Hi, everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks,
the show where we talk food and kitchens from
a cook's point of view. We're recording live
from a place where motivation is praised, questioned,
and quietly exploited. My name is Cedric Fromm,
and I'm here with Philip Brickman. Neither of
us is particularly convinced that wanting more
is always a good thing. Today, we're talking
motivation, why we push. what we tell ourselves
it's for, and how the same drive that builds
great kitchens can also grind people down if
no one stops to ask why. But first... So, Phil,
how would you describe... Motivation. If you
had to say like a definition for me, motivation
is, what would you say? Motivation is the spark
inside of you that ignites the flame of your
furnace, your interior furnace that drives you
forward in your life. Your interior tiger. Something
like that. Rawr. Yes. No, it's interesting because
what you say matches completely with what I would
say. Motivation are stories we tell ourselves
and we believe in. And for me, this works on
different levels. At the micro level, which is
a person, and you have this thing that you believe
that drives you to do whatever. And also at the
macro level, for example, wars. In order for
wars to exist, there has to be narratives. And
the narratives have to be consistent. On both
sides. Both sides are telling themselves a story
they believe in, and that's why they're fighting
for, right? Yes. And, you know, especially like
in very demanding environments like high -end
kitchens, for example, or let's say the Olympics
or whatever, it's impossible without motivation,
like self -motivation, like having very clear
what's your story, why are you doing this, for
what reason, as soon. As there is a mismatch
with the story you're telling yourself and what's
going on around, you don't want to be there.
You're unhappy. You're not working. People are
mad at you because you're not dancing to the
same music, you know? What are your thoughts
about that? I mean, like, motivation is a weird
thing, man. Like, I've always struggled with
the idea of motivation because for me, my motivation
of, like, the stuff that I do, it comes, like,
very naturally, right? And I'm very, very, what?
So sorry to interrupt you because I remember,
you know, when I met you, you were like 17 years
old. And I remember we were once having like
a similar conversation and you were saying, because
at that place we were working like 16 hours a
day. Yes. And you were saying like, you know,
like the thing is, this is what I do, you know,
like, and I come here. So I'm a chef, I'm a cook.
I come here and I cook and this is what I do.
So I come here and I spend. all day here and
for me this is you know like the way i take it
and that was very interesting for me yeah yeah
how how things change no for sure i mean like
i am immensely grateful that i do something in
my life that i don't need to like motivate myself
for necessarily like i i go to work and i work
a lot of hours and i get such immense enjoyment
out of what i do right not necessarily What I
do, like, oh, I love my job, you know, because
I can be fucking pissed off at my job, like the
people and the customers and the operations and
the logistics and stuff. But food, food is just
and cooking is just it's just magical. It's magical.
It's like it's heavenly. It's like for me, there's
nothing that compares to it. Right. And I would
imagine that a musician feels the same way about
music. They're like, man, I make music. There's
a couple of things in life that have this, for
me anyway, this aspect of almost godlike aesthetic.
And cooking for me is one of those things. And
it's never the same. It's always different. You're
working with nature. You're working with your
hands. You get these raw fucking ingredients.
You do something to them. And something else
comes out and then it like disappears straight
away. It's fucking bananas, right? It's so bizarre.
And then you start all over again. It's not like
you paint a painting and then it's there, right?
You like make something, you put all this effort
into it and then you basically, you send it off
and somebody like eats it and like either they
like really like it or they like, they're like
whatever, or maybe they hate it, you know, but
it's, it's, it's gone. either way it will end
up in the toilet next day hopefully yes 100 and
like that i never get tired of you know like
before christmas i took some holidays over christmas
which was a big luxury for me it was wonderful
and before that i was a bit burned out and i
was really sick i was i felt really uncreative
i felt really kind of like mentally stuck and
i was like man i really don't feel like cooking
anymore i was trying to make new dishes and i
was like i can't come up with anything i hate
everything that i make i hate all of you guys
like everybody around me you know and i was like
i just don't want to do this anymore it took
i think three four days three four days of me
not being in a kitchen that i was like i sat
down i had like a calm evening i put on a cooking
show I watched it and I was like, I was watching
the people cook and I was like, man, cooking
is fucking amazing. It's so fucking cool. And
so I'm incredibly grateful for that because not
every, not to say that only cooking has this.
And this is like the monk mentality. I really
believe that you can find this in anything. I'm
just not open -minded enough. Like I have a very
hard time doing something else. I can't, for
example, I can very difficult, like motivate
myself to do like. computer work for two hours,
right? 16 hours, kitchen, cooking, no problem.
No problem. I'll smash it out. Two hours, like
Excel, dead. Yeah. But like, I really believed
it. But how do you deal with it? If you have
to do two hours Excel sheets, like, how do you
deal with it? Do you... Well, I'm a grown -up,
you know. Take a lot of coffee or, you know.
