00:00:04:18 - 00:00:38:07 Erich Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of Potluck Food Talks. Today we're going to make our first micro episode of our mini series called The Line. And this has a few reasons. The line is at the same time the hotline and the kitchen, which is where most things happens in a professional kitchen. Also, the line means crossing the line, and it could have also other secret meanings. 00:00:40:01 - 00:00:40:10 Phil Yeah. 00:00:42:14 - 00:00:51:01 Phil Yeah. The line, I mean, you know, sort of like it's why everything goes down known this way. Everything really, really happens. That's where you are stuck in the deep end. 00:00:51:16 - 00:01:17:12 Erich Yeah. And it's a place where a lot of pressure happens. I've heard a lot why kitchens are so aggressive, why the tone is so military sometimes. And the reason is quite simple. Like during our service, there are like, 300 deadlines. And if one deadline is not accomplished on time, all the others are affected and people get really aggressive about it. 00:01:17:15 - 00:01:43:09 Phil Yeah, absolutely. That's really what makes cooking such a stressful job, I mean, in the environments that we've worked in. No, it's that you're constantly chasing behind behind a deadline. And it's not just like one, but like another and another and another and another. You know, from morning getting ready. And then it's sort of like and then the tempo just kind of gets increased and then the deadlines just kind of multiply. 00:01:44:04 - 00:02:15:16 Erich Yeah, especially during service. I mean, if a table is waiting and you want to deliver a quality. I mean, chefs that are passionate, they're really crazy about it. But there is a line that sometimes get crossed and it's really shocking for people that Don never worked in a restaurant. The first time you go into a restaurant and you start seeing all this stuff happening, the bullying, the abuses and sometimes sadistic behaviors that go way beyond the line. 00:02:17:00 - 00:02:32:03 Erich So and that's what what we want to talk about in this minute. Serious. So could you tell us, Phil, your experience one of or how you started, which was the first restaurant or the first place where you started to see this kind of things? 00:02:32:04 - 00:02:58:01 Phil When I started cooking, I was very young and I straight away kind of threw myself into the deep end. I straightaway went to the best restaurant in the city that I was living in, which at that time was a two Michelin star French restaurant with a very famous chef, which will, for full disclosure, will call Klaus. And he was notorious for being a very tough person to work for. 00:02:58:05 - 00:03:22:23 Phil And I kind of just sort of like I mean, just showed up for a couple of weeks until they sort of admitted me as the kitchen apprentice. And he really was a tyrant. I mean, he you really just did whatever whatever the fuck you wanted whenever he was there. He was a big TV personality and nowadays even more so. 00:03:22:23 - 00:03:42:12 Phil And even back then, he was a big celebrity chef. And so he would you know, this is the thing that you see with all these kitchen stories. It's like the kitchen is kind of like a little microcosm that kind of feels like it's separate from the rest of the world. And the things that happen in that microcosm kind of stay in there. 00:03:42:12 - 00:04:13:16 Phil And it's kind of a reality where things that normally wouldn't be accepted are suddenly okay. And this guy just completely lived out this this fantasy and like, his is complex. And yeah, I mean, he was he was a really, really good chef, but he did really, really awful things. I mean, I remember that my first real experience with him was that sort of like, you know, sometimes you would call you up, he would call you up on the phone because it was part of a big five star hotel. 00:04:14:04 - 00:04:35:08 Phil And somebody would say, Glass is calling you. And so you would, you know, put your things down. You would run up the stairs, you would go into his office and he'd be like, Chef, what can I do for you? And he'd be like, Make me a double espresso. And you'd be like, Okay, fine. So you go to the coffee machine and make him a double espresso, and then the people would already warn you. 00:04:35:15 - 00:04:55:02 Phil So it's okay. Okay. Make sure you bring him two pieces of brown sugar because he wants to brown sugar and make sure you bring him a little bit of this and a little bit of that. And I was like, okay, cool. All right. And I was obviously in a rush because, you know, like, I was fully you know, it was my first time in a kitchen and I was so fully involved with like what was going on. 00:04:55:02 - 00:05:11:22 Phil So I was rushing all the time to try to keep up. And so I go to his office and I put down his coffee with the sugar and I turn around to leave and he was like, Whoa, well, where are you going? And I turned around and I was sort of like, I was just going to go back to work. 00:05:12:08 - 00:05:32:19 Phil And he looks at this cup of espresso and looks at me and he's like, okay, tell me what's wrong with this. And I was like, No, I have no idea. And he looks at it and like, just moves the handle. And he was like, when you put down a cup of espresso, the handle should be at a 45 degree angle to the edge of the table. 