WEBVTT 00:00:04.059 --> 00:00:06.980 Hi, everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks, 00:00:06.980 --> 00:00:09.660 the show where we talk food, fire, and the beautiful 00:00:09.660 --> 00:00:12.699 chaos of kitchens, all from the cook's side of 00:00:12.699 --> 00:00:16.100 the pass. I'm Eric B., not the one with the gold 00:00:16.100 --> 00:00:18.519 chains, and I'm here with Phil Rakim, not the 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:20.899 one with the golden metrics. Today, we're talking 00:00:20.899 --> 00:00:24.100 scraps, but definitely not the sad kind you clean 00:00:24.100 --> 00:00:26.809 off the floor. We're joined by Douglas McMaster, 00:00:26.989 --> 00:00:30.269 chef, author, and zero -waste trailblazer who's 00:00:30.269 --> 00:00:33.170 been turning compost into cuisine and broken 00:00:33.170 --> 00:00:35.450 glass into dinnerware since before it was cool. 00:00:35.609 --> 00:00:38.210 We're talking next level, no bean, closed -loop 00:00:38.210 --> 00:00:52.770 culinary wizardry. But first... Just as a first 00:00:52.770 --> 00:00:55.670 question, there's been a lot of discussion in 00:00:55.670 --> 00:00:59.109 our social media channels about zero waste, what's 00:00:59.109 --> 00:01:01.810 zero waste, what's the real thing, what's not. 00:01:02.070 --> 00:01:05.469 And we've always mentioned you as an example 00:01:05.469 --> 00:01:09.170 of it. So maybe I wanted to start with how did 00:01:09.170 --> 00:01:11.469 this all start? Because as a first impression, 00:01:11.730 --> 00:01:13.849 I would say that if somebody would tell me, yes, 00:01:13.930 --> 00:01:15.849 I'm going to open a restaurant with no trash 00:01:15.849 --> 00:01:18.829 bins and where nothing is wasted and everything 00:01:18.829 --> 00:01:22.879 is reutilized. I think I would say that's impossible. 00:01:23.260 --> 00:01:26.920 And I think one of the main quotes that have 00:01:26.920 --> 00:01:31.079 transcended from your philosophy is that that's 00:01:31.079 --> 00:01:33.299 a failure of imagination, like thinking like 00:01:33.299 --> 00:01:37.099 that. And that was really like mindset shifting 00:01:37.099 --> 00:01:39.659 for me and I guess for a lot of people in the 00:01:39.659 --> 00:01:42.900 industry. So where did it all start for you? 00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:45.299 Yeah, thank you. Yeah, well, I appreciate that 00:01:45.299 --> 00:01:48.959 that landed and the work resonates. It is possible, 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:53.680 though highly improbable, to be zero waste, to 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:56.900 not have a bin. But before maybe I answer that, 00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:00.359 I think to do something a bit different, to... 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:05.560 describe in my worldview what is zero waste and 00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:08.580 before that what is sustainability because these 00:02:08.580 --> 00:02:10.840 are words that we hear battered around a lot 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:14.319 and I don't think not necessarily everybody has 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:17.219 given it a deep amount of thought and I think 00:02:17.219 --> 00:02:21.300 it's really took me a long time to simplify it 00:02:21.300 --> 00:02:24.139 but in a single word sustainability would be 00:02:24.139 --> 00:02:27.740 the word balance and so if you imagine an environment 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:31.139 in which we are sustaining an environment, that 00:02:31.139 --> 00:02:34.819 we are taking resources from the environment, 00:02:34.979 --> 00:02:37.419 whether that's food or materials that we need 00:02:37.419 --> 00:02:40.919 to provide a system, such as a restaurant. And 00:02:40.919 --> 00:02:45.439 if we are taking faster than we're regenerating 00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:48.259 into that system, whether that's a farm or the 00:02:48.259 --> 00:02:52.199 materials, then that is out of balance and that 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:56.150 is not sustainable. So sustainability is... a 00:02:56.150 --> 00:02:59.009 relationship with our environment uh that is 00:02:59.009 --> 00:03:03.289 uh in in in harmony in balance um so that's what 00:03:03.289 --> 00:03:06.050 sustainability is balance and you could look 00:03:06.050 --> 00:03:08.110 at that or extrapolate that through any different 00:03:08.110 --> 00:03:12.849 system um and side note uh we're talking about 00:03:12.849 --> 00:03:15.069 environmental sustainability you know you can 00:03:15.069 --> 00:03:17.150 talk about economic sustainability and that's 00:03:17.150 --> 00:03:21.500 a different metric and then zero waste is a fascinating 00:03:21.500 --> 00:03:24.520 uh you already called it a philosophy which i 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:28.120 do appreciate because it is a philosophy is a 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:31.340 world view and my world view through the lens 00:03:31.340 --> 00:03:34.719 of zero waste is that uh on this planet of which 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:38.419 we have finite resources um we need to find balance 00:03:38.419 --> 00:03:41.240 we need to find this sustainability otherwise 00:03:41.240 --> 00:03:44.219 you know there is no future for my son for for 00:03:44.219 --> 00:03:47.520 you know um for our future generations and so 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:51.080 it's important Now, zero waste is sustainability. 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:54.699 It's a different lens in which we look at our 00:03:54.699 --> 00:03:57.759 relationship with our environment. We like to, 00:03:57.879 --> 00:04:02.419 in very literal terms, define that as not having 00:04:02.419 --> 00:04:06.780 a bin, specifically a general waste bin. A compost 00:04:06.780 --> 00:04:11.080 bin is arguably a circular bin. That food waste 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:15.360 will go back to become food for the soil, which 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:18.100 will grow food. And so that's not a bad bin. 00:04:18.139 --> 00:04:20.579 That's a good bin. Recycling, you know, there 00:04:20.579 --> 00:04:22.980 are really good recyclable materials that are 00:04:22.980 --> 00:04:26.899 circular. Again, not a bad bin. It's a pretty 00:04:26.899 --> 00:04:29.540 good bin. It at least shows our intention to 00:04:29.540 --> 00:04:32.819 make things circular. Now, the general waste 00:04:32.819 --> 00:04:36.779 bin, that's the bad bin. That's the naughty, 00:04:36.980 --> 00:04:41.699 sleazy, dirty coffin from which... These badly 00:04:41.699 --> 00:04:46.819 designed materials that feed our lazy behavior 00:04:46.819 --> 00:04:51.060 on this earth go to die. And so that's the problem 00:04:51.060 --> 00:04:53.300 bin. That's the bin that's not good. That's the 00:04:53.300 --> 00:04:58.300 bin that nature does not appreciate. And so that's 00:04:58.300 --> 00:05:01.620 the bit that makes Silo unique, a restaurant 00:05:01.620 --> 00:05:04.860 that respects its environment and its resources. 00:05:05.060 --> 00:05:08.370 So hopefully that lays some... good groundwork 00:05:08.370 --> 00:05:10.730 for the conversation ahead i think it's important 00:05:10.730 --> 00:05:13.490 just to to simply understand what sustainability 00:05:13.490 --> 00:05:18.089 means and the lens of zero waste so but the to 00:05:18.089 --> 00:05:21.069 answer your question um there was an artist in 00:05:21.069 --> 00:05:25.970 australia um who said to me imagine a world without 00:05:25.970 --> 00:05:30.329 waste and i was 23 my dad was an artist i love 00:05:30.730 --> 00:05:33.730 all things abstract and art and thinking differently 00:05:33.730 --> 00:05:37.189 and it's just it's just part of who i am um and 00:05:37.189 --> 00:05:40.930 i was really really down and out in sydney at 00:05:40.930 --> 00:05:44.149 the time i was you know, wanting to tap out of 00:05:44.149 --> 00:05:47.529 hospitality. I was just in this awful cycle, 00:05:47.910 --> 00:05:52.410 destructive cycle, all the things we, the dark 00:05:52.410 --> 00:05:56.910 side of hospitality that we associate with. And 00:05:56.910 --> 00:05:59.209 yeah, it was just this artist that proposed this 00:05:59.209 --> 00:06:04.009 profound intention to not have waste in this 00:06:04.009 --> 00:06:07.310 world. And he was coming from a more, well, environmental 00:06:07.310 --> 00:06:10.250 and agricultural point of view and an architectural 00:06:10.250 --> 00:06:14.500 point of view. And as a young chef that had been 00:06:14.500 --> 00:06:16.680 working in the world's best restaurants, I was 00:06:16.680 --> 00:06:20.259 all around the world because I was really, really 00:06:20.259 --> 00:06:25.279 bad at school. I'm a school dropout, never diagnosed, 00:06:25.379 --> 00:06:28.220 but neurodivergent and didn't like academia. 00:06:28.860 --> 00:06:33.279 And so kitchens were amazing. places for for 00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:35.959 me to be in to express myself and i did quite 00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:38.199 well and worked in some great restaurants but 00:06:38.199 --> 00:06:41.399 you know what it's like the industry is a a really 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:44.639 challenging place certainly it was 20 years ago 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:47.220 and then yeah i was just sort of i don't know 00:06:47.220 --> 00:06:50.839 just looking i wasn't looking for the light but 00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:54.279 as soon as the light appeared i was i was like 00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:56.800 right this is this path is what i'm going to 00:06:56.800 --> 00:06:59.259 follow for the rest of my life and i felt it 00:06:59.629 --> 00:07:02.790 in that intention, in that intention just simply 00:07:02.790 --> 00:07:06.310 to not have a bin. I was like, this is what I'm 00:07:06.310 --> 00:07:08.250 going to spend the rest of my life doing. And 00:07:08.250 --> 00:07:10.930 it was just crystal clear from that moment. In 00:07:10.930 --> 00:07:13.370 case you're wondering, the name of the artist 00:07:13.370 --> 00:07:16.850 is Just Packer. He's a Dutch -born designer and 00:07:16.850 --> 00:07:20.319 zero -waste pioneer. And Phil. Go ahead. You 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:21.860 have the word. Yeah, that's super interesting 00:07:21.860 --> 