Hi, everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks,
the show where we talk food, fire, and the beautiful
chaos of kitchens all from the cook's side of
the pass. I'm Goten, son of Goku, and I'm here
with Trunks, here to Vegeta. And today we're
going to talk about fusion. We're talking sushi,
tacos, kimchi, croquetas, and remixing of roots.
and whether culinary fusion is genius, gimmick,
or just globalization on a plate. But first...
What are your opinions on fusion? Like, fusion
cuisine, would you say... It's always a no -no.
It's something that's everywhere. We just don't
notice. What's your take on it? I think fusion...
First of all, thank you for choosing trunks for
me. I feel very flattered. Very nice. I can definitely
resonate with that. Yeah, fusion is such a strange
word, you know? I instinctively, when I hear
the word fusion related to cuisine, I cringe
a little bit. I'm like, eh. But if you think
about it... I cook definitely in a fusion sort
of way. And I will go one step further. I think
most people do nowadays. I think almost everything
is fusion in one way or another, whether you
may realize it or not. But if you, in your French
restaurant, do a little tuna sashimi dish with
a little, you know, whether it be with a little
grebiche dressing, whatever, you are adapting
techniques from another culture. And I don't
think that's bad. And my point... that we've
talked about before also is that we live in a
world where we live in a world, you know, like
those movie trailers in a world where the sun
doesn't shine anymore. So we live in a world
where so much information is not just accessible
to us, but thrust upon us, right? Like, I mean,
just look at social media, Instagram or whatever.
If you're a chef and you follow a couple of culinary
accounts on social media, you'll get a feed flooded
with dishes and creative stimuli from all around
the world. And of course, that's going to affect
you one way or another. You'll see a lot of things
that you like and you'll see a lot of things
that you don't like, right? And that is going
to influence you. Some people take that to an
extreme and see things and are like, oh, I want
to try that. But even if you don't do that, it
will influence you in a certain way. And I don't
think that that is necessarily a negative thing,
depending on how we deal with it. Right. It's
just kind of like the time that we live in. Yeah,
I completely agree with you. I think it's just
a matter of how are you framing your concept
and how are you presenting it? You know, like
I always remember a talk of Jose Andres where
he was saying like, yeah, I'm going to open like
a Mexican Chinese restaurant in Las Vegas. And
I was like, what the fuck is that? And then he
started explaining and he said like, yeah, their
name is going to be China Poblano. And that's
like a dress of a tradition of Chinese immigrants
in a specific region in Mexico. There is this
traditional fusion culinary that is Chinese Mexican.
Okay. So that said, there's also like taking
this kind of narratives or backgrounds. and just
doing whatever the fuck you want with that idea.
You know, like, saying like, yeah, there was
this Mexican -Chinese tradition, and I opened
a Mexican -Chinese restaurant, and I do whatever
I want, which is fine. I have no problem with
that. There are also examples like, and I have
to think about Pacta from Albert Adria, where
it was a part of El Barri restaurant group, and
Pacta was supposedly a Nikkei restaurant, okay?
But it was, so Nikkei is this, again, like a
traditional fusion of Japan, Japanese immigrants
in Peru. So it's this Japanese, Peruvian cuisine
that has been there for many decades or even
a century. Yeah. Very particular cooking, yeah.
Real Nikkei. It's basically Latin American cuisine
with a lot of Japanese influences, not the other
way around. But what he did at Pacta is basically
he took this idea and he made it his own. What
I heard from Peruvian friends is that whenever
they would go there, they would be like, okay,
this is nice, but this is not Nikkei. This is
something else. This is freestyle Japanese Peruvian.
At the end of the day, I think that the key is
to be very clear with your concept. There's also
this idea of there's a thin line between fusion
and confusion. As long as it's not confusion,
as long as it's clear we're doing this and this
is what we're doing. I respect that. If you start,
because at the end of the day, a big part of
hospitality and serving food has to do with storytelling.
There's a lot of people that can, you know, build
whatever the fuck story around the dish just
to justify that I'm going to, you know, take
some things that have no relation to each other
and I just built a story just to make it work,
right? Like that, I don't respect so much. I
totally agree with you. I really like this term
that you use between fusion and confusion. It
gets very convoluted. People get very, very lost,
especially nowadays in the modern restaurant
world. They get very lost in the storytelling.