00:05:34:08 - 00:05:56:16 Phil And I looked at him and I was like, okay. And he just completely flew off the handle and started shouting at me for about 40 minutes. Just how what a fucking idiot I am for not knowing this. How is it that I was allowed to work in his restaurant? It's sort of like, you fucking idiot. Do you have any sense of hospital? 00:05:56:16 - 00:06:24:18 Phil Let's see. Have you ever. Do you ever think about what you do? You just come into my office, you put down his cup, you don't even fucking think about what you're doing. Is completely freaked out. That was my first encounter with him. And it was. It was very uncomfortable, obviously. But like, at the same time, still to this day, I had developed this habit that, like, if I order like an espresso, even at a restaurant, I automatically move the handle to like a 45 degree angle. 00:06:24:24 - 00:06:36:03 Phil Not because I like, not because I'm like, Oh, that was such a valuable lesson or because I really admire that. But somehow it kind of stuck in a kind of like, Do this. And I developed this habit. 00:06:36:03 - 00:07:04:09 Erich The many, many examples like that stuff that you learn, like not even the hard way, but like the asshole way. And then you, you learn to like a way of doing something and you never do it otherwise. I guess this is among many others. Part of the reason why chefs behave like that. I would say another reason is because, I mean, if you could be a quantum physicist, you wouldn't be in a kitchen. 00:07:04:20 - 00:07:26:08 Erich So a kitchen is mostly a place for illiterates, gangsters, people with some some crimes behind whatever, like street people they do not. People will give you, like, a peaceful, valuable lesson, like a Buddhist monk or something. 00:07:26:09 - 00:07:54:11 Phil Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is true. And I mean, this is a very sort of old school mentality. I mean, a lot of people will know that kitchen structures are based on on military structures and that a lot of the behavior comes from a very sort of military mindset. And that's it's not so long ago that and I mean, still today, I mean, there's still like very recent stories of restaurants closing because of these sorts of allegations. 00:07:55:02 - 00:08:19:10 Phil But anyway, that was my first encounter with him. But he I feel like every time he wasn't in the restaurant a lot, but I feel like every time he came, he would just live out this cruel fantasy of his. And because it was a hotel and a pretty big restaurant, there were quite a lot of apprentices and they were part of, you know, out of the group of people that he would pick on. 00:08:19:10 - 00:08:34:11 Phil So I remember, for example, again, the phone would ring, you'd pick up and it's like, Oh, class is calling. So it's like, yeah, round everybody up. So you take the like five or six apprentices and everybody would come up. So he'd be like, All right, I've made something for you all. Come and try it and he'd dish it out. 00:08:34:11 - 00:08:56:23 Phil And it was like something in a sort of like yellow cream, saffron sauce. And as the first of us started to try it, it became apparent that what he had done was collect the fish guts from the fish getting cleaned that day and then has a genius idea of cooking them and the creamy saffron sauce and making the apprentices eat it immediately. 00:08:58:07 - 00:09:33:10 Phil Yeah, and like for no apparent reason, you know, just, just because he was like that. But then again I also one time saw him inspect the the museum glass containers with chopped herbs, and there was a container with very, very finely cut chives and he would go through them with a silver teaspoon. And normally when the sous chefs were doing it, if they found a piece that was longer than the rest, they would throw the whole thing away, tell you to make it again, which is, you know, unnecessary in itself because you could just pick it out, whatever. 00:09:33:10 - 00:09:56:20 Phil No, but they were making a point about it. At one point I saw him checking the section and it was also somebody in his like sort of last year of apprenticeship. So he was already cooking in a restaurant, managing a section, etc., together with the chef, the party and he was they show me, you show me a chives, starts looking through it, picks out this like longer piece, puts it down, is like, what the fuck is this? 00:09:57:22 - 00:10:22:14 Phil Not what the fuck is this? And the guy just looks at it. He's like, Oh, I'm sorry, chef, I'll go through it and was like, Eat it. And the guy looks at him, he's like, What is like, You fucking hit it? And so he made this guy this like, I mean, I don't know how much is in like a nine £9 container, you know, it's sort of like full of cut chives. 