Hi, everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks,
the show where we talk food, fire, and the beautiful
chaos of kitchens, all from the cook's side of
the pass. I'm Eric B., not the one with the gold
chains, and I'm here with Phil Rakim, not the
one with the golden metrics. Today, we're talking
scraps, but definitely not the sad kind you clean
off the floor. We're joined by Douglas McMaster,
chef, author, and zero -waste trailblazer who's
been turning compost into cuisine and broken
glass into dinnerware since before it was cool.
We're talking next level, no bean, closed -loop
culinary wizardry. But first... Just as a first
question, there's been a lot of discussion in
our social media channels about zero waste, what's
zero waste, what's the real thing, what's not.
And we've always mentioned you as an example
of it. So maybe I wanted to start with how did
this all start? Because as a first impression,
I would say that if somebody would tell me, yes,
I'm going to open a restaurant with no trash
bins and where nothing is wasted and everything
is reutilized. I think I would say that's impossible.
And I think one of the main quotes that have
transcended from your philosophy is that that's
a failure of imagination, like thinking like
that. And that was really like mindset shifting
for me and I guess for a lot of people in the
industry. So where did it all start for you?
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, well, I appreciate that
that landed and the work resonates. It is possible,
though highly improbable, to be zero waste, to
not have a bin. But before maybe I answer that,
I think to do something a bit different, to...
describe in my worldview what is zero waste and
before that what is sustainability because these
are words that we hear battered around a lot
and I don't think not necessarily everybody has
given it a deep amount of thought and I think
it's really took me a long time to simplify it
but in a single word sustainability would be
the word balance and so if you imagine an environment
in which we are sustaining an environment, that
we are taking resources from the environment,
whether that's food or materials that we need
to provide a system, such as a restaurant. And
if we are taking faster than we're regenerating
into that system, whether that's a farm or the
materials, then that is out of balance and that
is not sustainable. So sustainability is... a
relationship with our environment uh that is
uh in in in harmony in balance um so that's what
sustainability is balance and you could look
at that or extrapolate that through any different
system um and side note uh we're talking about
environmental sustainability you know you can
talk about economic sustainability and that's
a different metric and then zero waste is a fascinating
uh you already called it a philosophy which i
do appreciate because it is a philosophy is a
world view and my world view through the lens
of zero waste is that uh on this planet of which
we have finite resources um we need to find balance
we need to find this sustainability otherwise
you know there is no future for my son for for
you know um for our future generations and so
it's important Now, zero waste is sustainability.
It's a different lens in which we look at our
relationship with our environment. We like to,
in very literal terms, define that as not having
a bin, specifically a general waste bin. A compost
bin is arguably a circular bin. That food waste
will go back to become food for the soil, which
will grow food. And so that's not a bad bin.
That's a good bin. Recycling, you know, there
are really good recyclable materials that are
circular. Again, not a bad bin. It's a pretty
good bin. It at least shows our intention to
make things circular. Now, the general waste
bin, that's the bad bin. That's the naughty,
sleazy, dirty coffin from which... These badly
designed materials that feed our lazy behavior
on this earth go to die. And so that's the problem
bin. That's the bin that's not good. That's the
bin that nature does not appreciate. And so that's
the bit that makes Silo unique, a restaurant
that respects its environment and its resources.
So hopefully that lays some... good groundwork
for the conversation ahead i think it's important
just to to simply understand what sustainability
means and the lens of zero waste so but the to
answer your question um there was an artist in
australia um who said to me imagine a world without
waste and i was 23 my dad was an artist i love
all things abstract and art and thinking differently
and it's just it's just part of who i am um and
i was really really down and out in sydney at
the time i was you know, wanting to tap out of
hospitality. I was just in this awful cycle,
destructive cycle, all the things we, the dark
side of hospitality that we associate with. And
yeah, it was just this artist that proposed this
profound intention to not have waste in this
world. And he was coming from a more, well, environmental
and agricultural point of view and an architectural
point of view. And as a young chef that had been
working in the world's best restaurants, I was
all around the world because I was really, really
bad at school. I'm a school dropout, never diagnosed,
but neurodivergent and didn't like academia.
