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Hi everyone, welcome to Potluck Food Talks. Today we have a new guest, Corina Jimenez.

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She's a chocolate craft maker in Saanen in South Norway with her project called Choco.

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She only works with Venezuelan cacao beans. Hi Corina, how are you?

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Thank you for having me, Eric.

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What about your project? So you make chocolate in Norway with Venezuelan cacao beans. I've

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seen that you have won a few prizes as well. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

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So well, how I started making chocolate here is Northern Europe generally, they love milk

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chocolate, right? So they're not really big fan of dark chocolate, although that has changed

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in the last year, especially with the trend of being a healthier minder and the vegan

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movement also, or the people that wants to stay away from dairy for some reason. So dark

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chocolate has gained a little bit more traction in the last years, but to me what it meant

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is I've been living in this country for 12 years and as a professional, I was missing

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the Venezuelan flavors because as we mentioned before, I learned the Venezuelan cacao taste

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through El Rey, right? And El Rey is a brand that was already talking about percentage.

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It was talking about the different variations of cacao butter content in the bars and how

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this will affect the end flavor. And also they will have different varieties to work with.

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So as a pastry chef in Venezuela, I would think of a couverture made by El Rey and how

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it will affect the flavor of the dessert I wanted to develop. So when I moved back,

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when I moved here, sorry, when I moved here to Norway, and as a pastry chef, as a professional,

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there's only two brands that professionals could go to. And they had a Venezuelan presence in it,

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but it was a blend. So the flavors I'm used to, like the caranero beans that I know really well,

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for instance, I was missing that. And to me, caranero, it can be very nutty and also very

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cinnamon or nutmeg. And it has this nutty, spicy flavors to it that I was really missing, for

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instance. So I thought, okay, why not? Let's start with making my own chocolate because I miss it.

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So it was really for selfish reasons. But then again, I'm living in Norway in the,

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it's in a very exciting region, which is the area where we grow most of the foods around the country.

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So here we have amazing raw products that work with like strawberries, like apples, like,

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you know, the berries in Scandinavia, they all grow here. So I started like, okay, now I have

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to put this on chocolate because this is amazing. And even there's a very cool halftone in English,

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and it looks, it's very orange, it's a bright orange berry. And the flavor is very similar to

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passion fruit. So I call it the Nordic passion fruit. And most people also call it like that,

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because it is very similar. So, but most Norwegians are so used to the passion fruit

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that they have forgotten that they have this local delicacy. And you will find them in restaurants

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like Noma or the big gastronomic restaurants that they use it, but not so much in chocolate. So

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when I put this in chocolate, and I said to the Norwegians, this is your berry called, you know,

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sin bet. And they're like, what? Really? Is that ours? So for me, it's a great way to make the

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bridge between both cultures where I come from and where I'm living now. So most of my bars are,

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they have that concept. So the bar that won my first award was back in 2017. And it was in the

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chocolate awards, and it was in the Scandinavian round. And I made it with uniper berries.

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And blueberries, I still is one of, I have many customers that I love that bar. So if you remember,

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uniper berries is what gives the flavors to gin. And here is also used in the local cuisine when

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they make...

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A game, right?

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A game, exactly. Thank you for helping. But it has this citrusy gin like flavor. And I do have many customers

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that enjoy gin. And they ask me normally, like, did you actually put gin on the bar? And I'm like,

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no, it's just a gin uniper berry that doesn't work. So that was the inspiration that were,

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you know, this is a berry that I found here and I just put it in chocolate because I thought it

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wouldn't go well. And another bar that is my, I would say my best seller is the chili bar.

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It's a spicy bar, but it's with chili that is grown here in Norway. Norwegians love chili. I

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mean, they grow many varieties, but the one I buy is the jalapeno, fresh. And it's just so plumpy

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and red. And it's just, when it's so fresh, it has, you can really see the pepper, like the

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capsicum, the sweet. But then when I dehydrate it and I turn it to powder, I have to wear a mask

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because it's so, like, it's so strong when you inhale it.

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Yeah, it works with chili. You need to use gloves and cover your mouth.

