Hi, everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks,
the show where we talk food and kitchens from
a cook's point of view. Today, it's just me.
My name is Eric Kaiser, at least for this episode.
Bread has been with us for thousands of years,
and yet in the last decades, something feels
different. Hydration, fermentation, open crumb,
terroir, suddenly we care again. So what actually
changed? The bread? The technique? Was it us?
To explore that, I'm joined by master baker Claudio
Perrando. And let's talk bread. But first...
Hi Claudio. Hi. Welcome. Nice having you here.
Thank you for having me. So let's start with
the beginning. How did you become a baker and
how long have you been in the bread world? Originally,
I'm a restaurant chef. And in 1998, I was leaving
Europe. I was living in Germany. And I had the
opportunity to work in a hotel in an island,
in a Caribbean island. And when I reached over
there, it was very lonely, everything. And of
course, the hotel, I checked out everything.
And then I asked for the breakfast. Where is
the bread? Where is the bread? And then they
told me with the bread is a little bit of problem
because they come only once in the week, a small
boat, and they bring some bread. But the bread
that I was bringing, it was already mostly green.
It was moldy. It was not very nice. And then
they told me, because in the restaurant also
we made pizza, we had a pizza oven and we had
also like a fan oven, like a rational or anything
like this with steam. And then they told me,
try to make bread from the pizza dough. I'm half
Italian. I knew to make pizza and I was also
working before in the pizza place, but it was
never crossing the idea of making bread. And
then, okay, I started to make some bread and
it went okay. Yeah, I made some bread. I made
more bread. People was asking for bread. Like
in this island, I was the only one who made a
bread. The other problem was before baking the
bread, there was no yeast. There was no yeast
in the island. My grandfather, I remember, he
told me how to make from fruit water. And from
the fruit water, I started to make poolish. Because
everything in the Caribbean island was fermenting
very fast. So let me just comment about that
for those who don't know. So poolish is basically
a mother dough that you... and you use as a starter
it's like a pre -ferment let's say you use uh
you want to make a bread from one kilo of flour
you use the half of the flour and you make a
poolish equal water and flour and the water was
from the east water and then you let it stay
overnight in room temperature and in the morning
it's it's ready and then you add the other part
of the flour and to adjust with the salt and
the hydration and then you wait again you shape
the bread and then you have a bread like this
i started to make bread it was very simple i
had also one only one kind of flour there was
there was nothing I don't remember it was really
good, but it was better than the shit what you
could buy. Phil had a bakery at some point, and
I also studied bakery. So I learned all these
pre -ferments, the poolish, the biga, the sourdoughs
and everything. And it's interesting because
these things have become kind of trendy in the
last maybe 20 years. But it was actually the
only way it existed to make bread 100 years ago.
There was not... Gist, as we know it today, or
I don't know when it was introduced, but at some
point it was introduced. And before that, we
only had pre -ferments. You said you started
doing bread around in the early 2000s, late 90s?
Yeah, the late 90s, 1998, exactly. And in 2003
or 2004, I quit cooking and I was concentrating
only on bread. Before, I did both. Okay. And
in these six years, it was becoming... always
more interesting to make the bread different,
different tastes. It becomes like challenging.
What made you change? What do you like better
from baking than in the restaurant world? What
for you are the main differences? I figured out,
I'm a little bit a restless person, and I figured
out that baking is, you have one recipe and you
make it each day and each day you can have a
different bread. And in cooking, it's not like
this. If you have a good fish or you have a good
meat, then there's only two choices. You burn
it or you make it bad. A pasta is al dente in
Mexico in 2 ,500 meters or in Panama City on
the level of the ocean. But a bread, it's alive.
It's constantly challenged. This is what I figured
out. It was fitting better to me than cooking.
Yeah. A part of this, I am a person who I like
to stand up very early and to go to bed early.
It's not good for restaurant business. Yeah,
exactly. You work late and you stand up late.
Yeah, like there is some magic in bread baking.
I also work in a bakery in Bolivia, which is
also complicated because you have the altitude.
All the hydration rules changed. I mean, those
breads, they had like, I don't know how much,
like 70 % water, something like that, like really
high. And yeah, but there's also this magic like
in the smells of the bread proofing, also the
baking. Also, I would say the pace is different.
It's more predictable, you know, like it's always
like a same process and a same set of steps.