And so kitchens were amazing. places for for
me to be in to express myself and i did quite
well and worked in some great restaurants but
you know what it's like the industry is a a really
challenging place certainly it was 20 years ago
and then yeah i was just sort of i don't know
just looking i wasn't looking for the light but
as soon as the light appeared i was i was like
right this is this path is what i'm going to
follow for the rest of my life and i felt it
in that intention, in that intention just simply
to not have a bin. I was like, this is what I'm
going to spend the rest of my life doing. And
it was just crystal clear from that moment. In
case you're wondering, the name of the artist
is Just Packer. He's a Dutch -born designer and
zero -waste pioneer. And Phil. Go ahead. You
have the word. Yeah, that's super interesting
to hear because I was actually, it's actually
something I wanted to ask you about is kind of
like, well, from a point where you decide, oh,
I want to, I want to work in food. I want to,
I want to do, you know, I want to cook for a
living. So how you get to the point where you
sort of like, because we all have different things
that kind of like spark our interest, you know,
that was sort of like, okay, this aspect of a
certain topic or a certain craft is what really
kind of like fulfills me and interests me. how
you arrive at that point where you sort of, where
you have, like you say, this aha moment where
you're like, okay, now I see the light. This
is really what I can really like deeply relate
to inside of this field. You know, going from
that, from after meeting Joost and having this
spark, this kind of idea and this sort of beginning
of a direction maybe, like how did you proceed
from there? Like what were the first steps and
like how did you basically like sow the seed
of what? in the end would become Silo and everything
that followed. I just want to point out that
I didn't know anything special. I'd worked in
some good restaurants, but I hadn't been raised
in an environmental family. My mum and dad were
certainly not foodies. And I didn't even know
what the word sustainability meant. Yeah, I didn't
really know what to do with this feeling. And
that's largely what it was. It was this feeling.
And perhaps if there was ever some advice in
this sort of moment, it would be, you know, I
feel privileged. I genuinely, genuinely feel
privileged to have had that light appear, to
have found that thing that, you know, makes me,
makes every cell in my body like wake to attention.
feel so much energy when focusing on this project
i do feel blessed we all you know as you pointed
out phil are in this industry for different reasons
and i would just say like follow that feeling
you know and it is a feeling like whether it's
pastry whether it's technique whether it's leadership
wine hospitality whatever it is just like really
be sensitive to your own feelings within the
hospitality space and just follow that and just
keep refining that and question everything and
you know you'll you'll start seeing things differently
and that's where you find a project you know
a unique it not everyone has to innovate but
you'll you'll find what you're looking for if
you follow that feeling But no, it began with
a pop -up. I was trying to do something with
this energy, I felt, and I did a pop -up called
Wasted. Now, this was in 2010. A lot of people
in the industry know the Wasted pop -up as the
Dan Barber pop -up in Selfridges in London. But
before that came a very small pop -up in Sydney
in 2010 or 11, I can't remember. long time ago.
And at that time, the knowledge wasn't as deep
as it is now for what sustainability and zero
waste really mean. So at the time, it was that
kind of surface level interpretation of what
if I could turn all of the scraps that the restaurant
I work for currently is throwing away into a
dinner that is better than the restaurant I'm
currently working in. I'm not going to name the
restaurant, but it was one of the world's best
restaurants and it created like 70 % waste, meaning
that 30 % of what they were purchasing, what
was coming from nature was being maximized. Most
fine dining restaurants are like 40, 50, you
know, more casual restaurants are like 60, maybe
70, if it's really resourceful. But this restaurant
was horrendous. It was like 30 % food going on
the plate. And I just. I actually stood on a
section, and I'm not exaggerating here, where
there was me and two or three other chefs. I
stood over two or three bins, one per person,
and it was just this black void in which we plucked
every single lettuce from a gorgeous two -foot
biodynamic cost lettuce from this biodynamic
farm in the Blue Mountains in Sydney. And every
single leaf went straight down into this dark
tunnel, into this grave. And we would pick. hundreds
of these like lettuces straight into the bin
and we were trying to acquire the core the the
lettuce core and there was a main course with
three lettuce cores on the main course dish but
to achieve that we would throw every single one
thousands of these leaves every day into a bin
thousands and then we would throw these black
bins into a skip and it was horrible That was
the kind of waste that I was witnessing in that
time. And yeah, I did a dinner called Wasted.
It's called Ten Bukali. It's a cafe in Sydney.
And yeah, it was just three nights in which every
ingredient was surplus, which isn't what zero
waste is. Zero waste is a system that doesn't
have waste. That was a specific expression of
zero waste that uses just the surplus. And it's
just a misconception. Often people think that
zero waste is where you use scraps and you do,
but you also use all of the primary cuts as well.
And that's the holistic nature of silo as a restaurant.
And that's really important point. You know,
we don't just use scraps. So that's how it started,
a pop -up called Wasted, just to see if I could
produce a menu that was as good as this world
-class restaurant that I was working. from using
just their scraps can i make it as good as i
probably wasn't as good as you know i'm a good
chef but not that good i thankfully have worked
with chefs that are that good that have realized
that dream but um but yeah that's how it started
and then uh me and this guy yoast um it's a difficult
name to pronounce j -o -o -s -t if you spell
it yoast pronounce it with a y Um, but yeah,
so me and Yo started Silo in Melbourne. This
was after the pop -up when I'd got his attention
and he knew I could cook. Um, we then opened
Silo as a, as a, as a kind of concept cafe in
Melbourne in 2012. So yeah, that's how it started.
