WEBVTT 00:00:03.930 --> 00:00:06.769 Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks, the 00:00:06.769 --> 00:00:09.810 show where we talk food and kitchens from a cook's 00:00:09.810 --> 00:00:12.970 point of view. We're recording live from a place 00:00:12.970 --> 00:00:15.529 where confidence is assumed and doubt is strictly 00:00:15.529 --> 00:00:18.929 off -menu. My name is Eric Erickson and I'm here 00:00:18.929 --> 00:00:22.250 with Philip Zimbardo. Neither of us is qualified 00:00:22.250 --> 00:00:25.280 to be here. Today we're talking imposter syndrome, 00:00:25.579 --> 00:00:28.399 that calm professional belief that you've somehow 00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:31.420 fooled everyone and that the bill is coming. 00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:34.340 The feeling that competence is temporary and 00:00:34.340 --> 00:00:49.659 exposure is inevitable. But first... First things 00:00:49.659 --> 00:00:51.579 first, a lot of people have asked us to comment 00:00:51.579 --> 00:00:55.340 on this recent social media thing everybody's 00:00:55.340 --> 00:00:58.560 talking about. We have many opinions on many 00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:03.399 different layers about this whole thing. And 00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:06.400 since it's a very delicate matter, you know, 00:01:06.420 --> 00:01:09.819 there are some serious legal accusations that 00:01:09.819 --> 00:01:13.810 either way some... People have to be accountable. 00:01:14.230 --> 00:01:16.730 When I say either way, it's like in case they're 00:01:16.730 --> 00:01:19.069 true, some people have to be accountable. And 00:01:19.069 --> 00:01:22.150 in case they're false, other people have to be 00:01:22.150 --> 00:01:26.409 accountable. Even abuse or defamation. And since 00:01:26.409 --> 00:01:29.189 we don't have the whole picture of the information 00:01:29.189 --> 00:01:33.709 and we just hear versions, we wouldn't comment 00:01:33.709 --> 00:01:37.010 about it. So we sadly will disappoint everybody 00:01:37.010 --> 00:01:40.769 that wants an episode where we would intensely... 00:01:41.579 --> 00:01:45.500 debate and talk comment by comment and version 00:01:45.500 --> 00:01:49.900 by version but this is from the very beginning 00:01:49.900 --> 00:01:52.540 we we have treated these issues like kitchen 00:01:52.540 --> 00:01:55.500 abuse and these kind of things our approach was 00:01:55.500 --> 00:01:59.900 taking it with with some humor even saying anonymous 00:01:59.900 --> 00:02:05.640 names we have dealt in our own way with abuse 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:11.219 and our abusers And, well, here this guy is doing 00:02:11.219 --> 00:02:15.879 it in his own way. So that's, at least from my 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:17.159 point of view, everything I have to say about 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:21.039 it. First and foremost is, you know, these sorts 00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:23.659 of stories that have surfaced on social media, 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:26.580 you know, if something like that happens to somebody, 00:02:26.819 --> 00:02:30.919 it should absolutely not be accepted. It should 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:35.650 be condemned. 100%. There's no world, there's 00:02:35.650 --> 00:02:38.310 no little universe, and it doesn't matter how 00:02:38.310 --> 00:02:40.289 fucking famous your kitchen is, where that should 00:02:40.289 --> 00:02:43.810 be okay, right? Of course. Just like you, I think 00:02:43.810 --> 00:02:47.569 I'm very skeptical about... I'm not skeptical 00:02:47.569 --> 00:02:49.550 about the fact that people have suffered in that 00:02:49.550 --> 00:02:53.389 kitchen, things that are not okay, 100%. What 00:02:53.389 --> 00:02:57.169 I'm a little bit careful with is also the way 00:02:57.169 --> 00:03:00.409 that these stories are surfacing and the person 00:03:00.409 --> 00:03:02.580 that they're surfacing with. this person who 00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:05.039 is posting on social media and making all this 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:08.300 stirring up all this all this stuff i heard some 00:03:08.300 --> 00:03:10.740 pretty vile stories about that person in their 00:03:10.740 --> 00:03:13.659 time in noma and so i think you should be very 00:03:13.659 --> 00:03:16.900 careful who you point your finger at if your 00:03:16.900 --> 00:03:21.259 own laundry isn't clean you know and while it 00:03:21.259 --> 00:03:25.169 would be a good thing to expose bad stories you 00:03:25.169 --> 00:03:27.810 know it's slipping a little bit into sensationalism 00:03:27.810 --> 00:03:30.629 you know this guy is a little bit i think power 00:03:30.629 --> 00:03:33.490 hungry now at this point like he's showing the 00:03:33.490 --> 00:03:36.030 amount of views that his stories got and the 00:03:36.030 --> 00:03:38.349 reshares and blah and now he's talking about 00:03:38.349 --> 00:03:42.150 making a protest with bloody chef jackets because 00:03:42.150 --> 00:03:45.770 that'll show them and it's kind of like how important 00:03:45.770 --> 00:03:48.909 is the well -being of the people who have like 00:03:48.909 --> 00:03:51.370 shared their stories with you And how important 00:03:51.370 --> 00:03:53.969 is your own fame in this whole scenario and your 00:03:53.969 --> 00:03:57.509 own like vendetta? I think that's why like I'd 00:03:57.509 --> 00:04:01.289 much rather not really put my money on either 00:04:01.289 --> 00:04:03.550 side. Do you know what I mean? It's at the end 00:04:03.550 --> 00:04:05.949 of the day, we're also not really, we're not 00:04:05.949 --> 00:04:08.569 privy to what exactly happened when and where. 