Hi everyone, welcome to Potluck Food Talks. Today we have a new guest, Corina Jimenez.
She's a chocolate craft maker in Saanen in South Norway with her project called Choco.
She only works with Venezuelan cacao beans. Hi Corina, how are you?
Thank you for having me, Eric.
What about your project? So you make chocolate in Norway with Venezuelan cacao beans. I've
seen that you have won a few prizes as well. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
So well, how I started making chocolate here is Northern Europe generally, they love milk
chocolate, right? So they're not really big fan of dark chocolate, although that has changed
in the last year, especially with the trend of being a healthier minder and the vegan
movement also, or the people that wants to stay away from dairy for some reason. So dark
chocolate has gained a little bit more traction in the last years, but to me what it meant
is I've been living in this country for 12 years and as a professional, I was missing
the Venezuelan flavors because as we mentioned before, I learned the Venezuelan cacao taste
through El Rey, right? And El Rey is a brand that was already talking about percentage.
It was talking about the different variations of cacao butter content in the bars and how
this will affect the end flavor. And also they will have different varieties to work with.
So as a pastry chef in Venezuela, I would think of a couverture made by El Rey and how
it will affect the flavor of the dessert I wanted to develop. So when I moved back,
when I moved here, sorry, when I moved here to Norway, and as a pastry chef, as a professional,
there's only two brands that professionals could go to. And they had a Venezuelan presence in it,
but it was a blend. So the flavors I'm used to, like the caranero beans that I know really well,
for instance, I was missing that. And to me, caranero, it can be very nutty and also very
cinnamon or nutmeg. And it has this nutty, spicy flavors to it that I was really missing, for
instance. So I thought, okay, why not? Let's start with making my own chocolate because I miss it.
So it was really for selfish reasons. But then again, I'm living in Norway in the,
it's in a very exciting region, which is the area where we grow most of the foods around the country.
So here we have amazing raw products that work with like strawberries, like apples, like,
you know, the berries in Scandinavia, they all grow here. So I started like, okay, now I have
to put this on chocolate because this is amazing. And even there's a very cool halftone in English,
and it looks, it's very orange, it's a bright orange berry. And the flavor is very similar to
passion fruit. So I call it the Nordic passion fruit. And most people also call it like that,
because it is very similar. So, but most Norwegians are so used to the passion fruit
that they have forgotten that they have this local delicacy. And you will find them in restaurants
like Noma or the big gastronomic restaurants that they use it, but not so much in chocolate. So
when I put this in chocolate, and I said to the Norwegians, this is your berry called, you know,
sin bet. And they're like, what? Really? Is that ours? So for me, it's a great way to make the
bridge between both cultures where I come from and where I'm living now. So most of my bars are,
they have that concept. So the bar that won my first award was back in 2017. And it was in the
chocolate awards, and it was in the Scandinavian round. And I made it with uniper berries.
And blueberries, I still is one of, I have many customers that I love that bar. So if you remember,
uniper berries is what gives the flavors to gin. And here is also used in the local cuisine when
they make...
A game, right?
A game, exactly. Thank you for helping. But it has this citrusy gin like flavor. And I do have many customers
that enjoy gin. And they ask me normally, like, did you actually put gin on the bar? And I'm like,
no, it's just a gin uniper berry that doesn't work. So that was the inspiration that were,
you know, this is a berry that I found here and I just put it in chocolate because I thought it
wouldn't go well. And another bar that is my, I would say my best seller is the chili bar.
It's a spicy bar, but it's with chili that is grown here in Norway. Norwegians love chili. I
mean, they grow many varieties, but the one I buy is the jalapeno, fresh. And it's just so plumpy
and red. And it's just, when it's so fresh, it has, you can really see the pepper, like the
capsicum, the sweet. But then when I dehydrate it and I turn it to powder, I have to wear a mask
because it's so, like, it's so strong when you inhale it.
Yeah, it works with chili. You need to use gloves and cover your mouth.
