WEBVTT 00:00:04.230 --> 00:00:07.290 Hi, everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks, 00:00:07.290 --> 00:00:09.269 the show where we talk food and kitchens from 00:00:09.269 --> 00:00:11.890 a cook's point of view. We're recording from 00:00:11.890 --> 00:00:13.910 a place where nothing starts with technique. 00:00:14.009 --> 00:00:17.429 It starts with what you choose to notice. My 00:00:17.429 --> 00:00:20.670 name is Eric De Bono, and I'm here with my man, 00:00:20.809 --> 00:00:24.550 Phil Rubin. Neither of us is sure where creativity 00:00:24.550 --> 00:00:27.670 actually begins, but both of us trying to get 00:00:27.670 --> 00:00:30.699 closer to it. Today is not really about cooking. 00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:33.479 It's about investigation. Because before you 00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:35.960 cook anything, you decide what's worth cooking. 00:00:36.259 --> 00:00:38.299 And the question is simple. Are you creating 00:00:38.299 --> 00:00:41.579 or just executing what you already know? But 00:00:41.579 --> 00:00:57.219 first... Okay, so we're talking about creativity. 00:00:58.060 --> 00:01:01.259 You know, I started the coordination of this 00:01:01.259 --> 00:01:04.599 network at BCC, which you're part of, the Sheds 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:09.780 Community for Innovation. It's an online community. 00:01:10.140 --> 00:01:14.939 The idea is I will be dynamizing some activities. 00:01:15.579 --> 00:01:19.290 There will be an in -person event in May. And 00:01:19.290 --> 00:01:22.549 we're also programming some online events. The 00:01:22.549 --> 00:01:25.689 content is just yet to be decided. To give the 00:01:25.689 --> 00:01:29.489 whole thing a little bit of structure and to 00:01:29.489 --> 00:01:32.489 define which are the topics and how to, because 00:01:32.489 --> 00:01:37.010 at the end of the day, the aim of this initiative 00:01:37.010 --> 00:01:42.599 is to push innovation forward. So where do you 00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:45.879 start? How do you innovate? And also, this is 00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:48.060 about technique and creativity because, of course, 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:51.959 you can innovate in business aspects, human resource 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:54.879 aspects, and many other things. But this specific 00:01:54.879 --> 00:02:00.500 is about technique and, yeah, finding new approaches 00:02:00.500 --> 00:02:05.680 to cooking and so on. So we made like this infographic, 00:02:05.780 --> 00:02:11.000 which was first published in Gastronomia. 360, 00:02:11.300 --> 00:02:14.460 which is the newspaper at BCC, like the online 00:02:14.460 --> 00:02:18.819 magazine, so to say. Unfortunately, only in Spanish. 00:02:18.939 --> 00:02:21.379 But yeah, the English version is also ready. 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:28.520 And we made like this five phases of, so to say, 00:02:28.580 --> 00:02:31.840 of the cooking process. Or just to put it in 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:33.419 an order, because at the end of the day, these 00:02:33.419 --> 00:02:36.460 things are loops that go back and forth. So it 00:02:36.460 --> 00:02:39.750 would start with resources. You know, geography, 00:02:40.189 --> 00:02:42.810 your ecosystem, the biodiversity around you, 00:02:42.969 --> 00:02:46.569 seasonality, suppliers, all of that. The next 00:02:46.569 --> 00:02:49.150 logical template would be technique. What technique 00:02:49.150 --> 00:02:53.849 you apply to those resources, which tools do 00:02:53.849 --> 00:02:56.789 you have available, which generates transformation. 00:02:57.030 --> 00:03:01.930 So this product turns into something else, if 00:03:01.930 --> 00:03:04.909 it is the case, because sometimes you don't transform 00:03:04.909 --> 00:03:07.580 anything, you just put salt on it. And then you 00:03:07.580 --> 00:03:09.900 get into this loop of flavor and transformation 00:03:09.900 --> 00:03:13.560 where you taste, retry, retest, and then taste 00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:17.580 again until you generate value. And I wanted 00:03:17.580 --> 00:03:20.379 to go through this with this if you're up to 00:03:20.379 --> 00:03:24.560 it. Absolutely. Of course. Let's make a mental 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:27.300 exercise. You have to open a restaurant, let's 00:03:27.300 --> 00:03:30.919 say, in South Chile in a little village which 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:34.120 has a lot of nature, surroundings, and so on. 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:37.919 And as I said, resources. Resources is about 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:43.180 the geography, the ecosystem, the network of 00:03:43.180 --> 00:03:48.479 relationships with people in the place that you're 00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:51.620 going to work. So what would you do there? Because 00:03:51.620 --> 00:03:53.659 would you be trying to discover new ingredients 00:03:53.659 --> 00:03:57.800 or just selecting from suppliers? What would 00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:00.840 be something for you that would be worth building 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:04.199 around before you have any idea what to do with 00:04:04.199 --> 00:04:07.759 it? It's an interesting topic. It's very personal, 00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:10.219 right? So like for each person, it's going to 00:04:10.219 --> 00:04:13.259 be different, you know? So I can talk from like 00:04:13.259 --> 00:04:15.479 my point of view, like what I would do, but that's 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:17.259 obviously like very different. It's very, very 00:04:17.259 --> 00:04:20.339 individual. I think the key points for this topic 00:04:20.339 --> 00:04:25.240 is limitations, right? Limitations in when you 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:28.680 hear the word, it seems like something negative, 00:04:28.860 --> 00:04:30.779 right? Like that's like something that's limiting 00:04:30.779 --> 00:04:34.449 you. Yeah, constraints, right? Constraints, yeah. 00:04:34.810 --> 00:04:38.889 I think a key element in design are constraints. 00:04:39.149 --> 00:04:41.850 You need to define your constraints at the very 00:04:41.850 --> 00:04:44.629 beginning. 100%. Otherwise, it's convoluted. 00:04:44.629 --> 00:04:48.610 It's just a mix of everything. It's never good, 00:04:48.730 --> 00:04:51.689 you know? Never, ever good. Limitations, they 00:04:51.689 --> 00:04:55.670 give you a certain framework to work in. It gives 00:04:55.670 --> 00:04:58.850 it a perspective, right? So if I open a restaurant 00:04:58.850 --> 00:05:01.759 in Chile, right? There are limitations that are 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:05.180 thrust upon me by my environment and there are 00:05:05.180 --> 00:05:06.879 limitations that I set myself, right? So for 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:12.980 example, maybe I worked in Europe my entire life 00:05:12.980 --> 00:05:15.879 and I go to Chile and I'm sort of like, well, 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:18.639 I don't have the ingredients, not all of the 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:20.899 ingredients available to me anymore. I'm used 00:05:20.899 --> 00:05:23.319 to working with this French butter that's really, 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:26.800 really nice. Can't get it. So that's a limitation, 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:29.589 right? So I need to find a different way. um 00:05:29.589 --> 00:05:32.009 is it important for me to only work with local 00:05:32.009 --> 00:05:34.709 suppliers but do i not care about that right 00:05:34.709 --> 00:05:36.870 that's another limitation it's like do i want 00:05:36.870 --> 00:05:40.029 to explore the local produce right and then it's 00:05:40.029 --> 00:05:42.810 kind of like you know through your own experience 00:05:42.810 --> 00:05:45.810 and your own style that you develop over a certain 00:05:45.810 --> 00:05:51.269 time you put yourself in a in a um in a niche 00:05:51.269 --> 00:05:54.009 you don't cook everything at the same time right 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:56.459 These are all limitations that kind of like narrow 00:05:56.459 --> 00:05:58.500 everything down further and further and further 00:05:58.500 --> 00:06:02.000 until they define what's going to happen, right? 