WEBVTT 00:00:04.430 --> 00:00:07.169 Hi, everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks, 00:00:07.169 --> 00:00:09.529 the show where we talk about food and kitchens 00:00:09.529 --> 00:00:11.990 from a cook's point of view. We're recording 00:00:11.990 --> 00:00:14.429 live from the back of the kitchen, where we eat 00:00:14.429 --> 00:00:18.309 your food with our fingers. My name is Silent 00:00:18.309 --> 00:00:21.070 Bob, and I'm here with Kevin Smith. Today, we're 00:00:21.070 --> 00:00:25.670 talking about enzymes, culinary enzymology, the 00:00:25.670 --> 00:00:28.350 invisible forces that actually run your kitchen, 00:00:28.510 --> 00:00:31.820 whether you know it or not. But first, you're 00:00:31.820 --> 00:00:37.460 listening to Heritage Radio Network. So, Kevin, 00:00:37.539 --> 00:00:40.159 when you first started cooking, I imagine enzymes 00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:43.579 weren't really on your radar in terms of what 00:00:43.579 --> 00:00:46.780 was happening at the physical chemical level. 00:00:46.939 --> 00:00:49.880 Do you remember when they became part of how 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:52.820 you think in the kitchen? I mean, so a baseline 00:00:52.820 --> 00:00:55.880 with enzymes, my first experiences with enzymes 00:00:55.880 --> 00:00:57.780 would have been, you hear about those cultures 00:00:57.780 --> 00:01:00.520 that'll use paya or pineapple to tenderize meat, 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:02.759 right? And then growing up as a cook, you're 00:01:02.759 --> 00:01:04.719 told like, you can use it to tenderize the meat, 00:01:04.760 --> 00:01:06.500 but don't use too much because then it'll start 00:01:06.500 --> 00:01:08.799 to digest the meat because the enzymes in the 00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:11.090 fruit. So that was kind of... The baseline of 00:01:11.090 --> 00:01:13.090 my knowledge is like, I kind of knew what it 00:01:13.090 --> 00:01:15.230 was. I knew where you could find it, like you 00:01:15.230 --> 00:01:18.250 could find it in papaya and pineapples. And I 00:01:18.250 --> 00:01:20.670 knew that in beer brewing, when you're malting 00:01:20.670 --> 00:01:23.530 the grains, you're using the enzymes in the grains 00:01:23.530 --> 00:01:25.670 themselves to turn the starch into sugars and 00:01:25.670 --> 00:01:28.049 that kind of a thing. But it wasn't until joining 00:01:28.049 --> 00:01:32.030 Noma and then also understanding the processes 00:01:32.030 --> 00:01:34.709 of koji that you kind of... learn more about 00:01:34.709 --> 00:01:36.709 enzymes and how they function. And then from 00:01:36.709 --> 00:01:38.510 there, it's like a rabbit hole. And he realized 00:01:38.510 --> 00:01:41.230 like, oh, okay, like so much of what we take 00:01:41.230 --> 00:01:43.750 for granted is because of advancements of technology 00:01:43.750 --> 00:01:47.209 of enzymes. For me, it was difficult to even 00:01:47.209 --> 00:01:50.370 come up with a definition what enzymes are because 00:01:50.370 --> 00:01:53.170 it's very blurry. So basically a way to put it, 00:01:53.269 --> 00:01:57.469 in my opinion, would be like, so these are compounds 00:01:57.469 --> 00:02:01.510 that are generated by living beings. And they 00:02:01.510 --> 00:02:04.530 can be reactive when they get in touch with another 00:02:04.530 --> 00:02:08.069 biological thing. But they're not reactive on 00:02:08.069 --> 00:02:12.930 their own. There is this traditional Andean drinks, 00:02:12.969 --> 00:02:15.610 like in South America, Andeanness, where they 00:02:15.610 --> 00:02:20.849 chew corn and they spit it into the brew. And 00:02:20.849 --> 00:02:24.169 this... What's it called? It's also the CH, right? 00:02:24.370 --> 00:02:27.610 Chicha. Chicha, that's right, yeah. So there 00:02:27.610 --> 00:02:29.650 are many things called chicha, but this is a 00:02:29.650 --> 00:02:32.830 chicha de jora. And yeah, so the single spit, 00:02:33.069 --> 00:02:37.689 the enzymes in the saliva make the corn sweet 00:02:37.689 --> 00:02:41.389 much faster. So these enzymes, when they react, 00:02:41.509 --> 00:02:44.430 they can accelerate processes. And they work 00:02:44.430 --> 00:02:46.430 like, it could be a blender, it could be something 00:02:46.430 --> 00:02:49.830 that turns something sweet or more umami, if 00:02:49.830 --> 00:02:52.949 you know how to apply them. The easiest way for 00:02:52.949 --> 00:02:56.199 me to explain How an enzyme works is if you imagine 00:02:56.199 --> 00:02:59.159 when you're cooking, everything you're cooking 00:02:59.159 --> 00:03:03.080 is like a room with a whole bunch of locked doors. 