Hi, everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks,
the show where we talk food and kitchens from
a cook's point of view. My name is Eric, and
I'm here with Phil, the chiffonade grandmaster.
And today we're talking creativity. We're continuing
our series of creativity. This is going to be
a series of episodes. I don't know how many.
Let's see just how deep we can go into it. But
first... Now, let's talk about actual cooking.
We've been talking about all the constraints,
the business model. So I will put it more specific
to you. You have a restaurant, okay? You have
two trained chefs. One of them is a good friend
of you that you've been in the trenches together.
The other one is someone you don't know, and
you have four others that are, you know, like
young chefs that one specific day they can cut
a finger off because they did a mistake or something.
And you're running this restaurant. I want to
go more deeper into how many covers or do you
think it's necessary to start playing around
with dish creation or these kind of things? Because
my next question would be, Soleil, let's define
a menu. Let's actually think about, we already
like on the first episode of this series, you
already started with something that was like
a... a charcoal grilled squab with wild plums
fermented wild plums as a side and i could imagine
some kind of tuber into that and that would be
like a game dish okay like but how does that
fit that's actually sounds like something fine
danish maybe but you were talking about something
more casual, like in the style of St. John, but
on your own terms. So let's build dishes. Like,
how do you build a menu? You said no tasting
menu, so it's an a la carte. How do you structure
an a la carte? Okay, I have three chefs, including
me. Yes. Okay, easy. So from that, going from
that, already we have to open five days a week.
right i think the minimum for me in a restaurant
that i want to curate there are there are two
sections that i need basically or three sections
that i need the lowest amount of sections of
three sections so we're talking with very limited
resources here right so that would be like starters
grill and dessert something like that or exactly
that you have a raw section starter section right
starter raw whatever you know takes care of salads
pickles crudos like raw fish dishes you know
whatever maybe some terrines maybe some fried
stuff you know if you have a fryer somewhere
you know can i do quick quick fried then main
courses right grill section a grill can take
care of so much right a grill can take care of
your meats of your fish of your seafood of vegetables
can be the hard piece of a kitchen right and
then desserts desserts I would put, in this scenario,
I would put two chefs on starters, as in, you
know, raw, whatever, and one chef on grill. One
of the chefs from the starter section has to
do pars. So there's pars and plates on the starter
section. So one is like a tourneur, right? Like
this, we have five days of the week covered,
right? Five days grill, five days raw, five days
pars. Very, very risky because if one of the
chefs wants to take a vacation, it's kind of
impossible. Or if he sneezes a day, okay, everything,
the whole house of cards falls apart. It all
falls down. So, okay, then we have that framework
already. So that means like, what do I like salad
-wise or like starter -wise, right? I like salads.
I think good made salads are... something rare
right so if we're talking about chile i've never
been to chile i don't know what ingredients they
have in chile but i would look what they have
right do i maybe want to reinvent like like in
mexico you know they had calites and i was like
man this is so cool calites how would you describe
calites you know i don't know calites they're
these little like very like meaty greens okay
it's a it's a leaf how beautiful yeah yeah and
like they have a super cool texture so it's kind
of like making a salad with that amazing you
know then i definitely want some some fried snacks
i definitely need some kind of croqueta because
i love croquetas right whatever you do with that
is like you know is there a local cheese is there
a local spice like can you make a twist with
that um raw fish or raw seafood right what's
local do they have nice prawns that you can and
then it's sort of like well maybe do they have
what do they have do they have some sort of sort
of like acidic fruit or citrus that you can make
like an aguachile with um do i have really fatty
fish that you can make a tataki with like those
kind of things right you base it on the ingredients
and on what i like so i i before you go on i
had also a question like like so far you're talking
about like an ingredient driven dish design approach?
Would you also, because at the very beginning
you said reinvent, would you also take traditional
dishes and do a twist on them? Would you play
that game? Are you afraid of bastardization?
No, not at all. I think that's great. I think
as we've said many times, I think if it comes
from a place of genuine appreciation, curiosity
and interest in the local culture, then I think
it's great. As long as you don't step on any
toes and you take something and say, this is
shit, I'm going to make it better, I'm going
to show you what it's like a la Richard Hart,
then I think it's okay. There's a dish I thought
it was very cool when I was in Bolivia from Camila
Zeitler. It was, because it was very thoughtful,
you know, and the rule, the constraint of this
restaurant was to cook only with stuff that grows
within the borders of the country. It was also
like, kind of like a, I don't want to use the
word political, but, you know, like an approach
on how to develop the economy of the country
through food and and hospitality right like so
the idea was not even the drinks nothing everything
is local right like so there is no sea and and
um river seafood river food like river fish basically
doesn't work that well for ceviche it works well
for other things but but not necessarily for
ceviche it's not i mean the difference is huge
But a lot of ceviches consumed in Bolivia. You
know, culturally, they're near Chile and Peru,
and, you know, like, ceviches consumed a lot.
