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Hi everyone, welcome to Potluck Food Talks.

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Today we have a special guest, Carlos Hurtado.

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He's a gastronomist.

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He has worked in different fields and the reason I wanted to talk with him today is

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because he actually visited the different plantations of cacao in Venezuela.

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And in the line of the last episode we made about chocolate, I think it would be interesting

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to talk with him about it.

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Hi Carlos, how are you?

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Hey, how are you doing?

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Very good.

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Great.

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So could you tell us about your experience in Cacao de Origen or a little bit about

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the project and how you got involved?

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Sure.

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So Cacao de Origen is a project meant to promote both production and consumption of Venezuelan

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cocoa and then chocolate in Venezuela.

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And so it's been super inspiring because at a time where Venezuela has been known for

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oil production and oil sales have not gone as expected, we get into having lots of cocoa

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that we are not being able to export and we want local consumption to rise.

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And so this is where Maria Fernanda comes in and does this kind of marvelous project

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that she's launching.

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And I got involved with them because I was doing my final, my thesis degree with the

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university and I knew I wanted to go back and work with entrepreneurs and she was already

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doing that and I knew very little about cocoa.

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I've heard before that Venezuelan cocoa is the best, although I haven't heard it as often

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that Venezuelan chocolate is the best.

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And so I wanted to wonder why and work with the producers hand in hand to get to know

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what's going on there, what the reality is.

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And what exactly was your role in this task?

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I don't exactly understand.

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The project is giving tools to farmers to produce their own chocolate or is it something

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else?

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Well, yes, essentially Cacao de Origen is teaching people how to produce chocolate out

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of cocoa.

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They also work to promote specific varieties of cocoa and specific producers that are working

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within what we understand as good measures.

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And so they already teach to people who want to become chocolate producers the technique

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on how to make high quality chocolate.

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And so the objective of the project was to complement that with techniques and tools

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for these entrepreneurs to better sell the products that they would make.

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And so we already knew that they had an excellent base on how to make chocolate and what means

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quality in chocolate, but we weren't so sure as to if they were good at selling that chocolate.

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And so the idea was that to give them those tools to become better entrepreneurs.

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Okay, that's interesting.

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And do you have any interesting or memorable moments you would share about your time working

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with or interacting with these farmers?

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Plenty.

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The first one that I always think of whenever thinking about Venezuela is that going to

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Cacao de Origen feels like getting into this forbidden land where you're actually getting

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like into this whole new country, although it's just a farm, an antique farm.

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And so you have this hub for producers, chocolate and farmers who meet there and they are always

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in this cooperative mood and they are trying to all help each other out, even though they

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are all trying to sell their own product as well.

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And so it was very interesting because I got the chance to participate in many tastings

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where they would sell the product that they were trying to make.

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So they would bring the chocolate that they were making at home and this is the space

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for them to sell it.

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Basically, it would be like a pitch to investors, but with a product.

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Like doing the same methodology you would do for a startup?

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It is almost that.

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It's just that they are not looking for an investment, but rather getting feedback on

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the product itself.

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And so the challenge there was that they knew everything they needed to know about chocolate.

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It's just that they wanted to sell it to everybody without realizing that maybe that is too broad

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of a market and way to open for them to put this niche product.

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Keep in mind at the time a bar of chocolate can cost about four to six dollars in a country

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where some people live with $50 a month.

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So the contrast there was huge.

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And so it was all about understanding the market that they had and what they could.

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How could they make the most out of the product they were selling?

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Okay.

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And what would you say was the most challenging and also the most rewarding at your time working

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there?

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So I got to Venezuela on March 10th of 2020, which is three days before we got in lockdown.

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As someone who was trying to go there and teach people this thing about moving very

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quickly to Zoom meetings or Google meets in Venezuela would not work as easily, mainly

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because you have 82% of the people do not have access to broadband internet.

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So even sending a voice note would be complicated enough.

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Not even talking about doing a Zoom meeting.

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And so the project was to develop the tools for people to learn this.

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And so we had to pivot a lot and find out what were the ways we could communicate with

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the people over a period of these three or however many months that we didn't know at

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the time it was going to last.

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And so after we pivoted off, we found out that most people would be able to get telegram

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and so we started making slides and sending the class by voice notes.

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And that way, even if people were not able to get connected at that specific time, they

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were going to be able to listen to the voice notes eventually when they went to the city.

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Keep in mind, some of these producers do not even live in cities.

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They live in rural areas where they do not get cell connection.

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So they do not have internet either.

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And that was a way to start promoting.

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And so what people were doing with the Zoom meetings where you would get these smaller

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groups that they would be speaking, we created groups in Telegram for them to develop business

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ideas and do all the full project just through Telegram.

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I think the most rewarding thing was just being able to go back and have that experience

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with them in person in Caracas, which was the objective in the first place.

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And were there any inspiring cases of these farmers that at the end, I don't know, they

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ended up making a great chocolate or a great success story with their business or anything?

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Yes.