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:04.699 So for example, me, if I was to open a restaurant 00:06:04.699 --> 00:06:07.279 in Chile, I would look at local produce first 00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:10.259 of all. And I would look at the seasonality of 00:06:10.259 --> 00:06:14.160 the place. I would get in contact with the local 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:16.779 suppliers because I've always done it like this. 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:18.639 For me, this is like a personal thing that like 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:22.180 I like to base things on produce. I like to get, 00:06:22.339 --> 00:06:24.879 first of all, the best quality produce and then 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:27.399 think, okay, how can I showcase this produce 00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:29.839 the best sort of way? Obviously, I have techniques 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:32.040 and styles that I like, that I use, you know, 00:06:32.060 --> 00:06:35.579 that I've accumulated over my years of cooking. 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:38.600 But that's where I start, right? For somebody 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:40.560 else, that might not be a thing. Like for somebody 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:42.759 else, maybe they're kind of like, there's plenty 00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:44.139 of restaurants that say, we don't care about 00:06:44.139 --> 00:06:45.980 the quality of the ingredients, especially in 00:06:45.980 --> 00:06:49.339 fine dining, you know? Especially in fine dining. 00:06:50.189 --> 00:06:52.569 Yeah, which is a crazy thing to talk about, right? 00:06:52.670 --> 00:06:56.089 That's where I would start. I wanted to go back 00:06:56.089 --> 00:06:59.569 to something you mentioned because I think for 00:06:59.569 --> 00:07:01.629 me that's the soul of a very good restaurant 00:07:01.629 --> 00:07:06.250 is establishing relationship with producers and 00:07:06.250 --> 00:07:08.829 getting to know them and go to the actual place 00:07:08.829 --> 00:07:11.350 and talk to them and understand them and their 00:07:11.350 --> 00:07:14.910 problems and needs and challenges and start a 00:07:14.910 --> 00:07:19.100 genuinely interested collaboration. Yeah. What 00:07:19.100 --> 00:07:21.420 can you share about your experiences doing this 00:07:21.420 --> 00:07:24.180 in the past? I think it's really great because 00:07:24.180 --> 00:07:28.519 like, for example, take when I was running Chateau 00:07:28.519 --> 00:07:32.300 Royal here in Berlin. When I arrived, they got 00:07:32.300 --> 00:07:36.920 all their ingredients from a very big supplier 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:40.639 that just does like Großhunde, you know. They 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:43.579 do everything, but they don't specialize in anything, 00:07:43.779 --> 00:07:46.759 but they do big quantities, cheap prices. You 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:48.279 can basically ask them for anything, they'll 00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:50.079 get it for you. Good customer service, really 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:52.240 good customer service. I mean, in a city, I think 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:54.660 it's key to also have those kind of suppliers 00:07:54.660 --> 00:07:57.600 because you will need whatever, you know, plastic 00:07:57.600 --> 00:08:00.779 foil or toilet paper, you know. How can you get 00:08:00.779 --> 00:08:03.879 it all from one of those suppliers? Yeah, I established 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:06.120 also with them a really good relationship. I 00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:08.980 had one person that I would talk to and if shit 00:08:08.980 --> 00:08:10.779 goes wrong, you know, we had an operation, seven 00:08:10.779 --> 00:08:12.959 -day operation, breakfast, lunch, dinner, seven 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:15.610 days a week. You need somebody to talk to, to 00:08:15.610 --> 00:08:18.050 work with, right? That like you say like, hey, 00:08:18.129 --> 00:08:19.949 I'm in the shit with this. He pulled me out of 00:08:19.949 --> 00:08:21.970 the shit plenty of times. I called him. I was 00:08:21.970 --> 00:08:24.569 like, I'm in the shit with this. Can you help 00:08:24.569 --> 00:08:26.649 me out? And he'd be like, like, I'll come by 00:08:26.649 --> 00:08:29.389 myself. I'll load it into my car and I'll come 00:08:29.389 --> 00:08:31.870 by myself. Fucking great guy. But yeah, like 00:08:31.870 --> 00:08:34.149 other suppliers, you know, for example, I then, 00:08:34.309 --> 00:08:35.929 but I was like, look, I'm not going to order 00:08:35.929 --> 00:08:38.990 fish from you guys because it's not great. You 00:08:38.990 --> 00:08:41.470 know, I was like, okay, who do I want to work 00:08:41.470 --> 00:08:44.789 with? And then I heard about this company. that's 00:08:44.789 --> 00:08:47.769 um it was called frisch gefischt which means 00:08:47.769 --> 00:08:50.350 freshly fished right and they would only sell 00:08:50.350 --> 00:08:56.009 fish from selected fishermen that do sustainable 00:08:56.009 --> 00:08:59.769 fishing practices and i contacted them and i 00:08:59.769 --> 00:09:03.330 was like hey look um i i want to work with you 00:09:03.330 --> 00:09:06.769 guys because i i like what you do and as far 00:09:06.769 --> 00:09:11.370 as i am able to i want to support you and only 00:09:11.370 --> 00:09:14.870 get sustainable fish And I told him, listen, 00:09:14.950 --> 00:09:18.750 I don't care what fish I get. If I tell you, 00:09:18.769 --> 00:09:21.950 hey, I want sea bass, you know, if you one week 00:09:21.950 --> 00:09:24.649 get in sea bass and it's like medium quality, 00:09:25.029 --> 00:09:30.149 I'd rather you bring me what's best. I used to 00:09:30.149 --> 00:09:31.990 work like that with gardeners also. I used to 00:09:31.990 --> 00:09:34.029 say like, look, just bring me whatever is at 00:09:34.029 --> 00:09:36.690 the very top of its season. I'll make it work, 00:09:36.809 --> 00:09:41.720 you know. It's like for them, it's cool, you 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:43.279 know, because they're like they're very flexible. 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:47.360 They don't have to make things happen the way 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:48.960 that you want them to happen. But for you, it's 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:51.399 also good because you like if you're flexible 00:09:51.399 --> 00:09:53.720 as a chef and you're not like, oh, this is my 00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:55.500 menu for the year. That's done. You know, I'm 00:09:55.500 --> 00:09:58.039 very flexible. I can cook. I can cook anything. 00:09:58.080 --> 00:09:59.659 I can change the menu every single fucking day. 00:09:59.720 --> 00:10:02.659 No problem. You know, but what I receive is the 00:10:02.659 --> 00:10:05.679 top, top, top quality. So 50 % of my work is 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:08.529 already done for me. I have to do very limited. 00:10:08.549 --> 00:10:13.210 Or more than 50. I have to do very little intervention 00:10:13.210 --> 00:10:16.169 to get these products onto a plate. Sometimes 00:10:16.169 --> 00:10:21.649 it's just taking them, cleaning them, maybe portioning 00:10:21.649 --> 00:10:24.309 them and just putting them on the plate. And 00:10:24.309 --> 00:10:26.850 it's fucking beautiful. I love working like that. 00:10:27.029 --> 00:10:30.769 Unfortunately, this is a very romantic way of 00:10:30.769 --> 00:10:32.990 working and it's not possible for a lot of people 00:10:32.990 --> 00:10:35.769 just because of location or sheer necessity. 