I was reviewing your book these last days and
there's a part where you talk about that. And
I think this is interesting for our audience
that are mainly young chefs, that you talk about
your beginnings, that you traveled all over the
world, that you wanted to take a little bit of
the philosophies of different chefs. What can
you share about that period? Yeah, well, it started
at St. John. That's a great question. And, you
know, I think as you go through your career.
Knowing, you know, we talked about how things
make you feel like subject, but then it's also
like people. I was so lucky to have great mentors.
I worked at St. John and that was a very significant
establishment for me because lots of things.
It's really good at teaching chefs how to cook.
You know, you can't hide behind sous vide bags
or, you know, a big line of chefs working like
a factory. It was not like that. It was you're
on a section with two people or there's maybe
four chefs in total cooking for 120 people. But
it's considered a world -leading restaurant.
And so, yeah, you'd really have to know how to
cook. Both Fergus as a sort of the leader of
that project, but then James, who then went on
to do Lyle's, was my head chef at the time. He
was an amazing... And then we had Justin Galatly,
the pastry chef. I was on pastry with him and
an incredible team at that time. And Lee Tiernan
from Black Axe Mangal, all great mentors all
at once. So that's where it began, this kind
of awakening. And when I say awakening, what
I mean is before that, I was asleep in the industry
where I was doing classic French food that just...
didn't make me feel anything. I just, no disrespect
to classic French food, I love it. But the kitchens
I was working in just didn't do anything to sort
of move me. And then I worked at St. John and
then everything started to ignite. And, you know,
the passions for so many different aspects of
hospitality began at St. John. And I just remember
the feeling of excitement and thinking, oh my
God, like St. John is such a thoughtful, and
I'm going to use the word abstraction, because
from the rest of the industry at that time, it
was an abstraction, you know, to open the St.
John cookbook and see, I don't know, like brains
and squirrel and, you know, awful and this kind
of like ugly, pretty. I don't want to call it
ugly food because, you know, it's in the eye
of the beholder. It is beautiful with the right
person viewing it. But I thought it was ugly
at the time. And then it just shifted my perception
of what good food is, what good hospitality is,
what good people are. You know, there's some
good people there. And I hadn't witnessed that
in kitchens at that point. And so, yes, St. John
just set me on this path of thinking, oh, my
God, what else is there in this industry that...
is another abstraction. And so I'd sent my CV
to NOMA. That was the next place. I've got a
long relationship with the team at NOMA. I staged
at the first ever NOMA and then have done lots
of different events with them, including the
Mad Academy, worked with a lot of their team.
And of course, NOMA needs no introduction. The
way in which they were... organizing and preparing
food and thinking about food was significantly
unique and that again just changed my perception
again and then i just started having this feeling
like what if i could keep glimpsing through the
eyes of these innovators what would that move
in me and then i went to um i went to stage of
the fat duck um Did a lot of stages, a lot, a
lot of stages. And then found my way to Australia
and found this particular kitchen that I'd already
introduced that I shouldn't name. But it was
everything wrong in the industry. It was, it
was literally everything you could, you could
say now is, you know, aspects of the industry
that we are not proud of and we deplore was kind
of just. proudly presented it was gross it was
really not a good kitchen and and that sometimes
is important to to feel too it's like that feeling
of like disgust let that guide you to who you
become to the leader you become to the restaurant
you create you know like that what disgusted
me the bullying the violence the pretentiousness
the ego It was like, right, if I ever open a
restaurant, which became Silo, everything that
that was, it will not be. And so that was as
significant an inspiration as all of the good
stuff, you know? So, yeah, so that was my idea
that I was just going to get these glimpses of
different unique perceptions of the industry,
of food, of hospitality. And I think it definitely
helped move the way. I was able to innovate,
and I think Silo has innovated enormously. I'm
very, very proud of that. And so, yeah, I don't
know. Maybe not everyone will resonate with that,
but that's certainly what worked for me. Yeah,
I think that's really relatable. I think a lot
of chefs have that sort of process where... They,
and I certainly did, you know, I remember when
I started very similarly and was lucky to work
in a really good kitchen where there was a real
sort of soulful approach to cooking with, you
know, an organic garden outside of the city and
a very direct relation to good produce and obviously
not, you know, zero waste cooking. But, you know,
there was, because we were growing a lot of the
produce, there was a lot more consciousness about
preserving and not wasting so much. There was
a lot of appreciation. And I had a very similar
experience where I went very early on at a very
young age, got into this very famous big restaurant
in Spain that I had put on this massive pedestal.