But it's just a bright orange, you know, when I'm making it, it's just like, I really enjoy so much
the process of making it, that bar. So that's one of my best selling bars. I have others that,
I'm always trying to, you know, to add the local flavors and things. I use Norwegian sea salt
also to add to it.
Oh, I love chocolate with salt.
Yeah. But all my recipes have a pinch of salt and pepper just because I also work a lot in the
kitchen world. And I think that's a great balance to have always. So they always have a proportion
of a little bit of sea salt and pepper, black pepper to it. But here we have amazing local
products that I am just so happy to experiment in chocolate. And chocolate is just a great medium
because not only for the sweet side, but for the savory side. And, you know, in the old times it
was even used as medicine. So the limit is yours, how you want to project on chocolate.
Well, I could eat chocolate every day. There's no doubt about it. Are you working only with
Norwegian or Nordic countries' market? Or is it possible?
Yeah, I'm very local. I'm not even selling in the whole country. Like, that's my next step,
because I have many customers that they have moved out or they are like they get they come here for
some reason, because I'm always well before the pandemic, I was always in the markets. And
so they go to see my brand and I have many customers I really want to get my bars. But
for me, it has been one step at a time. And so my next step is the online sales.
But definitely starting in Norway, exports also in Norway, as you can imagine,
is not that straightforward and there's many things to consider. But right now I'm a very local
baker. But I'm really happy to be part of the local food scene, because here we have amazing
brewers, coffee roasters, cheese makers, bakers.
Cristina told me she happened to try one of your chocolates in a beer in a brewery.
Yes. And it was like a chocolate with beer, right? Yeah, this is a stout style beer that is made here
by Lervik. It's also a well-known Norwegian beer in the craft beer environment. They have this
amazing stout style that they infuse with vanilla, cacao and tonka beads. So the beer in itself is
already like a delicious dessert. Yeah, I've had this kind of beers and they work really well. And
as you say, you can pair a dessert with that and it's amazing. Sure. So I decided, okay, I'm going
to infuse cacao with some chocolate out of it. And they loved it. And we had this amazing
collaboration between the two brands. And it's been also great to get to talk to them and jam
ideas with them because they are craft makers. They're also passionate about their raw products,
about customers. They have this great philosophy of labels that are so original and out there.
Flavors also, they are like making amazing flavor beers all the time. So collaborations are a great
way to grow as a professional and get connections locally. It's very nice. And the chocolate you
made, it also had beer or it just went with the beer? I do take their beer and I infuse it for a
month. Yeah, because there's ways other chocolate makers, they will have the beans in the barrels
and infuse by just the smell, like getting the aromatics to it. But to me as a chef also,
I do have that. I like the flavors to feel strong, like they really hit you. So when I say chili bar
is chili. When I say chili bar is chili, you feel the flavor. So for me, the challenge of the beer
was like, I want people to bite into the bar and feel that they're drinking the beer. So I infuse
it with their actual beer. So yeah, I was happy with the result. And the stout anyway, they do
have this chocolate texture and flavor to it. So it's kind of like a match made in heaven basically.
So it is a nice product to work with. I do infuse also with rum. I have one with rum that I do with
Santa Teresa also. And I had it with candied orange skin. That is also popular among the people.
Then when you start creating crazy things, then you get the different crowds that are drawn to
those flavors. So that bar attracts the crowd that is into whiskey or cognac. So then they
enjoy that one. Pairing also this kind of spirit drinks with chocolate is amazing. Like a good
whiskey with chocolate or a good rum. Wow. Yeah. I do also a big part of my business is to do
chocolate tasting because I am the first chocolate maker in the region. And people, like I said,
people were used to the supermarket chocolate. So I had to explain what is craft chocolate. And
chocolate tastings have been a great window to do that. And I am a very social person. I enjoy
talking as you can see. So for me it's a great opportunity to pair chocolate with something
that people enjoy already. So I have made, you name it, I have made coffee and chocolate pairings.
I have made beer and chocolate pairings, whiskey and rum, obviously with Diplomatica.
