00:00:04:08 - 00:00:10:22 Erich Hi everyone, welcome to Potluck Episode five. Today we're going to talk about cookbooks. 00:00:11:05 - 00:00:17:13 Phil Cookbooks. One of the main obsessions of every chef, I think. What are your favorite cookbook? 00:00:18:12 - 00:00:43:08 Erich I would say my, my number one is the French Laundry Cookbook. For me, I discovered this book while working in Mugaritz. Someone had it in the shared flat where we used to live, the trainees. And I was really impressed it by the similarities with Mugaritz. They also had a garden. The chefs were also, like impeccably dressed. 00:00:46:02 - 00:01:18:22 Erich It was like a year later that I managed to buy the book for myself and read it. And I really like that. It was not about the recipes. Actually, I have never cooked one of the recipes of the book, but it has like entire chapters where they will talk about kind of like gastronomy philosophy, about being respectful with the products, knowing the stories of the producers, understanding technique, being respectful with traditions, with execution. 00:01:21:06 - 00:01:33:14 Erich And this all told in first person by Thomas Keller. So like in a way of format, I think the book was really, really interesting for me. 00:01:34:20 - 00:02:01:08 Phil Yeah, definitely. It's also one of my favorite cookbooks of all time. And it's crazy how it's, you know, how it's still relevant today. It's quite an old book by now. And still you open it up and things. Of course, they're a little bit past the time, but, you know, they're still interesting. You could still see them in a restaurant the way that the dishes are depicted in the book nowadays. 00:02:01:08 - 00:02:21:05 Phil And it would still it still holds a place, you know, and that's not something that you find a lot. When you look at old cookbooks, you know, often, you know, it's a very firm trend that then kind of like develops. But you can really see how influential Thomas Keller was in the, you know, the world wide cooking scene. 00:02:21:20 - 00:02:49:23 Erich Yeah, I remember that the first year I knew about the French domain was, I think 2005. And that year it was named the the best restaurant according to the 50 best restaurant lists. If it wasn't that year, it was next year. But I remember it was the best in the world and in many times is a restaurant that people don't understand because it's so classic. 00:02:50:01 - 00:03:18:06 Erich And a lot of people just want to see fireworks in a restaurant. While French 200% are pretty sober proposals and offers and culinary style. But again, for me, the most interesting is the philosophy and the character itself and the whole story about Thomas Keller, how he opened that restaurant and how he started from scratch. And many you see that kitchen now and how it was when they open in the mid-nineties. 00:03:18:06 - 00:03:19:14 Erich It's really impressive. 00:03:20:16 - 00:03:53:04 Phil Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, you know, they were also like one like not that the main instigator, but definitely one of the main reasons for the Californian food scene revolution and this sort of American cooking identity, because before it was all kind of imported. And of course, you know, a lot of things are rooted in and, you know, Mediterranean, European cooking and French cooking techniques, but they really they really pushed it forward, you know, in the states. 00:03:53:10 - 00:04:25:18 Erich Interesting. Is also at the moment cookbooks. I think that they just replicate the format of the French Laundry cookbook one by one. I mean, the the the book is again, they talk about producers in between recipes. They talk about the stories about the how how David Chang opened his restaurant so that like, this is a way that you can measure the influence of a book if someone replicates that same idea in its own way, you know? 00:04:25:21 - 00:04:41:13 Phil That's true. And I mean, you know, you can't deny the influence off of David Chang. I mean, I only very recently opened that book again after many, many, many years. I don't own it, but I came across a copy and I saw it and I was like, Oh, wow, you know, I haven't seen this book in a while. 00:04:41:23 - 00:05:05:19 Phil And again, it's like, it's quite old by now. I mean, I remember you and me like looking at that book when I when I just started cooking, when we first met. And you read it now and it's still like it's still valid, you know, and there's still valuable recipes in there and the food still looks very good. And I mean, of course, you know, David Chang had such a a such a unique approach. 