And then when I arrived there, it was a harsh
realization, a bucket of cold water. And I remember
like after like half a year of being there, I
looked around and I was like, this is just not
where I want to go. And then you sort of change
trajectory. So I think it's very relatable for
sure. But then, so after having the cafe in Sydney,
then was that the point where you crowdfunded
and moved the whole idea to London? When you're
from England and living in Australia and you
have a family crisis, it's not ideal. And I was
flying, you know, 26 -hour journeys back to England
to be with my family. And it just became... to
the point of, like, I need to move back to the
UK for family reasons. So, yeah, I left Yoast
and this journey and wanted to open Silo in East
London, of course. I just couldn't. I was 26
and talking about prophecies and, you know, zero
-waste systems and, you know, people didn't even
talk about sustainability in 2012. Like, Silo
opened in... Brighton in 2014 and nobody was
talking about these things, I genuinely started
to feel like I'd gone mad because I was so sure
that this was the future. But for years, it just,
you know, they say that two things can happen
to a trend. One is that they fall off a cliff
and the other is that they become the status
quo. And I was so sure that zero waste and sustainability
were going to be the status quo and that I was
on the right path. But for years, it just wasn't.
And I thought, oh, my God, this is falling off
a cliff. Everything I'm doing and saying, it's
just nobody is listening. And it was like that
for years and years. We got a lot of press, but
that doesn't mean that it's something that's
accepted. You know, that just means it's different.
Press feeds on difference. And Silo was different,
very different. And so we got a lot of press.
But that didn't mean that people were listening.
And then there was an episode of Blue Planet
that changed everything, I think. Because we
were a dying restaurant in Brighton. And then
Blue Planet revealed this episode of plastic
pollution in the ocean. And I didn't actually
see it. But all of a sudden, our business went
from dying to thriving, and we couldn't figure
out why. It was just a very ordinary month with
no particular waves of tourism. Brighton's a
touristy city. got so much busier all of a sudden
and we never know for sure that it was blue planet
but it just went like that and all of a sudden
we were i wouldn't say busy but we were busier
we were sustainably busy and uh and yeah that
was a significant moment in which The movement,
which I think it's safe to say now, sustainability
and zero waste is a movement. That was the moment
where it shifted significantly. And there's been
other markers in the last 11 years. But that
was the first significant marker in which there
was a positive shift in the right direction.
Phil, do you recommend podcasts to your friends?
All the time. The best way of showing friends
that you care is recommending a great podcast
to listen to. I agree. If you're listening right
now, you should show your love by recommending
or show to all your best friends. It will make
them happy. It will make us happy. PopLock Food
Talks. Tell your friends. It will make the world
a better place. I think sustainability in zero
waste is a movement, but it's also a trend. And
I would say it's also something that everybody
wants to Talk the talk, but not everybody wants
to go through the walk. And you see that in companies,
that's where greenwashing comes from and all
these things that everybody wants to say, yes,
I want the sustainability certificate. But at
the moment when you have to, I don't know, recycle.
plastic containers that are not pretty, and then
that's not so sexy anymore. I wanted to briefly
mention about your book. I was reviewing it this
last day. It's a very interesting book because,
as you mentioned in the intro, it's not a cookbook.
It's more like, I would say, like a handbook,
like a philosophy book. It's very interesting,
and for me, the perception it gives me about
Silo now that it's, I like to call it a finished...
project is that I would describe it as a very
long innovation experiment. As with any innovation
experiment, there's a lot of things that go wrong.
And you mention a lot of these things in the
book. What would you say, what can you share
about the experiments that went wrong and what
did you learn from them? That's a great question.
And I can safely say that there's been more mistakes
than there has been success. There is a phrase
in agriculture called a land race. Now, a land
race is a really... clever idea in which a farmer,
he or she could take 100 new seed varieties and
throw 100 different seeds down into an environment,
into a terroir, and just watch over the next
year or two years to see which of those varieties
out -competed the other varieties. And so...
After that year, the farmer may say, these are
the three varieties that are thriving in this
ecosystem. Silo has been the same process. This
is just an analogy. I never thought this at the
beginning. If I had thought this at the beginning,
I wouldn't have pursued this project because
the weight, the heartache, the challenges, the
turbulence of this creative... tempest is heavy
it weighs heavy and it just takes a certain obsessive
crazed person to pursue through that pain and
there has been an enormous amount of pain with
that amount of failure but to the land race the
analogy um you have to throw down so many different
seeds in that environment Because that environment
was unknown. And that's what a farmer's trying
to understand is the unknown environment, what
is going to thrive. And when Silo started, it
was this entirely new food system in which everything
was different. Nothing was familiar. Every single
ingredient. was a whole product from a farm so
there's no butter there is no yogurt there was
no creme fraiche there was no anything that was
pre -processed and so That, when you extrapolate
that through every part of a restaurant, a kitchen,
it changes everything, the dynamics of everything.
Because when you start milling flour, you realize
you've got bran and you can't waste the bran,
so you have to design the bran in. And then you've
got buttermilk, lots and lots and lots of buttermilk
because you're churning all this butter because
we love to use butter. And that means there's
bathtubs of butter every single day. What do
you do with all of that? And so this entire...
system is completely different to any restaurant
i'd ever worked in or seen and so everything
was different and you know with buttermilk is
a great example because there has been hundreds
of different processes that have resulted in
maybe five brilliant products. That took years
of testing and researching and going deeper and
deeper into the science of different proteins.