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I think this is all about resilience and I think that's the most inspiring thing about

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people working and trying to get to a better country in Venezuela.

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There's this story in particular that I love, which is this is a family that already had

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a production of chocolate and they had a few machines that were Italian and they were starting

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to see people wanting to get into the business.

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But a machine, even the smallest machine to start producing chocolate would cost them

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around 300 euros, 350 euros.

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And so you start seeing this family, this Italian family, understand how the machines

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work and start producing them themselves.

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The machines?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And like, for example, this machine that you use to remove the shell, the shelling machine,

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it is very expensive.

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And so they managed to make a prototype with a vacuum machine at home and a bucket.

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And so they understood what the machine was doing.

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And so they started replicating it with common items that people could get.

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And so that is how you have the $3,000 shelling machine from Italy.

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And then you have a less than $50 machine that you can make at home.

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And it empowers people to be able to start their own business.

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They no longer have to wait or save enough money just to buy one of the machines that

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is just one part of the process.

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But instead, they are starting to make a business.

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And it is very impactful because you get to see how this impacts the livelihood of these

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people immediately.

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And so without having to give them anything for free, they just teach them, this is what

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the machine is doing.

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And so this is what we're trying to replicate.

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And these are the elements that we're going to use that you probably already have at home.

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And they did a workshop just on that.

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And it has eventually evolved into someone already selling those kinds of machines, those

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homemade machines.

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And so it's very interesting how resourceful we can get whenever we're in crisis.

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Yeah, it's interesting how developing countries usually are the ones producing the best cocoa

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in the world.

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And they export only the cocoa instead of a mint high quality product, which would be

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much more profitable for these communities instead of just putting a lot of cocoa on

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a sack and sending it abroad.

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Yeah, of course.

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I mean, even considering that transporting or shipping the end product is even more expensive

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and more complicated than shipping the raw material.

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Yeah, because the weight is higher and then you're just sending a raw product that is

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going to be sold cheaper as well.

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Also, and also keep in mind the fact that you have these labor costs that you would

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not have in these countries.

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I mean, in Europe, labor is going to be much more expensive than what you're going to get

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in Venezuela, for example.

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And so it is amazing how being able to produce these kinds of high quality chocolates in

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Venezuela for cheaper that traditionally we've heard about the Belgian chocolate as one of

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the best in the world as well.

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Yeah.

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When I was talking with Corina, she also told me it's a huge challenge to be sure that you're

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getting like 100%, let's say, Chuao variety chocolate because across the value chains

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inside the country before it's sent abroad, it's going to get mixed with other varieties

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that are cheaper just to make the cheap thing and getting more profit of the same amount

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even though it's mixed.

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So there are also a lot of challenges when exporting Latin American products, especially

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products that are produced in the rainforest where the value chains are complicated and

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where it goes through many, many points at the value chain.

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So it's like a complicated thing as well.

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Yeah.

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And now that you mentioned that how mixing of products just to make the end product cheaper,

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I was talking to a farmer there and he was saying that he sometimes has to pick cocoa

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beans that are not ready yet, but if he were to leave them in the plant, they would get

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stolen eventually.

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So it meant that either he was picking everything up, even those that were ripe or unripened.

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Or he would still lose that product.

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So for him, the decision was clear.

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He was not going to allow anyone to come and steal that product from him.

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So he'd rather just send it with a good product.

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And even though that makes a challenge for himself later on in the selling process, but

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just a matter of pride, you would not want someone stealing from you, getting this high

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quality cocoa and then selling it for free basically, just because they could come in

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and steal those products from you.

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At the beginning, you mentioned that you've heard a lot of Venezuela has one of the best

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cocos in the world.

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After your experience being there, what would you say that makes it so special?

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What are its features?

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And how would you compare it with other cocos with a good reputation, let's say Ecuador

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or Mexico?

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To me, it was amazing because I didn't know that much about cocoa when going there.

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So I was fortunate enough to get a chance to do the training that Cacao de Rigen does

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as anyone else who goes there.

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And there I was able to taste lots of cocoa, but also as almost like a panelist in the

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jury, whenever we had this pitch, I was able to taste lots of chocolates well.

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And well, that was the most fun part, of course, because tasting chocolate is always fun.

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But it is amazing how everything changes because you have cocoa all over the country and they

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are different from each other based on the genetics.

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And so you have a very wide range of genetics in all of the cocos, but also the terroir

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that where it's grown, it's also having an impact in the end result and the product itself.

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For example, one that I love and many people love is chihuahua because it is so characteristic

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by having too many aromas and too many different flavor profiles within the same bean.

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And so by making the chocolate, you almost get this party going on in your mouth.

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And there are layers upon layers upon layers of the chocolate that you get to discover

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as you melt the chocolate in your mouth.

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And so it would not happen the same way if you take any other cocoa bean from anywhere

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else.

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And it is one of the reasons why it is the most valued kind of cocoa.

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Then you have, if you were to compare it to Ecuador cocoa, one that they make for mass

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production, the difference there is they are able to produce lots of fruits and therefore

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they can make lots of chocolate with it.