00:05:05:19 - 00:05:31:02 Phil And I feel like he tore down so many boundaries. It's also sort of like, what, fine dining, if that's what you want to call it, is culturally also, you know, being you Asian American and, you know, bringing different influences into his culinary sort of like vision from Korea, from his time in Japan and his fascination with Japanese food. 00:05:31:02 - 00:05:45:23 Phil You know, and he was I mean, also, again, one of the first guys who really drove that sort of like modern Asian movement forward. I don't want to call it fusion because it's not really fusion. It's a it's a just a different culinary identity. Yeah. 00:05:46:01 - 00:06:23:22 Erich Yeah. Well, and and if we're talking about ideas, because one of the most interesting things of these books is chefs talking about their processes. And I think it's really relevant to mention Christine Puglisi is a book of ideas and the way that book is made, you will just tell you a concept could be an ingredient or a technique or something intangible, and he will just philosophize about it, write a whole page on, on. 00:06:24:04 - 00:06:32:11 Erich But on that topic and linking it to a recipe. So which is again, a very interesting way to make a professional cookbook. 00:06:32:13 - 00:06:58:16 Phil Yeah, definitely. And also, you know, in that book, you know, he has this very particular style, which I thought was very interesting when that book came out, which is, you know, again, obviously, you know, sort of coming from the very new back then Nordic movement in Copenhagen, but like this like very minimalistic approach to plating and to dish architecture if you want. 00:06:59:10 - 00:07:32:20 Phil But yeah, the most it, I agree, is super interesting way of writing a cookbook which is actually very similar to to my favorite cookbook, which is just titled Cook's book by Pascal Babbo, the head chef and co-owner of Restaurants in in Paris. And it's a beautiful book because, first of all, it's photographed amazingly. It's really, really gorgeous. But at the same time, there are there are some recipes, but he in the beginning talks about that. 00:07:32:20 - 00:08:12:04 Phil It didn't really make sense for him in his head, in his mind, to write a cookbook, because the way that he works is very intuition and very spontaneous. And dishes are constantly changing. So what he did instead is he presents dishes and then talks for 2 to 3 pages about the process, his thinking behind how he got there, how he arrived there, breaking down the products, breaking down techniques, the balance of, you know, that he wants to like that he wants to strive for what he wants you to experience with the dish. 00:08:12:04 - 00:08:44:20 Phil And it's incredibly interesting to read because rather than just replicating a recipe, you understand his thought process behind it much more. Apart from that, it's also interesting that together with that cookbook becomes a smaller book where he photographs a sort of step by step guide of certain techniques, like a grilling, a pigeon, you know. But he is notoriously famous for incredible execution and just like really like laser sharp precision and again, photographed really, really beautifully. 00:08:44:20 - 00:08:50:23 Phil And then you see how he cooks a pigeon. And it's it's just it's just really inspiring. 00:08:51:09 - 00:09:25:14 Erich Another wonder that comes to my mind and I think, well, it's hard to to pick one of the many books related to a book or for another, because they have published many books. They even have their own publishing company. And so you have all the the classic books and then you have like The Secrets of a book, which is a book from 94, which is just about how they conceptualize everything inside a book. 00:09:25:21 - 00:10:00:01 Erich I would say my favorite one is a book or from 1992 called The Cuisine of the Mediterranean in Spanish. And this is really interesting because I think you get to see that like a synthesis of the whole nouvelle cuisine movement into like a conclusion in that book and actually early nineties, I would, I would say the absolute end of the world cuisine and were new to the narrative trends start to evolve starting with Fiorano. 00:10:00:01 - 00:10:29:01 Erich They're also super interesting. He tells about all of his thought processes in that book and he also presents are a creative methodology that works with with tables sheets that that this is not common at all to expect from a book in 1992 similar to that one is another book called Lost Fosters the Body The Desserts from a book from Alberto Urrea. 00:10:29:01 - 00:10:47:04 Erich And it's kind of the same time they also talk about their whole philosophy. He many of the recipes that they present in those books became lot like standards that you'll see over and over in different restaurants all over the world. And just for that, I figure it has a huge merit. 