Hi, everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks,
the show where we talk food, fire, and the beautiful
chaos of kitchens, all from the cook's side of
the pass. I'm Rocky Bilbao, the eye of the tiger,
and I'm here with Ivan Draco, cold as your walk
-in fridge, sharp as your slicer. And today we're
talking conflicts between cooks, silent wars.
shouted orders, and all the spicy tension that
doesn't make it onto the menu. But first... What
would you say about emotional control in kitchens?
Does that even exist? Or are kitchens more about
emotional suppression? I think cooking is a very
emotional thing. Cooking, man. Cooking. I mean,
Hoffman was a very emotional guy. It's a weird
combination, no? It's like emotion in the kitchen.
You have so many kitchens that also we've experienced.
are so high in emotion but like so much you know
it's like something goes wrong somebody comes
at you and goes like you fucking piece of shit
you're worthless and then like five minutes later
they'll explain something to you it's like you
see how beautiful the fish is you see if you
lay it in a pan like this oh my god it's fucking
amazing it's like it's everything at like 150
all the time you know and cooking is so emotional
like food is so emotional And so is the pursuit
of perfection, which is what a lot of people
are trapped in. Ivan Bram, he did a comment in
one of our reels and he said that our reels are
starting to become like a chef gossip column.
I love that. We bring something out of a chef
and we make like a gossip shit show about it.
And this week I wanted to bring to the table
a video I saw of Xavier Pellicer. You know, Xavier
Pellicer is probably one of the best chefs in
Spain. He's a Catalan chef. He was chef at the
Racon de Canfabas. Then he opened a back and
he made two stars there. And then he returned
to Racon de Canfabas as an executive chef until
Santi Santamaria died. So, and he trained in...
in France with Jacques Maximine and some top
names of the French old school. Anyways, like
recently he was talking on a podcast and they
asked him, no, he was just saying like, you know,
like I've changed back in the days if I would
see the pastry chef throwing half an orange to
the garbage, to the bin. I would say, fuck you,
you don't have a day off this week anymore. So
he would take the day off because of that. And
then he would say, yeah, you know, but this was
back in the days. Everybody was doing it. You
know, it was the old school. Now I take the orange
and I eat it myself. And, you know, like, so
I've changed. I'm a better person now. For me,
there has always been like limits, lines that
you don't cross, one of them. I mean, in that
place, people would work there like 16 hours
a day, you know, like, and then taking the day
off just to rescue half an hour from the trash
bin. One is messing with people's spare time,
especially in a place where you have these hours.
Another one would be taking money. from people,
you know? Like, for example, there's things like,
ah, you're not getting tips anymore or like that.
Unless it's something like really established.
I work in a place, if you came late, there was
not the tip of the day. And that would be like
50 bucks a day just in tips. So nobody was ever
late, you know? And if you came late, you knew
that was the rule of the place. And the other
one is, of course, personal, you know, like curses.
Like, it's not the same saying... this food is
shit and saying you're shit but i mean like taking
spare time i think that's too much man i don't
know what are what are your thoughts about this
episode i um yeah you sent it to me um a while
ago and i thought it was very interesting because
you can see i thought the the reply from the
interviewer was very interesting and then the
shift What did the interviewer said? I don't
remember what he was saying. It was like, I'd
see him like very cocky, you know, like I'd see
him throw away half an orange. I'd take away
his, like his day off with like the subliminal
message of sort of like, I care so much about
the produce that I would punish. the person if
they disrespect the produce and then the interviewer
says to him sort of like and you you're just
saying this like so calmly like like it's the
most normal thing that you're like taking away
his day off you think that's like normal and
then he's like no i mean let me tell you because
he realizes like in what what room he is in and
those people are the most scummy the ones that
like they they start talking they realize they're
not talking to the right audience so they fake
Right. And they're like, no, I've changed. You
have to understand it was the old day. Kind of
like fucking mansplaining to her, you know, sort
of like you wouldn't understand. Actually, this
thing that seems really horrible in any scenario,
it was actually quite OK and normal. It doesn't
matter if you think that it's like you wouldn't
get it. So let me explain it to you. But at the
same time, I've changed now. Now I just eat the
orange myself. Kitchens are such a weird little
microcosm. Because now it's getting a little
bit different, but for such a long time and still
today, kitchens have been this closed off little
microcosm where you are a little bit apart from
reality. So things would happen and like rules
were in place, attitudes were in place, treatment
was in place, that if it would happen in many
other scenarios, it would be an absolute scandal.