A little bit too much sometimes. Not always,
right? Storytelling is amazing. It's a big tool.
We spoke about it before. And it's, I think,
pretty much indispensable. If you are a little
mom and pop neighborhood bistro somewhere, there
is a story behind that, whether you're trying
to tell it or not. If you're doing something
authentic, there is a story that people will
perceive it as that. Maybe you don't want to
communicate about storytelling, super important.
But a lot of people get really, really lost in
the storytelling. And I think it's fine to take
this concept, like, for example, the example
that you brought, you know, with this Chinese
-Mexican influence, where... you have a very
specific example. You're like, this exists. This
is a culture that exists. I'm going to take inspiration
from that. Like, you know, Nikkei cooking, you
know, is a very amazing thing or like whatever,
but you have to be very careful, right? Just
like when you're baking bread in Mexico, you
have to be very, very careful of what you're
doing, right? Because if you don't really understand
it, you know, calling things a certain way, if
you don't fully understand it, it's very, very
difficult. And I'm going to go one step further.
controversial opinion incoming okay okay okay
i am of the opinion that there isn't a cuisine
in the world that isn't fusion at this point
in time you know yeah like if you go if you go
back in time for sure For sure. Yeah, absolutely.
You know, like we spoke about Spanish food being
incredibly influenced at some point by the Arabs
coming over. You know, how many cultures and
cooking styles have been, like, for example,
think back to the Silk Road. What a huge movement
from one part of the world to the next and what
are like mix of cultures and carrying of ingredients
and different necessities that arise and interchanges
between like one culture and the next. I don't
think that there is any cooking culture that
hasn't to some degree been subject to what I
would call fusion, which is the interchange between
different places and different products and different
techniques and different traditions that has
taken place everywhere. Phil, do you recommend
podcasts to your friends? All the time. The best
way of showing friends that you care is recommending
a great podcast to listen to. I agree. If you're
listening right now, you should show your love
by recommending or show to all your best friends.
It will make them happy. It will make us happy.
PopLock Food Talks. Tell your friends. It will
make the world a better place. Think about Italian
cuisine. If I say Italian cuisine, like a lot
of people... first image that would come to their
mind. Maybe it's a pizza, but maybe it's a pasta
with tomato, right? So we have pasta that was
taken from the Asians and tomatoes that was taken
from America, right? And that's the new identity
or the current identity. And for some people
that, I don't know, that don't have like the
historical background, like a little kid, for
example, they would think that that has been
there for thousands of years, right? And that's
a very clear example. Recently, I saw a video
that it started like I was really interested,
like, wow, this is really interesting. And at
some point I was like, there is also this thing
that I am against, too, like this historical
victimization in some cases. You know, like I
was. Watching this reel of somebody explaining
the origin of olives and olive oil trees. And
I was like, well, most people relate olive to
the Mediterranean, which it is. But let's say
to, let's say, Italy, Spain, Greece, right? Like
these are the ideas people have, people relate
to the olive oil tree. A lot of people for sure,
yeah. Yeah, and then they said, like, well, the
olive oil trees can be tracked down to Palestine.
That's where they first came from. And I was
like, wow, this is really interesting. You know,
like, I didn't know, but it completely makes
sense. Like, many other things, or I don't know,
that humans come from Ethiopia, or I don't know,
like, this kind of things, I find it very interesting.
Yes. Up to that point, I was interested, and
then the next phrase is what I said, okay. And
it was like... until the Romans stole it from
us. And that's the reason, blah, blah, blah,
blah. And I was like, I don't know. Like, I don't
see Latin Americans crying about Asians having
chilies or Germans having potatoes. You know,
like, and that on one side. And on the other
side, what is exactly stealing? Taking a product.
and growing it in your own land, that's not stealing.
And this is something that has happened in history
many, many, many times. And I think this kind
of logics of historical victimization is no different
from Israel saying this land is ours because
it was 6 ,000 years ago, which I also don't agree
with. But this kind of thing of thinking like,
no, thousands of years this happened, and this
is the reason for this and that. I mean, in some
cases, it can make sense. In other senses, I
think it doesn't generate a solution for anything.
You know, that's my point. I get what you mean.
