WEBVTT 00:00:04.169 --> 00:00:06.650 Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks, the 00:00:06.650 --> 00:00:09.070 show where we talk food and kitchens from a cook's 00:00:09.070 --> 00:00:12.449 point of view. We're recording live from a place 00:00:12.449 --> 00:00:15.269 where excellence is sacred, fear is efficient, 00:00:15.509 --> 00:00:18.769 and silence is often part of the uniform. My 00:00:18.769 --> 00:00:21.789 name is Erich Hönnecke, and I'm here with Philippe 00:00:21.789 --> 00:00:25.230 K. Dick. Neither of us is sure what's real anymore. 00:00:25.429 --> 00:00:27.269 And today we're finally talking about what some 00:00:27.269 --> 00:00:29.829 people are already calling the Noma Gate, the 00:00:29.829 --> 00:00:33.250 current storm surrounding Noma Restaurant. It 00:00:33.250 --> 00:00:36.210 took us a time to address this because this conversation 00:00:36.210 --> 00:00:39.890 is more complicated than the headline, more layered 00:00:39.890 --> 00:00:43.109 than a viral post, and heavier than most people 00:00:43.109 --> 00:00:45.509 think. In this episode, we'll read statements 00:00:45.509 --> 00:00:49.030 from friends, colleagues, and cooks who have 00:00:49.030 --> 00:00:51.649 worked with us or are currently working at Noma. 00:00:51.890 --> 00:00:54.369 And if you stay with us until the end, we'll 00:00:54.369 --> 00:00:56.770 touch on a few things that are not being discussed 00:00:56.770 --> 00:00:59.670 publicly and that are the real reason it took 00:00:59.670 --> 00:01:02.659 us this long to form a... clear opinion on this 00:01:02.659 --> 00:01:12.180 whole matter or an open statement but first for 00:01:12.180 --> 00:01:20.599 people who have been listening to the podcast 00:01:20.599 --> 00:01:23.959 for for a while or maybe even since the beginning 00:01:23.959 --> 00:01:27.019 it's no news that we've touched upon the topic 00:01:27.019 --> 00:01:31.219 of abusive environments in uh in gastronomy and 00:01:31.219 --> 00:01:33.640 hospitality since the very very beginning because 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:37.079 it is unfortunately such a big topic it's one 00:01:37.079 --> 00:01:40.579 of the most prevalent topics i think in you know 00:01:40.579 --> 00:01:43.719 in kitchen and cooking culture which is crazy 00:01:43.719 --> 00:01:46.739 to think about if you you know um if you make 00:01:46.739 --> 00:01:50.579 the statement and you know we started this podcast 00:01:50.579 --> 00:01:53.780 almost um with a you know a series of episodes 00:01:53.780 --> 00:01:55.659 that we called the line where we were sharing 00:01:56.219 --> 00:01:58.500 our own stories of abuse. And we did it with 00:01:58.500 --> 00:02:01.439 a little bit of a comical undertone because that's 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:04.620 kind of how I think you and I dealt with it best. 00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:08.520 And we've come out relatively unscathed apart 00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:11.860 from some psychological scars, you know, that 00:02:11.860 --> 00:02:13.800 we're maybe aware of, maybe not. I don't know. 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:16.259 But obviously that's not the case for everybody. 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:18.400 Not everybody can deal with it in that sort of 00:02:18.400 --> 00:02:24.900 way. But it's always been a big... effort of 00:02:24.900 --> 00:02:29.360 ours to voice this topic in the industry and 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:32.099 that's why you know with all these stories surfacing 00:02:32.099 --> 00:02:36.639 at the moment through various channels on social 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:41.900 media not all of these channels seem very um 00:02:41.900 --> 00:02:49.620 very honest and that's why we wanted to take 00:02:49.620 --> 00:02:52.000 the opportunity to give a voice to some of these 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:54.020 stories, as Eric mentioned, from colleagues and 00:02:54.020 --> 00:02:56.219 friends of ours who have worked at NOMA or are 00:02:56.219 --> 00:03:01.039 currently at NOMA, for them to hold some space. 00:03:01.259 --> 00:03:04.759 Just for context, so what's been going on with 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:09.099 NOMA in the past weeks? Like two weeks ago from 00:03:09.099 --> 00:03:11.699 now, I think, or maybe a week and a half? This 00:03:11.699 --> 00:03:15.819 guy, Jason Ignacio White. Started posting a lot 00:03:15.819 --> 00:03:18.939 of testimonies, statements from people that work 00:03:18.939 --> 00:03:22.000 at Nova, abuse stories in different contexts. 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:26.759 We have our own opinion on this person, and we'll 00:03:26.759 --> 00:03:30.280 address it at the very end. But just to say our 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:34.180 opinions about these statements, these accusations, 00:03:34.419 --> 00:03:39.719 and who is sharing these stories, I have to say 00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:43.400 from after... Getting stories from different 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:46.659 persons, I would say that there's a lot of truth 00:03:46.659 --> 00:03:50.159 to it. There are many things that happened, for 00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:54.580 sure. And yeah, so we can start with some of 00:03:54.580 --> 00:03:57.620 the messages that we have here. And I'll start 00:03:57.620 --> 00:04:01.120 with the first one. So this one is a close friend 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:04.699 and one of the best and most technical chefs 00:04:04.699 --> 00:04:08.039 that I know. And this is what he says. He says, 00:04:08.099 --> 00:04:11.270 my overall experience there was positive. If 00:04:11.270 --> 00:04:14.590 you ask me whether it was abusive, I'd say medium 00:04:14.590 --> 00:04:17.850 to low. There was definitely pressure, a lot 00:04:17.850 --> 00:04:20.769 of shouting. That part is true. Rene has that 00:04:20.769 --> 00:04:24.610 tendency and under stress, it gets worse. I saw 00:04:24.610 --> 00:04:29.310 him push people. I saw a few fists to the stomach. 00:04:29.750 --> 00:04:33.610 And when he said this, I asked him, OK, like 00:04:33.610 --> 00:04:37.069 fists, how? Because I think this is also relevant. 00:04:37.170 --> 00:04:39.720 You know, it's not the same. We're friends and 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:42.480 I push you and I hit you. And it's not the same 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:45.660 that I knock you down. You know, like there are 00:04:45.660 --> 00:04:49.660 degrees. And I think it's also important to calibrate 00:04:49.660 --> 00:04:52.980 this because also the punishment legally is different. 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:55.720 You know, if a judge is going to send you to 00:04:55.720 --> 00:04:58.560 jail, it will be different depending on the degree 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:00.579 of the aggression. So it's important to point 00:05:00.579 --> 00:05:03.459 this out. And I ask him, like, were these like 00:05:03.459 --> 00:05:08.540 fake punches, fake fists or like real fight? 00:05:08.920 --> 00:05:13.019 fists and he said not fake but not something 00:05:13.019 --> 00:05:16.279 that would cause serious damage either more like 00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:18.800 when drunk friends don't measure their strength 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:22.779 properly physical yes but not in a way that felt 00:05:22.779 --> 00:05:25.600 like someone was trying to seriously injure someone 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:29.100 in the three months that i was there i saw maybe 00:05:29.100 --> 00:05:33.500 three or four incidents like that it wasn't every 00:05:33.500 --> 00:05:35.779 day it wasn't every week at least not that i 00:05:35.779 --> 00:05:38.569 saw I never saw the same person being targeted 00:05:38.569 --> 00:05:41.370 repeatedly. Although I'm sure things happened 00:05:41.370 --> 00:05:44.029 outside of my view. There was a lot of shouting. 00:05:44.149 --> 00:05:46.850 That's undeniable. But I've seen worse in other 00:05:46.850 --> 00:05:49.069 kitchens. For me, it also depends on who you 00:05:49.069 --> 00:05:52.129 are as a person and what attitude you bring. 00:05:52.290 --> 00:05:54.470 Some people handle that environment differently. 00:05:54.910 --> 00:05:57.970 That's just what I saw. And this guy said for 00:05:57.970 --> 00:06:00.910 him, it was a positive experience. So what are 00:06:00.910 --> 00:06:03.589 your comments on this one? That's fucking crazy, 00:06:03.649 --> 00:06:08.319 man. Hey, I'm sorry. Like, I don't know if my 00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:11.500 opinions just changed so much over the years. 00:06:11.620 --> 00:06:13.759 You know, I've also been in, you know, when I 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:15.519 was working in Japan, you know, people would 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.040 get choked and kicked and beaten and stuff like 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:21.220 that. And I think calling any sort of physical 00:06:21.220 --> 00:06:27.300 touch medium to low abusive is crazy to me. Honestly, 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:29.600 there shouldn't be any circumstance where anybody 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:33.100 lays a finger on you at all. Not even like nothing. 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:36.199 Not even like grabbing your arm or like whatever. 00:06:36.339 --> 00:06:39.879 I think none of that is okay. That's intense. 