Hi, everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks,
the show where we talk food and kitchens from
a cook's point of view. We're recording from
a place where nothing starts with technique.
It starts with what you choose to notice. My
name is Eric De Bono, and I'm here with my man,
Phil Rubin. Neither of us is sure where creativity
actually begins, but both of us trying to get
closer to it. Today is not really about cooking.
It's about investigation. Because before you
cook anything, you decide what's worth cooking.
And the question is simple. Are you creating
or just executing what you already know? But
first... Okay, so we're talking about creativity.
You know, I started the coordination of this
network at BCC, which you're part of, the Sheds
Community for Innovation. It's an online community.
The idea is I will be dynamizing some activities.
There will be an in -person event in May. And
we're also programming some online events. The
content is just yet to be decided. To give the
whole thing a little bit of structure and to
define which are the topics and how to, because
at the end of the day, the aim of this initiative
is to push innovation forward. So where do you
start? How do you innovate? And also, this is
about technique and creativity because, of course,
you can innovate in business aspects, human resource
aspects, and many other things. But this specific
is about technique and, yeah, finding new approaches
to cooking and so on. So we made like this infographic,
which was first published in Gastronomia. 360,
which is the newspaper at BCC, like the online
magazine, so to say. Unfortunately, only in Spanish.
But yeah, the English version is also ready.
And we made like this five phases of, so to say,
of the cooking process. Or just to put it in
an order, because at the end of the day, these
things are loops that go back and forth. So it
would start with resources. You know, geography,
your ecosystem, the biodiversity around you,
seasonality, suppliers, all of that. The next
logical template would be technique. What technique
you apply to those resources, which tools do
you have available, which generates transformation.
So this product turns into something else, if
it is the case, because sometimes you don't transform
anything, you just put salt on it. And then you
get into this loop of flavor and transformation
where you taste, retry, retest, and then taste
again until you generate value. And I wanted
to go through this with this if you're up to
it. Absolutely. Of course. Let's make a mental
exercise. You have to open a restaurant, let's
say, in South Chile in a little village which
has a lot of nature, surroundings, and so on.
And as I said, resources. Resources is about
the geography, the ecosystem, the network of
relationships with people in the place that you're
going to work. So what would you do there? Because
would you be trying to discover new ingredients
or just selecting from suppliers? What would
be something for you that would be worth building
around before you have any idea what to do with
it? It's an interesting topic. It's very personal,
right? So like for each person, it's going to
be different, you know? So I can talk from like
my point of view, like what I would do, but that's
obviously like very different. It's very, very
individual. I think the key points for this topic
is limitations, right? Limitations in when you
hear the word, it seems like something negative,
right? Like that's like something that's limiting
you. Yeah, constraints, right? Constraints, yeah.
I think a key element in design are constraints.
You need to define your constraints at the very
beginning. 100%. Otherwise, it's convoluted.
It's just a mix of everything. It's never good,
you know? Never, ever good. Limitations, they
give you a certain framework to work in. It gives
it a perspective, right? So if I open a restaurant
in Chile, right? There are limitations that are
thrust upon me by my environment and there are
limitations that I set myself, right? So for
example, maybe I worked in Europe my entire life
and I go to Chile and I'm sort of like, well,
I don't have the ingredients, not all of the
ingredients available to me anymore. I'm used
to working with this French butter that's really,
really nice. Can't get it. So that's a limitation,
right? So I need to find a different way. um
is it important for me to only work with local
suppliers but do i not care about that right
that's another limitation it's like do i want
to explore the local produce right and then it's
kind of like you know through your own experience
and your own style that you develop over a certain
time you put yourself in a in a um in a niche
you don't cook everything at the same time right
These are all limitations that kind of like narrow
everything down further and further and further
until they define what's going to happen, right?
So for example, me, if I was to open a restaurant
in Chile, I would look at local produce first
of all. And I would look at the seasonality of
the place. I would get in contact with the local
suppliers because I've always done it like this.
For me, this is like a personal thing that like
I like to base things on produce. I like to get,
first of all, the best quality produce and then
think, okay, how can I showcase this produce
the best sort of way? Obviously, I have techniques
and styles that I like, that I use, you know,
that I've accumulated over my years of cooking.
But that's where I start, right? For somebody
else, that might not be a thing. Like for somebody
else, maybe they're kind of like, there's plenty
of restaurants that say, we don't care about
the quality of the ingredients, especially in
fine dining, you know? Especially in fine dining.
