Hi, everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks,
the show where we talk about food and kitchens
from a cook's point of view. I'm Eric Clapton.
Not that one. And I'm here with Philip Seymour
Hoffman. And today we're talking about roast
beef, but just maybe not the one your grandma
made on Sundays. What's the deal with this guy?
I don't know. I don't even know the name. This
guy, Mexican baker, Noma, ex -Noma. You had like
a moment with this guy, didn't you? You had like
a little affair with him or something. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. I mean, like, I don't like the way
you made that sound, but yeah. So you're talking
about Richard Hart. Richard Hart is a baker from
the UK. He was the head baker at Tartine Bakery
in San Francisco for years. Many, many years.
That's kind of like where he made his name. Because
Tartine Bakery, anybody who knows about bread,
they revolutionized bread baking. Chad Robertson,
the founder and owner of Tartine Bakery, he wrote
an amazing book. Beautiful book. Tartine is so
good. That book is what got me into bread baking.
It's a beautiful book also about the cultivation
of sourdough and doesn't just talk about bread,
but pastries. And it focuses on... Slow fermentation,
high quality flour, high hydration dose. Yeah,
just focuses on making very delicious, but also
very wholesome, nutritional, easy to digest things,
you know? So it's a great package. And Richard
Hart was the head baker there. And then at some
point left, also not on like the best terms,
teamed up with Rene Redzepi. And Rene Redzepi
basically... Made it possible for him to open
his bakeries in Copenhagen under his own name,
Hart. H -A -R -T. While they were setting this
up, he was baking at Noma, like in the greenhouse.
Very easy peasy, you know. And then they very
quickly opened like a lot of places in Copenhagen.
Very nice bakeries. Honestly, really nice. Went
there with Xander while we were in Copenhagen
for Noma filming. I don't know where you were.
I think you missed your flight. I think that's
what happened. And then after like very short
time, like two or three years, he decided to
leave the business for some reason. Not really
sure why, what the beef was there. But basically
he went to Mexico, he moved to Mexico City with
his wife who runs the rare tea company because
he's really good friends with Gabriela Camara,
the owner of Contramar, right? Mexican celebrity
chef. Rare tea. Is that this British company
from this famous tea lady? Correct. Okay. That's
his wife. The tea lady? Yes. Okay. Yeah. I read
a book from her. Yeah. I also met her same time
that I met him. It was a bit strange people.
Honestly. Honestly. Yeah. There was this big
controversy when they opened the bakeries in
Copenhagen. Richard Hart posted this photo. on
his instagram of him and her in the bathroom
like basically like a selfie like pointing behind
him where you can see in the mirror behind them
that they're like naked basically like they've
just fucked in the bathroom right and he posts
this on his public like social media before that
bakery opens and he's like oh this is one way
to like inaugurate this place or like whatever
And I remember seeing that and I was like, I'm
sorry, but I think that's fucking disgusting.
But what was that? Like the bakery's bathroom?
Yes. Okay. That the public is going to use after
that, right? Like it's like before opening, it's
kind of like, hey, if you want to come to my
bakery and use the bathroom here, just so you
know, I fucked my girlfriend in this bathroom.
And here's a photo of us. Yeah, exactly. Very
strange. Very strange. But anyway, so long story
short, you know, he moves to Mexico. He then
again teams up with yet another famous chef from
the region and opens this bakery. And mind you,
like, is this a guy with a lot of like, you know,
I mean, from personal experience, you know, this
guy, he's got a very high opinion of himself.
But it's all masked with this like, oh, you know,
well. This kind of like easygoingness, you know.
So he goes to Mexico and he's like, I'm going
to open the best bakery of the world in Mexico.
Which already is a wild statement, you know.
Like if I would, you know. I'm not against that.
I think being ambitious and having those kind
of missions at the end of the day are, you know,
like I don't see it as something bad. You know,
it's an approach, and I think it's valid if you
want to go there. I remember I heard this story
that when Ugaris was opened, like Andoni and
Danilasa and Marcel, they sat down and they had
like this preserved artichokes from the jars
and they looked at each other and they said,
we're going to make the best restaurant in the
world. You know, like, that's, you know, like,
why not? But okay. Yeah. I mean, why not? But
like, you know, the best restaurant in the world
for you, maybe, I mean, we can both agree that
Mugaritz is definitely not the best restaurant
in the world. I think everybody can agree on
that, you know, that's fine. You know, it's a
little bit weird. Like if I'm like, Oh, I'm going
to open the best restaurant in the world. It's
kind of like, no, I'm not, you know, like I'm
not, nobody's ever going to make the best in
the world to some people. It might be, you know,
But to a lot of people, it isn't. And it's never
going to taste different. Yet again, I would
never say that myself, but I don't see... It's
whatever. Yeah, I think ambition properly managed
can be a good driver. That's all I want to say.