00:07:23.740 to hear because I was actually, it's actually 00:07:23.740 --> 00:07:25.720 something I wanted to ask you about is kind of 00:07:25.720 --> 00:07:28.439 like, well, from a point where you decide, oh, 00:07:28.500 --> 00:07:30.699 I want to, I want to work in food. I want to, 00:07:30.699 --> 00:07:32.439 I want to do, you know, I want to cook for a 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:34.540 living. So how you get to the point where you 00:07:34.540 --> 00:07:35.959 sort of like, because we all have different things 00:07:35.959 --> 00:07:37.899 that kind of like spark our interest, you know, 00:07:37.899 --> 00:07:40.680 that was sort of like, okay, this aspect of a 00:07:40.680 --> 00:07:43.040 certain topic or a certain craft is what really 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:47.519 kind of like fulfills me and interests me. how 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:49.800 you arrive at that point where you sort of, where 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:51.759 you have, like you say, this aha moment where 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:53.300 you're like, okay, now I see the light. This 00:07:53.300 --> 00:07:56.600 is really what I can really like deeply relate 00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:59.480 to inside of this field. You know, going from 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:02.399 that, from after meeting Joost and having this 00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:06.199 spark, this kind of idea and this sort of beginning 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:10.180 of a direction maybe, like how did you proceed 00:08:10.180 --> 00:08:12.139 from there? Like what were the first steps and 00:08:12.139 --> 00:08:14.079 like how did you basically like sow the seed 00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:16.879 of what? in the end would become Silo and everything 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:19.379 that followed. I just want to point out that 00:08:19.379 --> 00:08:24.399 I didn't know anything special. I'd worked in 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:27.680 some good restaurants, but I hadn't been raised 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:31.480 in an environmental family. My mum and dad were 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:35.779 certainly not foodies. And I didn't even know 00:08:35.779 --> 00:08:37.960 what the word sustainability meant. Yeah, I didn't 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:40.580 really know what to do with this feeling. And 00:08:40.580 --> 00:08:43.000 that's largely what it was. It was this feeling. 00:08:43.059 --> 00:08:45.980 And perhaps if there was ever some advice in 00:08:45.980 --> 00:08:48.379 this sort of moment, it would be, you know, I 00:08:48.379 --> 00:08:52.379 feel privileged. I genuinely, genuinely feel 00:08:52.379 --> 00:08:56.039 privileged to have had that light appear, to 00:08:56.039 --> 00:08:58.720 have found that thing that, you know, makes me, 00:08:58.860 --> 00:09:02.759 makes every cell in my body like wake to attention. 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:08.019 feel so much energy when focusing on this project 00:09:08.019 --> 00:09:12.419 i do feel blessed we all you know as you pointed 00:09:12.419 --> 00:09:15.379 out phil are in this industry for different reasons 00:09:15.379 --> 00:09:18.539 and i would just say like follow that feeling 00:09:18.539 --> 00:09:20.700 you know and it is a feeling like whether it's 00:09:20.700 --> 00:09:24.120 pastry whether it's technique whether it's leadership 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:27.419 wine hospitality whatever it is just like really 00:09:27.419 --> 00:09:31.500 be sensitive to your own feelings within the 00:09:31.500 --> 00:09:35.240 hospitality space and just follow that and just 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:38.200 keep refining that and question everything and 00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:40.179 you know you'll you'll start seeing things differently 00:09:40.179 --> 00:09:44.379 and that's where you find a project you know 00:09:44.379 --> 00:09:47.320 a unique it not everyone has to innovate but 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:49.779 you'll you'll find what you're looking for if 00:09:49.779 --> 00:09:53.519 you follow that feeling But no, it began with 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:57.139 a pop -up. I was trying to do something with 00:09:57.139 --> 00:10:01.220 this energy, I felt, and I did a pop -up called 00:10:01.220 --> 00:10:05.179 Wasted. Now, this was in 2010. A lot of people 00:10:05.179 --> 00:10:08.139 in the industry know the Wasted pop -up as the 00:10:08.139 --> 00:10:13.440 Dan Barber pop -up in Selfridges in London. But 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:16.360 before that came a very small pop -up in Sydney 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:21.159 in 2010 or 11, I can't remember. long time ago. 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:25.019 And at that time, the knowledge wasn't as deep 00:10:25.019 --> 00:10:28.419 as it is now for what sustainability and zero 00:10:28.419 --> 00:10:31.340 waste really mean. So at the time, it was that 00:10:31.340 --> 00:10:34.139 kind of surface level interpretation of what 00:10:34.139 --> 00:10:40.559 if I could turn all of the scraps that the restaurant 00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:44.820 I work for currently is throwing away into a 00:10:44.820 --> 00:10:48.440 dinner that is better than the restaurant I'm 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:50.940 currently working in. I'm not going to name the 00:10:50.940 --> 00:10:52.440 restaurant, but it was one of the world's best 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:56.779 restaurants and it created like 70 % waste, meaning 00:10:56.779 --> 00:10:59.299 that 30 % of what they were purchasing, what 00:10:59.299 --> 00:11:03.059 was coming from nature was being maximized. Most 00:11:03.059 --> 00:11:07.039 fine dining restaurants are like 40, 50, you 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:10.519 know, more casual restaurants are like 60, maybe 00:11:10.519 --> 00:11:13.759 70, if it's really resourceful. But this restaurant 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:17.320 was horrendous. It was like 30 % food going on 00:11:17.320 --> 00:11:21.330 the plate. And I just. I actually stood on a 00:11:21.330 --> 00:11:24.009 section, and I'm not exaggerating here, where 00:11:24.009 --> 00:11:26.690 there was me and two or three other chefs. I 00:11:26.690 --> 00:11:30.009 stood over two or three bins, one per person, 00:11:30.169 --> 00:11:34.409 and it was just this black void in which we plucked 00:11:34.409 --> 00:11:40.070 every single lettuce from a gorgeous two -foot 00:11:40.070 --> 00:11:43.990 biodynamic cost lettuce from this biodynamic 00:11:43.990 --> 00:11:47.279 farm in the Blue Mountains in Sydney. And every 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:49.960 single leaf went straight down into this dark 00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:55.059 tunnel, into this grave. And we would pick. hundreds 00:11:55.059 --> 00:11:59.039 of these like lettuces straight into the bin 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:03.100 and we were trying to acquire the core the the 00:12:03.100 --> 00:12:06.259 lettuce core and there was a main course with 00:12:06.259 --> 00:12:10.000 three lettuce cores on the main course dish but 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:12.820 to achieve that we would throw every single one 00:12:12.820 --> 00:12:15.419 thousands of these leaves every day into a bin 00:12:15.419 --> 00:12:19.019 thousands and then we would throw these black 00:12:19.019 --> 00:12:23.360 bins into a skip and it was horrible That was 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:25.220 the kind of waste that I was witnessing in that 00:12:25.220 --> 00:12:28.620 time. And yeah, I did a dinner called Wasted. 00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:32.440 It's called Ten Bukali. It's a cafe in Sydney. 00:12:32.620 --> 00:12:36.440 And yeah, it was just three nights in which every 00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:40.179 ingredient was surplus, which isn't what zero 00:12:40.179 --> 00:12:44.139 waste is. Zero waste is a system that doesn't 00:12:44.139 --> 00:12:47.539 have waste. That was a specific expression of 00:12:47.539 --> 00:12:51.940 zero waste that uses just the surplus. And it's 00:12:51.940 --> 00:12:54.200 just a misconception. Often people think that 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:57.340 zero waste is where you use scraps and you do, 00:12:57.460 --> 00:13:00.200 but you also use all of the primary cuts as well. 00:13:00.220 --> 00:13:03.399 And that's the holistic nature of silo as a restaurant. 00:13:03.460 --> 00:13:06.539 And that's really important point. You know, 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:09.240 we don't just use scraps. So that's how it started, 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:13.080 a pop -up called Wasted, just to see if I could 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:15.740 produce a menu that was as good as this world 00:13:15.740 --> 00:13:20.139 -class restaurant that I was working. from using 00:13:20.139 --> 00:13:23.360 just their scraps can i make it as good as i 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:25.799 probably wasn't as good as you know i'm a good 00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:28.179 chef but not that good i thankfully have worked 00:13:28.179 --> 00:13:30.440 with chefs that are that good that have realized 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:33.080 that dream but um but yeah that's how it started 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:37.000 and then uh me and this guy yoast um it's a difficult 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:40.179 name to pronounce j -o -o -s -t if you spell 00:13:40.179 --> 00:13:44.210 it yoast pronounce it with a y Um, but yeah, 00:13:44.289 --> 00:13:48.570 so me and Yo started Silo in Melbourne. This 00:13:48.570 --> 00:13:50.549 was after the pop -up when I'd got his attention 00:13:50.549 --> 00:13:53.690 and he knew I could cook. Um, we then opened 00:13:53.690 --> 00:13:57.230 Silo as a, as a, as a kind of concept cafe in 00:13:57.230 --> 00:14:00.070 Melbourne in 2012. So yeah, that's how it started. 