Yeah, which is a crazy thing to talk about, right?
That's where I would start. I wanted to go back
to something you mentioned because I think for
me that's the soul of a very good restaurant
is establishing relationship with producers and
getting to know them and go to the actual place
and talk to them and understand them and their
problems and needs and challenges and start a
genuinely interested collaboration. Yeah. What
can you share about your experiences doing this
in the past? I think it's really great because
like, for example, take when I was running Chateau
Royal here in Berlin. When I arrived, they got
all their ingredients from a very big supplier
that just does like Großhunde, you know. They
do everything, but they don't specialize in anything,
but they do big quantities, cheap prices. You
can basically ask them for anything, they'll
get it for you. Good customer service, really
good customer service. I mean, in a city, I think
it's key to also have those kind of suppliers
because you will need whatever, you know, plastic
foil or toilet paper, you know. How can you get
it all from one of those suppliers? Yeah, I established
also with them a really good relationship. I
had one person that I would talk to and if shit
goes wrong, you know, we had an operation, seven
-day operation, breakfast, lunch, dinner, seven
days a week. You need somebody to talk to, to
work with, right? That like you say like, hey,
I'm in the shit with this. He pulled me out of
the shit plenty of times. I called him. I was
like, I'm in the shit with this. Can you help
me out? And he'd be like, like, I'll come by
myself. I'll load it into my car and I'll come
by myself. Fucking great guy. But yeah, like
other suppliers, you know, for example, I then,
but I was like, look, I'm not going to order
fish from you guys because it's not great. You
know, I was like, okay, who do I want to work
with? And then I heard about this company. that's
um it was called frisch gefischt which means
freshly fished right and they would only sell
fish from selected fishermen that do sustainable
fishing practices and i contacted them and i
was like hey look um i i want to work with you
guys because i i like what you do and as far
as i am able to i want to support you and only
get sustainable fish And I told him, listen,
I don't care what fish I get. If I tell you,
hey, I want sea bass, you know, if you one week
get in sea bass and it's like medium quality,
I'd rather you bring me what's best. I used to
work like that with gardeners also. I used to
say like, look, just bring me whatever is at
the very top of its season. I'll make it work,
you know. It's like for them, it's cool, you
know, because they're like they're very flexible.
They don't have to make things happen the way
that you want them to happen. But for you, it's
also good because you like if you're flexible
as a chef and you're not like, oh, this is my
menu for the year. That's done. You know, I'm
very flexible. I can cook. I can cook anything.
I can change the menu every single fucking day.
No problem. You know, but what I receive is the
top, top, top quality. So 50 % of my work is
already done for me. I have to do very limited.
Or more than 50. I have to do very little intervention
to get these products onto a plate. Sometimes
it's just taking them, cleaning them, maybe portioning
them and just putting them on the plate. And
it's fucking beautiful. I love working like that.
Unfortunately, this is a very romantic way of
working and it's not possible for a lot of people
just because of location or sheer necessity.
um or volume you know but it's a very nice way
of working also understanding the producers i
think it's key you know like um i found this
uh farmer in the market of san martin here in
san sebastian who was selling this pearl onion
size brussels sprouts like micro brussels sprouts
beautiful and i bought them a couple of times
and i was using it and the last time i went i
was determined to buy a good batch To make like
a kimchi out of that, to make like this. Amazing.
And I arrive and the guy says, no, they're gone.
And I was like, well, what do you mean they're
gone? They're out of season? No, no, no. They
will never be back. Like I, I killed the plant
and throw it to the, you know, and started planting
something else. You know, this is also a thing
with small producers. They have this crop rotations,
things. Sometimes they're just. testing produce
and see if it works or if it's worth or not so
what i would say is like for me the lesson was
if you see something beautiful uh get it all
for sure for sure but that's also kind of like
the the cool thing about it right so um i was
um when was it Monday evening, I was, cause I'm
at the moment in Berlin, right? Cause kind of
passing through. And I had dinner with a good
friend of mine, Olya, who was a very traveled
chef. She used to work for our mass and stuff
like that. Like very cool. And now she's a fermentation
expert, like works academically and stuff like
that. She made this amazing bergamot gelato at
home. And then we like garnished it with like
these little flowers that taste like honey, you
know? And we were talking about this like moment.