Oh, for sure. I think ambition is great. I think
ambition is great, yeah. I think the need to
put other things down in order to put yourself
up is weird. you know like that that is kind
of the thing it's sort of like this whole thing
yeah yeah no that that would that have a problem
which brings us to the core of the of the beef
so basically he there were two interviews that
he did very shortly after opening um in one where
he made like really weird statements he was sort
of like he was basically just like oh well tacos
are basically just sandwiches you know he's kind
of like making like very weird sort of comments
about mexican food But then in another interview,
he went more out of there. He said that Mexico
doesn't really have a bread culture. The flour
is really shit. The bread's like cheaply and
industrial made. And then he went on and said
that like, oh, you know, like basically they
only have tortas and they're just these like
ugly white rolls. And people went ballistic and
still are going ballistic. Like they're really
not repenting. He will never recover from that.
You know, I can talk with some property because
I, as a wide European, even though I have Venezuelan
roots, I have a super German name, and I was
living for many years in Europe at the moment
when I went to Bolivia, okay? And it was a project
to develop Bolivian gastronomy. And you have
to be very cautious and delicate on the way you
approach such a project and the way you interact
with the local culture. Because otherwise you
will be looked like as a fucking colonizer that
came here to trade mirrors for gold to the Indians.
And you definitely don't want to be tagged like
that and you don't want to be that. You know,
like you want to, as many as you can learn from
the local culture, understand the local culture.
And if then after that, after you, you understood
it and you got the, the vibe and the flow and
the soul of the local culture, try to, to elevate
it technically, you know, like same, like what
happened here with Basque, new Basque cuisine.
They already had the French technique. So they
took the grandma's recipes and they elevate those
shepherd recipes or fisherman recipes and they
turn them into something you could serve in a
fine dining restaurant. Right. So like that,
that's the approach. But coming here and say,
I love this. These grandmothers, they don't know
how to cook. They don't know shit. Can you imagine
saying that? You know, like, you're a fucking
idiot. Basically, with all the capital letters.
Fucking idiot. You know, like, sorry. You can't
do that. And another thing I wanted to say about
that. Dude, it's fucking Mexico. You know, like,
there are different profiles across Latin America.
And I would say... Mexico is the most hardcore
audience there is. And if you don't get that,
you're a fucking idiot. You know, like, and I
know this because I follow, like, a lot of music
events. And, you know, like, the most demanding
audience is the Mexican one. Those are the ones
that will throw tomatoes at you at the stage
if you fuck it up. You know, like, so that's
why I say this guy will never recover from this,
man. Never, ever. Phil, do you recommend podcasts
to your friends? All the time. The best way of
showing friends that you care is recommending
a great podcast to listen to. I agree. If you're
listening right now, you should show your love
by recommending our show to all your best friends.
It will make them happy. It will make us happy.
PopBlock Food Talks. Tell your friends. It will
make the world a better place. Yeah, I mean,
Mexico is also such a place. I mean... It's a
place with such an insanely deep food culture,
so incredibly deep and complex and ancient, with
so much pride in their own culture also, rightfully
so, because it's amazing. Not just in food, but
in music and art and everything else. By the
way, shout out to Andy, our editor from Mexico.
dude yeah but like um and see this is the thing
right i kind of understand what he was maybe
trying to say right because it's from his point
of view he's like well look what what do i like
and what do i make i make slow fermented sourdough
bread from ancient green but to the the way that
he like said that and tried to promote what he
believes in and using terms that put something
else down in such a crude way and in such an
ignorant way i think that's just it i think this
is just what it is it's ignorant you know it's
really really ignorant it's i like something
and i believe in it and that's why everything
else is shit and that's just that's just not
the way and especially as you're saying you go
into a country which has a deep -seated seeded
culture of something you know how how many people
do you think tortas feed across mexico every
day you know from from you know blue collar workers
to you know to every everybody dude could you
imagine like going to new york and opening a
bakery and saying you know those hot dogs in
the street they're shit Yeah, those fucking bagels,
you know? Those fucking shit. No, no, no, like
hot dogs, like crappy hot dogs you get from a
street food vendor, right? Those things have
their identity, their charm, their story. Of
course. And you need to understand that if you
want to enter the New York market. You need to
understand what's behind that, what's the ecosystem
that makes that exist. Because that's your market.
