WEBVTT 00:00:04.250 --> 00:00:07.809 Hi, everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks, 00:00:07.809 --> 00:00:10.490 the show where we talk food, fire, and the beautiful 00:00:10.490 --> 00:00:13.150 chaos of kitchens all from the cook's side of 00:00:13.150 --> 00:00:17.510 the pass. I'm Goten, son of Goku, and I'm here 00:00:17.510 --> 00:00:21.109 with Trunks, here to Vegeta. And today we're 00:00:21.109 --> 00:00:24.910 going to talk about fusion. We're talking sushi, 00:00:25.010 --> 00:00:27.589 tacos, kimchi, croquetas, and remixing of roots. 00:00:28.239 --> 00:00:30.899 and whether culinary fusion is genius, gimmick, 00:00:30.899 --> 00:00:34.399 or just globalization on a plate. But first... 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:48.719 What are your opinions on fusion? Like, fusion 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:52.590 cuisine, would you say... It's always a no -no. 00:00:52.909 --> 00:00:55.350 It's something that's everywhere. We just don't 00:00:55.350 --> 00:00:58.750 notice. What's your take on it? I think fusion... 00:00:58.750 --> 00:01:00.490 First of all, thank you for choosing trunks for 00:01:00.490 --> 00:01:05.530 me. I feel very flattered. Very nice. I can definitely 00:01:05.530 --> 00:01:08.269 resonate with that. Yeah, fusion is such a strange 00:01:08.269 --> 00:01:10.810 word, you know? I instinctively, when I hear 00:01:10.810 --> 00:01:15.150 the word fusion related to cuisine, I cringe 00:01:15.150 --> 00:01:17.590 a little bit. I'm like, eh. But if you think 00:01:17.590 --> 00:01:20.719 about it... I cook definitely in a fusion sort 00:01:20.719 --> 00:01:24.400 of way. And I will go one step further. I think 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:28.359 most people do nowadays. I think almost everything 00:01:28.359 --> 00:01:31.620 is fusion in one way or another, whether you 00:01:31.620 --> 00:01:33.980 may realize it or not. But if you, in your French 00:01:33.980 --> 00:01:36.659 restaurant, do a little tuna sashimi dish with 00:01:36.659 --> 00:01:38.299 a little, you know, whether it be with a little 00:01:38.299 --> 00:01:40.739 grebiche dressing, whatever, you are adapting 00:01:40.739 --> 00:01:44.579 techniques from another culture. And I don't 00:01:44.579 --> 00:01:47.579 think that's bad. And my point... that we've 00:01:47.579 --> 00:01:51.120 talked about before also is that we live in a 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:55.000 world where we live in a world, you know, like 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:58.780 those movie trailers in a world where the sun 00:01:58.780 --> 00:02:01.040 doesn't shine anymore. So we live in a world 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:03.780 where so much information is not just accessible 00:02:03.780 --> 00:02:06.560 to us, but thrust upon us, right? Like, I mean, 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:08.740 just look at social media, Instagram or whatever. 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:11.340 If you're a chef and you follow a couple of culinary 00:02:11.340 --> 00:02:15.539 accounts on social media, you'll get a feed flooded 00:02:15.539 --> 00:02:20.599 with dishes and creative stimuli from all around 00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:23.139 the world. And of course, that's going to affect 00:02:23.139 --> 00:02:25.020 you one way or another. You'll see a lot of things 00:02:25.020 --> 00:02:26.639 that you like and you'll see a lot of things 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:29.219 that you don't like, right? And that is going 00:02:29.219 --> 00:02:31.539 to influence you. Some people take that to an 00:02:31.539 --> 00:02:33.840 extreme and see things and are like, oh, I want 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:36.139 to try that. But even if you don't do that, it 00:02:36.139 --> 00:02:39.300 will influence you in a certain way. And I don't 00:02:39.300 --> 00:02:41.479 think that that is necessarily a negative thing, 00:02:41.560 --> 00:02:44.039 depending on how we deal with it. Right. It's 00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:46.560 just kind of like the time that we live in. Yeah, 00:02:46.580 --> 00:02:48.979 I completely agree with you. I think it's just 00:02:48.979 --> 00:02:52.639 a matter of how are you framing your concept 00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:55.659 and how are you presenting it? You know, like 00:02:55.659 --> 00:02:59.860 I always remember a talk of Jose Andres where 00:02:59.860 --> 00:03:02.000 he was saying like, yeah, I'm going to open like 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:05.300 a Mexican Chinese restaurant in Las Vegas. And 00:03:05.300 --> 00:03:07.990 I was like, what the fuck is that? And then he 00:03:07.990 --> 00:03:11.270 started explaining and he said like, yeah, their 00:03:11.270 --> 00:03:15.009 name is going to be China Poblano. And that's 00:03:15.009 --> 00:03:18.789 like a dress of a tradition of Chinese immigrants 00:03:18.789 --> 00:03:21.930 in a specific region in Mexico. There is this 00:03:21.930 --> 00:03:27.250 traditional fusion culinary that is Chinese Mexican. 00:03:27.629 --> 00:03:32.969 Okay. So that said, there's also like taking 00:03:32.969 --> 00:03:36.879 this kind of narratives or backgrounds. and just 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:39.719 doing whatever the fuck you want with that idea. 