dollars.
And so this is amazing because if you can rent the room for, I don't know, whatever
that batch costs you, it's fantastic.
Then you have this other group that started working on tree to bar instead of bean to
bar.
Essentially they already had the production of cocoa and they started making chocolate
as well.
So they take bean to bar one step further and they not only do the chocolate, but they
also cultivate the fruit.
And so the traceability is just full.
You have the product since you plant it all the way to the customer and you manage everything.
And so because they were such a robust company now, they were able to start working on tourism
as well.
So they not only had the chocolate production, but they also had dinners.
So they would have people come into the farm and they would explain everything to them
while doing tastings.
So it is interesting and I think it is amazing to be able to expand the market so much so
that you're not only thinking of the product, but also many things that you can do outside
of the product itself.
It would be like breweries now that allow you to go to the brewery and you get to visit
the brewery and you get to see what the process is.
Same thing, but with cocoa as well.
That's amazing.
That's it for this week's episode of potluck food talks.
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