Eventually, we found the right solutions, which
is like the farmer throwing the different land
-raised seeds. You eventually select. the ones
that float to the top within the environment.
That has been the course. It sounds kind of poetic
and nice, but it was so far from nice. It was
traumatizing at times to survive economically,
to stay buoyant and keep trying to figure out
what the cream of the crop actually is. Yeah,
I mean, you know, I can imagine that starting
a restaurant with that idea in mind and following
that feeling that you were describing, you know,
a restaurant and like the way a kitchen functions
is this sort of system that's very sort of similarly
replicated around the world, you know, and it's
kind of, I think it's very interesting, this
idea of having a system that we all know and
we're all used to and that we maybe don't question
so much to then say, okay, let me reimagine the
system in a way where I can, you know, maybe
get rid of things that i just don't agree with
like what would you say were the like main pillars
you know you talk about not having a bin you
know i mean that is a that is a very simple kind
of pillar that you'll sort of establish but then
you know that involves a lot of different processes
like you say you know okay if i have if i mill
flour i have the brand and just keeps going it
just keeps cascading down you know what would
you say were the sort of like main pillars when
you when you started this project that you said
all right that's that's what i want to tackle
first i might subvert this question a tiny bit
just to say there are pillars that i've recognized
as essential to um to forging a new system a
new innovation significantly imagination creativity
is a fundamental pillar in this in this architecture
there is a an observation of um psychology is
significant because if you don't understand psychology
How can you present a new thing, a new innovation,
a new system, something that people are not familiar
with? How can you present that to them without
understanding their reaction, which is a psychology?
And so I've learned so much about psychology
in the 11 years of Silo. And it is fundamentally
the thing that I now consider my value. as that
understanding. It's like, now if I open a restaurant,
the first thing I think about is the psychology.
And that is just not something to be sniffed
at. So to give you an example, waste is ugly.
Waste is smelly. Waste is not attractive. How
do you attract people to come into a restaurant
that has an association with a negative aspect?
That is something you have to think about psychologically.
You start to unpack it and then realize, okay,
well, people like attractive things. And so you
then make everything attractive or delicious
or smell good or you present it. You tap into
the psyche and you make people excited or turned
on in one way or another. And the way I've attempted
that through Silo's heritage is creativity. Waste
is best approached with creativity. You know,
so creative industries love silo or let's just
strip it back. Creative people love silo because
it's just endlessly, you know, it is the bounty
is endless. there is so much waste in the world
that has this basically free there's a free resource
a free material that you could just spend the
rest of your life just being creative with you
know there's just waste everywhere in the world
and that uh you know understanding is just this
business saving skill uh that that i've had to
acquire to survive And understanding the psychology
of the team. I was an awful leader, awful, awful
leader at the beginning. And then you start to
become self -aware and you start to understand
things through different eyes. So psychology
was a very significant pillar in the architecture
of Silo. And understanding from a very different
point of view, what are we doing? And why are
we doing it? Like, what is this? And just being
really clear, our mission on a practical level
is to avoid a general waste bin, but to do it
in a way that is delicious and sexy and exciting
and constantly innovative. But then ultimately,
what is beyond that? Why are we not having a
bin? What does it mean to not have a bin? And
ultimately, the path goes... deep and long but
you find yourself in nature because ultimately
that is what zero waste is zero waste is nature
and so what i mean by that is that there is no
bin in the jungle that's very interesting like
the psychology aspect it brings me to memory
like Before I went to Japan for the first time,
people would tell me, there are no bins in Japan,
there are no trash bins. And I, how there are
no trash bins? No, no, there are no trash bins
in the street. And I was like, that's impossible.
And I remember going there and in fact, there
is just like, maybe in the outsides of the subway
station and you see everybody using that individual
bin, everybody taking their own trash and taking
it with them. And that's already ingrained, like
hardwired into their culture. That's the way
it works there. That's the way it is. And I think,
like, also with, for example, with the way we
eat, for example, the sugar consumption, that
is something that is everywhere, or these kind
of things that you have to first understand the
system and then find a way to hack it somewhat,
to go around it and change your mindset. And
maybe the most difficult thing is about... communicating
it, letting others know what you just did or
what's actually going on. I had a last question,
then we want to go to... to our section of a
section where we challenge a peculiar myth with
you. Every time people talk about zero waste
with us, we always mention you and Matt Orlando
for us. These are like references to watch. If
you had to name three others that are maybe lesser
known, it can be in the food industry or outside.