00:14:00.309 --> 00:14:03.389 I was reviewing your book these last days and 00:14:03.389 --> 00:14:05.919 there's a part where you talk about that. And 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:07.919 I think this is interesting for our audience 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:10.440 that are mainly young chefs, that you talk about 00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:12.639 your beginnings, that you traveled all over the 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:14.820 world, that you wanted to take a little bit of 00:14:14.820 --> 00:14:18.039 the philosophies of different chefs. What can 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:21.259 you share about that period? Yeah, well, it started 00:14:21.259 --> 00:14:25.480 at St. John. That's a great question. And, you 00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:28.320 know, I think as you go through your career. 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:32.240 Knowing, you know, we talked about how things 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:34.940 make you feel like subject, but then it's also 00:14:34.940 --> 00:14:38.159 like people. I was so lucky to have great mentors. 00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:41.919 I worked at St. John and that was a very significant 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:45.019 establishment for me because lots of things. 00:14:45.139 --> 00:14:47.200 It's really good at teaching chefs how to cook. 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:49.720 You know, you can't hide behind sous vide bags 00:14:49.720 --> 00:14:53.720 or, you know, a big line of chefs working like 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:56.200 a factory. It was not like that. It was you're 00:14:56.200 --> 00:15:00.200 on a section with two people or there's maybe 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:04.220 four chefs in total cooking for 120 people. But 00:15:04.220 --> 00:15:06.460 it's considered a world -leading restaurant. 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:10.679 And so, yeah, you'd really have to know how to 00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:15.039 cook. Both Fergus as a sort of the leader of 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:18.080 that project, but then James, who then went on 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:20.860 to do Lyle's, was my head chef at the time. He 00:15:20.860 --> 00:15:24.840 was an amazing... And then we had Justin Galatly, 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:29.360 the pastry chef. I was on pastry with him and 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:32.539 an incredible team at that time. And Lee Tiernan 00:15:32.539 --> 00:15:35.820 from Black Axe Mangal, all great mentors all 00:15:35.820 --> 00:15:38.360 at once. So that's where it began, this kind 00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:41.940 of awakening. And when I say awakening, what 00:15:41.940 --> 00:15:47.080 I mean is before that, I was asleep in the industry 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:50.600 where I was doing classic French food that just... 00:15:50.779 --> 00:15:54.340 didn't make me feel anything. I just, no disrespect 00:15:54.340 --> 00:15:57.399 to classic French food, I love it. But the kitchens 00:15:57.399 --> 00:16:02.340 I was working in just didn't do anything to sort 00:16:02.340 --> 00:16:04.360 of move me. And then I worked at St. John and 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:11.559 then everything started to ignite. And, you know, 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:13.659 the passions for so many different aspects of 00:16:13.659 --> 00:16:17.110 hospitality began at St. John. And I just remember 00:16:17.110 --> 00:16:21.509 the feeling of excitement and thinking, oh my 00:16:21.509 --> 00:16:25.350 God, like St. John is such a thoughtful, and 00:16:25.350 --> 00:16:27.450 I'm going to use the word abstraction, because 00:16:27.450 --> 00:16:30.029 from the rest of the industry at that time, it 00:16:30.029 --> 00:16:32.909 was an abstraction, you know, to open the St. 00:16:32.950 --> 00:16:36.090 John cookbook and see, I don't know, like brains 00:16:36.090 --> 00:16:41.450 and squirrel and, you know, awful and this kind 00:16:41.450 --> 00:16:44.190 of like ugly, pretty. I don't want to call it 00:16:44.190 --> 00:16:46.289 ugly food because, you know, it's in the eye 00:16:46.289 --> 00:16:48.629 of the beholder. It is beautiful with the right 00:16:48.629 --> 00:16:53.009 person viewing it. But I thought it was ugly 00:16:53.009 --> 00:16:55.850 at the time. And then it just shifted my perception 00:16:55.850 --> 00:16:59.490 of what good food is, what good hospitality is, 00:16:59.629 --> 00:17:02.029 what good people are. You know, there's some 00:17:02.029 --> 00:17:04.049 good people there. And I hadn't witnessed that 00:17:04.049 --> 00:17:07.009 in kitchens at that point. And so, yes, St. John 00:17:07.009 --> 00:17:09.170 just set me on this path of thinking, oh, my 00:17:09.170 --> 00:17:11.529 God, what else is there in this industry that... 00:17:11.980 --> 00:17:14.880 is another abstraction. And so I'd sent my CV 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:18.019 to NOMA. That was the next place. I've got a 00:17:18.019 --> 00:17:22.299 long relationship with the team at NOMA. I staged 00:17:22.299 --> 00:17:25.799 at the first ever NOMA and then have done lots 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:29.119 of different events with them, including the 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:32.660 Mad Academy, worked with a lot of their team. 00:17:32.779 --> 00:17:36.720 And of course, NOMA needs no introduction. The 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:40.519 way in which they were... organizing and preparing 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:43.880 food and thinking about food was significantly 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:48.720 unique and that again just changed my perception 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:51.619 again and then i just started having this feeling 00:17:51.619 --> 00:17:55.339 like what if i could keep glimpsing through the 00:17:55.339 --> 00:17:59.119 eyes of these innovators what would that move 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:04.940 in me and then i went to um i went to stage of 00:18:04.940 --> 00:18:08.859 the fat duck um Did a lot of stages, a lot, a 00:18:08.859 --> 00:18:12.500 lot of stages. And then found my way to Australia 00:18:12.500 --> 00:18:16.460 and found this particular kitchen that I'd already 00:18:16.460 --> 00:18:20.940 introduced that I shouldn't name. But it was 00:18:20.940 --> 00:18:24.259 everything wrong in the industry. It was, it 00:18:24.259 --> 00:18:27.019 was literally everything you could, you could 00:18:27.019 --> 00:18:30.099 say now is, you know, aspects of the industry 00:18:30.099 --> 00:18:34.220 that we are not proud of and we deplore was kind 00:18:34.220 --> 00:18:37.759 of just. proudly presented it was gross it was 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:40.099 really not a good kitchen and and that sometimes 00:18:40.099 --> 00:18:44.960 is important to to feel too it's like that feeling 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:50.359 of like disgust let that guide you to who you 00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:53.880 become to the leader you become to the restaurant 00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:57.859 you create you know like that what disgusted 00:18:57.859 --> 00:19:00.559 me the bullying the violence the pretentiousness 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:04.259 the ego It was like, right, if I ever open a 00:19:04.259 --> 00:19:07.920 restaurant, which became Silo, everything that 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:11.779 that was, it will not be. And so that was as 00:19:11.779 --> 00:19:15.200 significant an inspiration as all of the good 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:19.680 stuff, you know? So, yeah, so that was my idea 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:22.440 that I was just going to get these glimpses of 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:25.000 different unique perceptions of the industry, 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:28.180 of food, of hospitality. And I think it definitely 00:19:28.180 --> 00:19:32.869 helped move the way. I was able to innovate, 00:19:33.029 --> 00:19:37.250 and I think Silo has innovated enormously. I'm 00:19:37.250 --> 00:19:39.869 very, very proud of that. And so, yeah, I don't 00:19:39.869 --> 00:19:43.109 know. Maybe not everyone will resonate with that, 00:19:43.150 --> 00:19:46.230 but that's certainly what worked for me. Yeah, 00:19:46.250 --> 00:19:49.670 I think that's really relatable. I think a lot 00:19:49.670 --> 00:19:56.319 of chefs have that sort of process where... They, 00:19:56.420 --> 00:19:58.940 and I certainly did, you know, I remember when 00:19:58.940 --> 00:20:02.599 I started very similarly and was lucky to work 00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:04.420 in a really good kitchen where there was a real 00:20:04.420 --> 00:20:07.759 sort of soulful approach to cooking with, you 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:10.339 know, an organic garden outside of the city and 00:20:10.339 --> 00:20:13.779 a very direct relation to good produce and obviously 00:20:13.779 --> 00:20:16.359 not, you know, zero waste cooking. But, you know, 00:20:16.359 --> 00:20:18.099 there was, because we were growing a lot of the 00:20:18.099 --> 00:20:21.440 produce, there was a lot more consciousness about 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:24.039 preserving and not wasting so much. There was 00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:26.579 a lot of appreciation. And I had a very similar 00:20:26.579 --> 00:20:30.079 experience where I went very early on at a very 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:32.660 young age, got into this very famous big restaurant 00:20:32.660 --> 00:20:35.240 in Spain that I had put on this massive pedestal. 