Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks, the
show where we talk food and kitchens from a cook's
point of view. We're recording live from a place
where excellence is sacred, fear is efficient,
and silence is often part of the uniform. My
name is Erich Hönnecke, and I'm here with Philippe
K. Dick. Neither of us is sure what's real anymore.
And today we're finally talking about what some
people are already calling the Noma Gate, the
current storm surrounding Noma Restaurant. It
took us a time to address this because this conversation
is more complicated than the headline, more layered
than a viral post, and heavier than most people
think. In this episode, we'll read statements
from friends, colleagues, and cooks who have
worked with us or are currently working at Noma.
And if you stay with us until the end, we'll
touch on a few things that are not being discussed
publicly and that are the real reason it took
us this long to form a... clear opinion on this
whole matter or an open statement but first for
people who have been listening to the podcast
for for a while or maybe even since the beginning
it's no news that we've touched upon the topic
of abusive environments in uh in gastronomy and
hospitality since the very very beginning because
it is unfortunately such a big topic it's one
of the most prevalent topics i think in you know
in kitchen and cooking culture which is crazy
to think about if you you know um if you make
the statement and you know we started this podcast
almost um with a you know a series of episodes
that we called the line where we were sharing
our own stories of abuse. And we did it with
a little bit of a comical undertone because that's
kind of how I think you and I dealt with it best.
And we've come out relatively unscathed apart
from some psychological scars, you know, that
we're maybe aware of, maybe not. I don't know.
But obviously that's not the case for everybody.
Not everybody can deal with it in that sort of
way. But it's always been a big... effort of
ours to voice this topic in the industry and
that's why you know with all these stories surfacing
at the moment through various channels on social
media not all of these channels seem very um
very honest and that's why we wanted to take
the opportunity to give a voice to some of these
stories, as Eric mentioned, from colleagues and
friends of ours who have worked at NOMA or are
currently at NOMA, for them to hold some space.
Just for context, so what's been going on with
NOMA in the past weeks? Like two weeks ago from
now, I think, or maybe a week and a half? This
guy, Jason Ignacio White. Started posting a lot
of testimonies, statements from people that work
at Nova, abuse stories in different contexts.
We have our own opinion on this person, and we'll
address it at the very end. But just to say our
opinions about these statements, these accusations,
and who is sharing these stories, I have to say
from after... Getting stories from different
persons, I would say that there's a lot of truth
to it. There are many things that happened, for
sure. And yeah, so we can start with some of
the messages that we have here. And I'll start
with the first one. So this one is a close friend
and one of the best and most technical chefs
that I know. And this is what he says. He says,
my overall experience there was positive. If
you ask me whether it was abusive, I'd say medium
to low. There was definitely pressure, a lot
of shouting. That part is true. Rene has that
tendency and under stress, it gets worse. I saw
him push people. I saw a few fists to the stomach.
And when he said this, I asked him, OK, like
fists, how? Because I think this is also relevant.
You know, it's not the same. We're friends and
I push you and I hit you. And it's not the same
that I knock you down. You know, like there are
degrees. And I think it's also important to calibrate
this because also the punishment legally is different.
You know, if a judge is going to send you to
jail, it will be different depending on the degree
of the aggression. So it's important to point
this out. And I ask him, like, were these like
fake punches, fake fists or like real fight?
fists and he said not fake but not something
that would cause serious damage either more like
when drunk friends don't measure their strength
properly physical yes but not in a way that felt
like someone was trying to seriously injure someone
in the three months that i was there i saw maybe
three or four incidents like that it wasn't every
day it wasn't every week at least not that i
saw I never saw the same person being targeted
repeatedly. Although I'm sure things happened
outside of my view. There was a lot of shouting.
That's undeniable. But I've seen worse in other
kitchens. For me, it also depends on who you
are as a person and what attitude you bring.
Some people handle that environment differently.
That's just what I saw. And this guy said for
him, it was a positive experience. So what are
your comments on this one? That's fucking crazy,
man. Hey, I'm sorry. Like, I don't know if my
opinions just changed so much over the years.
You know, I've also been in, you know, when I
was working in Japan, you know, people would
get choked and kicked and beaten and stuff like
that. And I think calling any sort of physical
touch medium to low abusive is crazy to me. Honestly,
there shouldn't be any circumstance where anybody
lays a finger on you at all. Not even like nothing.
Not even like grabbing your arm or like whatever.
I think none of that is okay. That's intense.
I completely agree with you. Like, and I have
to say, like, I have some, within certain contexts
and limits, I have some tolerance for some things,
you know, that like, I don't know. I have to
think about this guy that threw my freshly made
20 liter tomato sauce to the sink. Because he
thought it was to throw to the thing. But even
in that case, I went crazy and I started screaming.