00:04:08.969 --> 00:04:12.030 At the end of the day, it's impossible to tell 00:04:12.030 --> 00:04:15.509 for us, you know. And yeah, if you're in an abusive 00:04:15.509 --> 00:04:18.089 environment, please get out. It doesn't matter. 00:04:18.129 --> 00:04:20.420 It's not worth it. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't 00:04:20.420 --> 00:04:22.939 matter for your CV. It's totally fine. Just get 00:04:22.939 --> 00:04:25.860 out of the abusive environment and, um, yeah, 00:04:25.980 --> 00:04:28.819 take care of yourself. Yeah. Just to add on top 00:04:28.819 --> 00:04:31.259 of that. Also, the reason I'm very cautious on, 00:04:31.259 --> 00:04:34.660 on saying anything is, you know, uh, take the, 00:04:34.699 --> 00:04:37.300 the, this, uh, Johnny Depp case for instance, 00:04:37.579 --> 00:04:40.740 you know, suddenly. There is a whole scandal 00:04:40.740 --> 00:04:43.819 on abuse, and suddenly it was the other way around, 00:04:43.899 --> 00:04:46.819 and it suddenly turned into a defamation scandal. 00:04:47.500 --> 00:04:50.040 Reacting to the things on the very short term 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:54.240 and judging one side or the other, I do agree 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:56.879 with Phil that— Reactive is the right word, yeah. 00:04:57.019 --> 00:05:00.339 Reactive, yeah. I do agree with Phil that there 00:05:00.339 --> 00:05:05.779 is a very clear motivation on revenge and also 00:05:05.779 --> 00:05:10.670 some— how to say it, some drunkenness on numbers 00:05:10.670 --> 00:05:14.129 and attention that is this claims that suddenly 00:05:14.129 --> 00:05:16.610 we're going to make the greatest movement in 00:05:16.610 --> 00:05:19.350 culinary history. The power is going to be ours 00:05:19.350 --> 00:05:22.889 and we're going to destroy them. And after that, 00:05:22.990 --> 00:05:26.790 we can finally heal. And for me, that's a formula 00:05:26.790 --> 00:05:30.670 for self -destruction. Like, it doesn't work 00:05:30.670 --> 00:05:34.370 like that. It's not like if I destroy my past 00:05:34.370 --> 00:05:39.279 enemies, then I can finally heal. uh it doesn't 00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:42.319 work like that you know like yeah yeah unfortunately 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:45.220 because you know like like there would would 00:05:45.220 --> 00:05:48.040 have been cool for people to be able to express 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:50.560 their experiences and again you know while we 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:53.540 have no like concrete information necessarily 00:05:53.540 --> 00:05:56.120 i'm very sure that things have happened at nomad 00:05:56.120 --> 00:05:59.620 that were not okay for sure like in an old Loads 00:05:59.620 --> 00:06:00.879 of other restaurants, you know, we've talked 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:03.220 about it plenty of times. But it's a shame that 00:06:03.220 --> 00:06:05.120 instead of giving these people a platform to 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:07.040 talk, it's kind of turned into, like you say, 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:10.300 this weird sort of vendetta power struggle kind 00:06:10.300 --> 00:06:13.439 of thing. Yeah, crazy, crazy exploitant syndrome. 00:06:14.420 --> 00:06:17.839 Yes, exactly, exactly. Always hear out both sides 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:20.939 of these stories. And most importantly, don't 00:06:20.939 --> 00:06:23.660 let anybody, if you can, don't let anybody abuse 00:06:23.660 --> 00:06:25.959 you. If you're in an abusive environment, get 00:06:25.959 --> 00:06:28.199 out. It's really not worth it. Talk to somebody, 00:06:28.420 --> 00:06:31.279 you know, communicate it, don't endorse it. And 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:34.019 yeah, so on the other side, you know, don't try 00:06:34.019 --> 00:06:37.779 to tear people down. You know, nothing is gained 00:06:37.779 --> 00:06:41.699 by dragging others down with you. There's also 00:06:41.699 --> 00:06:45.379 like this narrative that I don't buy, this being 00:06:45.379 --> 00:06:49.160 pushed. Like, yeah, this, that Noma has been 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:52.399 a criminal organization that has ruined systematically 00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:55.740 the lives of everybody that has gone through 00:06:55.740 --> 00:06:59.199 there. And it's like, dude, you're working as 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:02.620 a fermentation consultant. That profession didn't 00:07:02.620 --> 00:07:06.180 have the market it has today. 