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:37.779 And then when I arrived there, it was a harsh 00:20:37.779 --> 00:20:41.460 realization, a bucket of cold water. And I remember 00:20:41.460 --> 00:20:43.339 like after like half a year of being there, I 00:20:43.339 --> 00:20:44.880 looked around and I was like, this is just not 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:48.099 where I want to go. And then you sort of change 00:20:48.099 --> 00:20:50.890 trajectory. So I think it's very relatable for 00:20:50.890 --> 00:20:55.630 sure. But then, so after having the cafe in Sydney, 00:20:55.789 --> 00:20:58.349 then was that the point where you crowdfunded 00:20:58.349 --> 00:21:02.509 and moved the whole idea to London? When you're 00:21:02.509 --> 00:21:04.890 from England and living in Australia and you 00:21:04.890 --> 00:21:08.269 have a family crisis, it's not ideal. And I was 00:21:08.269 --> 00:21:12.630 flying, you know, 26 -hour journeys back to England 00:21:12.630 --> 00:21:17.829 to be with my family. And it just became... to 00:21:17.829 --> 00:21:20.029 the point of, like, I need to move back to the 00:21:20.029 --> 00:21:23.650 UK for family reasons. So, yeah, I left Yoast 00:21:23.650 --> 00:21:28.190 and this journey and wanted to open Silo in East 00:21:28.190 --> 00:21:32.630 London, of course. I just couldn't. I was 26 00:21:32.630 --> 00:21:36.690 and talking about prophecies and, you know, zero 00:21:36.690 --> 00:21:38.950 -waste systems and, you know, people didn't even 00:21:38.950 --> 00:21:43.930 talk about sustainability in 2012. Like, Silo 00:21:43.930 --> 00:21:47.809 opened in... Brighton in 2014 and nobody was 00:21:47.809 --> 00:21:50.230 talking about these things, I genuinely started 00:21:50.230 --> 00:21:54.849 to feel like I'd gone mad because I was so sure 00:21:54.849 --> 00:21:58.250 that this was the future. But for years, it just, 00:21:58.509 --> 00:22:00.930 you know, they say that two things can happen 00:22:00.930 --> 00:22:03.750 to a trend. One is that they fall off a cliff 00:22:03.750 --> 00:22:06.609 and the other is that they become the status 00:22:06.609 --> 00:22:10.960 quo. And I was so sure that zero waste and sustainability 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:14.680 were going to be the status quo and that I was 00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:18.200 on the right path. But for years, it just wasn't. 00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:21.140 And I thought, oh, my God, this is falling off 00:22:21.140 --> 00:22:23.980 a cliff. Everything I'm doing and saying, it's 00:22:23.980 --> 00:22:26.259 just nobody is listening. And it was like that 00:22:26.259 --> 00:22:29.960 for years and years. We got a lot of press, but 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:32.599 that doesn't mean that it's something that's 00:22:32.599 --> 00:22:34.900 accepted. You know, that just means it's different. 00:22:35.309 --> 00:22:39.690 Press feeds on difference. And Silo was different, 00:22:39.809 --> 00:22:42.009 very different. And so we got a lot of press. 00:22:42.250 --> 00:22:44.670 But that didn't mean that people were listening. 00:22:45.130 --> 00:22:48.390 And then there was an episode of Blue Planet 00:22:48.390 --> 00:22:52.490 that changed everything, I think. Because we 00:22:52.490 --> 00:22:57.549 were a dying restaurant in Brighton. And then 00:22:57.549 --> 00:22:59.930 Blue Planet revealed this episode of plastic 00:22:59.930 --> 00:23:03.069 pollution in the ocean. And I didn't actually 00:23:03.069 --> 00:23:06.170 see it. But all of a sudden, our business went 00:23:06.170 --> 00:23:10.130 from dying to thriving, and we couldn't figure 00:23:10.130 --> 00:23:13.069 out why. It was just a very ordinary month with 00:23:13.069 --> 00:23:16.490 no particular waves of tourism. Brighton's a 00:23:16.490 --> 00:23:20.420 touristy city. got so much busier all of a sudden 00:23:20.420 --> 00:23:23.440 and we never know for sure that it was blue planet 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:26.220 but it just went like that and all of a sudden 00:23:26.220 --> 00:23:29.039 we were i wouldn't say busy but we were busier 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:32.420 we were sustainably busy and uh and yeah that 00:23:32.420 --> 00:23:35.970 was a significant moment in which The movement, 00:23:36.269 --> 00:23:38.789 which I think it's safe to say now, sustainability 00:23:38.789 --> 00:23:41.890 and zero waste is a movement. That was the moment 00:23:41.890 --> 00:23:44.349 where it shifted significantly. And there's been 00:23:44.349 --> 00:23:48.450 other markers in the last 11 years. But that 00:23:48.450 --> 00:23:51.809 was the first significant marker in which there 00:23:51.809 --> 00:23:53.410 was a positive shift in the right direction. 00:23:53.829 --> 00:23:56.470 Phil, do you recommend podcasts to your friends? 00:23:56.710 --> 00:23:59.599 All the time. The best way of showing friends 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:01.720 that you care is recommending a great podcast 00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:04.859 to listen to. I agree. If you're listening right 00:24:04.859 --> 00:24:07.259 now, you should show your love by recommending 00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:10.799 or show to all your best friends. It will make 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:13.920 them happy. It will make us happy. PopLock Food 00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:16.619 Talks. Tell your friends. It will make the world 00:24:16.619 --> 00:24:21.420 a better place. I think sustainability in zero 00:24:21.420 --> 00:24:24.460 waste is a movement, but it's also a trend. And 00:24:24.460 --> 00:24:26.339 I would say it's also something that everybody 00:24:26.339 --> 00:24:29.759 wants to Talk the talk, but not everybody wants 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:34.619 to go through the walk. And you see that in companies, 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:38.460 that's where greenwashing comes from and all 00:24:38.460 --> 00:24:40.279 these things that everybody wants to say, yes, 00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:43.740 I want the sustainability certificate. But at 00:24:43.740 --> 00:24:45.380 the moment when you have to, I don't know, recycle. 00:24:46.470 --> 00:24:49.910 plastic containers that are not pretty, and then 00:24:49.910 --> 00:24:53.069 that's not so sexy anymore. I wanted to briefly 00:24:53.069 --> 00:24:56.130 mention about your book. I was reviewing it this 00:24:56.130 --> 00:24:58.829 last day. It's a very interesting book because, 00:24:58.950 --> 00:25:01.549 as you mentioned in the intro, it's not a cookbook. 00:25:01.750 --> 00:25:04.809 It's more like, I would say, like a handbook, 00:25:04.910 --> 00:25:07.470 like a philosophy book. It's very interesting, 00:25:07.529 --> 00:25:09.789 and for me, the perception it gives me about 00:25:09.789 --> 00:25:14.150 Silo now that it's, I like to call it a finished... 00:25:14.349 --> 00:25:18.410 project is that I would describe it as a very 00:25:18.410 --> 00:25:22.700 long innovation experiment. As with any innovation 00:25:22.700 --> 00:25:25.799 experiment, there's a lot of things that go wrong. 00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:27.740 And you mention a lot of these things in the 00:25:27.740 --> 00:25:30.420 book. What would you say, what can you share 00:25:30.420 --> 00:25:33.640 about the experiments that went wrong and what 00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:36.700 did you learn from them? That's a great question. 00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:41.279 And I can safely say that there's been more mistakes 00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:44.779 than there has been success. There is a phrase 00:25:44.779 --> 00:25:48.559 in agriculture called a land race. Now, a land 00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:52.359 race is a really... clever idea in which a farmer, 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:57.920 he or she could take 100 new seed varieties and 00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:01.119 throw 100 different seeds down into an environment, 00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:04.539 into a terroir, and just watch over the next 00:26:04.539 --> 00:26:08.000 year or two years to see which of those varieties 00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:12.599 out -competed the other varieties. And so... 00:26:13.180 --> 00:26:17.140 After that year, the farmer may say, these are 00:26:17.140 --> 00:26:19.700 the three varieties that are thriving in this 00:26:19.700 --> 00:26:25.299 ecosystem. Silo has been the same process. This 00:26:25.299 --> 00:26:28.740 is just an analogy. I never thought this at the 00:26:28.740 --> 00:26:30.980 beginning. If I had thought this at the beginning, 00:26:31.059 --> 00:26:33.700 I wouldn't have pursued this project because 00:26:33.700 --> 00:26:38.079 the weight, the heartache, the challenges, the 00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:43.970 turbulence of this creative... tempest is heavy 00:26:43.970 --> 00:26:48.769 it weighs heavy and it just takes a certain obsessive 00:26:48.769 --> 00:26:53.650 crazed person to pursue through that pain and 00:26:53.650 --> 00:26:56.789 there has been an enormous amount of pain with 00:26:56.789 --> 00:27:02.089 that amount of failure but to the land race the 00:27:02.089 --> 00:27:08.170 analogy um you have to throw down so many different 00:27:08.170 --> 00:27:11.059 seeds in that environment Because that environment 00:27:11.059 --> 00:27:13.539 was unknown. And that's what a farmer's trying 00:27:13.539 --> 00:27:15.740 to understand is the unknown environment, what 00:27:15.740 --> 00:27:19.740 is going to thrive. And when Silo started, it 00:27:19.740 --> 00:27:23.740 was this entirely new food system in which everything 00:27:23.740 --> 00:27:27.539 was different. Nothing was familiar. Every single 00:27:27.539 --> 00:27:32.849 ingredient. was a whole product from a farm so 00:27:32.849 --> 00:27:35.950 there's no butter there is no yogurt there was 00:27:35.950 --> 00:27:38.970 no creme fraiche there was no anything that was 00:27:38.970 --> 00:27:43.119 pre -processed and so That, when you extrapolate 00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:47.279 that through every part of a restaurant, a kitchen, 00:27:47.500 --> 00:27:50.359 it changes everything, the dynamics of everything. 