00:03:03.340 --> 00:03:05.000 And obviously when you're cooking some things, 00:03:05.099 --> 00:03:07.620 heat will unlock some doors. Salt will unlock 00:03:07.620 --> 00:03:09.759 some doors. But enzymes are one of those things 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:11.699 that it's like this magic key that'll unlock 00:03:11.699 --> 00:03:15.360 doors that you didn't think were even possible 00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:18.240 to be opened. So like you're saying with chicha, 00:03:18.379 --> 00:03:20.419 a cool thing that we used to do as kids in school 00:03:20.419 --> 00:03:23.180 was you would eat a cracker or a piece of bread. 00:03:23.610 --> 00:03:26.289 in class. And the teacher would say, don't swallow 00:03:26.289 --> 00:03:28.129 it, just keep chewing it. And as you chew it, 00:03:28.150 --> 00:03:30.610 the enzymes in your saliva would turn the bread 00:03:30.610 --> 00:03:33.590 from starchy to sweet. And you begin to taste 00:03:33.590 --> 00:03:35.650 sugars. That's the beginning phase of what's 00:03:35.650 --> 00:03:37.889 known as saccharification, which is also used 00:03:37.889 --> 00:03:40.849 in beer brewing to produce the sugars needed 00:03:40.849 --> 00:03:45.550 for yeast to ferment. But also things like your 00:03:45.550 --> 00:03:48.430 laundry. So you know how recently there's been 00:03:48.430 --> 00:03:51.550 this whole movement of cold water detergent. 00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:53.900 Like, wash your laundry in cold water now because 00:03:53.900 --> 00:03:55.620 you don't need hot water and hot water damages 00:03:55.620 --> 00:03:58.199 the fabric. And that's actually because there 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:01.020 has been developed an enzyme that works in cold 00:04:01.020 --> 00:04:03.860 water to dissolve lipids. Because usually you 00:04:03.860 --> 00:04:06.699 use hot water to get the oils and the fats out 00:04:06.699 --> 00:04:10.000 of your clothes from sweats and things like that. 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:13.509 Do you see enzyme cells? Ingredients, tools, 00:04:13.650 --> 00:04:16.709 or processes? I see them as both. At Noma, we'll 00:04:16.709 --> 00:04:20.050 use enzymes for, I mean, there's this famous 00:04:20.050 --> 00:04:22.529 breakthrough we had where we could turn kombucha 00:04:22.529 --> 00:04:25.810 scoby into something edible. Because usually 00:04:25.810 --> 00:04:29.470 scoby, it's mostly cellulose, which is what corn, 00:04:29.610 --> 00:04:32.310 like, is the outside of a corn kernel. And, like, 00:04:32.430 --> 00:04:35.250 wood has cellulose in it as well. It's an undigestible 00:04:35.250 --> 00:04:39.790 fiber. And it's very acidic, very pungent, yeah. 00:04:40.430 --> 00:04:43.209 And scoby, which is this like jellyfish looking 00:04:43.209 --> 00:04:45.389 thing that grows in your kombucha. Every time 00:04:45.389 --> 00:04:46.970 you make kombucha, the scoby gets bigger until 00:04:46.970 --> 00:04:48.370 eventually you're either giving it away to your 00:04:48.370 --> 00:04:50.310 friends or you're throwing it in the garbage. 00:04:50.410 --> 00:04:52.170 So we wanted to find a way to make it edible 00:04:52.170 --> 00:04:55.810 in a way that wasn't candying, like boiling in 00:04:55.810 --> 00:04:57.610 syrup, because that had been done before. And 00:04:57.610 --> 00:05:00.550 we started researching into using enzymes and 00:05:00.550 --> 00:05:03.649 we would use a cellulase enzyme. So in general 00:05:03.649 --> 00:05:07.800 with enzymes, there's like a key legend. for 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:11.379 figuring out enzymes in certain ways so if you 00:05:11.379 --> 00:05:13.839 want to break down cellulose the enzyme is called 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:18.660 cellulase the the ending the suffix ase is the 00:05:18.660 --> 00:05:21.100 enzyme equivalent of whatever the ingredient 00:05:21.100 --> 00:05:23.579 is so you would have for example cellulase you 00:05:23.579 --> 00:05:26.360 would have pectinase which breaks down pectin 00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:29.540 you have lipase which breaks down fats proteases 00:05:29.540 --> 00:05:33.120 which break down proteins and maybe for those 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:34.439 of you listening out there these are all new 00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:36.360 words to you but i guarantee you that throughout 00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:41.100 eating food, you've encountered the end results 00:05:41.100 --> 00:05:43.920 of a lot of enzymatic production. For example, 00:05:43.959 --> 00:05:47.579 cheese, right? Like in order to turn milk into 00:05:47.579 --> 00:05:50.639 cheese, that's an enzymatic process. So these 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:54.139 are things that