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:42.319 You know, like, saying like, yeah, there was 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:45.120 this Mexican -Chinese tradition, and I opened 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:47.740 a Mexican -Chinese restaurant, and I do whatever 00:03:47.740 --> 00:03:49.740 I want, which is fine. I have no problem with 00:03:49.740 --> 00:03:52.580 that. There are also examples like, and I have 00:03:52.580 --> 00:03:55.479 to think about Pacta from Albert Adria, where 00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:58.939 it was a part of El Barri restaurant group, and 00:03:58.939 --> 00:04:03.699 Pacta was supposedly a Nikkei restaurant, okay? 00:04:04.270 --> 00:04:08.169 But it was, so Nikkei is this, again, like a 00:04:08.169 --> 00:04:13.110 traditional fusion of Japan, Japanese immigrants 00:04:13.110 --> 00:04:17.389 in Peru. So it's this Japanese, Peruvian cuisine 00:04:17.389 --> 00:04:19.769 that has been there for many decades or even 00:04:19.769 --> 00:04:23.509 a century. Yeah. Very particular cooking, yeah. 00:04:23.610 --> 00:04:28.220 Real Nikkei. It's basically Latin American cuisine 00:04:28.220 --> 00:04:30.959 with a lot of Japanese influences, not the other 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:34.000 way around. But what he did at Pacta is basically 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:37.959 he took this idea and he made it his own. What 00:04:37.959 --> 00:04:40.300 I heard from Peruvian friends is that whenever 00:04:40.300 --> 00:04:42.759 they would go there, they would be like, okay, 00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:44.779 this is nice, but this is not Nikkei. This is 00:04:44.779 --> 00:04:48.579 something else. This is freestyle Japanese Peruvian. 00:04:49.959 --> 00:04:52.079 At the end of the day, I think that the key is 00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:55.600 to be very clear with your concept. There's also 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:59.860 this idea of there's a thin line between fusion 00:04:59.860 --> 00:05:02.980 and confusion. As long as it's not confusion, 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:05.819 as long as it's clear we're doing this and this 00:05:05.819 --> 00:05:08.689 is what we're doing. I respect that. If you start, 00:05:08.910 --> 00:05:11.230 because at the end of the day, a big part of 00:05:11.230 --> 00:05:14.170 hospitality and serving food has to do with storytelling. 00:05:14.470 --> 00:05:17.110 There's a lot of people that can, you know, build 00:05:17.110 --> 00:05:20.430 whatever the fuck story around the dish just 00:05:20.430 --> 00:05:23.509 to justify that I'm going to, you know, take 00:05:23.509 --> 00:05:29.769 some things that have no relation to each other 00:05:29.769 --> 00:05:31.910 and I just built a story just to make it work, 00:05:31.970 --> 00:05:34.879 right? Like that, I don't respect so much. I 00:05:34.879 --> 00:05:37.500 totally agree with you. I really like this term 00:05:37.500 --> 00:05:41.160 that you use between fusion and confusion. It 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:43.740 gets very convoluted. People get very, very lost, 00:05:43.860 --> 00:05:46.620 especially nowadays in the modern restaurant 00:05:46.620 --> 00:05:50.860 world. They get very lost in the storytelling. 00:05:51.300 --> 00:05:53.579 A little bit too much sometimes. Not always, 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:55.420 right? Storytelling is amazing. It's a big tool. 00:05:55.500 --> 00:05:57.899 We spoke about it before. And it's, I think, 00:05:57.980 --> 00:06:01.680 pretty much indispensable. If you are a little 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:05.540 mom and pop neighborhood bistro somewhere, there 00:06:05.540 --> 00:06:07.740 is a story behind that, whether you're trying 00:06:07.740 --> 00:06:10.579 to tell it or not. If you're doing something 00:06:10.579 --> 00:06:13.079 authentic, there is a story that people will 00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:14.579 perceive it as that. Maybe you don't want to 00:06:14.579 --> 00:06:16.259 communicate about storytelling, super important. 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:18.560 But a lot of people get really, really lost in 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:22.660 the storytelling. And I think it's fine to take 00:06:22.660 --> 00:06:24.779 this concept, like, for example, the example 00:06:24.779 --> 00:06:26.560 that you brought, you know, with this Chinese 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:31.079 -Mexican influence, where... you have a very 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:34.019 specific example. You're like, this exists. This 00:06:34.019 --> 00:06:36.480 is a culture that exists. I'm going to take inspiration 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:38.620 from that. Like, you know, Nikkei cooking, you 00:06:38.620 --> 00:06:40.980 know, is a very amazing thing or like whatever, 00:06:41.100 --> 00:06:43.660 but you have to be very careful, right? Just 00:06:43.660 --> 00:06:45.920 like when you're baking bread in Mexico, you 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:47.300 have to be very, very careful of what you're 00:06:47.300 --> 00:06:50.800 doing, right? Because if you don't really understand 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:53.500 it, you know, calling things a certain way, if 00:06:53.500 --> 00:06:55.839 you don't fully understand it, it's very, very 00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:59.259 difficult. And I'm going to go one step further. 00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:02.660 controversial opinion incoming okay okay okay 00:07:02.660 --> 00:07:06.879 i am of the opinion that there isn't a cuisine 00:07:06.879 --> 00:07:09.759 in the world that isn't fusion at this point 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:13.060 in time you know yeah like if you go if you go 00:07:13.060 --> 00:07:16.230 back in time for sure For sure. Yeah, absolutely. 