That was a big success that tasting some years ago. I do all the tastings just to show people
that chocolate pairs well with almost everything. One crowd was really pleased when I did the cheese
and beer tasting. They didn't expect that one. Chocolate and cheese go super well. I remember
trying a dessert that was a light blue cheese with chocolate. And you couldn't feel the funkiness of
the blue cheese because at the end of the day you just had the dairy and a very strong flavor that
went really complimentary to the cacao flavor. So again, we have a cheese maker here that she is
amazing. She's a lady, a Norwegian girl that she has also award-winning cheese. I use her blue cheese
and it's just the creaminess, the saltiness. And then you get the funkiness from the fermentation
and the fungus in the cheese that goes well with the couverture. I think it goes best with.
And it's just another level of craziness. And then it goes on the saltier area, but somehow
also it awakens all the flavors within the chocolate that you didn't think were there.
Pairings are fun and it's definitely a way to just enjoy chocolate in a new dimension.
This is relatively like a new thing. I remember when I lived in Venezuela about 17 years ago,
I left, nobody was talking about bean to bar. Also not like in the gastronomy world.
I think that this movement boosted perhaps a few years later, perhaps in the beginning of the
2010s. Is that possible?
Yeah. The first time I actually encountered the concept of bean to bar, even though it
wasn't that name, it was around 2005 when I visited for the first time or I visited a
micro chocolate workshop, which is what Cacao Virongo for the Virongo. And that didn't have
that name, bean to bar, because we're talking about 2005, but that is what it was. So this
Empresa Escolar, the private initiative of them to empower the local cow producing women of Virongo
in Barlovento.
Virongo is the village or the region?
It's a village within Barlovento. So Barlovento, many small villages and then Virongo is one of
them. And it has a big Cacao tradition as well, Barlovento also. And then they, Empresas Escolar,
what they did was they were empowering the local women that were producing Cacao. So they provided
them a proper place to do their chocolate. And also they provided a chocolatier from Switzerland
to support them with the recipes development and everything. So this factory was tiny,
but it had everything. So they had, they would come with the Cacao dried and the first thing
you would encounter was the roasting process. And then there will be the shelling process,
the winnowing. And then you will see everything right until the bar. So, and then in the end,
you will meet the ladies that were packing the final product and you will leave with your,
already with your ready wrapped bar. So that was right there, but it didn't have that name.
So Venezuela has been pioneering right from the beginning, but it's just been
very modest about it sometimes, I have to say.
So what can you tell us about making Kraft chocolate in Norway with Venezuelan cocoa beans?
How is the whole process of importing the cocoa beans? I mean, there is a lot of things that has
to happen in the process. Yeah, definitely. Well, to start with, I am what is called actually a
nano batch maker. So I work with microlops. So I don't buy by the tons yet. Hopefully,
eventually that will be the case. But so that being said, I need an intermediary to help me.
And I do work with a person in Amsterdam that is also Venezuelan. And she used to work also in the
chocolate industry back home. So to me, it was the perfect link is called Gaia Cacao. And they
provide me with all the info from the farms and the beans that I need. So basically she or they
are the only link between me and the farmer in Venezuela. And what means for me is as a
small maker, then they do all the process of the import to Europe. And then for me, it's much easier
just to transfer from the Netherlands to Norway, because Norway also has another issue that
everything is far from here. Even if you're shopping online from other big browsers, then
it's always like, yeah, we ship everywhere, except Norway. So it's always the shipping is always an
issue in any branch. So I'm really happy to have to be able to work with this company in the
Netherlands. Of course, I come from Venezuela, same as you. And I know the importance that
the Venezuelan cacao has worldwide. You will see it in the biggest brands. You will see Venezuelan
varieties and everybody talks about Venezuela cacao beans. So what can you tell us about that,
about the quality of the cacao, about the reputation it has, about the varieties?