are pretty much all over the 00:05:54.139 --> 00:05:59.139 food processes that we already know. I was preparing 00:05:59.139 --> 00:06:02.279 like some questions for this episode and I, of 00:06:02.279 --> 00:06:04.699 course, it came to mind the experience we had 00:06:04.699 --> 00:06:07.939 together in... uh in japan because it's completely 00:06:07.939 --> 00:06:13.500 related to the topic uh the the yukusei sushi 00:06:13.500 --> 00:06:18.839 the aged sushi yeah yukusei sushi so for me it 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:21.060 was uh i was staying in shibuya for one night 00:06:21.060 --> 00:06:24.120 and i had a date the next day with kevin and 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:26.579 that night i had a booking on on my own so i 00:06:26.579 --> 00:06:30.629 got lost in Shibuya, and then suddenly I was 00:06:30.629 --> 00:06:33.189 super late. It was just on a castle place on 00:06:33.189 --> 00:06:36.790 a sixth floor. I got lost. I couldn't find the 00:06:36.790 --> 00:06:39.069 store, and I came up just on time. It was in 00:06:39.069 --> 00:06:41.389 a residential apartment building. Yeah, I came 00:06:41.389 --> 00:06:44.250 up just on time. I walk in completely nervous. 00:06:44.350 --> 00:06:47.310 I was late. I leave my jacket. I sit down, and 00:06:47.310 --> 00:06:49.189 then I look to my left, and Kevin was sitting 00:06:49.189 --> 00:06:51.329 there like, hey, hey, what are you doing here? 00:06:51.329 --> 00:06:54.279 Just waving. What are you doing here? And so 00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:56.720 you had background on this place because I actually, 00:06:56.879 --> 00:07:00.579 it was the only omakase I found that looked interesting 00:07:00.579 --> 00:07:02.680 and I booked it, but I had no idea that this 00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:07.120 place specializes on fish aging, which is in 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:10.680 itself an enzymatic process. What can you tell 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:13.939 about that? Yeah, I mean, so fish aging, I think 00:07:13.939 --> 00:07:16.300 recently it's come into vogue a little bit and 00:07:16.300 --> 00:07:19.160 it's become popular because, in large part, because 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:23.379 of Josh Nyland and his... His very excellent, 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:26.360 informative cookbooks from his restaurants, St. 00:07:26.459 --> 00:07:30.680 Peter in Australia. And for those of you who 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:32.259 haven't read the book or haven't flipped through 00:07:32.259 --> 00:07:35.639 it, I do highly recommend reading through it 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:39.980 or following him on Instagram. Because he's kind 00:07:39.980 --> 00:07:42.300 of become one of those really influential figures. 00:07:42.379 --> 00:07:44.399 He looks at fish in the same way that a lot of 00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:46.399 people look at meat. So different ways of butchering, 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:50.470 different ways of cooking. Also different ways 00:07:50.470 --> 00:07:54.089 of aging. And what he does in Australia is he 00:07:54.089 --> 00:07:56.050 has a butcher shop, but instead of meat, it's 00:07:56.050 --> 00:07:59.910 fish. And you have dry aging of fish and multiple 00:07:59.910 --> 00:08:04.089 different stages of aging. So I think it's becoming 00:08:04.089 --> 00:08:06.050 more popular now. That being said, in Japan, 00:08:06.050 --> 00:08:09.949 there's a very long history of aging fish. I 00:08:09.949 --> 00:08:12.430 think the myth with sushi is a lot of people 00:08:12.430 --> 00:08:16.149 say, oh, sushi has to be the freshest, most screamily, 00:08:16.250 --> 00:08:20.339 like fresh off the boat fish. It's true for some 00:08:20.339 --> 00:08:24.279 fish, but usually in general, I am generalizing 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:26.800 here, but usually the bigger the fish, the longer 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:29.439 you want it to age. And that means things like 00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:33.460 tuna and kueh, which is a very traditional fish 00:08:33.460 --> 00:08:36.120 this time of year in Japan. Very popular. These 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:38.820 larger fish, they benefit from sitting in cool 00:08:38.820 --> 00:08:42.440 environments and just allowing the natural enzymes 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:46.179 in the meat to slowly begin to tenderize the 00:08:46.179 --> 00:08:49.759 meat. and break down proteins into amino acids 