30 years ago. You 00:07:06.180 --> 00:07:09.319 know, I ask around a lot of people that work 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:12.000 at NOMA at some point or that is working at NOMA 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:15.199 right now. And, you know, everybody told me that 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:20.220 their lives were transformed positively, you 00:07:20.220 --> 00:07:24.920 know, in a very significant way. That's the other 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:27.379 side of the story, you know, like, because suddenly, 00:07:27.579 --> 00:07:32.199 you know, like this comparisons with ice or this 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:34.300 kind of things. We already talked about this 00:07:34.300 --> 00:07:38.819 in one of the line episodes where we were talking 00:07:38.819 --> 00:07:41.660 about this matters. There was also a scandal 00:07:41.660 --> 00:07:45.740 here in Spain and suddenly comparisons with slavery 00:07:45.740 --> 00:07:48.220 or the Holocaust were being made. And it's like, 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:53.290 you know, like it's just disrespectful to. those 00:07:53.290 --> 00:07:57.129 matters that are way more serious and way more, 00:07:57.290 --> 00:08:00.310 you know, like where people are being killed 00:08:00.310 --> 00:08:02.069 and this kind of things, you know? A hundred 00:08:02.069 --> 00:08:05.329 percent. It's sensationalistic and it's macabre. 00:08:05.610 --> 00:08:08.629 It's not okay. And, you know, like, yeah, I also, 00:08:08.709 --> 00:08:10.689 I know a lot of people from NOMA. I know a lot 00:08:10.689 --> 00:08:13.170 of people who have been working on NOMA and the 00:08:13.170 --> 00:08:15.649 people that I know have also always spoken very 00:08:15.649 --> 00:08:19.649 highly of it. I'm not saying that those stories 00:08:19.649 --> 00:08:22.069 aren't true just because we know a lot of people 00:08:22.069 --> 00:08:24.860 that Had a good experience at NOMA. Both things 00:08:24.860 --> 00:08:27.100 can be true. And I don't want to take away from 00:08:27.100 --> 00:08:28.959 anybody who's had a bad experience there. And 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:31.899 I'm very sorry if you did. Yeah, like one thing 00:08:31.899 --> 00:08:33.940 doesn't take away the other. That there have 00:08:33.940 --> 00:08:38.639 been abusive workers that did abusive acts. I'm 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:41.860 also not taking away that. And I'm also not condemning 00:08:41.860 --> 00:08:44.899 that because it's just wrong. Yeah, but part 00:08:44.899 --> 00:08:48.019 of the reason we did all of these episodes without 00:08:48.019 --> 00:08:51.299 saying names. One is to legally say for us as 00:08:51.299 --> 00:08:56.129 a... committing some defamation claim that we 00:08:56.129 --> 00:08:58.169 don't want to hold up because that's not the 00:08:58.169 --> 00:09:00.610 point. The point is to have these conversations 00:09:00.610 --> 00:09:05.789 and also find the tools for both sides. The abuser 00:09:05.789 --> 00:09:10.909 also needs tools to overcome that behavior. These 00:09:10.909 --> 00:09:14.549 are the things that will repair the industry, 00:09:14.730 --> 00:09:44.559 not other things. That's the way I see it. So, 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:48.220 going back to the topic, imposter syndrome. Do 00:09:48.220 --> 00:09:50.279 you have impostor syndrome sometimes? All the 00:09:50.279 --> 00:09:53.980 time, man. All the time. Yeah, me too. So what's 00:09:53.980 --> 00:09:57.299 the definition? It's like you feel you don't 00:09:57.299 --> 00:10:00.220 have the skills and you're fooling everyone. 00:10:00.580 --> 00:10:04.980 Yeah. Also, psychologically, the definition is 00:10:04.980 --> 00:10:08.000 that you actually have the skills, but you don't 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:11.159 believe you have them. Yeah, you don't feel worthy. 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:13.019 You don't feel worthy enough to be in the spot 00:10:13.019 --> 00:10:15.759 that you are, and you're mentally undermining 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:18.759 yourself and your own ability, right? I have 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:25.600 that almost every day. Me too. I've even come 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:29.600 to thinking that it can be healthy, or maybe 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:31.960 healthy is not the word, but maybe productive, 00:10:32.220 --> 00:10:36.620 that it makes you push harder. That's probably 00:10:36.620 --> 00:10:43.299 unhealthy, but... But in any case, it makes you 00:10:43.299 --> 00:10:47.460 care more somehow, like of not fucking up, basically. 