00:07:16.569 --> 00:07:19.329 You know, like we spoke about Spanish food being 00:07:19.329 --> 00:07:22.329 incredibly influenced at some point by the Arabs 00:07:22.329 --> 00:07:25.410 coming over. You know, how many cultures and 00:07:25.410 --> 00:07:27.550 cooking styles have been, like, for example, 00:07:27.610 --> 00:07:30.569 think back to the Silk Road. What a huge movement 00:07:30.569 --> 00:07:32.889 from one part of the world to the next and what 00:07:32.889 --> 00:07:35.930 are like mix of cultures and carrying of ingredients 00:07:35.930 --> 00:07:40.089 and different necessities that arise and interchanges 00:07:40.089 --> 00:07:43.709 between like one culture and the next. I don't 00:07:43.709 --> 00:07:46.230 think that there is any cooking culture that 00:07:46.230 --> 00:07:50.569 hasn't to some degree been subject to what I 00:07:50.569 --> 00:07:53.610 would call fusion, which is the interchange between 00:07:53.610 --> 00:07:56.269 different places and different products and different 00:07:56.269 --> 00:07:58.310 techniques and different traditions that has 00:07:58.310 --> 00:08:01.029 taken place everywhere. Phil, do you recommend 00:08:01.029 --> 00:08:04.519 podcasts to your friends? All the time. The best 00:08:04.519 --> 00:08:06.699 way of showing friends that you care is recommending 00:08:06.699 --> 00:08:09.779 a great podcast to listen to. I agree. If you're 00:08:09.779 --> 00:08:12.399 listening right now, you should show your love 00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:15.459 by recommending or show to all your best friends. 00:08:15.660 --> 00:08:18.860 It will make them happy. It will make us happy. 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:21.879 PopLock Food Talks. Tell your friends. It will 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:26.560 make the world a better place. Think about Italian 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:29.759 cuisine. If I say Italian cuisine, like a lot 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:32.549 of people... first image that would come to their 00:08:32.549 --> 00:08:36.750 mind. Maybe it's a pizza, but maybe it's a pasta 00:08:36.750 --> 00:08:40.309 with tomato, right? So we have pasta that was 00:08:40.309 --> 00:08:43.230 taken from the Asians and tomatoes that was taken 00:08:43.230 --> 00:08:47.049 from America, right? And that's the new identity 00:08:47.049 --> 00:08:50.070 or the current identity. And for some people 00:08:50.070 --> 00:08:53.090 that, I don't know, that don't have like the 00:08:53.090 --> 00:08:55.429 historical background, like a little kid, for 00:08:55.429 --> 00:08:57.590 example, they would think that that has been 00:08:57.590 --> 00:09:00.830 there for thousands of years, right? And that's 00:09:00.830 --> 00:09:03.730 a very clear example. Recently, I saw a video 00:09:03.730 --> 00:09:07.730 that it started like I was really interested, 00:09:07.830 --> 00:09:09.129 like, wow, this is really interesting. And at 00:09:09.129 --> 00:09:10.950 some point I was like, there is also this thing 00:09:10.950 --> 00:09:14.870 that I am against, too, like this historical 00:09:14.870 --> 00:09:17.429 victimization in some cases. You know, like I 00:09:17.429 --> 00:09:20.360 was. Watching this reel of somebody explaining 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:24.440 the origin of olives and olive oil trees. And 00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:28.159 I was like, well, most people relate olive to 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:31.720 the Mediterranean, which it is. But let's say 00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:36.080 to, let's say, Italy, Spain, Greece, right? Like 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:40.639 these are the ideas people have, people relate 00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:44.559 to the olive oil tree. A lot of people for sure, 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:46.879 yeah. Yeah, and then they said, like, well, the 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:50.659 olive oil trees can be tracked down to Palestine. 00:09:51.059 --> 00:09:54.559 That's where they first came from. And I was 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:56.159 like, wow, this is really interesting. You know, 00:09:56.220 --> 00:09:57.879 like, I didn't know, but it completely makes 00:09:57.879 --> 00:10:01.039 sense. Like, many other things, or I don't know, 00:10:01.059 --> 00:10:03.519 that humans come from Ethiopia, or I don't know, 00:10:03.539 --> 00:10:05.980 like, this kind of things, I find it very interesting. 00:10:06.539 --> 00:10:09.139 Yes. Up to that point, I was interested, and 00:10:09.139 --> 00:10:13.519 then the next phrase is what I said, okay. And 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:16.879 it was like... until the Romans stole it from 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:20.279 us. And that's the reason, blah, blah, blah, 00:10:20.340 --> 00:10:23.659 blah. And I was like, I don't know. Like, I don't 00:10:23.659 --> 00:10:28.039 see Latin Americans crying about Asians having 00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:31.820 chilies or Germans having potatoes. You know, 00:10:31.860 --> 00:10:34.840 like, and that on one side. And on the other 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:37.600 side, what is exactly stealing? Taking a product. 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:41.200 and growing it in your own land, that's not stealing. 