But I was screaming like, what did you do? You
know, like, why did you do that? But, you know,
it's completely different than going into personal
insults or physical contact. You know, like,
I think that's an absolute no -go. And I think
that should be punishable by law. You know, and
that's also interesting because I did some research
on this. And I was asking, according to Danish
laws, what is the legal punishment if an owner
or a manager punches in the stomach a worker
with that intensity that was described here?
And it said it could be two months jail, depending
on what it was. Also some damage compensation
if there are, let's say, diagnosed psychological
injuries. I think that's after punishment for
something like this, two months in jail, next
time you will think a little better. You will
keep your hand in your pocket. Two months is
a long time to be in jail for punishing somebody.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm not saying that it's
not fair. Yeah, you'll think about it. But the
other part, and this is interesting because I
think I have here the year, this guy was in Noma
about in 2011. Okay. From the statements that
I have, the nearer the time, the less these kind
of things happen. And this, if it's more than
five years, then it's not, it's free of charge,
legal charge. It can, you know, like it's, it
already prescribed. So there is no legal. So
it's not that the person is innocent, but I mean
that the only punishment can be reputational,
which is already happening. Absolutely. Oh, yeah,
of course. Yeah. You know, I think also it's
important to note that abuse is not defined by
anybody but the person being abused. I do believe
in that. To a certain extent, I mean, to a certain
extreme. If it gets very extreme, it's a little
bit more difficult. But, you know, this friend
of yours, he's saying like, oh, it didn't happen
so often, maybe once a week, you know. I think
if it happens once a year, like it's enough,
you know. And it doesn't have to be physical,
you know. Like for this person, like all the
screaming and stuff is not so bad, you know.
I'm used to people screaming in the kitchen,
you know. Does that mean that somebody who is...
like it can't take that is like that's abuse
for them is that valid of course it is of course
it is like absolutely if like somebody shouts
at you you're a piece of shit fuck you move fucking
faster you know starts insulting you or just
like it's it's um it's confrontational it's aggressive
somebody's shouting at you of course of course
abuse you know and it's important i think with
these stories to understand this the Only person
who can define what is abusive or not is a person
being abused. Obviously, there are very extreme
examples also. I remember the story of this girl.
It made headlines when I was in the UK, when
I was working in London. And she worked at the
Fat Duck. And she made a big call out that the
Fat Duck was abusing her. And so I read the article
and I actually got interviewed about this. And
it was sort of like, well... What do you think
about the situation? And I was like, well, what
is she saying? And she's like, well, she said
that she had to work in a room with no windows
for a very long time. She had to make repetitive
jobs that hurt her hand. She had to pick a lot
of herbs and make like the same garnish over
and over again and blah, blah, blah. And I was
like, hmm, okay, so she's working in one of the
best restaurants in the world. That's like the...
She's working on the garnish section of one of
the best wrestlers in the world. I wouldn't call
that abuse necessarily. And also you previously
agreed to that, you know, like also the thing,
you know, these people saying, yeah, modern slavery
because they're working for free. Well, you agreed
to that. You, you should have known where you're,
what you're getting into. And I mean, you can't
judge the Olympics teams with the same standard
you judge or you, you, you, the parameters that
you. set standards for a football, a school football
team, you know, like. Absolutely. It's not the
same thing, you know, like it's not the same
children's paintball team than the Navy Shield.
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's like, it's like,
uh, playing for Bayern Munich and then complaining,
oh, I had to run all day. It was really hard.
I had to train loads, you know, but that doesn't
mean, you know, that doesn't mean that, um. You
know, if you go somewhere and you go to a very
famous restaurant that for some reason, because
of the fame and the prestige that this restaurant
had, they are entitled to treat you a certain
way. And I think there we have to draw the line.
It can be verbal. It should never, ever be physical.
That's so extreme. Absolutely. And I think also
so coward, you know, and so low, you know, like,
because you're doing this with the security that
the other person won't fight back. So you're
not in equality of condition, so that makes you
basically a coward. And so unprofessional. So
unskillful also. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like
this reel that we recently posted where Eric
repaired this thing, Gordon Ramsay, and he says,
like, it just shows that you haven't mastered
yourself, basically. I wanted to mention, you
know, there is this Spanish movie about abuse
that is called Take My Eyes. And it's interesting
because in that movie, there is no physical aggression
at any moment, but it's so violent. It's so crazily
violent. It's so scary. But you see the screamings,
you know, if I start screaming and punching the
wall and throwing things and creating a threatening
atmosphere, not only to the person that is being
the object of the abuse, but for the whole environment,
for everyone is in a threatened environment.
