Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks, the
show where we talk food and kitchens from a cook's
point of view. We're recording live from a place
where confidence is assumed and doubt is strictly
off -menu. My name is Eric Erickson and I'm here
with Philip Zimbardo. Neither of us is qualified
to be here. Today we're talking imposter syndrome,
that calm professional belief that you've somehow
fooled everyone and that the bill is coming.
The feeling that competence is temporary and
exposure is inevitable. But first... First things
first, a lot of people have asked us to comment
on this recent social media thing everybody's
talking about. We have many opinions on many
different layers about this whole thing. And
since it's a very delicate matter, you know,
there are some serious legal accusations that
either way some... People have to be accountable.
When I say either way, it's like in case they're
true, some people have to be accountable. And
in case they're false, other people have to be
accountable. Even abuse or defamation. And since
we don't have the whole picture of the information
and we just hear versions, we wouldn't comment
about it. So we sadly will disappoint everybody
that wants an episode where we would intensely...
debate and talk comment by comment and version
by version but this is from the very beginning
we we have treated these issues like kitchen
abuse and these kind of things our approach was
taking it with with some humor even saying anonymous
names we have dealt in our own way with abuse
and our abusers And, well, here this guy is doing
it in his own way. So that's, at least from my
point of view, everything I have to say about
it. First and foremost is, you know, these sorts
of stories that have surfaced on social media,
you know, if something like that happens to somebody,
it should absolutely not be accepted. It should
be condemned. 100%. There's no world, there's
no little universe, and it doesn't matter how
fucking famous your kitchen is, where that should
be okay, right? Of course. Just like you, I think
I'm very skeptical about... I'm not skeptical
about the fact that people have suffered in that
kitchen, things that are not okay, 100%. What
I'm a little bit careful with is also the way
that these stories are surfacing and the person
that they're surfacing with. this person who
is posting on social media and making all this
stirring up all this all this stuff i heard some
pretty vile stories about that person in their
time in noma and so i think you should be very
careful who you point your finger at if your
own laundry isn't clean you know and while it
would be a good thing to expose bad stories you
know it's slipping a little bit into sensationalism
you know this guy is a little bit i think power
hungry now at this point like he's showing the
amount of views that his stories got and the
reshares and blah and now he's talking about
making a protest with bloody chef jackets because
that'll show them and it's kind of like how important
is the well -being of the people who have like
shared their stories with you And how important
is your own fame in this whole scenario and your
own like vendetta? I think that's why like I'd
much rather not really put my money on either
side. Do you know what I mean? It's at the end
of the day, we're also not really, we're not
privy to what exactly happened when and where.
At the end of the day, it's impossible to tell
for us, you know. And yeah, if you're in an abusive
environment, please get out. It doesn't matter.
It's not worth it. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't
matter for your CV. It's totally fine. Just get
out of the abusive environment and, um, yeah,
take care of yourself. Yeah. Just to add on top
of that. Also, the reason I'm very cautious on,
on saying anything is, you know, uh, take the,
the, this, uh, Johnny Depp case for instance,
you know, suddenly. There is a whole scandal
on abuse, and suddenly it was the other way around,
and it suddenly turned into a defamation scandal.
Reacting to the things on the very short term
and judging one side or the other, I do agree
with Phil that— Reactive is the right word, yeah.
Reactive, yeah. I do agree with Phil that there
is a very clear motivation on revenge and also
some— how to say it, some drunkenness on numbers
and attention that is this claims that suddenly
we're going to make the greatest movement in
culinary history. The power is going to be ours
and we're going to destroy them. And after that,
we can finally heal. And for me, that's a formula
for self -destruction. Like, it doesn't work
like that. It's not like if I destroy my past
enemies, then I can finally heal. uh it doesn't
work like that you know like yeah yeah unfortunately
because you know like like there would would
have been cool for people to be able to express
their experiences and again you know while we
have no like concrete information necessarily
i'm very sure that things have happened at nomad
that were not okay for sure like in an old Loads
of other restaurants, you know, we've talked
about it plenty of times. But it's a shame that
instead of giving these people a platform to
talk, it's kind of turned into, like you say,
this weird sort of vendetta power struggle kind
of thing. Yeah, crazy, crazy exploitant syndrome.