What are your recommended reads or artists or
chefs or whatever? Well, there's some great people.
doing some great work in the industry um george
and laura at sem sem is in lisbon so they both
worked at silo so i'm obviously biased but um
what i love about george at sem is that he was
adamant that he wasn't just gonna do silo food
you know a different slightly different version
of silo food because When they opened SEM, their
intention was a very similar intention, you know,
to not destroy the environment, to build a restaurant
that is very sensitive to the hand that feeds
it. But then from a kind of an aesthetic or creative
point of view, he was determined to forge his
own unique kind of style of cooking. And I loved
that about him, that he didn't want to just...
you know, recycle silo food. And so he's gone
down the very long path. When anyone forges their
own, you know, unique cuisine, it takes a long,
long time, long time. You know, most chefs find
success with doing very similar dishes to the
ones they've done in their respective kitchens.
But to create an entirely new style of cooking
is a long, winding road. But he's... one of these
incredible crazed individuals that is on that
path and you know he's definitely one to watch
and in terms of integrity i can't speak more
highly about anyone than than george and laura
sem in terms of integrity within this space and
you know we've mentioned matt but matt is one
of my dearest friends in the industry um there's
there's no one matt is the king for sure Actually,
I would have another final question. If you're
not pressed for time, Douglas, I once read a
really interesting book about permaculture. It's
called Earth Care Manual. And it was purely,
you know, it was very like horticultural and
agricultural, but there were aspects in it that
I found very interesting. I sort of thought were
maybe interesting to reflect on talking about
sustainability in restaurants. And one aspect
that I found very interesting where there's sort
of like there were a couple of diagrams showcasing
different garden setups, very like homestead
kind of diagrams. And one part of it was the
human interference needed, saying that sort of
like less human, like the less human interference
needed, the more sustainable. right and i i thought
that like wow that's really interesting because
you know you see all these kitchens that you
know they say they're sustainable they have a
garden they you know get a green star slapped
on them but there's you know 25 30 stagia is
working 15 hours a day and i always thought that
that was a really like this discrepancy between
the two the outer sort of like image and what's
going on inside and then also you know obviously
waste but i thought that this human aspect of
the sustainability aspect of a restaurant was
really interesting is that something that like
you know like resonates with you that you thought
about or something that you kind of approached
in silo in a different way thinking about the
sustainability of a restaurant it's a great question
um uh i was A terrible leader at the beginning
and had this, you know, I'm from a working class
background and I work hard and, you know, life's
hard sort of mindset, you know, and worked in
horrendous, horrendous, horrendous kitchens with
so much negative energy and violence. And that
was what I believed had to be done to change
the world. And that was the kind of the words
that I slapped on. as an excuse to being very
strict and working long hours. The human sustainability
scales of balance were like this, were way out
of line. But I was like, well, this is how you
move the industry forward. This is how we need
to work. We need to work harder. And it was this
mindset that I was sure was the case. But then...
a bunch of people called bullshit along the way.
And most notably, the current Silo's sort of
executive chef, Will Stoyle. So Will had only
worked in Le Manoir and Helen de Rose. So he
was as, you know, higher pedigree as any chef
you could imagine in terms of that kind of environment,
you know, high standards, long hours, high stakes,
high pressure. And of all the people that I wouldn't
have expected to drive this forward, it would
have been Will. And Will has doggedly proved
to me and to everybody that we can all work sustainably
in terms of hours and pay and well -being. He
has been the innovator for human sustainability,
and he was leading Silo for the last... uh four
years um he became head chef after a year and
then we had another head chef so he became exec
chef and so will was the one that i want to credit
um because i didn't see it i didn't see that
we could do it i just didn't think about it you
know we all have we all bring different things
to the table you know i'm i'm a i'm a very flawed
individual and i can only see i see some some
good ideas and some unique sort of visions of
the future but then i can't see a lot of other
stuff and i need people to to see it for me and
will has done a magnificent job of finding balance
and an equilibrium and i think just more interestingly
to extrapolate the challenges because there's
people watching this podcast i'm thinking well
you know what gives because If I'm spending all
this time doing the right thing and upcycling
scraps, that takes time. Whether it's making
a miso from potato skins or making a buttermilk
garum or whatever it is that it would have been
quicker to throw away. Those labor costs are
going up. How do I then afford to pay them more
to do less when they're needing to do more to
fulfill this kind of environmental piece? you
know, where in this economic structure do you
find equilibrium? Like it doesn't, right? And
so that's the challenging reverse architecture
that we need to design. And that is a very challenging
piece because, and another thing I want to say,
this is important. People speak to me as if like,
because Silo doesn't have a bin, that that's...
bad reflection on them who do have a bin. Now,
I just want to state that I don't expect anyone
else to do what we do. In fact, I implore you
not to because the struggle and the stress and
the toll it will pay on you is so severe that
I don't wish it on anyone. What I've gone through,
the suffering, has been so great that I would
not ask anyone or suggest that of anyone. And
this industry is so hard. We all know how narrow
these margins are. It's just such a difficult
industry just to survive in economically, right?