That's also. and very violent, you know? It's
crazy. It can be really crazy. 100%. 100%. So
let's go to the next statement. So this one,
young, talented, very intellectual chef, a friend
of mine, he says, I asked him the same question,
and he said, I wouldn't call it just moderately
abusive. Toxic personalities are often protected,
and the culture is clearly reinforced from the
top. The structures are rigid. Human resources
is closely tied to René's mother -in -law and
inner circle. Intern housing was at least at
some point connected to the restaurant and sometimes
paid in cash. There are people who've held very
high positions for years despite openly toxic
traits. There's also a strong undercurrent of
machismo and the language can feel outdated.
Much of what Jason is saying is true. In my opinion,
he's doing important work. And many of us who
passed through those doors support him. It was
about time. Jason built his reputation on his
own merit, independent of the restaurant. Serious
industry players work with him because of his
work. And if people continue to stun by him publicly,
it's likely because they believe something needs
to be challenged. Even if that means confronting
the power structure and the bubble around the
place. What do you have to say about this one?
Yeah, I think, I mean, first of all, I don't
know what this guy Jason, like building his own
merit has to do with the topic at all. Like,
it's just a very strange comment to make to like
regarding to this, this topic, because it has
nothing to do with that. Nobody's talking about
his merit or whatnot. I think that, you know,
we will get later to the fact why we don't endorse
this person. At least me. I don't want to speak
for you, obviously, but why I have issues endorsing
this person. And that is also why we both kind
of refrained from publicly speaking out. At the
end of the day, whether this guy is genuine or
a good person or whatever, you know, the fact
that stories are coming to life and people feel
like they can speak out is a good thing. And
the way that stories surface. shouldn't taint
the stories themselves in my opinion i think
that people can speak out is good everything
else comes after that yeah like i agree with
you and let's get into into let's say my negative
impressions about jason later but to say the
positive ones i do think that what he's doing
is important uh i do think that is It's having
an impact and opening a conversation that is
very important. Just look at us. We're having
that conversation. I do think that it's important
that some of these people are pointed out. I
knew this kitchen was tough, but like I said,
I can't. I can tolerate the screamings in some
context within like a high pressure environment.
But when it gets to personal insults or physical
aggression, for me, that's a no -go, an absolutely
no -go. So next one. Who was this again? Okay,
this was an indirect contact. This was, you know,
like a friend told me. uh, talk to this guy.
So I contacted him and, and like, I asked him
for his comment and he says, in my time there,
nothing happened to me personally that affected
me directly. I remember a couple of situations
being addressed openly. This was in 2020. Okay.
I, I, I heard that at this point things change
because I think there was already like a scandal
at some point. So there were really looking up
to, to change things. Um, so I continue reading.
He says, At one point, the entire team was gathered
and it was made very clear that bullying, racism,
homophobia, or any kind of discriminatory behavior
would not be tolerated. From what I saw, there
was an effort to set boundaries and make expectations
explicit. To be honest, I enjoyed my internship.
For me, it was a positive experience. That said,
it's no secret that that generation of restaurants,
not just this one, inherited a culture that could
be very toxic. There were many different behaviors
and standards coexisting at the same time. I
don't think I'm the right person to speak out
about specific abuse cases. The people who went
through those experiences are the ones who should
tell those stories. I can only speak for what
I lived. Yeah, I mean, for sure. You know, I
know a lot of people who had a very good experience
at Noma, you know. I currently work with somebody
who had a very good experience at Noma very recently.
It just took a few years ago. But obviously,
you know, that doesn't change anything about
the people who have been abused there, you know.
I mean, one thing doesn't cancel out the other.
Vice versa, you know. It's, you know, we both
know what it is. You know, you worked in some
really, really tough kitchens. I worked in some
tough kitchens. It gets like the what's accepted
and not and like what seems normal gets so distorted.
Even nowadays, sometimes I really have to check
myself because things just get out of hand, you
know, and never out of hand like this. I've never
ever in my career gotten physical with anybody.
No, me neither. You know, like and also I've
never said a personal insult. I've never said
you fucking idiot. You know, like. In a work
environment? What the fuck? You know, like, like
directly? I mean, in the back of someone, of
course, but to their face? Have I? Have I, Phil?
Why are you looking at me like that? No, you.
I believe you. Did I tell you I'm a fucking idiot
at some point? Oh, yes, I did. No. No, no, no.