Yes, exactly, exactly. Always hear out both sides
of these stories. And most importantly, don't
let anybody, if you can, don't let anybody abuse
you. If you're in an abusive environment, get
out. It's really not worth it. Talk to somebody,
you know, communicate it, don't endorse it. And
yeah, so on the other side, you know, don't try
to tear people down. You know, nothing is gained
by dragging others down with you. There's also
like this narrative that I don't buy, this being
pushed. Like, yeah, this, that Noma has been
a criminal organization that has ruined systematically
the lives of everybody that has gone through
there. And it's like, dude, you're working as
a fermentation consultant. That profession didn't
have the market it has today. 30 years ago. You
know, I ask around a lot of people that work
at NOMA at some point or that is working at NOMA
right now. And, you know, everybody told me that
their lives were transformed positively, you
know, in a very significant way. That's the other
side of the story, you know, like, because suddenly,
you know, like this comparisons with ice or this
kind of things. We already talked about this
in one of the line episodes where we were talking
about this matters. There was also a scandal
here in Spain and suddenly comparisons with slavery
or the Holocaust were being made. And it's like,
you know, like it's just disrespectful to. those
matters that are way more serious and way more,
you know, like where people are being killed
and this kind of things, you know? A hundred
percent. It's sensationalistic and it's macabre.
It's not okay. And, you know, like, yeah, I also,
I know a lot of people from NOMA. I know a lot
of people who have been working on NOMA and the
people that I know have also always spoken very
highly of it. I'm not saying that those stories
aren't true just because we know a lot of people
that Had a good experience at NOMA. Both things
can be true. And I don't want to take away from
anybody who's had a bad experience there. And
I'm very sorry if you did. Yeah, like one thing
doesn't take away the other. That there have
been abusive workers that did abusive acts. I'm
also not taking away that. And I'm also not condemning
that because it's just wrong. Yeah, but part
of the reason we did all of these episodes without
saying names. One is to legally say for us as
a... committing some defamation claim that we
don't want to hold up because that's not the
point. The point is to have these conversations
and also find the tools for both sides. The abuser
also needs tools to overcome that behavior. These
are the things that will repair the industry,
not other things. That's the way I see it. So,
going back to the topic, imposter syndrome. Do
you have impostor syndrome sometimes? All the
time, man. All the time. Yeah, me too. So what's
the definition? It's like you feel you don't
have the skills and you're fooling everyone.
Yeah. Also, psychologically, the definition is
that you actually have the skills, but you don't
believe you have them. Yeah, you don't feel worthy.
You don't feel worthy enough to be in the spot
that you are, and you're mentally undermining
yourself and your own ability, right? I have
that almost every day. Me too. I've even come
to thinking that it can be healthy, or maybe
healthy is not the word, but maybe productive,
that it makes you push harder. That's probably
unhealthy, but... But in any case, it makes you
care more somehow, like of not fucking up, basically.
Yeah, hopefully. I mean, I think it's also not
a bad thing to have, right? I mean, it is important
to be confident in yourself and your own abilities,
but I think it's just as important to always
question. what you're doing is this kind of like
what i like with this like whole shokunin mindset
you know every day you start like approach everything
like it was your first time you know with the
same curiosity with the same or you know like
like imagine if you've never sliced a leak before
right and you cut open a leak for the first time
you see all the layers you see how it's built
and stuff and you're sort of like oh you know
you start like finding things out a little bit.
Obviously, at some point, you're not at that
point anymore. You slice the leak like a thousand
times, right? And your leak brunoise are all
perfect. But if... Every time that you take a
leak, even if it's the millionth time, you look
at it with this like attention to detail and
this like playful curiosity. I think that that's
such a beneficial mindset to have because it's
so easy. We talked about this so many times in
other episodes. It's so easy to get stuck in
what you think is true and right and what you're
used to and what you've learned and what you
grew up with and what your traditions, you know,
dictate. And we don't, it's such a small square,
right? It's such a small frame. And to break
out of that, you know, with curiosity and an
open mind is so, so cool. And I think that this
imposter syndrome sometimes maybe does it a little
bit because you also don't take yourself too
seriously. I think that's also really, really
important. I think people should stop taking
ourselves too seriously in general. In many,
like, parts of life, I think it will improve
your life dramatically. Whenever I manage to
do that, it improves my life dramatically. I
start enjoying what I'm doing more. I start finding
out things about the things that I'm doing while
I'm doing them that are surprising to me, you
know, because I let go, right? And it's actually
a really nice experience. So I think having imposter
syndrome is probably a sign of a healthy intelligence,
to be honest with you. Really? Okay. I can think
of maybe the first time that I gave a lecture
or the first time that I had to sit down with
a client. For sure, not the first time that I
was head chef or sous chef, because I think at
that point I already had like a lot of tools.
So and I already have seen a lot of things. Yet
at the same time, I remember feeling being unable
to be sous chef, for example, when I worked at
a Michelin star restaurant. It was like, no way,
no, no, no. I'm not by far ready to do this.
I'm miles away. No, no, no, I can't. And it's
interesting because I can think of a guy that
I worked with. This guy, he worked in some of
the best restaurants in the world. And after
that, he was already, I don't know, let's say
27. After that, he went to a top culinary school
and studied for four years. And after that, he
felt he was not ready to be a head chef. And
this guy was an excellent chef. I can think that
maybe he was too aggressive in terms of leadership.
