WEBVTT 00:00:04.049 --> 00:00:07.129 Hi, everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks, 00:00:07.129 --> 00:00:09.410 the show where we talk food and kitchens from 00:00:09.410 --> 00:00:12.089 a cook's point of view. Today, it's just me. 00:00:12.189 --> 00:00:15.310 My name is Eric Kaiser, at least for this episode. 00:00:15.630 --> 00:00:18.969 Bread has been with us for thousands of years, 00:00:19.089 --> 00:00:21.570 and yet in the last decades, something feels 00:00:21.570 --> 00:00:25.629 different. Hydration, fermentation, open crumb, 00:00:25.670 --> 00:00:29.379 terroir, suddenly we care again. So what actually 00:00:29.379 --> 00:00:32.560 changed? The bread? The technique? Was it us? 00:00:32.939 --> 00:00:37.539 To explore that, I'm joined by master baker Claudio 00:00:37.539 --> 00:00:41.240 Perrando. And let's talk bread. But first... 00:00:41.240 --> 00:00:55.570 Hi Claudio. Hi. Welcome. Nice having you here. 00:00:55.770 --> 00:00:58.829 Thank you for having me. So let's start with 00:00:58.829 --> 00:01:01.090 the beginning. How did you become a baker and 00:01:01.090 --> 00:01:04.670 how long have you been in the bread world? Originally, 00:01:04.769 --> 00:01:10.489 I'm a restaurant chef. And in 1998, I was leaving 00:01:10.489 --> 00:01:13.140 Europe. I was living in Germany. And I had the 00:01:13.140 --> 00:01:17.319 opportunity to work in a hotel in an island, 00:01:17.439 --> 00:01:19.760 in a Caribbean island. And when I reached over 00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:23.519 there, it was very lonely, everything. And of 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:27.799 course, the hotel, I checked out everything. 00:01:27.959 --> 00:01:31.239 And then I asked for the breakfast. Where is 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:33.719 the bread? Where is the bread? And then they 00:01:33.719 --> 00:01:35.819 told me with the bread is a little bit of problem 00:01:35.819 --> 00:01:40.019 because they come only once in the week, a small 00:01:40.019 --> 00:01:42.819 boat, and they bring some bread. But the bread 00:01:42.819 --> 00:01:45.299 that I was bringing, it was already mostly green. 00:01:45.420 --> 00:01:50.060 It was moldy. It was not very nice. And then 00:01:50.060 --> 00:01:54.180 they told me, because in the restaurant also 00:01:54.180 --> 00:01:58.700 we made pizza, we had a pizza oven and we had 00:01:58.700 --> 00:02:06.040 also like a fan oven, like a rational or anything 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:09.650 like this with steam. And then they told me, 00:02:09.669 --> 00:02:13.849 try to make bread from the pizza dough. I'm half 00:02:13.849 --> 00:02:16.349 Italian. I knew to make pizza and I was also 00:02:16.349 --> 00:02:18.469 working before in the pizza place, but it was 00:02:18.469 --> 00:02:21.610 never crossing the idea of making bread. And 00:02:21.610 --> 00:02:24.270 then, okay, I started to make some bread and 00:02:24.270 --> 00:02:28.689 it went okay. Yeah, I made some bread. I made 00:02:28.689 --> 00:02:32.210 more bread. People was asking for bread. Like 00:02:32.210 --> 00:02:35.370 in this island, I was the only one who made a 00:02:35.370 --> 00:02:40.180 bread. The other problem was before baking the 00:02:40.180 --> 00:02:43.020 bread, there was no yeast. There was no yeast 00:02:43.020 --> 00:02:47.080 in the island. My grandfather, I remember, he 00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:51.620 told me how to make from fruit water. And from 00:02:51.620 --> 00:02:55.780 the fruit water, I started to make poolish. Because 00:02:55.780 --> 00:02:58.599 everything in the Caribbean island was fermenting 00:02:58.599 --> 00:03:01.500 very fast. So let me just comment about that 00:03:01.500 --> 00:03:03.919 for those who don't know. So poolish is basically 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:07.650 a mother dough that you... and you use as a starter 00:03:07.650 --> 00:03:10.810 it's like a pre -ferment let's say you use uh 00:03:10.810 --> 00:03:13.729 you want to make a bread from one kilo of flour 00:03:13.729 --> 00:03:16.530 you use the half of the flour and you make a 00:03:16.530 --> 00:03:20.669 poolish equal water and flour and the water was 00:03:20.669 --> 00:03:24.629 from the east water and then you let it stay 00:03:24.629 --> 00:03:28.009 overnight in room temperature and in the morning 00:03:28.009 --> 00:03:31.270 it's it's ready and then you add the other part 00:03:31.270 --> 00:03:35.050 of the flour and to adjust with the salt and 00:03:35.050 --> 00:03:38.750 the hydration and then you wait again you shape 00:03:38.750 --> 00:03:40.590 the bread and then you have a bread like this 00:03:40.590 --> 00:03:43.370 i started to make bread it was very simple i 00:03:43.370 --> 00:03:45.990 had also one only one kind of flour there was 00:03:45.990 --> 00:03:48.629 there was nothing I don't remember it was really 00:03:48.629 --> 00:03:50.849 good, but it was better than the shit what you 00:03:50.849 --> 00:03:53.789 could buy. Phil had a bakery at some point, and 00:03:53.789 --> 00:03:58.270 I also studied bakery. So I learned all these 00:03:58.270 --> 00:04:01.530 pre -ferments, the poolish, the biga, the sourdoughs 00:04:01.530 --> 00:04:04.330 and everything. And it's interesting because 00:04:04.330 --> 00:04:07.430 these things have become kind of trendy in the 00:04:07.430 --> 00:04:11.469 last maybe 20 years. But it was actually the 00:04:11.469 --> 00:04:14.469 only way it existed to make bread 100 years ago. 00:04:14.610 --> 00:04:18.079 There was not... Gist, as we know it today, or 00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:21.339 I don't know when it was introduced, but at some 00:04:21.339 --> 00:04:24.759 point it was introduced. And before that, we 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:26.720 only had pre -ferments. You said you started 00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:30.959 doing bread around in the early 2000s, late 90s? 00:04:31.019 --> 00:04:35.060 Yeah, the late 90s, 1998, exactly. And in 2003 00:04:35.060 --> 00:04:38.879 or 2004, I quit cooking and I was concentrating 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:42.600 only on bread. Before, I did both. Okay. And 00:04:42.600 --> 00:04:45.529 in these six years, it was becoming... always 00:04:45.529 --> 00:04:48.269 more interesting to make the bread different, 00:04:48.449 --> 00:04:52.889 different tastes. It becomes like challenging. 00:04:53.389 --> 00:04:56.069 What made you change? What do you like better 00:04:56.069 --> 00:04:59.629 from baking than in the restaurant world? What 00:04:59.629 --> 00:05:02.370 for you are the main differences? I figured out, 00:05:02.430 --> 00:05:05.310 I'm a little bit a restless person, and I figured 00:05:05.310 --> 00:05:10.250 out that baking is, you have one recipe and you 00:05:10.250 --> 00:05:12.589 make it each day and each day you can have a 00:05:12.589 --> 00:05:15.949 different bread. And in cooking, it's not like 00:05:15.949 --> 00:05:18.189 this. If you have a good fish or you have a good 00:05:18.189 --> 00:05:20.709 meat, then there's only two choices. You burn 00:05:20.709 --> 00:05:24.629 it or you make it bad. A pasta is al dente in 00:05:24.629 --> 00:05:30.529 Mexico in 2 ,500 meters or in Panama City on 00:05:30.529 --> 00:05:35.709 the level of the ocean. But a bread, it's alive. 