I'm just thinking about myself. I mean, I've
definitely done that many times. uh yeah no for
sure and it's um it's it's not okay but what
i have to say is that i i've i've had like very
violent reactions you know like sometimes not
not a direct insult but but saying fuse your
fucking thing you asked for you know like that
that's very violent you know like that yeah that
can break someone who's not prepared to take
like a comment in a tone like that you know like
yes for sure and so next one This guy I'm reading
now, he's a close friend. He's a San Pellegrino
50 -Best restaurant leader. He's leading the
kitchen. So he says, the rhythm was intense.
The hours were long. If you fell behind, you
were replaced. There was no violence, but no
tolerance for mediocrity. Criticism could be
harsh, but it was about performance. I once ruined
a truffle because I was too slow and it told
exactly how much money I had wasted. Some days
I drank 10 espressos just to stay awake. He was
19 years old when he went. What stayed with me
wasn't the exhaustion. It was the passion, the
respect for product, the belief that work is
a virtue and perfection matters. It was a turning
point, not for technique, but for discipline,
organization, and respect for the craft. Everything
I built afterward carries that structure. It
was demanding. but it changed my life positively,
and honestly, I would go back. You just mentioned,
like, a lot of people have had, like, a positive
impression, and I also have to say, like, for
example, if you see TripAdvisor reviews, I think
you can't, they will put down reviews if they
discover that you're an ex -worker, because that's
also, like, a common thing, that ex -workers...
I resented to the company that maybe you were
fired or maybe, you know, like, and as far as
I understand, this guy Jason was fired. And that
also adds context to the motivation and everything,
you know, like. So next one, this guy is one
of the best chefs I've ever met. Very, very technical.
Is it me? Not only like, not only you. And this
guy, he has worked in high positions, like in
senior positions and some of the best restaurants
in the world. Okay. Like, and from a very young
age. And he says, when I arrived, I already had
experience in high level kitchens. I had worked
in demanding places before. So intensity didn't
shock me. What shocked me was the contradiction.
From the outside, everything looked respectful,
sustainability, product worship, human values.
But inside. What I saw felt different. The waste
was extreme. Lobsters thrown away because the
tail was slightly damaged. Apples discarded used
to use the skins while perfectly good fruit went
into the trash. Huge bags of product wasted daily.
For a restaurant that spoke constantly about
sustainability, that gap felt absurd. I also
saw public humiliation. I watched Rene insult.
Insult senior chefs in front of the entire team.
Not constructive criticism. Insults. I saw people
reduced in front of others. Respect for people
felt non -existent. Schedules were surreal. Some
people worked from 6 in the morning until 1 at
night. The pressure was constant. The atmosphere
felt forced. Almost theatrical. Like an image
being maintained. What unsettled me most was
the hypocrisy. Speaking publicly about ethics
and sustainability while operating in a way that
felt careless and wasteful internally, it didn't
match. This guy was around 2015, more or less,
maybe earlier. I had read interviews before arriving
and expected something evolved, progressive,
almost revolutionary. The food was excellent,
no doubt about that. But everything surrounding
it felt precarious, even absurd at times. For
me, the biggest disappointment wasn't the hardness.
I've worked in hard places. It was the lack of
alignment between what was said and what was
lived. This was a tough one. Yeah, that's rough.
But it resonates with me so much because I've
had the exact same experience definitely very
strongly in two places, which at that time...
When I was there, one was 2013, the other one
was 2016. Internationally, like some of the most
famous restaurants in the world, one in Spain,
one in Sweden. And the image that is projected
to the outside world and what is actually happening
behind uh behind the curtains was completely
different and i was so the first time especially
i was so de -illusionized it was crazy i really
i drank the kool -aid you know like before i
i got there i believed it all i was very young
i was very naive you know but like i really believed
that these guys like would go out into the garden
and pick herbs with tweezers and like little
japanese scissors i really believed that i really
believed that you know these guys would like
go out and dig carrots out of the ground one
hour before service and um the reality was you
know the local like supermarket just bringing
like the box standard fucking carrots but like
supermarket like a proper supermarket you know
like a like a little or like an edeka you know
um just delivering the carrots and i was like
really wow that's uh that's crazy So I really
get it. I really get it. This whole marketing,
we spoke about it before, not too long ago, the
whole marketing, the whole idea, the whole storytelling
of a restaurant and the actual operation behind
it. But, you know, I mean, I think like what
this person is describing, throwing away whole
lobster tails, like only using the skin of apples,
that's intense. You know, that's not good. I
want to go back to the punches, you know, because
that for me is the most impactful thing about
this whole story. And to be honest, I don't think,
well, and we can also talk about, do you think,
what do you think will happen to Rene Redzepi?