00:06:40.339 --> 00:06:43.879 I completely agree with you. Like, and I have 00:06:43.879 --> 00:06:48.420 to say, like, I have some, within certain contexts 00:06:48.420 --> 00:06:51.100 and limits, I have some tolerance for some things, 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:54.000 you know, that like, I don't know. I have to 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:59.079 think about this guy that threw my freshly made 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:02.790 20 liter tomato sauce to the sink. Because he 00:07:02.790 --> 00:07:05.389 thought it was to throw to the thing. But even 00:07:05.389 --> 00:07:07.790 in that case, I went crazy and I started screaming. 00:07:07.870 --> 00:07:09.870 But I was screaming like, what did you do? You 00:07:09.870 --> 00:07:12.790 know, like, why did you do that? But, you know, 00:07:12.829 --> 00:07:15.970 it's completely different than going into personal 00:07:15.970 --> 00:07:19.389 insults or physical contact. You know, like, 00:07:19.490 --> 00:07:24.290 I think that's an absolute no -go. And I think 00:07:24.290 --> 00:07:27.889 that should be punishable by law. You know, and 00:07:27.889 --> 00:07:30.069 that's also interesting because I did some research 00:07:30.069 --> 00:07:35.250 on this. And I was asking, according to Danish 00:07:35.250 --> 00:07:40.050 laws, what is the legal punishment if an owner 00:07:40.050 --> 00:07:43.610 or a manager punches in the stomach a worker 00:07:43.610 --> 00:07:46.709 with that intensity that was described here? 00:07:46.889 --> 00:07:51.189 And it said it could be two months jail, depending 00:07:51.189 --> 00:07:55.740 on what it was. Also some damage compensation 00:07:55.740 --> 00:07:59.360 if there are, let's say, diagnosed psychological 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:05.319 injuries. I think that's after punishment for 00:08:05.319 --> 00:08:07.779 something like this, two months in jail, next 00:08:07.779 --> 00:08:10.379 time you will think a little better. You will 00:08:10.379 --> 00:08:12.600 keep your hand in your pocket. Two months is 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:14.600 a long time to be in jail for punishing somebody. 00:08:14.600 --> 00:08:17.879 Yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm not saying that it's 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:21.959 not fair. Yeah, you'll think about it. But the 00:08:21.959 --> 00:08:24.079 other part, and this is interesting because I 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:26.459 think I have here the year, this guy was in Noma 00:08:26.459 --> 00:08:31.240 about in 2011. Okay. From the statements that 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:34.080 I have, the nearer the time, the less these kind 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:37.820 of things happen. And this, if it's more than 00:08:37.820 --> 00:08:40.240 five years, then it's not, it's free of charge, 00:08:40.419 --> 00:08:43.919 legal charge. It can, you know, like it's, it 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:48.669 already prescribed. So there is no legal. So 00:08:48.669 --> 00:08:53.009 it's not that the person is innocent, but I mean 00:08:53.009 --> 00:08:55.269 that the only punishment can be reputational, 00:08:55.269 --> 00:08:58.169 which is already happening. Absolutely. Oh, yeah, 00:08:58.210 --> 00:09:00.690 of course. Yeah. You know, I think also it's 00:09:00.690 --> 00:09:07.649 important to note that abuse is not defined by 00:09:07.649 --> 00:09:12.210 anybody but the person being abused. I do believe 00:09:12.210 --> 00:09:15.919 in that. To a certain extent, I mean, to a certain 00:09:15.919 --> 00:09:17.700 extreme. If it gets very extreme, it's a little 00:09:17.700 --> 00:09:21.500 bit more difficult. But, you know, this friend 00:09:21.500 --> 00:09:24.200 of yours, he's saying like, oh, it didn't happen 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:26.980 so often, maybe once a week, you know. I think 00:09:26.980 --> 00:09:29.259 if it happens once a year, like it's enough, 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:33.600 you know. And it doesn't have to be physical, 00:09:33.700 --> 00:09:35.399 you know. Like for this person, like all the 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:37.080 screaming and stuff is not so bad, you know. 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:39.419 I'm used to people screaming in the kitchen, 00:09:39.500 --> 00:09:43.320 you know. Does that mean that somebody who is... 00:09:43.669 --> 00:09:46.970 like it can't take that is like that's abuse 00:09:46.970 --> 00:09:49.970 for them is that valid of course it is of course 00:09:49.970 --> 00:09:52.470 it is like absolutely if like somebody shouts 00:09:52.470 --> 00:09:54.710 at you you're a piece of shit fuck you move fucking 00:09:54.710 --> 00:09:57.529 faster you know starts insulting you or just 00:09:57.529 --> 00:10:02.809 like it's it's um it's confrontational it's aggressive 00:10:02.809 --> 00:10:05.570 somebody's shouting at you of course of course 00:10:05.570 --> 00:10:08.669 abuse you know and it's important i think with 00:10:08.669 --> 00:10:12.610 these stories to understand this the Only person 00:10:12.610 --> 00:10:15.389 who can define what is abusive or not is a person 00:10:15.389 --> 00:10:18.769 being abused. Obviously, there are very extreme 00:10:18.769 --> 00:10:22.269 examples also. I remember the story of this girl. 00:10:24.090 --> 00:10:26.929 It made headlines when I was in the UK, when 00:10:26.929 --> 00:10:29.190 I was working in London. And she worked at the 00:10:29.190 --> 00:10:33.269 Fat Duck. And she made a big call out that the 00:10:33.269 --> 00:10:36.669 Fat Duck was abusing her. And so I read the article 00:10:36.669 --> 00:10:38.450 and I actually got interviewed about this. And 00:10:38.450 --> 00:10:40.480 it was sort of like, well... What do you think 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:42.960 about the situation? And I was like, well, what 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:45.000 is she saying? And she's like, well, she said 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:47.559 that she had to work in a room with no windows 00:10:47.559 --> 00:10:50.460 for a very long time. She had to make repetitive 00:10:50.460 --> 00:10:53.860 jobs that hurt her hand. She had to pick a lot 00:10:53.860 --> 00:10:56.100 of herbs and make like the same garnish over 00:10:56.100 --> 00:10:58.620 and over again and blah, blah, blah. And I was 00:10:58.620 --> 00:11:01.539 like, hmm, okay, so she's working in one of the 00:11:01.539 --> 00:11:03.059 best restaurants in the world. That's like the... 00:11:03.389 --> 00:11:05.190 She's working on the garnish section of one of 00:11:05.190 --> 00:11:06.590 the best wrestlers in the world. I wouldn't call 00:11:06.590 --> 00:11:09.289 that abuse necessarily. And also you previously 00:11:09.289 --> 00:11:12.330 agreed to that, you know, like also the thing, 00:11:12.450 --> 00:11:15.070 you know, these people saying, yeah, modern slavery 00:11:15.070 --> 00:11:17.470 because they're working for free. Well, you agreed 00:11:17.470 --> 00:11:20.929 to that. You, you should have known where you're, 00:11:20.929 --> 00:11:24.830 what you're getting into. And I mean, you can't 00:11:24.830 --> 00:11:27.470 judge the Olympics teams with the same standard 00:11:27.470 --> 00:11:30.850 you judge or you, you, you, the parameters that 00:11:30.850 --> 00:11:34.340 you. set standards for a football, a school football 00:11:34.340 --> 00:11:37.919 team, you know, like. Absolutely. It's not the 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:39.759 same thing, you know, like it's not the same 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:42.559 children's paintball team than the Navy Shield. 00:11:43.139 --> 00:11:45.440 Absolutely. Absolutely. It's like, it's like, 00:11:45.460 --> 00:11:47.940 uh, playing for Bayern Munich and then complaining, 00:11:47.980 --> 00:11:50.000 oh, I had to run all day. It was really hard. 00:11:50.179 --> 00:11:53.039 I had to train loads, you know, but that doesn't 00:11:53.039 --> 00:11:56.360 mean, you know, that doesn't mean that, um. You 00:11:56.360 --> 00:11:58.299 know, if you go somewhere and you go to a very 00:11:58.299 --> 00:12:00.899 famous restaurant that for some reason, because 00:12:00.899 --> 00:12:02.799 of the fame and the prestige that this restaurant 00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:06.200 had, they are entitled to treat you a certain 00:12:06.200 --> 00:12:09.519 way. And I think there we have to draw the line. 00:12:09.580 --> 00:12:12.340 It can be verbal. It should never, ever be physical. 00:12:12.440 --> 00:12:15.559 That's so extreme. Absolutely. And I think also 00:12:15.559 --> 00:12:18.360 so coward, you know, and so low, you know, like, 00:12:18.379 --> 00:12:21.919 because you're doing this with the security that 00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:25.639 the other person won't fight back. So you're 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:28.000 not in equality of condition, so that makes you 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.299 basically a coward. And so unprofessional. So 00:12:31.299 --> 00:12:34.379 unskillful also. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like 00:12:34.379 --> 00:12:40.200 this reel that we recently posted where Eric 00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:43.200 repaired this thing, Gordon Ramsay, and he says, 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.299 like, it just shows that you haven't mastered 00:12:46.299 --> 00:12:49.340 yourself, basically. I wanted to mention, you 00:12:49.340 --> 00:12:51.820 know, there is this Spanish movie about abuse 00:12:51.820 --> 00:12:54.590 that is called Take My Eyes. And it's interesting 00:12:54.590 --> 00:12:58.730 because in that movie, there is no physical aggression 00:12:58.730 --> 00:13:02.429 at any moment, but it's so violent. It's so crazily 00:13:02.429 --> 00:13:06.570 violent. It's so scary. But you see the screamings, 00:13:06.570 --> 00:13:08.529 you know, if I start screaming and punching the 00:13:08.529 --> 00:13:12.190 wall and throwing things and creating a threatening 00:13:12.190 --> 00:13:15.190 atmosphere, not only to the person that is being 00:13:15.190 --> 00:13:17.990 the object of the abuse, but for the whole environment, 00:13:18.049 --> 00:13:21.190 for everyone is in a threatened environment. 