00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:52.579 Because when you start milling flour, you realize 00:27:52.579 --> 00:27:54.720 you've got bran and you can't waste the bran, 00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:57.000 so you have to design the bran in. And then you've 00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.940 got buttermilk, lots and lots and lots of buttermilk 00:27:59.940 --> 00:28:01.359 because you're churning all this butter because 00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:03.400 we love to use butter. And that means there's 00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:06.339 bathtubs of butter every single day. What do 00:28:06.339 --> 00:28:08.799 you do with all of that? And so this entire... 00:28:09.289 --> 00:28:12.829 system is completely different to any restaurant 00:28:12.829 --> 00:28:16.809 i'd ever worked in or seen and so everything 00:28:16.809 --> 00:28:20.490 was different and you know with buttermilk is 00:28:20.490 --> 00:28:23.990 a great example because there has been hundreds 00:28:23.990 --> 00:28:28.849 of different processes that have resulted in 00:28:28.849 --> 00:28:33.470 maybe five brilliant products. That took years 00:28:33.470 --> 00:28:37.369 of testing and researching and going deeper and 00:28:37.369 --> 00:28:40.970 deeper into the science of different proteins. 00:28:41.430 --> 00:28:45.170 Eventually, we found the right solutions, which 00:28:45.170 --> 00:28:48.529 is like the farmer throwing the different land 00:28:48.529 --> 00:28:52.079 -raised seeds. You eventually select. the ones 00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:54.480 that float to the top within the environment. 00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:58.240 That has been the course. It sounds kind of poetic 00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:03.119 and nice, but it was so far from nice. It was 00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:07.740 traumatizing at times to survive economically, 00:29:08.059 --> 00:29:13.259 to stay buoyant and keep trying to figure out 00:29:13.259 --> 00:29:18.019 what the cream of the crop actually is. Yeah, 00:29:18.019 --> 00:29:20.059 I mean, you know, I can imagine that starting 00:29:20.059 --> 00:29:22.799 a restaurant with that idea in mind and following 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:24.440 that feeling that you were describing, you know, 00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:26.660 a restaurant and like the way a kitchen functions 00:29:26.660 --> 00:29:29.279 is this sort of system that's very sort of similarly 00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:32.559 replicated around the world, you know, and it's 00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:34.980 kind of, I think it's very interesting, this 00:29:34.980 --> 00:29:37.660 idea of having a system that we all know and 00:29:37.660 --> 00:29:39.740 we're all used to and that we maybe don't question 00:29:39.740 --> 00:29:44.099 so much to then say, okay, let me reimagine the 00:29:44.099 --> 00:29:47.789 system in a way where I can, you know, maybe 00:29:47.789 --> 00:29:49.750 get rid of things that i just don't agree with 00:29:49.750 --> 00:29:52.250 like what would you say were the like main pillars 00:29:52.250 --> 00:29:53.970 you know you talk about not having a bin you 00:29:53.970 --> 00:29:56.230 know i mean that is a that is a very simple kind 00:29:56.230 --> 00:29:59.170 of pillar that you'll sort of establish but then 00:29:59.170 --> 00:30:01.950 you know that involves a lot of different processes 00:30:01.950 --> 00:30:04.069 like you say you know okay if i have if i mill 00:30:04.069 --> 00:30:06.210 flour i have the brand and just keeps going it 00:30:06.210 --> 00:30:08.470 just keeps cascading down you know what would 00:30:08.470 --> 00:30:11.559 you say were the sort of like main pillars when 00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:13.640 you when you started this project that you said 00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:15.599 all right that's that's what i want to tackle 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:19.039 first i might subvert this question a tiny bit 00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:22.480 just to say there are pillars that i've recognized 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:29.099 as essential to um to forging a new system a 00:30:29.099 --> 00:30:33.319 new innovation significantly imagination creativity 00:30:35.309 --> 00:30:38.750 is a fundamental pillar in this in this architecture 00:30:38.750 --> 00:30:45.849 there is a an observation of um psychology is 00:30:45.849 --> 00:30:49.789 significant because if you don't understand psychology 00:30:50.910 --> 00:30:54.410 How can you present a new thing, a new innovation, 00:30:54.529 --> 00:30:56.849 a new system, something that people are not familiar 00:30:56.849 --> 00:30:59.769 with? How can you present that to them without 00:30:59.769 --> 00:31:03.329 understanding their reaction, which is a psychology? 00:31:03.769 --> 00:31:08.210 And so I've learned so much about psychology 00:31:08.210 --> 00:31:12.569 in the 11 years of Silo. And it is fundamentally 00:31:12.569 --> 00:31:18.940 the thing that I now consider my value. as that 00:31:18.940 --> 00:31:22.019 understanding. It's like, now if I open a restaurant, 00:31:22.259 --> 00:31:25.200 the first thing I think about is the psychology. 00:31:25.380 --> 00:31:29.119 And that is just not something to be sniffed 00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:33.700 at. So to give you an example, waste is ugly. 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:37.859 Waste is smelly. Waste is not attractive. How 00:31:37.859 --> 00:31:41.339 do you attract people to come into a restaurant 00:31:41.339 --> 00:31:44.559 that has an association with a negative aspect? 00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.019 That is something you have to think about psychologically. 00:31:48.460 --> 00:31:51.259 You start to unpack it and then realize, okay, 00:31:51.500 --> 00:31:54.460 well, people like attractive things. And so you 00:31:54.460 --> 00:31:58.019 then make everything attractive or delicious 00:31:58.019 --> 00:32:01.779 or smell good or you present it. You tap into 00:32:01.779 --> 00:32:05.660 the psyche and you make people excited or turned 00:32:05.660 --> 00:32:08.500 on in one way or another. And the way I've attempted 00:32:08.500 --> 00:32:14.400 that through Silo's heritage is creativity. Waste 00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:19.519 is best approached with creativity. You know, 00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:22.900 so creative industries love silo or let's just 00:32:22.900 --> 00:32:26.539 strip it back. Creative people love silo because 00:32:26.539 --> 00:32:30.839 it's just endlessly, you know, it is the bounty 00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:35.769 is endless. there is so much waste in the world 00:32:35.769 --> 00:32:39.269 that has this basically free there's a free resource 00:32:39.269 --> 00:32:41.549 a free material that you could just spend the 00:32:41.549 --> 00:32:44.069 rest of your life just being creative with you 00:32:44.069 --> 00:32:45.809 know there's just waste everywhere in the world 00:32:45.809 --> 00:32:51.049 and that uh you know understanding is just this 00:32:51.049 --> 00:32:55.130 business saving skill uh that that i've had to 00:32:55.130 --> 00:32:58.500 acquire to survive And understanding the psychology 00:32:58.500 --> 00:33:02.599 of the team. I was an awful leader, awful, awful 00:33:02.599 --> 00:33:05.599 leader at the beginning. And then you start to 00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:09.160 become self -aware and you start to understand 00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:12.559 things through different eyes. So psychology 00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:16.119 was a very significant pillar in the architecture 00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:20.140 of Silo. And understanding from a very different 00:33:20.140 --> 00:33:24.569 point of view, what are we doing? And why are 00:33:24.569 --> 00:33:27.950 we doing it? Like, what is this? And just being 00:33:27.950 --> 00:33:32.750 really clear, our mission on a practical level 00:33:32.750 --> 00:33:36.609 is to avoid a general waste bin, but to do it 00:33:36.609 --> 00:33:39.569 in a way that is delicious and sexy and exciting 00:33:39.569 --> 00:33:42.269 and constantly innovative. But then ultimately, 00:33:42.410 --> 00:33:45.769 what is beyond that? Why are we not having a 00:33:45.769 --> 00:33:48.849 bin? What does it mean to not have a bin? And 00:33:48.849 --> 00:33:53.609 ultimately, the path goes... deep and long but 00:33:53.609 --> 00:33:56.809 you find yourself in nature because ultimately 00:33:56.809 --> 00:34:01.849 that is what zero waste is zero waste is nature 00:34:01.849 --> 00:34:06.450 and so what i mean by that is that there is no 00:34:06.450 --> 00:34:08.809 bin in the jungle that's very interesting like 00:34:08.809 --> 00:34:12.190 the psychology aspect it brings me to memory 00:34:12.190 --> 00:34:15.440 like Before I went to Japan for the first time, 00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:17.460 people would tell me, there are no bins in Japan, 00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:19.659 there are no trash bins. And I, how there are 00:34:19.659 --> 00:34:21.179 no trash bins? No, no, there are no trash bins 00:34:21.179 --> 00:34:22.900 in the street. And I was like, that's impossible. 00:34:23.420 --> 00:34:25.239 And I remember going there and in fact, there 00:34:25.239 --> 00:34:28.019 is just like, maybe in the outsides of the subway 00:34:28.019 --> 00:34:30.059 station and you see everybody using that individual 00:34:30.059 --> 00:34:32.800 bin, everybody taking their own trash and taking 00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:35.519 it with them. And that's already ingrained, like 00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:38.559 hardwired into their culture. That's the way 00:34:38.559 --> 00:34:41.800 it works there. That's the way it is. And I think, 00:34:41.800 --> 00:34:45.079 like, also with, for example, with the way we 00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:47.539 eat, for example, the sugar consumption, that 00:34:47.539 --> 00:34:49.500 is something that is everywhere, or these kind 00:34:49.500 --> 00:34:53.099 of things that you have to first understand the 00:34:53.099 --> 00:34:56.699 system and then find a way to hack it somewhat, 00:34:56.920 --> 00:35:01.579 to go around it and change your mindset. And 00:35:01.579 --> 00:35:04.429 maybe the most difficult thing is about... communicating 00:35:04.429 --> 00:35:09.050 it, letting others know what you just did or 00:35:09.050 --> 00:35:13.849 what's actually going on. I had a last question, 00:35:13.949 --> 00:35:17.380 then we want to go to... to our section of a 00:35:17.380 --> 00:35:20.719 section where we challenge a peculiar myth with 00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:23.539 you. Every time people talk about zero waste 00:35:23.539 --> 00:35:26.039 with us, we always mention you and Matt Orlando 00:35:26.039 --> 00:35:30.760 for us. These are like references to watch. If 00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:33.119 you had to name three others that are maybe lesser 00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:35.579 known, it can be in the food industry or outside. 