Like I already spoke that legally, probably there's
no chance that something is possible at this
point. I don't know if maybe if there were like,
you know, like. If there are diagnoses of psychological
damage and somebody's printing that out, maybe
that's a case, but I'm not sure. It depends on
the period. But yeah, I wanted to say why I believe
these stories in the first place, because one
of my friends that I will quote, I think, next
or at some point, he told me one of these stories
back in 2016, around there. He was there around
2011 or something, and he told me somebody made
a really big mistake. and and renee pushed him
and he punched him in the ribs and this punch
in the ribs you know it's something very specific
it's not something you hear often right um but
yeah like they say um many of this uh stories
that that popped up there was also punch in the
ribs uh stories so that's why i said okay this
has to be true there's no question that this
is true but What do you think can happen now?
I don't think this is the end of him at all.
I think this is the problem with these figures,
that they're national heroes and they change
completely culinary landscapes. I mean, Copenhagen
was not on the map. It's not something that he
did alone, but he was for sure the visible face
of a movement, right? And it's like, I was talking
earlier with Xander, the producer, that... Imagine
you have like that. That's maybe the reason why
most people don't stand up and talk is because
there is a you're closing doors. You know, like
imagine you have like a football store in Argentina
and you say something against Maradona. You publicly
are an activist against Maradona. Nobody will
go to your store. Right. And I think these things
can happen. Like if you're a journalist or whatever
or. Or you want to open a restaurant in Copenhagen
and you speak up against the Noma ecosystem.
So it's a matter, I think, of course, there are
victims that are extreme cases that have severe
psychological damage. I'm not questioning that.
But I think the main motivation is interest.
It's not in your interest. It's not in my interest.
I know stories that are worse than the ones that
are popping up here, here in the Spain ecosystem.
And I wouldn't speak against these figures because
it's against my interests. And at the end of
the day, I wasn't personally a victim. I heard
the stories that happened in those places. And
yeah, I wouldn't go there. I wouldn't earn anything.
I wouldn't change anything. And I would lose
a lot of things. And that's the dilemma. That's
the problem. And I think that's what makes this
whole thing so complex. Yeah, I totally get where
you're coming from. I mean, I don't know if you
saw this email that went around about, you know,
about like the sort of like internship contract
code of conduct kind of thing with the part that
says like, hey, like if something happens and
we kick you out, you'll be blacklisted, you know,
from here and from other restaurants and stuff.
And I've seen that. That's probably illegal,
right? Like that has to be illegal. I've signed
contracts like that. um so that's definitely
a thing um but like you know for me you know
for me it's it's very it's very sad because um
on one side i am a huge fan of noma the brand
and the work the many many many years of work
and the change that have the positive change
that they've brought yeah you know the books
like the the aesthetic the the techniques so
much right um so it makes me very sad that all
these to hear what is like you know the sort
of things that happen behind behind closed doors
and in my opinion what i think should happen
with renee is that if these uh you know all of
these allegations are true is that he should
step down he should he's not fit to be head chef
he should step away from the business of Noma,
and somebody should take the lead who can manage
people in a sustainable, in a human way. As far
as I know, this issue has been addressed, or
this hypothesis. Like, is Noma a restaurant that
could go on without Rene Redzepi? I think he
said it in an interview, and he said yes. And
I think it's the best thing he can do right now,
you know, like become a... an advisor of the
board, something like that. You're like a kind
of godfather figure that is not operational anymore.
That's the best you could do for the business
right now with these whole things because this
shitstorm has hit really hard. And for himself
also. Yeah, like, I mean, at the end of the day,
Maradona, nobody can say that Maradona is a bad
football player because of all of the questionable
things he made, right? And I think here is the
same case. Nobody can question that. And also
like the impact and the legacy. But yeah, like
it's counterproductive, you know, like, and I
think if many of these cases happened more than
five years ago, I think it has to be, if that's
the case, I can't say that's the case. I don't
know. But I think it's really shit for the people
that is working around him, you know, like for
whatever reason they want to be, have him around.
And now this thing's explodes and, you know,
like it really affects your, your work and your
team and, and, and your whole thing, you know,
you all, all your efforts and everything. Yeah,
totally. Totally. But no, I think it's, it's,
it would be the best. um for for the restaurant
but also probably for himself you know i mean
like he clearly needs therapy he needs to step
down he's not able to um not able to fill out
the role that he's currently holding in a way
that is acceptable you know if you can only do
the job that you're doing by punching people
and shouting at people then something is very
fundamentally rotten and you really need to take
the time to look at that Can you imagine a surgeon
punching nurses because somebody dies in the
ER room, in the emergency room? Nothing that
has ever happened in Noma is that serious, like
somebody dying on a surgeon table. It really
isn't. It's just not, it doesn't make any sense
at all. You know, like, what makes you think
it's so important that, you know, like a dish
went to the wrong table or that the... Turnip
was not properly peeled. What the fuck is wrong
with you, you know? It's crazy. 100%. So let's
talk about the guy that made this whole social
media explosion in these recent days. We're going
to mention going forward in a couple of comments
this person named Jason who we're naming by name
just because he so publicly is coming out with
all these stories. And some of these... accounts
of people who have worked with him that are quite
negative can get a little bit rough we're not
sharing these to drag him down or to necessarily
attack him we just want to share all stories
equally and put things into a little bit of context
also the reason why we don't like so many of
our peers and colleagues, are publicly endorsing
him. We cannot publicly endorse somebody even
though the effect of what he's doing is ultimately
positive, which is these stories coming to light.