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But it's just a bright orange, you know, when I'm making it, it's just like, I really enjoy so much

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the process of making it, that bar. So that's one of my best selling bars. I have others that,

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I'm always trying to, you know, to add the local flavors and things. I use Norwegian sea salt

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also to add to it.

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Oh, I love chocolate with salt.

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Yeah. But all my recipes have a pinch of salt and pepper just because I also work a lot in the

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kitchen world. And I think that's a great balance to have always. So they always have a proportion

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of a little bit of sea salt and pepper, black pepper to it. But here we have amazing local

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products that I am just so happy to experiment in chocolate. And chocolate is just a great medium

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because not only for the sweet side, but for the savory side. And, you know, in the old times it

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was even used as medicine. So the limit is yours, how you want to project on chocolate.

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Well, I could eat chocolate every day. There's no doubt about it. Are you working only with

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Norwegian or Nordic countries' market? Or is it possible?

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Yeah, I'm very local. I'm not even selling in the whole country. Like, that's my next step,

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because I have many customers that they have moved out or they are like they get they come here for

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some reason, because I'm always well before the pandemic, I was always in the markets. And

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so they go to see my brand and I have many customers I really want to get my bars. But

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for me, it has been one step at a time. And so my next step is the online sales.

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But definitely starting in Norway, exports also in Norway, as you can imagine,

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is not that straightforward and there's many things to consider. But right now I'm a very local

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baker. But I'm really happy to be part of the local food scene, because here we have amazing

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brewers, coffee roasters, cheese makers, bakers.

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Cristina told me she happened to try one of your chocolates in a beer in a brewery.

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Yes. And it was like a chocolate with beer, right? Yeah, this is a stout style beer that is made here

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by Lervik. It's also a well-known Norwegian beer in the craft beer environment. They have this

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amazing stout style that they infuse with vanilla, cacao and tonka beads. So the beer in itself is

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already like a delicious dessert. Yeah, I've had this kind of beers and they work really well. And

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as you say, you can pair a dessert with that and it's amazing. Sure. So I decided, okay, I'm going

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to infuse cacao with some chocolate out of it. And they loved it. And we had this amazing

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collaboration between the two brands. And it's been also great to get to talk to them and jam

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ideas with them because they are craft makers. They're also passionate about their raw products,

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about customers. They have this great philosophy of labels that are so original and out there.

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Flavors also, they are like making amazing flavor beers all the time. So collaborations are a great

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way to grow as a professional and get connections locally. It's very nice. And the chocolate you

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made, it also had beer or it just went with the beer? I do take their beer and I infuse it for a

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month. Yeah, because there's ways other chocolate makers, they will have the beans in the barrels

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and infuse by just the smell, like getting the aromatics to it. But to me as a chef also,

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I do have that. I like the flavors to feel strong, like they really hit you. So when I say chili bar

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is chili. When I say chili bar is chili, you feel the flavor. So for me, the challenge of the beer

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was like, I want people to bite into the bar and feel that they're drinking the beer. So I infuse

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it with their actual beer. So yeah, I was happy with the result. And the stout anyway, they do

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have this chocolate texture and flavor to it. So it's kind of like a match made in heaven basically.

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So it is a nice product to work with. I do infuse also with rum. I have one with rum that I do with

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Santa Teresa also. And I had it with candied orange skin. That is also popular among the people.

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Then when you start creating crazy things, then you get the different crowds that are drawn to

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those flavors. So that bar attracts the crowd that is into whiskey or cognac. So then they

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enjoy that one. Pairing also this kind of spirit drinks with chocolate is amazing. Like a good

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whiskey with chocolate or a good rum. Wow. Yeah. I do also a big part of my business is to do

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chocolate tasting because I am the first chocolate maker in the region. And people, like I said,

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people were used to the supermarket chocolate. So I had to explain what is craft chocolate. And

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chocolate tastings have been a great window to do that. And I am a very social person. I enjoy

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talking as you can see. So for me it's a great opportunity to pair chocolate with something

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that people enjoy already. So I have made, you name it, I have made coffee and chocolate pairings.

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I have made beer and chocolate pairings, whiskey and rum, obviously with Diplomatica.