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:44.779 And this is something that has happened in history 00:10:44.779 --> 00:10:47.419 many, many, many times. And I think this kind 00:10:47.419 --> 00:10:50.779 of logics of historical victimization is no different 00:10:50.779 --> 00:10:54.639 from Israel saying this land is ours because 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:57.519 it was 6 ,000 years ago, which I also don't agree 00:10:57.519 --> 00:11:00.080 with. But this kind of thing of thinking like, 00:11:00.139 --> 00:11:02.620 no, thousands of years this happened, and this 00:11:02.620 --> 00:11:04.970 is the reason for this and that. I mean, in some 00:11:04.970 --> 00:11:09.129 cases, it can make sense. In other senses, I 00:11:09.129 --> 00:11:11.769 think it doesn't generate a solution for anything. 00:11:12.110 --> 00:11:15.370 You know, that's my point. I get what you mean. 00:11:15.409 --> 00:11:17.409 People get very, very pressed about this idea 00:11:17.409 --> 00:11:20.409 of what is mine, what is ours, where am I from, 00:11:20.610 --> 00:11:24.750 you know? What do I have? Like, what is mine 00:11:24.750 --> 00:11:28.909 culturally, right? I honestly, I think too, apart 00:11:28.909 --> 00:11:30.809 from maybe a couple of examples that I can't 00:11:30.809 --> 00:11:32.889 think of right now, like, I think that's quite 00:11:32.889 --> 00:11:35.360 silly. Because like I said before, I am of the 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:38.360 belief that every culture has undergone so much 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:41.779 change being mixed with other cultures in some 00:11:41.779 --> 00:11:45.399 sort of way. And I see that as something good. 00:11:45.500 --> 00:11:47.519 I see it as something good and something natural. 00:11:47.620 --> 00:11:50.080 It's just the way that the world works is organic. 00:11:50.299 --> 00:11:52.899 It makes it very hard. You know, you were saying 00:11:52.899 --> 00:11:55.059 earlier, kind of like just going back to this 00:11:55.059 --> 00:11:56.919 whole sort of like, what is fusion? What is confusion? 00:11:57.340 --> 00:11:59.580 And you need to be very concise in your concept. 00:12:00.179 --> 00:12:04.070 I find it very hard. Like I find it really difficult 00:12:04.070 --> 00:12:06.970 to label things. And since the beginning of my 00:12:06.970 --> 00:12:08.850 career, people are sort of like, oh, like what 00:12:08.850 --> 00:12:11.549 cuisine do you specialize in? And I was always 00:12:11.549 --> 00:12:13.409 like, I really don't know what to say. And I 00:12:13.409 --> 00:12:15.629 know that a lot of people feel the same because 00:12:15.629 --> 00:12:19.730 you as a creative, as a chef, you cook things 00:12:19.730 --> 00:12:21.769 that move you, that are fun to you. Sometimes 00:12:21.769 --> 00:12:24.509 that'll be a pasta. Sometimes that'll be a crudo. 00:12:24.649 --> 00:12:26.970 Sometimes that'll be a salad, you know. Sometimes 00:12:26.970 --> 00:12:29.740 that'll be a dessert or like whatever. sometimes 00:12:29.740 --> 00:12:31.779 it'll be something completely unrelated. And 00:12:31.779 --> 00:12:33.580 it's sort of like, well, what do you cook? What 00:12:33.580 --> 00:12:35.620 kind of food do you cook? When I was in Berlin, 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:39.200 like one, two years ago, I was having dinner 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:41.980 with this very, very well -known food photographer 00:12:41.980 --> 00:12:44.240 who does all the books for Alain Ducasse and 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:46.820 Tim Rauer and stuff like that. And he was asking 00:12:46.820 --> 00:12:48.059 me, he was sort of like, oh, what sort of food 00:12:48.059 --> 00:12:49.519 do you cook? And I was like, yeah, it's hard 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:51.379 to put a label on it, you know, because I'm so 00:12:51.379 --> 00:12:53.100 sick of that fucking question. I also don't give 00:12:53.100 --> 00:12:56.120 a fuck. And he's like, oh, don't tell me what 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:58.279 everybody's telling me, that you are a seasonal, 00:12:58.379 --> 00:13:01.820 local produce -focused kitchen. And I'm like, 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:03.419 well, what the fuck is wrong with that? What's 00:13:03.419 --> 00:13:06.080 the problem with that, you know? People, on one 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:08.700 hand, they want to slap a label on things, and 00:13:08.700 --> 00:13:11.659 they need to. They need to understand why they 00:13:11.659 --> 00:13:14.539 want to go somewhere, you know? You go to a Japanese 00:13:14.539 --> 00:13:17.639 restaurant to eat. sushi, ramen, whatever that 00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:19.460 restaurant specializes in. You go to an Italian 00:13:19.460 --> 00:13:21.519 restaurant, you have a certain idea. And then 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:23.740 there's some restaurants where you go there because 00:13:23.740 --> 00:13:26.120 of the chef and the style of food, even if it's 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:28.940 completely mixed up. And it's very hard to find 00:13:28.940 --> 00:13:31.200 like a common denominator, I think. You know 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:32.659 what I mean? When you're kind of thinking about 00:13:32.659 --> 00:13:34.299 restaurant concepts, you're sort of like, what 00:13:34.299 --> 00:13:37.179 is the draw? What is the drawer that also, that 00:13:37.179 --> 00:13:39.799 gives people a very, people, you have to approach 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:41.139 people like they're a little bit stupid, right? 00:13:41.299 --> 00:13:44.220 You have to give them exactly the like base information. 