00:10:22:14 - 00:10:32:20 Phil I mean, and the guy was just like, standing there with a spoon, just spooning this these chives in his mouth and made him eat the whole fucking container. 00:10:33:06 - 00:10:52:11 Erich They did that to me once. The stories of eat it. I remember once like, Chef, the party came to me and said in it and I was like, What the fuck? And and and I started doing like, like something else. And then he came back. No, no, no. I want you to. I want to see you eating it. 00:10:53:05 - 00:11:07:02 Erich And I was like, No way, I'm eating anything. What the fuck is wrong with you? You know? But. But at the same time, I think what's going on in your head that you want to see me even, You know, it was like, I don't know, like, like some cakes and something like that. 00:11:07:08 - 00:11:37:08 Phil That's super sick. It's like I've seen it happen a few times, actually, where, like, something's happening. Somebody overcooked a scallop, right? And like, you know, you sent a scout up to the pass and the guy like, whoever is on the pass, chef or whatever, you know, checks it. It's, of course, fucking overcooked. And then you're like, Oh, you know, you find a new one, and then it turns out it's like, he did fucking eat it, you know, bullshit comments like, I just died in vain. 00:11:37:09 - 00:11:44:09 Phil You know, I've seen it a couple of times. It's this asserting your dominance over somebody. 00:11:44:23 - 00:12:07:18 Erich But also pisses me off is this kind of chefs that I've seen this way too many times. You know, they behave like this with their own team and then, like, of course, like a reporter or I guess comes in the kitchen and they're this super friendly family guy, you know, like that. Behave that. 00:12:07:18 - 00:12:30:21 Phil Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's and, you know, for such a long time it was the most normal thing. You know, when I, when I started cooking around the time when we met each other, that's all I knew. Like, that's, that's what kitchens were like for me, you know, kitchens where the chef and owner was proud that people would only stay for three or four months because it was so tough and they would leave. 00:12:30:22 - 00:12:55:01 Erich Yeah. And actually, when you go to these places, you should know that it is like that. Otherwise you you will have a really hard time. You know, you should be like prepared to undergo like some crazy shit because that in many of these places. But at least I would prepare myself psychologically before starting to work in this kind of places. 00:12:55:01 - 00:13:14:06 Phil Yeah, definitely. But you know, it's kind of like you think that's like the this, these places, they're, you know, they have the highest accolade staff Michelin stars and the lowest staff come your points of view and Europe, you know all that sort of stuff. So you kind of go in and you think that this is this it has to be like this in order to get there. 00:13:14:14 - 00:13:36:18 Phil But then afterwards you see places that have just as many accolades, but that keep this stuff for like five, six years. It's easy. And I mean, what an asset to keep somebody for that long time, you know, And that is much more difficult than just burning through your chefs. And those are the places that I really respect, you know, because that is really something productive. 00:13:36:18 - 00:13:42:12 Phil That's something that that where you create and you build something, you know, it's productive instead of destructive. 00:13:42:12 - 00:13:46:21 Erich Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Do you have any more stories about Klaus? 00:13:47:01 - 00:14:08:10 Phil Yeah, I have one more. I remember one time it got really uncomfortable. I actually have two more, two quick ones, and one time got really uncomfortable in the kitchen because one of our apprentices, she was a she was one of few women in the kitchen at the time and she was she was a very tough girl. She was in her last year of her apprenticeship and everybody really liked her. 00:14:08:19 - 00:14:37:16 Phil She has a lot of character, a lot of a lot of fire, really tough. So Ginger Girl replies and I remember one day she came in and she wasn't feeling very well, but she still came in and she was like, We were doing this big sort of banquet or something. And Klaus went to her and he he was sort of like, I made you, I saved you a creme brulee and and she was like, our chef. 00:14:37:17 - 00:15:12:03 Phil Yeah. Thank you. But I'm not feeling too well today. I don't really want to eat anything. And he got very upset with her and he said, How are you going to work in my kitchen if you don't try the things that you serve? And so she kind of got bullied into eating this creme brulee and she took one spoon and immediately she just kind of went white and disappeared into the bathroom to screw up because what he had done, she had taken a plate and put in mayonnaise and spatula it flat, covered it with sugar and related as a as a joke, you know. 00:15:12:22 - 00:15:36:18 Phil But actually, the team, it was it was a really uncomfortable moment in the kitchen because everybody really liked this girl. She was super hardworking. She was like, you know, part of the team. And there's always this like gap between the kitchen team and the head chef, especially when it's like a celebrity chef who's never there. All right? It's like either you're part of the team, you're there, you're cooking, you guys are fire cleaning down together or you are something separate. 