And to then just slap on all this pressure from
an environmental doctrine, no judgment from me,
none at all. It is hard, really hard. And so
I just want to point that out because, you know,
it's a, yeah. But yeah, to try to go back to
this kind of balance within the economic structure,
it's very, very difficult. And the way we managed,
you strip away choice, but then that's a difficult
one. You strip away, you know, we went to tasting
menu only, which made things a lot better, but
then ultimately it has its challenges. And you
reduce the amount going on the plate. You know,
there are all these ways of tinkering with the
system to try and find this sort of harmony.
You know, if you're spending all this extra time
turning pumpkin skins into marmalade, then what
are you taking away from the system? Something
else that you were buying in that cost money,
right? You bought in some caviar and you're making
a caviar sauce and you're... You're saving the
money on the caviar. You're introducing a surplus
ingredient that has a high level of innovation,
is as delicious as caviar. And side note, there
are hundreds, not dozens, hundreds of things
that are more delicious than caviar made from
scraps. That is a fact. And yeah, and so you
replace the caviar with a surplus thing and you
might say, oh, well, your guests are going to
feel shortchanged. You're like, no, no, no, I
can guarantee this. The psychology of a guest
receiving something innovative, delicious, brilliant,
it will absolutely make that guest feel equally
or greater the level of joy than that caviar.
Hey Phil, have you subscribed to our newsletter
yet? We have a newsletter? What's a newsletter
about, Eric? Every month we share one cool thing
from the world of food and restaurants and occasionally
a recipe we swore we'd never share. Like your
secret boiled egg lemon tart recipe. But Eric,
that was my grandma's secret recipe. Not anymore.
Subscribe to our newsletter where we unveil all
of Phil's grandmother's secrets. I remember one
of the last restaurants I was working with, I
was discussing with the team to introduce a dish
where we would serve, inspired by Silo, like
a broccoli stem. And I remember that that was,
on one side, something that it tells a story
in itself. It's like you see it and you understand
something. Yet at the same time, the decision
was... not to do it because nobody would get
it. And even people, guests would go mad if you
put them like a broccoli stand. What are you
doing? You know, like, and at the end it was,
it was too risky. So we didn't went that way.
That's again, what I'm talking about that everybody
wants to say zero waste and sustainable, but
not everybody is willing to actually. do it.
But I wanted to ask you about, you already mentioned
some of the people in your team and how you interact
with each other. But what about the creative
process, creating these dishes? How was that
at Silo? How would you operate on that matter?
It's a great question, Eric, and I'm glad you
asked it. And just before I answer it, I want
to go back to your broccoli stem. Everything
is about how you present it. It's like if you're
going to chat someone up at a bar, right? It's
not what you say, it's how you say it. It's the
conviction, it's the body language, it's the
eyes, it's the way. This is the psychology of
all of this coming out again. So if you go to
a table, you know, with a kind of... hunchback
and you're kind of nervous and you're stammering.
The guest is already mistrusting the quality
because this is just the nature of how we perceive
a lack of confidence or a lack of conviction.
And so if you, with a broccoli stem, walk to
the table, the meticulously prepared broccoli
stem that is itself a work of art, clearly, And
you put it down with confidence and you say with
a big sort of big puffed chest, eye contact and
say, this is an innovation that blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah. And you really lean into that. Then
all of a sudden the guests, and I can guarantee
this, will be mesmerized. Mesmerized. They'll
be like, this is a piece of art. And it's just
how you do it. Again, it's not about caviar or
broccoli stem. It's how you present it. And that,
I hope that stays with you and anyone listening
because that's really true. And I can really
guarantee that. And regarding the theme, the
creative process dynamics of it. The creative
process is a reverse engineering. It's like from
the very, very, very. beginning and so silo is
this incredible back to front system you know
the bin is at the end of the line right the bin
is at the end of every materials waste materials
life and so by taking that away we're kind of
going back to nature because that's where there
is no bin and so that's where we're designing
from and everyone it sounds maybe lofty to say
that chefs are designers of course we are of
course if you're designing a dish you're a designer
and so where does that design manifest where
is it coming from what is its function purpose
what is its variables and so if you're thinking
from the point of nature the environment you
know equanimity then you understand that this
farm is saying this. This farm is saying that
there is an abundance of pumpkin. Okay, so we're
designing pumpkin onto the menu. You know, you
don't want to create waste. You're like, okay,
what about the pumpkin guts? What about the pumpkin
skin? And you have an intention to minimize waste.