right now in spring where all the blossoms are
coming up you know and i was saying it doesn't
matter how many times that happens how many times
you see it it's always magical it's always a
magical moment and she said like yeah because
it's um like it's a thermal like it'll be gone
and you know it's going to be gone in a couple
of days and that's a kind of the same thing when
you work like that with produce you know when
you have something like for example gisantes
de lagrima If you had them all year round, it
wouldn't be nearly as special as when you have
them in this tiny window where they're so extremely
beautiful and perfect size and tender and full
of juice and taste. That is what makes things
special. Yeah, it's also the excitement of having
that proud desire. The season is arriving. It's
there. You know, there is a moment when the season
reaches its peak and then it's gone. And it's
a very beautiful way of celebrating something.
And it's, you know, like talking earlier about
this like adaptability mindset, you know, if
you are a chef and you're a professional and
you have the ability to be adaptable and you
don't, it's not like, oh, I'm really good at
cooking. steak and pan -fried fish and scallops
and blah, blah, blah. And I have like two salads
in my repertoire and whatever. But if you can
sort of like, if you have the confidence to say,
I can make something good out of anything, it
becomes super exciting because you open yourself
up to all these little tiny windows through the
season that you can celebrate. Like the, you
know, in Japan, they divide the seasons, like
they divide the year into like 40 something seasons,
like micro seasons. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Something
like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that idea,
you know, because if you've ever worked like
in a garden or you're close to nature, you see
it like things constantly pop up, pop, pop, pop,
pop, pop, pop. It's not like spring, summer,
autumn, winter. There's constantly things happening.
Microseasons. Just with one plant. Yeah, exactly.
And just with one plant, yeah. Like, for example,
a coriander plant. Like, it'll grow. You'll have
the, like, feathery, like, young leaves. Then
you have the, like, adult leaves. Then at some
point you have the seeds, right? And you have
the, if you want at some point to plant a stand,
you have the root also. And they're all completely
different. And the flowers, you know? So in just
one plant throughout the year, you have completely
different things. That is a celebration. And
like, also that is something talking about limitations
and creativity that pushes you, you know, if
you have, if you set yourself the limitation,
I'm going to work inside of these micro seasons.
You have to make something with the things that
you have available, but you also increase your,
your tool sets in the ingredients that you have
by like 10 times. Hey, Phil, have you subscribed
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What's a newsletter about, Eric? Every month
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grandmother's secrets. Also, talking about resources,
ecosystem, environment, and everything you just
said, what about gardening, having your own garden,
plantings, even foraging, looking around, even
investigating if there is like a whatever, like
a tree bark that can be turned into a spice or
I have no idea. Like, how would you approach
all the things in the way you usually work? I
mean, the cool thing, I'm obviously biased, you
know, like I am very passionate about the relation
of produce growing to using them in the kitchen.
I really believe in that because I very early
on realized that for me, the quality of a produce
is so essential, right? And when you have a garden,
you have control over many things, right? And
you have access to things that you cannot buy.
Money can't buy that, right? And that is invaluable
for me. You have, first of all, control over
what you plant, what varieties you plant, because
a radish is not a radish. There's hundreds of
varieties of radishes. Basil isn't basil. Mint
is not mint. There's so many different types
of mint that all taste different. In the garden
in Mugaritz, I worked in the garden for a while,
which is something... Every time I hear this
current discussion about how horrible it is to
be a stagiaire because you're going to be on
your knees cutting leaves, I was a couple of
weeks in the garden and I think it was like a
super valuable experience in my own experience.
But in any case, they had only basil. There were
like 12 varieties, you know, and there was a
salad where we have like a little leaf of each
and it was something like super baroque and elaborated.