Well, maybe a restaurant service can be way more
chaotic sometimes or most times. Yeah. Also the,
the, let's say, you know, in the restaurant,
when you are under pressure, the language in
the restaurant is very tough. Yeah. Yeah. It's
not my, my cup, my cup of coffee. Yeah. And I
figured out I am more with a bread. And then
I said, I have to make a decision because I could
not do both things because I wanted to go ahead.
And I said, okay, I want to. to bake and to learn
to bake very well. Okay, you mentioned something
that I think is very interesting for our audience.
You said you were doing bread in a combi oven,
in a rational. And I've heard like, I know I've
done super nice bread in a rational, but I've
heard people saying you can't, like you need
like a super bread oven to do good bread otherwise.
You can't, but I wanted to listen to it from
you. You're an expert. What is your opinion on
that? Yeah, you can make, of course, you can
bake. It's always about the expectation what
you have. If you want the last bread, the ultimate
open crumb, the best ear and all this, then,
of course, you need a bread oven, a deck oven.
And everybody who wants to bake bread on a high
level. They dream about a deck oven, a real deck
oven. And if you have a convection oven, like
type Rational or anything else, then you have
a fan inside. What is the difference? The fan,
the heat goes directly to the crust. The crust
can get dry very quick. The bread stops growing
faster. And in a deck oven, the heat goes from
the bottom. directly to the bread it is different
yeah it's um there are also convection oven they
they do more and less good bread but it's not
the same finally so that the way they heat the
heat is uh transferred yeah different yeah okay
okay there was also some convection oven they
have very strong fan and you cannot even regulate
them Especially when you're in Latin America
with all this Chinese or Brazilian equipment,
there's a nightmare sometimes. They have also
gas ovens, this Chinese oven. We have indirect
gas, and also the bread there gets dry very quick
from outside. Here also you have to observe this.
Because maybe you make a good bread, but if your
bread gets crusty outside very quick, then it
doesn't grow and your crumb also is suffering.
I love the pictures you have on your Instagram
account, like the bread pictures. And somehow
for me, like this is kind of like a modern...
trend of bread making where you see like this
big holes in the center and the way it's cut?
Like, was it always like that? Like, was it like
that 50 years ago? Or this is something that
has evolved from new waves or new ways of thinking
around bread baking? Online, when we are talking
about Instagram and Facebook, I think I'm the
first person who was showing online open crumb.
And I got a lot of hate when I started to do
this. Yeah, because I was fascinated about this.
It was more like a lucky shot that I did once
a bread and it turned out very airy. And then
it was like I wanted to know how to stabilize
this, how to do this, what is the reason and
everything like this. And then after all the
hate what I get, I saw also there was some people.
they loved it and they wanted to know how to
do this and this was spreading more and more
and more people get inspired and then maybe some
more people came out of the closet and then it
it was like like a boom yeah but they say it
was from from old school bakers that would say
you don't do it like that okay definitely that
is a baking mistake we can show you how to make
it better especially around germany Which the
German bread is a bread which is recognized as
one of the best bread in the world. And by themselves,
they make also a lot of promotion in Germany.
They have the best bread in the world. But technically,
when we are talking about skills and about doing
the bread, about how difficult it is to do, it's
one of the most easy bread because it has not
quite hydration. And it goes with the machine.
It's not very difficult. But in Germany, things
are also now changing. But with them, it was
very hard. Only what they do is the right thing.
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very German. I know
that very well. I worked in Germany for eight
years. Yeah, and then nobody knew it better than
them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a urban mindset.
Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, because there have been
like waves, like just what you said. Like, I
think that there are similar things in the chocolate
world or in the wine world or in the beer world
that there were things that you were not supposed
to do that were seen as defects or mistakes.
And suddenly they're being embraced again. Would
you say that there was a point where this began?
Because somehow I have the idea that this was
like in the early 2000s. Yeah. But I don't know
what your view is. I think one of the first person
who changed this kind of thing is Tartine Chad
Robertson with his book. Because he showed there
a different kind of crumb which you could never
find. In any bakery. And it's also for me, I
stepped in 2009 in his bakery. It was like a
wake up call. Hey, I knew also the bread from
Germany. And I was thinking that's the last Coca
-Cola in the desert. And then when I saw his
technique and how he was doing it, then I figured
out, hey, here's anything different. And also
my family in Italy is from the French border.
And they went always in Monton to the market.