00:10:36.490 --> 00:10:40.429 um or volume you know but it's a very nice way 00:10:40.429 --> 00:10:43.429 of working also understanding the producers i 00:10:43.429 --> 00:10:47.029 think it's key you know like um i found this 00:10:47.029 --> 00:10:51.309 uh farmer in the market of san martin here in 00:10:51.309 --> 00:10:53.870 san sebastian who was selling this pearl onion 00:10:53.870 --> 00:10:57.470 size brussels sprouts like micro brussels sprouts 00:10:57.470 --> 00:11:00.210 beautiful and i bought them a couple of times 00:11:00.210 --> 00:11:03.330 and i was using it and the last time i went i 00:11:03.330 --> 00:11:06.379 was determined to buy a good batch To make like 00:11:06.379 --> 00:11:08.740 a kimchi out of that, to make like this. Amazing. 00:11:08.860 --> 00:11:12.399 And I arrive and the guy says, no, they're gone. 00:11:12.840 --> 00:11:14.840 And I was like, well, what do you mean they're 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:17.679 gone? They're out of season? No, no, no. They 00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:20.960 will never be back. Like I, I killed the plant 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:24.360 and throw it to the, you know, and started planting 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:26.399 something else. You know, this is also a thing 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:28.860 with small producers. They have this crop rotations, 00:11:29.139 --> 00:11:33.789 things. Sometimes they're just. testing produce 00:11:33.789 --> 00:11:38.169 and see if it works or if it's worth or not so 00:11:38.169 --> 00:11:41.830 what i would say is like for me the lesson was 00:11:41.830 --> 00:11:45.789 if you see something beautiful uh get it all 00:11:45.789 --> 00:11:52.289 for sure for sure but that's also kind of like 00:11:52.289 --> 00:11:56.269 the the cool thing about it right so um i was 00:11:56.269 --> 00:12:00.490 um when was it Monday evening, I was, cause I'm 00:12:00.490 --> 00:12:02.169 at the moment in Berlin, right? Cause kind of 00:12:02.169 --> 00:12:04.830 passing through. And I had dinner with a good 00:12:04.830 --> 00:12:07.649 friend of mine, Olya, who was a very traveled 00:12:07.649 --> 00:12:10.649 chef. She used to work for our mass and stuff 00:12:10.649 --> 00:12:13.389 like that. Like very cool. And now she's a fermentation 00:12:13.389 --> 00:12:15.929 expert, like works academically and stuff like 00:12:15.929 --> 00:12:19.070 that. She made this amazing bergamot gelato at 00:12:19.070 --> 00:12:22.009 home. And then we like garnished it with like 00:12:22.009 --> 00:12:25.149 these little flowers that taste like honey, you 00:12:25.149 --> 00:12:27.490 know? And we were talking about this like moment. 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:31.580 right now in spring where all the blossoms are 00:12:31.580 --> 00:12:33.519 coming up you know and i was saying it doesn't 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:35.539 matter how many times that happens how many times 00:12:35.539 --> 00:12:37.700 you see it it's always magical it's always a 00:12:37.700 --> 00:12:40.299 magical moment and she said like yeah because 00:12:40.299 --> 00:12:44.220 it's um like it's a thermal like it'll be gone 00:12:44.220 --> 00:12:46.000 and you know it's going to be gone in a couple 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:49.080 of days and that's a kind of the same thing when 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:51.399 you work like that with produce you know when 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:55.179 you have something like for example gisantes 00:12:55.179 --> 00:12:58.409 de lagrima If you had them all year round, it 00:12:58.409 --> 00:13:01.029 wouldn't be nearly as special as when you have 00:13:01.029 --> 00:13:04.889 them in this tiny window where they're so extremely 00:13:04.889 --> 00:13:08.210 beautiful and perfect size and tender and full 00:13:08.210 --> 00:13:11.669 of juice and taste. That is what makes things 00:13:11.669 --> 00:13:15.309 special. Yeah, it's also the excitement of having 00:13:15.309 --> 00:13:18.169 that proud desire. The season is arriving. It's 00:13:18.169 --> 00:13:21.429 there. You know, there is a moment when the season 00:13:21.429 --> 00:13:26.299 reaches its peak and then it's gone. And it's 00:13:26.299 --> 00:13:29.299 a very beautiful way of celebrating something. 00:13:29.659 --> 00:13:33.460 And it's, you know, like talking earlier about 00:13:33.460 --> 00:13:36.179 this like adaptability mindset, you know, if 00:13:36.179 --> 00:13:39.960 you are a chef and you're a professional and 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:44.080 you have the ability to be adaptable and you 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:46.240 don't, it's not like, oh, I'm really good at 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:52.120 cooking. steak and pan -fried fish and scallops 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:53.940 and blah, blah, blah. And I have like two salads 00:13:53.940 --> 00:13:56.559 in my repertoire and whatever. But if you can 00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:58.799 sort of like, if you have the confidence to say, 00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:01.460 I can make something good out of anything, it 00:14:01.460 --> 00:14:03.740 becomes super exciting because you open yourself 00:14:03.740 --> 00:14:06.740 up to all these little tiny windows through the 00:14:06.740 --> 00:14:10.840 season that you can celebrate. Like the, you 00:14:10.840 --> 00:14:13.279 know, in Japan, they divide the seasons, like 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:15.259 they divide the year into like 40 something seasons, 00:14:15.419 --> 00:14:18.559 like micro seasons. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Something 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:22.080 like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that idea, 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:24.340 you know, because if you've ever worked like 00:14:24.340 --> 00:14:26.399 in a garden or you're close to nature, you see 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:29.700 it like things constantly pop up, pop, pop, pop, 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:31.360 pop, pop, pop. It's not like spring, summer, 00:14:31.460 --> 00:14:34.909 autumn, winter. There's constantly things happening. 00:14:35.210 --> 00:14:37.190 Microseasons. Just with one plant. Yeah, exactly. 00:14:37.389 --> 00:14:39.370 And just with one plant, yeah. Like, for example, 00:14:39.370 --> 00:14:42.669 a coriander plant. Like, it'll grow. You'll have 00:14:42.669 --> 00:14:46.269 the, like, feathery, like, young leaves. Then 00:14:46.269 --> 00:14:48.250 you have the, like, adult leaves. Then at some 00:14:48.250 --> 00:14:50.950 point you have the seeds, right? And you have 00:14:50.950 --> 00:14:53.570 the, if you want at some point to plant a stand, 00:14:53.669 --> 00:14:55.809 you have the root also. And they're all completely 00:14:55.809 --> 00:14:58.769 different. And the flowers, you know? So in just 00:14:58.769 --> 00:15:00.730 one plant throughout the year, you have completely 00:15:00.730 --> 00:15:03.590 different things. That is a celebration. And 00:15:03.590 --> 00:15:05.690 like, also that is something talking about limitations 00:15:05.690 --> 00:15:09.309 and creativity that pushes you, you know, if 00:15:09.309 --> 00:15:11.309 you have, if you set yourself the limitation, 00:15:11.409 --> 00:15:13.370 I'm going to work inside of these micro seasons. 00:15:14.070 --> 00:15:16.669 You have to make something with the things that 00:15:16.669 --> 00:15:20.669 you have available, but you also increase your, 00:15:20.690 --> 00:15:24.049 your tool sets in the ingredients that you have 00:15:24.049 --> 00:15:28.240 by like 10 times. Hey, Phil, have you subscribed 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:30.879 to our newsletter yet? We have a newsletter? 