00:10:47:04 - 00:11:13:01 Phil Yeah, for sure. I mean, the influence of Elderberry is so incredibly potent and powerful. It's insane, you know? And people often forget a little bit this the kind of people who don't know, they brush it off as an idea, as the guide of molecular gastronomy, but it's a ghost. So, oh, beyond that, you know, like make sure, you know, that's kind of what's stemmed from. 00:11:13:14 - 00:11:28:16 Phil And there are a lot of really poor imitators around the world. Yeah, the influence of Italy is as crazy. I've never actually have a chance to look into that book, The Mediterranean Cookbook of Italy. I know that there's someone Goudie is on the cover, right? 00:11:28:24 - 00:11:51:09 Erich Yeah. It's a pretty hard to find book. My. My friend Louise, the chef from Central in New York. He has it original and signed. But actually it's not so hard to find on the Internet and on a PDF version. It's a many pages that you can download. Oh yeah. And and so talking about the other brothers worth mentioning is also not one. 00:11:51:17 - 00:11:52:14 Erich That's an amazing book. 00:11:52:14 - 00:11:53:19 Phil Yeah, for sure. 00:11:54:02 - 00:11:56:01 Erich What are your comments on that, Laura? 00:11:56:10 - 00:12:21:15 Phil Yeah, I mean, you kind of touched on it already. You know, like there's so many techniques that stem from the work of Albert Adria that are now just commonplace in any kitchen, you know, like high level fine dining kitchens and even sort of like midrange kitchens that they've invented and developed so many techniques and so many processes that are now just widespread throughout the international culinary world. 00:12:21:15 - 00:12:39:03 Phil It's crazy. I mean, one of the things that comes to mind is the microwave sponge. In order to cook in a in a little plastic cup. I don't know how many times I've seen that everywhere, all around the world. And it's it's absolutely crazy to me. And, I mean, just because of that, I mean, it's also very beautiful book. 00:12:39:12 - 00:13:12:11 Phil It's I mean, if you haven't seen it, it's desserts that are very sort of that are modeled after inspiration that comes from nature. So you'll have things that look like bark and rocks and it's very beautiful. And for me, like also, you know, we kind of get summed up as a bully, but I think you have to really separate Okwui and Ferran Adria from, you know, we and other Adria, you know, who both although working in the same place, have had their own influence, you know, massively. 00:13:12:11 - 00:13:39:00 Erich Absolutely. Yeah. Well, and since we're talking about that, it's also worth mentioning where it's I think my my that means the same sometimes with music. The many times. Now my favorite album is the first one from from an artist and many times with cookbooks or it happens the same. And I think that is is, is also an example of it. 00:13:39:00 - 00:14:16:20 Erich I really like the first cookbook say it about foie gras and about Ofelia about cooking with wild herbs that time that that was really different. What they were doing back then from what they're doing today or even in the last ten years, it feels almost a completely different response to that cookbook. I remember you would have like the recipes and next to it there would be lot like different Basque writers would break it like short stories or just like literary work around those herbs. 00:14:16:23 - 00:14:31:19 Erich And I think that was also like a pretty cool way to design a book, like adding some literary and poetry to it, not not just being creating like a theatrical deal, but also that like something more artistic and creative. 00:14:32:03 - 00:14:53:22 Phil Yeah, for sure. I it's like they really, I mean, it gives a sort of sense of place. But also, you know, if you look at the, the, the main sort of like first big cookbook that they did with, you know, they have also so many sort of like elements in between the dishes. You know, you have photographs of the hills and the mountains and the forests and herbs and ferns and the garden. 00:14:54:07 - 00:15:21:22 Phil And it gives you this sense of romanticism and mystical. It gives it this mystical feeling, you know, which I feel like my garden is kind of about, you know, kind of tucked away in the best countryside. And there's so much like that's a mythical feeling to it. And I mean, you know, anybody who knows underneath al-Douri knows that he's you know, he's a very poetic guy in his thinking, in his approach, like his work approach and the way that he talks about his philosophy. 00:15:21:22 - 00:15:26:15 Phil And so, I mean, he has a very beautiful way of of thinking about things. Yeah. 00:15:26:19 - 00:15:54:11 Erich Other books that I like about pomegranates. Also before the one you mentioned, the first big fight on book, there's one about God called Taboola that was like a like from an editorial design perspective. It's a really beautiful book with amazing pictures of accused on the court. And they invited chefs from all over the world to cook their own cod recipes. 