We both have talked, Eric and I, and we have
an issue endorsing somebody publicly who is facing
the same kind of abusive allegations than the
people that he's you know, accusing himself.
But none of this is meant to, you know, drag
anybody into the dirt. It is just to put things
into context. Yeah, I think what he's doing is
very important. And I do think it's having an
impact. And I think that this conversation should
be more common, more open. Everybody should talk
about this. This thing should be addressed in
kitchens whenever something like this happens.
There should be mechanisms. There should be tools.
There should be a lot of things to prevent the
situations to happen. And I think just having
this conversation and boosting this conversation
is very positive. And for that, I say, nice one.
There are other parts of the story that are important
also to tell, especially seeing the aggressivity
he's telling these things. Well, there are some
things here to be said as well. I want to put
context from my perspective. Jason Ignacio White,
he worked, I think, around 2021, around that
time, maybe two or three years around that time
at NOMA. fermentation lab uh as far as i know
at the beginning with david silver then he stayed
in in the lab this guy he reached out to us and
he said he wanted to i like i like what you guys
are doing uh i would like to participate in your
show maybe an interview and we saw like okay
nice content nice number of followers whatever
it sounded like an like an interesting profile
yeah like And then we asked around and a lot
of people told us to stay away from that guy.
And it was like, okay, like if people you trust
tell you that, maybe there is a reason for that.
At least that's the way I experienced it. I don't
know what you have to say, Phil. Yeah, same.
You know, the thing is that, again, it's great
that these stories are surfacing, but... you
know jason has been trying to slander noma in
ways that have nothing to do with abuse for for
a really long time and i started following him
he started following me um and i was like okay
interesting content and then he had a weird like
burst of um stories that were sort of like every
recipe from noma is shit blah blah blah their
books are shit this is shit you know like And
I was like, okay, and I asked a couple of people,
and they told me that, yeah, a very, very problematic
guy, that he got fired from Noma, that they had
to, you know, stop the internship program at
the Noma Projects lab because he was abusing
people. You know, that is also why when I saw
that he was reaching out, I was like, okay, cool.
Like I said earlier, I think it is great regardless
of how it happens that these stories are surfacing.
I think that is very good. I think it is a little
bit tainted, though, because if your own laundry
isn't clean, you know, don't go pointing around
your fingers. It is crazy to me that he is placating
himself like the savior in Saint. the whole way
that he's doing it is so self -satisfied and
so self -serving like it for me it really feels
like he is just using other people's traumatic
experiences for his own gain and that is something
that i just really really can't stand behind
this whole like we will create a new movement
like i'm i'm working with this legal team i'm
gonna go and put on a bloody chef's jacket and
um i think that's a little bit a little bit disgusting
considering the kind of stories that people have
shared with him and entrusted him with yeah i
also have to say like for me it was crazy um
that people told us like yeah this guy committed
some abuses while while at noma and then like
i had no context and then suddenly like This
happened like, I don't know, maybe two months,
maybe six weeks later. After this, it was like
this whole explosion of comments and things around
these stories. And then I saw a story that I
recognized. It was like, aha, I saw this story
two years ago. A friend showed me this, this
story about the Dutch girl with the burnt face.
And she told me like, what do you think about
this? And I see the story and it was like, yeah,
this happened. Also that story, if you listen,
if you read that story, it's like, yeah, this
girl. was crying in the bathroom and then the
head chefs were laughing and I forced them to
call an ambulance. This narrative that he's a
hero and a savior that is saving the world is
like, I don't know. Rick looks fake to me, you
know, like, but yeah, then the thing is that
she showed me that picture and then the story,
the next one was, and by the way, Renee, you
have a small dick. And it was like, And she asked
me, like, what do you think about this? And I
was like, for me, it looks like a crazy ex -boyfriend.
You know, like, what do I have to say about this?