People get very, very pressed about this idea
of what is mine, what is ours, where am I from,
you know? What do I have? Like, what is mine
culturally, right? I honestly, I think too, apart
from maybe a couple of examples that I can't
think of right now, like, I think that's quite
silly. Because like I said before, I am of the
belief that every culture has undergone so much
change being mixed with other cultures in some
sort of way. And I see that as something good.
I see it as something good and something natural.
It's just the way that the world works is organic.
It makes it very hard. You know, you were saying
earlier, kind of like just going back to this
whole sort of like, what is fusion? What is confusion?
And you need to be very concise in your concept.
I find it very hard. Like I find it really difficult
to label things. And since the beginning of my
career, people are sort of like, oh, like what
cuisine do you specialize in? And I was always
like, I really don't know what to say. And I
know that a lot of people feel the same because
you as a creative, as a chef, you cook things
that move you, that are fun to you. Sometimes
that'll be a pasta. Sometimes that'll be a crudo.
Sometimes that'll be a salad, you know. Sometimes
that'll be a dessert or like whatever. sometimes
it'll be something completely unrelated. And
it's sort of like, well, what do you cook? What
kind of food do you cook? When I was in Berlin,
like one, two years ago, I was having dinner
with this very, very well -known food photographer
who does all the books for Alain Ducasse and
Tim Rauer and stuff like that. And he was asking
me, he was sort of like, oh, what sort of food
do you cook? And I was like, yeah, it's hard
to put a label on it, you know, because I'm so
sick of that fucking question. I also don't give
a fuck. And he's like, oh, don't tell me what
everybody's telling me, that you are a seasonal,
local produce -focused kitchen. And I'm like,
well, what the fuck is wrong with that? What's
the problem with that, you know? People, on one
hand, they want to slap a label on things, and
they need to. They need to understand why they
want to go somewhere, you know? You go to a Japanese
restaurant to eat. sushi, ramen, whatever that
restaurant specializes in. You go to an Italian
restaurant, you have a certain idea. And then
there's some restaurants where you go there because
of the chef and the style of food, even if it's
completely mixed up. And it's very hard to find
like a common denominator, I think. You know
what I mean? When you're kind of thinking about
restaurant concepts, you're sort of like, what
is the draw? What is the drawer that also, that
gives people a very, people, you have to approach
people like they're a little bit stupid, right?
You have to give them exactly the like base information.
It's like, you can come here to eat a pizza and
they're like, ah, okay, good pizza, got it. But
at the same time, leave yourself the space to
be creative and to cook as you want. To say,
well, fuck it. If I don't want to do a pizza
or if I want to put something else on a pizza,
then I will. Or I'll make, you know, whatever.
I'll use the oven for something else and I put
another dish on the menu. I think that's really,
really difficult nowadays because there's just
so much information about everything. You know,
like in marketing, there is this idea or this
concept, the unique selling proposition, the
USP, that if you're starting a business, you
should figure out what that is. And this should
be like one sentence. In one sentence, people
should understand what you're doing. If you are
not able to formulate that sentence, probably
you don't know it yourself. You don't know what
you're doing. Like, probably you're just, you
know, like, mixing up things and, you know, like
this. You know, like the street food vendors
that you find, let's say, in Berlin, where they're
like a kebab place, but they also do pastas and
pizzas. And they're not even Turkish or Italian.
They're from somewhere else. And, you know, like
they're... They don't know what they're doing.
They're, they just, they just own a, like a place
and they're just putting things on the menu just
to see how it goes. You know, like these places
are usually not very successful. Yeah. I wanted
to ask you something like with this thing of
fusion and confusion, how would you describe
like, like that, like in one sentence or in few
words or in a few sentences, how would you describe,
for example, if you were like a, like a restaurant
reviewer? And you have to explain to someone
what is diverso, like David Muñoz. I should describe
what diverso is? How would you put it in words?
Well, I haven't been to... Me neither, but you
know the ideas? You can get the ideas without
having been there. I mean, I would say it's a
Spanish avant -garde chef cooking with a lot
of broad Asian influence. A mix of Spanish and
Asian food in a very Spanish -style avant -garde
way. Yeah, I see the same. And I think it has
like an anchor, which is Spain. Yes, very much
so, yeah. Right? But then you have like all these
things around. But I would describe it very similarly,
right? Because there is no confusion. Even though
it could be perceived as such, but once you...