00:15:54:11 - 00:16:19:17 Erich So I remember it was like really international. And they also did another one that is about two generations in movies. So they would take that like that scene from a movie. And again, they invited chefs from all over the world so everyone would get like a specific scene and they would cook a recipe around it. So that that's also like a pretty fun book to read. 00:16:19:20 - 00:16:21:03 Phil I haven't actually seen the one. 00:16:21:03 - 00:16:42:20 Erich Yeah, I don't even remember the name, but it's something that I think it were like 50 different movies they took and 50 different chefs. So in talking about McGarry, it's always takes you back to Michelle Bar. I think that that's has to be one of the most influential cookbooks ever to get to work with the ones that we just mentioned. 00:16:44:10 - 00:17:05:07 Erich But again, Michelle Brown created a style of of understanding nature and surroundings and putting it into play in a very creative way, but at the same time, not pretentious at all. So it's probably one of the most interesting cuisines there is. 00:17:05:07 - 00:17:29:22 Phil Absolutely. I think it's one of the most influential chefs. So lifetime, you know, he's so like he really revolutionized this sort of style and also the like, the lightness, the natural, like the weight of the natural, you know, going away from, you know, being too stiff, I mean, is by far one of my favorite chefs. And it's a beautiful cookbook also also one of those cookbooks that is very old. 00:17:29:22 - 00:17:52:06 Phil But you opened it now. And it's still interesting, you know, and I mean, his signature dishes have been recreated all around the world. You know, his most famous dish, the guy who you you find versions of that dish which, you know, he made a version of a traditional sort of vegetable, stewed and or then made from different vegetables and bacon. 00:17:53:01 - 00:18:17:22 Phil And it's his signature dish is a selection of vegetables from his garden and the surroundings cooked in very specific ways and then assembled. So it basically looks like a, you know, like a sort of vegetable salad, but it's so intricate and so technical and you find different versions of just that dish everywhere. Everywhere. Chefs in Japan, chefs in Spain, you know, chefs in the States and everywhere. 00:18:17:22 - 00:18:24:15 Phil People have made this sort of conscious or not conscious homage to Michelle for recreating this dish. 00:18:25:07 - 00:18:54:12 Erich Also, the the this style of of plating on an infinite white surface, I think was the first one to do that. Now, it also became like a standard you'll see over and over again in the French cookbooks and pictures. Yeah. So since we're in France, I think it's also worth mentioning Alain Ducasse, he has many books, most of them are quite expensive, so I just managed to get one that is there, the Mediterranean cuisine. 00:18:54:12 - 00:19:22:00 Erich And that's an amazing book because they they stylize into like more modern fine dining formats, traditional dishes from all over the Mediterranean, more North Africa, Eastern Europe, Saudi Europe. Every country that has contact with the Mediterranean there is not for sure a recipe and a book and there is also no like a short comment on it before the recipes. 00:19:22:00 - 00:19:48:00 Erich And the recipes are pretty good standardized recipes last night on a restaurant level. Also, the pictures they took they made like a standard monochromatic plate with with cutlery around. So each dish would be played it on one of these backgrounds. So the whole book has its own lot like visual language, like consistency across the whole, the whole book. 00:19:48:03 - 00:19:50:18 Erich So like, like a really good one. I recommend that. 00:19:50:19 - 00:20:15:09 Phil Yeah, it's, it's a really good book. I've seen it a few times actually, and it's yeah, I learned of course. Also. I mean, I mean you can't deny learned to cassis influence you know, I mean he's he's one of the godfathers of French cooking and he's still with us. And also one of the people who brought it away from already the sort of nouvelle cuisine movements would be much more lighter, much more natural. 