And somehow, because you're locked away in this
windowless cellar somewhere and you're there
day in, day out, from the morning to night, it's
almost like Lord of the Flies, you know, where
the children get stranded on the island and this
weird fucking hierarchy starts forming. It's
exactly like that. And it's shocking what it
does to people. It's shocking also what it does
to people when suddenly the wrong person gets
a little bit of pseudo -authority. Crazy. Absolutely
crazy. Phil, do you recommend podcasts to your
friends? All the time. The best way of showing
friends that you care is recommending a great
podcast to listen to. I agree. If you're listening
right now, you should show your love by recommending
our show to all your best friends. It will make
them happy. It will make us happy. PopLock Food
Talks. Tell your friends. It will make the world
a better place. Yeah, and there's also this thing
in play. I know this because I worked at that
restaurant. I wouldn't say the name of the place
when we did the line episodes about it because
I didn't want to generate some bad name for the
place because at the end of the day it's a place
that I respect its cuisine and its influence
and everything. But, I mean, like, he did it,
like, normally, like, ah, yeah, I would do this,
you know, like, and another thing that I think
is that this guy was executive chef there, like,
10 years ago. This is not like, ah, it was old
school, back in the 80s, with Marco Pierre White,
and, you know, like, no, no, no, we're talking
about 2010, something like that, you know, like,
it was not so long ago. And when I was there,
we would get those kind of punishments. For me,
that's definitely too much. How much do you think
these conflicts in the kitchen are actually about
food? Or do you think it's about ego, fear, insecurities?
What do you think are the main drivers for something
like this? It's a lot about ego, I think. And
what I feel like is one of the main reasons for
these situations to happen is the loss of control.
I feel like when people... If you think of a
really good manager, right? For me, if I picture
like the perfect manager in the kitchen is a
manager who never gets loud. He's just exacting
discipline and order and teaching people just
by being super straight and calm. You know, like
sometimes you have to be stern. You have to be
direct. Sure. But punishing people like I mean,
it depends what you mean by punishment. Sometimes
like things are so bad that like you have to
say like, hey, look, man, you. You know, you're
not going to get tips today or like whatever,
because I don't like whatever. Right. I think
it's the lack of control. I think, you know,
when I look at myself, I am by no means a perfect
manager. Very, very far from it. You know, the
times when I find myself get loud is when I lose
control, when I feel like the situation is slipping
out of my hand and I can't direct it anymore
by just talking to people and like being normal.
But that's not the fault of the people necessarily.
It's my fault. You know, I think that as a manager,
you should always look at yourself. You should
always consider yourself the cause of the problem
in one way or another. Of course, you're going
to have people who make stupid mistakes and they
make and they hide things from you. And you told
them maybe a million times already. You cannot
put all the blame on those people, even though
what they're doing is wrong, because you are
failing. Like you need to find a different angle
to solve the solution. And the angle cannot be,
I'm going to give you so much shit that you break.
Maybe it's just removing that person from the
team. Calmly sit down. Because what is the point
of like getting loud? At some point, you know,
if I have a chef who repeatedly comes late, smokes
in the walk -in, steals, stealing is a big offense
now, kind of hides things that he knows he should
rectify and it causes a big problem. After a
couple of talks, like you should sit down with
that person, maybe say like, hey, I don't think
this is the place for you. Maybe you should move
on. Because at the same, also, you're sacrificing
so much of yourself. You're not doing yourself
a favor. I see so many chefs that are going like
150 miles per hour every single day. And they
kind of love it, you know? They kind of, they
make this like, they've convinced themselves
in their head that this is good, but it's not,
you know? We've somehow managed to convince ourselves
that working 12, 14, 15 hours every day without
a stop is good. It's not. There's nothing good
about it. You're going to burn out and you're
not going to do a good job. You're not going
to do a good job cooking. You're not going to
do a good job managing people. You're not going
to do a good job having a relation to front of
house or the guests because you're tired. You're
worn out. But do you think like that there are
some like high level things that can be achieved
with only eight hours a day? You know, I think.