00:13:44.220 --> 00:13:46.799 It's like, you can come here to eat a pizza and 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:49.220 they're like, ah, okay, good pizza, got it. But 00:13:49.220 --> 00:13:52.519 at the same time, leave yourself the space to 00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:55.299 be creative and to cook as you want. To say, 00:13:55.299 --> 00:13:57.419 well, fuck it. If I don't want to do a pizza 00:13:57.419 --> 00:13:59.120 or if I want to put something else on a pizza, 00:13:59.240 --> 00:14:01.970 then I will. Or I'll make, you know, whatever. 00:14:02.149 --> 00:14:03.970 I'll use the oven for something else and I put 00:14:03.970 --> 00:14:05.909 another dish on the menu. I think that's really, 00:14:06.029 --> 00:14:07.769 really difficult nowadays because there's just 00:14:07.769 --> 00:14:09.990 so much information about everything. You know, 00:14:10.009 --> 00:14:12.990 like in marketing, there is this idea or this 00:14:12.990 --> 00:14:16.330 concept, the unique selling proposition, the 00:14:16.330 --> 00:14:19.309 USP, that if you're starting a business, you 00:14:19.309 --> 00:14:21.850 should figure out what that is. And this should 00:14:21.850 --> 00:14:25.070 be like one sentence. In one sentence, people 00:14:25.070 --> 00:14:28.019 should understand what you're doing. If you are 00:14:28.019 --> 00:14:30.919 not able to formulate that sentence, probably 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:33.059 you don't know it yourself. You don't know what 00:14:33.059 --> 00:14:35.879 you're doing. Like, probably you're just, you 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:39.059 know, like, mixing up things and, you know, like 00:14:39.059 --> 00:14:41.639 this. You know, like the street food vendors 00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:44.100 that you find, let's say, in Berlin, where they're 00:14:44.100 --> 00:14:47.240 like a kebab place, but they also do pastas and 00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:51.279 pizzas. And they're not even Turkish or Italian. 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:53.820 They're from somewhere else. And, you know, like 00:14:53.820 --> 00:14:56.539 they're... They don't know what they're doing. 00:14:56.700 --> 00:15:00.100 They're, they just, they just own a, like a place 00:15:00.100 --> 00:15:03.100 and they're just putting things on the menu just 00:15:03.100 --> 00:15:05.039 to see how it goes. You know, like these places 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:08.580 are usually not very successful. Yeah. I wanted 00:15:08.580 --> 00:15:10.700 to ask you something like with this thing of 00:15:10.700 --> 00:15:13.519 fusion and confusion, how would you describe 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:16.299 like, like that, like in one sentence or in few 00:15:16.299 --> 00:15:20.039 words or in a few sentences, how would you describe, 00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:22.960 for example, if you were like a, like a restaurant 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:25.419 reviewer? And you have to explain to someone 00:15:25.419 --> 00:15:31.120 what is diverso, like David Muñoz. I should describe 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:33.399 what diverso is? How would you put it in words? 00:15:33.659 --> 00:15:35.820 Well, I haven't been to... Me neither, but you 00:15:35.820 --> 00:15:38.919 know the ideas? You can get the ideas without 00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:42.159 having been there. I mean, I would say it's a 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:47.320 Spanish avant -garde chef cooking with a lot 00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:52.279 of broad Asian influence. A mix of Spanish and 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:54.919 Asian food in a very Spanish -style avant -garde 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:59.940 way. Yeah, I see the same. And I think it has 00:15:59.940 --> 00:16:05.860 like an anchor, which is Spain. Yes, very much 00:16:05.860 --> 00:16:09.000 so, yeah. Right? But then you have like all these 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:12.620 things around. But I would describe it very similarly, 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:15.980 right? Because there is no confusion. Even though 00:16:15.980 --> 00:16:19.019 it could be perceived as such, but once you... 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:21.840 You know, like if you have some, some background 00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:24.080 and you see what he's doing and you get it, it's 00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:26.759 like, okay, this is, this is a concept, you know, 00:16:26.779 --> 00:16:31.679 like this has like, this is framed somehow. And 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:34.879 I think that's very important in this case. Yeah, 00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:37.059 absolutely. Like it's a blessing and a curse 00:16:37.059 --> 00:16:39.659 at the same time. Like I remember when I was 00:16:39.659 --> 00:16:42.539 at Favikin, Magnus Nielsen was saying sort of 00:16:42.539 --> 00:16:45.649 like, oh, for like the first years he. really 00:16:45.649 --> 00:16:47.629 wanted to separate himself from everything that 00:16:47.629 --> 00:16:49.330 was happening in the world he just didn't want 00:16:49.330 --> 00:16:51.090 to look at anything he didn't want to read any 00:16:51.090 --> 00:16:52.610 cookbooks he didn't want to look at anything 00:16:52.610 --> 00:16:55.809 because he didn't want to get influenced he really 00:16:55.809 --> 00:16:59.370 wanted to be there which again is like to a certain 00:16:59.370 --> 00:17:01.690 point probably bullshit you know and storytelling 00:17:01.690 --> 00:17:05.390 but he wanted to be there in faviken