00:20:15:12 - 00:20:41:18 Phil And just a little bit more. Yeah, a little bit lighter. More elegant, more lifted. Yes, it's a really fantastic book. So one of my all time favorite cookbooks. Also, just because when I read it, it was so inspiring to me and it kind of really dictated sort of like what I would be interested in, kind of just like the of book. 00:20:41:18 - 00:21:15:21 Phil And the book is the first topic input cookbook by Magnus Nielsen. And it was just so, I was so fascinated by I mean, first of all, it's a beautiful book, beautifully shot. There's such a sense of terroir and the environment that is in. But at the same time, the way that he also talks about the cooking precision and the purity of the ingredients and reading, also, there's a lot of text about his approach, how he you know, how what his thought process is. 00:21:15:21 - 00:21:40:00 Phil And I really love that style of sort of like just having a really fantastic product, cooking it really excellently with very, very top execution and then just presenting it very, very simply in a very natural way. And I thought that was fantastic and it really inspired me and it like still now follows me around. I still find it inspiring and it's still how I want to put myself. 00:21:40:12 - 00:22:11:18 Erich A pending task that I have actually is going in for the the whole work of of as some Blumenthal authors. I know all the highlights of what he's done, but I haven't actually took the time to see had the fat fat the cookbook and and all these other books he has published. But I know that I direct consequence of his work is modernist cuisine. 00:22:11:18 - 00:22:38:24 Erich Since the book was mainly developed by two former ex ex-head chefs of the Fat Duck. And like it or not, while they're in this kitchen, also they've set a new standard for many things many of the recipes have not. Like the other books we mention have been replicated all over the place. They work pretty well. It sounds like an insane work. 00:22:39:09 - 00:23:21:01 Erich Everything they did, of course, the budget they had, it was also like a super high budget to produce a cookbook. At the same time, I wouldn't say it's one of my favorites, but I think it's were worth mentioning. They also kind of established actually, I movement in Seattle, which is where the book was published, and that is still alive today of having an approach like a more technical approach to cooking and using not so common pieces of equipment to develop new techniques around it. 00:23:21:01 - 00:23:35:23 Erich Also. Well, it's highly technical mainly, but it's not a chef's cookbook. But at the same time it is. It's not a restaurant cookbook, but it feels like it. So in cases like LA, like an interesting publication. 00:23:36:06 - 00:24:00:07 Phil Yeah, it's interesting for sure. And I mean, it's, you know, it's a different approach for sure. It's kind of depends what sort of person you are. You know, if you're like a very, very technical guy who likes the science aspect of it or whether, you know, like you're more like intuitive cook you know, I mean, for me, for example, I think cooking is a lot about intuition. 00:24:00:07 - 00:24:28:21 Phil But then like you can't deny that the control and the depth that one of this cuisine goes into is, you know, it's fantastic. I mean, to work with this stuff is really, really great. It went into into so much detail with so many things. And I mean, you have to say that and this sort of movement like the last, I don't know, like ten years at least, it's broadened a lot of chefs horizon, a lot of cooks horizon, so much. 00:24:28:21 - 00:24:54:24 Phil I mean, like even now going into a relatively normal kitchen, you can talk to anybody about fermentation, about alcohol and vinegar, production. And people have like a very like a pretty basic understanding, but have an understanding of the processes that go on behind these preparations. You know, and I think that's that's really cool. And I mean, it just enriches the profession. 00:24:55:17 - 00:24:59:16 Phil Yeah. But it's yeah, it's it's a fun it's a fantastic body of work today. 00:24:59:16 - 00:25:36:09 Erich So yeah, it's like I'm a go to book if you want to consult any specific. Yeah, well I think we've covered a lot of books and most of them are chefs or similar cookbooks. But I think we could make a follow up episode going more like the specific traditional books, or perhaps another one we're autobiographical or biographies. So there is so, so much an attitude in our library that we could make many episodes about it. 00:25:36:09 - 00:25:37:18 Phil Yeah, that's true. That sounds good. 00:25:37:20 - 00:25:49:21 Erich So I think I was thinking perhaps we could find out on our next episode about just kitchen stories, kitchen confidential things that we've seen and live in different restaurants. 00:25:50:00 - 00:25:51:24 Phil Yeah, story time with Eric and Phil. 00:25:52:18 - 00:25:53:18 Erich And secondly. 00:25:53:18 - 00:25:56:08 Phil I think that sounds great. It's definitely a lot of stories to tell. 00:25:56:08 - 00:25:58:04 Erich The OC, right? See you next time. 00:25:58:10 - 00:26:01:08 Phil All right. Your next time.