The bread was also different. But in this time,
nobody was showing you anything. I did not even
bought the book from something. I tried to do
it by myself, to learn it by myself. What is
the reason? How we can do? And this. But here,
I think it was a change. And then, of course,
the social media was pushing this kind of things
in front. And also the old schools, the old schools,
which was teaching to make this and this and
this. They started to change. Yeah. That's very
interesting because, you know, like we did recently
an episode where we kind of roasted this hard
baker in Mexico because he said some ugly things
about Mexican bread. Or no, better said, about
Mexican culture. Anyways, in one of those comments,
we did a comment on Tartine and everybody was
commenting like, what are you saying? You have
no idea. Tartin didn't change anything. The French
and the Italians are actually the ones. He did
not introduce any new ideas. But from what you're
saying, he did introduce new ideas. What were
these ideas? No, I will not say that he changed
the idea. But actually, Chad Robertson, what
I understand, he was learning also in French.
But this kind of, let's say, the recipe what
he's using, that is known even from the farmers
in Albania in the mountains. They knew this kind
of technique and they cannot even write and read.
I met once a guy from Greece and he was in a
bakery in Hanalfa. He could not do anything and
he did more and less the same bread. This is
European. The Italians, they had the ciabatta,
but they had not a bread like the tartine bread,
the country loaf. Yeah, we are talking about.
And Richard Hart, he was the head baker of Tartine
Bakery. And then he opened up in Copenhagen.
I had once a guy who was working with him in
my bakery for a week. And yeah, and he do more
or less the same bread. Maybe the taste, taste
wise, it's a little bit different, but Chad is
doing because the bread of Chad in San Francisco,
I was feeling very sour. Yeah. And okay. He told
me it's about the bay in San Francisco, but I
think it's the way how we do it. Yeah. because
you can you can manage your sourdough that it's
not sour it doesn't matter it's in the antartis
it's on the on the top on the mountain or it's
on the sea level it's it's all about when you
understand the sourdough you can configure the
the taste yeah and That's it. I don't know what
Richard had. I was following this, that he do
anything in Mexico. I was in Mexico City, but
he was not open yet over there. And more, I do
not know. I wanted to go a little bit deeper,
like in this aha moment that you had in San Francisco.
What was it exactly that changed your way of
understanding bread? I did not like the bread
very much, like I told you, because I was feeling
it sour. buying i think eight loaves or anything
like this i was bringing i was in this time i
was bringing them back to panama i want to give
it to the people because anybody in panama opened
a coffee shop and they showed me the book and
i had a friend he was living in the street from
13 and what was my point was the structure of
the crumb the crust when i cut it when i cut
the bread and how i was the structure of the
crumb. It was not like it has huge big holes.
It was like a good mix, a very open crumb, but
not huge big holes. Now you see, there are some
people, they, in my point of vision, they make
bread, they exaggerate. We are talking now about
the country loaf. Because about the ciabatta,
our thing is different. But a country loaf, and
they make this with very big holes. I know the
technique how to do it. yeah but this bread for
me it's not um not the option yeah um to do it
because it's this is in one point it gets useless
when the holes are too big yeah especially in
a in a bread like this but if you have a good
oven crumb with a nice structure um it's a different
eating and a different taste the bread is different
and this what i was figuring out um with uh with
a bread from chad robertson this was different
like in germany where all everything was dense
dense dense yeah and um this uh i knew when when
you make the in my point of vision this time
also when you make it different it has not to
be sour okay this is a question of taste it's
like i see this like um spicy or not spicy you
like spicy okay and you don't like spicy, it's
also okay. It's not right or wrong. It's only
a question of taste. Yeah, and this is real sour.
The philosophy of them with the bread is like
this. And my philosophy is like the word sour
dog means, oh, the bread has to be a sour taste.
No, no, no, no. Yeah, if I come in a bakery,
most of the bakeries where I do consulting, I
feel anything sour. It's mostly because they
don't know how to manage the sourdough in the
right way. Yeah. Also, something I wanted to
ask you, for example, just a few years ago, I
learned how to make a pizza dough without kneading,
which is perfect to do it at home. You use a
high -protein flour and you let it proof for...
48, 72 hours or something, and you have like
a perfect pizza dough. But there has been, I
wanted to ask you if there are like, I don't
know, new techniques that have been introduced
in the recent years, like, I don't know, like
autolyze or extended hydration rest, delayed
salt. Were these things always around or are
there new things coming up in the bread world?
Yeah, there's a lot of new things coming up in
the bread world, especially with the social media.