in the middle 00:17:05.390 --> 00:17:09.329 of nowhere and just focus on what he felt that 00:17:09.329 --> 00:17:12.759 place should be like And be very free creatively, 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:15.380 not influenced. What's the trend? What are the 00:17:15.380 --> 00:17:18.339 people doing? What's Noma doing? I mean, like 00:17:18.339 --> 00:17:20.359 when he came up, it was the rise of Nordic cuisine, 00:17:20.539 --> 00:17:23.359 right? It was the high, high, high time of Nordic 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:26.339 cuisine. And I think that's cool because it is 00:17:26.339 --> 00:17:28.720 very, that's what I mean with a blessing and 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:31.859 a curse. You get carried away very easily and 00:17:31.859 --> 00:17:34.720 you see something and you want to emulate. You 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:36.539 see things that are successful and you get carried 00:17:36.539 --> 00:17:38.380 away with it. You're kind of like, oh, this is 00:17:38.380 --> 00:17:40.220 cool. This is cool. That is cool. That is cool. 00:17:40.259 --> 00:17:41.980 That is cool. There's too many things that are 00:17:41.980 --> 00:17:48.279 cool. But kind of like, what do you want to do 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:51.180 instead of just replicating things? Because that 00:17:51.180 --> 00:17:54.019 is also the trajectory of a chef, coming through 00:17:54.019 --> 00:17:57.180 the ranks, you replicate other people's work 00:17:57.180 --> 00:18:00.140 and ideas, and you learn the skills, you learn 00:18:00.140 --> 00:18:03.559 the groundwork, and then at some point you start 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:06.380 a little bit developing your own taste, which 00:18:06.380 --> 00:18:08.839 then again is kind of like, it's always going 00:18:08.839 --> 00:18:11.720 to be influenced by your... by how you came up 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:15.940 right but and you know you can so easily nowadays 00:18:15.940 --> 00:18:18.619 get caught as a chef who is you know making their 00:18:18.619 --> 00:18:21.920 own dishes by just being too influenced you never 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:24.420 really reflect this sort of like well what do 00:18:24.420 --> 00:18:27.700 i want to do what speaks from me like what what 00:18:27.700 --> 00:18:30.880 is a what is an app a pure creative expression 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:34.660 from me can be something very simple right very 00:18:34.660 --> 00:18:37.869 simple But that's the bad part of like this like 00:18:37.869 --> 00:18:41.250 whole fusion aspect of cooking nowadays. This 00:18:41.250 --> 00:18:43.769 is too much information. Sometimes I have to 00:18:43.769 --> 00:18:46.549 switch off Instagram for a couple of days because 00:18:46.549 --> 00:18:50.410 I'm just too saturated. And I feel like I start 00:18:50.410 --> 00:18:53.329 cooking things and like this is because it's 00:18:53.329 --> 00:18:56.029 superficial then, right? Sometimes you see something 00:18:56.029 --> 00:18:57.769 that you really resonate with it. You kind of 00:18:57.769 --> 00:18:59.670 make something similar and it works out. But 00:18:59.670 --> 00:19:01.349 if you're just going here and there, it's too 00:19:01.349 --> 00:19:03.869 superficial. And you'll try it and it'll be good 00:19:03.869 --> 00:19:06.349 because you've got experience. But at the end 00:19:06.349 --> 00:19:08.190 of the day, it won't excite you. It won't spark 00:19:08.190 --> 00:19:11.150 any emotion. You won't be like, man, that's amazing. 00:19:11.250 --> 00:19:13.890 Which is, I mean, what I would want from a dish. 00:19:13.930 --> 00:19:16.049 Not like, yeah, tasty. I would want to be like, 00:19:16.170 --> 00:19:18.529 oh, this is really great. Because you go to a 00:19:18.529 --> 00:19:20.670 place like, tasty, you can have at home for breakfast. 00:19:21.130 --> 00:19:23.529 But, oh my God, this is so good. You know, not 00:19:23.529 --> 00:19:25.049 everybody can do that. That's why you go to a 00:19:25.049 --> 00:19:26.829 restaurant. That's what should be the thing. 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:30.200 You mentioned something about growing up, right? 00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:32.579 Like where you grow up, where you... But obviously 00:19:32.579 --> 00:19:35.440 growing up also like influences you massively, 00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:39.200 no? No, no, no. Because for me, that's also an 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:41.619 interesting point. Like I grew up in like a super 00:19:41.619 --> 00:19:44.440 large city, you know? Caracas is a city when 00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:47.039 I grew up with 5 million people living there 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:51.779 and with lots of immigrants from everywhere, 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:55.119 you know? Like, yet at the same time... There 00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:59.519 is a very clear local food culture that you will 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:04.599 find in Venezuela, right? I think of Berlin, 00:20:04.819 --> 00:20:08.160 for example. And, you know, Berlin is a city 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:12.859 that was completely destroyed just 80 years ago, 00:20:13.019 --> 00:20:16.539 right? And then you had, like, it was occupied 00:20:16.539 --> 00:20:22.200 by Russians. and Americans and whatever. And 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:25.799 then you have like this Soviet side of Berlin, 00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:29.359 