Well, you know, we could be here all night talking about this. It's a tradition that goes right for
100 years back. So it's a lot to say, but definitely it is a reputation well deserved. Most
brands, European brands will brag and be proud to show in their packaging Venezuela as an origin
among their cacao collection, let's say it. It was well established with the
compañía Wepuscuana. That was the purpose of that before the oil bonanza in Venezuela. That was only
to trade cacao and coffee. And from that time, all the reputation has been crazy. It was, I guess,
the first origin that was differentiated from the bulk cacao. So it allowed us to be tasted with
traceability, I would say. So that made it possible for instead of trying blends and just have a bland
taste of chocolate, it made it possible for people to try a cacao that was coming from a certain
place. Originally, if you look back in the old books, it will refer to Puerto Cabello from Venezuela
because they will give the name of the place that we're shipping from. Basically, not necessarily
the name of the actual farm. So you will see in the old books that they will refer to Puerto
Cabello cacao and that will be, you know, the Venezuelan origin. So that opened the door for
us, for people, as I said, to taste traceability as we refer to it today. So that built our reputation
based on, you know, the good flavor and the difference of that flavor compared to the bulk
cacao. So that's what happens also when people today start tasting Kraft chocolate and compare
it to, let's call it, supermarket chocolate. That is the first thing that hooks us into this world,
is the flavor, is when you experience that in your palate, that you feel all this journey of
sensations and things that you haven't tasted in chocolate before. And that's where, you know,
the most sweet of the addictions starts, I would say.
Yeah, it's a dark addiction. I also mentioned in the chocolate episode we did before, as a young
chef, I very shortly made an internship in Cacao, which was Maria Fernanda de Jacob's chocolate shop.
And we only work with Chocolatos del Rey, so I'm quite familiar with those chocolates.
I wanted to ask you, do you know about the, perhaps you know this better than I do,
about the influence of Maria Fernanda, what she did in the chocolate scene in Venezuela?
Sure, sure. I mean, we have so much to thank her. She was caught in this storm, I would say,
of the political situation that Venezuela was going through in the 2010s, where, you know,
we have this amazing cacao history that, you know, with the years as we became this oil
country, we kind of dropped to the side. And basically our cacao mostly was being sold,
even though it was quantity, to the big industry, to the bigger producers as mass
cacao produced. And when the crisis hit, the exports were the ones that were affected,
the big companies that were foreign companies, they left. So suddenly all these, well,
the oil industry was struggling big time and all the cacao was stocked in the country. It couldn't
leave because, you know, the traders couldn't get it out. And it was all this chaos. So
this cacao was basically... Rottening.
And then what she did is she embraced that under the crisis and said, look, we are stuck in this
country with the best cacao that we can ever dream of. Let's transform it and make it ourselves,
instead of, you know, selling everything outside or relying on bigger industries. Well, wait,
let's empower the smaller nanobatch producers. And that's what she did. So she started visiting
small producers and teaching them, okay, instead of selling your cacao to the bulk cacao,
why don't you process it this way? Then you have a quality cacao that you can sell,
you know, to smaller makers that will pay you more, you know. And then she started, you know,
spreading the word around the country, inspiring people to become better farmers, inspiring
students to become chocolate makers. And then she basically created the local market where
Venezuelans will fall in love with their own local product. And in that sense, she created a local
pride. She brought the pride again of being a cacao country and not only to sell, but also to
consume. Like Venezuelans are actually big time eaters of chocolate. So that makes me really proud
too. And it makes me really happy because then you see wonderful people like Herencia Divina,
another local brand that are right now, they just came through my mind. But Herencia Divina,
for example, with Miguel Acho, how we call him, is doing a great job. He recently got awarded by the
Chocowords. And it's just so nice because he also works with cacao from Valle de Cata. And then you
see these local connections that they start to make. And then suddenly, you know, this amazing
exotic cacao that people thought was lost, suddenly appears and you're like, wow, in that place,
there's cacao too. Wow, let's go and try. I want to try a bar made with that. And it has become of
these also sommeliers, let's call it, on cacao in Venezuela. They have developed their own taste
wheel. Oh, that's amazing. Like specific to Venezuelan cocoa beans. Yeah. So we are developing
our own tasting wheels based on how our cacao tastes like. And it's just amazing. For those who
don't know, a taste wheel is something you usually use like in the wine tasting world. Well, you have
like the equivalent to a color spectrum, but every single color has a note. So it could be something
that you could refer as an aroma. Perhaps it will be lime or berry or tobacco or leather or these
kinds of things. Exactly. Which is a tool that can be very useful for a chocolate maker that has never
worked with that origin before. It's a guide. It's not also, it's not a square, right? So it's just
a guide of the possibilities of this cacao in your hands. So that's what a taste wheel means for me,
because there's like the roasting and the processing will affect the final flavor too.