It depends what kind of compromise you want to
make, you know, but if you say that one of the
things that is important to you is to take care
of people, then I generally don't think they
should work more than nine, 10 hours a day. And
nine to 10 hours is still a lot for a lot of
people. For me, it's like, it's an okay workday,
you know, nine hours is like very fine. And if
you say, look, I genuinely believe that I want
a team that has a good life and a good job, then.
If you come up with things that require more
than that, then you need to rethink that thing.
Or you need to hire another person if you really
want to do that thing. You know, I feel like
often we only see a couple of solutions. We see
sort of like, okay, just fucking power through.
It's kind of like, well, maybe don't power through.
Maybe if you keep having a conflict with this
person, for example, going against it again and
again and again and clashing again and again
and again is not the way forward. You see you're
not progressing. So maybe you need to take a
few steps back, detach, and rethink the whole
thing. Think like, okay, hold on a second. This
is clearly not working. And I know it's clearly
not working because I'm not getting the result
that I want. And at the same time, I am so worn
out. Like, this is only a limited amount of time
where you can keep that going, right? And ideally,
you want to keep going forever and enjoy what
you're doing. So I think that a lot of people
are sort of like, oh, no, you have to, you can
only achieve this level. It's kind of like, well,
maybe this is exactly one of those things that
we just think is like that, but that actually
we just have to think about from a different
angle. Have you ever caught someone stealing?
Oh, yeah. I mean, I caught people doing everything.
No, I caught people stealing. I've caught people
physically abusing others. I caught people stitching
other people up. I caught people extorting money
from staff. I caught people drinking at 10 o
'clock in the morning in the changing rooms.
I remember in Hong Kong, man, like there was
this one guy and he was a fucking nightmare.
And then at one point I was, and this is a good
example, actually. So there was this one guy
and he had only been working there for like a
couple of weeks. And I had taken on that job
like very, very recently in that time. And he
was not performing really well. I was getting
angry at him. I was giving him shit. I was being
very strict. I was being very stern. hey this
is shit you can't do this you can't do that and
he was like spiraling out one day he would be
like oh i'm sorry chef i'll do better and the
other day he would be like super aggressive i
was just doing my thing i would be like no bullshit
like either you either you're here or i don't
want to accept it and then one morning i like
i'm in the kitchen i'm looking for the sky and
i go into the changing room and in the changing
room usually after a certain time nobody goes
in there after you changed you in the kitchen
nobody goes back in there and i go in there and
he's kneeling in front of his locker and i'm
like hey what are you doing here and he turns
around and he's got like a liter can of beer
in his hand and he's just chugging like and i
realized like oh fuck this guy has a real problem
this guy is really like he has a he has an issue
he's an alcoholic and then it's kind of like
i like took him aside and i was like hey i felt
really stupid in that moment you know because
i feel like man i should have I should have felt
that something's wrong. But I just went like
a fucking train, no? Like a bull. I just kept
going forward and forward and forward. I realized
that this guy is actually dealing with something.
Now, I'm not his therapist, nor his kindergartner,
nor his mother. But as a human being, the least
thing that you can do is sit down with him and
be sort of like looking. Listen, obviously this
is not okay what you're doing. What can we do
to make this better? Do you need something? Do
you need some help? Can we facilitate something
for you? Obviously, you can't be hurting the
business like this and I can't let you work when
you're drunk. This is not OK. But at the same
time, like, how do we move forward from this?
And this happens a lot. You know, I've had a
lot of situations where I was so caught up in
my own head chef like mania. And I was like,
I take somebody to the office and I sit them
down and I start giving them shit. And they start
crying. And I'm like, what's happening? And then
they open up about a personal problem. And they
say somebody in their family passed away and
stuff. And you sit there and you think to yourself.
what the fuck am I doing here, you know? Like,
this is really not that important. It's really
not. And these are all people who are all dealing
with shit. Most of them are trying. Some will
not try, like, sure. But I think it's important
to get away from this mania because at the end
of the day, we're just fucking cooking food,
you know? It's not that deep. It's not life and
death. I also had one in a place that I work
that suddenly we started realizing that there
were drinks disappearing. But, you know, like,
in the middle of the morning, you know, and suddenly
we would go to the bathroom for staff. And in
the trash bins, there would be, like, four cans
of beer. Fresh. Freshly drink. You know, like,
this person would, you know, like, go to the
bathroom and drink two beers and go back to work
like nothing. And she would, like, really normal.