There come tips up, then a lot of courses. Everybody
tried to improve. Me, by myself, also tried to
improve. I go to the supermarket, I buy each
kind of flour, I make with each flour the same
bread, and I look the difference from the mixing
until the end. And of course, all these kind
of things before we did not have. We did not
have this variation of flour. with in the past
yeah then most of the people i see this also
in romania still like this you go to the market
and you see you follow up with the people where
they are living they make a dog and they cut
the piece out of the dog and they keep it and
with this dog they use it like a like a start
of the next time and like this they're always
doing in in the same way but now it's like um
It's not only, I see with the social media and
with everything, also with the courses. People
come to my course, they go to another course,
they make an online course, and five months later,
they are teachers. Okay? And like this, the life
goes on very quick, very quick. Yeah? But still,
still, I'm now 30 years in this business. And
I'm still learning and I can still be surprised
each day by anything. Like this, it goes on also
with the pizza. You will never, you will never,
you go to Italy, this is very funny. You go to
Napoli, they will give you the best pizza. You
go to Rome, they tell you they are Napoli, they
don't know nothing. From Rome, you go to Florence
and then they will tell you, ah, they are all
idiots. And like this, you cross Italy and you
will always, in each town, you will find the
best pizza in the world. You have a memory of
having an amazing pizza in a specific place that
you could share? Actually, for me, the best pizza
I have eaten in Italy, and I was very often in
Italy, is in a small village in Albenga. It was
a place in Albenga. It's a place, first of all,
is older than Rome. And I think it's like...
12 ,000, 15 ,000 people. And there was a place
for the military. There was a military base before.
And for these people, they had a special discount
over there. And they had an oven, a wood fire
oven. It was firing with olive trees. And I know
this pizzeria since three generations. And still
going to Napoli, going to Rome. Which I like
a lot of kind of pizza. I have to tell, to say,
I go back there, it's still for me the best pizza.
What makes it special? What are the... The combination,
how the crust is thin, it's baked. For example,
the Napoli pizza, it's kind of raw in my point
of vision. Then I like... The tomatoes. Yeah,
the Roman is more crusty, right? The Roman is
more like a cookie. And then we have also the
pizza tonda. What they do in Rome, I like also
very much. And in Napoli, you have this... They
are also very good pizzas. The balance with the
topping, with everything, the taste from the
wood, which you find, of course, also in Napoli
and Rome. It's finally all a... question of taste
yeah now it goes more superfistic like this and
everybody has a last um the last dog i see how
many pizza bakers over there and i still bet
if i make uh five different pizza dogs and i
i put them in a wood fire oven and with a topping
the world best pizza bakers they cannot tell
me how is made this dog They cannot say it's
sour dog, it's bigger, it's foolish. It's a hype.
In my point of vision, it's a hype. Because if
you want to know the pizza dog is good, you have
to make a bread from this dog. And eating without
topping, then you can say, okay, that's a good
dog. But with tomato sauce, with mozzarella,
with this and this on it, you will not figure
it out. yeah like fine tuning of the dough of
course yeah yeah okay they push the air in the
in the in the borders and they show the the holes
in the in the raw crumb yeah it's okay it's a
hype and it goes very well but very important
is what kind of oven you have and and of course
um the ingredients what you are using and if
you want to know how good is your dough bake
a bread of this dog and then you know how good
it is. Yeah. And what about bakeries? Like a
bakery that you would say, man, this bakery is
amazing somewhere in the world. I saw a lot of
good bakeries. For example, for me, one of the
best cities in bakeries is Budapest. There is
very good bakeries. In Germany also, there's
a guy, Max Kugel. His bakery is, I think, one
of the best. They talk about another guy. The
name is Jochen Gauss. He is very popular in the
social, not only social media. He make for the
football national team. He's like high society.
He's a very crazy guy, but I haven't eat his
bread. Yeah. But from the vision and what I know
and from other colleagues, it should be very,
very good. And one of the best bakeries I was
visiting was a very small bakery in Singapore.
Yeah. In Singapore. In Singapore. I think still.
asia there are what bread and a ministry is there
are in front yeah i haven't i haven't eaten anything
in paris similar i had them the the best pizza
i've ever had i had it in tokyo you know like
but yeah they're great imitators i i had i had
a conversation with uh with uh with uh a time
i made some mini baguette for air force for the
first class And then I had a conversation with
a captain from Air France, and he told me, you
know, when you look for the best croissant in
the world, you have to go to Tokyo. I've heard
of that as well, yeah. We do anything, the Asian
maybe they copy it, and later they make it better.