00:15:36:23 - 00:15:41:10 Phil Right? And everybody was kind of like, what you just did was really fucked up. 00:15:41:19 - 00:15:42:15 Erich Yeah, it is. 00:15:42:19 - 00:16:06:05 Phil And then there was one time also, which was also just as uncomfortable. This guy Klaus, he used to get some dodgy people in sometimes. And I remember this one chef, the party was on the grill section. He was this like, super burly Russian guy, fully tattooed, very tough guy. And Klaus, he had the habit of standing at the pass and inspecting people plating. 00:16:06:10 - 00:16:27:00 Phil The pass was this huge marble pass with heat lamps straight over a sort of like headlamps straight over to pass. Very beautiful pass, but the heat lamps are very, very close to the marble surface. So you were plating underneath these heat lamps. And if you were doing something wrong, he would reach in and, like, lift your hand up so it would touch the heat lens. 00:16:27:00 - 00:16:43:15 Phil He would burn your hand, which is really shitty in itself. But then, like this, this Russian guys started. And I remember like, he he did something wrong and the like grabbed his hand to like, put it against the so did just say his name. Yeah. Okay. So yeah. 00:16:46:03 - 00:17:15:18 Phil Okay. So Klaus this, this Russian guy, he made a mistake and Klaus reached in to grab his hand and put it up, and this guy immediately ripped the sandwich squared off. And this guy who was used to, like, just reign terror in his kitchen, just, like, immediately was thrown out of his, like, weird, bizarre reality of where he's the God and it's sort of like, Alright, this guy might actually just like, punch me in the face. 00:17:16:03 - 00:17:22:09 Phil And he was like, Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And then the guy went back to plating his food and everybody in the kitchen was like. 00:17:22:09 - 00:17:46:20 Erich This is this is another crazy thing. This abusive people at the end of the day are fucking cowards. If you confront them, they don't take it, you know? Yeah, that that's the weird thing that they wouldn't take what they're doing that that's the other, the other psychologically fucked up thing that they have. I also remember you told me once that this guy Klaus would say, like, you can sue me if you want. 00:17:46:20 - 00:17:53:10 Erich I go there all the time. I know the judge and the trial people and blah, blah, blah. 00:17:53:15 - 00:18:18:21 Phil Yeah, yeah, yeah. He did say that to me a few times here. But the thing is, the glorification of of his behavior and everybody was supporting it, you know, like the chefs were supporting it, the hotel management was supporting it. It was like a caricature. It was sort of like, Oh, we have this Michelin star chef. And he's a little bit eccentric. 00:18:19:09 - 00:18:23:10 Phil But eccentric doesn't mean or shouldn't mean. 00:18:23:20 - 00:18:25:23 Erich Biases and abuses. Yeah. 00:18:26:10 - 00:18:44:12 Phil And and, you know, harassing and just awful things. Yeah, he said that a few times to me. He was like, I don't even remember what the situation was. I wanted like, some days off, I wanted to take some vacation. And he was like, he called me to his office and he was sort of like, You're not going to get it. 00:18:44:12 - 00:18:59:12 Phil And I was like, okay, all right, that sucks, I guess. But, you know, like, I wasn't I wasn't the sort of person to argue, like, I just kind of shut my mouth and just went with it. And he was like, well, if you want, you know, if you think that this isn't right, then, you know, go sue me. 00:18:59:12 - 00:19:13:11 Phil Go like drag me in front of the court. I like it. I enjoy it. I enjoy it when you guys and I don't even care if I lose. I just, you know, like, I just. I just like saying what I want and yeah, he was. 00:19:14:01 - 00:19:24:14 Erich And I also remember a super bizarre story where this guy was telling you, Yeah, I love to get like a I had watch massage, so. 00:19:24:18 - 00:19:25:02 Phil Oh, yeah. 00:19:25:05 - 00:19:31:08 Erich Well, I mean, a lot of he yeah. 00:19:31:23 - 00:19:53:05 Phil He would come up with the most bizarre shit like because you know, you're used to him like, abusing you. So much that like, then and you don't expect him to come in because he would just coming by surprise. You be there like once a week at the most red. So he would come in and suddenly be next to you and everybody would be on their tiptoes and then you'd be doing something. 