Was, like, a super nice to deal with person,
you know, like. But yeah, it had like this compulsive
drinking problem, you know, like, can you imagine
like at 10 a .m. you already had six beers, you
know, like you're just starting your day. Yeah,
I mean, some people need that to function normally,
you know, like, and that's the crazy thing. I
mean, when it gets to that point, then it's really,
really serious now. And you're like, wow, I had
no idea. And also still in a place where I worked,
you know, like suddenly there were these two
bartenders that were really, really good, you
know, like they were even competing in bartender
championships and everything. And they were preparing
because they were going to represent the restaurant
for this thing. And one day the head chef sees
that they were like going to like a storage room
too often. So she felt something weird. So she
went there. to this storage room, opens it, start
looking around, looks like behind something and
finds like, you know, like 20 sous vide bags
of lamp and everything, you name it. Like, so
they were having a dinner party that night and
they were just stashing everything. Crazy. And
they got immediately fired, of course. Of course.
And it was a shame because everybody liked them
and they were really talented and they fucked
up like that, you know? yeah it is a shame right
like sometimes you know you're kind of like man
some you see somebody in a difficult position
and at the same time you're like yeah but like
i cannot let you put other people in danger and
like steal money because that is money it's pure
money like you know i cannot let you do that
um because i'll also be liable for that so sometimes
it is it does get tricky yeah What about when
you have like a fucked up situation, like a personal
constant disagreement that scales up with somebody
across weeks, you know, and it's something, it
already becomes like a war, you know, like an
open war. And it's like, either you fuck me or
I fuck you. Let's see who's next. And, you know,
like sometimes those kind of dynamics build up
on some, until somebody clashes first, you know,
like snaps. Yeah. Yeah. So have you had those
ones? Yeah, unfortunately, way too much. I feel
like you have that almost everywhere, you know?
That's very interesting, right? And it's pretty
much, you know, I was recently, I had like a
course on handling conflicts and these kind of
things. And it's very interesting because, like
you say, this is extremely common in kitchens,
yet at the same time, nobody has the tools to
deal with it. Everybody's dealing it from an
absolutely ego kind of either you fuck me or
I fuck you, so I will fuck you. And the other
one seems exactly the same. And you never sit
down to actually take your pride away and reach
a consensus just to make it a win -win instead
of a lose -lose situation. Yeah, exactly. but
that never happens i've never seen it you know
like it's always like okay we hate each other
we're going to hate each other all the way through
for it right and 10 years from now we will still
hate each other oh this is my corner of the kitchen
go away yeah i think it's because of this weird
dynamic you know because you have a kitchen with
a brigade system and you have ranks right so
we're not like we're all equal but we're not
all equal you know because i'm i am a senior
cdp and you're just a cdp and it's you know and
like that really gives people um the feeling
like they get the like little senior in front
of their cdp title and they feel like now i have
some sort of authority on you and if you don't
do what i say i will come after you and it's
so fucking silly you know and As you like progress
through those ranks, you have that everywhere,
you know. You're an apprentice or a commie like
everybody. There's not really that much because
you're a commie, you know. But then when you
become a demi -chef, it starts getting tricky.
And then a CDP. And then between sous -chefs
and CDPs, ah, tricky. But, you know, like, I
mean, now it's like it's a little bit more comfortable
because I've been a head chef for so long. And
you start dealing with things differently also,
I think. Like, if you become a head chef and
you start becoming competent, you start dealing
with it differently. Because if something like
this happens, it's kind of like, what are you
trying to do? Like, there's no scenario in which
you will somehow win this conflict. Like, let's
just not have a conflict. How about that? Yeah,
but I was also saying like when they're between
the same ranks, because for me, though, those
are, those have been the more violence in my
case. You know, like you remember this guy, Max,
you know, like. Yes. The first person I thought
of actually. You know, like, and we would have
like this, this thing. And at the end of the
day, somehow the chef realized something like
this was going on and he fired him. So he was
out, you know, and that's how he solved the conflict.