You know, like if you have some, some background
and you see what he's doing and you get it, it's
like, okay, this is, this is a concept, you know,
like this has like, this is framed somehow. And
I think that's very important in this case. Yeah,
absolutely. Like it's a blessing and a curse
at the same time. Like I remember when I was
at Favikin, Magnus Nielsen was saying sort of
like, oh, for like the first years he. really
wanted to separate himself from everything that
was happening in the world he just didn't want
to look at anything he didn't want to read any
cookbooks he didn't want to look at anything
because he didn't want to get influenced he really
wanted to be there which again is like to a certain
point probably bullshit you know and storytelling
but he wanted to be there in faviken in the middle
of nowhere and just focus on what he felt that
place should be like And be very free creatively,
not influenced. What's the trend? What are the
people doing? What's Noma doing? I mean, like
when he came up, it was the rise of Nordic cuisine,
right? It was the high, high, high time of Nordic
cuisine. And I think that's cool because it is
very, that's what I mean with a blessing and
a curse. You get carried away very easily and
you see something and you want to emulate. You
see things that are successful and you get carried
away with it. You're kind of like, oh, this is
cool. This is cool. That is cool. That is cool.
That is cool. There's too many things that are
cool. But kind of like, what do you want to do
instead of just replicating things? Because that
is also the trajectory of a chef, coming through
the ranks, you replicate other people's work
and ideas, and you learn the skills, you learn
the groundwork, and then at some point you start
a little bit developing your own taste, which
then again is kind of like, it's always going
to be influenced by your... by how you came up
right but and you know you can so easily nowadays
get caught as a chef who is you know making their
own dishes by just being too influenced you never
really reflect this sort of like well what do
i want to do what speaks from me like what what
is a what is an app a pure creative expression
from me can be something very simple right very
simple But that's the bad part of like this like
whole fusion aspect of cooking nowadays. This
is too much information. Sometimes I have to
switch off Instagram for a couple of days because
I'm just too saturated. And I feel like I start
cooking things and like this is because it's
superficial then, right? Sometimes you see something
that you really resonate with it. You kind of
make something similar and it works out. But
if you're just going here and there, it's too
superficial. And you'll try it and it'll be good
because you've got experience. But at the end
of the day, it won't excite you. It won't spark
any emotion. You won't be like, man, that's amazing.
Which is, I mean, what I would want from a dish.
Not like, yeah, tasty. I would want to be like,
oh, this is really great. Because you go to a
place like, tasty, you can have at home for breakfast.
But, oh my God, this is so good. You know, not
everybody can do that. That's why you go to a
restaurant. That's what should be the thing.
You mentioned something about growing up, right?
Like where you grow up, where you... But obviously
growing up also like influences you massively,
no? No, no, no. Because for me, that's also an
interesting point. Like I grew up in like a super
large city, you know? Caracas is a city when
I grew up with 5 million people living there
and with lots of immigrants from everywhere,
you know? Like, yet at the same time... There
is a very clear local food culture that you will
find in Venezuela, right? I think of Berlin,
for example. And, you know, Berlin is a city
that was completely destroyed just 80 years ago,
right? And then you had, like, it was occupied
by Russians. and Americans and whatever. And
then you have like this Soviet side of Berlin,
which also changed the economy, which also has
an impact on the way you eat. And then there
was like a massive migration of Turkish and Vietnamese
and, you know, like all of these things. And
Italians, yeah. All of these things shaped like
the food culture. And at some point, you don't,
it's more difficult to find like a... rooted
German cuisine in Berlin than it is, let's say,
in South Germany, where you feel it more present,
right? 100%, yeah. And I think that this really
plays a role in... But at the end of the day,
if you grow up in Berlin... You know, like all
of those things are your food culture, you know,
like the Turkish influence and the Vietnamese
and this and that. Exactly, yes. So you grow
up with a fusion or take New York, for example.
If you grow up in New York, maybe the last thing
that you care about is American food, American
cuisine, right? Like you will have so many options
from pretty much any country in the world. That
is somehow your anchor, your root. I think that's
part of the reason why large cities or cities
with a history like this, it's more natural to
mix up things. Let's take Singapore, for example.
If you go to this hawker market, every stand
is from a different cuisine from a different
region, and you have like 150 stands. And they're
Malaysian and Indian and Chinese and this and
that. And at the end of the day, if you create
a cuisine with that as your background, as the
city where you grew up, it's natural that things
will be mixed. I learned very late, I would say,
to appreciate deep -rooted food culture like
the one you have here in the Basque Country,
where it's... super pure, super minimalistic.