00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:51.700 and that's how you get to a stage where we were 00:08:51.700 --> 00:08:54.139 at that at that meal where we were together and 00:08:54.139 --> 00:08:56.279 we're eating these fish that funky always has 00:08:56.279 --> 00:08:59.679 a bad connotation but in this case it was funky 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:06.159 and like a rich like complex dry aged beef kind 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:07.840 of a way like there were all these notes that 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:10.200 you wouldn't normally smell in in fresh fish 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:14.399 and at first it can be a bit unnerving and then 00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:17.240 you taste it and you realize that all the enzymatic 00:09:17.240 --> 00:09:19.460 processes that happen during the aging of the 00:09:19.460 --> 00:09:22.799 fish, it's actually tremendously increasing the 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:27.480 umami in the fish and the flavor is much better 00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:31.159 for it. Yeah, so basically you mentioned earlier 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:34.879 that in a cooking process that there are doors 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:37.799 where you walk in and you find things. So the 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:40.820 way I see it is, yeah, the fish dies and its 00:09:40.820 --> 00:09:44.360 enzymes start breaking down muscle proteins. 00:09:45.179 --> 00:09:47.539 And this makes the texture softer. And at the 00:09:47.539 --> 00:09:51.480 same time, it produces umami, basically. That's 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:54.460 why it's so interesting for sushi. That's the 00:09:54.460 --> 00:09:56.940 science behind like garum and fish sauce, right? 00:09:57.000 --> 00:09:59.360 That's why when you blend up a whole bunch of 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:01.000 fish with salt and water, you let it sit in the 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:04.559 sun. That's why it tastes meaty and umami after 00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:08.200 a number of weeks or months sitting at room temperature. 00:10:08.539 --> 00:10:10.539 And it's because of these enzymes that are breaking 00:10:10.539 --> 00:10:12.620 down the proteins into amino acids, one of which 00:10:12.620 --> 00:10:16.360 is glutamic acid, which is... The G of MSG. It's 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:19.460 the reason that umami is something that we know 00:10:19.460 --> 00:10:23.179 of and we crave. You were saying earlier that 00:10:23.179 --> 00:10:26.240 for pectin, you use pectinase. When you're talking 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:29.440 about this substance, what is this? Is this like 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:32.159 a white powder you can buy from a biochemical 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:37.220 company? When it first came out in terms of non 00:10:37.220 --> 00:10:39.519 -industrial use in kitchens, this would have 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:42.899 been like 2008, 2009. You had to kind of buy 00:10:42.899 --> 00:10:46.679 it from industrial. lab producers but now you 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:49.720 can use like modernist pantries they sell a pectinase 00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:52.980 to simplify it you know when you make um strawberry 00:10:52.980 --> 00:10:55.759 puree and let's say you want to make a drink 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:59.120 like a strawberry kombucha when you puree strawberries 00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:01.480 it's so thick it's not a juice it's a puree or 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:03.899 like mango nectar for example if you put a mango 00:11:03.899 --> 00:11:06.399 into a juicer sludge kind of comes out right 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:08.100 and like the yield and that's because pectin 00:11:08.100 --> 00:11:11.539 is is cross -linked and is binding to all that 00:11:11.539 --> 00:11:15.289 free water so what pectinase does it is it dissolves 00:11:15.289 --> 00:11:18.129 that network and then it frees up all the water 00:11:18.129 --> 00:11:20.730 so when you if you juice or puree a bunch of 00:11:20.730 --> 00:11:23.350 strawberries and then add like i think it's one 00:11:23.350 --> 00:11:27.210 percent by weight of this pectin enzyme after 00:11:27.210 --> 00:11:30.529 however like if it's a curve right so the warmer 