Yeah. So she did a dish that was a chicharrón
ceviche. You know, like, you would use the marinade
of a ceviche, but you would pimp it with chicken
you, okay? And then there's chicharrones in it.
So it was a chicharrón ceviche. And it's something
that I've noticed. Yet at the same time, chicharrón
is something completely, deeply rooted in the
culture. You know, and you took two things that
are already in the culture, you put them together
in a new way. I think that was like a very, very
cool dish. And it was, you know, like a bar food.
That's something you would have at the bar with
a beer at the bar of the restaurant. Sometimes
it was also like a starter. But I thought that
was a very, very cool dish. Yeah, see, I think
that's a super cool idea. And it's like that,
you know, you play on local things. I think a
lot of people really appreciate it also, you
know. Because also, like, I think you can't lose
your audience from your creation process, you
know, like, and if you take something that clicks
on them like this, you take two things that clicks
on them, and you put it like in a completely
different way. I was on a creative exercise in
Japan with Furukan. He gave them something to
taste, like it was something to, like a stimulant
to make them think different. So they all tasted
and they all were like completely, it was like
a... I will say a cafe latte, right? Like they
all tasted it and they were all like with this
what the fuck expression. Like I know what this
is, but I don't know what this is. What is this?
What is this? I don't get it, but I do get it,
right? It was coffee with miso, okay? So they
were being completely mindfucked. Like, I don't
know what's going on, but the... So two familiar
flavors in a new and different way and something
that clicks. And also this effect that once you
explain it, everybody says, ah, you know, like
when you say, yeah, there's blue cheese in the
cheesecake and everybody goes like, of course
there is, you know, but now I get it, you know,
like, and I think that's also like a very...
cool effect or something to play around oh yeah
100 and it's like it's also a way of just like
exploring and testing out because like if you
if you're in a country that's not necessarily
your own or even if you are in in your own country
you know you're trying things that um that are
sort of new to you it's also a way of of understanding
it more right you're approaching something with
your own mindset and you're delving into that
like if you've never eaten raw fish before right
or um and maybe you have a different reference
you know you maybe you'll slice some raw salmon
you make like a little mustard dressing you know
because that's what you're used to and you put
it around and you eat it and you're kind of like
okay i see and And you're involving yourself
with this thing that you don't know. And at the
end of the day, right, cooking is an endless
stream of curiosity, ideally, right? So I think
that's very beneficial. Like you say, like, it's
a win -win situation because you're involving
yourself with something new, you're learning,
you're testing something. But at the same time,
you're tapping into something that, you know,
the people who are from that place like, right?
Phil, do you recommend podcasts to your friends?
All the time. The best way of showing friends
that you care is recommending a great podcast
to listen to. I agree. If you're listening right
now, you should show your love by recommending
our show to all your best friends. It will make
them happy. It will make us happy. PopLock Food
Talks. Tell your friends. It will make the world
a better place. So in the first episode of this
series, I asked you what was value for you, and
you said flavor reigns supreme for you. But if
we ask what is flavor, and the intrinsic answer
to that question is that you taste as much with
your tongue as you do with your brain. do you
put that into the equation? Because I was mentioning
here a few examples of using stuff that is familiar
for your specific audience, like the chicharrón
or the coffee miso example. I also recently was
having a conversation with John Reggefalk, and
I asked him, like, if you have to, let's say,
Paraguayan cuisine, if you have to figure out
what Paraguayan cuisine is, where do you start?
And he says... Well, first of all, I would travel
to Paraguay and I would eat a lot in places and
not necessarily fine dining places because at
the end of the day, fine dining is already showcasing
things that are rooted in the minds of the people.