For sure. I mean, I fought to get into the garden
in Mugaritz. They didn't want to put me in. It
took me, I think, half a year to get in. And
I asked them constantly. I was like, I want to
be in the garden, please. And finally, at some
point, they let me in. And it was a beautiful
experience. And we also, like the garden, we
were two in the garden. It was also common for
us to, every once in a while, we had to take
a run and go to the fields and grab some wild
herbs as well. It was part. part of your tasks
sometimes even even picking a car and going to
to find the oxalis you know like this the clover
like leaves i remember going to a specific place
where we knew there was going to be a lot of
those and we would hand pick them you know like
absolutely i mean it's it's those also like the
foraging you know it's it makes sense in in two
ways i think right obviously people, what I don't
like is that people, they overdo this whole foraging
thing and they slap it on their restaurant like
a label. And they, it's kind of almost like,
oh, you know, we want to fit into this vibe of
like Nordic, blah. But foraging has two very
strong things going for them. First of all, you're
picking something that you cannot buy. If you're
picking pine shoots, you can't order pine shoots,
right? Elderflowers, sometimes you can order
elderflowers, but like, phew. fucking expensive
you know stuff like wild garlic here in germany
so expensive you order wild garlic you know if
you go if you go and pick it yourself it's it's
free it's free of charge um but like again you
have control over when you pick something right
um and the second reason why foraging is so great
is that um you are picking something you're getting
a special ingredient at the very height of its
ripeness and when it's at the very height of
its ripeness it's full of nutrients it's full
of energy it's fresh as fuck and because of all
those things it's really really really delicious
all those things are what makes something delicious
be it a herb or a vegetable or whatever right
so that is very cool you know like as a restaurant
if you have like forage things You have something
that other restaurants simply cannot buy that
you went out to get with using your knowledge
and using your time. And also, if you do it the
right way, you will pick a certain amount and
you'll have the necessity to preserve that. And
preservation and fermentation for you as a chef
opens up a whole new pantry. of kitchen staples
of brines and pickles okay when you because i
got lost for a second because i was like what
the fuck are you suddenly talking about like
why do you put preservation and fermentation
in the same sentence you're you're talking about
preserving the produce not preserving the ecosystem
right no like for example you know like like
when i when i worked briefly in copenhagen like
we would do this a lot right we would like it
was like hip roast season So we would go out
and we would gather as many hip roses when they're
the most fragrant and we preserved them in vinegar
and like whatever, we'd freeze them, we put them
in alcohol or garlic capers. Man, like when I
was at Brewer in Copenhagen, we went to this
like grounds, this castle and this little forest.
I think there was like five of us and we each
picked, you know, those like 50 liter black bin
bags, the plastic bags. We each picked like a
full bin bag, full. And there was plenty left,
right? But it's kind of like they're here now.
They'll be gone in a week. They'll be done, right?
So you pick them. You pick as much as you can,
right? Without like fucking up the environment,
no? And then you preserve them. And through preserving
them, you have them like you can use them fresh.
You can, whatever you do, you can use them pickled.
You can use the pickle brine to add into dressings
or whatever, you know? you give yourself this
painter's palette that you can work with, that
you can draw from for the rest of the year. And
then, looping back to talking about creativity,
all of this ties in together. You create basically
like a framework that you're working with. as
a chef like me for example like i have certain
like base recipes that i always use and that
i've used for years certain sauce bases certain
you know condiments that then loop into different
recipes so you have like a repertoire right and
all these things start working together and then
you get a fresh product and you're like what
do i do preserving this but using my painter's
palette and from there you like you keep it going
Yeah, the interesting thing is that you can turn
everything into a condiment, you know, be it
an animal produce or wild produce or vegetables
or whatever you can do. You can turn it into
a spice, agarum, whatever, a strong condiment
base, all sorts of things. I recently got this
book. Have you seen it? This is a foraging guide
made by Basque Culinary Center. I will be there
next Sunday doing a foraging field trip with
my friend, Michelo Laisola, who knows very well
Igueldo. Let's see what we find. You know who
would be cool inviting to the show? Miles Irving.
He's like the British authority on foraging.
That would be a cool conversation. Absolutely.
I went to his place in the UK at one point. I
visited him and I had some amazing things like
I tried some amazing things. I think what he
does is really cool. He's a super interesting
guy. And I tried when I went to visit him. He's
so intelligent. He's so eloquent and so well
learned. And he's got so much knowledge that's
so, so valuable, I think. I remember I tried
this one thing, these like preserved plums. i
don't really exactly know how he preserved them
but he was sort of like yeah this is like a very
old simple way of preserving plums he got it
like from like an old recipe book and he preserves
them with the stone and he's like you have to
leave them for at least like two years and he
says what happens after two years is that the
like this pectin from the stone starts changing
the texture and the flavor of the plum meat And
when you tasted these plums, they tasted like
the inside of the stone with this very almondy,
marzipany flavor. You know, like cherry pits
when you crack them and you infuse them. And
the texture of the plums was like gummy bears.