00:05:36.029 --> 00:05:39.589 It's constantly challenged. This is what I figured 00:05:39.589 --> 00:05:43.699 out. It was fitting better to me than cooking. 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:48.220 Yeah. A part of this, I am a person who I like 00:05:48.220 --> 00:05:51.000 to stand up very early and to go to bed early. 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:54.040 It's not good for restaurant business. Yeah, 00:05:54.100 --> 00:05:56.399 exactly. You work late and you stand up late. 00:05:56.600 --> 00:05:59.420 Yeah, like there is some magic in bread baking. 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:03.720 I also work in a bakery in Bolivia, which is 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:05.500 also complicated because you have the altitude. 00:06:06.639 --> 00:06:09.259 All the hydration rules changed. I mean, those 00:06:09.259 --> 00:06:11.500 breads, they had like, I don't know how much, 00:06:11.579 --> 00:06:14.399 like 70 % water, something like that, like really 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:17.879 high. And yeah, but there's also this magic like 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:22.500 in the smells of the bread proofing, also the 00:06:22.500 --> 00:06:25.199 baking. Also, I would say the pace is different. 00:06:25.259 --> 00:06:28.480 It's more predictable, you know, like it's always 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:32.279 like a same process and a same set of steps. 00:06:33.019 --> 00:06:35.779 Well, maybe a restaurant service can be way more 00:06:35.779 --> 00:06:40.939 chaotic sometimes or most times. Yeah. Also the, 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:43.420 the, let's say, you know, in the restaurant, 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:45.860 when you are under pressure, the language in 00:06:45.860 --> 00:06:48.939 the restaurant is very tough. Yeah. Yeah. It's 00:06:48.939 --> 00:06:51.920 not my, my cup, my cup of coffee. Yeah. And I 00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:55.019 figured out I am more with a bread. And then 00:06:55.019 --> 00:06:58.439 I said, I have to make a decision because I could 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:00.879 not do both things because I wanted to go ahead. 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:04.939 And I said, okay, I want to. to bake and to learn 00:07:04.939 --> 00:07:09.160 to bake very well. Okay, you mentioned something 00:07:09.160 --> 00:07:11.259 that I think is very interesting for our audience. 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:14.920 You said you were doing bread in a combi oven, 00:07:15.060 --> 00:07:18.860 in a rational. And I've heard like, I know I've 00:07:18.860 --> 00:07:21.740 done super nice bread in a rational, but I've 00:07:21.740 --> 00:07:24.139 heard people saying you can't, like you need 00:07:24.139 --> 00:07:26.639 like a super bread oven to do good bread otherwise. 00:07:27.470 --> 00:07:29.269 You can't, but I wanted to listen to it from 00:07:29.269 --> 00:07:32.769 you. You're an expert. What is your opinion on 00:07:32.769 --> 00:07:35.170 that? Yeah, you can make, of course, you can 00:07:35.170 --> 00:07:37.730 bake. It's always about the expectation what 00:07:37.730 --> 00:07:42.209 you have. If you want the last bread, the ultimate 00:07:42.209 --> 00:07:46.709 open crumb, the best ear and all this, then, 00:07:46.709 --> 00:07:49.470 of course, you need a bread oven, a deck oven. 00:07:49.889 --> 00:07:54.110 And everybody who wants to bake bread on a high 00:07:54.110 --> 00:07:58.250 level. They dream about a deck oven, a real deck 00:07:58.250 --> 00:08:02.050 oven. And if you have a convection oven, like 00:08:02.050 --> 00:08:05.250 type Rational or anything else, then you have 00:08:05.250 --> 00:08:08.490 a fan inside. What is the difference? The fan, 00:08:08.629 --> 00:08:12.230 the heat goes directly to the crust. The crust 00:08:12.230 --> 00:08:16.329 can get dry very quick. The bread stops growing 00:08:16.329 --> 00:08:21.629 faster. And in a deck oven, the heat goes from 00:08:21.629 --> 00:08:26.079 the bottom. directly to the bread it is different 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:31.040 yeah it's um there are also convection oven they 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:34.360 they do more and less good bread but it's not 00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:37.720 the same finally so that the way they heat the 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:41.539 heat is uh transferred yeah different yeah okay 00:08:41.539 --> 00:08:44.779 okay there was also some convection oven they 00:08:44.779 --> 00:08:47.320 have very strong fan and you cannot even regulate 00:08:47.320 --> 00:08:50.360 them Especially when you're in Latin America 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:53.559 with all this Chinese or Brazilian equipment, 00:08:53.980 --> 00:08:59.980 there's a nightmare sometimes. They have also 00:08:59.980 --> 00:09:03.279 gas ovens, this Chinese oven. We have indirect 00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:08.720 gas, and also the bread there gets dry very quick 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:11.940 from outside. Here also you have to observe this. 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:14.919 Because maybe you make a good bread, but if your 00:09:14.919 --> 00:09:18.460 bread gets crusty outside very quick, then it 00:09:18.460 --> 00:09:21.500 doesn't grow and your crumb also is suffering. 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:24.799 I love the pictures you have on your Instagram 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:29.200 account, like the bread pictures. And somehow 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:35.100 for me, like this is kind of like a modern... 00:09:35.629 --> 00:09:37.629 trend of bread making where you see like this 00:09:37.629 --> 00:09:40.370 big holes in the center and the way it's cut? 00:09:40.629 --> 00:09:42.730 Like, was it always like that? Like, was it like 00:09:42.730 --> 00:09:45.169 that 50 years ago? Or this is something that 00:09:45.169 --> 00:09:48.590 has evolved from new waves or new ways of thinking 00:09:48.590 --> 00:09:52.029 around bread baking? Online, when we are talking 00:09:52.029 --> 00:09:55.990 about Instagram and Facebook, I think I'm the 00:09:55.990 --> 00:10:00.350 first person who was showing online open crumb. 00:10:00.669 --> 00:10:04.210 And I got a lot of hate when I started to do 00:10:04.210 --> 00:10:07.580 this. Yeah, because I was fascinated about this. 00:10:07.779 --> 00:10:11.940 It was more like a lucky shot that I did once 00:10:11.940 --> 00:10:16.120 a bread and it turned out very airy. And then 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:21.639 it was like I wanted to know how to stabilize 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:24.539 this, how to do this, what is the reason and 00:10:24.539 --> 00:10:29.039 everything like this. And then after all the 00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:33.159 hate what I get, I saw also there was some people. 