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That was a big success that tasting some years ago. I do all the tastings just to show people

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that chocolate pairs well with almost everything. One crowd was really pleased when I did the cheese

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and beer tasting. They didn't expect that one. Chocolate and cheese go super well. I remember

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trying a dessert that was a light blue cheese with chocolate. And you couldn't feel the funkiness of

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the blue cheese because at the end of the day you just had the dairy and a very strong flavor that

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went really complimentary to the cacao flavor. So again, we have a cheese maker here that she is

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amazing. She's a lady, a Norwegian girl that she has also award-winning cheese. I use her blue cheese

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and it's just the creaminess, the saltiness. And then you get the funkiness from the fermentation

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and the fungus in the cheese that goes well with the couverture. I think it goes best with.

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And it's just another level of craziness. And then it goes on the saltier area, but somehow

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also it awakens all the flavors within the chocolate that you didn't think were there.

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Pairings are fun and it's definitely a way to just enjoy chocolate in a new dimension.

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This is relatively like a new thing. I remember when I lived in Venezuela about 17 years ago,

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I left, nobody was talking about bean to bar. Also not like in the gastronomy world.

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I think that this movement boosted perhaps a few years later, perhaps in the beginning of the

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2010s. Is that possible?

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Yeah. The first time I actually encountered the concept of bean to bar, even though it

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wasn't that name, it was around 2005 when I visited for the first time or I visited a

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micro chocolate workshop, which is what Cacao Virongo for the Virongo. And that didn't have

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that name, bean to bar, because we're talking about 2005, but that is what it was. So this

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Empresa Escolar, the private initiative of them to empower the local cow producing women of Virongo

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in Barlovento.

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Virongo is the village or the region?

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It's a village within Barlovento. So Barlovento, many small villages and then Virongo is one of

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them. And it has a big Cacao tradition as well, Barlovento also. And then they, Empresas Escolar,

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what they did was they were empowering the local women that were producing Cacao. So they provided

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them a proper place to do their chocolate. And also they provided a chocolatier from Switzerland

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to support them with the recipes development and everything. So this factory was tiny,

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but it had everything. So they had, they would come with the Cacao dried and the first thing

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you would encounter was the roasting process. And then there will be the shelling process,

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the winnowing. And then you will see everything right until the bar. So, and then in the end,

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you will meet the ladies that were packing the final product and you will leave with your,

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already with your ready wrapped bar. So that was right there, but it didn't have that name.

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So Venezuela has been pioneering right from the beginning, but it's just been

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very modest about it sometimes, I have to say.

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So what can you tell us about making Kraft chocolate in Norway with Venezuelan cocoa beans?

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How is the whole process of importing the cocoa beans? I mean, there is a lot of things that has

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to happen in the process. Yeah, definitely. Well, to start with, I am what is called actually a

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nano batch maker. So I work with microlops. So I don't buy by the tons yet. Hopefully,

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eventually that will be the case. But so that being said, I need an intermediary to help me.

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And I do work with a person in Amsterdam that is also Venezuelan. And she used to work also in the

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chocolate industry back home. So to me, it was the perfect link is called Gaia Cacao. And they

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provide me with all the info from the farms and the beans that I need. So basically she or they

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are the only link between me and the farmer in Venezuela. And what means for me is as a

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small maker, then they do all the process of the import to Europe. And then for me, it's much easier

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just to transfer from the Netherlands to Norway, because Norway also has another issue that

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everything is far from here. Even if you're shopping online from other big browsers, then

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it's always like, yeah, we ship everywhere, except Norway. So it's always the shipping is always an

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issue in any branch. So I'm really happy to have to be able to work with this company in the

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Netherlands. Of course, I come from Venezuela, same as you. And I know the importance that

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the Venezuelan cacao has worldwide. You will see it in the biggest brands. You will see Venezuelan

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varieties and everybody talks about Venezuela cacao beans. So what can you tell us about that,

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about the quality of the cacao, about the reputation it has, about the varieties?