which also changed the economy, which also has 00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:32.359 an impact on the way you eat. And then there 00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:36.200 was like a massive migration of Turkish and Vietnamese 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:38.480 and, you know, like all of these things. And 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:40.880 Italians, yeah. All of these things shaped like 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:44.680 the food culture. And at some point, you don't, 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:47.960 it's more difficult to find like a... rooted 00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:50.839 German cuisine in Berlin than it is, let's say, 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:55.160 in South Germany, where you feel it more present, 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:59.059 right? 100%, yeah. And I think that this really 00:20:59.059 --> 00:21:02.380 plays a role in... But at the end of the day, 00:21:02.420 --> 00:21:05.029 if you grow up in Berlin... You know, like all 00:21:05.029 --> 00:21:08.009 of those things are your food culture, you know, 00:21:08.049 --> 00:21:10.269 like the Turkish influence and the Vietnamese 00:21:10.269 --> 00:21:14.250 and this and that. Exactly, yes. So you grow 00:21:14.250 --> 00:21:17.210 up with a fusion or take New York, for example. 00:21:17.309 --> 00:21:19.809 If you grow up in New York, maybe the last thing 00:21:19.809 --> 00:21:23.869 that you care about is American food, American 00:21:23.869 --> 00:21:27.490 cuisine, right? Like you will have so many options 00:21:27.490 --> 00:21:30.769 from pretty much any country in the world. That 00:21:30.769 --> 00:21:36.890 is somehow your anchor, your root. I think that's 00:21:36.890 --> 00:21:40.490 part of the reason why large cities or cities 00:21:40.490 --> 00:21:44.569 with a history like this, it's more natural to 00:21:44.569 --> 00:21:48.130 mix up things. Let's take Singapore, for example. 00:21:48.190 --> 00:21:51.869 If you go to this hawker market, every stand 00:21:51.869 --> 00:21:54.390 is from a different cuisine from a different 00:21:54.390 --> 00:22:00.039 region, and you have like 150 stands. And they're 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:02.700 Malaysian and Indian and Chinese and this and 00:22:02.700 --> 00:22:06.839 that. And at the end of the day, if you create 00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:12.180 a cuisine with that as your background, as the 00:22:12.180 --> 00:22:14.900 city where you grew up, it's natural that things 00:22:14.900 --> 00:22:18.519 will be mixed. I learned very late, I would say, 00:22:18.539 --> 00:22:23.140 to appreciate deep -rooted food culture like 00:22:23.140 --> 00:22:25.160 the one you have here in the Basque Country, 00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:28.680 where it's... super pure, super minimalistic. 00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:34.299 Coriander is already modern and disruptive. You 00:22:34.299 --> 00:22:39.099 know, it's parsley, garlic, chili, maybe bay 00:22:39.099 --> 00:22:42.400 leaf already like a borderline. But, you know, 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:44.539 like, and I also like that very much, you know, 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:50.160 like very, very ground deep traditions. yeah 00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:53.220 100 100 and that's the cool thing is that we 00:22:53.220 --> 00:22:56.900 have to like um the variety you know we have 00:22:56.900 --> 00:22:58.700 and i think people should take it a little bit 00:22:58.700 --> 00:23:00.500 more chill you know people get very like i said 00:23:00.500 --> 00:23:03.660 earlier get very pressed you know who gets the 00:23:03.660 --> 00:23:08.079 most pressed funnily enough it's the italian 00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:11.559 americans the italian americans i said quotation 00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:17.220 marks right they're like no You can't put the 00:23:17.220 --> 00:23:19.900 mozzarella on this thing. And it's like, bro, 00:23:19.980 --> 00:23:22.039 what are you talking about? First of all, you're 00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:25.299 as Italian as a fucking cheeseburger. And second 00:23:25.299 --> 00:23:30.150 of all, you are the fusion. You know, it's you. 00:23:30.410 --> 00:23:34.150 That's very funny because Italian -American cuisine, 00:23:34.269 --> 00:23:37.829 for me, has very little to do with Italy. Which 00:23:37.829 --> 00:23:40.490 doesn't make it worse, you know? It's its own 00:23:40.490 --> 00:23:43.690 thing and it's respectable. And I think it can 00:23:43.690 --> 00:23:46.410 be very nice, like any cuisine. It can be very 00:23:46.410 --> 00:23:50.789 nice or it can be horrible, right? But yeah, 00:23:50.910 --> 00:23:54.970 there's a big gap between authentic Italian and 00:23:54.970 --> 00:23:57.829 American Italian. Hey, Phil, have you subscribed 00:23:57.829 --> 00:24:00.470 to our newsletter yet? We have a newsletter? 00:24:00.910 --> 00:24:03.789 What's a newsletter about, Eric? Every month 00:24:03.789 --> 00:24:06.150 we share one cool thing from the world of food 00:24:06.150 --> 00:24:09.069 and restaurants, and occasionally a recipe we 00:24:09.069 --> 00:24:12.190 swore we'd never share. Like your secret boiled 00:24:12.190 --> 00:24:15.410 egg lemon tart recipe. But Eric, that was my 00:24:15.410 --> 00:24:19.069 grandma's secret recipe. Not anymore. Subscribe 00:24:19.069 --> 00:24:22.029 to our newsletter where we unveil all of Phil's 00:24:22.029 --> 00:24:28.680 grandmother's secrets. There's a really cool 00:24:28.680 --> 00:24:31.880 YouTube channel and magazines called Italia Squisita. 