00:10:33.710 --> 00:10:36.110 they loved it and they wanted to know how to 00:10:36.110 --> 00:10:39.049 do this and this was spreading more and more 00:10:39.049 --> 00:10:42.769 and more people get inspired and then maybe some 00:10:42.769 --> 00:10:45.629 more people came out of the closet and then it 00:10:45.629 --> 00:10:49.830 it was like like a boom yeah but they say it 00:10:49.830 --> 00:10:52.710 was from from old school bakers that would say 00:10:52.710 --> 00:10:56.269 you don't do it like that okay definitely that 00:10:56.269 --> 00:10:58.889 is a baking mistake we can show you how to make 00:10:58.889 --> 00:11:04.340 it better especially around germany Which the 00:11:04.340 --> 00:11:07.620 German bread is a bread which is recognized as 00:11:07.620 --> 00:11:11.240 one of the best bread in the world. And by themselves, 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:13.840 they make also a lot of promotion in Germany. 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:16.539 They have the best bread in the world. But technically, 00:11:16.940 --> 00:11:21.720 when we are talking about skills and about doing 00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:25.100 the bread, about how difficult it is to do, it's 00:11:25.100 --> 00:11:28.820 one of the most easy bread because it has not 00:11:28.820 --> 00:11:33.049 quite hydration. And it goes with the machine. 00:11:33.269 --> 00:11:38.830 It's not very difficult. But in Germany, things 00:11:38.830 --> 00:11:41.870 are also now changing. But with them, it was 00:11:41.870 --> 00:11:47.690 very hard. Only what they do is the right thing. 00:11:48.629 --> 00:11:50.789 Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very German. I know 00:11:50.789 --> 00:11:52.970 that very well. I worked in Germany for eight 00:11:52.970 --> 00:11:55.590 years. Yeah, and then nobody knew it better than 00:11:55.590 --> 00:11:59.320 them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a urban mindset. 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:01.740 Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, because there have been 00:12:01.740 --> 00:12:05.399 like waves, like just what you said. Like, I 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:07.639 think that there are similar things in the chocolate 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:10.639 world or in the wine world or in the beer world 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:14.019 that there were things that you were not supposed 00:12:14.019 --> 00:12:17.360 to do that were seen as defects or mistakes. 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:22.740 And suddenly they're being embraced again. Would 00:12:22.740 --> 00:12:25.919 you say that there was a point where this began? 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:29.820 Because somehow I have the idea that this was 00:12:29.820 --> 00:12:32.940 like in the early 2000s. Yeah. But I don't know 00:12:32.940 --> 00:12:36.159 what your view is. I think one of the first person 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:40.000 who changed this kind of thing is Tartine Chad 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:42.799 Robertson with his book. Because he showed there 00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:44.980 a different kind of crumb which you could never 00:12:44.980 --> 00:12:48.669 find. In any bakery. And it's also for me, I 00:12:48.669 --> 00:12:52.210 stepped in 2009 in his bakery. It was like a 00:12:52.210 --> 00:12:55.649 wake up call. Hey, I knew also the bread from 00:12:55.649 --> 00:12:57.830 Germany. And I was thinking that's the last Coca 00:12:57.830 --> 00:13:00.710 -Cola in the desert. And then when I saw his 00:13:00.710 --> 00:13:04.509 technique and how he was doing it, then I figured 00:13:04.509 --> 00:13:09.470 out, hey, here's anything different. And also 00:13:09.470 --> 00:13:11.909 my family in Italy is from the French border. 00:13:12.070 --> 00:13:14.370 And they went always in Monton to the market. 00:13:14.750 --> 00:13:17.049 The bread was also different. But in this time, 00:13:17.169 --> 00:13:20.450 nobody was showing you anything. I did not even 00:13:20.450 --> 00:13:23.029 bought the book from something. I tried to do 00:13:23.029 --> 00:13:25.289 it by myself, to learn it by myself. What is 00:13:25.289 --> 00:13:28.710 the reason? How we can do? And this. But here, 00:13:28.789 --> 00:13:31.309 I think it was a change. And then, of course, 00:13:31.490 --> 00:13:36.190 the social media was pushing this kind of things 00:13:36.190 --> 00:13:40.129 in front. And also the old schools, the old schools, 00:13:40.190 --> 00:13:42.850 which was teaching to make this and this and 00:13:42.850 --> 00:13:48.840 this. They started to change. Yeah. That's very 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:51.320 interesting because, you know, like we did recently 00:13:51.320 --> 00:13:56.860 an episode where we kind of roasted this hard 00:13:56.860 --> 00:14:00.360 baker in Mexico because he said some ugly things 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:04.799 about Mexican bread. Or no, better said, about 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:07.299 Mexican culture. Anyways, in one of those comments, 00:14:07.460 --> 00:14:10.019 we did a comment on Tartine and everybody was 00:14:10.019 --> 00:14:12.980 commenting like, what are you saying? You have 00:14:12.980 --> 00:14:17.539 no idea. Tartin didn't change anything. The French 00:14:17.539 --> 00:14:20.299 and the Italians are actually the ones. He did 00:14:20.299 --> 00:14:23.100 not introduce any new ideas. But from what you're 00:14:23.100 --> 00:14:26.580 saying, he did introduce new ideas. What were 00:14:26.580 --> 00:14:31.240 these ideas? No, I will not say that he changed 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:35.559 the idea. But actually, Chad Robertson, what 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:38.360 I understand, he was learning also in French. 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:44.120 But this kind of, let's say, the recipe what 00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:47.940 he's using, that is known even from the farmers 00:14:47.940 --> 00:14:50.820 in Albania in the mountains. They knew this kind 00:14:50.820 --> 00:14:53.480 of technique and they cannot even write and read. 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:59.799 I met once a guy from Greece and he was in a 00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:03.759 bakery in Hanalfa. He could not do anything and 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:07.600 he did more and less the same bread. This is 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:10.799 European. The Italians, they had the ciabatta, 00:15:10.940 --> 00:15:18.820 but they had not a bread like the tartine bread, 00:15:18.980 --> 00:15:21.460 the country loaf. Yeah, we are talking about. 