00:13:22.350 --> 00:13:26.049 That's also. and very violent, you know? It's 00:13:26.049 --> 00:13:29.529 crazy. It can be really crazy. 100%. 100%. So 00:13:29.529 --> 00:13:32.389 let's go to the next statement. So this one, 00:13:32.629 --> 00:13:36.090 young, talented, very intellectual chef, a friend 00:13:36.090 --> 00:13:39.190 of mine, he says, I asked him the same question, 00:13:39.250 --> 00:13:41.990 and he said, I wouldn't call it just moderately 00:13:41.990 --> 00:13:45.529 abusive. Toxic personalities are often protected, 00:13:45.570 --> 00:13:49.350 and the culture is clearly reinforced from the 00:13:49.350 --> 00:13:53.279 top. The structures are rigid. Human resources 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:57.360 is closely tied to René's mother -in -law and 00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:00.320 inner circle. Intern housing was at least at 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:02.279 some point connected to the restaurant and sometimes 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:05.740 paid in cash. There are people who've held very 00:14:05.740 --> 00:14:08.340 high positions for years despite openly toxic 00:14:08.340 --> 00:14:12.159 traits. There's also a strong undercurrent of 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:15.480 machismo and the language can feel outdated. 00:14:15.860 --> 00:14:18.940 Much of what Jason is saying is true. In my opinion, 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:21.990 he's doing important work. And many of us who 00:14:21.990 --> 00:14:24.570 passed through those doors support him. It was 00:14:24.570 --> 00:14:28.429 about time. Jason built his reputation on his 00:14:28.429 --> 00:14:32.350 own merit, independent of the restaurant. Serious 00:14:32.350 --> 00:14:35.029 industry players work with him because of his 00:14:35.029 --> 00:14:38.169 work. And if people continue to stun by him publicly, 00:14:38.409 --> 00:14:40.669 it's likely because they believe something needs 00:14:40.669 --> 00:14:43.649 to be challenged. Even if that means confronting 00:14:43.649 --> 00:14:46.590 the power structure and the bubble around the 00:14:46.590 --> 00:14:48.419 place. What do you have to say about this one? 00:14:48.580 --> 00:14:50.940 Yeah, I think, I mean, first of all, I don't 00:14:50.940 --> 00:14:54.700 know what this guy Jason, like building his own 00:14:54.700 --> 00:14:57.080 merit has to do with the topic at all. Like, 00:14:57.080 --> 00:15:00.120 it's just a very strange comment to make to like 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:02.820 regarding to this, this topic, because it has 00:15:02.820 --> 00:15:04.580 nothing to do with that. Nobody's talking about 00:15:04.580 --> 00:15:07.580 his merit or whatnot. I think that, you know, 00:15:07.580 --> 00:15:10.759 we will get later to the fact why we don't endorse 00:15:10.759 --> 00:15:15.470 this person. At least me. I don't want to speak 00:15:15.470 --> 00:15:19.090 for you, obviously, but why I have issues endorsing 00:15:19.090 --> 00:15:22.590 this person. And that is also why we both kind 00:15:22.590 --> 00:15:25.450 of refrained from publicly speaking out. At the 00:15:25.450 --> 00:15:29.850 end of the day, whether this guy is genuine or 00:15:29.850 --> 00:15:33.870 a good person or whatever, you know, the fact 00:15:33.870 --> 00:15:36.529 that stories are coming to life and people feel 00:15:36.529 --> 00:15:39.870 like they can speak out is a good thing. And 00:15:39.870 --> 00:15:45.299 the way that stories surface. shouldn't taint 00:15:45.299 --> 00:15:48.799 the stories themselves in my opinion i think 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:52.139 that people can speak out is good everything 00:15:52.139 --> 00:15:54.860 else comes after that yeah like i agree with 00:15:54.860 --> 00:15:58.299 you and let's get into into let's say my negative 00:15:58.299 --> 00:16:00.980 impressions about jason later but to say the 00:16:00.980 --> 00:16:03.919 positive ones i do think that what he's doing 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:08.899 is important uh i do think that is It's having 00:16:08.899 --> 00:16:12.759 an impact and opening a conversation that is 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:15.620 very important. Just look at us. We're having 00:16:15.620 --> 00:16:19.320 that conversation. I do think that it's important 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:25.059 that some of these people are pointed out. I 00:16:25.059 --> 00:16:29.720 knew this kitchen was tough, but like I said, 00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:35.429 I can't. I can tolerate the screamings in some 00:16:35.429 --> 00:16:38.309 context within like a high pressure environment. 00:16:39.370 --> 00:16:43.830 But when it gets to personal insults or physical 00:16:43.830 --> 00:16:46.750 aggression, for me, that's a no -go, an absolutely 00:16:46.750 --> 00:16:52.289 no -go. So next one. Who was this again? Okay, 00:16:52.409 --> 00:16:54.710 this was an indirect contact. This was, you know, 00:16:54.710 --> 00:16:58.039 like a friend told me. uh, talk to this guy. 00:16:58.179 --> 00:17:01.879 So I contacted him and, and like, I asked him 00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:04.859 for his comment and he says, in my time there, 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:07.160 nothing happened to me personally that affected 00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:09.380 me directly. I remember a couple of situations 00:17:09.380 --> 00:17:12.720 being addressed openly. This was in 2020. Okay. 00:17:12.779 --> 00:17:15.559 I, I, I heard that at this point things change 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:17.960 because I think there was already like a scandal 00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:21.079 at some point. So there were really looking up 00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:25.200 to, to change things. Um, so I continue reading. 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:28.279 He says, At one point, the entire team was gathered 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:31.779 and it was made very clear that bullying, racism, 00:17:32.019 --> 00:17:35.259 homophobia, or any kind of discriminatory behavior 00:17:35.259 --> 00:17:38.579 would not be tolerated. From what I saw, there 00:17:38.579 --> 00:17:41.559 was an effort to set boundaries and make expectations 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:45.119 explicit. To be honest, I enjoyed my internship. 00:17:45.380 --> 00:17:48.720 For me, it was a positive experience. That said, 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:51.839 it's no secret that that generation of restaurants, 00:17:52.059 --> 00:17:55.019 not just this one, inherited a culture that could 00:17:55.019 --> 00:17:58.359 be very toxic. There were many different behaviors 00:17:58.359 --> 00:18:02.119 and standards coexisting at the same time. I 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:03.779 don't think I'm the right person to speak out 00:18:03.779 --> 00:18:07.900 about specific abuse cases. The people who went 00:18:07.900 --> 00:18:11.160 through those experiences are the ones who should 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:14.240 tell those stories. I can only speak for what 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:21.019 I lived. Yeah, I mean, for sure. You know, I 00:18:21.019 --> 00:18:23.440 know a lot of people who had a very good experience 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:25.960 at Noma, you know. I currently work with somebody 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:28.420 who had a very good experience at Noma very recently. 00:18:28.420 --> 00:18:30.819 It just took a few years ago. But obviously, 00:18:31.059 --> 00:18:34.079 you know, that doesn't change anything about 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:36.079 the people who have been abused there, you know. 00:18:36.099 --> 00:18:38.279 I mean, one thing doesn't cancel out the other. 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:43.640 Vice versa, you know. It's, you know, we both 00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:45.799 know what it is. You know, you worked in some 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:48.200 really, really tough kitchens. I worked in some 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:53.410 tough kitchens. It gets like the what's accepted 00:18:53.410 --> 00:18:56.650 and not and like what seems normal gets so distorted. 00:18:56.750 --> 00:18:59.910 Even nowadays, sometimes I really have to check 00:18:59.910 --> 00:19:02.569 myself because things just get out of hand, you 00:19:02.569 --> 00:19:05.990 know, and never out of hand like this. I've never 00:19:05.990 --> 00:19:08.690 ever in my career gotten physical with anybody. 