And it was so good. I still remember it to this
day. It was over 10 years ago now that I went
to see him. It was incredible. And these sorts
of things, you know, you have that in your pantry.
And then you have like, you're sort of like,
oh, I have to, what did I get in? My meat supplier
or like my hunter brought me in pigeons or duck,
right? And you're sort of like, okay, cool. What
can I do with them? You got those plums in your
pantry from like two years ago. Fucking hell,
you got a dish already. You know, nicely roasted
piece of game. You make a nice like sauce out
of the bones, a condiment out of those plums,
maybe even just a piece of the plum on the side,
glazed in a little bit of jus. You're winning.
Incredible. Maybe you also had like a pigeon
garum also from last year. Exactly. You just
assemble everything together. That's the magic
thing about cooking with condiments. As you say,
if you have like an incredible pickled baby plums
or whatever, that's it. The main ingredient was
waiting. That was it. Yeah, absolutely. And that's
also, I think, the magic of foraging, for example.
I don't know what we will find next Sunday. But
like you say, you suddenly find some baby plums
or whatever, you know, and you figure out what
to do with those and you bring it out from there.
Which brings me to the, so far we've talked only
about resources. We have also touched a bit on
technique, but yeah, how do you approach technique?
At what point do you decide what to apply? For
example, you just mentioned you got a pigeon.
What techniques do apply to a pigeon and why?
Yeah, I think that's, again, like what the key
thing here is, again, limitations, right? You,
at some point, you decide for yourself what you
like, you know, and for the experience that you
have as a professional. um you acquire certain
skill sets and at some point you do specialize
in a way like for me it's kind of like when i
think about meat right for me straight away i
think about open fire cooking you know that's
something that i got super into at one point
i don't remember i think it was in in uh in the
best country the first time that i had this like
oh you know and since then i Like I did it more
and more and more. And I couldn't imagine opening
a restaurant that doesn't have a grill or like
a fireplace. Couldn't, makes no sense to me.
For me as a chef. Yeah. And then, you know, when
I think of fish, I, you know, I have a mix of
like very classical, like French training. And
I also spend a lot of time in Mexico and Japan.
Right. So I like raw dishes, but I also like.
vibrant dressings and like, so like you take
the bits and pieces that you like and they stick
with you and you explore them. You know, why
do you like them? Like why, do you remember the
first time that you ate a mole, a mole sauce?
Yes. Yes, yes. I do. It was actually in culinary
school. Oh yeah? For me, I don't know how it
was for you, but for me, it was a very emotional
experience. Like I ate it and I was like, okay,
this is delicious, but something else is like
so deep and like there's so much going on. And
I was kind of like, why do I like this so much?
And you start reflecting on it and then you start
maybe testing some things out and you build your
own palette. I really think these things are
hardwired. I mean, it's my intuition, and I think
I've read, I have the idea that I've read this
somewhere, but that relationship between open
fire, roasted meat, those smells trigger something
in your brain that connects you with your ancestors
for thousands of years. Something happens there
that you start salivate and, you know, and it's
like click, you know, like it's not not for a
reason. It's something. I mean, like we've been
doing that as humans for thousands of years,
right? And it's also a sign of that's safe to
eat, you know, like that combination of cooked
meat. Yeah, for sure. For sure. It's something
primal, you know, but like. Yeah, and I think
you set yourself limitations, you know, like
I like a certain thing, so like I'm going to
explore that because I know that if I want to
do everything, like I'm not going to. So I think
if you limit yourself with technique also, it
just makes sense, right? Some people will really
get into pasta. And they'll fully get into that
super technical understanding it, executing it
nicely because there's so much. And it's such
a simple thing, but it's so intricate, right?
Yeah, or a specific type of noodle soup somewhere
in Asia that there's someone that does only that
and has done it for decades, you know? Yeah,
and cooking is so infinite, you know? I mean,
like, even if you look at Europe and you say,
like, okay, like the way that a Spanish chef
would make a sauce, you know, it's not the same
as a... French chef would make a sauce, even
if we're talking about like a meat sauce, like
a suquette or something like that, you know?