00:15:21.639 --> 00:15:27.320 And Richard Hart, he was the head baker of Tartine 00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:30.299 Bakery. And then he opened up in Copenhagen. 00:15:30.299 --> 00:15:33.279 I had once a guy who was working with him in 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:37.960 my bakery for a week. And yeah, and he do more 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:42.720 or less the same bread. Maybe the taste, taste 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:45.559 wise, it's a little bit different, but Chad is 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:49.779 doing because the bread of Chad in San Francisco, 00:15:49.779 --> 00:15:55.559 I was feeling very sour. Yeah. And okay. He told 00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:58.580 me it's about the bay in San Francisco, but I 00:15:58.580 --> 00:16:02.929 think it's the way how we do it. Yeah. because 00:16:02.929 --> 00:16:05.850 you can you can manage your sourdough that it's 00:16:05.850 --> 00:16:08.169 not sour it doesn't matter it's in the antartis 00:16:08.169 --> 00:16:10.690 it's on the on the top on the mountain or it's 00:16:10.690 --> 00:16:16.250 on the sea level it's it's all about when you 00:16:16.250 --> 00:16:18.769 understand the sourdough you can configure the 00:16:18.769 --> 00:16:27.169 the taste yeah and That's it. I don't know what 00:16:27.169 --> 00:16:30.289 Richard had. I was following this, that he do 00:16:30.289 --> 00:16:32.769 anything in Mexico. I was in Mexico City, but 00:16:32.769 --> 00:16:37.730 he was not open yet over there. And more, I do 00:16:37.730 --> 00:16:40.409 not know. I wanted to go a little bit deeper, 00:16:40.549 --> 00:16:44.929 like in this aha moment that you had in San Francisco. 00:16:45.029 --> 00:16:47.929 What was it exactly that changed your way of 00:16:47.929 --> 00:16:50.690 understanding bread? I did not like the bread 00:16:50.690 --> 00:16:53.250 very much, like I told you, because I was feeling 00:16:53.250 --> 00:16:56.669 it sour. buying i think eight loaves or anything 00:16:56.669 --> 00:16:58.629 like this i was bringing i was in this time i 00:16:58.629 --> 00:17:01.309 was bringing them back to panama i want to give 00:17:01.309 --> 00:17:03.850 it to the people because anybody in panama opened 00:17:03.850 --> 00:17:06.609 a coffee shop and they showed me the book and 00:17:06.609 --> 00:17:09.289 i had a friend he was living in the street from 00:17:09.289 --> 00:17:14.950 13 and what was my point was the structure of 00:17:14.950 --> 00:17:18.690 the crumb the crust when i cut it when i cut 00:17:18.690 --> 00:17:23.509 the bread and how i was the structure of the 00:17:23.509 --> 00:17:26.009 crumb. It was not like it has huge big holes. 00:17:26.250 --> 00:17:30.490 It was like a good mix, a very open crumb, but 00:17:30.490 --> 00:17:33.829 not huge big holes. Now you see, there are some 00:17:33.829 --> 00:17:38.049 people, they, in my point of vision, they make 00:17:38.049 --> 00:17:41.150 bread, they exaggerate. We are talking now about 00:17:41.150 --> 00:17:43.430 the country loaf. Because about the ciabatta, 00:17:43.490 --> 00:17:45.769 our thing is different. But a country loaf, and 00:17:45.769 --> 00:17:49.210 they make this with very big holes. I know the 00:17:49.210 --> 00:17:52.500 technique how to do it. yeah but this bread for 00:17:52.500 --> 00:17:57.799 me it's not um not the option yeah um to do it 00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:00.799 because it's this is in one point it gets useless 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:03.920 when the holes are too big yeah especially in 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:06.559 a in a bread like this but if you have a good 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:12.079 oven crumb with a nice structure um it's a different 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:15.180 eating and a different taste the bread is different 00:18:15.180 --> 00:18:20.059 and this what i was figuring out um with uh with 00:18:20.059 --> 00:18:22.460 a bread from chad robertson this was different 00:18:22.460 --> 00:18:24.920 like in germany where all everything was dense 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:31.779 dense dense yeah and um this uh i knew when when 00:18:31.779 --> 00:18:35.079 you make the in my point of vision this time 00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:37.940 also when you make it different it has not to 00:18:37.940 --> 00:18:41.160 be sour okay this is a question of taste it's 00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:46.099 like i see this like um spicy or not spicy you 00:18:46.099 --> 00:18:49.799 like spicy okay and you don't like spicy, it's 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:53.660 also okay. It's not right or wrong. It's only 00:18:53.660 --> 00:18:56.819 a question of taste. Yeah, and this is real sour. 00:18:57.079 --> 00:18:59.559 The philosophy of them with the bread is like 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:03.359 this. And my philosophy is like the word sour 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:06.420 dog means, oh, the bread has to be a sour taste. 00:19:06.660 --> 00:19:08.700 No, no, no, no. Yeah, if I come in a bakery, 00:19:08.859 --> 00:19:12.019 most of the bakeries where I do consulting, I 00:19:12.019 --> 00:19:14.559 feel anything sour. It's mostly because they 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:17.079 don't know how to manage the sourdough in the 00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:19.400 right way. Yeah. Also, something I wanted to 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:22.220 ask you, for example, just a few years ago, I 00:19:22.220 --> 00:19:25.940 learned how to make a pizza dough without kneading, 00:19:25.940 --> 00:19:29.859 which is perfect to do it at home. You use a 00:19:29.859 --> 00:19:33.539 high -protein flour and you let it proof for... 00:19:34.670 --> 00:19:37.890 48, 72 hours or something, and you have like 00:19:37.890 --> 00:19:40.829 a perfect pizza dough. But there has been, I 00:19:40.829 --> 00:19:43.470 wanted to ask you if there are like, I don't 00:19:43.470 --> 00:19:46.430 know, new techniques that have been introduced 00:19:46.430 --> 00:19:48.430 in the recent years, like, I don't know, like 00:19:48.430 --> 00:19:53.369 autolyze or extended hydration rest, delayed 00:19:53.369 --> 00:19:56.750 salt. Were these things always around or are 00:19:56.750 --> 00:19:59.630 there new things coming up in the bread world? 00:20:00.259 --> 00:20:02.839 Yeah, there's a lot of new things coming up in 00:20:02.839 --> 00:20:05.680 the bread world, especially with the social media. 