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Well, you know, we could be here all night talking about this. It's a tradition that goes right for

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100 years back. So it's a lot to say, but definitely it is a reputation well deserved. Most

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brands, European brands will brag and be proud to show in their packaging Venezuela as an origin

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among their cacao collection, let's say it. It was well established with the

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compañía Wepuscuana. That was the purpose of that before the oil bonanza in Venezuela. That was only

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to trade cacao and coffee. And from that time, all the reputation has been crazy. It was, I guess,

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the first origin that was differentiated from the bulk cacao. So it allowed us to be tasted with

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traceability, I would say. So that made it possible for instead of trying blends and just have a bland

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taste of chocolate, it made it possible for people to try a cacao that was coming from a certain

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place. Originally, if you look back in the old books, it will refer to Puerto Cabello from Venezuela

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because they will give the name of the place that we're shipping from. Basically, not necessarily

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the name of the actual farm. So you will see in the old books that they will refer to Puerto

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Cabello cacao and that will be, you know, the Venezuelan origin. So that opened the door for

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us, for people, as I said, to taste traceability as we refer to it today. So that built our reputation

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based on, you know, the good flavor and the difference of that flavor compared to the bulk

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cacao. So that's what happens also when people today start tasting Kraft chocolate and compare

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it to, let's call it, supermarket chocolate. That is the first thing that hooks us into this world,

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is the flavor, is when you experience that in your palate, that you feel all this journey of

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sensations and things that you haven't tasted in chocolate before. And that's where, you know,

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the most sweet of the addictions starts, I would say.

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Yeah, it's a dark addiction. I also mentioned in the chocolate episode we did before, as a young

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chef, I very shortly made an internship in Cacao, which was Maria Fernanda de Jacob's chocolate shop.

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And we only work with Chocolatos del Rey, so I'm quite familiar with those chocolates.

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I wanted to ask you, do you know about the, perhaps you know this better than I do,

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about the influence of Maria Fernanda, what she did in the chocolate scene in Venezuela?

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Sure, sure. I mean, we have so much to thank her. She was caught in this storm, I would say,

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of the political situation that Venezuela was going through in the 2010s, where, you know,

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we have this amazing cacao history that, you know, with the years as we became this oil

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country, we kind of dropped to the side. And basically our cacao mostly was being sold,

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even though it was quantity, to the big industry, to the bigger producers as mass

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cacao produced. And when the crisis hit, the exports were the ones that were affected,

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the big companies that were foreign companies, they left. So suddenly all these, well,

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the oil industry was struggling big time and all the cacao was stocked in the country. It couldn't

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leave because, you know, the traders couldn't get it out. And it was all this chaos. So

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this cacao was basically... Rottening.

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And then what she did is she embraced that under the crisis and said, look, we are stuck in this

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country with the best cacao that we can ever dream of. Let's transform it and make it ourselves,

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instead of, you know, selling everything outside or relying on bigger industries. Well, wait,

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let's empower the smaller nanobatch producers. And that's what she did. So she started visiting

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small producers and teaching them, okay, instead of selling your cacao to the bulk cacao,

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why don't you process it this way? Then you have a quality cacao that you can sell,

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you know, to smaller makers that will pay you more, you know. And then she started, you know,

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spreading the word around the country, inspiring people to become better farmers, inspiring

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students to become chocolate makers. And then she basically created the local market where

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Venezuelans will fall in love with their own local product. And in that sense, she created a local

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pride. She brought the pride again of being a cacao country and not only to sell, but also to

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consume. Like Venezuelans are actually big time eaters of chocolate. So that makes me really proud

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too. And it makes me really happy because then you see wonderful people like Herencia Divina,

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another local brand that are right now, they just came through my mind. But Herencia Divina,

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for example, with Miguel Acho, how we call him, is doing a great job. He recently got awarded by the

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Chocowords. And it's just so nice because he also works with cacao from Valle de Cata. And then you

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see these local connections that they start to make. And then suddenly, you know, this amazing

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exotic cacao that people thought was lost, suddenly appears and you're like, wow, in that place,

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there's cacao too. Wow, let's go and try. I want to try a bar made with that. And it has become of

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these also sommeliers, let's call it, on cacao in Venezuela. They have developed their own taste