00:15:31.259 --> 00:15:34.159 What's a newsletter about, Eric? Every month 00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:36.580 we share one cool thing from the world of food 00:15:36.580 --> 00:15:39.480 and restaurants, and occasionally a recipe we 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:42.600 swore we'd never share. Like your secret boiled 00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:45.820 egg lemon tart recipe. But Eric, that was my 00:15:45.820 --> 00:15:49.500 grandma's secret recipe. Not anymore. Subscribe 00:15:49.500 --> 00:15:52.440 to our newsletter where we unveil all of Phil's 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:59.820 grandmother's secrets. Also, talking about resources, 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:02.740 ecosystem, environment, and everything you just 00:16:02.740 --> 00:16:07.539 said, what about gardening, having your own garden, 00:16:07.659 --> 00:16:11.120 plantings, even foraging, looking around, even 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:14.639 investigating if there is like a whatever, like 00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:18.519 a tree bark that can be turned into a spice or 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:21.279 I have no idea. Like, how would you approach 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:26.460 all the things in the way you usually work? I 00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:28.539 mean, the cool thing, I'm obviously biased, you 00:16:28.539 --> 00:16:31.799 know, like I am very passionate about the relation 00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:36.539 of produce growing to using them in the kitchen. 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:39.820 I really believe in that because I very early 00:16:39.820 --> 00:16:43.240 on realized that for me, the quality of a produce 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:48.799 is so essential, right? And when you have a garden, 00:16:48.899 --> 00:16:52.500 you have control over many things, right? And 00:16:52.500 --> 00:16:55.240 you have access to things that you cannot buy. 00:16:55.580 --> 00:16:59.399 Money can't buy that, right? And that is invaluable 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:01.500 for me. You have, first of all, control over 00:17:01.500 --> 00:17:06.839 what you plant, what varieties you plant, because 00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:10.740 a radish is not a radish. There's hundreds of 00:17:10.740 --> 00:17:15.940 varieties of radishes. Basil isn't basil. Mint 00:17:15.940 --> 00:17:17.640 is not mint. There's so many different types 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:20.140 of mint that all taste different. In the garden 00:17:20.140 --> 00:17:22.819 in Mugaritz, I worked in the garden for a while, 00:17:22.900 --> 00:17:25.690 which is something... Every time I hear this 00:17:25.690 --> 00:17:29.430 current discussion about how horrible it is to 00:17:29.430 --> 00:17:32.210 be a stagiaire because you're going to be on 00:17:32.210 --> 00:17:34.549 your knees cutting leaves, I was a couple of 00:17:34.549 --> 00:17:36.750 weeks in the garden and I think it was like a 00:17:36.750 --> 00:17:39.309 super valuable experience in my own experience. 00:17:39.670 --> 00:17:43.750 But in any case, they had only basil. There were 00:17:43.750 --> 00:17:47.230 like 12 varieties, you know, and there was a 00:17:47.230 --> 00:17:49.230 salad where we have like a little leaf of each 00:17:49.230 --> 00:17:53.069 and it was something like super baroque and elaborated. 00:17:53.980 --> 00:17:56.880 For sure. I mean, I fought to get into the garden 00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:58.839 in Mugaritz. They didn't want to put me in. It 00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:00.839 took me, I think, half a year to get in. And 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:02.279 I asked them constantly. I was like, I want to 00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:05.819 be in the garden, please. And finally, at some 00:18:05.819 --> 00:18:08.779 point, they let me in. And it was a beautiful 00:18:08.779 --> 00:18:12.400 experience. And we also, like the garden, we 00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:15.259 were two in the garden. It was also common for 00:18:15.259 --> 00:18:18.099 us to, every once in a while, we had to take 00:18:18.099 --> 00:18:20.680 a run and go to the fields and grab some wild 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:24.019 herbs as well. It was part. part of your tasks 00:18:24.019 --> 00:18:28.200 sometimes even even picking a car and going to 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:31.200 to find the oxalis you know like this the clover 00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:35.519 like leaves i remember going to a specific place 00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:37.700 where we knew there was going to be a lot of 00:18:37.700 --> 00:18:40.019 those and we would hand pick them you know like 00:18:40.019 --> 00:18:43.980 absolutely i mean it's it's those also like the 00:18:43.980 --> 00:18:48.019 foraging you know it's it makes sense in in two 00:18:48.019 --> 00:18:51.589 ways i think right obviously people, what I don't 00:18:51.589 --> 00:18:54.369 like is that people, they overdo this whole foraging 00:18:54.369 --> 00:18:56.569 thing and they slap it on their restaurant like 00:18:56.569 --> 00:19:01.390 a label. And they, it's kind of almost like, 00:19:01.569 --> 00:19:03.950 oh, you know, we want to fit into this vibe of 00:19:03.950 --> 00:19:06.549 like Nordic, blah. But foraging has two very 00:19:06.549 --> 00:19:08.450 strong things going for them. First of all, you're 00:19:08.450 --> 00:19:11.309 picking something that you cannot buy. If you're 00:19:11.309 --> 00:19:14.450 picking pine shoots, you can't order pine shoots, 00:19:14.569 --> 00:19:17.369 right? Elderflowers, sometimes you can order 00:19:17.369 --> 00:19:20.390 elderflowers, but like, phew. fucking expensive 00:19:20.390 --> 00:19:22.250 you know stuff like wild garlic here in germany 00:19:22.250 --> 00:19:25.589 so expensive you order wild garlic you know if 00:19:25.589 --> 00:19:27.890 you go if you go and pick it yourself it's it's 00:19:27.890 --> 00:19:33.170 free it's free of charge um but like again you 00:19:33.170 --> 00:19:35.789 have control over when you pick something right 00:19:35.789 --> 00:19:40.650 um and the second reason why foraging is so great 00:19:40.650 --> 00:19:45.170 is that um you are picking something you're getting 00:19:45.170 --> 00:19:49.660 a special ingredient at the very height of its 00:19:49.660 --> 00:19:52.640 ripeness and when it's at the very height of 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:55.920 its ripeness it's full of nutrients it's full 00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:59.599 of energy it's fresh as fuck and because of all 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:01.720 those things it's really really really delicious 00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:04.599 all those things are what makes something delicious 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:07.920 be it a herb or a vegetable or whatever right 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:10.900 so that is very cool you know like as a restaurant 00:20:10.900 --> 00:20:14.150 if you have like forage things You have something 00:20:14.150 --> 00:20:16.630 that other restaurants simply cannot buy that 00:20:16.630 --> 00:20:18.809 you went out to get with using your knowledge 00:20:18.809 --> 00:20:23.549 and using your time. And also, if you do it the 00:20:23.549 --> 00:20:26.750 right way, you will pick a certain amount and 00:20:26.750 --> 00:20:30.190 you'll have the necessity to preserve that. And 00:20:30.190 --> 00:20:35.430 preservation and fermentation for you as a chef 00:20:35.430 --> 00:20:39.640 opens up a whole new pantry. of kitchen staples 00:20:39.640 --> 00:20:43.400 of brines and pickles okay when you because i 00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:45.640 got lost for a second because i was like what 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:47.839 the fuck are you suddenly talking about like 00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:50.299 why do you put preservation and fermentation 00:20:50.299 --> 00:20:52.720 in the same sentence you're you're talking about 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:55.019 preserving the produce not preserving the ecosystem 00:20:55.019 --> 00:20:57.640 right no like for example you know like like 00:20:57.640 --> 00:20:59.960 when i when i worked briefly in copenhagen like 00:20:59.960 --> 00:21:01.720 we would do this a lot right we would like it 00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:04.700 was like hip roast season So we would go out 00:21:04.700 --> 00:21:07.240 and we would gather as many hip roses when they're 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:09.480 the most fragrant and we preserved them in vinegar 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:11.460 and like whatever, we'd freeze them, we put them 00:21:11.460 --> 00:21:15.019 in alcohol or garlic capers. Man, like when I 00:21:15.019 --> 00:21:18.200 was at Brewer in Copenhagen, we went to this 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:21.799 like grounds, this castle and this little forest. 