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:51.879 Yeah, hopefully. I mean, I think it's also not 00:10:51.879 --> 00:10:54.759 a bad thing to have, right? I mean, it is important 00:10:54.759 --> 00:10:56.960 to be confident in yourself and your own abilities, 00:10:57.000 --> 00:10:59.899 but I think it's just as important to always 00:10:59.899 --> 00:11:03.620 question. what you're doing is this kind of like 00:11:03.620 --> 00:11:05.799 what i like with this like whole shokunin mindset 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:08.779 you know every day you start like approach everything 00:11:08.779 --> 00:11:11.320 like it was your first time you know with the 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:15.139 same curiosity with the same or you know like 00:11:15.139 --> 00:11:19.279 like imagine if you've never sliced a leak before 00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:22.039 right and you cut open a leak for the first time 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:24.039 you see all the layers you see how it's built 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:25.980 and stuff and you're sort of like oh you know 00:11:26.350 --> 00:11:28.289 you start like finding things out a little bit. 00:11:28.570 --> 00:11:30.110 Obviously, at some point, you're not at that 00:11:30.110 --> 00:11:32.269 point anymore. You slice the leak like a thousand 00:11:32.269 --> 00:11:34.730 times, right? And your leak brunoise are all 00:11:34.730 --> 00:11:38.059 perfect. But if... Every time that you take a 00:11:38.059 --> 00:11:40.960 leak, even if it's the millionth time, you look 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:43.340 at it with this like attention to detail and 00:11:43.340 --> 00:11:46.220 this like playful curiosity. I think that that's 00:11:46.220 --> 00:11:49.240 such a beneficial mindset to have because it's 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:51.259 so easy. We talked about this so many times in 00:11:51.259 --> 00:11:53.840 other episodes. It's so easy to get stuck in 00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:56.740 what you think is true and right and what you're 00:11:56.740 --> 00:11:58.519 used to and what you've learned and what you 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:01.519 grew up with and what your traditions, you know, 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:05.320 dictate. And we don't, it's such a small square, 00:12:05.580 --> 00:12:08.159 right? It's such a small frame. And to break 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:11.220 out of that, you know, with curiosity and an 00:12:11.220 --> 00:12:15.600 open mind is so, so cool. And I think that this 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:17.860 imposter syndrome sometimes maybe does it a little 00:12:17.860 --> 00:12:20.039 bit because you also don't take yourself too 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:22.240 seriously. I think that's also really, really 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:24.620 important. I think people should stop taking 00:12:24.620 --> 00:12:27.720 ourselves too seriously in general. In many, 00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:30.340 like, parts of life, I think it will improve 00:12:30.340 --> 00:12:33.450 your life dramatically. Whenever I manage to 00:12:33.450 --> 00:12:36.330 do that, it improves my life dramatically. I 00:12:36.330 --> 00:12:39.029 start enjoying what I'm doing more. I start finding 00:12:39.029 --> 00:12:42.370 out things about the things that I'm doing while 00:12:42.370 --> 00:12:44.730 I'm doing them that are surprising to me, you 00:12:44.730 --> 00:12:48.450 know, because I let go, right? And it's actually 00:12:48.450 --> 00:12:50.809 a really nice experience. So I think having imposter 00:12:50.809 --> 00:12:54.190 syndrome is probably a sign of a healthy intelligence, 00:12:54.450 --> 00:12:57.580 to be honest with you. Really? Okay. I can think 00:12:57.580 --> 00:13:00.620 of maybe the first time that I gave a lecture 00:13:00.620 --> 00:13:03.679 or the first time that I had to sit down with 00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:06.379 a client. For sure, not the first time that I 00:13:06.379 --> 00:13:09.120 was head chef or sous chef, because I think at 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:11.820 that point I already had like a lot of tools. 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:15.799 So and I already have seen a lot of things. Yet 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:20.039 at the same time, I remember feeling being unable 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:23.220 to be sous chef, for example, when I worked at 00:13:23.220 --> 00:13:26.299 a Michelin star restaurant. It was like, no way, 00:13:26.460 --> 00:13:30.399 no, no, no. I'm not by far ready to do this. 00:13:30.899 --> 00:13:34.240 I'm miles away. No, no, no, I can't. And it's 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:36.600 interesting because I can think of a guy that 00:13:36.600 --> 00:13:40.279 I worked with. This guy, he worked in some of 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:42.820 the best restaurants in the world. And after 00:13:42.820 --> 00:13:45.259 that, he was already, I don't know, let's say 00:13:45.259 --> 00:13:51.179 27. After that, he went to a top culinary school 00:13:51.179 --> 00:13:55.419 and studied for four years. And after that, he 00:13:55.419 --> 00:13:59.340 felt he was not ready to be a head chef. And 00:13:59.340 --> 00:14:03.500 this guy was an excellent chef. I can think that 00:14:03.500 --> 00:14:08.340 maybe he was too aggressive in terms of leadership. 00:14:08.899 --> 00:14:12.379 He could definitely, he had the tools and the 00:14:12.379 --> 00:14:14.159 disciplines and the knowledge and everything. 