It's your people. It's what gives you the money
you need to survive. It's your audience, man.
You can't fuck up with your audience. Well, we
do sometimes, I have to reckon. Absolutely. I
totally agree with you. And it's also just, it
comes from such a privileged standpoint. It's
sort of like, oh, if it's not made like this,
which takes four times the amount of time. and
some like you know great like ancient grain that
like people maybe don't have access to unless
you go to uh you know you import it or like whatever
then it's not good it's sort of like man like
bread bread is like it fucking feeds people you
know what i mean and then to call bread ugly
you know that first of all it's not ugly it's
just a different style to what you make there's
nothing wrong with it but to like talk it down
and kind of put the thing that you're making
which is like sorry but it's like so much more
expensive than everything else it's so elitist
it's it's criticizing from such a from such a
high horse point of view Hey, Phil, have you
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grandmother's secrets. You know, like this whole
shit storm that went around this, it reminds
me of two other cases. One was when Jamie Oliver
added, what added? Like chorizo and chicken wings
to a paella or something like that. Probably
chorizo, yeah. And people went bananas here in
Spain. And there was another one also, a British
chef. What did she do? She said like... I'm going
to do this version of the Bolognese that is my
own version that is just better and is with white
wine instead of red wine. And all the Italians
went crazy because, you know, like, it depends
on the grandmother if it's red wine or white
wine. You know, you didn't invent anything else
and you can't take something traditional and
deeply rooted into a culture and say you're going
to make it better with your own variation and
at the same time being so ignorant that you don't
know that that thing already exists. You know,
like... Yeah, it's very current. You have to
be very cautious when you do this kind of things.
For example, myself, it's funny, I didn't know
this guy said this about the tacos at all. These
are just sandwiches. Because in the sandwich
episode, I said something similar about the quesadillas.
I said, like, quesadillas are like sandwiches.
And some Mexicans wrote me and told me, like,
dude, I like your show, but don't ever say that
again. You know, I publicly apologize with our
Mexican audience for calling quesadillas sandwiches.
Don't you ever say that again, Eric. But at the
end of the day, you know, these are wheat tortillas
that are layered. You know, like you have layer,
layer, layer. And for me, that's what I mean
with a sandwich, right? Layer, layer, layer,
like you would sandwich something. Exactly. When
I didn't know who this guy was, but I saw this
video that I was like, okay, this is so stupid.
I heard the statement and I was like, this is
so stupid. When somebody asked him, what do you
prefer, a sandwich or a pizza? And he says, sandwich
is a pizza, man. A pizza is a sandwich. Pizza
is a sandwich, man. It's the same thing. It's
bread with cheese. It's the same thing. And I
was like, okay, there I completely disagree.
It's not the same thing. Okay, so a lasagna is
also a sandwich as well. You have wheat and meat
and wheat. That's not how it works, man. There
are some structural parameters to denominate
things in a specific way, in my opinion. Yeah,
so soup dumpling is a sandwich with soup inside
of it. Exactly. It's just really stupid. What
kind of annoys me about it, and I think also
what makes people angry about it, is that there's
a certain type of people that they will just
not budge from the shit that they're saying.
They'll just say unhinged shit like, pizza is
a sandwich. And they'll be like, no, man, no.
And if you look back at that interview, he doesn't
let the other guy talk at all. The other guy
is trying to say stuff. He's like... No, but
like, you know, you tell me. And it's like, you
know, we can have a discussion about stuff. You
know, we can talk about shit. We can like say
stupid unhinged shit. But it's like, if you start
negatively putting a food culture down, not just
any food culture, but like the culture of the
people. Fucking Mexican food culture. How dare
you, man? And on top of that, it's the country
that you moved to. right to like open your thing
in like this like thing of sort of like i'm gonna
open the best bakery in the world and i'm gonna
teach all of you like what good bread is you
know while like as if they're not the most amazing
bakeries in mexico you know like rosetta or there's
this amazing bakery in oh where was it i think
it's really close to where his bakery is it's
called brulee i think and like the pastries and
the the bread it's it's absolutely incredible
But I mean, this guy will never forget what he
did because he's getting such a shit storm every
day. If you go to his Instagram account, everybody
is dissing him and writing shit on the bakery.