00:21:22.259 --> 00:21:24.539 I think there was like five of us and we each 00:21:24.539 --> 00:21:27.940 picked, you know, those like 50 liter black bin 00:21:27.940 --> 00:21:31.279 bags, the plastic bags. We each picked like a 00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:34.210 full bin bag, full. And there was plenty left, 00:21:34.410 --> 00:21:36.950 right? But it's kind of like they're here now. 00:21:37.150 --> 00:21:40.450 They'll be gone in a week. They'll be done, right? 00:21:40.789 --> 00:21:44.230 So you pick them. You pick as much as you can, 00:21:44.269 --> 00:21:47.269 right? Without like fucking up the environment, 00:21:47.569 --> 00:21:50.950 no? And then you preserve them. And through preserving 00:21:50.950 --> 00:21:52.470 them, you have them like you can use them fresh. 00:21:52.950 --> 00:21:55.230 You can, whatever you do, you can use them pickled. 00:21:55.369 --> 00:21:58.349 You can use the pickle brine to add into dressings 00:21:58.349 --> 00:22:02.799 or whatever, you know? you give yourself this 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:06.819 painter's palette that you can work with, that 00:22:06.819 --> 00:22:08.500 you can draw from for the rest of the year. And 00:22:08.500 --> 00:22:10.900 then, looping back to talking about creativity, 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:16.160 all of this ties in together. You create basically 00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:19.339 like a framework that you're working with. as 00:22:19.339 --> 00:22:21.200 a chef like me for example like i have certain 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:23.279 like base recipes that i always use and that 00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:26.359 i've used for years certain sauce bases certain 00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:29.720 you know condiments that then loop into different 00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:32.400 recipes so you have like a repertoire right and 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:34.900 all these things start working together and then 00:22:34.900 --> 00:22:37.519 you get a fresh product and you're like what 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:41.900 do i do preserving this but using my painter's 00:22:41.900 --> 00:22:44.980 palette and from there you like you keep it going 00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:47.920 Yeah, the interesting thing is that you can turn 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:50.859 everything into a condiment, you know, be it 00:22:50.859 --> 00:22:56.160 an animal produce or wild produce or vegetables 00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:59.779 or whatever you can do. You can turn it into 00:22:59.779 --> 00:23:06.140 a spice, agarum, whatever, a strong condiment 00:23:06.140 --> 00:23:09.200 base, all sorts of things. I recently got this 00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:13.930 book. Have you seen it? This is a foraging guide 00:23:13.930 --> 00:23:16.430 made by Basque Culinary Center. I will be there 00:23:16.430 --> 00:23:21.509 next Sunday doing a foraging field trip with 00:23:21.509 --> 00:23:24.349 my friend, Michelo Laisola, who knows very well 00:23:24.349 --> 00:23:27.450 Igueldo. Let's see what we find. You know who 00:23:27.450 --> 00:23:30.869 would be cool inviting to the show? Miles Irving. 00:23:31.009 --> 00:23:34.630 He's like the British authority on foraging. 00:23:35.690 --> 00:23:38.940 That would be a cool conversation. Absolutely. 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:43.200 I went to his place in the UK at one point. I 00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:46.839 visited him and I had some amazing things like 00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:48.460 I tried some amazing things. I think what he 00:23:48.460 --> 00:23:50.160 does is really cool. He's a super interesting 00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:53.779 guy. And I tried when I went to visit him. He's 00:23:53.779 --> 00:23:56.779 so intelligent. He's so eloquent and so well 00:23:56.779 --> 00:23:59.720 learned. And he's got so much knowledge that's 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:03.059 so, so valuable, I think. I remember I tried 00:24:03.059 --> 00:24:06.740 this one thing, these like preserved plums. i 00:24:06.740 --> 00:24:08.579 don't really exactly know how he preserved them 00:24:08.579 --> 00:24:10.640 but he was sort of like yeah this is like a very 00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:13.259 old simple way of preserving plums he got it 00:24:13.259 --> 00:24:16.400 like from like an old recipe book and he preserves 00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:19.480 them with the stone and he's like you have to 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:22.960 leave them for at least like two years and he 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:25.000 says what happens after two years is that the 00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:28.240 like this pectin from the stone starts changing 00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:31.259 the texture and the flavor of the plum meat And 00:24:31.259 --> 00:24:33.940 when you tasted these plums, they tasted like 00:24:33.940 --> 00:24:37.460 the inside of the stone with this very almondy, 00:24:37.460 --> 00:24:40.559 marzipany flavor. You know, like cherry pits 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:43.259 when you crack them and you infuse them. And 00:24:43.259 --> 00:24:45.940 the texture of the plums was like gummy bears. 00:24:46.619 --> 00:24:49.440 And it was so good. I still remember it to this 00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:51.880 day. It was over 10 years ago now that I went 00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:55.099 to see him. It was incredible. And these sorts 00:24:55.099 --> 00:24:58.519 of things, you know, you have that in your pantry. 00:24:59.890 --> 00:25:01.609 And then you have like, you're sort of like, 00:25:01.690 --> 00:25:04.470 oh, I have to, what did I get in? My meat supplier 00:25:04.470 --> 00:25:07.029 or like my hunter brought me in pigeons or duck, 00:25:07.109 --> 00:25:08.529 right? And you're sort of like, okay, cool. What 00:25:08.529 --> 00:25:10.309 can I do with them? You got those plums in your 00:25:10.309 --> 00:25:13.349 pantry from like two years ago. Fucking hell, 00:25:13.450 --> 00:25:16.450 you got a dish already. You know, nicely roasted 00:25:16.450 --> 00:25:19.589 piece of game. You make a nice like sauce out 00:25:19.589 --> 00:25:22.490 of the bones, a condiment out of those plums, 00:25:22.509 --> 00:25:24.289 maybe even just a piece of the plum on the side, 00:25:24.390 --> 00:25:26.869 glazed in a little bit of jus. You're winning. 00:25:27.329 --> 00:25:30.940 Incredible. Maybe you also had like a pigeon 00:25:30.940 --> 00:25:35.359 garum also from last year. Exactly. You just 00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:37.220 assemble everything together. That's the magic 00:25:37.220 --> 00:25:39.740 thing about cooking with condiments. As you say, 00:25:39.900 --> 00:25:45.140 if you have like an incredible pickled baby plums 00:25:45.140 --> 00:25:49.000 or whatever, that's it. The main ingredient was 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:53.539 waiting. That was it. Yeah, absolutely. And that's 00:25:53.539 --> 00:25:56.059 also, I think, the magic of foraging, for example. 00:25:56.119 --> 00:25:59.160 I don't know what we will find next Sunday. But 00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:03.180 like you say, you suddenly find some baby plums 00:26:03.180 --> 00:26:06.039 or whatever, you know, and you figure out what 00:26:06.039 --> 00:26:09.299 to do with those and you bring it out from there. 00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:12.480 Which brings me to the, so far we've talked only 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:15.710 about resources. We have also touched a bit on 00:26:15.710 --> 00:26:18.069 technique, but yeah, how do you approach technique? 