I would actually go to the small places or the
grandmothers and eat there. Of course. Because
he said, and I thought this was very interesting,
there you will see things that are implicit.
that are not written in cookbooks. You know,
just thinking out loud and saying a silly example,
imagine there's a place where you've seen cilantro.
raw all your life and then you come somewhere
and they cook cilantro for hours and you have
this great thing that generates like a completely
different flavor profile and that's something
that they relate to and reminds them of their
grandmothers right like absolutely and then if
you know that if you have the here you're again
playing like a detective and you find like ah
there's something that the people relates to
and using that and in let's say in a completely
different setting in a fine dining setting where
you generate just to make a silly example again
some drops of the same flavor of that overcooked
cilantro that makes click You're in a completely
different level if you're putting that into the
equations of what you're playing. I also remember
Enrique Limardo. He's a Venezuelan chef that
has many restaurants in Washington, D .C. and
Baltimore. And I remember eating that food and
it reminds me of kind of like the fine dining
scene in Caracas where I grew up and where he's
also from, but not quite because the... kind
of like the approach because it's a very cosmopolitan
city. Cosmopolitan in the sense that people will
look for influences in Europe and in the United
States and bring those things to the fine dining
scene and that's something very common there.
What I saw there was like a very Latin American
food but with a completely different approach.
And I asked him like, how would you define your
food? And he said like... I wouldn't know what
it is because it's not Venezuelan, it is Latin
American, but it's also like from the United
States. But something he said that I thought
it was very interesting is that he tried all
the restaurants in the city. to understand how
the palate works there. That's also a way to
understand how people taste, what people like,
what are the levels of acidity or of umami or
of salt or of many things that are in a specific
culture. Yeah, for sure. I mean, this is also
something interesting. I've seen it a lot of
times, people hating on other restaurants, where
it's kind of like... chefs that open a restaurant
somewhere and they go to eat at the popular restaurants
right and they go there and they go here and
they're sort of like ah this is shit that is
shit and you can be sort of like well maybe you
don't like it but they're full like they're full
every day so people obviously like it so you
can hate it as much as you want but people love
it right and you should you should keep that
in mind and you should learn something like why
why is it full like what what where does people
find value here because there you have like a
very interesting insight to apply on your own
business and if you're only you know like looking
at from a hate perspective like oh look this
shit food and they're full well that's your problem
you know that's so lazy and that's so easy to
have that sort of thing and it's like it's I
don't know. It's much nicer and much more beneficial
to you when you start trying to find value in
everything. But yeah, to go back to this question
of sort of like, okay, what is taste? What is
flavor? What makes something flavorful? That's
so complex. Like you said, the example that you
made with different associations that people
have to something. It goes so far and wide. And
I keep... finding things in just that topic that
are very subtle very very subtle and often very
hard to pinpoint of course we can say freshly
cooked rice to somebody from Japan is going to
evoke something different than to me or the smell
of masa that we talked about not too long ago
you know to somebody from Mexico if they smell
masa somewhere right that's very very subtle
but I think like for me flavor and also you know
Going back to what we were talking about, the
value and this idea of doing something good for
somebody, having something that nurtures them,
right? In experience, but maybe also just in
what they consume. I thought that for me, an
eye -opening moment was when I read Dan Barber's
book, The Third Plate, and he related the nutrition
and the freshness. of a vegetable to its deliciousness
you know the more nutritious the more delicious
and to me that made so much sense because when
you've ever experienced going to a garden and
you know like i remember when that's one of the
main things that i remember from being in margot
michael hopfman getting a celeriac from the ground
not the like big fat ones that you know from
the supermarket but like a little knobby one
and he cut it open and he was like smell this
and it was like on steroids you know and you
were it was dense you know like really dense
not not like a sponge like it was really compact
yeah exactly and um and what reinforced that
experience was one time i am sure i told the
story before but it's still to this day uh one
of the most impactful food experiences i've had
is working in that garden in the summer, super
hot, sweating my balls off. And at some point
wanting to make a quick lunch with another apprentice
who I was there with. And so we started picking
a salad and we threw in everything, edible flowers,
herbs, whatever, you know. And this salad, every
single bite of this freshly picked, well -grown
food. was like a smack in the face, full of juice
and taste and minerals and just full on substance.
And I think that when we talk about ingredient
focused cooking, that that is a big part that,
you know, cooking fresh is like, why is that
good? You know, why is it good? It is just the
fact that if you have a strawberry that you pick
from the ground, you put it in your mouth, it's
still warm from the sun. Whether you pick it,
you put it in a box, you drive it to the restaurant,
put it on a plate and give it to somebody. It's
not going to taste as good. It might still be
a very, very good strawberry, but it's different.