He could definitely, he had the tools and the
disciplines and the knowledge and everything.
But he really felt he was unworthy. And for me,
this was... This really caught my attention because
I was thinking, like, what is going on in this
guy's head that he feels he can't do it? Have
you seen, like, these kind of cases or have you
experienced them yourself? Not in the way that
you're describing it, I don't think. Me, myself,
I think for me it was the other way around. Like,
when I first became sous chef and head chef,
I was, like, very young. and thought that I could
do it, but I didn't really know how to do it.
Like nobody taught me, right? So there's like
a big difference, right? So for example, nowadays,
when I hire somebody, I know now what skills
you need to have as a head chef. I didn't know
back then. I didn't know what skills you need
to have as a head chef when I became a head chef,
right? But also like the definition of what that
means, it changes, right? Because for me, a head
chef at some point, I thought a head chef was
a very good chef. controls all the cooking, all
the sections, all the blah, does orders, schedule,
makes the dishes, writes the menus, right? All
the other things that Edge has to do, you know?
Like, I had no idea about that. Like, which ones?
Like, being a shrink or a babysitter. Or a detective.
A plumber, a detective, a first aid responder.
Yeah, no, but like... Drug dealer. Hopefully
not. Like the whole managing aspect, what that
means, what it means to manage people, right?
I had no idea what that meant until much, much,
much later in my career when I was already head
chef for like four or five years or something.
and i went then to go to a place and then i was
like oh that's how you manage that's how you
can manage people you know so anyway like when
i became a chef i was like i i have the ability
like i have the confidence in myself that i believe
that i can solve anything like i might not know
how to do anything everything right i can i'm
a good chef And I have good experience and blah.
And I don't really have the knowledge, but I
believe in myself that I can acquire the knowledge
when I need to. That was my belief in myself.
And that's how I approached it. That's how I
approached being a sous chef. I had no support,
right? My first sous chef job, like I was sous
chef. And then at some point I got after like
a year, half a year, I got promoted to head chef
because there was no head chef, right? It was
completely, I was completely on my own. And so
it was kind of learned by doing, which led to
me. being not a very good manager maybe i was
a good cook and the kitchen was organized and
stuff and the orders always came in and the food
cost was okay but i i managed people like shit
like i i was horrible to them and so i kind of
had to like learn by doing nowadays i don't want
people to do that you know but going back to
the imposter syndrome you know i had imposter
syndrome but i was sort of like okay i definitely
i don't have imposter syndrome i am an imposter
right now because i don't know how to do the
job but I believe that I can figure it out, you
know? Yeah, like I would say that happened to
me also when I started like in very new positions,
like suddenly I went from the R &D of a restaurant
to operations director. You know, like, and it
was like, I was like, first thing that I did
is I went home and looked up on Wikipedia, what
the fuck are operations? A COO is, you know,
like, and the next day I would lecture people
on what COO is, blah, blah, blah. You don't know?
Ah, let me explain it to you. Ignorant. Yes.
But I think the way to overcome imposter syndrome
is basically fake it until you make it. What
do you think about that claim? Well, that's what
you're doing right now, as you said. It's what
I've done always, man. It's what I've done always,
always, always. I don't know when it stops. Yeah,
lying will... bring you very far so yeah it's
not really lying though it's not really lying
you know like it's um maybe in the beginning
of my career i did that i was like oh yeah i
know how to do that you know and i i wasn't really
lying because i was like i i'm very sure that
i can do it it can't be that difficult like if
you're doing it i can do it for sure i think
fake it until you make it i really believe that
because i do i do yeah i do sorry i had to i
had to i second guessed myself there for a second
But because I believe in taking it before it's
given to you, right? So very easy example, right?
You're a CDP, okay? And you are a very good CDP.
You are managing the other people on your section.
You are communicating your orders. You're looking
a little bit into other sections. And you're
thinking to yourself, I feel like I could be
ready to be a sous chef, right? So you think
to yourself, well, Like, what do you do? Do you
go to your chef and say, chef, I want to become
a sous chef. Can I have the promotion, please?
I feel like I can do it. Right. My mom told me
that I can do it. Yeah. Or I believe, I believe
that I can do it. I feel like I'm better than
everybody else, basically, is what you're saying.
And I'm better than all these other cunts, all
these other CDPs. Right. And you should give
me the position. Yeah. Chances are, maybe if
you're lucky, they're sort of like, okay, let
me think about it. Let's see. Give a couple of
months, I'll think about it. Best case. Best
case, yeah. Hey, Phil, have you subscribed to
our newsletter yet? We have a newsletter? What's
a newsletter about, Eric? Every month we share
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Now, rewind, right? You're a CDP and you're like,
I want to become sushi. I feel like I can. And
you start just doing it. Nobody gave you the
position. Nobody gave you the raise. You just
fucking start doing it. Just bit by bit. Say,
hey, chef, can I support you with the orders?