00:14:14.379 --> 00:14:18.700 But he really felt he was unworthy. And for me, 00:14:18.700 --> 00:14:22.299 this was... This really caught my attention because 00:14:22.299 --> 00:14:25.299 I was thinking, like, what is going on in this 00:14:25.299 --> 00:14:28.539 guy's head that he feels he can't do it? Have 00:14:28.539 --> 00:14:30.340 you seen, like, these kind of cases or have you 00:14:30.340 --> 00:14:33.279 experienced them yourself? Not in the way that 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:35.740 you're describing it, I don't think. Me, myself, 00:14:36.059 --> 00:14:37.940 I think for me it was the other way around. Like, 00:14:37.940 --> 00:14:40.360 when I first became sous chef and head chef, 00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:44.039 I was, like, very young. and thought that I could 00:14:44.039 --> 00:14:46.519 do it, but I didn't really know how to do it. 00:14:46.580 --> 00:14:48.080 Like nobody taught me, right? So there's like 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:51.059 a big difference, right? So for example, nowadays, 00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:55.440 when I hire somebody, I know now what skills 00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:57.779 you need to have as a head chef. I didn't know 00:14:57.779 --> 00:14:59.840 back then. I didn't know what skills you need 00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:01.899 to have as a head chef when I became a head chef, 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:04.820 right? But also like the definition of what that 00:15:04.820 --> 00:15:07.519 means, it changes, right? Because for me, a head 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:09.840 chef at some point, I thought a head chef was 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:13.179 a very good chef. controls all the cooking, all 00:15:13.179 --> 00:15:15.820 the sections, all the blah, does orders, schedule, 00:15:16.179 --> 00:15:18.639 makes the dishes, writes the menus, right? All 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:21.019 the other things that Edge has to do, you know? 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:24.440 Like, I had no idea about that. Like, which ones? 00:15:24.539 --> 00:15:28.750 Like, being a shrink or a babysitter. Or a detective. 00:15:29.129 --> 00:15:33.049 A plumber, a detective, a first aid responder. 00:15:36.190 --> 00:15:40.490 Yeah, no, but like... Drug dealer. Hopefully 00:15:40.490 --> 00:15:44.289 not. Like the whole managing aspect, what that 00:15:44.289 --> 00:15:47.870 means, what it means to manage people, right? 00:15:48.169 --> 00:15:51.549 I had no idea what that meant until much, much, 00:15:51.549 --> 00:15:53.669 much later in my career when I was already head 00:15:53.669 --> 00:15:55.889 chef for like four or five years or something. 00:15:56.539 --> 00:16:00.460 and i went then to go to a place and then i was 00:16:00.460 --> 00:16:03.419 like oh that's how you manage that's how you 00:16:03.419 --> 00:16:06.120 can manage people you know so anyway like when 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:08.639 i became a chef i was like i i have the ability 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:12.639 like i have the confidence in myself that i believe 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:15.320 that i can solve anything like i might not know 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:19.139 how to do anything everything right i can i'm 00:16:19.139 --> 00:16:22.799 a good chef And I have good experience and blah. 00:16:23.100 --> 00:16:25.899 And I don't really have the knowledge, but I 00:16:25.899 --> 00:16:29.639 believe in myself that I can acquire the knowledge 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:32.139 when I need to. That was my belief in myself. 00:16:32.500 --> 00:16:34.379 And that's how I approached it. That's how I 00:16:34.379 --> 00:16:36.240 approached being a sous chef. I had no support, 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:39.559 right? My first sous chef job, like I was sous 00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:41.320 chef. And then at some point I got after like 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:43.179 a year, half a year, I got promoted to head chef 00:16:43.179 --> 00:16:45.000 because there was no head chef, right? It was 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:47.759 completely, I was completely on my own. And so 00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:49.620 it was kind of learned by doing, which led to 00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:52.779 me. being not a very good manager maybe i was 00:16:52.779 --> 00:16:54.779 a good cook and the kitchen was organized and 00:16:54.779 --> 00:16:57.559 stuff and the orders always came in and the food 00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:00.480 cost was okay but i i managed people like shit 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:03.559 like i i was horrible to them and so i kind of 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:07.359 had to like learn by doing nowadays i don't want 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:10.200 people to do that you know but going back to 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:12.099 the imposter syndrome you know i had imposter 00:17:12.099 --> 00:17:14.180 syndrome but i was sort of