00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:41.280 What are your recommended reads or artists or 00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:45.280 chefs or whatever? Well, there's some great people. 00:35:45.739 --> 00:35:48.900 doing some great work in the industry um george 00:35:48.900 --> 00:35:52.760 and laura at sem sem is in lisbon so they both 00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:55.800 worked at silo so i'm obviously biased but um 00:35:55.800 --> 00:36:00.179 what i love about george at sem is that he was 00:36:00.179 --> 00:36:04.239 adamant that he wasn't just gonna do silo food 00:36:04.239 --> 00:36:06.699 you know a different slightly different version 00:36:06.699 --> 00:36:09.880 of silo food because When they opened SEM, their 00:36:09.880 --> 00:36:13.280 intention was a very similar intention, you know, 00:36:13.300 --> 00:36:16.719 to not destroy the environment, to build a restaurant 00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:20.659 that is very sensitive to the hand that feeds 00:36:20.659 --> 00:36:24.880 it. But then from a kind of an aesthetic or creative 00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:28.239 point of view, he was determined to forge his 00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:32.340 own unique kind of style of cooking. And I loved 00:36:32.340 --> 00:36:34.860 that about him, that he didn't want to just... 00:36:35.369 --> 00:36:38.969 you know, recycle silo food. And so he's gone 00:36:38.969 --> 00:36:43.329 down the very long path. When anyone forges their 00:36:43.329 --> 00:36:46.650 own, you know, unique cuisine, it takes a long, 00:36:46.769 --> 00:36:49.929 long time, long time. You know, most chefs find 00:36:49.929 --> 00:36:52.510 success with doing very similar dishes to the 00:36:52.510 --> 00:36:55.730 ones they've done in their respective kitchens. 00:36:55.929 --> 00:36:59.230 But to create an entirely new style of cooking 00:36:59.230 --> 00:37:03.860 is a long, winding road. But he's... one of these 00:37:03.860 --> 00:37:07.260 incredible crazed individuals that is on that 00:37:07.260 --> 00:37:09.960 path and you know he's definitely one to watch 00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:14.119 and in terms of integrity i can't speak more 00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:16.980 highly about anyone than than george and laura 00:37:16.980 --> 00:37:20.800 sem in terms of integrity within this space and 00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:23.380 you know we've mentioned matt but matt is one 00:37:23.380 --> 00:37:28.280 of my dearest friends in the industry um there's 00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:31.219 there's no one matt is the king for sure Actually, 00:37:31.219 --> 00:37:34.039 I would have another final question. If you're 00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:39.000 not pressed for time, Douglas, I once read a 00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:42.480 really interesting book about permaculture. It's 00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:45.699 called Earth Care Manual. And it was purely, 00:37:45.900 --> 00:37:48.739 you know, it was very like horticultural and 00:37:48.739 --> 00:37:50.780 agricultural, but there were aspects in it that 00:37:50.780 --> 00:37:53.460 I found very interesting. I sort of thought were 00:37:53.460 --> 00:37:56.519 maybe interesting to reflect on talking about 00:37:56.519 --> 00:37:58.760 sustainability in restaurants. And one aspect 00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:00.260 that I found very interesting where there's sort 00:38:00.260 --> 00:38:02.260 of like there were a couple of diagrams showcasing 00:38:02.260 --> 00:38:04.719 different garden setups, very like homestead 00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:07.719 kind of diagrams. And one part of it was the 00:38:07.719 --> 00:38:11.460 human interference needed, saying that sort of 00:38:11.460 --> 00:38:15.320 like less human, like the less human interference 00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:18.809 needed, the more sustainable. right and i i thought 00:38:18.809 --> 00:38:20.769 that like wow that's really interesting because 00:38:20.769 --> 00:38:22.269 you know you see all these kitchens that you 00:38:22.269 --> 00:38:24.150 know they say they're sustainable they have a 00:38:24.150 --> 00:38:26.809 garden they you know get a green star slapped 00:38:26.809 --> 00:38:29.969 on them but there's you know 25 30 stagia is 00:38:29.969 --> 00:38:33.010 working 15 hours a day and i always thought that 00:38:33.010 --> 00:38:36.769 that was a really like this discrepancy between 00:38:36.769 --> 00:38:39.550 the two the outer sort of like image and what's 00:38:39.550 --> 00:38:41.130 going on inside and then also you know obviously 00:38:41.130 --> 00:38:44.400 waste but i thought that this human aspect of 00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:46.139 the sustainability aspect of a restaurant was 00:38:46.139 --> 00:38:48.519 really interesting is that something that like 00:38:48.519 --> 00:38:51.099 you know like resonates with you that you thought 00:38:51.099 --> 00:38:53.639 about or something that you kind of approached 00:38:53.639 --> 00:38:55.960 in silo in a different way thinking about the 00:38:55.960 --> 00:38:59.119 sustainability of a restaurant it's a great question 00:38:59.119 --> 00:39:06.809 um uh i was A terrible leader at the beginning 00:39:06.809 --> 00:39:10.449 and had this, you know, I'm from a working class 00:39:10.449 --> 00:39:14.170 background and I work hard and, you know, life's 00:39:14.170 --> 00:39:18.550 hard sort of mindset, you know, and worked in 00:39:18.550 --> 00:39:21.969 horrendous, horrendous, horrendous kitchens with 00:39:21.969 --> 00:39:26.289 so much negative energy and violence. And that 00:39:26.289 --> 00:39:30.550 was what I believed had to be done to change 00:39:30.550 --> 00:39:32.869 the world. And that was the kind of the words 00:39:32.869 --> 00:39:39.119 that I slapped on. as an excuse to being very 00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:43.400 strict and working long hours. The human sustainability 00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:47.159 scales of balance were like this, were way out 00:39:47.159 --> 00:39:49.659 of line. But I was like, well, this is how you 00:39:49.659 --> 00:39:54.000 move the industry forward. This is how we need 00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:57.659 to work. We need to work harder. And it was this 00:39:57.659 --> 00:40:02.099 mindset that I was sure was the case. But then... 00:40:03.210 --> 00:40:06.829 a bunch of people called bullshit along the way. 00:40:06.929 --> 00:40:11.489 And most notably, the current Silo's sort of 00:40:11.489 --> 00:40:14.789 executive chef, Will Stoyle. So Will had only 00:40:14.789 --> 00:40:18.469 worked in Le Manoir and Helen de Rose. So he 00:40:18.469 --> 00:40:22.369 was as, you know, higher pedigree as any chef 00:40:22.369 --> 00:40:26.130 you could imagine in terms of that kind of environment, 00:40:26.469 --> 00:40:30.150 you know, high standards, long hours, high stakes, 00:40:30.269 --> 00:40:33.980 high pressure. And of all the people that I wouldn't 00:40:33.980 --> 00:40:36.699 have expected to drive this forward, it would 00:40:36.699 --> 00:40:41.920 have been Will. And Will has doggedly proved 00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:47.679 to me and to everybody that we can all work sustainably 00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:54.940 in terms of hours and pay and well -being. He 00:40:54.940 --> 00:40:58.860 has been the innovator for human sustainability, 00:40:58.860 --> 00:41:04.050 and he was leading Silo for the last... uh four 00:41:04.050 --> 00:41:08.389 years um he became head chef after a year and 00:41:08.389 --> 00:41:11.329 then we had another head chef so he became exec 00:41:11.329 --> 00:41:14.449 chef and so will was the one that i want to credit 00:41:14.449 --> 00:41:18.610 um because i didn't see it i didn't see that 00:41:18.610 --> 00:41:21.030 we could do it i just didn't think about it you 00:41:21.030 --> 00:41:22.849 know we all have we all bring different things 00:41:22.849 --> 00:41:26.110 to the table you know i'm i'm a i'm a very flawed 00:41:26.110 --> 00:41:30.369 individual and i can only see i see some some 00:41:30.369 --> 00:41:32.590 good ideas and some unique sort of visions of 00:41:32.590 --> 00:41:35.190 the future but then i can't see a lot of other 00:41:35.190 --> 00:41:38.449 stuff and i need people to to see it for me and 00:41:38.449 --> 00:41:41.909 will has done a magnificent job of finding balance 00:41:41.909 --> 00:41:45.789 and an equilibrium and i think just more interestingly 00:41:45.789 --> 00:41:49.010 to extrapolate the challenges because there's 00:41:49.010 --> 00:41:51.829 people watching this podcast i'm thinking well 00:41:51.829 --> 00:41:55.809 you know what gives because If I'm spending all 00:41:55.809 --> 00:41:59.730 this time doing the right thing and upcycling 00:41:59.730 --> 00:42:03.590 scraps, that takes time. Whether it's making 00:42:03.590 --> 00:42:06.369 a miso from potato skins or making a buttermilk 00:42:06.369 --> 00:42:09.130 garum or whatever it is that it would have been 00:42:09.130 --> 00:42:11.849 quicker to throw away. Those labor costs are 00:42:11.849 --> 00:42:15.769 going up. How do I then afford to pay them more 00:42:15.769 --> 00:42:19.190 to do less when they're needing to do more to 00:42:19.190 --> 00:42:23.199 fulfill this kind of environmental piece? you 00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:27.679 know, where in this economic structure do you 00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:32.019 find equilibrium? Like it doesn't, right? And 00:42:32.019 --> 00:42:35.519 so that's the challenging reverse architecture 00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:38.579 that we need to design. And that is a very challenging 00:42:38.579 --> 00:42:41.039 piece because, and another thing I want to say, 00:42:41.159 --> 00:42:44.219 this is important. People speak to me as if like, 00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:47.980 because Silo doesn't have a bin, that that's... 00:42:48.230 --> 00:42:51.489 bad reflection on them who do have a bin. Now, 00:42:51.530 --> 00:42:53.670 I just want to state that I don't expect anyone 00:42:53.670 --> 00:42:56.150 else to do what we do. In fact, I implore you 00:42:56.150 --> 00:42:59.750 not to because the struggle and the stress and 00:42:59.750 --> 00:43:05.309 the toll it will pay on you is so severe that 00:43:05.309 --> 00:43:08.409 I don't wish it on anyone. What I've gone through, 00:43:08.489 --> 00:43:11.730 the suffering, has been so great that I would 00:43:11.730 --> 00:43:16.199 not ask anyone or suggest that of anyone. And 00:43:16.199 --> 00:43:20.619 this industry is so hard. We all know how narrow 00:43:20.619 --> 00:43:24.320 these margins are. It's just such a difficult 00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:27.920 industry just to survive in economically, right? 