00:19:54:02 - 00:20:14:24 Phil And as was I, it was kind of like prepping something and it's like, Oh, class or class. And then he would come up to me. It's like, How are you doing? I'm like, Yeah, yeah. And he'd be like, Yeah, What are you doing this weekend? But he'd like, talk to you about football first. It'd be like Bayern Munich Win and then, I don't know, I didn't watch the game. 00:20:14:24 - 00:20:39:09 Phil Now. And you're doing anything this weekend? I don't know. And he was like, You know, the best thing after a week of work is laying down in a dark room with a packet of ice on your stomach while a woman is shampooing your hair. And then he just walked off and I was like, that is the most creepy, bizarre shit that I've ever heard in my life. 00:20:40:18 - 00:20:47:24 Phil Why did you feel like you had to share this with me? Yeah, just like that was. 00:20:48:08 - 00:21:18:05 Erich Just like that. So my my first kitchen experience, I also will for disclosure change names and things. So it wasn't a French restaurant. And in Caracas, it was my first job. The rhythm in this kitchen was insanely fast. Some days we would serve 500 covers. It was a beautiful building and the the kitchen was one of them, like a pirate ship, you know, All these guys were badasses, a lot of aggressive attitude, a lot of shit talking. 00:21:18:12 - 00:21:45:00 Erich And of course, the sous chef was super aggressive guy that would like have everybody on their tiptoes as well. What I learned the most in this place was how to work without resources. Because there weren't resources, sometimes there is no strainer. Well then you do take a tray with holes. There is no oil where then you open a lot like a can of pick your peppers, stick your fish inside of it, and then you throw it to the pan. 00:21:45:00 - 00:22:04:02 Erich These kind of things that I thought were really creative and people would do this just without thinking, you know, It was just like, like a reflex when they the sous chef was in the in the pastry and and there was this important table. One of the waiters comes into the kitchen and says, Do you have any cappuccino ice cream? 00:22:04:11 - 00:22:25:17 Erich And the pastry chef was like, No. And he was shitting on his pants because if the sous chef would come to his station, he would like, open everything to like an inspection of everything and find stuff, of course, and humiliate this guy publicly in front of everyone. He would do this a lot, but I mean, it was all the way to keep the kitchen. 00:22:26:01 - 00:22:46:17 Erich He was not as abusive and not not a great example of of abuse. But anyways, he would say, okay, bring me for his pretzels. He would take vanilla ice cream and let me know. Just mix the here's your espresso, ice cream, your knowledge, your cappuccino ice cream, and do these kinds of things, like with a lot of stuff making stuff out of nowhere. 00:22:46:17 - 00:23:17:04 Erich Right? Actually, we had we've had together some experiences where we have to do these kind of things. And I think that's something I learned there and that kitchen. But the story is not about this kitchen. It's about this girl who would come to work there and yeah, let's call her Nadia. Let's call her just Nadia. Well, she would come to the kitchen because there was also this catering service and and everybody would respect her like a fucking gangster. 00:23:17:04 - 00:23:45:09 Erich And I wouldn't understand why. And at some point I asked someone and they told me, like, you don't know who she is, what she did. And like a juror earlier in the same kitchen, she was like working there. And yeah, there was this other like a chef, that party who would harasser daily like bully her daily and mess with her, apparently telling her for being a lesbian. 00:23:45:09 - 00:24:16:10 Erich I don't know if she was or not or bisexual or whatever, but he was like, Oh, you last man and dude sounds like this. Every time she she stepped into the kitchen and called her names and do stuff and on and on and on and on. Like for one year every day and one day in the middle of service, he grabs her ass and just in a fraction of a second, she takes a paring knife and stops the guy in middle of service, you know? 00:24:16:24 - 00:24:38:24 Erich And then the guy falls to the ground. The knife didn't touch by miracle, and he organized the guy is with his stomach bleeding and everybody's around. And then the sous chef is, okay, well, what is everybody look at here. You clean the floor out of the ground. We're going with table four preserves. Took our pictures. They will change. 00:24:39:00 - 00:24:58:21 Erich We go with 3 minutes. Somebody call an ambulance. And the service went on there. Nobody called the police and nobody there were. You know, the next day the guy came by like, you know, we're like a week after and after that, so no one ever messes with her again. 00:24:58:22 - 00:25:02:19 Phil That's super crazy. That's that's really, really crazy.