Well, I'm a grown -up. No, like, you get enjoyment
out of, like, doing it well anyway, right? Like,
you get enjoyment out of different things, out
of making it nice, out of making it efficient,
out of getting the blah, you know? Making it
make sense, you know, you write a schedule, it's
like it works perfectly, like, whatever it is,
you know? Just like, and that's what I mean,
just like being a dishwasher, right? So much
enjoyment in working in a dishwasher pit. Yeah.
If you find it. It's fun. Yeah. And it's physical
and you're moving and you're, you know, like,
I think, I mean, if it would be well paid, I
prefer a thousand times being a dishwasher before
an Excel sheet maniac, you know? Oh, yeah. A
hundred percent. A hundred percent. If it was
the same pay, easy. But there's a very underrated
aspect to cleaning things, I think. Like sweeping
the floor, you know? The monk mentality, sweep
the floor. But sweep it, you know, like put yourself
into what you're doing. I really feel like you
can find the enjoyment in things, in everything
that you do. And that's like a little bit this
sort of like kung fu mentality, right? People
always say like, oh, it's like Zen mentality.
It has nothing to do with Zen because if you
start looking into Zen, it's like, you know.
Nothing, literally. Absolutely, yeah. But like
Kung Fu, you know, like what Kung Fu actually
means, like Kung Fu tea, you know, making the
tea, but putting yourself into making it, you
know, it can be anything. Imagine you could put
as much energy and attention into everything
that you're doing, that you do with something
that you're passionate about. Imagine you're
really enjoying making a roast chicken and you
take the chicken, you unpack it, you truss it,
you trim it, you tie it by skill involved, right?
You know, you rub it with butter, you salt it,
you roast it, you turn it. And at the end, because
you put all this like attention into it, you
have this beautifully cooked roast chicken that
you sit down and you enjoy. Now imagine you do
that with everything and not just like the special
things, but like brushing your teeth, ironing
your clothes, making the bed, going outside for
a walk, going to the bus, you know. It's possible.
It's a very abstract idea. No, no, no. I completely
get it. I really believe in that. Yeah, there
is this Buddhist concept called Samadhi, which
is like losing yourself in the activity you're
doing. And yeah, it's kind of like an ecstasy
state of pleasure by being overly concentrated
in a single thing. It's amazing because I feel
like there's no limit to it. If you lose yourself,
you let go and you lose yourself. And exactly
that, what you said, you know, it's like when
you're drinking tea, you know, you can find so
much like, and suddenly you start like seeing
the textures of the cup. You see how it feels.
You start like noticing the fluidity of your
movement, right? How you pick it up, how your
fingers feel on the cup, like all of that sort
of stuff. The like little bit of like airbrush
when you like move it towards you against your
skin. It's infinite. It's crazy. And, you know,
have you ever had this thing in the kitchen where
you're working on a section and you feel like
you're in flow state and you're just like turning
back and forth, you're bop, bop, bop, bop, bop,
bop, bop, you know? And you're not thinking,
you're just in a flow state. Absolutely. And
yeah, like somebody tells you, whatever, can
you pass me? the sauce bottle of whatever and
and you know it's you know exactly what it is
you take it without looking you open the fridge
take it out put it there and continue doing what
you were doing and you're just flowing yeah that's
amazing uh i haven't had that for a long while
you're thinking too much that's what a kung fu
master would say what would you say if you have
to think that like what actually drives most
chefs you know i think this is i mean this is
just my assumption right but i think nowadays
we have this image of a successful chef you know
a chef like people like chefs people think chefs
are cool right because face it they are you know
being a chef is pretty cool being able to cook
food is pretty cool and i think too many people
are too worried about being that they lose themselves
in the superficial and they lose the substantial
right instead of losing themselves in in the
process and what they're doing in what actually
makes the craft special which is the process
and the ingredient and your skill you're like
a catalyst catalyst what you call a catalyst
yeah for things they like go through you to become
something else and then also very very importantly
somebody else enjoying what you did right like
the effect that it has on them As you can tell,
none of those things have anything to do with
you and your own ego, right? So I feel like too
many people are too worried about themselves
and their ego and how they seem to other people
and the image that they create for themselves.
And I get it, you know, that's how you do business.
That's how you market yourself. That's how you
probably get a sponsor for your restaurant. It's,
you know, not to be neglected, right? But if
we're talking about like really sort of the essence
of it. I think people underestimate it. They're
too worried also when it comes to food about
what things seem, what they look like, the story
that they have. I don't think I know a lot of
chefs that really chase the sensation of you
put something in your mouth and everything stops
and you stop a moment and you close your eyes
and you think to yourself, oh my God, this is
so good. Like we've talked about this before.
Like, when was the last time that you had that
moment, that you, like, ate something, you stopped,
and you were sort of like, this is so incredible?
First thing that comes to my mind is that Noma
kind of gargiyu that we had. Oh, yeah, that was
good. The sauce, yeah. That was really good,
yeah. I had some of those moments, the deserda,
the cevari, you know, like, that was like, what
the fuck is going on here? And that's a good
example, because that's so simple, right? So
simple, you know. But I think that's exactly
what, like, I feel like if more chefs would focus
on that, we'd have a fucking amazing lineup of
chefs, you know. Now going to the dark side,
what motivates an abuser in a kitchen? Have you
ever thought about that? Like this crazy chef
that starts screaming, throwing things, you know,
like even going physical or personal. What do
you think is their motivation? What drives them?