00:20:05.819 --> 00:20:08.779 There come tips up, then a lot of courses. Everybody 00:20:08.779 --> 00:20:12.279 tried to improve. Me, by myself, also tried to 00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:14.980 improve. I go to the supermarket, I buy each 00:20:14.980 --> 00:20:17.640 kind of flour, I make with each flour the same 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:20.900 bread, and I look the difference from the mixing 00:20:20.900 --> 00:20:24.220 until the end. And of course, all these kind 00:20:24.220 --> 00:20:26.440 of things before we did not have. We did not 00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:30.259 have this variation of flour. with in the past 00:20:30.259 --> 00:20:33.720 yeah then most of the people i see this also 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:36.640 in romania still like this you go to the market 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:39.579 and you see you follow up with the people where 00:20:39.579 --> 00:20:42.160 they are living they make a dog and they cut 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:44.180 the piece out of the dog and they keep it and 00:20:44.180 --> 00:20:46.460 with this dog they use it like a like a start 00:20:46.460 --> 00:20:49.259 of the next time and like this they're always 00:20:49.259 --> 00:20:52.920 doing in in the same way but now it's like um 00:20:53.589 --> 00:20:56.930 It's not only, I see with the social media and 00:20:56.930 --> 00:20:59.450 with everything, also with the courses. People 00:20:59.450 --> 00:21:01.650 come to my course, they go to another course, 00:21:01.769 --> 00:21:04.849 they make an online course, and five months later, 00:21:04.930 --> 00:21:10.170 they are teachers. Okay? And like this, the life 00:21:10.170 --> 00:21:14.450 goes on very quick, very quick. Yeah? But still, 00:21:14.670 --> 00:21:18.960 still, I'm now 30 years in this business. And 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:23.200 I'm still learning and I can still be surprised 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:26.519 each day by anything. Like this, it goes on also 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:28.859 with the pizza. You will never, you will never, 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:31.980 you go to Italy, this is very funny. You go to 00:21:31.980 --> 00:21:34.099 Napoli, they will give you the best pizza. You 00:21:34.099 --> 00:21:35.940 go to Rome, they tell you they are Napoli, they 00:21:35.940 --> 00:21:38.460 don't know nothing. From Rome, you go to Florence 00:21:38.460 --> 00:21:42.519 and then they will tell you, ah, they are all 00:21:42.519 --> 00:21:45.890 idiots. And like this, you cross Italy and you 00:21:45.890 --> 00:21:47.930 will always, in each town, you will find the 00:21:47.930 --> 00:21:51.930 best pizza in the world. You have a memory of 00:21:51.930 --> 00:21:56.650 having an amazing pizza in a specific place that 00:21:56.650 --> 00:21:58.849 you could share? Actually, for me, the best pizza 00:21:58.849 --> 00:22:01.849 I have eaten in Italy, and I was very often in 00:22:01.849 --> 00:22:05.730 Italy, is in a small village in Albenga. It was 00:22:05.730 --> 00:22:08.890 a place in Albenga. It's a place, first of all, 00:22:08.890 --> 00:22:11.809 is older than Rome. And I think it's like... 00:22:11.900 --> 00:22:16.759 12 ,000, 15 ,000 people. And there was a place 00:22:16.759 --> 00:22:22.160 for the military. There was a military base before. 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:25.559 And for these people, they had a special discount 00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:29.000 over there. And they had an oven, a wood fire 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:33.380 oven. It was firing with olive trees. And I know 00:22:33.380 --> 00:22:37.579 this pizzeria since three generations. And still 00:22:37.579 --> 00:22:43.819 going to Napoli, going to Rome. Which I like 00:22:43.819 --> 00:22:48.119 a lot of kind of pizza. I have to tell, to say, 00:22:48.180 --> 00:22:51.359 I go back there, it's still for me the best pizza. 00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:55.960 What makes it special? What are the... The combination, 00:22:56.059 --> 00:23:01.119 how the crust is thin, it's baked. For example, 00:23:01.140 --> 00:23:04.059 the Napoli pizza, it's kind of raw in my point 00:23:04.059 --> 00:23:09.619 of vision. Then I like... The tomatoes. Yeah, 00:23:09.619 --> 00:23:11.720 the Roman is more crusty, right? The Roman is 00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:13.440 more like a cookie. And then we have also the 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:16.960 pizza tonda. What they do in Rome, I like also 00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:22.019 very much. And in Napoli, you have this... They 00:23:22.019 --> 00:23:27.039 are also very good pizzas. The balance with the 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:30.819 topping, with everything, the taste from the 00:23:30.819 --> 00:23:34.019 wood, which you find, of course, also in Napoli 00:23:34.019 --> 00:23:38.160 and Rome. It's finally all a... question of taste 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:42.339 yeah now it goes more superfistic like this and 00:23:42.339 --> 00:23:46.759 everybody has a last um the last dog i see how 00:23:46.759 --> 00:23:51.119 many pizza bakers over there and i still bet 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:55.680 if i make uh five different pizza dogs and i 00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:59.259 i put them in a wood fire oven and with a topping 00:23:59.259 --> 00:24:03.759 the world best pizza bakers they cannot tell 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:07.529 me how is made this dog They cannot say it's 00:24:07.529 --> 00:24:11.369 sour dog, it's bigger, it's foolish. It's a hype. 00:24:11.390 --> 00:24:14.849 In my point of vision, it's a hype. Because if 00:24:14.849 --> 00:24:19.349 you want to know the pizza dog is good, you have 00:24:19.349 --> 00:24:22.549 to make a bread from this dog. And eating without 00:24:22.549 --> 00:24:25.809 topping, then you can say, okay, that's a good 00:24:25.809 --> 00:24:29.569 dog. But with tomato sauce, with mozzarella, 00:24:29.869 --> 00:24:32.730 with this and this on it, you will not figure 00:24:32.730 --> 00:24:35.960 it out. yeah like fine tuning of the dough of 00:24:35.960 --> 00:24:40.019 course yeah yeah okay they push the air in the 00:24:40.019 --> 00:24:44.039 in the in the borders and they show the the holes 00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:48.880 in the in the raw crumb yeah it's okay it's a 00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:52.660 hype and it goes very well but very important 00:24:52.660 --> 00:24:56.200 is what kind of oven you have and and of course 00:24:56.200 --> 00:24:59.160 um the ingredients what you are using and if 00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:01.380 you want to know how good is your dough bake 00:25:01.380 --> 00:25:04.009 a bread of this dog and then you know how good 00:25:04.009 --> 00:25:07.269 it is. Yeah. And what about bakeries? Like a 00:25:07.269 --> 00:25:10.569 bakery that you would say, man, this bakery is 00:25:10.569 --> 00:25:15.589 amazing somewhere in the world. I saw a lot of 00:25:15.589 --> 00:25:17.589 good bakeries. For example, for me, one of the 00:25:17.589 --> 00:25:20.869 best cities in bakeries is Budapest. There is 00:25:20.869 --> 00:25:23.329 very good bakeries. In Germany also, there's 00:25:23.329 --> 00:25:27.450 a guy, Max Kugel. His bakery is, I think, one 00:25:27.450 --> 00:25:30.700 of the best. They talk about another guy. The 00:25:30.700 --> 00:25:33.859 name is Jochen Gauss. He is very popular in the 00:25:33.859 --> 00:25:36.240 social, not only social media. He make for the 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:38.680 football national team. He's like high society. 