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But because they standardize the process and they want to have a standard flavor, they

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have to sort of burn some of those qualities that the chocolate has and that you are going

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to miss whenever you get the chocolate bar from a mass production.

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And so because they do not need that, it is a cocoa that's almost genetically not as rich

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and therefore it's not the experience when you have the chocolate made with that cocoa,

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it's not as rich either.

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And so this is where the flavors change as well.

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You have one that tastes like chocolate and it's fine, but then you have this other one

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that's very fruity.

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You have different moments of, for example, plantain where you have this flavor that depending

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on what kind of bean it is, it can feel like a ripe plantain or a green plantain and you

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have some stringency there.

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And so it is just like a party in your mouth.

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It really is life changing almost.

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This thing you mentioned about standardizing the process of the chocolate itself, it reminds

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me of Mikeller.

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You know Mikeller in Denmark?

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It's a brewery and they like, yeah, a craft brewery and they coined the term gypsy brewing

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because their philosophy is the opposite that you would learn about how to make beer, which

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is what you just mentioned, that you want to have the same product every time.

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And if it's not the same, even if it's good, you will waste it, throw it away and do it

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again until you have the standardized version you want.

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Well, Mikeller, they said, let's do exactly the opposite.

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Every time we make a beer, it's going to be different.

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So every batch, they do something completely different.

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And I think why not if it's like a crafting or something made in small communities and

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also the harvest itself should be different because whatever the inputs they have, the

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climate and everything also has variations.

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So why would you force it to be the same thing every time?

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It is a shame.

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It is a fantastic idea, I mean, but it is a shame that we expect all chocolate to taste

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the same, like sugar, milk, and then some cocoa.

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And so instead, I just love this concept because at the end of the day, when you have a mandarin,

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for example, from a tree and then you grab another one from the tree next to it, so they

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are the same genetic load, they have pretty much the same terrarium, but it's just two

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different trees, you cannot expect both mandarins to taste exactly the same.

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One can be a bit more bitter or a bit more sour.

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And so I think that's part of nature by standardizing chocolate, which is just the result of a fruit

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or a product.

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It's very good for candies, but maybe not for chocolate.

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And also, as you mentioned, have you tried this chocolate from Chris's store?

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The one that is 70%?

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Soco Murcio, I think is the name of the variety.

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And we talked about it, that it tastes a little bit like raisin, and that's the reason why

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it was usually discarded.

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People would take another cocoa bean because it was easier to standardize and the consumer

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is not expecting that flavor and all these kind of marketing things that force the production

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of things that are beautiful by nature and don't need to be forced.

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Completely, yes.

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I mean, and it is a shame because it would be considered a defect of the chocolate.

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Exactly.

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It's a defect in the process.

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And what a shame because that is the profile of that specific cocoa bean or the terroir

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where it's grown.

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Yeah, it's food racism.

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Yeah, how could you?

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How would you say that the entrepreneurship tools that you use empowered small cocoa farmers

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in Venezuela?

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And do you think that this would have an impact in the industry as a whole?

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I would like to think that it did.

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I haven't been able to measure how much impact it has had, but when going there, the first

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thing that I wanted to work on was, can we think of cocoa without necessarily thinking

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that you have to make chocolate with it?

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And so the idea was, or at least my personal objective was, to give them enough creativity

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tools so that they could start thinking about products that they could make with cocoa that

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would not necessarily lead to chocolate.

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So maybe a kombucha using the caffeine that's present in the cocoa beans or doing soap,

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for example, with fats, depending on what they have.

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And from there, you get these projects that are interesting.

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And this business, this entrepreneur thought of, well, I will not make chocolate, but instead

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I will give all of the resources and rent them for those people who do not have the

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money to buy these entire set up and make chocolate.

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So basically an impact hub, but for cocoa chocolate producers.

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It's a super smart business idea, I think.

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Yeah, especially in a country where the investment to start doing this would be about a thousand

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dollars and not everybody has a thousand dollars.

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And so this is amazing because if you can rent the room for, I don't know, whatever

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that batch costs you, it's fantastic.

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Then you have this other group that started working on tree to bar instead of bean to

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bar.

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Essentially they already had the production of cocoa and they started making chocolate

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as well.

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So they take bean to bar one step further and they not only do the chocolate, but they

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also cultivate the fruit.

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And so the traceability is just full.

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You have the product since you plant it all the way to the customer and you manage everything.

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And so because they were such a robust company now, they were able to start working on tourism

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as well.

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So they not only had the chocolate production, but they also had dinners.

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So they would have people come into the farm and they would explain everything to them

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while doing tastings.

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So it is interesting and I think it is amazing to be able to expand the market so much so

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that you're not only thinking of the product, but also many things that you can do outside

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of the product itself.

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It would be like breweries now that allow you to go to the brewery and you get to visit

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the brewery and you get to see what the process is.

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Same thing, but with cocoa as well.

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That's amazing.

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That's it for this week's episode of potluck food talks.

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