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wheel. Oh, that's amazing. Like specific to Venezuelan cocoa beans. Yeah. So we are developing

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our own tasting wheels based on how our cacao tastes like. And it's just amazing. For those who

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don't know, a taste wheel is something you usually use like in the wine tasting world. Well, you have

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like the equivalent to a color spectrum, but every single color has a note. So it could be something

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that you could refer as an aroma. Perhaps it will be lime or berry or tobacco or leather or these

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kinds of things. Exactly. Which is a tool that can be very useful for a chocolate maker that has never

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worked with that origin before. It's a guide. It's not also, it's not a square, right? So it's just

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a guide of the possibilities of this cacao in your hands. So that's what a taste wheel means for me,

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because there's like the roasting and the processing will affect the final flavor too.

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But what a taste wheel will tell me about, you know, caranero cacao or about sur del lago cacao,

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which depends on if it's Guasare or what type it is in sur del lago. It will tell me just the

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possibilities that I could reach if I work with this type of cacao. It is amazing because it's

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at least something that you are aiming towards as a chocolate maker. And that is a potential

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also that you want to understand when you buy the cacao. That is amazing that in the technical data

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that I described your beans, it also can go as far as to give you some sort of sensorial tasting

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idea of what you're buying. And I think that's a great standard for Venezuelan cacao to establish.

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So, and going to the varieties, as a kid, I remember going to the beaches in Aragua,

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and I would see the farmers drying the cocoa beans on the sun. And one of those beaches is Chuao,

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which is at the same time one of the best reputed varieties from Venezuelan cacao.

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So, can you tell us anything about that, about Chuao cacao beans?

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Sure. I mean, I think that's a journey that I hope everyone related in the chocolate industry

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can do. Like take a trip to Chuao and get to know the people. The journey itself is magical

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because you have to go through this jungle. Just go from the city and then go through the mountain,

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which is the rainforest. Yes, thank you. The rainforest. You can see monkeys, you can see

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birds, you know, it's a very nice area also for birds watching. So eventually you get to this

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beautiful sandy place, opens up suddenly from all this greenery in front of your eyes. So it's quite,

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even the journey itself is quite magical. That Chuao, you can just get there only by boat.

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And so that makes it super special. Basically the whole place is the hacienda, right? So the

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people live actually in the hacienda because when you start walking from the beach right to the

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center of the town or the village, you are already working through the plantation. And then you see

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all the trees that cover and gives protection to the cacao trees. And then you find mango trees,

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you have apamates, you have banana trees, you have, you know, all these

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amazing variety of biodiversity growing around and all the nature that goes to it. And then you're

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just walking through that right away. You will see, you will start spotting the cacao trees from,

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yeah, from where I asked you to walk along. Eventually you get to the center and then,

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you know, you see just the people living there that happen also to work there. And then you see

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the families, the kids, the women, the men, everyone. It's a way for you to open your eyes

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and understanding that cacao is not only a commodity or a fruit, but it's also a way of living.

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We're talking about communities that are affected directly by it and for it. So I think that is,

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sometimes when we are in Europe, we disconnect so much from that. And it's so important because

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that's the difference we are trying to make. What draws me to the craft chocolate world

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is the possibility to make a difference for the farmers and for the crops that we try to support

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the correct cacao farming that is biodiverse, that will give us in exchange the seeds that taste

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amazing, that we can make amazing chocolate with it, that also in turn only makes us happy,

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but also is good for our bodies, for our children, for the economy. So to me, craft chocolate makers,

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we are trying to catch up with what the specialty coffee makers are doing or the brewers, the beer

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brewers are doing also now for some years. And so we are a bit late in the craft movement making,

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but at the same time we are making such a big difference. So it's so nice to be part of this

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movement.

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That's it for this week's episode of Potluck Food Talks. Thank you for watching.

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Thank you Corina Jiménez for joining the show. You can check out her stuff on shoco.no.

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That's shoco with X-O-C-O dot N-O. And if you like what we're doing, make sure to subscribe

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to the podcast so you never miss an episode. You can also find us on Instagram and TikTok

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as Potluck Food Talks. The show airs every Monday.