00:25:38.779 --> 00:25:41.660 He's a very crazy guy, but I haven't eat his 00:25:41.660 --> 00:25:45.059 bread. Yeah. But from the vision and what I know 00:25:45.059 --> 00:25:48.839 and from other colleagues, it should be very, 00:25:48.940 --> 00:25:51.880 very good. And one of the best bakeries I was 00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:53.900 visiting was a very small bakery in Singapore. 00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:58.339 Yeah. In Singapore. In Singapore. I think still. 00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:05.460 asia there are what bread and a ministry is there 00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:08.980 are in front yeah i haven't i haven't eaten anything 00:26:08.980 --> 00:26:12.259 in paris similar i had them the the best pizza 00:26:12.259 --> 00:26:14.539 i've ever had i had it in tokyo you know like 00:26:14.539 --> 00:26:18.180 but yeah they're great imitators i i had i had 00:26:18.180 --> 00:26:21.740 a conversation with uh with uh with uh a time 00:26:21.740 --> 00:26:24.480 i made some mini baguette for air force for the 00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:27.640 first class And then I had a conversation with 00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:30.220 a captain from Air France, and he told me, you 00:26:30.220 --> 00:26:32.140 know, when you look for the best croissant in 00:26:32.140 --> 00:26:34.400 the world, you have to go to Tokyo. I've heard 00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:36.960 of that as well, yeah. We do anything, the Asian 00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:39.259 maybe they copy it, and later they make it better. 00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:42.660 Yeah, like on my last trip to Japan, somebody 00:26:42.660 --> 00:26:44.460 told me, no, no, no, you have to have a pizza 00:26:44.460 --> 00:26:46.299 and you have to have a croissant in Tokyo. Like, 00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:49.000 if you don't, you missed the trip. And I was 00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:52.430 like, okay, well, maybe I'll have to. Yeah, I 00:26:52.430 --> 00:26:55.289 can imagine. I can imagine. I know I didn't was 00:26:55.289 --> 00:26:58.670 in, I was not in Japan, but I know Singapore, 00:26:58.829 --> 00:27:04.130 Malaysia, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Taiwan, Thailand, 00:27:04.269 --> 00:27:08.130 and all over you find great places also with 00:27:08.130 --> 00:27:14.690 great bread. And yeah, it's, there are, they 00:27:14.690 --> 00:27:17.390 are behind. They always want to make it better 00:27:17.390 --> 00:27:19.069 and better and better. These are the Asians. 00:27:20.750 --> 00:27:23.809 So another thing I wanted to ask you, I would 00:27:23.809 --> 00:27:27.410 say maybe, well, not maybe, for sure, the two 00:27:27.410 --> 00:27:30.730 main ingredients in a bread are flour and water. 00:27:30.910 --> 00:27:34.450 So what do you have to look up to choose the 00:27:34.450 --> 00:27:37.950 flour you need or the water you need for the 00:27:37.950 --> 00:27:45.710 context you're in? I look for the quality of 00:27:45.710 --> 00:27:48.910 the flour, yeah. And of course, with a flour 00:27:48.910 --> 00:27:52.150 and like with a sourdough, I can also with a 00:27:52.150 --> 00:27:55.089 mix of the flours, I can I make the configuration 00:27:55.089 --> 00:27:58.329 of the taste what I have in mind. For example, 00:27:58.329 --> 00:28:01.529 I stand up in the morning and I want to make 00:28:01.529 --> 00:28:03.589 a bread which tastes like this and this and this. 00:28:04.329 --> 00:28:08.069 And then, of course, also for the flour mix, 00:28:08.190 --> 00:28:11.910 what I do, I have also a crumb in my mind because 00:28:11.910 --> 00:28:16.849 this goes hand in hand. Yeah, the taste. It depends 00:28:16.849 --> 00:28:19.809 also on the crumb. A dense bread tastes always 00:28:19.809 --> 00:28:24.609 different than an open crumb bread. But it depends 00:28:24.609 --> 00:28:28.470 what you're searching for. There is a lot of 00:28:28.470 --> 00:28:32.890 dense bread I like also. The water amount is 00:28:32.890 --> 00:28:36.549 here also very important. I think always a lot 00:28:36.549 --> 00:28:40.450 of water, it's quality. That is what I think. 00:28:40.690 --> 00:28:45.210 High hydration is usually best. Yeah. In each 00:28:45.210 --> 00:28:48.250 point of vision, you can put also more water 00:28:48.250 --> 00:28:53.230 in a dough in way of a porridge or breadcrumbs, 00:28:53.250 --> 00:28:56.089 toasted breadcrumbs. You soak them or anything 00:28:56.089 --> 00:28:58.369 like this. You have more water, you have more 00:28:58.369 --> 00:29:01.470 life and more shelf life and more taste. That's 00:29:01.470 --> 00:29:06.269 it. And a lot of bakeries, they do 74, 76, 78 00:29:06.269 --> 00:29:11.119 % hydration. For me, it's too low. a bread start 00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:15.299 with 82 83 for me a normal country loaf yeah 00:29:15.299 --> 00:29:19.579 and on top of this i try to put also with some 00:29:19.579 --> 00:29:24.019 skills to put more water inside to end up in 00:29:24.019 --> 00:29:27.579 100 or 110 percent hydration that is my goal 00:29:28.109 --> 00:29:32.630 Yeah. Wow. Okay. And I guess that like when you 00:29:32.630 --> 00:29:36.609 say the quality of the flour, maybe the one indicator 00:29:36.609 --> 00:29:40.529 is the capacity to hold water or what exactly, 00:29:40.670 --> 00:29:43.410 what is the quality of flour? How do you, what 00:29:43.410 --> 00:29:45.589 do you look for? To see what I can do with the 00:29:45.589 --> 00:29:49.750 flour, I need to know the W. Yeah. Not the protein 00:29:49.750 --> 00:29:54.170 content. The protein content is an indicator. 00:29:54.940 --> 00:29:58.000 I say, okay, I have a flour with 13 % of protein. 