I think it's so, so personal, but I think what
it all has in common is that you are putting
yourself certain limitations in which you can
explore your possibilities. And then there is
this loop of you apply technique, you transform
your produce, and then taste comes. How do you
approach this? Because is this loop of taste,
remake, if it wasn't, maybe it was one take,
you know, and that was it, and ready to go, especially
if you're working on a daily menu, you have one
shot, that's it. But let's say, like, you're
putting something in a menu that will be there
for a month. How do you approach that loop of
testing and tasting and testing again and tasting
again? Obviously, again, taste is very, very
subjective, right? I cook with the sole intention
of making something as delicious as possible.
That's the only thing that I care about. I care
about it looking good. I care about it being
aesthetically pleasing. I care about it being
interesting in a flavor combination, maybe surprising,
you know. After all, if somebody comes to a restaurant
that I'm cooking in, I don't want them to eat
something that they feel like they could have
made themselves at home. I think that's very
important that you have a certain level. But
at the end of the day, I think taste trumps everything.
It trumps any concept, any idea, any special
ingredients, any storytelling. You said taste
is very subjective. What do you look for in taste?
What is something tasty for you? Yeah. So that
changes, you know. Sometimes it comes down to,
when I say taste, I do include texture in it,
which does sound a little bit, but when I call
something tasty, texture plays a big role in
there also, right? Sometimes I'll have something
where it's very important for me that the seasoning
is spot on, the balance of the ingredients. salty
elements sweet elements sour elements you know
savory elements bitter elements that whatever
is in that dish that it's in a in a very good
balance right it has that like that golden golden
cut right but sometimes i will have a dish that
it's often vegetable dishes where i want the
seasoning to be a little bit more mellow because
i want the ingredient the taste of the ingredient
to come out So, for example, an asparagus dish,
a white asparagus dish, like this seasoned at
the moment, I will season less heavy, you know,
because I love the flavor of the white asparagus.
And that's something that I personally learned
in Japan. When you say seasoned, you're talking
just about salt, right? Or in general, condiments
and other stuff. General, you know, general.
If I baste something with brown butter, for me,
that's kind of a seasoning. If I glaze it with
the brown butter, you know. It is. But obviously
salt always plays a role, pretty much always.
Or something salty, something equivalent. Because
salt is just very tasty. But, you know, seasoning
is whatever you add to highlight an ingredient
for me, you know. Phil, do you recommend podcasts
to your friends? All the time. The best way of
showing friends that you care is recommending
a great podcast to listen to. I agree. If you're
listening right now, you should show your love
by recommending or show to all your best friends.
It will make them happy. It will make us happy.
PopLock Food Talks. Tell your friends. It will
make the world a better place. What's your set
of seasonings that you apply? Do you have, let's
say, salt? Do you have sour elements? What's
your standards? What things do you usually have
at hand to use? Do you add vinegar, for example,
to vegetables? I don't know. Yeah, I don't think
I have a set thing. Salt is always there, right?
I have, like, it really, really highly depends,
you know? I have certain bases. Like, for example,
I make this type of, like, um infused tamari
but like very light tamari um that i use for
a lot of bases of other sauces and other like
ingredients which is like a mixture of of you
know soy sauce and mirin that is then infused
with seaweed and um you know like a i just call
it tasty sauce because at some point i made it
like for one dish and um i liked it so much that
It ended up being in every recipe that I was
making, you know? So, but like, as like a base
and it's a very good, nice base, you know, and
I even started making like traditional French
sauces with it. Um, it just works really, really
well. No, I just kicked off my batch of four
different Garums. Uh, now that I got the, the
proteases, I wanted to check how they behave.
I had still some, uh, shelf stable. store -bought
koji that i bought in japan amazing so i make
him garum of cured anchovies iberico ham chuleta
and farm chicken holy shit that's that's amazing
man i think meat garum is fucking amazing like
we were using it here in in berlin um i would
like take some meat like uh whether it was beef
or like venison you know and like brush it with
meat garum let it cure for like a couple hours
and then like pat it dry and then just like brush
it and grill it and it would just give it this
like intense umami you know it's a perfect example
of like having something in your pantry where
it's kind of like okay you cook a piece of venison
and you just cook it like salt blah blah blah
i'll cook a piece of venison I've taken this
ingredient from my pantry and I used it as a
seasoning, as a condiment. It doesn't end up
in the final dish. I'll cook the piece of venison.
You tell me which one's better. I think that
this also applies to the drink world. There's
such an incredible difference. I will never remember
this place that I worked in, Bolivia, that the
bar, the drinks were so good because there was
no Coke. There was nothing. No industrial drinks.