Like, first, you're making very, very serious
accusations. And then you're talking, you know,
you're responding insults or verbal abuse. For
me, that's not like a serious way to try to get
justice. You know, it's just like a crazy ex
-boyfriend going crazy. So let me go to the first
story. This is a very close friend that I trust
very much. And he says, Jason, what a character.
Honestly, I've always got along super well with
him. But when he left, he started being a super
hater. Let's see. I think everything he posts
and uploads is true. The real facts, which I
experienced some of too. It was in 2011 or so.
I imagine he'll tell you about them at some point.
But that doesn't... No, I imagine... I told you
about them at some point. But that doesn't take
away from all the good things I had. Noma changed
my life in a very positive way, despite having
seen things like the ones mentioned in the post.
In Copenhagen, Jason and I always got along well,
even more so after David Silver left. But when
he left, he went into a mega psycho -hater loop.
Then I asked him, yes, I told my friend, I...
Kind of get the feeling, too, that he's not right
in the head. And he says, clearly not. He ended
up super resentful with Noma, too, because according
to him, they didn't give him the credit he deserved
and blah, blah. That's what he told me. This
was a WhatsApp conversation. I think it's easy
to have that read on the situation. If you see
the tone, like a lot of things, it feels like.
You know, like a resented ex -worker going crazy,
trying to get revenge because he was hurt. That's
what I see. Oh, yeah, clearly. I mean, you know,
like that's the thing. No, like he tried to do
it before as well from a different angle. You
know, he said that like basically he was like
the first time I saw it, he was like trashing
the normal books and he was like all the recipes
are shit. And he was also posting like direct
messages to him of people being sort of like.
oh, I tried the Noma chicken garum recipe and
it didn't work out. And him replying like, that's
a really shit recipe. Don't do that. All the
recipes in the Noma book are shit. I will give
you my recipe. Don't you worry. And it repeated
like that quite a few times, which, you know,
like let him be like resentful of Noma. You know,
what I just really have an issue with is like
the fact that he is condemning the abuse. as
anybody should, while there are these allegations
against him at the same time. Which brings me
to the next comment. Jason seems to have forgotten
the colleague that he tortured and humiliated
day in and day out for a month, who was on the
verge of quitting NOMA. I can't recall seeing
someone as broken as him, and I've worked in
rough places where I was screamed into my ear
almost daily. Jason is also guilty of the things
he is claiming. We are all human. We make our
mistakes and we almost face them. You know, like,
what the fuck, man? Yeah, I mean, this is a thing,
right? You know, the other day somebody said
sort of like, hey, it's really good that attention
is brought to this issue, but if the ship is
going down, Jason needs to go down with it. And
I think that puts it very well. Yeah, I think
he's doing... He's doing the right thing, but
in the wrong way and for the wrong reasons. You
know, he could approach this whole thing in a
different way. Maybe by starting saying mea culpa.
Like I was also, I'm also guilty. I'm an alcoholic.
Like I said earlier, it's so delicate when somebody
shares a story like this with you, you know.
It's very intimate and it's very personal. And
it can be very fragile also, you know, it can
be difficult. Surely it's very difficult for
a lot of people to speak out about this and then
to use it in such a way. And then also being
explicit with names and stuff like that. It's,
yeah, it's a bit difficult. By the way, the only
reason we're using his name here is because of
the context of the whole thing. And we think
the things are also important to be mentioned.
Uh, for the whole context of this whole story,
you know, like, like the, uh, it's very easy.
Like, like I said, when we last talk about this,
suddenly, um, Johnny Depp gets canceled and everybody's,
ah, fuck Johnny Depp, you know, and suddenly
there's a whole trial and at the end of everybody's,
ah, fuck his ex, you know, like, and that's the
way crowds and social media works, you know,
like, and it's very stupid. For sure. For sure.
So next one, this is a co -worker that worked
for a while with Jason hand to hand. And he says,
Jason White is a psychopath and a pathological
liar. He has burned every bridge he's ever come
across and he has several restraining orders
against him. You know, and for me, this is also
interesting that, you know, like. Whenever you
know people, you know, you know people, you might
like people, you might dislike people. But when
there is someone that out of 10 people, six tell
you that this kind of things like this guy is
a psycho or this guy is a liar or this guy is
not OK in the head. You know, like, of course,
you do your own judgment. You know, like, I don't
know this guy, Jason. Like we we since this whole
thing began, we have talked a couple of things
on direct messages on Instagram. But that's all.
I have no relation or no connection to him at
all. But yeah, when people you trust tell you
these kind of things, you ask yourself questions.