00:19:09.230 --> 00:19:12.329 No, me neither. You know, like and also I've 00:19:12.329 --> 00:19:16.609 never said a personal insult. I've never said 00:19:16.609 --> 00:19:19.000 you fucking idiot. You know, like. In a work 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:23.480 environment? What the fuck? You know, like, like 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:26.079 directly? I mean, in the back of someone, of 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:28.559 course, but to their face? Have I? Have I, Phil? 00:19:28.680 --> 00:19:31.220 Why are you looking at me like that? No, you. 00:19:31.539 --> 00:19:36.740 I believe you. Did I tell you I'm a fucking idiot 00:19:36.740 --> 00:19:39.519 at some point? Oh, yes, I did. No. No, no, no. 00:19:40.579 --> 00:19:42.700 I'm just thinking about myself. I mean, I've 00:19:42.700 --> 00:19:47.220 definitely done that many times. uh yeah no for 00:19:47.220 --> 00:19:50.759 sure and it's um it's it's not okay but what 00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:54.220 i have to say is that i i've i've had like very 00:19:54.220 --> 00:19:56.740 violent reactions you know like sometimes not 00:19:56.740 --> 00:20:01.220 not a direct insult but but saying fuse your 00:20:01.220 --> 00:20:03.940 fucking thing you asked for you know like that 00:20:03.940 --> 00:20:06.819 that's very violent you know like that yeah that 00:20:06.819 --> 00:20:09.460 can break someone who's not prepared to take 00:20:09.460 --> 00:20:12.440 like a comment in a tone like that you know like 00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:17.319 yes for sure and so next one This guy I'm reading 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:19.380 now, he's a close friend. He's a San Pellegrino 00:20:19.380 --> 00:20:21.759 50 -Best restaurant leader. He's leading the 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:24.559 kitchen. So he says, the rhythm was intense. 00:20:25.099 --> 00:20:27.920 The hours were long. If you fell behind, you 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:30.420 were replaced. There was no violence, but no 00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:34.259 tolerance for mediocrity. Criticism could be 00:20:34.259 --> 00:20:38.279 harsh, but it was about performance. I once ruined 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:41.700 a truffle because I was too slow and it told 00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:45.190 exactly how much money I had wasted. Some days 00:20:45.190 --> 00:20:49.309 I drank 10 espressos just to stay awake. He was 00:20:49.309 --> 00:20:52.490 19 years old when he went. What stayed with me 00:20:52.490 --> 00:20:55.750 wasn't the exhaustion. It was the passion, the 00:20:55.750 --> 00:20:58.269 respect for product, the belief that work is 00:20:58.269 --> 00:21:01.289 a virtue and perfection matters. It was a turning 00:21:01.289 --> 00:21:03.890 point, not for technique, but for discipline, 00:21:04.250 --> 00:21:07.509 organization, and respect for the craft. Everything 00:21:07.509 --> 00:21:12.250 I built afterward carries that structure. It 00:21:12.250 --> 00:21:15.019 was demanding. but it changed my life positively, 00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:18.500 and honestly, I would go back. You just mentioned, 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:20.619 like, a lot of people have had, like, a positive 00:21:20.619 --> 00:21:23.720 impression, and I also have to say, like, for 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:28.099 example, if you see TripAdvisor reviews, I think 00:21:28.099 --> 00:21:32.980 you can't, they will put down reviews if they 00:21:32.980 --> 00:21:36.000 discover that you're an ex -worker, because that's 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:38.460 also, like, a common thing, that ex -workers... 00:21:39.390 --> 00:21:42.670 I resented to the company that maybe you were 00:21:42.670 --> 00:21:47.069 fired or maybe, you know, like, and as far as 00:21:47.069 --> 00:21:50.170 I understand, this guy Jason was fired. And that 00:21:50.170 --> 00:21:53.569 also adds context to the motivation and everything, 00:21:53.670 --> 00:21:58.089 you know, like. So next one, this guy is one 00:21:58.089 --> 00:22:01.369 of the best chefs I've ever met. Very, very technical. 00:22:02.049 --> 00:22:07.190 Is it me? Not only like, not only you. And this 00:22:07.190 --> 00:22:09.849 guy, he has worked in high positions, like in 00:22:09.849 --> 00:22:12.130 senior positions and some of the best restaurants 00:22:12.130 --> 00:22:14.269 in the world. Okay. Like, and from a very young 00:22:14.269 --> 00:22:18.750 age. And he says, when I arrived, I already had 00:22:18.750 --> 00:22:20.970 experience in high level kitchens. I had worked 00:22:20.970 --> 00:22:24.130 in demanding places before. So intensity didn't 00:22:24.130 --> 00:22:26.849 shock me. What shocked me was the contradiction. 00:22:27.509 --> 00:22:30.309 From the outside, everything looked respectful, 00:22:30.529 --> 00:22:34.089 sustainability, product worship, human values. 00:22:34.190 --> 00:22:38.440 But inside. What I saw felt different. The waste 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:42.119 was extreme. Lobsters thrown away because the 00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:46.000 tail was slightly damaged. Apples discarded used 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:48.619 to use the skins while perfectly good fruit went 00:22:48.619 --> 00:22:52.680 into the trash. Huge bags of product wasted daily. 00:22:53.220 --> 00:22:55.880 For a restaurant that spoke constantly about 00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:59.579 sustainability, that gap felt absurd. I also 00:22:59.579 --> 00:23:03.359 saw public humiliation. I watched Rene insult. 00:23:04.029 --> 00:23:07.089 Insult senior chefs in front of the entire team. 00:23:07.309 --> 00:23:11.349 Not constructive criticism. Insults. I saw people 00:23:11.349 --> 00:23:14.470 reduced in front of others. Respect for people 00:23:14.470 --> 00:23:18.809 felt non -existent. Schedules were surreal. Some 00:23:18.809 --> 00:23:21.250 people worked from 6 in the morning until 1 at 00:23:21.250 --> 00:23:24.490 night. The pressure was constant. The atmosphere 00:23:24.490 --> 00:23:29.430 felt forced. Almost theatrical. Like an image 00:23:29.430 --> 00:23:34.140 being maintained. What unsettled me most was 00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:37.980 the hypocrisy. Speaking publicly about ethics 00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:40.619 and sustainability while operating in a way that 00:23:40.619 --> 00:23:44.140 felt careless and wasteful internally, it didn't 00:23:44.140 --> 00:23:48.779 match. This guy was around 2015, more or less, 00:23:48.779 --> 00:23:52.500 maybe earlier. I had read interviews before arriving 00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:55.299 and expected something evolved, progressive, 00:23:55.420 --> 00:23:58.380 almost revolutionary. The food was excellent, 00:23:58.660 --> 00:24:01.220 no doubt about that. But everything surrounding 00:24:01.220 --> 00:24:05.019 it felt precarious, even absurd at times. For 00:24:05.019 --> 00:24:08.119 me, the biggest disappointment wasn't the hardness. 00:24:08.299 --> 00:24:11.099 I've worked in hard places. It was the lack of 00:24:11.099 --> 00:24:14.279 alignment between what was said and what was 00:24:14.279 --> 00:24:19.740 lived. This was a tough one. Yeah, that's rough. 00:24:20.140 --> 00:24:23.299 But it resonates with me so much because I've 00:24:23.299 --> 00:24:26.539 had the exact same experience definitely very 00:24:26.539 --> 00:24:29.339 strongly in two places, which at that time... 00:24:29.740 --> 00:24:34.380 When I was there, one was 2013, the other one 00:24:34.380 --> 00:24:42.140 was 2016. Internationally, like some of the most 00:24:42.140 --> 00:24:46.240 famous restaurants in the world, one in Spain, 00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:51.519 one in Sweden. And the image that is projected 00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:54.380 to the outside world and what is actually happening 00:24:54.380 --> 00:24:59.680 behind uh behind the curtains was completely 00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:02.900 different and i was so the first time especially 00:25:02.900 --> 00:25:07.460 i was so de -illusionized it was crazy i really 00:25:07.460 --> 00:25:09.579 i drank the kool -aid you know like before i 00:25:09.579 --> 00:25:12.440 i got there i believed it all i was very young 00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:15.319 i was very naive you know but like i really believed 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:17.519 that these guys like would go out into the garden 00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:19.180 and pick herbs with tweezers and like little 00:25:19.180 --> 00:25:22.299 japanese scissors i really believed that i really 00:25:22.299 --> 00:25:25.490 believed that you know these guys would like 00:25:25.490 --> 00:25:27.869 go out and dig carrots out of the ground one 00:25:27.869 --> 00:25:31.849 hour before service and um the reality was you 00:25:31.849 --> 00:25:35.450 know the local like supermarket just bringing 00:25:35.450 --> 00:25:38.829 like the box standard fucking carrots but like 00:25:38.829 --> 00:25:40.710 supermarket like a proper supermarket you know 00:25:40.710 --> 00:25:44.230 like a like a little or like an edeka you know 00:25:44.230 --> 00:25:47.549 um just delivering the carrots and i was like 00:25:47.549 --> 00:25:51.859 really wow that's uh that's crazy So I really 00:25:51.859 --> 00:25:54.059 get it. I really get it. This whole marketing, 00:25:54.119 --> 00:25:56.680 we spoke about it before, not too long ago, the 00:25:56.680 --> 00:25:59.099 whole marketing, the whole idea, the whole storytelling 00:25:59.099 --> 00:26:03.400 of a restaurant and the actual operation behind 00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:07.480 it. But, you know, I mean, I think like what 00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:09.880 this person is describing, throwing away whole 00:26:09.880 --> 00:26:12.779 lobster tails, like only using the skin of apples, 00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:16.269 that's intense. You know, that's not good. I 00:26:16.269 --> 00:26:18.509 want to go back to the punches, you know, because 00:26:18.509 --> 00:26:21.009 that for me is the most impactful thing about 00:26:21.009 --> 00:26:23.910 this whole story. And to be honest, I don't think, 00:26:24.049 --> 00:26:27.630 well, and we can also talk about, do you think, 00:26:27.750 --> 00:26:29.910 what do you think will happen to Rene Redzepi? 