like okay i definitely 00:17:14.180 --> 00:17:16.539 i don't have imposter syndrome i am an imposter 00:17:16.539 --> 00:17:18.680 right now because i don't know how to do the 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:23.109 job but I believe that I can figure it out, you 00:17:23.109 --> 00:17:27.069 know? Yeah, like I would say that happened to 00:17:27.069 --> 00:17:30.089 me also when I started like in very new positions, 00:17:30.190 --> 00:17:34.470 like suddenly I went from the R &D of a restaurant 00:17:34.470 --> 00:17:38.849 to operations director. You know, like, and it 00:17:38.849 --> 00:17:42.490 was like, I was like, first thing that I did 00:17:42.490 --> 00:17:45.410 is I went home and looked up on Wikipedia, what 00:17:45.410 --> 00:17:48.490 the fuck are operations? A COO is, you know, 00:17:48.549 --> 00:17:54.509 like, and the next day I would lecture people 00:17:54.509 --> 00:17:58.029 on what COO is, blah, blah, blah. You don't know? 00:17:58.250 --> 00:18:01.670 Ah, let me explain it to you. Ignorant. Yes. 00:18:03.099 --> 00:18:06.500 But I think the way to overcome imposter syndrome 00:18:06.500 --> 00:18:10.039 is basically fake it until you make it. What 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:13.180 do you think about that claim? Well, that's what 00:18:13.180 --> 00:18:15.079 you're doing right now, as you said. It's what 00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:17.500 I've done always, man. It's what I've done always, 00:18:17.660 --> 00:18:20.920 always, always. I don't know when it stops. Yeah, 00:18:20.980 --> 00:18:24.619 lying will... bring you very far so yeah it's 00:18:24.619 --> 00:18:26.599 not really lying though it's not really lying 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:29.880 you know like it's um maybe in the beginning 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:31.599 of my career i did that i was like oh yeah i 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:34.480 know how to do that you know and i i wasn't really 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:37.500 lying because i was like i i'm very sure that 00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:39.599 i can do it it can't be that difficult like if 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:41.980 you're doing it i can do it for sure i think 00:18:41.980 --> 00:18:43.720 fake it until you make it i really believe that 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:48.339 because i do i do yeah i do sorry i had to i 00:18:48.339 --> 00:18:50.200 had to i second guessed myself there for a second 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:55.740 But because I believe in taking it before it's 00:18:55.740 --> 00:18:58.759 given to you, right? So very easy example, right? 00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:03.119 You're a CDP, okay? And you are a very good CDP. 00:19:03.140 --> 00:19:05.519 You are managing the other people on your section. 00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:08.559 You are communicating your orders. You're looking 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.059 a little bit into other sections. And you're 00:19:11.059 --> 00:19:13.380 thinking to yourself, I feel like I could be 00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:16.019 ready to be a sous chef, right? So you think 00:19:16.019 --> 00:19:19.240 to yourself, well, Like, what do you do? Do you 00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:20.900 go to your chef and say, chef, I want to become 00:19:20.900 --> 00:19:23.039 a sous chef. Can I have the promotion, please? 00:19:23.140 --> 00:19:27.480 I feel like I can do it. Right. My mom told me 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:29.640 that I can do it. Yeah. Or I believe, I believe 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:31.440 that I can do it. I feel like I'm better than 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:33.079 everybody else, basically, is what you're saying. 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:36.140 And I'm better than all these other cunts, all 00:19:36.140 --> 00:19:40.720 these other CDPs. Right. And you should give 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:45.430 me the position. Yeah. Chances are, maybe if 00:19:45.430 --> 00:19:46.890 you're lucky, they're sort of like, okay, let 00:19:46.890 --> 00:19:49.029 me think about it. Let's see. Give a couple of 00:19:49.029 --> 00:19:51.009 months, I'll think about it. Best case. Best 00:19:51.009 --> 00:19:54.990 case, yeah. Hey, Phil, have you subscribed to 00:19:54.990 --> 00:19:58.269 our newsletter yet? We have a newsletter? What's 00:19:58.269 --> 00:20:01.049 a newsletter about, Eric? Every month we share 00:20:01.049 --> 00:20:03.589 one cool thing from the world of food and restaurants, 00:20:03.789 --> 00:20:06.849 and occasionally a recipe we swore we'd never 00:20:06.849 --> 00:20:09.750 share. Like your secret boiled egg lemon tart 00:20:09.750 --> 00:20:12.890 recipe. But Eric, that was my grandma's secret 00:20:12.890 --> 00:20:16.769 recipe. Not anymore. Subscribe to our newsletter 00:20:16.769 --> 00:20:19.809 where we unveil all of Phil's grandmother's secrets. 