00:43:28.019 --> 00:43:30.760 And to then just slap on all this pressure from 00:43:30.760 --> 00:43:34.159 an environmental doctrine, no judgment from me, 00:43:34.260 --> 00:43:38.380 none at all. It is hard, really hard. And so 00:43:38.380 --> 00:43:42.460 I just want to point that out because, you know, 00:43:42.500 --> 00:43:45.369 it's a, yeah. But yeah, to try to go back to 00:43:45.369 --> 00:43:48.630 this kind of balance within the economic structure, 00:43:48.750 --> 00:43:51.429 it's very, very difficult. And the way we managed, 00:43:51.690 --> 00:43:55.409 you strip away choice, but then that's a difficult 00:43:55.409 --> 00:43:58.570 one. You strip away, you know, we went to tasting 00:43:58.570 --> 00:44:02.409 menu only, which made things a lot better, but 00:44:02.409 --> 00:44:07.510 then ultimately it has its challenges. And you 00:44:07.510 --> 00:44:10.730 reduce the amount going on the plate. You know, 00:44:10.769 --> 00:44:12.909 there are all these ways of tinkering with the 00:44:12.909 --> 00:44:15.590 system to try and find this sort of harmony. 00:44:15.809 --> 00:44:18.150 You know, if you're spending all this extra time 00:44:18.150 --> 00:44:22.329 turning pumpkin skins into marmalade, then what 00:44:22.329 --> 00:44:25.570 are you taking away from the system? Something 00:44:25.570 --> 00:44:27.909 else that you were buying in that cost money, 00:44:28.070 --> 00:44:31.630 right? You bought in some caviar and you're making 00:44:31.630 --> 00:44:37.289 a caviar sauce and you're... You're saving the 00:44:37.289 --> 00:44:40.670 money on the caviar. You're introducing a surplus 00:44:40.670 --> 00:44:43.570 ingredient that has a high level of innovation, 00:44:43.929 --> 00:44:48.530 is as delicious as caviar. And side note, there 00:44:48.530 --> 00:44:52.510 are hundreds, not dozens, hundreds of things 00:44:52.510 --> 00:44:56.829 that are more delicious than caviar made from 00:44:56.829 --> 00:45:00.699 scraps. That is a fact. And yeah, and so you 00:45:00.699 --> 00:45:03.739 replace the caviar with a surplus thing and you 00:45:03.739 --> 00:45:05.920 might say, oh, well, your guests are going to 00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:08.219 feel shortchanged. You're like, no, no, no, I 00:45:08.219 --> 00:45:12.820 can guarantee this. The psychology of a guest 00:45:12.820 --> 00:45:16.780 receiving something innovative, delicious, brilliant, 00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:22.320 it will absolutely make that guest feel equally 00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:26.800 or greater the level of joy than that caviar. 00:45:27.559 --> 00:45:30.420 Hey Phil, have you subscribed to our newsletter 00:45:30.420 --> 00:45:33.480 yet? We have a newsletter? What's a newsletter 00:45:33.480 --> 00:45:36.679 about, Eric? Every month we share one cool thing 00:45:36.679 --> 00:45:39.179 from the world of food and restaurants and occasionally 00:45:39.179 --> 00:45:42.900 a recipe we swore we'd never share. Like your 00:45:42.900 --> 00:45:46.000 secret boiled egg lemon tart recipe. But Eric, 00:45:46.219 --> 00:45:49.699 that was my grandma's secret recipe. Not anymore. 00:45:50.099 --> 00:45:53.119 Subscribe to our newsletter where we unveil all 00:45:53.119 --> 00:45:59.610 of Phil's grandmother's secrets. I remember one 00:45:59.610 --> 00:46:01.349 of the last restaurants I was working with, I 00:46:01.349 --> 00:46:03.489 was discussing with the team to introduce a dish 00:46:03.489 --> 00:46:06.170 where we would serve, inspired by Silo, like 00:46:06.170 --> 00:46:08.849 a broccoli stem. And I remember that that was, 00:46:08.889 --> 00:46:12.969 on one side, something that it tells a story 00:46:12.969 --> 00:46:17.010 in itself. It's like you see it and you understand 00:46:17.010 --> 00:46:20.070 something. Yet at the same time, the decision 00:46:20.070 --> 00:46:23.050 was... not to do it because nobody would get 00:46:23.050 --> 00:46:26.690 it. And even people, guests would go mad if you 00:46:26.690 --> 00:46:28.849 put them like a broccoli stand. What are you 00:46:28.849 --> 00:46:30.769 doing? You know, like, and at the end it was, 00:46:30.789 --> 00:46:33.210 it was too risky. So we didn't went that way. 00:46:33.250 --> 00:46:35.369 That's again, what I'm talking about that everybody 00:46:35.369 --> 00:46:37.690 wants to say zero waste and sustainable, but 00:46:37.690 --> 00:46:41.170 not everybody is willing to actually. do it. 00:46:41.230 --> 00:46:44.250 But I wanted to ask you about, you already mentioned 00:46:44.250 --> 00:46:48.550 some of the people in your team and how you interact 00:46:48.550 --> 00:46:51.010 with each other. But what about the creative 00:46:51.010 --> 00:46:55.269 process, creating these dishes? How was that 00:46:55.269 --> 00:46:57.469 at Silo? How would you operate on that matter? 00:46:57.670 --> 00:46:59.570 It's a great question, Eric, and I'm glad you 00:46:59.570 --> 00:47:02.670 asked it. And just before I answer it, I want 00:47:02.670 --> 00:47:05.210 to go back to your broccoli stem. Everything 00:47:05.210 --> 00:47:10.920 is about how you present it. It's like if you're 00:47:10.920 --> 00:47:15.079 going to chat someone up at a bar, right? It's 00:47:15.079 --> 00:47:20.119 not what you say, it's how you say it. It's the 00:47:20.119 --> 00:47:22.760 conviction, it's the body language, it's the 00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:27.300 eyes, it's the way. This is the psychology of 00:47:27.300 --> 00:47:30.460 all of this coming out again. So if you go to 00:47:30.460 --> 00:47:34.320 a table, you know, with a kind of... hunchback 00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:37.539 and you're kind of nervous and you're stammering. 00:47:38.360 --> 00:47:44.440 The guest is already mistrusting the quality 00:47:44.440 --> 00:47:48.699 because this is just the nature of how we perceive 00:47:48.699 --> 00:47:52.099 a lack of confidence or a lack of conviction. 00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:56.500 And so if you, with a broccoli stem, walk to 00:47:56.500 --> 00:47:59.320 the table, the meticulously prepared broccoli 00:47:59.320 --> 00:48:03.000 stem that is itself a work of art, clearly, And 00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:05.300 you put it down with confidence and you say with 00:48:05.300 --> 00:48:09.460 a big sort of big puffed chest, eye contact and 00:48:09.460 --> 00:48:11.659 say, this is an innovation that blah, blah, blah, 00:48:11.659 --> 00:48:14.739 blah, blah. And you really lean into that. Then 00:48:14.739 --> 00:48:17.519 all of a sudden the guests, and I can guarantee 00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:21.079 this, will be mesmerized. Mesmerized. They'll 00:48:21.079 --> 00:48:24.679 be like, this is a piece of art. And it's just 00:48:24.679 --> 00:48:29.199 how you do it. Again, it's not about caviar or 00:48:29.199 --> 00:48:32.900 broccoli stem. It's how you present it. And that, 00:48:33.019 --> 00:48:38.000 I hope that stays with you and anyone listening 00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:40.900 because that's really true. And I can really 00:48:40.900 --> 00:48:43.519 guarantee that. And regarding the theme, the 00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:46.679 creative process dynamics of it. The creative 00:48:46.679 --> 00:48:50.519 process is a reverse engineering. It's like from 00:48:50.519 --> 00:48:53.909 the very, very, very. beginning and so silo is 00:48:53.909 --> 00:48:57.730 this incredible back to front system you know 00:48:57.730 --> 00:48:59.969 the bin is at the end of the line right the bin 00:48:59.969 --> 00:49:02.889 is at the end of every materials waste materials 00:49:02.889 --> 00:49:08.150 life and so by taking that away we're kind of 00:49:08.150 --> 00:49:10.909 going back to nature because that's where there 00:49:10.909 --> 00:49:13.309 is no bin and so that's where we're designing 00:49:13.309 --> 00:49:17.440 from and everyone it sounds maybe lofty to say 00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:19.559 that chefs are designers of course we are of 00:49:19.559 --> 00:49:21.500 course if you're designing a dish you're a designer 00:49:21.500 --> 00:49:26.019 and so where does that design manifest where 00:49:26.019 --> 00:49:29.320 is it coming from what is its function purpose 00:49:29.320 --> 00:49:32.840 what is its variables and so if you're thinking 00:49:32.840 --> 00:49:36.480 from the point of nature the environment you 00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:40.760 know equanimity then you understand that this 00:49:40.760 --> 00:49:43.980 farm is saying this. This farm is saying that 00:49:43.980 --> 00:49:47.139 there is an abundance of pumpkin. Okay, so we're 00:49:47.139 --> 00:49:49.659 designing pumpkin onto the menu. You know, you 00:49:49.659 --> 00:49:51.440 don't want to create waste. You're like, okay, 00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:54.059 what about the pumpkin guts? What about the pumpkin 00:49:54.059 --> 00:49:58.960 skin? And you have an intention to minimize waste. 