All the bitters, all the mixers. There was lots
of kombuchas of different things. Lots of sparkling,
homemade sparkling drinks of different kinds.
And it also brings you to this whole universe
that is not constrained by Coca -Cola company.
uh or or the three brands that dominate the the
non -alcoholic drink world basically yeah absolutely
i think and this is again a constraint as you
say you know that like pushes creativity i think
that's super super good yeah but like circling
back to your question i think vinegar is a very
underused um seasoning component i remember when
we were at favikin um we had this these little
spray bottles that were filled with very clean,
high distilled vinegar, white vinegar, see -through,
right? The like sharpest, cleanest, no flavor,
just sharp. For one, we would use these spray
bottles to clean the surfaces and wipe the surfaces
with vinegar. But also we would use these spray
bottles to season dishes. So a tiny dust of clear
distilled vinegar on top of a dish can... elevate
things so intensely most notably we had this
dish on the menu it was fucking it was incredible
you would have fucking loved it it was so so
so good we would get these little lamb tongues
so like a beef tongue but from a lamb and we
would cook them very simply but not so simply
we would put them in a pot and boil them poach
them right until they're tender like you would
classically with a tongue then we would take
them out peel them right And then we would put
them in a pot with stock, beef stock, and reduce
the stock. And when the stock gets to a point
where it like caramelizes in the pot, we would
take a brush with some more stock, loosen this
caramel and brush it onto the lamb tongues. And
we would repeat that over like two hours until
they were basically like jellied over with this
reduced beef stock. Amazing. Together with that,
we were serving these like very lightly fermented
vegetables, you know, radishes, kohlrabis, you
know, shavings of vegetables, cabbages in a brine,
right? Brined vegetables. And so we'd have this
like dish with this like very fatty, meaty, soft
tongue, these like very bright, crunchy vegetables.
And at the very end, and this was key. We would
spray the tongue with vinegar and this intense,
meaty tongue with this bright vinegar punch.
It was incredible. And since then, I realized
how powerful a little bit of vinegar can be to
season things. Yeah, I think having a little
squeeze bottle with some sherry vinegar is a
super nice asset to have at hand. And whatever
you're doing, just like you say, it shouldn't...
taste vinegary it shouldn't be a gazpacho you
know it should have like just a hush that's it
yeah it really it really lifts it and it like
makes your it makes your tongue kind of open
up you know it's like like when you like eat
good sea salt you know your tongue goes like
you taste the minerality and that and a little
bit of vinegar is the same i think The last question,
because that would be the last phase. We stuck
a lot on resources, but the last phase is value.
How do you define value in a dish? What gives
value? Again, this is very subjective, and you
can say both as a chef and as a consumer, what
are you looking for there? Yeah, that is a very
good question, I think. And it's a very, very
important question. I think it's a question that
a lot of people should ask themselves and have
a really honest, hard, long look in the mirror.
As you say, it's very subjective. I can just
speak for myself. I think value in a dish that
I present to a customer should be the quality
of ingredients. As number one, you get... very
good quality you're not eating shit right you
get something good it's made with care and with
love and with the intention that you enjoy it
right somebody poured their knowledge and because
cooking is also very emotional their emotions
into something for you all right at hopefully
a level that is higher than yours right like
because i think My dad used to say this, right?
He was like, my dad used to say this thing. He
was sort of like, if I go to a restaurant, I
don't want to eat something that I could have
made at home. And when I was younger, I always
thought that was like very kind of like, oh,
you know, like whatever. But I think he's right.
You know, like if you do go somewhere and there's
a professional making you something, it should
be made in a way where it's apparent that it's
very skillful, right? You're paying for the skill,
but also. I think that you have a responsibility
to give the person coming to eat your food something
nourishing, whatever that may be. I'm not saying
it has to be healthy, right? It can be, but it
has to be soul nourishing. And I think that is
the magic that lies in the profession of a chef.
And I think that is the value that you're giving
somebody with your cooking. Because cooking can
just be the process of preparing food. But what
makes a chef a chef? That he can do that at a
very high level. But for us, why are we so passionate
about cooking? Because it's very magical and
it's very emotional. And ideally, you go somewhere
and somebody who's tried to delve into that magic,
who's felt that spark and made his professional
life about exploring that. And they're giving
you something and hopefully you can feel some
of that spark too. I think that is where the
value should lie.