00:29:58.099 --> 00:30:02.039 I know more or less this flour is good for this 00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:05.559 kind of bread and it can hold more water than 00:30:05.559 --> 00:30:09.279 a flour with 11 % of protein. But it's only an 00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:12.339 indication because I don't know about the qualities 00:30:12.339 --> 00:30:16.319 of the protein. And for this, the W gives me 00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:21.980 an indication how strong and how long I can ferment 00:30:21.980 --> 00:30:26.220 this flour. This is very important for me. Yeah. 00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:31.720 Uh, this is, yeah. And of course, for me, I look 00:30:31.720 --> 00:30:35.160 that the flower is clean. If, if it's not, it 00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:39.279 has not to be like bio organic. If it's, it's 00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:43.039 okay. But if not, then I look that it's no ascorbine 00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:47.079 acid inside or enzymes. I ask, I ask the male, 00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:50.880 maybe they lie to me. Yeah. And if I, if I, uh, 00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:55.119 Have a flower like this, for example, for let's 00:30:55.119 --> 00:30:58.480 say croissant or for panettone. Most of the panettone 00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:01.759 flowers, they are all punched. Italians, they 00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:06.059 make a big deal not using yeast, not using this 00:31:06.059 --> 00:31:08.099 because it has to be all natural. And then they 00:31:08.099 --> 00:31:12.059 use punched flower. Punch means ascorbic acid. 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:15.920 Ascorbic acid, enzymes, everything is inside 00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:18.579 to make this flower strong. Some of these flour 00:31:18.579 --> 00:31:24.500 has W 450, 500, 600. No flour can go to this 00:31:24.500 --> 00:31:28.359 W without any help. And I have the luck here 00:31:28.359 --> 00:31:30.759 in Romania. I have a lab and I put some flours 00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:37.180 in the lab. And it's ridiculous what I got for 00:31:37.180 --> 00:31:40.680 result. I don't want to blame nobody. But the 00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:43.559 most of the people which are so successful in 00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:46.099 panettone baking, they are using pimped flour. 00:31:47.019 --> 00:31:49.880 If I use pimp flour, I can also use yeast. It's 00:31:49.880 --> 00:31:57.019 the same. Yeah. Yeah. And same as I asked you 00:31:57.019 --> 00:32:00.140 about pizza and bakeries, is there like a specific 00:32:00.140 --> 00:32:02.900 meal that you say, wow, this is like a super 00:32:02.900 --> 00:32:06.460 nice flour they do? Yeah, of course. There is 00:32:06.460 --> 00:32:10.519 a lot of good meals, especially in Italy. I know 00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:13.680 the mills from Italy much better than, let's 00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:17.079 say, from France, because there's also a language 00:32:17.079 --> 00:32:24.200 barrier. I had very good flour from Spain. Also 00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:28.619 in Germany, I know some good organic mills, which 00:32:28.619 --> 00:32:34.039 make very good flour. But in Italy, we have a 00:32:34.039 --> 00:32:36.460 lot. I think the quality in Italy is like this. 00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:38.700 It doesn't matter which mill you are looking 00:32:38.700 --> 00:32:42.319 for. they have a good quality because the competition 00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:47.259 is very very high and they are also when you 00:32:47.259 --> 00:32:51.500 go abroad you find always italian flower all 00:32:51.500 --> 00:32:55.440 over yeah that's a common name like molino pizzuti 00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:59.220 caputo you find this yeah there are a lot of 00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:04.240 people and molino colombo there is a lot of grassy 00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:08.390 there's a lot of meals which are are known and 00:33:08.390 --> 00:33:10.349 you find all over it doesn't matter you go to 00:33:10.349 --> 00:33:14.490 moscow or to santiago de chile yeah and then 00:33:14.490 --> 00:33:17.410 uh you mentioned you do your own flour blends 00:33:17.410 --> 00:33:20.230 what do you look for like what do you mix it's 00:33:20.230 --> 00:33:22.849 one for flavor the other one when i want to make 00:33:22.849 --> 00:33:26.170 a country loaf i look always like uh here a little 00:33:26.170 --> 00:33:30.029 bit spelt flour a little bit rye flour yeah um 00:33:30.029 --> 00:33:36.430 more or less like uh 10 10 from each or 15 to 00:33:36.430 --> 00:33:41.579 keep uh the the volume high and to keep the um 00:33:41.579 --> 00:33:47.099 the crumb also more open because more whole flour 00:33:47.099 --> 00:33:51.200 i use more difficult it will be to have an open 00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:58.099 crumb and i will also lose some volume when i 00:33:58.099 --> 00:34:00.960 go more to the healthy part then i prefer to 00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:06.099 make a 100 whole wheat bread or 100 % rye bread 00:34:06.099 --> 00:34:11.219 or 100 % spelt bread. Or I mix rye with spelt 00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:15.500 whole flour. And are there, because this is something 00:34:15.500 --> 00:34:18.440 that has happened a lot, like in the food world, 00:34:18.500 --> 00:34:22.400 that suddenly someone rediscovers an ingredient 00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:25.380 that was forgotten. Has this happened in bread 00:34:25.380 --> 00:34:28.900 that somebody took a grain that nobody's using 00:34:28.900 --> 00:34:31.659 and started making a flour out of it? Does it 00:34:31.659 --> 00:34:35.579 happen? Yeah, I remember when I was working in 00:34:35.579 --> 00:34:38.000 Hungary, there was coming up with a flower, the 00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:41.000 name is Bankuti. And this was a grain, it was 00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:44.659 in the 30s, I think it was winning a world champion 00:34:44.659 --> 00:34:47.559 title or anything. And they're starting to grow 00:34:47.559 --> 00:34:51.500 this again. And they had only a small amount 00:34:51.500 --> 00:34:54.719 available, what they were doing, because I guess 00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:59.159 the mill who was growing this wheat was not, 00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:03.639 they had not so much of it. And actually, this 00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:08.179 was the first time I came in touch with a forgotten 00:35:08.179 --> 00:35:12.880 flower. But I'm sure there are much more, maybe 00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:16.980 all over in the world, they have something. I 00:35:16.980 --> 00:35:19.420 have also a friend in Mexico. He grows his own 00:35:19.420 --> 00:35:25.280 weed with anything mystery flower. But I'm not 00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:29.380 now aware exactly to give the right information. 