00:11:30.529 --> 00:11:32.590 it is the faster the enzyme works if you do it 00:11:32.590 --> 00:11:34.009 at room temperature it's a fresher flavor it 00:11:34.009 --> 00:11:35.309 just takes longer but whenever it's done the 00:11:35.309 --> 00:11:37.629 enzyme's done doing its thing it's like juice 00:11:37.629 --> 00:11:39.409 it's water so you just strain it out and then 00:11:39.409 --> 00:11:42.080 you have what looks like Kool -Aid like red Kool 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:43.399 -Aid, but it's made a hundred percent out of 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:45.519 strawberries. And this is a lot of bars are using 00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:47.340 this. We use it at the restaurant to increase 00:11:47.340 --> 00:11:49.100 the yield. We can make a plum juice out of it 00:11:49.100 --> 00:11:52.059 where normally a plum has too much pectin. The 00:11:52.059 --> 00:11:54.220 yield is really bad. Most people are probably 00:11:54.220 --> 00:11:57.179 very familiar with when you buy tinned, uh, tinned 00:11:57.179 --> 00:11:59.659 mandarin oranges, the segments and, and the, 00:11:59.659 --> 00:12:01.659 um, they're like perfectly peeled. And it's not 00:12:01.659 --> 00:12:04.480 like, it's not like Del Monte or Dole. They have 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:07.240 like a factory of elves peeling the little bit 00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:09.830 of pith off of every segment of orange. It's 00:12:09.830 --> 00:12:12.129 a bath that you actually submerge the oranges 00:12:12.129 --> 00:12:14.250 into and the pectinase dissolves all the pith. 00:12:14.429 --> 00:12:17.450 Wow, that's fascinating. What was it? This trend 00:12:17.450 --> 00:12:20.470 on social media recently where people were showing 00:12:20.470 --> 00:12:23.529 photos of like Clementine segments, like perfectly 00:12:23.529 --> 00:12:26.070 peeled up all the white. So it was just the perfect 00:12:26.070 --> 00:12:28.450 segment. And they're saying like, oh, someday 00:12:28.450 --> 00:12:31.190 I wish someone loves me enough that they give 00:12:31.190 --> 00:12:34.070 me this perfectly peeled Mandarin segment without 00:12:34.070 --> 00:12:37.440 any of like the skin on it. One of the coolest 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:39.019 things I've seen done with pectinase is if you 00:12:39.019 --> 00:12:41.419 peel the mandarin, but you keep it together in 00:12:41.419 --> 00:12:44.279 the shape, like a whole fruit just peeled, and 00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:46.860 then you drop it in the pectinase, you can pull 00:12:46.860 --> 00:12:50.720 out all the connected mandarin segments with 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:53.159 none of the pith around it. And it's the trippiest 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:56.019 thing you've ever seen. Phil, do you recommend 00:12:56.019 --> 00:12:59.480 podcasts to your friends? All the time. The best 00:12:59.480 --> 00:13:01.659 way of showing friends that you care is recommending 00:13:01.659 --> 00:13:04.740 a great podcast to listen to. I agree. If you're 00:13:04.740 --> 00:13:07.360 listening right now, you should show your love 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:10.419 by recommending our show to all your best friends. 00:13:10.620 --> 00:13:13.799 It will make them happy. It will make us happy. 00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:16.820 PopLock Food Talks. Tell your friends. It will 00:13:16.820 --> 00:13:21.450 make the world a better place. Like recently, 00:13:21.570 --> 00:13:24.690 we've been using enzymes, abnoma and fermentation 00:13:24.690 --> 00:13:29.269 as like an assistant to the fermentation process. 00:13:29.549 --> 00:13:32.730 So for those of you unfamiliar with fermentation 00:13:32.730 --> 00:13:36.830 in terms of the way that enzymes work with koji. 00:13:37.009 --> 00:13:40.250 So koji produces enzymes naturally through its 00:13:40.250 --> 00:13:43.049 growing process. And the enzymes do things like 00:13:43.049 --> 00:13:44.870 they break down starch into sugars, they break 00:13:44.870 --> 00:13:48.250 down proteins into umami and amino acids. But 00:13:48.250 --> 00:13:51.590 a lot of times... The conversion is not a complete 00:13:51.590 --> 00:13:55.669 conversion because the more enzymes break down 00:13:55.669 --> 00:13:59.250 the starch or the protein, the fewer enzymes 00:13:59.250 --> 00:14:01.110 that are around. So eventually it's like a school 00:14:01.110 --> 00:14:03.409 dance where everyone's partnered up and you just 00:14:03.409 --> 00:14:05.230 have like one or two people kind of circling 00:14:05.230 --> 00:14:07.730 around and they don't quite meet. So what we'll 