Like this guy. It's becoming a problem, and he's
not a good leader, he's not a good chef, yet
he believes he is all of those things, and he's
not by far. That's what I think, because it was
really, you know, like, also you build this carcass,
you build this thick skin around you, you know,
like, and you don't allow, you know, like, the
conflict to get inside you, but, I mean, it's
not that easy, you know, like, sometimes. Ideally,
ideally you do, you know, because it's so silly.
It's really, it's really so silly, but yet we
get carried away by it so much. I mean, this
guy was a very particular example because like
the way that I remember him, he was picking a
fight with everybody. Like he didn't make friends
with anybody. He also took a lot of liberties,
you know, he wasn't like, he was still in his,
he was only there for a few months. He would
take this authority and talk about this from
this. um superiority in knowledge and also in
the way to do things i think that's very very
crazy you know like entering a a team with that
attitude and expecting it to go well it just
speaks of how dumb you actually are you know
yeah it's crazy i think that um it's a good reminder
to to stay humble you know as i remember a few
situations with him where he like came in And
I had been an apprentice there, like on the same
section for about a year, I think. And we had
to make the celery puree, which sounds very simple.
But the head chef, he had a very specific way
that he wanted it done. You make a stalk with
all the offcuts of the celery root. It had to
be very intense and clear. And then you sweat
the celery not too much with not too much fat.
You add just enough broth. You cook it with a
cartouche, like very gently. And then you may
have no dairy, basically only a little bit of
butter. And that's it. And then I remember this
guy at one point, he looked at me and he was
like, what are you doing? That's not how you
make a puree. And then he just like took it away
and started, he's like, I'm going to show you
how to make a puree. And he starts like sweating
onions and garlic and celery, like browns it,
you know. And like adds like, I remember he adds
a fuck ton of cream. And would reduce it like
a dulce de leche. Exactly. And I was like, oh
my God. Like, you know. I didn't really want
to say too much, you know, because this guy was
my chef at the party and I was like, hey, but
I was already sick of his shit. So I was like,
hey, chef actually has a very specific way that
he wants this done. And he's like, ah, he doesn't
listen to me, you know, because who the fuck
am I? I'm just an apprentice. Makes this fucking
puree, blends it, tastes it. He's like, mm, it's
amazing. And it would taste like shit. It tasted
like it was horrible. This guy would do this
kind of things and he was so proud of whatever
he did and it was just not good, you know? No.
And then like an hour later, the chef came and
he tried the puree and he freaked the fuck out.
He was like, who the fuck made this puree? He
started giving me shit and I was like, well,
here we fucking go, you know? And the guy, but
then that's also a sign of character, you know?
He didn't say anything. He wasn't like, chef,
I'm sorry, it was me. I wanted to make it like
this. I'm sorry I didn't realize my bad, you
know. You just let me take the shit. He saw you
taking shit and he kept quiet. You know, I also
remember once, you know, like that the chef gave
me a lot of shit and I was like really, you know,
like in that moment of what did just happen here,
you know, like and I would look at him and he
would be laughing like. You don't know, I was
like, wow. Oh, really? Yeah. Jesus. Yeah, he
was really toxic. He was really, really toxic.