And so you're like innovating and you're designing
ultimately from nature, but then you're designing
from an intention. And then... Finding ways of
creating that excellence, always, always, always
excellence. And then you eventually, because
it is a harder pursuit to find excellence in
the unknown. You know, we don't know that pumpkin
guts can be excellent, do we? Until you discover
that pumpkin gut exo sauce where, you know, you've
put the pumpkin guts through a process of sacrification
and then you've introduced all these kind of
delicious fats and spices and you're layering
flavor into these pumpkin guts. And then, you
know, you're dressing this smoked pumpkin with
that and then you've got this pumpkin skin marmalade
and, you know, it's a... So the creative process
is a response to the intention, to the environment,
to the circumstances of our kitchen. You know,
if something is a mounting that has no purpose,
pathway, we need to create that. And so that's
our intention is to close that loop, to design
a system with no loose ends. And so that's the
creative process. And that can be anyone. That's
not a Doug thing. Will, Moon, Gabby, the whole
team are part of that closed -loop system, and
we're all trying to innovate and question how
can we do everything better at every stage. It's
just having that clear vision of a closed -loop
system and being it. That's amazing. Super interesting.
I had a silly question because we were asking
this through our stories and nobody could give
us a nice answer. And also between ourselves,
like what do you recommend doing with carrot
greens? Like, because we heard like, yeah, to
the stock, but it makes it bitter making a pesto.
And yeah, but it's also like super grassy and
herbal and like in a bad way. Like what, what
would you recommend with that one? Okay. So.
What I'm going to introduce is the mindset to
upcycle anything, whether that's an edible food
scrap like carrot tops or an empty glass bottle
into a plate or whatever. The mindset is this.
What does the ingredient want to become? And
that might sound like really like, what do you
mean? If you're upcycling a carrot top, what
does it want to become? It's not very fragrant.
It doesn't have a herbaceous flavor that's going
to make an amazing oil. If you blend... carrot
tops into an oil, like you might blend, I don't
know, marigold into an oil. You know, you get
this incredible marigold perfume, right? And
the marigold oil makes sense. And that's a logical
thing to do with marigold. But carrot tops, no.
It does not want to become a flavoured oil. However,
it does impart a nice green color. And if that
means something to you, maybe that is a path.
Maybe you can layer flavors into an oil that
you want to be green. Maybe you're coming from
a nutritional point of view and you want the
nutrition of the carrot tops. Therefore, maybe
if you want to absorb lots of nutrients, blend
it into a smoothie. And so you see how the answers
start to reveal themselves when you ask what
it wants and doesn't want to become. And you
understand maybe when you're milling flour and
you've got bran, the bran is a dense, oily, fibrous
material in which it doesn't want to become something
light and fluffy because it's oily and dense
and fibrous, which is the opposite, right? So
you think, right, what? might bran want to become
in the pathway of dense oily you know textured
and you then turn it into a wafer into a biscuit
and so you start to the answer reveals itself
at the end of a conversation in which you know
you're understanding its needs its wants and
so you just shift your mindset and Carrot tops
don't make a great pesto. If you ever do a side
by side, it's not a bad pesto. I would recommend
blanching it and introducing loads of confit
garlic, but it is still not as good as a basil
pesto. It just isn't. And so when you introduce
a large mass of a flavorless thing, you need
to remember that. In the absence of flavor, you
need to introduce enormous injections of flavor.
Again, it's this balancing act. If you're introducing
flavor, what is an enormous amount of flavor?
Things like chili, garlic. You've extrapolated
what it isn't, and then you realize what it needs.
to become something great and then you start
to layer in these different um aspects of um
you know intense flavor whether that's anchovies
whether that's chilies you know very impactful
intense flavors that then build flavor on something
that doesn't have much flavor and from different
areas of the industry there are different reasons
why you might use it and in a fine dining kitchen
there are not that many uses of carrot tops but
in a different section maybe there's a drink
that wants to be green on the bar that makes
sense to then move it into that direction or
from a chef's nutritional point of view maybe
you make staff smoothies so you know you start
to reveal something's purpose when you think
In that way. Well, thank you so much. And a great
pleasure. Thank you. Thank you both. Hi, everyone.
This is our favorite section. Go fact yourself.
You have a cooking myth that you would love to
debunk, Douglas, off the top of your head. Oh,
yeah, I do. Oh, fantastic. I must not be the
only one to debunk this. It must be in the minds
of hundreds and thousands of chefs. Every time
a stock is made and you chuck in all these expensive
ingredients like, you know, a bunch of herbs,
a bunch of like garlic and all these different
things. at the beginning, and then all of those
precious volatiles and nuance just disappears.
Now, building a stock, the base of a liquid,
you know that you want certain aspects. Maybe
you want the gelatin, maybe you want sweetness,
so you add bones and carrots to build those building
blocks. of of texture and of certain qualities
right but then just like introducing uh your
bouquet garni you know you're at the end give
it like there's a 20 minute window in which you
know you want to finish this sauce and you introduce
all of those accents to that liquid that you've
Typically, traditionally always instructed to
add at the beginning, but you add that at the
end and just let that perfume enhance. Assured
infusion. Infuse at the end. And, you know, it's
just the way in which it's added at the beginning
and it should be added at the end is what I want
to debunk. Happy to be wrong. If anyone listens
to this and says, no, actually, this is why you're
wrong. Happy to be wrong. Go fact yourself.