Coriander is already modern and disruptive. You
know, it's parsley, garlic, chili, maybe bay
leaf already like a borderline. But, you know,
like, and I also like that very much, you know,
like very, very ground deep traditions. yeah
100 100 and that's the cool thing is that we
have to like um the variety you know we have
and i think people should take it a little bit
more chill you know people get very like i said
earlier get very pressed you know who gets the
most pressed funnily enough it's the italian
americans the italian americans i said quotation
marks right they're like no You can't put the
mozzarella on this thing. And it's like, bro,
what are you talking about? First of all, you're
as Italian as a fucking cheeseburger. And second
of all, you are the fusion. You know, it's you.
That's very funny because Italian -American cuisine,
for me, has very little to do with Italy. Which
doesn't make it worse, you know? It's its own
thing and it's respectable. And I think it can
be very nice, like any cuisine. It can be very
nice or it can be horrible, right? But yeah,
there's a big gap between authentic Italian and
American Italian. Hey, Phil, have you subscribed
to our newsletter yet? We have a newsletter?
What's a newsletter about, Eric? Every month
we share one cool thing from the world of food
and restaurants, and occasionally a recipe we
swore we'd never share. Like your secret boiled
egg lemon tart recipe. But Eric, that was my
grandma's secret recipe. Not anymore. Subscribe
to our newsletter where we unveil all of Phil's
grandmother's secrets. There's a really cool
YouTube channel and magazines called Italia Squisita.
And they have amazing videos. Really, really
cool. I love watching them. Super nice. They
get really interesting people in most of the
time. Sometimes the people are trash. But I started
watching them because they had a couple of videos
that I found very funny. So they'll have these
videos where a couple of chefs from a certain
region will review videos about a traditional...
Italian recipe, like say pesto alla genovese.
And they'll sit together and they'll watch YouTube
clips of Jamie Oliver binging with Babish, blah,
blah, blah. And they'll comment and critique
it, right? Which is very funny to watch. And
they have some interesting insights. But, but.
But who are the ones watching? Like Italians
or? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Italian chefs from a certain
region. Okay. So they're judging how foreigners
do their traditions. Yeah. Sometimes foreigners,
sometimes not, you know, but they're just like
watching like viral videos and they are supposed
to be the experts because they're from the region
where the recipe is from. Right. And they're
like well -known chefs. Right. Like with Michelin
stars and stuff like that. Okay. Okay. I think
that makes them experts. No? Do you disagree?
It makes them serious craftsmen, not just some
random person. Yeah, exactly. Which is fine.
Funny videos. The next video, the follow -up
video, though, is them showing, so usually it's
three, each one of them showing their version
of the recipe. And you would think after a 20
-minute video of them shitting on people, not
doing it a traditional way, they would do a very,
very traditional recipe. Uh -uh. They do not.
The stuff that they come out with is the most
random, idiotic bullshit. Like they're sort of
like, OK, welcome to my restaurant. I'll show
you my version of the pesto. So we'll take the
agar agar and we'll take the freeze dried basil.
And they make the, like, not all of it is bad,
obviously. Like, there's some really lovely recipes
in there, but there's so many examples where
the stuff that they make, and I'm kind of like,
I'm sorry, but if anybody else would be making
this, and you had to watch a video of the shit
that you just made, you would shit on it so hard.
You would be like, this is the worst. You can't
do it like this. And it's such a funny and bizarre
dichotomy that, yeah, it's very entertaining.
Another thing that comes to my mind, for example,
is Tex -Mex. So I think Tex -Mex, a lot of people
look at it like, you know, it's not the real
Mexican food and this and that and blah, blah,
blah. But at the end of the day, it's a natural
thing. I mean, that land used to be Mexico and
it was, it turned into America. So, and this
has happened in many parts of the world. If you
go to South Spain, again, you will see the influence
of the Arabs. Uh, because they were there for
a couple of centuries, like about eight centuries
living in that land. So like, also I recently,
on the other side, I saw an interview with somebody
was asking some Mexicans like, uh, why are you
Mexicans obsessed with cowboy culture? And they
said, well, we invented it. Yeah. Something's
perfectly set. Absolutely. That's really funny,
actually. I never thought about it that way.