Yeah, like on my last trip to Japan, somebody
told me, no, no, no, you have to have a pizza
and you have to have a croissant in Tokyo. Like,
if you don't, you missed the trip. And I was
like, okay, well, maybe I'll have to. Yeah, I
can imagine. I can imagine. I know I didn't was
in, I was not in Japan, but I know Singapore,
Malaysia, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Taiwan, Thailand,
and all over you find great places also with
great bread. And yeah, it's, there are, they
are behind. They always want to make it better
and better and better. These are the Asians.
So another thing I wanted to ask you, I would
say maybe, well, not maybe, for sure, the two
main ingredients in a bread are flour and water.
So what do you have to look up to choose the
flour you need or the water you need for the
context you're in? I look for the quality of
the flour, yeah. And of course, with a flour
and like with a sourdough, I can also with a
mix of the flours, I can I make the configuration
of the taste what I have in mind. For example,
I stand up in the morning and I want to make
a bread which tastes like this and this and this.
And then, of course, also for the flour mix,
what I do, I have also a crumb in my mind because
this goes hand in hand. Yeah, the taste. It depends
also on the crumb. A dense bread tastes always
different than an open crumb bread. But it depends
what you're searching for. There is a lot of
dense bread I like also. The water amount is
here also very important. I think always a lot
of water, it's quality. That is what I think.
High hydration is usually best. Yeah. In each
point of vision, you can put also more water
in a dough in way of a porridge or breadcrumbs,
toasted breadcrumbs. You soak them or anything
like this. You have more water, you have more
life and more shelf life and more taste. That's
it. And a lot of bakeries, they do 74, 76, 78
% hydration. For me, it's too low. a bread start
with 82 83 for me a normal country loaf yeah
and on top of this i try to put also with some
skills to put more water inside to end up in
100 or 110 percent hydration that is my goal
Yeah. Wow. Okay. And I guess that like when you
say the quality of the flour, maybe the one indicator
is the capacity to hold water or what exactly,
what is the quality of flour? How do you, what
do you look for? To see what I can do with the
flour, I need to know the W. Yeah. Not the protein
content. The protein content is an indicator.
I say, okay, I have a flour with 13 % of protein.
I know more or less this flour is good for this
kind of bread and it can hold more water than
a flour with 11 % of protein. But it's only an
indication because I don't know about the qualities
of the protein. And for this, the W gives me
an indication how strong and how long I can ferment
this flour. This is very important for me. Yeah.
Uh, this is, yeah. And of course, for me, I look
that the flower is clean. If, if it's not, it
has not to be like bio organic. If it's, it's
okay. But if not, then I look that it's no ascorbine
acid inside or enzymes. I ask, I ask the male,
maybe they lie to me. Yeah. And if I, if I, uh,
Have a flower like this, for example, for let's
say croissant or for panettone. Most of the panettone
flowers, they are all punched. Italians, they
make a big deal not using yeast, not using this
because it has to be all natural. And then they
use punched flower. Punch means ascorbic acid.
Ascorbic acid, enzymes, everything is inside
to make this flower strong. Some of these flour
has W 450, 500, 600. No flour can go to this
W without any help. And I have the luck here
in Romania. I have a lab and I put some flours
in the lab. And it's ridiculous what I got for
result. I don't want to blame nobody. But the
most of the people which are so successful in
panettone baking, they are using pimped flour.
If I use pimp flour, I can also use yeast. It's
the same. Yeah. Yeah. And same as I asked you
about pizza and bakeries, is there like a specific
meal that you say, wow, this is like a super
nice flour they do? Yeah, of course. There is
a lot of good meals, especially in Italy. I know
the mills from Italy much better than, let's
say, from France, because there's also a language
barrier. I had very good flour from Spain. Also
in Germany, I know some good organic mills, which
make very good flour. But in Italy, we have a
lot. I think the quality in Italy is like this.