That's the reason we didn't invite him to the
show before this whole thing, because he had
the right profile, he wanted to talk about the
right topics, but some people warned us, and
I'm actually happy we didn't, to be honest. Also,
somebody, some of his very good friends told
me, like, bring him to the show. He will give
you controversy. And it was like, well, we're
not here for the controversy, you know? Yeah,
we're not here for the controversy. We're not
here for the clout. And, you know, despite what
some people have, like, said in comments about
us talking about it, we're also not here for
clicks of views, you know? Like, we've never,
we've always... spoke our mind about topics exactly
how we think it we don't really give a shit if
you agree with our opinion we don't give a shit
if you if it fits the general narrative um the
the whole point of the show was from the very
beginning for us to just talk about things exactly
the way that we think about them um and the last
thing that i personally would want to do is um
give stage to somebody that i i just don't want
to endorse you know Yeah, also, like, some things
that I also heard of him, yeah, that apparently
he was fired because he would disappear a lot
from the lab. And one day he wasn't there and
we came back. Rene gave him a lot of shit, like,
a lot. And I don't know if he was fired or he
never got back because he quit. Like, I don't
have the detail. And I also heard that he created
like an environment of rivalry between the lab
and the kitchen and that it was him. Like before
and after him, there was no such thing. You know,
like a conflictive character who is taking the
flag of being the savior against conflict. You
know, and that's for me also like the fucked
up part of this whole thing. And the last comment
that I have, It says, Jason treated interns poorly.
He was often dismissive and didn't acknowledge
staff. And he was ultimately let go because of
his behavior. Given that context, his motives
may be driven more by resentment than by a genuine
desire to help. And that's also the way I see
it. Yeah, that was my impression as well. when
he sent me some voice messages, when we were
talking, he told me like, I know there's no vendetta,
no, nothing of this is going on. And I'm like,
I, and I, and also the comments, some people
that have commented to us, like they, there's
like a very clear and evident personal motivation
in all of this, you know, like it's, it's not
motivated by justice or by. trying to to save
uh the victims or whatever it's it's personal
it's you know like uh yeah that's that's the
way i see it yeah yeah and it's a shame you know
because at the end of the day it is it is good
that this gets talked about and it is good that
maybe something happens for these things to change
um and um and yeah um at the end of the day um
more people should come out with this there should
be more of an acceptance there should be less
fear about speaking out about this um i hope
that we in the near future in the restaurant
industry move away from this whole like boys
club mentality where you can't speak out about
injustice just because somebody's famous or somebody
cooks food well like what the fuck does that
mean it's like like what the fuck are we even
talking about you know you make a plate real
look real nice and real tasty and so you can
treat people like shit when is going to be the
time that we like move away from the shit shed
all this like superficial nonsense and just focus
on a profession that is actually really beautiful
and really enjoyable um and one of the most enjoyable
parts of this profession being working closely
with other professionals who are creatives and
craftsmen and an exchange between those people
in a positive working environment you know like
it really doesn't have to be so fucking difficult
and it really doesn't have to be so fucking petty
yeah i think the the solution is first of all
um people like like renee or jason himself uh
should step forward and say I'm an alcoholic.
I've been abusive to my co -workers. I've been
a cunt. I can say it myself. I've treated people
poorly. I've made things aggressively and also
in times with the intention of making the other
people feel bad. I've done that. I've been there.
And saying that openly, I think that's the first
step. And on the other side, I think... There
should be mechanisms to address these things
at the moment, not five years after they happened.
If they happened more than five years ago, I
don't know that. That's what I kind of get with
the information that I have, but I might be wrong.
It could be wrong. I don't know. But that's my
interpretation of the people I asked. This thing
should be, if a chef punches a cook, that guy
should spend that night in jail, period. That's
what should happen. That's my opinion. That night
and for the next two months, according to, in
this case, of Danish law or whatever, you know,
like, and you think it twice next time. Yeah.
And, you know, like, to you who's... i'm sure
to you who's listening and who's thinking secretly
to himself fuck like i've done this i've done
that because we do come up in an environment
that is toxic you know um it's okay to have issues
and it's okay for you to admit them to yourself
and to make a change you know like nothing is
keeping you in destruction it's not easy necessarily
to break out of something that you have been
in for maybe many, many years, like it is the
case with many professionals and was the case
with me also, right? That you come in, like you
come up in this profession in an abusive structure
and you carry forth unhealthy habits and make
a change. You can do it. It's okay to self -reflect.
It's okay to ask for help also. Betterhelp .com,
you know, get some help, sort yourself out. whatever
you want to not sponsored yet but maybe soon
um it doesn't make you it doesn't make you weaker
it doesn't make you worse as a manager the opposite
actually it makes you stronger and better and
um only good things will come from that and it's
a choice that you can make every single day um
you just have to do it stay in school don't do
drugs call your mom