00:14:07.730 --> 00:14:10.289 do to alleviate that situation is we'll run the 00:14:10.289 --> 00:14:11.669 fermentation, we'll make the shoyu, we'll make 00:14:11.669 --> 00:14:13.789 the garam, we'll strain it, and then we will 00:14:13.789 --> 00:14:18.669 add an enzyme to it. That enzyme basically cleans 00:14:18.669 --> 00:14:22.990 up any leftover unconverted proteins or unconverted 00:14:22.990 --> 00:14:26.600 starches. So it's our way of... Ensuring 100 00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:30.480 % attenuation, which is a term used for the conversion 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:33.240 from starches, like sacrification from starches 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:35.600 to sugars, or just to ensure that we're not missing 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:37.940 any opportunity. We're not leaving money on the 00:14:37.940 --> 00:14:39.919 table, so to speak. Something that took me a 00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:42.940 while to learn when I started doing fermentations 00:14:42.940 --> 00:14:45.940 on my own, like whatever, you know, like just 00:14:45.940 --> 00:14:48.940 doing some lacto -fermented vegetables at home 00:14:48.940 --> 00:14:53.970 or my own hot sauces was to... to learn when 00:14:53.970 --> 00:14:56.309 was it good enough and then interrupting the 00:14:56.309 --> 00:14:58.809 process by pasteurizing. Because it's not like 00:14:58.809 --> 00:15:01.190 the most, the better. You have to know when to 00:15:01.190 --> 00:15:03.509 stop. And as far as I understand, it's the same 00:15:03.509 --> 00:15:06.470 with enzymes. Is there also like ways of interrupting 00:15:06.470 --> 00:15:10.809 the enzymatic process and when is the right moment? 00:15:11.090 --> 00:15:13.029 For us, it's the same thing as fermentation. 00:15:13.370 --> 00:15:15.509 Like you just have to taste it and figure out 00:15:15.509 --> 00:15:18.009 when you think it tastes the best. And that's 00:15:18.009 --> 00:15:21.049 as simple as like tasting it as it's being converted 00:15:21.049 --> 00:15:23.309 and saying it's good. And then five minutes later, 00:15:23.370 --> 00:15:24.850 it's even better than it was. And five minutes 00:15:24.850 --> 00:15:26.570 later after that, it's even better than it was. 00:15:26.809 --> 00:15:28.830 And then getting to a point where you see that 00:15:28.830 --> 00:15:32.210 it's kind of, it won't get worse, but it'll just 00:15:32.210 --> 00:15:33.470 kind of plateau. And then you're just wasting 00:15:33.470 --> 00:15:35.889 time, right? When there's nothing being converted, 00:15:36.009 --> 00:15:38.210 it's just kind of sitting there. So intuition, 00:15:38.590 --> 00:15:42.210 flavor, but also if it's a case of pectinase, 00:15:42.289 --> 00:15:45.870 when you're straining your plums, your plum puree 00:15:45.870 --> 00:15:48.769 or what have you, the yield is also a good indicator. 00:15:48.990 --> 00:15:53.429 If you got maximum, conversion because if you 00:15:53.429 --> 00:15:55.529 if you're straining the plums and the amount 00:15:55.529 --> 00:15:58.190 of juice that comes out isn't as much as it usually 00:15:58.190 --> 00:16:01.070 is then you know oh i probably didn't leave it 00:16:01.070 --> 00:16:04.370 on the enzyme for long enough or maybe it got 00:16:04.370 --> 00:16:06.110 a bit like if i do it at room temperature maybe 00:16:06.110 --> 00:16:07.990 room temperature today is a few degrees cooler 00:16:07.990 --> 00:16:10.830 than it is normally and that can affect the conversion 00:16:10.830 --> 00:16:14.090 rate of the enzyme like how many different enzymes 00:16:14.090 --> 00:16:17.029 do you have on your toolbox like let's say in 00:16:17.029 --> 00:16:19.610 the lab we're in a very privileged position uh 00:16:19.610 --> 00:16:22.960 at noma where we've just begun a partnership 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:26.460 with a company called Novanessus. And Novanessus 00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:31.980 is, I believe, the largest producer of microcultures 00:16:31.980 --> 00:16:34.440 in the world. When Dave left Noma, he went to 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:36.960 work for a company called Christian Hansen, and 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:41.059 they developed the yeast that creates beer. There's 00:16:41.059 --> 00:16:44.220 a type of yeast called Saccharomyces carlsberginus, 00:16:44.340 --> 00:16:48.159 and this is the company that isolated the beer 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:50.440 -making yeast. And eventually this company got 00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:53.700 amalgamated with Novozymes, which was the enzyme 00:16:53.700 --> 00:16:55.500 production