I think it's, unfortunately, In a lot of cases,
just the fact of the acceptance. I feel like
there's a lot of people that if you give them
a uniform, they'll raise the beating stick really
quick. They'll jump to it. If you make them the
warden of the prison, they will start beating
the prisoners. Oh, yeah. You know the experiment,
right? Of course, yeah. Yeah, that's a fact.
I think there are many things on the table. Like
on one side is that there are no mechanisms in
kitchens for these things to be corrected. You
know, that's why they happen. Chefs don't have
the tools to have a conversation or implement
a process of correction for whatever that thing
that made him so crazy to correct that. more
sober and productive way or constructive. And
since they don't have those tools, at the same
time, I think it's 100 % ego. You can't be calm
if you don't detach yourself from ego. You have
to let go, you know, and that on one side. And
also, I'm pretty sure somebody abused them first.
Of course, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It's like
rapists. A lot of rapists, if you ask them, they
were abused themselves. So it's like a vicious
circle, the circle of destruction. At the end
of the day, it's psychological issues that haven't
been solved. That's my take on that. Yeah, I
think you're probably right. And fear. 100 %
fear. Fear. Of the abuser, that the abuser has
fear? 100%. Yeah, I think they're afraid of not
having control or losing their status of being...
Looking stupid. I have the biggest dick in the
room and I don't want everybody to think the
opposite, you know? Yeah, the fear of showing
vulnerability, right? Or weakness. Yeah, yeah.
of being like, oh, I was wrong, you were actually
right, you know, or something like that. And
since we're talking about motivation, I'm 100
% sure that an abuser always has a story to justify
himself. You know, like, always will be, but
I'm doing this for the good of everyone. You
know, like, or, you know, there's always this
rationalization of what they're doing and justification
because it's the best for everyone. It's the
best for the restaurant and the customer and,
you know, like, I think that's also like a condition
for abuse to happen. I think you are 100 % correct.
And these like stories of putting things into
a perspective that is palatable. to the person,
right? That makes them be able to digest what's
happening, right? It's sort of like, oh, I'm
shaping in my own head the circumstances and
the truth. I'm shaping it in a way where it kind
of fits into like what suits me. And so I can
like look at myself in the mirror later, right?
But here's an interesting question, right? Because
you've probably a few times in your career and
in your general life have been in a situation
where somebody's telling you a story and they're
like, no, it's because of this, because of that.
And you're sort of like, this is what you're
telling yourself. You're telling yourself this
right now. And as long as you will keep telling
yourself this, you will believe it. You have
to stop. Right? Yeah, absolutely. Or also in
interpersonal relationships, be it a friend or
a girlfriend or someone that you're assuming
the position of the other person. And sometimes
you have to just ask, but did the other person
tell you anything about that? no so and why are
you thinking this i don't know you know like
and in maybe most cases it's all mental noise
you know like there's nothing going on absolutely
yeah and it's crazy because you can sometimes
really tell that people are telling themselves
a story to make everything seem okay but so here's
the interesting part which is something that
i'm asking myself also lately which is um which
story are we telling ourselves which story are
you telling yourself right now at the moment
to make something more palatable to make something
make sense to make something you know be more
digestible for yourself because i i really believe
that we all do it to a certain extent and i think
that this sort of like letting go of an ego and
this self -reflection leading to self -improvement
starts with that to a certain extent how was
this quote you once shared i thought that was
pretty cool i don't remember how it was it was
something like seeing yourself as the villain
of the story or something like that can you can
you remember that quote seeing yourself as the
villain of the story yeah like no you you don't
really oh yeah yeah what was it it was something
like like yeah like there's always a villain
in a story but You become, I don't know what,
in the moment, you realize you are the villain
of the story or something like that. I'll say
a different quote that has to do with motivation,
you know, because it's often very easy to be
motivated in front of other people, right? Because
it's, to a certain extent, we're chasing the
approval of others. and the image that we try
to portray to the world right so it's easier
for us to be motivated and eager when there's
an audience right whether it's our co -workers
or whoever the fuck right but is it actually
the improvement of yourself and the skill that
you're after or is it just the image that you're
trying to create and so the quote that i want
to share that i'm trying to tell myself um as
of late is you're only as good as the person
that you are when nobody's watching yeah i know
that one what would you say about motivating
others which would be your your take on that
i think that nothing is achieved by tearing people
down i don't believe in that anymore i think
you should lift people up whether they you should
at least attempt to if they do like If they want
to, they do. And you have something to share
with them that makes them improve, they will.
But I think that we need to move away from tearing
people down because there's nothing gained by
that. It's inevitable that your energy is contagious.
So just screaming or cursing or hitting the wall,
that generates an energy. in the environment.
Same as the opposite, you know, like coming with,
you know, with a positive energy and whatever,
moving things and making things move. That's
also contagious. It's just every single person's
choice what to do.