00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:02.199 And so you're like innovating and you're designing 00:50:02.199 --> 00:50:04.940 ultimately from nature, but then you're designing 00:50:04.940 --> 00:50:09.440 from an intention. And then... Finding ways of 00:50:09.440 --> 00:50:13.199 creating that excellence, always, always, always 00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:16.599 excellence. And then you eventually, because 00:50:16.599 --> 00:50:20.079 it is a harder pursuit to find excellence in 00:50:20.079 --> 00:50:23.409 the unknown. You know, we don't know that pumpkin 00:50:23.409 --> 00:50:27.010 guts can be excellent, do we? Until you discover 00:50:27.010 --> 00:50:32.349 that pumpkin gut exo sauce where, you know, you've 00:50:32.349 --> 00:50:35.150 put the pumpkin guts through a process of sacrification 00:50:35.150 --> 00:50:37.050 and then you've introduced all these kind of 00:50:37.050 --> 00:50:40.550 delicious fats and spices and you're layering 00:50:40.550 --> 00:50:43.809 flavor into these pumpkin guts. And then, you 00:50:43.809 --> 00:50:46.409 know, you're dressing this smoked pumpkin with 00:50:46.409 --> 00:50:48.530 that and then you've got this pumpkin skin marmalade 00:50:48.530 --> 00:50:50.780 and, you know, it's a... So the creative process 00:50:50.780 --> 00:50:54.119 is a response to the intention, to the environment, 00:50:54.260 --> 00:50:58.079 to the circumstances of our kitchen. You know, 00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:01.739 if something is a mounting that has no purpose, 00:51:01.960 --> 00:51:05.300 pathway, we need to create that. And so that's 00:51:05.300 --> 00:51:08.360 our intention is to close that loop, to design 00:51:08.360 --> 00:51:11.840 a system with no loose ends. And so that's the 00:51:11.840 --> 00:51:14.300 creative process. And that can be anyone. That's 00:51:14.300 --> 00:51:19.679 not a Doug thing. Will, Moon, Gabby, the whole 00:51:19.679 --> 00:51:23.400 team are part of that closed -loop system, and 00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:26.340 we're all trying to innovate and question how 00:51:26.340 --> 00:51:29.739 can we do everything better at every stage. It's 00:51:29.739 --> 00:51:31.920 just having that clear vision of a closed -loop 00:51:31.920 --> 00:51:36.269 system and being it. That's amazing. Super interesting. 00:51:36.389 --> 00:51:38.630 I had a silly question because we were asking 00:51:38.630 --> 00:51:41.530 this through our stories and nobody could give 00:51:41.530 --> 00:51:44.690 us a nice answer. And also between ourselves, 00:51:45.050 --> 00:51:47.329 like what do you recommend doing with carrot 00:51:47.329 --> 00:51:51.110 greens? Like, because we heard like, yeah, to 00:51:51.110 --> 00:51:53.869 the stock, but it makes it bitter making a pesto. 00:51:54.010 --> 00:51:56.809 And yeah, but it's also like super grassy and 00:51:56.809 --> 00:52:00.510 herbal and like in a bad way. Like what, what 00:52:00.510 --> 00:52:03.110 would you recommend with that one? Okay. So. 00:52:03.929 --> 00:52:07.869 What I'm going to introduce is the mindset to 00:52:07.869 --> 00:52:11.690 upcycle anything, whether that's an edible food 00:52:11.690 --> 00:52:16.429 scrap like carrot tops or an empty glass bottle 00:52:16.429 --> 00:52:20.349 into a plate or whatever. The mindset is this. 00:52:21.010 --> 00:52:26.309 What does the ingredient want to become? And 00:52:26.309 --> 00:52:29.110 that might sound like really like, what do you 00:52:29.110 --> 00:52:35.650 mean? If you're upcycling a carrot top, what 00:52:35.650 --> 00:52:39.349 does it want to become? It's not very fragrant. 00:52:39.550 --> 00:52:44.769 It doesn't have a herbaceous flavor that's going 00:52:44.769 --> 00:52:48.650 to make an amazing oil. If you blend... carrot 00:52:48.650 --> 00:52:51.690 tops into an oil, like you might blend, I don't 00:52:51.690 --> 00:52:53.929 know, marigold into an oil. You know, you get 00:52:53.929 --> 00:52:56.409 this incredible marigold perfume, right? And 00:52:56.409 --> 00:52:58.849 the marigold oil makes sense. And that's a logical 00:52:58.849 --> 00:53:01.590 thing to do with marigold. But carrot tops, no. 00:53:01.809 --> 00:53:05.260 It does not want to become a flavoured oil. However, 00:53:05.440 --> 00:53:08.179 it does impart a nice green color. And if that 00:53:08.179 --> 00:53:10.239 means something to you, maybe that is a path. 00:53:10.739 --> 00:53:15.800 Maybe you can layer flavors into an oil that 00:53:15.800 --> 00:53:18.579 you want to be green. Maybe you're coming from 00:53:18.579 --> 00:53:21.420 a nutritional point of view and you want the 00:53:21.420 --> 00:53:24.280 nutrition of the carrot tops. Therefore, maybe 00:53:24.280 --> 00:53:26.880 if you want to absorb lots of nutrients, blend 00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:30.769 it into a smoothie. And so you see how the answers 00:53:30.769 --> 00:53:33.269 start to reveal themselves when you ask what 00:53:33.269 --> 00:53:38.070 it wants and doesn't want to become. And you 00:53:38.070 --> 00:53:41.510 understand maybe when you're milling flour and 00:53:41.510 --> 00:53:44.969 you've got bran, the bran is a dense, oily, fibrous 00:53:44.969 --> 00:53:49.710 material in which it doesn't want to become something 00:53:49.710 --> 00:53:53.289 light and fluffy because it's oily and dense 00:53:53.289 --> 00:53:55.489 and fibrous, which is the opposite, right? So 00:53:55.489 --> 00:53:59.630 you think, right, what? might bran want to become 00:53:59.630 --> 00:54:03.929 in the pathway of dense oily you know textured 00:54:03.929 --> 00:54:08.389 and you then turn it into a wafer into a biscuit 00:54:08.389 --> 00:54:12.250 and so you start to the answer reveals itself 00:54:12.250 --> 00:54:17.230 at the end of a conversation in which you know 00:54:17.230 --> 00:54:19.929 you're understanding its needs its wants and 00:54:19.929 --> 00:54:23.099 so you just shift your mindset and Carrot tops 00:54:23.099 --> 00:54:25.579 don't make a great pesto. If you ever do a side 00:54:25.579 --> 00:54:28.880 by side, it's not a bad pesto. I would recommend 00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:31.619 blanching it and introducing loads of confit 00:54:31.619 --> 00:54:34.519 garlic, but it is still not as good as a basil 00:54:34.519 --> 00:54:39.559 pesto. It just isn't. And so when you introduce 00:54:39.559 --> 00:54:43.760 a large mass of a flavorless thing, you need 00:54:43.760 --> 00:54:47.760 to remember that. In the absence of flavor, you 00:54:47.760 --> 00:54:51.000 need to introduce enormous injections of flavor. 00:54:51.159 --> 00:54:56.079 Again, it's this balancing act. If you're introducing 00:54:56.079 --> 00:55:00.539 flavor, what is an enormous amount of flavor? 00:55:00.739 --> 00:55:07.760 Things like chili, garlic. You've extrapolated 00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:12.260 what it isn't, and then you realize what it needs. 00:55:12.889 --> 00:55:14.929 to become something great and then you start 00:55:14.929 --> 00:55:19.409 to layer in these different um aspects of um 00:55:19.409 --> 00:55:23.269 you know intense flavor whether that's anchovies 00:55:23.269 --> 00:55:25.869 whether that's chilies you know very impactful 00:55:25.869 --> 00:55:29.130 intense flavors that then build flavor on something 00:55:29.130 --> 00:55:32.829 that doesn't have much flavor and from different 00:55:33.420 --> 00:55:36.079 areas of the industry there are different reasons 00:55:36.079 --> 00:55:39.519 why you might use it and in a fine dining kitchen 00:55:39.519 --> 00:55:42.000 there are not that many uses of carrot tops but 00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:46.780 in a different section maybe there's a drink 00:55:46.780 --> 00:55:49.239 that wants to be green on the bar that makes 00:55:49.239 --> 00:55:51.360 sense to then move it into that direction or 00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:53.579 from a chef's nutritional point of view maybe 00:55:53.579 --> 00:55:56.280 you make staff smoothies so you know you start 00:55:56.280 --> 00:56:02.300 to reveal something's purpose when you think 00:56:02.679 --> 00:56:06.679 In that way. Well, thank you so much. And a great 00:56:06.679 --> 00:56:17.219 pleasure. Thank you. Thank you both. Hi, everyone. 00:56:17.619 --> 00:56:21.659 This is our favorite section. Go fact yourself. 00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:30.800 You have a cooking myth that you would love to 00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:34.179 debunk, Douglas, off the top of your head. Oh, 00:56:34.179 --> 00:56:39.320 yeah, I do. Oh, fantastic. I must not be the 00:56:39.320 --> 00:56:43.139 only one to debunk this. It must be in the minds 00:56:43.139 --> 00:56:46.559 of hundreds and thousands of chefs. Every time 00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:49.800 a stock is made and you chuck in all these expensive 00:56:49.800 --> 00:56:52.199 ingredients like, you know, a bunch of herbs, 00:56:52.360 --> 00:56:54.280 a bunch of like garlic and all these different 00:56:54.280 --> 00:56:57.699 things. at the beginning, and then all of those 00:56:57.699 --> 00:57:01.480 precious volatiles and nuance just disappears. 00:57:01.900 --> 00:57:04.900 Now, building a stock, the base of a liquid, 00:57:05.179 --> 00:57:07.760 you know that you want certain aspects. Maybe 00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:09.880 you want the gelatin, maybe you want sweetness, 00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:14.460 so you add bones and carrots to build those building 00:57:14.460 --> 00:57:18.449 blocks. of of texture and of certain qualities 00:57:18.449 --> 00:57:22.349 right but then just like introducing uh your 00:57:22.349 --> 00:57:26.829 bouquet garni you know you're at the end give 00:57:26.829 --> 00:57:29.809 it like there's a 20 minute window in which you 00:57:29.809 --> 00:57:32.130 know you want to finish this sauce and you introduce 00:57:32.130 --> 00:57:36.010 all of those accents to that liquid that you've 00:57:36.519 --> 00:57:38.860 Typically, traditionally always instructed to 00:57:38.860 --> 00:57:40.840 add at the beginning, but you add that at the 00:57:40.840 --> 00:57:45.840 end and just let that perfume enhance. Assured 00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:50.780 infusion. Infuse at the end. And, you know, it's 00:57:50.780 --> 00:57:54.019 just the way in which it's added at the beginning 00:57:54.019 --> 00:57:56.679 and it should be added at the end is what I want 00:57:56.679 --> 00:58:00.619 to debunk. Happy to be wrong. If anyone listens 00:58:00.619 --> 00:58:02.579 to this and says, no, actually, this is why you're 00:58:02.579 --> 00:58:05.239 wrong. Happy to be wrong. Go fact yourself.