side of things. And they created this 00:16:55.500 --> 00:16:57.500 company called Novanesis. And we just began a 00:16:57.500 --> 00:16:59.899 partnership with them because Noma and Novanesis 00:16:59.899 --> 00:17:04.079 are, in addition to having similar names, they're 00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:05.839 both Danish entities. Well, and they've been 00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:09.619 working for a long time in Noma, right? Yeah. 00:17:09.640 --> 00:17:12.059 And with them, we have access to their labs and 00:17:12.059 --> 00:17:15.000 their equipment and like very specialist equipment 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:17.950 that... We'll do the one thing really, really 00:17:17.950 --> 00:17:20.250 well, but it's not something that we would use 00:17:20.250 --> 00:17:21.710 every day at the restaurant. So we can't really 00:17:21.710 --> 00:17:24.849 justify spending tens of thousands of euros on 00:17:24.849 --> 00:17:29.210 it. And then with us, they have an outlet of 00:17:29.210 --> 00:17:34.230 creative people who can take their abstract enzymes 00:17:34.230 --> 00:17:36.089 that they create. They're like, you know, this 00:17:36.089 --> 00:17:39.829 converts proteins into amino acids, but they're 00:17:39.829 --> 00:17:41.990 not chefs. They don't necessarily know how to 00:17:41.990 --> 00:17:43.869 use that in the most delicious way. So they partner 00:17:43.869 --> 00:17:46.259 up with us so that we take. The cool stuff that 00:17:46.259 --> 00:17:48.440 they're doing, we do cool things with it. And 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:51.839 they benefit from people being able to see the 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:53.539 benefit of the work that this company is doing. 00:17:53.660 --> 00:17:56.500 So because of this partnership, we have as many 00:17:56.500 --> 00:17:59.640 as 12 different enzyme and enzyme cocktails on 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:03.359 hand at Noma. Everything from the pectin X or 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:05.839 the pectinase that I was talking about, proteases 00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:10.700 that break down proteins to lipases that break 00:18:10.700 --> 00:18:15.660 down fats. Yeah, there's a whole... a whole library 00:18:15.660 --> 00:18:17.619 like a lot of them we don't even have yet they 00:18:17.619 --> 00:18:21.180 have a designated a designated enzyme guru who 00:18:21.180 --> 00:18:25.559 he'll fly from Germany or from France to us if 00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:28.019 we have a question and he'll work on things with 00:18:28.019 --> 00:18:31.259 us at the the Novanesis lab in Copenhagen on 00:18:31.259 --> 00:18:34.160 things like I mean we both worked fine dining 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:36.039 like you know like when you have to peel walnuts 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:38.980 like the skin of the walnut oh yes of course 00:18:38.980 --> 00:18:43.390 I do and it takes like 30 interns like an hour 00:18:43.390 --> 00:18:45.529 and you think about all that time it takes like 00:18:45.529 --> 00:18:47.410 then we're like well what if there was some kind 00:18:47.410 --> 00:18:49.529 of enzyme that similar to the mandarin orange 00:18:49.529 --> 00:18:51.309 you just dump a whole bunch of walnuts into this 00:18:51.309 --> 00:18:54.049 bath of water and then it dissolves the skin 00:18:54.049 --> 00:18:56.829 you just pull up perfectly whole white peeled 00:18:56.829 --> 00:19:00.269 walnuts we're in denmark in scandinavia and they 00:19:00.269 --> 00:19:02.309 have the the teeny tiny little shrimp that we 00:19:02.309 --> 00:19:03.809 will have the serving on the menu and it's all 00:19:03.809 --> 00:19:07.490 hand peeled and it takes a long time to peel 00:19:07.490 --> 00:19:09.569 enough shrimp for everyone's portion every day 00:19:09.569 --> 00:19:11.170 and we're like well what if there was an enzyme 00:19:11.170 --> 00:19:13.710 you just drop all the shells and all the shrimps 00:19:13.710 --> 00:19:15.609 with the shells on into and then 15 minutes later 00:19:15.609 --> 00:19:17.410 you'll lift out your perfectly peeled shrimp 00:19:17.410 --> 00:19:20.569 part of this new relationship that we have with 00:19:20.569 --> 00:19:22.430 this company that we're really excited about 00:19:22.430 --> 00:19:26.470 is the potential of not only to save time and 00:19:26.470 --> 00:19:30.049 save labor but also to take things that were 00:19:30.049 --> 00:19:32.369 previously thought to be impossible to do and 00:19:32.369 --> 00:19:35.589 just you know not to make them super easy but 00:19:35.589 --> 00:19:37.960 just If the impossible looks only difficult, 00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:40.180 then we've already succeeded. What is David Silber 00:19:40.180 --> 00:19:43.259 doing? NovoNesis is the new name of the company? 