00:26:18.150 --> 00:26:21.250 At what point do you decide what to apply? For 00:26:21.250 --> 00:26:23.329 example, you just mentioned you got a pigeon. 00:26:23.569 --> 00:26:26.569 What techniques do apply to a pigeon and why? 00:26:27.349 --> 00:26:31.470 Yeah, I think that's, again, like what the key 00:26:31.470 --> 00:26:33.450 thing here is, again, limitations, right? You, 00:26:33.509 --> 00:26:35.869 at some point, you decide for yourself what you 00:26:35.869 --> 00:26:39.710 like, you know, and for the experience that you 00:26:39.710 --> 00:26:43.380 have as a professional. um you acquire certain 00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:47.539 skill sets and at some point you do specialize 00:26:47.539 --> 00:26:50.740 in a way like for me it's kind of like when i 00:26:50.740 --> 00:26:54.980 think about meat right for me straight away i 00:26:54.980 --> 00:26:57.559 think about open fire cooking you know that's 00:26:57.559 --> 00:27:00.200 something that i got super into at one point 00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:03.200 i don't remember i think it was in in uh in the 00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:05.019 best country the first time that i had this like 00:27:05.019 --> 00:27:11.039 oh you know and since then i Like I did it more 00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:13.660 and more and more. And I couldn't imagine opening 00:27:13.660 --> 00:27:15.980 a restaurant that doesn't have a grill or like 00:27:15.980 --> 00:27:18.779 a fireplace. Couldn't, makes no sense to me. 00:27:19.180 --> 00:27:22.279 For me as a chef. Yeah. And then, you know, when 00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:28.180 I think of fish, I, you know, I have a mix of 00:27:28.180 --> 00:27:32.519 like very classical, like French training. And 00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:34.859 I also spend a lot of time in Mexico and Japan. 00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:38.440 Right. So I like raw dishes, but I also like. 00:27:39.549 --> 00:27:41.950 vibrant dressings and like, so like you take 00:27:41.950 --> 00:27:46.230 the bits and pieces that you like and they stick 00:27:46.230 --> 00:27:48.569 with you and you explore them. You know, why 00:27:48.569 --> 00:27:51.349 do you like them? Like why, do you remember the 00:27:51.349 --> 00:27:53.849 first time that you ate a mole, a mole sauce? 00:27:56.589 --> 00:27:59.710 Yes. Yes, yes. I do. It was actually in culinary 00:27:59.710 --> 00:28:03.799 school. Oh yeah? For me, I don't know how it 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:05.880 was for you, but for me, it was a very emotional 00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:08.160 experience. Like I ate it and I was like, okay, 00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:10.980 this is delicious, but something else is like 00:28:10.980 --> 00:28:14.299 so deep and like there's so much going on. And 00:28:14.299 --> 00:28:16.259 I was kind of like, why do I like this so much? 00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:20.799 And you start reflecting on it and then you start 00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:24.039 maybe testing some things out and you build your 00:28:24.039 --> 00:28:26.279 own palette. I really think these things are 00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:30.480 hardwired. I mean, it's my intuition, and I think 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:33.559 I've read, I have the idea that I've read this 00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:39.660 somewhere, but that relationship between open 00:28:39.660 --> 00:28:43.579 fire, roasted meat, those smells trigger something 00:28:43.579 --> 00:28:46.400 in your brain that connects you with your ancestors 00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:49.079 for thousands of years. Something happens there 00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:51.900 that you start salivate and, you know, and it's 00:28:51.900 --> 00:28:53.880 like click, you know, like it's not not for a 00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:57.329 reason. It's something. I mean, like we've been 00:28:57.329 --> 00:28:59.549 doing that as humans for thousands of years, 00:28:59.829 --> 00:29:05.650 right? And it's also a sign of that's safe to 00:29:05.650 --> 00:29:08.849 eat, you know, like that combination of cooked 00:29:08.849 --> 00:29:11.750 meat. Yeah, for sure. For sure. It's something 00:29:11.750 --> 00:29:15.369 primal, you know, but like. Yeah, and I think 00:29:15.369 --> 00:29:17.089 you set yourself limitations, you know, like 00:29:17.089 --> 00:29:19.150 I like a certain thing, so like I'm going to 00:29:19.150 --> 00:29:21.230 explore that because I know that if I want to 00:29:21.230 --> 00:29:23.910 do everything, like I'm not going to. So I think 00:29:23.910 --> 00:29:26.809 if you limit yourself with technique also, it 00:29:26.809 --> 00:29:30.250 just makes sense, right? Some people will really 00:29:30.250 --> 00:29:34.299 get into pasta. And they'll fully get into that 00:29:34.299 --> 00:29:37.220 super technical understanding it, executing it 00:29:37.220 --> 00:29:39.000 nicely because there's so much. And it's such 00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:40.640 a simple thing, but it's so intricate, right? 00:29:40.839 --> 00:29:44.259 Yeah, or a specific type of noodle soup somewhere 00:29:44.259 --> 00:29:47.140 in Asia that there's someone that does only that 00:29:47.140 --> 00:29:50.759 and has done it for decades, you know? Yeah, 00:29:50.920 --> 00:29:53.039 and cooking is so infinite, you know? I mean, 00:29:53.059 --> 00:29:54.819 like, even if you look at Europe and you say, 00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:57.319 like, okay, like the way that a Spanish chef 00:29:57.319 --> 00:29:59.420 would make a sauce, you know, it's not the same 00:29:59.420 --> 00:30:02.500 as a... French chef would make a sauce, even 00:30:02.500 --> 00:30:04.380 if we're talking about like a meat sauce, like 00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:06.000 a suquette or something like that, you know? 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:10.440 I think it's so, so personal, but I think what 00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:13.059 it all has in common is that you are putting 00:30:13.059 --> 00:30:16.339 yourself certain limitations in which you can 00:30:16.339 --> 00:30:19.640 explore your possibilities. And then there is 00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:22.180 this loop of you apply technique, you transform 00:30:22.180 --> 00:30:27.640 your produce, and then taste comes. How do you 00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:29.740 approach this? Because is this loop of taste, 00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:34.339 remake, if it wasn't, maybe it was one take, 00:30:34.500 --> 00:30:36.819 you know, and that was it, and ready to go, especially 00:30:36.819 --> 00:30:39.099 if you're working on a daily menu, you have one 00:30:39.099 --> 00:30:43.279 shot, that's it. But let's say, like, you're 00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:45.200 putting something in a menu that will be there 00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:48.779 for a month. How do you approach that loop of 00:30:48.779 --> 00:30:51.960 testing and tasting and testing again and tasting 00:30:51.960 --> 00:30:56.750 again? Obviously, again, taste is very, very 00:30:56.750 --> 00:31:03.670 subjective, right? I cook with the sole intention 00:31:03.670 --> 00:31:07.190 of making something as delicious as possible. 00:31:07.589 --> 00:31:10.150 That's the only thing that I care about. I care 00:31:10.150 --> 00:31:12.690 about it looking good. I care about it being 00:31:12.690 --> 00:31:14.410 aesthetically pleasing. I care about it being 00:31:14.410 --> 00:31:17.750 interesting in a flavor combination, maybe surprising, 00:31:18.150 --> 00:31:21.369 you know. After all, if somebody comes to a restaurant 00:31:21.369 --> 00:31:24.940 that I'm cooking in, I don't want them to eat 00:31:24.940 --> 00:31:26.099 something that they feel like they could have 00:31:26.099 --> 00:31:28.160 made themselves at home. I think that's very 00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:32.359 important that you have a certain level. But 00:31:32.359 --> 00:31:36.759 at the end of the day, I think taste trumps everything. 