00:35:30.170 --> 00:35:32.650 And what about water? Do you should look for 00:35:32.650 --> 00:35:34.570 something into the water? Like, I don't know, 00:35:34.590 --> 00:35:38.150 like the mineral content or anything? Does that 00:35:38.150 --> 00:35:41.829 change the rules? Actually not. Okay, when I 00:35:41.829 --> 00:35:44.530 go to Latin America, I'm a little bit careful 00:35:44.530 --> 00:35:47.309 with this kind of things because, you know, there 00:35:47.309 --> 00:35:51.329 are a lot of places you are not allowed even 00:35:51.329 --> 00:35:55.190 to drink the water from the sink. And they have 00:35:55.190 --> 00:35:58.929 chlorine inside and things like this. Maybe it's 00:35:58.929 --> 00:36:01.590 better to use water from the bottle or for filtered 00:36:01.590 --> 00:36:07.989 water. But I'm not looking in specific for mineral 00:36:07.989 --> 00:36:12.389 contents on this kind of thing. Once I had a 00:36:12.389 --> 00:36:17.590 time when I was looking for panettone to make 00:36:17.590 --> 00:36:21.150 it in the best way I can. I had some different 00:36:21.150 --> 00:36:23.789 starter and I bought different kind of mineral 00:36:23.789 --> 00:36:29.769 water. Evian or... Another label, Perrier, or 00:36:29.769 --> 00:36:33.769 like this, but I could not figuring out anything 00:36:33.769 --> 00:36:38.469 better. Yeah, it was like, that's it. Yeah, I 00:36:38.469 --> 00:36:41.449 think being a water sommelier has to be the most 00:36:41.449 --> 00:36:44.889 boring profession in the world. I don't know. 00:36:44.969 --> 00:36:50.010 This is better to be a wine sommelier. What can 00:36:50.010 --> 00:36:52.710 you share about Panettone? Like, what are your... 00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:57.059 your key indicators for a good panettone and 00:36:57.059 --> 00:36:59.920 is there like like a specific one that you say 00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:03.739 is like a really good one you you have i think 00:37:03.739 --> 00:37:05.980 the best panettone what i have is my own one 00:37:05.980 --> 00:37:11.900 because okay um in the covet time i baked a lot 00:37:11.900 --> 00:37:16.179 of panettone i teach myself And I have like a 00:37:16.179 --> 00:37:19.219 library with more than 30 different kinds of 00:37:19.219 --> 00:37:22.400 panettone recipe. And I have a comparing over 00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:26.579 there also. The most of the panettone, for example, 00:37:26.579 --> 00:37:30.639 in my point of vision is the balance between 00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:34.960 the egg yolk, the egg yolk and the butter amount 00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:39.119 is this is big. Then I don't like it. This is 00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:42.050 my point of vision. For example, you have. a 00:37:42.050 --> 00:37:46.110 panettone recipe with 78 % of butter, but egg 00:37:46.110 --> 00:37:51.130 yolk is like 32 % or 38 % or 40 % even, then 00:37:51.130 --> 00:37:56.489 it's less egg yolk, more butter. The panettone 00:37:56.489 --> 00:37:59.510 turns out a little bit like a lot of butter, 00:37:59.650 --> 00:38:04.750 raw butter. But if you have, in my point of vision, 00:38:04.809 --> 00:38:07.909 the egg yolk is also very high and the butter 00:38:07.909 --> 00:38:12.099 is high, then it's better balanced. And most 00:38:12.099 --> 00:38:17.440 of the panettone, in my comparing, I saw also 00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:22.320 they have way less ingredients like I use. In 00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:27.739 terms of egg yolk and butter. And this makes, 00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:32.739 and water also. This means they are more easy 00:38:32.739 --> 00:38:37.719 to mix, to knead, than mine. Mine is a little 00:38:37.719 --> 00:38:41.260 bit... I fail by myself because one second you 00:38:41.260 --> 00:38:45.179 are not concentrated, you fail. But I was making 00:38:45.179 --> 00:38:50.940 this recipe and it's kind of the way how I work. 00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:55.059 Also, I work always on the border. Me by myself, 00:38:55.219 --> 00:38:58.380 I fail also. I would not recommend my recipe 00:38:58.380 --> 00:39:02.079 in a big production. I have a recipe in a big 00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:07.599 production, which is different. For fun or a 00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:12.460 small amount, this panettone is way better than 00:39:12.460 --> 00:39:14.440 all what I was eating. And I was eating a lot, 00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:18.019 you can believe me. And is it available? Can 00:39:18.019 --> 00:39:21.320 people buy your panettone? Okay, let's say the 00:39:21.320 --> 00:39:25.559 last recipe, which I do, is not available. But 00:39:25.559 --> 00:39:30.110 they are available, but not in the same... Like 00:39:30.110 --> 00:39:32.769 this. So you have like a special small batch 00:39:32.769 --> 00:39:36.250 recipe. Yeah, it's a special one that I use by 00:39:36.250 --> 00:39:38.829 myself. But the other ones which are available, 00:39:38.949 --> 00:39:43.190 which I do also in my courses, they also have 00:39:43.190 --> 00:39:46.449 way more ingredients like the other ones. And 00:39:46.449 --> 00:39:51.590 last question. What do you recommend for people? 00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:59.539 Like chefs in a restaurant to do like their bread 00:39:59.539 --> 00:40:01.659 service. What's your recommendation? Maybe it's 00:40:01.659 --> 00:40:04.760 just buy the bread from a good bakery or I don't 00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:07.099 know, maybe frozen works very good or baking 00:40:07.099 --> 00:40:09.199 your own bread. Like what would you recommend 00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:12.199 to a chef with a restaurant? It depends on the 00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:15.820 restaurant, but I actually would make like a 00:40:15.820 --> 00:40:18.199 signature bread, a house bread for a good restaurant. 00:40:18.420 --> 00:40:20.559 And this is the point where we come back to the 00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:23.719 first question. Budapest. is one of the places 00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:28.119 where a good restaurant has its own bread. Here 00:40:28.119 --> 00:40:31.840 or in other cities, you still go in a restaurant 00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:34.619 and they buy anywhere a bread. A bread is a bread. 00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:38.960 And in Budapest, a guy I dated once consulting, 00:40:39.159 --> 00:40:43.460 he told me, the bread is the last signature under 00:40:43.460 --> 00:40:46.880 the menu of the restaurant. If you don't care 00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:49.659 about the bread, you don't care about the food. 00:40:50.030 --> 00:40:52.190 It depends on the skills. If you don't have any 00:40:52.190 --> 00:40:54.630 skills and you have a good contact to a good 00:40:54.630 --> 00:40:57.210 bakery, buy the bread from the bakery. But a 00:40:57.210 --> 00:41:00.909 good bakery will charge you a good money. And 00:41:00.909 --> 00:41:03.949 then, from my point of vision, all the chefs 00:41:03.949 --> 00:41:07.550 in the restaurants, they sell a hamburger for 00:41:07.550 --> 00:41:11.510 $20 and then they want the hamburger bun they 00:41:11.510 --> 00:41:14.469 want to have for $0 .20. And they fight with 00:41:14.469 --> 00:41:17.389 you for $0 .05. Selling bread to restaurants 00:41:17.389 --> 00:41:19.909 is like a pain in the ass. FOOTA!