00:26:30.049 --> 00:26:35.109 Like I already spoke that legally, probably there's 00:26:35.109 --> 00:26:37.650 no chance that something is possible at this 00:26:37.650 --> 00:26:40.829 point. I don't know if maybe if there were like, 00:26:40.950 --> 00:26:44.589 you know, like. If there are diagnoses of psychological 00:26:44.589 --> 00:26:46.769 damage and somebody's printing that out, maybe 00:26:46.769 --> 00:26:49.869 that's a case, but I'm not sure. It depends on 00:26:49.869 --> 00:26:55.789 the period. But yeah, I wanted to say why I believe 00:26:55.789 --> 00:26:57.650 these stories in the first place, because one 00:26:57.650 --> 00:27:00.309 of my friends that I will quote, I think, next 00:27:00.309 --> 00:27:03.329 or at some point, he told me one of these stories 00:27:03.329 --> 00:27:06.430 back in 2016, around there. He was there around 00:27:06.430 --> 00:27:10.069 2011 or something, and he told me somebody made 00:27:10.069 --> 00:27:13.799 a really big mistake. and and renee pushed him 00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:17.160 and he punched him in the ribs and this punch 00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:19.319 in the ribs you know it's something very specific 00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:24.059 it's not something you hear often right um but 00:27:24.059 --> 00:27:29.339 yeah like they say um many of this uh stories 00:27:29.339 --> 00:27:32.140 that that popped up there was also punch in the 00:27:32.140 --> 00:27:35.500 ribs uh stories so that's why i said okay this 00:27:35.500 --> 00:27:37.799 has to be true there's no question that this 00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:42.339 is true but What do you think can happen now? 00:27:42.440 --> 00:27:45.740 I don't think this is the end of him at all. 00:27:46.779 --> 00:27:50.680 I think this is the problem with these figures, 00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:53.759 that they're national heroes and they change 00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:57.180 completely culinary landscapes. I mean, Copenhagen 00:27:57.180 --> 00:27:59.119 was not on the map. It's not something that he 00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:02.799 did alone, but he was for sure the visible face 00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:06.559 of a movement, right? And it's like, I was talking 00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:09.809 earlier with Xander, the producer, that... Imagine 00:28:09.809 --> 00:28:12.730 you have like that. That's maybe the reason why 00:28:12.730 --> 00:28:16.430 most people don't stand up and talk is because 00:28:16.430 --> 00:28:19.930 there is a you're closing doors. You know, like 00:28:19.930 --> 00:28:23.609 imagine you have like a football store in Argentina 00:28:23.609 --> 00:28:26.289 and you say something against Maradona. You publicly 00:28:26.289 --> 00:28:29.829 are an activist against Maradona. Nobody will 00:28:29.829 --> 00:28:33.450 go to your store. Right. And I think these things 00:28:33.450 --> 00:28:38.230 can happen. Like if you're a journalist or whatever 00:28:38.230 --> 00:28:41.140 or. Or you want to open a restaurant in Copenhagen 00:28:41.140 --> 00:28:44.400 and you speak up against the Noma ecosystem. 00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:49.319 So it's a matter, I think, of course, there are 00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:53.059 victims that are extreme cases that have severe 00:28:53.059 --> 00:28:55.859 psychological damage. I'm not questioning that. 00:28:55.980 --> 00:28:59.440 But I think the main motivation is interest. 00:28:59.740 --> 00:29:01.839 It's not in your interest. It's not in my interest. 00:29:01.900 --> 00:29:04.799 I know stories that are worse than the ones that 00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:07.619 are popping up here, here in the Spain ecosystem. 00:29:08.359 --> 00:29:10.700 And I wouldn't speak against these figures because 00:29:10.700 --> 00:29:12.880 it's against my interests. And at the end of 00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:15.640 the day, I wasn't personally a victim. I heard 00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:19.539 the stories that happened in those places. And 00:29:19.539 --> 00:29:24.960 yeah, I wouldn't go there. I wouldn't earn anything. 00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:27.680 I wouldn't change anything. And I would lose 00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:30.960 a lot of things. And that's the dilemma. That's 00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:33.119 the problem. And I think that's what makes this 00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:37.789 whole thing so complex. Yeah, I totally get where 00:29:37.789 --> 00:29:40.170 you're coming from. I mean, I don't know if you 00:29:40.170 --> 00:29:43.890 saw this email that went around about, you know, 00:29:43.890 --> 00:29:47.089 about like the sort of like internship contract 00:29:47.089 --> 00:29:50.329 code of conduct kind of thing with the part that 00:29:50.329 --> 00:29:53.269 says like, hey, like if something happens and 00:29:53.269 --> 00:29:55.730 we kick you out, you'll be blacklisted, you know, 00:29:55.750 --> 00:29:57.809 from here and from other restaurants and stuff. 00:29:58.049 --> 00:30:00.269 And I've seen that. That's probably illegal, 00:30:00.589 --> 00:30:03.690 right? Like that has to be illegal. I've signed 00:30:03.690 --> 00:30:07.019 contracts like that. um so that's definitely 00:30:07.019 --> 00:30:12.559 a thing um but like you know for me you know 00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:16.319 for me it's it's very it's very sad because um 00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:20.880 on one side i am a huge fan of noma the brand 00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:24.380 and the work the many many many years of work 00:30:24.380 --> 00:30:27.259 and the change that have the positive change 00:30:27.259 --> 00:30:29.640 that they've brought yeah you know the books 00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:35.700 like the the aesthetic the the techniques so 00:30:35.700 --> 00:30:39.559 much right um so it makes me very sad that all 00:30:39.559 --> 00:30:44.299 these to hear what is like you know the sort 00:30:44.299 --> 00:30:46.559 of things that happen behind behind closed doors 00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:50.779 and in my opinion what i think should happen 00:30:50.779 --> 00:30:54.579 with renee is that if these uh you know all of 00:30:54.579 --> 00:30:56.200 these allegations are true is that he should 00:30:56.200 --> 00:30:59.619 step down he should he's not fit to be head chef 00:30:59.619 --> 00:31:04.259 he should step away from the business of Noma, 00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:08.099 and somebody should take the lead who can manage 00:31:08.099 --> 00:31:13.359 people in a sustainable, in a human way. As far 00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:15.900 as I know, this issue has been addressed, or 00:31:15.900 --> 00:31:19.299 this hypothesis. Like, is Noma a restaurant that 00:31:19.299 --> 00:31:22.160 could go on without Rene Redzepi? I think he 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:24.519 said it in an interview, and he said yes. And 00:31:24.519 --> 00:31:26.240 I think it's the best thing he can do right now, 00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.579 you know, like become a... an advisor of the 00:31:29.579 --> 00:31:32.700 board, something like that. You're like a kind 00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:35.740 of godfather figure that is not operational anymore. 00:31:37.220 --> 00:31:39.359 That's the best you could do for the business 00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:42.519 right now with these whole things because this 00:31:42.519 --> 00:31:46.279 shitstorm has hit really hard. And for himself 00:31:46.279 --> 00:31:50.500 also. Yeah, like, I mean, at the end of the day, 00:31:50.500 --> 00:31:53.400 Maradona, nobody can say that Maradona is a bad 00:31:53.400 --> 00:31:55.779 football player because of all of the questionable 00:31:55.779 --> 00:31:58.460 things he made, right? And I think here is the 00:31:58.460 --> 00:32:00.880 same case. Nobody can question that. And also 00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:06.059 like the impact and the legacy. But yeah, like 00:32:06.059 --> 00:32:10.460 it's counterproductive, you know, like, and I 00:32:10.460 --> 00:32:15.420 think if many of these cases happened more than 00:32:15.420 --> 00:32:20.759 five years ago, I think it has to be, if that's 00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:23.859 the case, I can't say that's the case. I don't 00:32:23.859 --> 00:32:26.410 know. But I think it's really shit for the people 00:32:26.410 --> 00:32:29.390 that is working around him, you know, like for 00:32:29.390 --> 00:32:32.130 whatever reason they want to be, have him around. 