00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:41.359 It trumps any concept, any idea, any special 00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:46.200 ingredients, any storytelling. You said taste 00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:50.019 is very subjective. What do you look for in taste? 00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:55.839 What is something tasty for you? Yeah. So that 00:31:55.839 --> 00:32:00.640 changes, you know. Sometimes it comes down to, 00:32:00.740 --> 00:32:06.759 when I say taste, I do include texture in it, 00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:08.960 which does sound a little bit, but when I call 00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:12.220 something tasty, texture plays a big role in 00:32:12.220 --> 00:32:15.000 there also, right? Sometimes I'll have something 00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:17.480 where it's very important for me that the seasoning 00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:21.549 is spot on, the balance of the ingredients. salty 00:32:21.549 --> 00:32:23.930 elements sweet elements sour elements you know 00:32:23.930 --> 00:32:27.509 savory elements bitter elements that whatever 00:32:27.509 --> 00:32:30.470 is in that dish that it's in a in a very good 00:32:30.470 --> 00:32:34.569 balance right it has that like that golden golden 00:32:34.569 --> 00:32:40.009 cut right but sometimes i will have a dish that 00:32:40.009 --> 00:32:43.670 it's often vegetable dishes where i want the 00:32:43.670 --> 00:32:46.009 seasoning to be a little bit more mellow because 00:32:46.009 --> 00:32:49.369 i want the ingredient the taste of the ingredient 00:32:49.369 --> 00:32:52.619 to come out So, for example, an asparagus dish, 00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:55.819 a white asparagus dish, like this seasoned at 00:32:55.819 --> 00:32:59.119 the moment, I will season less heavy, you know, 00:32:59.180 --> 00:33:01.680 because I love the flavor of the white asparagus. 00:33:02.339 --> 00:33:05.299 And that's something that I personally learned 00:33:05.299 --> 00:33:07.400 in Japan. When you say seasoned, you're talking 00:33:07.400 --> 00:33:11.740 just about salt, right? Or in general, condiments 00:33:11.740 --> 00:33:15.059 and other stuff. General, you know, general. 00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:19.319 If I baste something with brown butter, for me, 00:33:19.339 --> 00:33:21.180 that's kind of a seasoning. If I glaze it with 00:33:21.180 --> 00:33:23.180 the brown butter, you know. It is. But obviously 00:33:23.180 --> 00:33:25.619 salt always plays a role, pretty much always. 00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:28.180 Or something salty, something equivalent. Because 00:33:28.180 --> 00:33:32.079 salt is just very tasty. But, you know, seasoning 00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:35.200 is whatever you add to highlight an ingredient 00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:39.180 for me, you know. Phil, do you recommend podcasts 00:33:39.180 --> 00:33:42.529 to your friends? All the time. The best way of 00:33:42.529 --> 00:33:44.329 showing friends that you care is recommending 00:33:44.329 --> 00:33:47.410 a great podcast to listen to. I agree. If you're 00:33:47.410 --> 00:33:50.029 listening right now, you should show your love 00:33:50.029 --> 00:33:53.089 by recommending or show to all your best friends. 00:33:53.210 --> 00:33:56.470 It will make them happy. It will make us happy. 00:33:56.690 --> 00:33:59.509 PopLock Food Talks. Tell your friends. It will 00:33:59.509 --> 00:34:06.109 make the world a better place. What's your set 00:34:06.109 --> 00:34:11.909 of seasonings that you apply? Do you have, let's 00:34:11.909 --> 00:34:15.570 say, salt? Do you have sour elements? What's 00:34:15.570 --> 00:34:18.789 your standards? What things do you usually have 00:34:18.789 --> 00:34:21.829 at hand to use? Do you add vinegar, for example, 00:34:21.829 --> 00:34:26.469 to vegetables? I don't know. Yeah, I don't think 00:34:26.469 --> 00:34:30.769 I have a set thing. Salt is always there, right? 00:34:30.909 --> 00:34:34.309 I have, like, it really, really highly depends, 00:34:34.550 --> 00:34:38.090 you know? I have certain bases. Like, for example, 00:34:38.090 --> 00:34:41.630 I make this type of, like, um infused tamari 00:34:41.630 --> 00:34:44.869 but like very light tamari um that i use for 00:34:44.869 --> 00:34:48.929 a lot of bases of other sauces and other like 00:34:48.929 --> 00:34:52.369 ingredients which is like a mixture of of you 00:34:52.369 --> 00:34:54.690 know soy sauce and mirin that is then infused 00:34:54.690 --> 00:34:58.510 with seaweed and um you know like a i just call 00:34:58.510 --> 00:35:01.250 it tasty sauce because at some point i made it 00:35:01.250 --> 00:35:06.710 like for one dish and um i liked it so much that 00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:09.699 It ended up being in every recipe that I was 00:35:09.699 --> 00:35:13.400 making, you know? So, but like, as like a base 00:35:13.400 --> 00:35:15.719 and it's a very good, nice base, you know, and 00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:17.539 I even started making like traditional French 00:35:17.539 --> 00:35:21.099 sauces with it. Um, it just works really, really 00:35:21.099 --> 00:35:25.820 well. No, I just kicked off my batch of four 00:35:25.820 --> 00:35:29.639 different Garums. Uh, now that I got the, the 00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:32.199 proteases, I wanted to check how they behave. 00:35:32.300 --> 00:35:38.659 I had still some, uh, shelf stable. store -bought 00:35:38.659 --> 00:35:42.980 koji that i bought in japan amazing so i make 00:35:42.980 --> 00:35:49.300 him garum of cured anchovies iberico ham chuleta 00:35:49.300 --> 00:35:55.559 and farm chicken holy shit that's that's amazing 00:35:55.559 --> 00:35:58.800 man i think meat garum is fucking amazing like 00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:02.280 we were using it here in in berlin um i would 00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:07.590 like take some meat like uh whether it was beef 00:36:07.590 --> 00:36:11.369 or like venison you know and like brush it with 00:36:11.369 --> 00:36:14.909 meat garum let it cure for like a couple hours 00:36:14.909 --> 00:36:18.590 and then like pat it dry and then just like brush 00:36:18.590 --> 00:36:21.769 it and grill it and it would just give it this 00:36:21.769 --> 00:36:24.170 like intense umami you know it's a perfect example 00:36:24.170 --> 00:36:27.409 of like having something in your pantry where 00:36:27.409 --> 00:36:29.590 it's kind of like okay you cook a piece of venison 00:36:29.590 --> 00:36:31.730 and you just cook it like salt blah blah blah 00:36:31.730 --> 00:36:34.599 i'll cook a piece of venison I've taken this 00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:37.300 ingredient from my pantry and I used it as a 00:36:37.300 --> 00:36:40.539 seasoning, as a condiment. It doesn't end up 00:36:40.539 --> 00:36:42.659 in the final dish. I'll cook the piece of venison. 00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:44.960 You tell me which one's better. I think that 00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:48.059 this also applies to the drink world. There's 00:36:48.059 --> 00:36:51.460 such an incredible difference. I will never remember 00:36:51.460 --> 00:36:54.159 this place that I worked in, Bolivia, that the 00:36:54.159 --> 00:36:57.039 bar, the drinks were so good because there was 00:36:57.039 --> 00:37:01.940 no Coke. There was nothing. No industrial drinks. 00:37:02.179 --> 00:37:07.239 All the bitters, all the mixers. There was lots 00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:11.280 of kombuchas of different things. Lots of sparkling, 00:37:11.579 --> 00:37:14.139 homemade sparkling drinks of different kinds. 00:37:15.380 --> 00:37:18.619 And it also brings you to this whole universe 00:37:18.619 --> 00:37:22.219 that is not constrained by Coca -Cola company. 