00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:35.900 And they have amazing videos. Really, really 00:24:35.900 --> 00:24:37.700 cool. I love watching them. Super nice. They 00:24:37.700 --> 00:24:39.599 get really interesting people in most of the 00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:45.299 time. Sometimes the people are trash. But I started 00:24:45.299 --> 00:24:47.380 watching them because they had a couple of videos 00:24:47.380 --> 00:24:49.500 that I found very funny. So they'll have these 00:24:49.500 --> 00:24:51.940 videos where a couple of chefs from a certain 00:24:51.940 --> 00:24:54.920 region will review videos about a traditional... 00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:58.000 Italian recipe, like say pesto alla genovese. 00:24:58.039 --> 00:25:00.460 And they'll sit together and they'll watch YouTube 00:25:00.460 --> 00:25:04.259 clips of Jamie Oliver binging with Babish, blah, 00:25:04.460 --> 00:25:06.220 blah, blah. And they'll comment and critique 00:25:06.220 --> 00:25:09.240 it, right? Which is very funny to watch. And 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:11.799 they have some interesting insights. But, but. 00:25:11.900 --> 00:25:14.259 But who are the ones watching? Like Italians 00:25:14.259 --> 00:25:16.759 or? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Italian chefs from a certain 00:25:16.759 --> 00:25:20.160 region. Okay. So they're judging how foreigners 00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:23.670 do their traditions. Yeah. Sometimes foreigners, 00:25:23.849 --> 00:25:25.430 sometimes not, you know, but they're just like 00:25:25.430 --> 00:25:28.269 watching like viral videos and they are supposed 00:25:28.269 --> 00:25:30.210 to be the experts because they're from the region 00:25:30.210 --> 00:25:32.069 where the recipe is from. Right. And they're 00:25:32.069 --> 00:25:34.529 like well -known chefs. Right. Like with Michelin 00:25:34.529 --> 00:25:37.789 stars and stuff like that. Okay. Okay. I think 00:25:37.789 --> 00:25:40.470 that makes them experts. No? Do you disagree? 00:25:40.690 --> 00:25:44.630 It makes them serious craftsmen, not just some 00:25:44.630 --> 00:25:48.390 random person. Yeah, exactly. Which is fine. 00:25:48.569 --> 00:25:51.440 Funny videos. The next video, the follow -up 00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:55.740 video, though, is them showing, so usually it's 00:25:55.740 --> 00:25:58.400 three, each one of them showing their version 00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:01.619 of the recipe. And you would think after a 20 00:26:01.619 --> 00:26:03.539 -minute video of them shitting on people, not 00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:06.619 doing it a traditional way, they would do a very, 00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:09.750 very traditional recipe. Uh -uh. They do not. 00:26:09.849 --> 00:26:12.910 The stuff that they come out with is the most 00:26:12.910 --> 00:26:16.509 random, idiotic bullshit. Like they're sort of 00:26:16.509 --> 00:26:20.150 like, OK, welcome to my restaurant. I'll show 00:26:20.150 --> 00:26:22.309 you my version of the pesto. So we'll take the 00:26:22.309 --> 00:26:24.990 agar agar and we'll take the freeze dried basil. 00:26:26.059 --> 00:26:28.940 And they make the, like, not all of it is bad, 00:26:29.059 --> 00:26:31.259 obviously. Like, there's some really lovely recipes 00:26:31.259 --> 00:26:33.099 in there, but there's so many examples where 00:26:33.099 --> 00:26:34.740 the stuff that they make, and I'm kind of like, 00:26:34.900 --> 00:26:37.099 I'm sorry, but if anybody else would be making 00:26:37.099 --> 00:26:39.380 this, and you had to watch a video of the shit 00:26:39.380 --> 00:26:41.759 that you just made, you would shit on it so hard. 00:26:42.140 --> 00:26:44.640 You would be like, this is the worst. You can't 00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:48.160 do it like this. And it's such a funny and bizarre 00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:51.539 dichotomy that, yeah, it's very entertaining. 00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:53.559 Another thing that comes to my mind, for example, 00:26:53.559 --> 00:26:57.180 is Tex -Mex. So I think Tex -Mex, a lot of people 00:26:57.180 --> 00:26:59.759 look at it like, you know, it's not the real 00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:02.240 Mexican food and this and that and blah, blah, 00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:04.380 blah. But at the end of the day, it's a natural 00:27:04.380 --> 00:27:07.700 thing. I mean, that land used to be Mexico and 00:27:07.700 --> 00:27:11.519 it was, it turned into America. So, and this 00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:13.640 has happened in many parts of the world. If you 00:27:13.640 --> 00:27:16.119 go to South Spain, again, you will see the influence 00:27:16.119 --> 00:27:19.779 of the Arabs. Uh, because they were there for 00:27:19.779 --> 00:27:23.299 a couple of centuries, like about eight centuries 00:27:23.299 --> 00:27:28.720 living in that land. So like, also I recently, 00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:31.420 on the other side, I saw an interview with somebody 00:27:31.420 --> 00:27:34.759 was asking some Mexicans like, uh, why are you 00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:37.500 Mexicans obsessed with cowboy culture? And they 00:27:37.500 --> 00:27:42.579 said, well, we invented it. Yeah. Something's 00:27:42.579 --> 00:27:45.819 perfectly set. Absolutely. That's really funny, 00:27:45.900 --> 00:27:47.720 actually. I never thought about it that way.