But what a taste wheel will tell me about, you know, caranero cacao or about sur del lago cacao,
which depends on if it's Guasare or what type it is in sur del lago. It will tell me just the
possibilities that I could reach if I work with this type of cacao. It is amazing because it's
at least something that you are aiming towards as a chocolate maker. And that is a potential
also that you want to understand when you buy the cacao. That is amazing that in the technical data
that I described your beans, it also can go as far as to give you some sort of sensorial tasting
idea of what you're buying. And I think that's a great standard for Venezuelan cacao to establish.
So, and going to the varieties, as a kid, I remember going to the beaches in Aragua,
and I would see the farmers drying the cocoa beans on the sun. And one of those beaches is Chuao,
which is at the same time one of the best reputed varieties from Venezuelan cacao.
So, can you tell us anything about that, about Chuao cacao beans?
Sure. I mean, I think that's a journey that I hope everyone related in the chocolate industry
can do. Like take a trip to Chuao and get to know the people. The journey itself is magical
because you have to go through this jungle. Just go from the city and then go through the mountain,
which is the rainforest. Yes, thank you. The rainforest. You can see monkeys, you can see
birds, you know, it's a very nice area also for birds watching. So eventually you get to this
beautiful sandy place, opens up suddenly from all this greenery in front of your eyes. So it's quite,
even the journey itself is quite magical. That Chuao, you can just get there only by boat.
And so that makes it super special. Basically the whole place is the hacienda, right? So the
people live actually in the hacienda because when you start walking from the beach right to the
center of the town or the village, you are already working through the plantation. And then you see
all the trees that cover and gives protection to the cacao trees. And then you find mango trees,
you have apamates, you have banana trees, you have, you know, all these
amazing variety of biodiversity growing around and all the nature that goes to it. And then you're
just walking through that right away. You will see, you will start spotting the cacao trees from,
yeah, from where I asked you to walk along. Eventually you get to the center and then,
you know, you see just the people living there that happen also to work there. And then you see
the families, the kids, the women, the men, everyone. It's a way for you to open your eyes
and understanding that cacao is not only a commodity or a fruit, but it's also a way of living.
We're talking about communities that are affected directly by it and for it. So I think that is,
sometimes when we are in Europe, we disconnect so much from that. And it's so important because
that's the difference we are trying to make. What draws me to the craft chocolate world
is the possibility to make a difference for the farmers and for the crops that we try to support
the correct cacao farming that is biodiverse, that will give us in exchange the seeds that taste
amazing, that we can make amazing chocolate with it, that also in turn only makes us happy,
but also is good for our bodies, for our children, for the economy. So to me, craft chocolate makers,
we are trying to catch up with what the specialty coffee makers are doing or the brewers, the beer
brewers are doing also now for some years. And so we are a bit late in the craft movement making,
but at the same time we are making such a big difference. So it's so nice to be part of this
movement.
That's it for this week's episode of Potluck Food Talks. Thank you for watching.
Thank you Corina Jiménez for joining the show. You can check out her stuff on shoco.no.
That's shoco with X-O-C-O dot N-O. And if you like what we're doing, make sure to subscribe
to the podcast so you never miss an episode. You can also find us on Instagram and TikTok
as Potluck Food Talks. The show airs every Monday.