And chasing that high is... That is still incredibly
good. But we're talking about putting it in a
fridge for weeks and then in a soup. You know,
like the value chain is much longer. You know,
like apples are... month ahead from from three
to bite there are months of difference like usually
more than 10 months for from three to bite you
know like that's crazy absolutely yeah and this
is kind of like you know some some chefs they
chase something different right but like for
me this has always been like almost a it's such
a such a noble pursuit to try and source good
ingredients and just transform them slightly
to bring them onto the plate like so that you
can to embezzle them a little bit you know just
to make them you know a little bit here a little
bit there you put them into like a little framework
and you serve them so which brings me also to
an interesting question In this framework that
we're working on, just to recap, where there
are like five phases, it's nonlinear, but it
would be resources, technique, transformation,
flavor, and value. In that, there is technique
and transformation, one next to the other. And
my question would be, when do you apply technique?
to transform something and when do you prefer
leave something untouched and how to play around
with that because for example as you say if you
have like a a beautiful strawberry, maybe you
don't want to do anything with it. But you can
also do an incredibly nice vinegar out of it.
You ferment it and first you make like a wine
and then you make a vinegar out of it or other
things, you know, like or a kombucha or whatever.
What's your decision process to that? Would you,
for example, leave if you could? If you had like
an hypothetical dream restaurant, would you leave
everything untouched and maybe just grilled a
few things? Or not at all? Or there are things
that you definitely would process? I think that
almost everything is an applied technique and
a transformation. I think as soon as you pluck,
let's keep the example of the strawberry, right?
I think as soon as you pluck something. You've
transformed it. You started a timer, right? Yeah,
and that's already technique and science. The
moment you take an apple from a tree, that's
food science already happening. Absolutely, yeah.
If you now take the strawberry and you decide
to not do anything with it, just leave it whole
and put it on the plate, that's a choice, right?
That is a choice that you are making. to cut
it in half or dice it really fine or smoosh it
or just leave it whole. That's a choice. That's
already also a technique, right? And I think
that what you're saying is sort of like, okay,
where do you, I think it's like the idea of sort
of like, how much can I take away? You know,
if we can leave the strawberry as it is, if it's
good enough as it is, you can't do anything to
it. Amazing, right? If you have a beautiful turbot.
You know, how much can you take away? You have
a turbot, you have salt, you have charcoal. That's
already very little, right? Then a pan and a
stove and some oil and this and an oven and like
whatever. How can you, with the shortest way,
get the best out of the product? I think that's
the way. Okay. And now I want to continue with
the example of the turbo because I think it's
interesting. You have a turbo, you grill it,
as you said. uh what do you build around it um
do you add a sauce do you add a salad do you
add a puree what and why like how do you build
around it yeah i mean that again it depends really
like where you are right and like what you what
your idea is like you want to have it to be shared
do you want to like then take the fillets off
and have it like as a as an individual main course
um and i think you should always build around
like what's best right so if we want to we want
flavor So we want things that are in the prime
of their existence. So in spring, it's going
to be, you know, little shoots and, you know,
blossoms and, you know, sprouting herbs. In summer,
it's going to be plentiful salads, you know,
vegetables, etc. In autumn, you know, the vegetables
change. And in winter, you know, root vegetables
and preserves. Like, obviously, like you have...
a sort of storytelling but also you're limiting
yourself to have the things that are in the prime
of their existence when they're at the very peak
of their ripeness and the peak as we discussed
before you know nutrition and nutritional value
means deliciousness so this sounds very like
you know nutritional and like dietitiany but
you are basically just choosing whatever is the
tastiest It's the tastiest. There's a reason
why you should only eat strawberries at a certain
time. Because when you eat them in December,
they just taste like fucking wood, right? When
you eat a salad in the middle of summer, when
it's just cut from the ground, when was the last
time you thought about the flavor of a salad,
you know? For us, often salad is just a vehicle
for the dressing, no? But salad that is well
-grown and freshly cut has a flavor. So it's
basically almost like making your life easier.
You're choosing the most delicious things. At
the same time, it's interesting because you're
moving through the year. And we as people, we
just have an intrinsic connection to nature,
just as we have an intrinsic connection to things
being grilled over fire. So you're already building
on things that you know we have a connection
to that just feels right and feels good. Hey,
Phil, have you subscribed to our newsletter yet?
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of Phil's grandmother's secrets. Something I
wanted to go into, sauces. Like, how do you design
a fish sauce, for example? Butter -based sauce.
What are the layers that you build on a sauce?
Do you use, I don't know, agarum as a base, and
then you mount it with butter, and that's it?
Just two elements, or you add some acidity to
it? For example, here, the... The sauce applied
to also Basque cuisine is very minimalistic.
But here, the sauce that you make, sauce or kind
of like an emulsion -y kind of stuff that you
put on top of grilled fish, it is four ingredients.
It is olive oil, garlic, chili, and vinegar.