And on his personal accounts, the comments are
turned off. The comments are turned off. You
have to turn off your comments because if you
turn them off, people will throw you shit 24
hours a day. You know, like, well, you asked
for it. Sorry. Nobody told you. to spit on a
gastronomic culture like the Mexican culture
dude what the fuck I think also I mean like you'll
correct me like you know you're from South America
but I feel like Mexican people they're kind of
spiteful I feel like they're super friendly and
super welcoming, but if you cross them, they'll
never, ever forget. Don't fucking mess with Mexicans,
man. You don't do that. No, no, no. Like I said,
I follow the whole circuit of rap battles all
across the Spanish -speaking world, so Spain
and Latin America. So I know, like, the different
approaches and culture, which is, you know, like,
rap battles. It's a very hostile environment,
and, you know, like, and the most hostile of
all of them is Mexico. You know, like, it's the
top one. It's the most, yeah, you don't fucking
mess with them, you know? Yeah, I'm not surprised.
So, hi everyone. This is our favorite section.
Go fact yourself! Go fact yourself? Freezing.
You know, there is this idea that freezing is
shit, right? Like, especially here in Spain,
you know, like, you will hear, like, all the
fries are frozen. I think frozen fries can be
great, to be honest. It depends if they're good.
I think most times they're great. They can also
be shit. If you buy the cheapest shit in the
supermarket or in the whatever, in the restaurant
supplier market, it will be shit. But yeah, what
are your ideas about freezing in general? Like,
is freezing always bad? When is it bad? I think
it's very rarely bad, honestly. I think freezing
is totally fine. Talking about fries. Even if
I make fries fresh from fresh potatoes, I peel
them, I cut them, I blanch them, whatever. There
is a point where I will freeze them. That's part
of the process. I think freezing fries really,
really good. Shock frosting vegetables to preserve
them. Amazing. You know, like young peas, stuff
like that. If it's done right. Shock frosting
tuna, right? Like the way that the Japanese do
to preserve tuna and to transport it. Super good.
Freezing things like lobster. to loosen it from
its shell, like very neatly, very nicely, totally
fine. Some fish, you know, and some seafood and
some meat. Maybe don't freeze it. Cheese, I wouldn't
freeze. Cheese. It's not quite the same, you
know, afterwards. I would not. Why would anyone
freeze cheese? Like a mozzarella, maybe. Like
cheese, fresh cheese. Like, I don't know. You
know, the weirdest things happen in the kitchen
where people work that went to school for like
a year and a half and then are sent out into
the world, into the real world with real people.
I mentioned this a few episodes ago, freezing
octopus before boiling it. I think it's actually
cool. Yeah, for sure. So the crystals break the
meat inside and makes it more tender. So we're
cool with freezing. I think like with everything,
if you do it sensibly and when it's appropriate,
it's totally fine. Coriander leaves. Depends.
Like you see, you change something, right? Fresh
coriander is not the same as frozen coriander,
but like, hey, you have a bunch of coriander.
You're like, I can't use this. It's too much.
It's better to freeze it and throw it away. You
know, you can like, you can still use it for
other stuff. You can like mix it, make a matter
out of it. like a puree, like whatever, you know,
but like freezing over throwing away most of
the time. Yeah, absolutely. You know, berries
frozen. Amazing. Super good. You know, the stone
fruit, you have too much. You don't want to make
you like, you've already made 10 kilos of jam.
You know, some people might say 10 kilos of jam
is not enough. Like me. I saw recently, I find
this to be really interesting. It was like a
sociological analysis about the, the. the role
of women in the household. Sandwich. What did
you say? Sandwich? No, I didn't say anything.
There is a direct correlation between women and
emancipation and empowerment and feminism and
all this thing with the industrial revolution
of home appliances. You know, the moment there
was a fridge and there was a wash machine, feminine
world changed, you know, because women wouldn't
have like a full -time job being at home. Like,
you know, you would have to do groceries every
day because there was no refrigeration and you
wouldn't have to wash things at hand. Suddenly
there was a fridge and a machine that you would
push a button and there was a lot of time to
actually go and have a job. like man would do.
And that was like a key moment in that shift
in the society, which is interesting. Go fact
yourself. Go fact yourself.