00:32:32.289 --> 00:32:35.849 And now this thing's explodes and, you know, 00:32:35.930 --> 00:32:39.890 like it really affects your, your work and your 00:32:39.890 --> 00:32:42.549 team and, and, and your whole thing, you know, 00:32:42.569 --> 00:32:45.529 you all, all your efforts and everything. Yeah, 00:32:45.529 --> 00:32:48.210 totally. Totally. But no, I think it's, it's, 00:32:48.210 --> 00:32:53.029 it would be the best. um for for the restaurant 00:32:53.029 --> 00:32:55.390 but also probably for himself you know i mean 00:32:55.390 --> 00:32:57.829 like he clearly needs therapy he needs to step 00:32:57.829 --> 00:33:03.329 down he's not able to um not able to fill out 00:33:03.329 --> 00:33:06.250 the role that he's currently holding in a way 00:33:06.250 --> 00:33:09.710 that is acceptable you know if you can only do 00:33:09.710 --> 00:33:11.769 the job that you're doing by punching people 00:33:11.769 --> 00:33:14.349 and shouting at people then something is very 00:33:14.349 --> 00:33:18.130 fundamentally rotten and you really need to take 00:33:18.130 --> 00:33:21.329 the time to look at that Can you imagine a surgeon 00:33:21.329 --> 00:33:25.329 punching nurses because somebody dies in the 00:33:25.329 --> 00:33:29.349 ER room, in the emergency room? Nothing that 00:33:29.349 --> 00:33:34.130 has ever happened in Noma is that serious, like 00:33:34.130 --> 00:33:38.109 somebody dying on a surgeon table. It really 00:33:38.109 --> 00:33:41.089 isn't. It's just not, it doesn't make any sense 00:33:41.089 --> 00:33:42.650 at all. You know, like, what makes you think 00:33:42.650 --> 00:33:46.069 it's so important that, you know, like a dish 00:33:46.069 --> 00:33:48.859 went to the wrong table or that the... Turnip 00:33:48.859 --> 00:33:51.359 was not properly peeled. What the fuck is wrong 00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:56.200 with you, you know? It's crazy. 100%. So let's 00:33:56.200 --> 00:34:01.940 talk about the guy that made this whole social 00:34:01.940 --> 00:34:04.700 media explosion in these recent days. We're going 00:34:04.700 --> 00:34:07.559 to mention going forward in a couple of comments 00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:12.159 this person named Jason who we're naming by name 00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:14.159 just because he so publicly is coming out with 00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:19.130 all these stories. And some of these... accounts 00:34:19.130 --> 00:34:22.030 of people who have worked with him that are quite 00:34:22.030 --> 00:34:25.389 negative can get a little bit rough we're not 00:34:25.389 --> 00:34:31.190 sharing these to drag him down or to necessarily 00:34:31.190 --> 00:34:36.710 attack him we just want to share all stories 00:34:36.710 --> 00:34:41.730 equally and put things into a little bit of context 00:34:41.730 --> 00:34:47.159 also the reason why we don't like so many of 00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:50.400 our peers and colleagues, are publicly endorsing 00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:53.900 him. We cannot publicly endorse somebody even 00:34:53.900 --> 00:34:58.519 though the effect of what he's doing is ultimately 00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:01.460 positive, which is these stories coming to light. 00:35:02.139 --> 00:35:05.920 We both have talked, Eric and I, and we have 00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:10.420 an issue endorsing somebody publicly who is facing 00:35:10.420 --> 00:35:13.380 the same kind of abusive allegations than the 00:35:13.380 --> 00:35:16.980 people that he's you know, accusing himself. 00:35:18.019 --> 00:35:23.619 But none of this is meant to, you know, drag 00:35:23.619 --> 00:35:26.000 anybody into the dirt. It is just to put things 00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:28.579 into context. Yeah, I think what he's doing is 00:35:28.579 --> 00:35:33.039 very important. And I do think it's having an 00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:37.840 impact. And I think that this conversation should 00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:43.099 be more common, more open. Everybody should talk 00:35:43.099 --> 00:35:46.809 about this. This thing should be addressed in 00:35:46.809 --> 00:35:49.809 kitchens whenever something like this happens. 00:35:50.110 --> 00:35:53.429 There should be mechanisms. There should be tools. 00:35:53.630 --> 00:35:56.949 There should be a lot of things to prevent the 00:35:56.949 --> 00:36:00.969 situations to happen. And I think just having 00:36:00.969 --> 00:36:03.389 this conversation and boosting this conversation 00:36:03.389 --> 00:36:09.090 is very positive. And for that, I say, nice one. 00:36:10.429 --> 00:36:13.730 There are other parts of the story that are important 00:36:13.730 --> 00:36:19.769 also to tell, especially seeing the aggressivity 00:36:19.769 --> 00:36:24.110 he's telling these things. Well, there are some 00:36:24.110 --> 00:36:26.530 things here to be said as well. I want to put 00:36:26.530 --> 00:36:29.989 context from my perspective. Jason Ignacio White, 00:36:30.130 --> 00:36:35.869 he worked, I think, around 2021, around that 00:36:35.869 --> 00:36:38.670 time, maybe two or three years around that time 00:36:38.670 --> 00:36:42.670 at NOMA. fermentation lab uh as far as i know 00:36:42.670 --> 00:36:45.750 at the beginning with david silver then he stayed 00:36:45.750 --> 00:36:49.329 in in the lab this guy he reached out to us and 00:36:49.329 --> 00:36:53.130 he said he wanted to i like i like what you guys 00:36:53.130 --> 00:36:56.349 are doing uh i would like to participate in your 00:36:56.349 --> 00:36:58.329 show maybe an interview and we saw like okay 00:36:58.329 --> 00:37:01.969 nice content nice number of followers whatever 00:37:01.969 --> 00:37:04.269 it sounded like an like an interesting profile 00:37:04.269 --> 00:37:07.929 yeah like And then we asked around and a lot 00:37:07.929 --> 00:37:10.190 of people told us to stay away from that guy. 00:37:11.070 --> 00:37:15.329 And it was like, okay, like if people you trust 00:37:15.329 --> 00:37:18.889 tell you that, maybe there is a reason for that. 00:37:18.929 --> 00:37:22.510 At least that's the way I experienced it. I don't 00:37:22.510 --> 00:37:25.070 know what you have to say, Phil. Yeah, same. 00:37:25.590 --> 00:37:29.369 You know, the thing is that, again, it's great 00:37:29.369 --> 00:37:34.039 that these stories are surfacing, but... you 00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:39.500 know jason has been trying to slander noma in 00:37:39.500 --> 00:37:42.719 ways that have nothing to do with abuse for for 00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:45.960 a really long time and i started following him 00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:49.340 he started following me um and i was like okay 00:37:49.340 --> 00:37:51.739 interesting content and then he had a weird like 00:37:51.739 --> 00:37:57.800 burst of um stories that were sort of like every 00:37:57.800 --> 00:38:00.239 recipe from noma is shit blah blah blah their 00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:03.030 books are shit this is shit you know like And 00:38:03.030 --> 00:38:04.869 I was like, okay, and I asked a couple of people, 00:38:04.909 --> 00:38:11.429 and they told me that, yeah, a very, very problematic 00:38:11.429 --> 00:38:15.590 guy, that he got fired from Noma, that they had 00:38:15.590 --> 00:38:19.670 to, you know, stop the internship program at 00:38:19.670 --> 00:38:23.429 the Noma Projects lab because he was abusing 00:38:23.429 --> 00:38:26.320 people. You know, that is also why when I saw 00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:27.980 that he was reaching out, I was like, okay, cool. 00:38:28.039 --> 00:38:30.500 Like I said earlier, I think it is great regardless 00:38:30.500 --> 00:38:33.099 of how it happens that these stories are surfacing. 00:38:33.219 --> 00:38:37.380 I think that is very good. I think it is a little 00:38:37.380 --> 00:38:41.900 bit tainted, though, because if your own laundry 00:38:41.900 --> 00:38:44.119 isn't clean, you know, don't go pointing around 00:38:44.119 --> 00:38:48.039 your fingers. It is crazy to me that he is placating 00:38:48.039 --> 00:38:53.059 himself like the savior in Saint. the whole way 00:38:53.059 --> 00:38:56.579 that he's doing it is so self -satisfied and 00:38:56.579 --> 00:39:00.500 so self -serving like it for me it really feels 00:39:00.500 --> 00:39:04.780 like he is just using other people's traumatic 00:39:04.780 --> 00:39:08.719 experiences for his own gain and that is something 00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:11.760 that i just really really can't stand behind 00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:15.119 this whole like we will create a new movement 00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:18.650 like i'm i'm working with this legal team i'm 00:39:18.650 --> 00:39:21.369 gonna go and put on a bloody chef's jacket and 00:39:21.369 --> 00:39:26.030 um i think that's a little bit a little bit disgusting 00:39:26.030 --> 00:39:28.570 considering the kind of stories that people have 00:39:28.570 --> 00:39:31.190 shared with him and entrusted him with yeah i 00:39:31.190 --> 00:39:34.269 also have to say like for me it was crazy um 00:39:34.269 --> 00:39:37.550 that people told us like yeah this guy committed 00:39:37.550 --> 00:39:41.989 some abuses while while at noma and then like 00:39:41.989 --> 00:39:44.090 i had no context and then suddenly like This 00:39:44.090 --> 00:39:45.929 happened like, I don't know, maybe two months, 00:39:46.150 --> 00:39:49.489 maybe six weeks later. After this, it was like 00:39:49.489 --> 00:39:52.650 this whole explosion of comments and things around 00:39:52.650 --> 00:39:55.449 these stories. And then I saw a story that I 00:39:55.449 --> 00:39:58.250 recognized. It was like, aha, I saw this story 00:39:58.250 --> 00:40:00.449 two years ago. A friend showed me this, this 00:40:00.449 --> 00:40:03.530 story about the Dutch girl with the burnt face. 00:40:03.869 --> 00:40:06.449 And she told me like, what do you think about 00:40:06.449 --> 00:40:09.289 this? And I see the story and it was like, yeah, 00:40:09.309 --> 00:40:11.309 this happened. Also that story, if you listen, 00:40:11.389 --> 00:40:12.989 if you read that story, it's like, yeah, this 00:40:12.989 --> 00:40:17.659 girl. was crying in the bathroom and then the 00:40:17.659 --> 00:40:21.179 head chefs were laughing and I forced them to 00:40:21.179 --> 00:40:24.380 call an ambulance. This narrative that he's a 00:40:24.380 --> 00:40:26.960 hero and a savior that is saving the world is 00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:31.340 like, I don't know. Rick looks fake to me, you 00:40:31.340 --> 00:40:34.579 know, like, but yeah, then the thing is that 00:40:34.579 --> 00:40:38.360 she showed me that picture and then the story, 00:40:38.440 --> 00:40:40.440 the next one was, and by the way, Renee, you 00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:43.650 have a small dick. And it was like, And she asked 00:40:43.650 --> 00:40:45.230 me, like, what do you think about this? And I 00:40:45.230 --> 00:40:47.730 was like, for me, it looks like a crazy ex -boyfriend. 