00:20:23.710 --> 00:20:27.690 Now, rewind, right? You're a CDP and you're like, 00:20:27.769 --> 00:20:30.490 I want to become sushi. I feel like I can. And 00:20:30.490 --> 00:20:33.789 you start just doing it. Nobody gave you the 00:20:33.789 --> 00:20:36.710 position. Nobody gave you the raise. You just 00:20:36.710 --> 00:20:39.890 fucking start doing it. Just bit by bit. Say, 00:20:39.970 --> 00:20:41.690 hey, chef, can I support you with the orders? 00:20:42.029 --> 00:20:44.049 I'll start taking care of the orders. I'll communicate 00:20:44.049 --> 00:20:46.609 to the sections. Fuck, what head chef wouldn't 00:20:46.609 --> 00:20:52.069 be like, yes, 100 % here. Take the fucking clipboards. 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:56.099 Please. Thank you. I can finally have some, a 00:20:56.099 --> 00:20:57.940 little bit more time of all the other shit that 00:20:57.940 --> 00:21:00.359 I have to do. Right. You know, and all the other 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:01.940 stuff, you know, sort of like, Hey, you know, 00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:03.339 I could do this. I could do that. And you just 00:21:03.339 --> 00:21:05.000 start doing it. Who do you think they're going 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:08.240 to look for when the position opens up and they 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:10.119 want to hire somebody? It's a fucking no brainer. 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:12.599 It's you because you're already doing it. I feel 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:14.359 like that with everything. And like, and now 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:18.420 I'm, I'm now I'm turning 33 this weekend. I really 00:21:18.420 --> 00:21:21.869 believe it. Like I have seen. I have done jumps 00:21:21.869 --> 00:21:25.049 in my career and done things that I didn't think 00:21:25.049 --> 00:21:27.809 I would like ever do, really. You just have to 00:21:27.809 --> 00:21:30.789 do it. You just have to balls it through. There's 00:21:30.789 --> 00:21:33.089 a fine line between bullshitting, if you don't 00:21:33.089 --> 00:21:34.349 know what the fuck you're talking about, but 00:21:34.349 --> 00:21:36.450 if you have some technical understanding and 00:21:36.450 --> 00:21:38.250 you gather the knowledge in what you're doing, 00:21:38.390 --> 00:21:41.109 you know, at some point you can reach. Like right 00:21:41.109 --> 00:21:44.029 now, like I'm drawing fucking kitchen plans for 00:21:44.029 --> 00:21:46.069 like three different sites right now. Like, you 00:21:46.069 --> 00:21:49.680 know, blueprint. um shit you know yeah i've done 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:51.619 that as well i'm not a fucking architect like 00:21:51.619 --> 00:21:54.039 i'm not a kitchen but at the end of the day an 00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:57.140 architect is not a fucking chef exactly exactly 00:21:57.140 --> 00:22:00.619 so like you know what are the the things are 00:22:00.619 --> 00:22:03.599 that are functional and a kitchen has to be you 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:07.460 know it has to be form follows function not the 00:22:07.460 --> 00:22:10.460 other way around yeah absolutely and i think 00:22:10.460 --> 00:22:12.559 you know sort of like the idea is sort of like 00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:15.440 well If you think of somebody that you admire 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:17.400 and you think of the skill set that they have 00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:19.160 as sort of like, well, why did I have that skill 00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:22.000 set? And why do you feel like you can't have 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:24.200 that skill set? You have to think back to Mugaritz 00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:26.160 because the only thing stopping you from having 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:28.680 that skill set is your own determination, you 00:22:28.680 --> 00:22:31.619 know, and your own will to do it. It's literally 00:22:31.619 --> 00:22:34.400 just doing it. Like even if you wanted to be 00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:36.960 a fucking stock trader, you know, and you wanted 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:39.019 to do that to yourself, you know, and if you 00:22:39.019 --> 00:22:40.859 were really determined, you would just get the 00:22:40.859 --> 00:22:42.839 knowledge, you get into it and you just do it. 00:22:43.150 --> 00:22:46.750 And now, like, being the devil's advocate, what 00:22:46.750 --> 00:22:49.789 would you say happens if you don't have the capacity? 00:22:50.549 --> 00:22:53.710 You know, or whatever. Or suddenly, like, you 00:22:53.710 --> 00:22:56.349 know that not everybody's built for everything. 