00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:28.340 uh or or the three brands that dominate the the 00:37:28.340 --> 00:37:32.159 non -alcoholic drink world basically yeah absolutely 00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:34.460 i think and this is again a constraint as you 00:37:34.460 --> 00:37:36.559 say you know that like pushes creativity i think 00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:38.820 that's super super good yeah but like circling 00:37:38.820 --> 00:37:40.780 back to your question i think vinegar is a very 00:37:40.780 --> 00:37:44.260 underused um seasoning component i remember when 00:37:44.260 --> 00:37:47.980 we were at favikin um we had this these little 00:37:47.980 --> 00:37:52.130 spray bottles that were filled with very clean, 00:37:52.190 --> 00:37:55.289 high distilled vinegar, white vinegar, see -through, 00:37:55.369 --> 00:37:58.710 right? The like sharpest, cleanest, no flavor, 00:37:58.829 --> 00:38:01.710 just sharp. For one, we would use these spray 00:38:01.710 --> 00:38:04.889 bottles to clean the surfaces and wipe the surfaces 00:38:04.889 --> 00:38:07.750 with vinegar. But also we would use these spray 00:38:07.750 --> 00:38:13.969 bottles to season dishes. So a tiny dust of clear 00:38:13.969 --> 00:38:17.340 distilled vinegar on top of a dish can... elevate 00:38:17.340 --> 00:38:21.300 things so intensely most notably we had this 00:38:21.300 --> 00:38:23.940 dish on the menu it was fucking it was incredible 00:38:23.940 --> 00:38:26.280 you would have fucking loved it it was so so 00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:29.219 so good we would get these little lamb tongues 00:38:29.219 --> 00:38:32.760 so like a beef tongue but from a lamb and we 00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:35.059 would cook them very simply but not so simply 00:38:35.059 --> 00:38:37.940 we would put them in a pot and boil them poach 00:38:37.940 --> 00:38:39.739 them right until they're tender like you would 00:38:39.739 --> 00:38:41.860 classically with a tongue then we would take 00:38:41.860 --> 00:38:45.190 them out peel them right And then we would put 00:38:45.190 --> 00:38:49.309 them in a pot with stock, beef stock, and reduce 00:38:49.309 --> 00:38:51.250 the stock. And when the stock gets to a point 00:38:51.250 --> 00:38:55.050 where it like caramelizes in the pot, we would 00:38:55.050 --> 00:38:57.730 take a brush with some more stock, loosen this 00:38:57.730 --> 00:39:01.030 caramel and brush it onto the lamb tongues. And 00:39:01.030 --> 00:39:03.389 we would repeat that over like two hours until 00:39:03.389 --> 00:39:05.949 they were basically like jellied over with this 00:39:05.949 --> 00:39:10.369 reduced beef stock. Amazing. Together with that, 00:39:10.449 --> 00:39:13.030 we were serving these like very lightly fermented 00:39:13.030 --> 00:39:19.670 vegetables, you know, radishes, kohlrabis, you 00:39:19.670 --> 00:39:24.889 know, shavings of vegetables, cabbages in a brine, 00:39:24.889 --> 00:39:27.590 right? Brined vegetables. And so we'd have this 00:39:27.590 --> 00:39:31.369 like dish with this like very fatty, meaty, soft 00:39:31.369 --> 00:39:34.289 tongue, these like very bright, crunchy vegetables. 00:39:34.309 --> 00:39:37.539 And at the very end, and this was key. We would 00:39:37.539 --> 00:39:40.519 spray the tongue with vinegar and this intense, 00:39:41.059 --> 00:39:43.780 meaty tongue with this bright vinegar punch. 00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:47.039 It was incredible. And since then, I realized 00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:50.500 how powerful a little bit of vinegar can be to 00:39:50.500 --> 00:39:54.760 season things. Yeah, I think having a little 00:39:54.760 --> 00:39:58.780 squeeze bottle with some sherry vinegar is a 00:39:58.780 --> 00:40:02.440 super nice asset to have at hand. And whatever 00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:06.260 you're doing, just like you say, it shouldn't... 00:40:06.679 --> 00:40:09.639 taste vinegary it shouldn't be a gazpacho you 00:40:09.639 --> 00:40:13.360 know it should have like just a hush that's it 00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:16.840 yeah it really it really lifts it and it like 00:40:16.840 --> 00:40:19.599 makes your it makes your tongue kind of open 00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:22.699 up you know it's like like when you like eat 00:40:22.699 --> 00:40:24.340 good sea salt you know your tongue goes like 00:40:24.340 --> 00:40:27.300 you taste the minerality and that and a little 00:40:27.300 --> 00:40:30.789 bit of vinegar is the same i think The last question, 00:40:30.849 --> 00:40:33.730 because that would be the last phase. We stuck 00:40:33.730 --> 00:40:39.469 a lot on resources, but the last phase is value. 00:40:39.730 --> 00:40:43.510 How do you define value in a dish? What gives 00:40:43.510 --> 00:40:46.949 value? Again, this is very subjective, and you 00:40:46.949 --> 00:40:50.750 can say both as a chef and as a consumer, what 00:40:50.750 --> 00:40:56.570 are you looking for there? Yeah, that is a very 00:40:56.570 --> 00:41:00.400 good question, I think. And it's a very, very 00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:03.199 important question. I think it's a question that 00:41:03.199 --> 00:41:05.860 a lot of people should ask themselves and have 00:41:05.860 --> 00:41:09.420 a really honest, hard, long look in the mirror. 00:41:09.739 --> 00:41:12.300 As you say, it's very subjective. I can just 00:41:12.300 --> 00:41:16.519 speak for myself. I think value in a dish that 00:41:16.519 --> 00:41:21.460 I present to a customer should be the quality 00:41:21.460 --> 00:41:24.599 of ingredients. As number one, you get... very 00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:27.320 good quality you're not eating shit right you 00:41:27.320 --> 00:41:31.960 get something good it's made with care and with 00:41:31.960 --> 00:41:36.280 love and with the intention that you enjoy it 00:41:36.280 --> 00:41:43.460 right somebody poured their knowledge and because 00:41:43.460 --> 00:41:45.880 cooking is also very emotional their emotions 00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:50.059 into something for you all right at hopefully 00:41:50.059 --> 00:41:52.699 a level that is higher than yours right like 00:41:52.699 --> 00:41:55.070 because i think My dad used to say this, right? 00:41:55.150 --> 00:41:58.050 He was like, my dad used to say this thing. He 00:41:58.050 --> 00:42:00.010 was sort of like, if I go to a restaurant, I 00:42:00.010 --> 00:42:01.190 don't want to eat something that I could have 00:42:01.190 --> 00:42:03.650 made at home. And when I was younger, I always 00:42:03.650 --> 00:42:05.170 thought that was like very kind of like, oh, 00:42:05.349 --> 00:42:07.610 you know, like whatever. But I think he's right. 00:42:07.730 --> 00:42:10.550 You know, like if you do go somewhere and there's 00:42:10.550 --> 00:42:12.829 a professional making you something, it should 00:42:12.829 --> 00:42:16.389 be made in a way where it's apparent that it's 00:42:16.389 --> 00:42:19.570 very skillful, right? You're paying for the skill, 00:42:19.670 --> 00:42:23.409 but also. I think that you have a responsibility 00:42:23.409 --> 00:42:29.550 to give the person coming to eat your food something 00:42:29.550 --> 00:42:32.710 nourishing, whatever that may be. I'm not saying 00:42:32.710 --> 00:42:35.610 it has to be healthy, right? It can be, but it 00:42:35.610 --> 00:42:38.750 has to be soul nourishing. And I think that is 00:42:38.750 --> 00:42:42.050 the magic that lies in the profession of a chef. 00:42:42.690 --> 00:42:45.389 And I think that is the value that you're giving 00:42:45.389 --> 00:42:49.630 somebody with your cooking. Because cooking can 00:42:49.630 --> 00:42:52.269 just be the process of preparing food. But what 00:42:52.269 --> 00:42:54.949 makes a chef a chef? That he can do that at a 00:42:54.949 --> 00:43:00.429 very high level. But for us, why are we so passionate 00:43:00.429 --> 00:43:02.989 about cooking? Because it's very magical and 00:43:02.989 --> 00:43:06.170 it's very emotional. And ideally, you go somewhere 00:43:06.170 --> 00:43:09.849 and somebody who's tried to delve into that magic, 00:43:10.030 --> 00:43:15.349 who's felt that spark and made his professional 00:43:15.349 --> 00:43:19.000 life about exploring that. And they're giving 00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:20.860 you something and hopefully you can feel some 00:43:20.860 --> 00:43:22.940 of that spark too. I think that is where the 00:43:22.940 --> 00:43:23.659 value should lie.