It doesn't matter which mill you are looking
for. they have a good quality because the competition
is very very high and they are also when you
go abroad you find always italian flower all
over yeah that's a common name like molino pizzuti
caputo you find this yeah there are a lot of
people and molino colombo there is a lot of grassy
there's a lot of meals which are are known and
you find all over it doesn't matter you go to
moscow or to santiago de chile yeah and then
uh you mentioned you do your own flour blends
what do you look for like what do you mix it's
one for flavor the other one when i want to make
a country loaf i look always like uh here a little
bit spelt flour a little bit rye flour yeah um
more or less like uh 10 10 from each or 15 to
keep uh the the volume high and to keep the um
the crumb also more open because more whole flour
i use more difficult it will be to have an open
crumb and i will also lose some volume when i
go more to the healthy part then i prefer to
make a 100 whole wheat bread or 100 % rye bread
or 100 % spelt bread. Or I mix rye with spelt
whole flour. And are there, because this is something
that has happened a lot, like in the food world,
that suddenly someone rediscovers an ingredient
that was forgotten. Has this happened in bread
that somebody took a grain that nobody's using
and started making a flour out of it? Does it
happen? Yeah, I remember when I was working in
Hungary, there was coming up with a flower, the
name is Bankuti. And this was a grain, it was
in the 30s, I think it was winning a world champion
title or anything. And they're starting to grow
this again. And they had only a small amount
available, what they were doing, because I guess
the mill who was growing this wheat was not,
they had not so much of it. And actually, this
was the first time I came in touch with a forgotten
flower. But I'm sure there are much more, maybe
all over in the world, they have something. I
have also a friend in Mexico. He grows his own
weed with anything mystery flower. But I'm not
now aware exactly to give the right information.
And what about water? Do you should look for
something into the water? Like, I don't know,
like the mineral content or anything? Does that
change the rules? Actually not. Okay, when I
go to Latin America, I'm a little bit careful
with this kind of things because, you know, there
are a lot of places you are not allowed even
to drink the water from the sink. And they have
chlorine inside and things like this. Maybe it's
better to use water from the bottle or for filtered
water. But I'm not looking in specific for mineral
contents on this kind of thing. Once I had a
time when I was looking for panettone to make
it in the best way I can. I had some different
starter and I bought different kind of mineral
water. Evian or... Another label, Perrier, or
like this, but I could not figuring out anything
better. Yeah, it was like, that's it. Yeah, I
think being a water sommelier has to be the most
boring profession in the world. I don't know.
This is better to be a wine sommelier. What can
you share about Panettone? Like, what are your...
your key indicators for a good panettone and
is there like like a specific one that you say
is like a really good one you you have i think
the best panettone what i have is my own one
because okay um in the covet time i baked a lot
of panettone i teach myself And I have like a
library with more than 30 different kinds of
panettone recipe. And I have a comparing over
there also. The most of the panettone, for example,
in my point of vision is the balance between
the egg yolk, the egg yolk and the butter amount
is this is big. Then I don't like it. This is
my point of vision. For example, you have. a
panettone recipe with 78 % of butter, but egg
yolk is like 32 % or 38 % or 40 % even, then
it's less egg yolk, more butter. The panettone
turns out a little bit like a lot of butter,
raw butter. But if you have, in my point of vision,
the egg yolk is also very high and the butter
is high, then it's better balanced. And most
of the panettone, in my comparing, I saw also
they have way less ingredients like I use. In
terms of egg yolk and butter. And this makes,
and water also. This means they are more easy
to mix, to knead, than mine. Mine is a little
bit... I fail by myself because one second you
are not concentrated, you fail. But I was making
this recipe and it's kind of the way how I work.
Also, I work always on the border. Me by myself,
I fail also. I would not recommend my recipe
in a big production. I have a recipe in a big
production, which is different. For fun or a
small amount, this panettone is way better than
all what I was eating. And I was eating a lot,
you can believe me. And is it available? Can
people buy your panettone? Okay, let's say the
last recipe, which I do, is not available. But
they are available, but not in the same... Like
this. So you have like a special small batch
recipe. Yeah, it's a special one that I use by
myself. But the other ones which are available,
which I do also in my courses, they also have
way more ingredients like the other ones. And
last question. What do you recommend for people?
Like chefs in a restaurant to do like their bread
service. What's your recommendation? Maybe it's
just buy the bread from a good bakery or I don't
know, maybe frozen works very good or baking
your own bread. Like what would you recommend
to a chef with a restaurant? It depends on the
restaurant, but I actually would make like a
signature bread, a house bread for a good restaurant.
And this is the point where we come back to the
first question. Budapest. is one of the places
where a good restaurant has its own bread. Here
or in other cities, you still go in a restaurant
and they buy anywhere a bread. A bread is a bread.
And in Budapest, a guy I dated once consulting,
he told me, the bread is the last signature under
the menu of the restaurant. If you don't care
about the bread, you don't care about the food.
It depends on the skills. If you don't have any
skills and you have a good contact to a good
bakery, buy the bread from the bakery. But a
good bakery will charge you a good money. And
then, from my point of vision, all the chefs
in the restaurants, they sell a hamburger for
$20 and then they want the hamburger bun they
want to have for $0 .20. And they fight with
you for $0 .05. Selling bread to restaurants
is like a pain in the ass. FOOTA!