Emulsified, warm, and that's it. And you don't
need anything else, really. But it's also nice,
you know, to have like... A sauce that makes
you travel, you know, that makes you go somewhere
else. And you get that with flavor, like with
deep, intense and thoughtful flavors. Was there
a design process around that? This is difficult
to answer for me, right? Because food is... There
are many things that we can talk about and many
logical... deviations and approaches and ideas
that make sense right like we can talk about
acid cutting through fat or you know those sorts
of things but i think at the end of the day food
is just emotional to a level that is almost beyond
explanation i think that the best cooking and
the best dishes and the best chefs also it happens
when people feel right so and this is why it's
for me it's kind of difficult to talk i can go
into like about my personal approach because
i don't approach something in a logical way i
look at something and i i love food i love eating
and i love cooking and i just kind of like i
i I creep forward. I think to myself, what do
I want? What would I like? For example, talking
about fish sauces, right? We talk about a red
mullet. You have a beautiful red mullet and you're
like, I love red mullet. Why do I like red mullet?
Because it has this particular kind of flavor.
It has the flaky flesh. It has the orange oil.
It's a little bit fatty. It's very delicate.
And you're kind of like, well, what would I like
to eat with it? Would I like something super
heavy and like... you know double cream boiled
down maybe maybe not do i want something fresher
do i want to lift it up do i want something summery
it's it's more it's not really a logical path
it's more like an emotion right what do i feel
what direction feels good to me and then you
explore that and once you have a certain i think
it's important to Why is it important to have
a technical foundation of ability? If you know
how to make all the mother sauces and this and
that and blah, you know how to make a jus, it's
because you can free your mind. You have this
technical ability and you can step away from
this very tight framework and you can apply it
to everything. You can make a fish sauce out
of... fermented tomato water right and you're
sort of like i have sweetness i have acidity
i add some fat you know maybe i have like a nice
oil that i made out of a herb or just a nice
olive oil or whatever and you make a sauce out
of that that gives you the same aspects of you
know maybe a classic sauce but using different
things right so you you're making something that's
more interesting and more unknown um because
you understand what you're after. You understand
the foundation of what you're working with. Right.
Does that make sense? Absolutely. Yeah. So, um,
and I, by the way, I think that would be like
an amazing sauce, just like, like the, uh, fermented,
uh, water from cherry tomatoes and some, let's
say basil oil. That's it. There's your sauce,
you know, like it doesn't even have to be thick.
It can be like a little broth around the fish
and that would be a beautiful dish for sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I took that
as an example because I've done that a couple
of times. Also with different things. I used
that as a sauce for cioletta at one point. And
it was amazing. You know, fatty grilled cioletta
with this like tomato flavor. And again, it's
sort of like you have the fat of the cioletta,
you have the roastiness, you have the meat juices,
and then you have this like sharp umami acidity.
of lightly warmed thick tomato sauce, but completely
clear. And if you kind of understand how things
work, it's the same with fermentation and emulsions,
and you sort of understand how things work in
their essence, then you can play around with
that. I think that's when you kind of move to
a new level of cooking. Also something I thought
was very interesting about what you said. And
so I've engaged in many creative processes, not
only cooking. Actually, cooking is the less that
I'm engaged right now. But in other things where
actually my search is to go for the non -obvious,
right? And I think that's one of the definitions
of innovation. is something that has an industrial
application and is non -obvious even for the
experts. I think that's actually the definition
for something that can be patentable on the industry.
Somebody shows up, makes something that has a
patent, and everybody goes like, oh, we never
thought about it. But we could have. We have
the resources. We could have thought about it,
but nobody ever thought about it before. So in
the airport today, you have like suitcases with
wheels, right? But then if you see the... And
how old are wheels? Maybe as old as civilization
itself. But if you see the pictures of when the
first astronauts went to the moon, they were
walking into the rockets to be launched, and
they were carrying their suitcases in their hand.
So there were suitcases and wheels there all
the time, but nobody thought about putting the
two things together. And actually, as humans,
we landed in the moon first before getting into
that. And those things are finding two things
that are there for you to see. But there was
also this quote about innovation, that innovation
is seeing what nobody else sees, right? And in
the kitchen, you have so many resources and so
many things that are usually, or I will say...
traditionally thrown away, like the oil of your
can of anchovies or the brine of your pickled
cucumbers. There are so many things that you
take the cucumbers and you throw the water away.
You take the anchovies, you throw the oil away.
There are so many resources that you could actually
put those things together and there you have
something. Like anchovy oil and cucumber brine,
that's addressing already. And looking for those
things and figuring out how to apply them and
use them and on top of what, I think that's very,
very interesting.