I was very happy when he got fired. Hey Phil,
have you subscribed to our newsletter yet? We
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Erik? Every month we share one cool thing from
the world of food and restaurants and occasionally
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Subscribe to our newsletter where we unveil all
of Phil's grandmother's secrets. This idea that
a recipe, the more you do, is better. You know,
you can do a killer celery puree by just taking
puree, water, and butter, and salt. These four
ingredients, and you can make an insanely good
celery puree. Absolutely. You know, like you
just mandoline it, cook it just until it's puree
consistency. Not more than that. A little bit
of salt, a little bit of butter, maybe just a
little bit of the water you added to cook it
with, to sweat it. And that's an amazing celery
puree. You know, you don't need to do much. And
I'm saying this because recently I found the
recipe of the mushrooms of tamburil. And I actually
replicated and it came out exactly like the way
you get it in the bar. Nice. Something so stupidly
simple that it feels like a cheat code. You know,
like I couldn't believe what it was, you know,
like basically like 99 % of Basque recipes, you
start with some sliced garlic that you throw
to olive oil, right? Like, and a little bit of
dry chili, right? In this case, you would throw
like some parsley stems, right? Like three fingers
of water, salt. You throw the mushrooms inside,
you put a lid on it, and you leave it for 10
minutes. That's it. That's crazy. You know, when
somebody told me about that dish for the first
time, I was like, that sounds shit. That sounds
horrible. You know, champignon mushrooms boiled
in water. And then you eat it on a soggy piece
of bread. I was like, that does not sound good.
And then I ate it for the first time and I was
like, Jesus fucking Christ, that is so tasty.
That is such an amazing dish. Yeah, I think like
what you're saying is totally true. I think it's
a sign of experience and maturity of craft if
you do less. There was this really nice cooking
show on Netflix, Culinary Class Wars. Everybody's
talking about it. Second season has come out
fairly recently. And there's one contestant in
there. I highly recommend you to watch it. It's
really cool. All the contestants are like really,
really good chefs. There's one contestant in
the second season who is a master of temple food.
She's like this nun, 70 years old. And she cooks
in a way like she doesn't care. She doesn't give
a shit about what anybody else thinks or any
trends. She only cooks vegetables. And she's
like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that.
no care in the world right but she cooks in such
a beautiful way so simple and like i remember
just like one thing where she's like julienning
carrots and she's like i'm going to cook the
carrots without any seasoning for this because
i want the natural sweetness of the carrot to
really come out and she's like cooking and the
judges were eating like different dishes from
like michelin star chefs and blah and they're
eating it and they're like oh wow this is really
nice you know And I thought it was like such
a beautiful, she had such beautiful moments in
that show because this is something that I realized
first time I went to Japan also. The first like
two weeks I was like, man, everything's under
seasoned. And then after a while you start realizing
the like deep flavor of ingredients, the natural
flavor and not just salt and acid and this, which
is also nice, you know, but everything in balance.
Especially, I think, especially in German cuisine,
like German fine dining, you know, Germans will
be like, yeah, let's add some cream and some
white wine and some vinegar and some butter and
some black pepper and, you know, like, and all
of that for whatever, you know, like, and it's
like, sometimes you cannot just salt and water
and get something really, really nice, you know?
Absolutely. I had this one dish in Italy one
time that blew my mind. I'm not a big fan of
zucchinis in general, right? Sometimes I like
them. Sometimes I don't too much. They're kind
of like whatever, you know, eggies. And I ate
a dish in Italy one time and it was super nice.
And it was just like big chunks of zucchini quickly
boiled in very heavily salted water. Just throw
them in, boil, take them out, put them on a plate,
let them steam off a little bit. And then little
squeeze of lemon juice and a bit of Parmesan
on top. And it was the... best zucchini the texture
and like the juiciness and man it was amazing
um and that like these things make me realize
how deep cooking is you know and how we as people
we like over complicate what ingredients are
and what you have to do to them to make them
shine so hi everyone This is our favorite section.
Go fact yourself. You should peel ginger. And
I've heard from someone that actually all the
nutrients and the good stuff is in the skin.
So then when microplaning a ginger, It's better
if you do it with the skin. I would say you don't
have to. I very often don't. And I 100 % believe
that the skin, just like in apples or other vegetables,
contains a ton of nutrients and fiber. And especially
with younger ginger, for sure, just use it. With
older ginger, when it gets really woody, maybe
peel it. But in general, I don't think that you
have to at all. Yeah, actually, you know, as
long as it's clean and does not have like strange,
whatever, dirt or whatever. If that's the case,
I will take it off and I would, you know, grate
it with the skin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually,
I just Googled it and Fuxia Dunlop, Fuxia Dunlop,
Chinese cooking expert, says, for maximum flavor,
do not peel. So there you go. There you go. Bam.
Bam. Go fact yourself. Go fact yourself.