00:40:47.869 --> 00:40:50.050 You know, like, what do I have to say about this? 00:40:50.110 --> 00:40:52.690 Like, first, you're making very, very serious 00:40:52.690 --> 00:40:57.010 accusations. And then you're talking, you know, 00:40:57.050 --> 00:41:00.449 you're responding insults or verbal abuse. For 00:41:00.449 --> 00:41:04.710 me, that's not like a serious way to try to get 00:41:04.710 --> 00:41:08.769 justice. You know, it's just like a crazy ex 00:41:08.769 --> 00:41:11.539 -boyfriend going crazy. So let me go to the first 00:41:11.539 --> 00:41:13.860 story. This is a very close friend that I trust 00:41:13.860 --> 00:41:17.539 very much. And he says, Jason, what a character. 00:41:17.639 --> 00:41:19.840 Honestly, I've always got along super well with 00:41:19.840 --> 00:41:23.420 him. But when he left, he started being a super 00:41:23.420 --> 00:41:26.000 hater. Let's see. I think everything he posts 00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:29.460 and uploads is true. The real facts, which I 00:41:29.460 --> 00:41:32.579 experienced some of too. It was in 2011 or so. 00:41:32.980 --> 00:41:35.619 I imagine he'll tell you about them at some point. 00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:39.219 But that doesn't... No, I imagine... I told you 00:41:39.219 --> 00:41:41.619 about them at some point. But that doesn't take 00:41:41.619 --> 00:41:45.619 away from all the good things I had. Noma changed 00:41:45.619 --> 00:41:48.139 my life in a very positive way, despite having 00:41:48.139 --> 00:41:50.500 seen things like the ones mentioned in the post. 00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:54.440 In Copenhagen, Jason and I always got along well, 00:41:54.579 --> 00:41:57.880 even more so after David Silver left. But when 00:41:57.880 --> 00:42:01.840 he left, he went into a mega psycho -hater loop. 00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:06.239 Then I asked him, yes, I told my friend, I... 00:42:06.429 --> 00:42:09.090 Kind of get the feeling, too, that he's not right 00:42:09.090 --> 00:42:13.489 in the head. And he says, clearly not. He ended 00:42:13.489 --> 00:42:16.409 up super resentful with Noma, too, because according 00:42:16.409 --> 00:42:19.389 to him, they didn't give him the credit he deserved 00:42:19.389 --> 00:42:22.690 and blah, blah. That's what he told me. This 00:42:22.690 --> 00:42:26.670 was a WhatsApp conversation. I think it's easy 00:42:26.670 --> 00:42:30.070 to have that read on the situation. If you see 00:42:30.070 --> 00:42:33.690 the tone, like a lot of things, it feels like. 00:42:34.280 --> 00:42:37.139 You know, like a resented ex -worker going crazy, 00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:40.739 trying to get revenge because he was hurt. That's 00:42:40.739 --> 00:42:43.119 what I see. Oh, yeah, clearly. I mean, you know, 00:42:43.239 --> 00:42:46.860 like that's the thing. No, like he tried to do 00:42:46.860 --> 00:42:49.639 it before as well from a different angle. You 00:42:49.639 --> 00:42:51.780 know, he said that like basically he was like 00:42:51.780 --> 00:42:54.219 the first time I saw it, he was like trashing 00:42:54.219 --> 00:42:56.260 the normal books and he was like all the recipes 00:42:56.260 --> 00:42:59.260 are shit. And he was also posting like direct 00:42:59.260 --> 00:43:01.440 messages to him of people being sort of like. 00:43:01.900 --> 00:43:05.760 oh, I tried the Noma chicken garum recipe and 00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:08.119 it didn't work out. And him replying like, that's 00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:09.900 a really shit recipe. Don't do that. All the 00:43:09.900 --> 00:43:12.079 recipes in the Noma book are shit. I will give 00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:16.780 you my recipe. Don't you worry. And it repeated 00:43:16.780 --> 00:43:20.139 like that quite a few times, which, you know, 00:43:20.219 --> 00:43:24.079 like let him be like resentful of Noma. You know, 00:43:24.099 --> 00:43:27.079 what I just really have an issue with is like 00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:31.510 the fact that he is condemning the abuse. as 00:43:31.510 --> 00:43:34.590 anybody should, while there are these allegations 00:43:34.590 --> 00:43:37.329 against him at the same time. Which brings me 00:43:37.329 --> 00:43:40.250 to the next comment. Jason seems to have forgotten 00:43:40.250 --> 00:43:43.710 the colleague that he tortured and humiliated 00:43:43.710 --> 00:43:47.429 day in and day out for a month, who was on the 00:43:47.429 --> 00:43:50.110 verge of quitting NOMA. I can't recall seeing 00:43:50.110 --> 00:43:53.670 someone as broken as him, and I've worked in 00:43:53.670 --> 00:43:55.929 rough places where I was screamed into my ear 00:43:55.929 --> 00:43:59.809 almost daily. Jason is also guilty of the things 00:43:59.809 --> 00:44:03.719 he is claiming. We are all human. We make our 00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:08.000 mistakes and we almost face them. You know, like, 00:44:08.019 --> 00:44:11.320 what the fuck, man? Yeah, I mean, this is a thing, 00:44:11.320 --> 00:44:14.940 right? You know, the other day somebody said 00:44:14.940 --> 00:44:18.639 sort of like, hey, it's really good that attention 00:44:18.639 --> 00:44:20.559 is brought to this issue, but if the ship is 00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:24.559 going down, Jason needs to go down with it. And 00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:28.579 I think that puts it very well. Yeah, I think 00:44:28.579 --> 00:44:30.659 he's doing... He's doing the right thing, but 00:44:30.659 --> 00:44:33.420 in the wrong way and for the wrong reasons. You 00:44:33.420 --> 00:44:35.139 know, he could approach this whole thing in a 00:44:35.139 --> 00:44:41.139 different way. Maybe by starting saying mea culpa. 00:44:41.460 --> 00:44:44.780 Like I was also, I'm also guilty. I'm an alcoholic. 00:44:45.079 --> 00:44:47.239 Like I said earlier, it's so delicate when somebody 00:44:47.239 --> 00:44:49.119 shares a story like this with you, you know. 00:44:50.460 --> 00:44:53.400 It's very intimate and it's very personal. And 00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:55.400 it can be very fragile also, you know, it can 00:44:55.400 --> 00:44:58.039 be difficult. Surely it's very difficult for 00:44:58.039 --> 00:45:00.940 a lot of people to speak out about this and then 00:45:00.940 --> 00:45:04.300 to use it in such a way. And then also being 00:45:04.300 --> 00:45:07.179 explicit with names and stuff like that. It's, 00:45:07.179 --> 00:45:11.079 yeah, it's a bit difficult. By the way, the only 00:45:11.079 --> 00:45:15.019 reason we're using his name here is because of 00:45:15.019 --> 00:45:17.340 the context of the whole thing. And we think 00:45:17.340 --> 00:45:20.719 the things are also important to be mentioned. 00:45:21.630 --> 00:45:24.289 Uh, for the whole context of this whole story, 00:45:24.369 --> 00:45:27.090 you know, like, like the, uh, it's very easy. 00:45:27.250 --> 00:45:30.510 Like, like I said, when we last talk about this, 00:45:30.590 --> 00:45:34.650 suddenly, um, Johnny Depp gets canceled and everybody's, 00:45:34.650 --> 00:45:36.730 ah, fuck Johnny Depp, you know, and suddenly 00:45:36.730 --> 00:45:39.309 there's a whole trial and at the end of everybody's, 00:45:39.309 --> 00:45:42.489 ah, fuck his ex, you know, like, and that's the 00:45:42.489 --> 00:45:45.130 way crowds and social media works, you know, 00:45:45.130 --> 00:45:48.590 like, and it's very stupid. For sure. For sure. 00:45:49.210 --> 00:45:52.809 So next one, this is a co -worker that worked 00:45:52.809 --> 00:45:58.889 for a while with Jason hand to hand. And he says, 00:45:58.989 --> 00:46:01.389 Jason White is a psychopath and a pathological 00:46:01.389 --> 00:46:05.869 liar. He has burned every bridge he's ever come 00:46:05.869 --> 00:46:09.389 across and he has several restraining orders 00:46:09.389 --> 00:46:12.590 against him. You know, and for me, this is also 00:46:12.590 --> 00:46:15.780 interesting that, you know, like. Whenever you 00:46:15.780 --> 00:46:18.099 know people, you know, you know people, you might 00:46:18.099 --> 00:46:21.599 like people, you might dislike people. But when 00:46:21.599 --> 00:46:25.599 there is someone that out of 10 people, six tell 00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:28.119 you that this kind of things like this guy is 00:46:28.119 --> 00:46:30.460 a psycho or this guy is a liar or this guy is 00:46:30.460 --> 00:46:33.340 not OK in the head. You know, like, of course, 00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:35.579 you do your own judgment. You know, like, I don't 00:46:35.579 --> 00:46:38.239 know this guy, Jason. Like we we since this whole 00:46:38.239 --> 00:46:40.920 thing began, we have talked a couple of things 00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:46.190 on direct messages on Instagram. But that's all. 00:46:46.349 --> 00:46:49.590 I have no relation or no connection to him at 00:46:49.590 --> 00:46:53.849 all. But yeah, when people you trust tell you 00:46:53.849 --> 00:46:57.230 these kind of things, you ask yourself questions. 