00:22:56.890 --> 00:23:00.089 Like, for example, I'm sure I won't be a good 00:23:00.089 --> 00:23:03.349 musician or a good football player at all. But 00:23:03.349 --> 00:23:06.089 imagine I take the self -determination to be 00:23:06.089 --> 00:23:07.970 the best football player in the world. I will 00:23:07.970 --> 00:23:11.410 never be. You know, like, just factually, I will 00:23:11.410 --> 00:23:14.130 never be. What would you say about that other 00:23:14.130 --> 00:23:17.809 side of someone who is pushing too hard on something 00:23:17.809 --> 00:23:20.589 he actually doesn't belong in there? Like, where's 00:23:20.589 --> 00:23:23.990 the point where you realize, you know, this is 00:23:23.990 --> 00:23:26.670 not my thing. I should do something else. I think 00:23:26.670 --> 00:23:29.269 what we're talking about there in that example 00:23:29.269 --> 00:23:32.609 is not necessarily that they can't do it. They 00:23:32.609 --> 00:23:35.609 just have unrealistic expectations, you know, 00:23:35.690 --> 00:23:39.460 like you can incrementally. improve insanely 00:23:39.460 --> 00:23:42.380 at playing football like you can't do that you 00:23:42.380 --> 00:23:45.039 know but if from the get -go you set yourself 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:47.460 the goal i'm going to be the best football player 00:23:47.460 --> 00:23:51.519 in the world like that is you know that is unsustainable 00:23:51.519 --> 00:23:54.880 direction of energy like wanting to to destroy 00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:57.759 a super world famous restaurant in order to be 00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:01.079 healed in inside something like that is that 00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:05.059 like uh i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry 00:24:05.420 --> 00:24:08.519 No, it's okay. Sorry, everyone who got offended 00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:12.819 by the joke. It'll be a lot. Minus 2 ,000 followers 00:24:12.819 --> 00:24:15.960 easily. It's okay. We got a couple. Yeah, I think 00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:17.779 this is the thing, right? It's kind of like, 00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:21.619 well, what do you want? If I walk into a karate 00:24:21.619 --> 00:24:25.740 dojo, right? Let's choose a real martial arts. 00:24:25.819 --> 00:24:29.680 If I walk into a judo dojo, right? And I think 00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:32.359 to myself, I am determined to be the best judoka 00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:34.220 there ever was. And I go up to the... to the 00:24:34.220 --> 00:24:36.440 black belt instructor and I'm like, I challenge 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:40.039 you to a Rhandori and then you get smacked left 00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:42.880 and right. Instead, what you could have done 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:46.680 is sort of like, I'm going to every day, I'm 00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:49.099 going to pick what I want and I'm going to every 00:24:49.099 --> 00:24:51.299 day dedicate myself to improving in that. And 00:24:51.299 --> 00:24:54.500 then you go train every day. How quickly you 00:24:54.500 --> 00:24:58.440 will catapult upwards. I've seen a couple of 00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:01.660 times people in kitchens like having that unrealistic. 00:25:03.679 --> 00:25:07.140 kamikaze behavior on, you know, like having, 00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:10.640 you know, like overconfidence and, you know, 00:25:10.660 --> 00:25:15.299 like believing way too much in themselves. Like, 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:18.579 it is like, dude, you know, calibrated a little 00:25:18.579 --> 00:25:21.220 bit, right? Yeah, yeah. It's rough. It's rough. 00:25:22.059 --> 00:25:24.460 It's really nice when you let all of that go. 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:28.940 It's really, really nice. Life is a lot more 00:25:28.940 --> 00:25:30.480 fun. Like I said, you know, if you don't take 00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:32.220 yourself too serious and you just let it go. 00:25:32.890 --> 00:25:35.930 And then, you know, and then you find yourself 00:25:35.930 --> 00:25:40.230 in a place where if you're not the smartest person, 00:25:40.289 --> 00:25:43.670 like you are the least smart person in the room, 00:25:43.730 --> 00:25:46.190 you start enjoying the room a lot more, you know. 00:25:46.230 --> 00:25:48.369 It doesn't start weighing on you, but you're 00:25:48.369 --> 00:25:50.849 like, this is fucking amazing. You've left your 00:25:50.849 --> 00:25:54.549 ego on the side and you're actually purely improving 00:25:54.549 --> 00:25:58.869 now and purely enjoying both of those, which 00:25:58.869 --> 00:26:02.049 are amazing, right? it's like dancing man you 00:26:02.049 --> 00:26:04.609 can only dance if you stop thinking you know 00:26:04.609 --> 00:26:06.910 you can and you listen to the music and you let 00:26:06.910 --> 00:26:09.109 it go and you stop moving you know like it's 00:26:09.109 --> 00:26:11.230 not like if you're thinking about everything 00:26:11.230 --> 00:26:13.329 that could happen before and after and people 00:26:13.329 --> 00:26:17.170 watching you and blah blah blah you're just destroying 00:26:17.170 --> 00:26:19.869 yourself what about voguing i can evoke when 00:26:19.869 --> 00:26:23.109 i think about it i can go like this or country 00:26:23.109 --> 00:26:25.670 music dancing you know that's true like four 00:26:25.670 --> 00:26:28.930 step yeah like line dancing yeah yeah exactly 00:26:29.609 --> 00:26:31.569 nice nice nice i like that as one