I'll start taking care of the orders. I'll communicate
to the sections. Fuck, what head chef wouldn't
be like, yes, 100 % here. Take the fucking clipboards.
Please. Thank you. I can finally have some, a
little bit more time of all the other shit that
I have to do. Right. You know, and all the other
stuff, you know, sort of like, Hey, you know,
I could do this. I could do that. And you just
start doing it. Who do you think they're going
to look for when the position opens up and they
want to hire somebody? It's a fucking no brainer.
It's you because you're already doing it. I feel
like that with everything. And like, and now
I'm, I'm now I'm turning 33 this weekend. I really
believe it. Like I have seen. I have done jumps
in my career and done things that I didn't think
I would like ever do, really. You just have to
do it. You just have to balls it through. There's
a fine line between bullshitting, if you don't
know what the fuck you're talking about, but
if you have some technical understanding and
you gather the knowledge in what you're doing,
you know, at some point you can reach. Like right
now, like I'm drawing fucking kitchen plans for
like three different sites right now. Like, you
know, blueprint. um shit you know yeah i've done
that as well i'm not a fucking architect like
i'm not a kitchen but at the end of the day an
architect is not a fucking chef exactly exactly
so like you know what are the the things are
that are functional and a kitchen has to be you
know it has to be form follows function not the
other way around yeah absolutely and i think
you know sort of like the idea is sort of like
well If you think of somebody that you admire
and you think of the skill set that they have
as sort of like, well, why did I have that skill
set? And why do you feel like you can't have
that skill set? You have to think back to Mugaritz
because the only thing stopping you from having
that skill set is your own determination, you
know, and your own will to do it. It's literally
just doing it. Like even if you wanted to be
a fucking stock trader, you know, and you wanted
to do that to yourself, you know, and if you
were really determined, you would just get the
knowledge, you get into it and you just do it.
And now, like, being the devil's advocate, what
would you say happens if you don't have the capacity?
You know, or whatever. Or suddenly, like, you
know that not everybody's built for everything.
Like, for example, I'm sure I won't be a good
musician or a good football player at all. But
imagine I take the self -determination to be
the best football player in the world. I will
never be. You know, like, just factually, I will
never be. What would you say about that other
side of someone who is pushing too hard on something
he actually doesn't belong in there? Like, where's
the point where you realize, you know, this is
not my thing. I should do something else. I think
what we're talking about there in that example
is not necessarily that they can't do it. They
just have unrealistic expectations, you know,
like you can incrementally. improve insanely
at playing football like you can't do that you
know but if from the get -go you set yourself
the goal i'm going to be the best football player
in the world like that is you know that is unsustainable
direction of energy like wanting to to destroy
a super world famous restaurant in order to be
healed in inside something like that is that
like uh i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry
No, it's okay. Sorry, everyone who got offended
by the joke. It'll be a lot. Minus 2 ,000 followers
easily. It's okay. We got a couple. Yeah, I think
this is the thing, right? It's kind of like,
well, what do you want? If I walk into a karate
dojo, right? Let's choose a real martial arts.
If I walk into a judo dojo, right? And I think
to myself, I am determined to be the best judoka
there ever was. And I go up to the... to the
black belt instructor and I'm like, I challenge
you to a Rhandori and then you get smacked left
and right. Instead, what you could have done
is sort of like, I'm going to every day, I'm
going to pick what I want and I'm going to every
day dedicate myself to improving in that. And
then you go train every day. How quickly you
will catapult upwards. I've seen a couple of
times people in kitchens like having that unrealistic.
kamikaze behavior on, you know, like having,
you know, like overconfidence and, you know,
like believing way too much in themselves. Like,
it is like, dude, you know, calibrated a little
bit, right? Yeah, yeah. It's rough. It's rough.
It's really nice when you let all of that go.
It's really, really nice. Life is a lot more
fun. Like I said, you know, if you don't take
yourself too serious and you just let it go.
And then, you know, and then you find yourself
in a place where if you're not the smartest person,
like you are the least smart person in the room,
you start enjoying the room a lot more, you know.
It doesn't start weighing on you, but you're
like, this is fucking amazing. You've left your
ego on the side and you're actually purely improving
now and purely enjoying both of those, which
are amazing, right? it's like dancing man you
can only dance if you stop thinking you know
you can and you listen to the music and you let
it go and you stop moving you know like it's
not like if you're thinking about everything
that could happen before and after and people
watching you and blah blah blah you're just destroying
yourself what about voguing i can evoke when
i think about it i can go like this or country
music dancing you know that's true like four
step yeah like line dancing yeah yeah exactly
nice nice nice i like that as one