00:46:57.809 --> 00:47:00.449 That's the reason we didn't invite him to the 00:47:00.449 --> 00:47:02.690 show before this whole thing, because he had 00:47:02.690 --> 00:47:05.050 the right profile, he wanted to talk about the 00:47:05.050 --> 00:47:08.329 right topics, but some people warned us, and 00:47:08.329 --> 00:47:11.650 I'm actually happy we didn't, to be honest. Also, 00:47:11.650 --> 00:47:15.190 somebody, some of his very good friends told 00:47:15.190 --> 00:47:18.469 me, like, bring him to the show. He will give 00:47:18.469 --> 00:47:21.530 you controversy. And it was like, well, we're 00:47:21.530 --> 00:47:24.150 not here for the controversy, you know? Yeah, 00:47:24.210 --> 00:47:26.909 we're not here for the controversy. We're not 00:47:26.909 --> 00:47:30.829 here for the clout. And, you know, despite what 00:47:30.829 --> 00:47:33.210 some people have, like, said in comments about 00:47:33.210 --> 00:47:35.489 us talking about it, we're also not here for 00:47:35.489 --> 00:47:37.489 clicks of views, you know? Like, we've never, 00:47:37.590 --> 00:47:41.619 we've always... spoke our mind about topics exactly 00:47:41.619 --> 00:47:44.000 how we think it we don't really give a shit if 00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:45.840 you agree with our opinion we don't give a shit 00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:50.639 if you if it fits the general narrative um the 00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:53.840 the whole point of the show was from the very 00:47:53.840 --> 00:47:56.179 beginning for us to just talk about things exactly 00:47:56.179 --> 00:47:59.539 the way that we think about them um and the last 00:47:59.539 --> 00:48:02.800 thing that i personally would want to do is um 00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:06.960 give stage to somebody that i i just don't want 00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:11.659 to endorse you know Yeah, also, like, some things 00:48:11.659 --> 00:48:18.159 that I also heard of him, yeah, that apparently 00:48:18.159 --> 00:48:21.960 he was fired because he would disappear a lot 00:48:21.960 --> 00:48:24.739 from the lab. And one day he wasn't there and 00:48:24.739 --> 00:48:28.059 we came back. Rene gave him a lot of shit, like, 00:48:28.059 --> 00:48:31.659 a lot. And I don't know if he was fired or he 00:48:31.659 --> 00:48:35.219 never got back because he quit. Like, I don't 00:48:35.219 --> 00:48:39.800 have the detail. And I also heard that he created 00:48:39.800 --> 00:48:43.179 like an environment of rivalry between the lab 00:48:43.179 --> 00:48:47.079 and the kitchen and that it was him. Like before 00:48:47.079 --> 00:48:50.179 and after him, there was no such thing. You know, 00:48:50.179 --> 00:48:56.480 like a conflictive character who is taking the 00:48:56.480 --> 00:48:59.920 flag of being the savior against conflict. You 00:48:59.920 --> 00:49:02.099 know, and that's for me also like the fucked 00:49:02.099 --> 00:49:06.440 up part of this whole thing. And the last comment 00:49:06.440 --> 00:49:10.309 that I have, It says, Jason treated interns poorly. 00:49:10.650 --> 00:49:13.969 He was often dismissive and didn't acknowledge 00:49:13.969 --> 00:49:17.590 staff. And he was ultimately let go because of 00:49:17.590 --> 00:49:21.269 his behavior. Given that context, his motives 00:49:21.269 --> 00:49:25.269 may be driven more by resentment than by a genuine 00:49:25.269 --> 00:49:30.269 desire to help. And that's also the way I see 00:49:30.269 --> 00:49:37.530 it. Yeah, that was my impression as well. when 00:49:37.530 --> 00:49:39.210 he sent me some voice messages, when we were 00:49:39.210 --> 00:49:41.949 talking, he told me like, I know there's no vendetta, 00:49:41.969 --> 00:49:44.349 no, nothing of this is going on. And I'm like, 00:49:44.409 --> 00:49:47.489 I, and I, and also the comments, some people 00:49:47.489 --> 00:49:50.989 that have commented to us, like they, there's 00:49:50.989 --> 00:49:55.829 like a very clear and evident personal motivation 00:49:55.829 --> 00:49:59.210 in all of this, you know, like it's, it's not 00:49:59.210 --> 00:50:04.130 motivated by justice or by. trying to to save 00:50:04.130 --> 00:50:08.309 uh the victims or whatever it's it's personal 00:50:08.309 --> 00:50:12.369 it's you know like uh yeah that's that's the 00:50:12.369 --> 00:50:16.230 way i see it yeah yeah and it's a shame you know 00:50:16.230 --> 00:50:18.409 because at the end of the day it is it is good 00:50:18.409 --> 00:50:20.889 that this gets talked about and it is good that 00:50:20.889 --> 00:50:23.050 maybe something happens for these things to change 00:50:23.050 --> 00:50:31.699 um and um and yeah um at the end of the day um 00:50:31.699 --> 00:50:34.679 more people should come out with this there should 00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:37.400 be more of an acceptance there should be less 00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:42.579 fear about speaking out about this um i hope 00:50:42.579 --> 00:50:45.699 that we in the near future in the restaurant 00:50:45.699 --> 00:50:48.019 industry move away from this whole like boys 00:50:48.019 --> 00:50:51.420 club mentality where you can't speak out about 00:50:51.420 --> 00:50:54.119 injustice just because somebody's famous or somebody 00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:57.179 cooks food well like what the fuck does that 00:50:57.179 --> 00:50:59.969 mean it's like like what the fuck are we even 00:50:59.969 --> 00:51:01.929 talking about you know you make a plate real 00:51:01.929 --> 00:51:04.170 look real nice and real tasty and so you can 00:51:04.170 --> 00:51:07.030 treat people like shit when is going to be the 00:51:07.030 --> 00:51:10.889 time that we like move away from the shit shed 00:51:10.889 --> 00:51:13.710 all this like superficial nonsense and just focus 00:51:13.710 --> 00:51:16.110 on a profession that is actually really beautiful 00:51:16.110 --> 00:51:20.030 and really enjoyable um and one of the most enjoyable 00:51:20.030 --> 00:51:23.309 parts of this profession being working closely 00:51:23.309 --> 00:51:26.230 with other professionals who are creatives and 00:51:26.230 --> 00:51:29.239 craftsmen and an exchange between those people 00:51:29.239 --> 00:51:32.019 in a positive working environment you know like 00:51:32.019 --> 00:51:34.199 it really doesn't have to be so fucking difficult 00:51:34.199 --> 00:51:37.139 and it really doesn't have to be so fucking petty 00:51:37.139 --> 00:51:40.820 yeah i think the the solution is first of all 00:51:40.820 --> 00:51:47.900 um people like like renee or jason himself uh 00:51:47.900 --> 00:51:53.170 should step forward and say I'm an alcoholic. 00:51:53.409 --> 00:51:56.289 I've been abusive to my co -workers. I've been 00:51:56.289 --> 00:51:59.750 a cunt. I can say it myself. I've treated people 00:51:59.750 --> 00:52:05.630 poorly. I've made things aggressively and also 00:52:05.630 --> 00:52:09.550 in times with the intention of making the other 00:52:09.550 --> 00:52:12.170 people feel bad. I've done that. I've been there. 00:52:13.230 --> 00:52:16.789 And saying that openly, I think that's the first 00:52:16.789 --> 00:52:19.650 step. And on the other side, I think... There 00:52:19.650 --> 00:52:24.030 should be mechanisms to address these things 00:52:24.030 --> 00:52:27.070 at the moment, not five years after they happened. 00:52:27.110 --> 00:52:30.829 If they happened more than five years ago, I 00:52:30.829 --> 00:52:35.369 don't know that. That's what I kind of get with 00:52:35.369 --> 00:52:37.650 the information that I have, but I might be wrong. 00:52:37.849 --> 00:52:41.050 It could be wrong. I don't know. But that's my 00:52:41.050 --> 00:52:46.920 interpretation of the people I asked. This thing 00:52:46.920 --> 00:52:52.199 should be, if a chef punches a cook, that guy 00:52:52.199 --> 00:52:55.199 should spend that night in jail, period. That's 00:52:55.199 --> 00:52:58.159 what should happen. That's my opinion. That night 00:52:58.159 --> 00:53:00.980 and for the next two months, according to, in 00:53:00.980 --> 00:53:04.980 this case, of Danish law or whatever, you know, 00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:10.239 like, and you think it twice next time. Yeah. 00:53:10.360 --> 00:53:14.059 And, you know, like, to you who's... i'm sure 00:53:14.059 --> 00:53:17.219 to you who's listening and who's thinking secretly 00:53:17.219 --> 00:53:19.780 to himself fuck like i've done this i've done 00:53:19.780 --> 00:53:22.719 that because we do come up in an environment 00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:28.360 that is toxic you know um it's okay to have issues 00:53:28.360 --> 00:53:32.099 and it's okay for you to admit them to yourself 00:53:32.099 --> 00:53:36.960 and to make a change you know like nothing is 00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:39.480 keeping you in destruction it's not easy necessarily 00:53:39.480 --> 00:53:42.659 to break out of something that you have been 00:53:42.659 --> 00:53:45.840 in for maybe many, many years, like it is the 00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:47.820 case with many professionals and was the case 00:53:47.820 --> 00:53:51.179 with me also, right? That you come in, like you 00:53:51.179 --> 00:53:53.519 come up in this profession in an abusive structure 00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:59.880 and you carry forth unhealthy habits and make 00:53:59.880 --> 00:54:04.099 a change. You can do it. It's okay to self -reflect. 00:54:04.099 --> 00:54:07.780 It's okay to ask for help also. Betterhelp .com, 00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:11.199 you know, get some help, sort yourself out. whatever 00:54:11.199 --> 00:54:14.400 you want to not sponsored yet but maybe soon 00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:17.280 um it doesn't make you it doesn't make you weaker 00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:20.739 it doesn't make you worse as a manager the opposite 00:54:20.739 --> 00:54:23.880 actually it makes you stronger and better and 00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:28.900 um only good things will come from that and it's 00:54:28.900 --> 00:54:32.460 a choice that you can make every single day um 00:54:32.460 --> 00:54:36.440 you just have to do it stay in school don't do 00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:37.840 drugs call your mom