00:19:43.740 --> 00:19:48.019 Yeah, NovoNesis. Yeah, I visited his lab. I think 00:19:48.019 --> 00:19:50.539 it was still Christian Hansen. But it's a beautiful 00:19:50.539 --> 00:19:52.680 lab in the middle of the forest. It's like a 00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:56.980 dream workspace, absolutely. He's working away 00:19:56.980 --> 00:20:01.480 with them. Also, trying to collaborate with other 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:03.680 restaurants and interested parties and things 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:07.140 like that. I think... This is just me speculating. 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:09.680 In no way do I speak on behalf of Novanessus, 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:13.519 but I think what they're looking for is to become, 00:20:13.660 --> 00:20:16.980 not popular, but to become known to people that 00:20:16.980 --> 00:20:19.099 this is what their contribution to the world 00:20:19.099 --> 00:20:21.740 is. Because everyone looks at, like I said, cold 00:20:21.740 --> 00:20:24.059 water detergent and they're like, oh, cool. My 00:20:24.059 --> 00:20:27.299 heating bill is going to be less now that I'm 00:20:27.299 --> 00:20:28.900 using cold water detergent because my laundry 00:20:28.900 --> 00:20:30.400 machine doesn't need to use hot water anymore. 00:20:30.730 --> 00:20:33.089 And I think a lot of what Dave does and other 00:20:33.089 --> 00:20:35.289 individuals at this company do is they're kind 00:20:35.289 --> 00:20:37.950 of trying to fill that gap of knowledge to be 00:20:37.950 --> 00:20:40.309 like, okay, well, the reason that you don't longer 00:20:40.309 --> 00:20:42.710 have to use hot water is because we've developed 00:20:42.710 --> 00:20:46.349 this enzyme that dissolves fat at lower temperature. 00:20:46.849 --> 00:20:49.549 So it saves you money in laundry. And then beyond 00:20:49.549 --> 00:20:51.150 that, now that people understand the process, 00:20:51.250 --> 00:20:52.470 then they can start thinking, well, what other 00:20:52.470 --> 00:20:56.549 instances do I need to dissolve fat at low temperatures 00:20:56.549 --> 00:21:01.259 or dissolve other things in other, Other entities, 00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:04.119 like a protease, for example, we think of it 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:07.559 as like fish sauce, like turning a blended up 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:09.400 squid or blended up shrimp into an umami rich 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:11.640 sauce. But like the first proteases were for 00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:13.220 hospitals. When you're operating, you get blood 00:21:13.220 --> 00:21:16.299 on all the clothes and the smocks that you have 00:21:16.299 --> 00:21:18.900 to get them laundered. They were having trouble 00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:22.680 getting the blood out of the clothes, the laundromat. 00:21:22.940 --> 00:21:25.759 So this enzyme dissolves the protein in the blood 00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:29.180 and then that's how they end up. With the functionality 00:21:29.180 --> 00:21:31.079 on that end, it just took a chef to be like, 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:34.500 oh, well, we can use that to make a really good 00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:37.140 sauce bordelaise because you can make a beef 00:21:37.140 --> 00:21:39.920 garam using this enzyme and then add that into 00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:41.339 your bordelaise in addition to the beef stock. 00:21:41.660 --> 00:21:43.579 That thing you just mentioned, does that exist? 00:21:43.859 --> 00:21:47.400 Like dissolving fat on cold temperatures? Is 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:52.599 that possible today with enzymes? Yeah, that's 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:54.920 like every cold water detergent is a cold water 00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:57.559 detergent because it has this enzyme in it. Okay. 00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:00.900 So basically what you use to clean your pots, 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:04.960 that already contains that. Yeah. Okay. Now I 00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:07.900 get what you said, that many of the innovations 00:22:07.900 --> 00:22:12.779 that are in our everyday life are equipped with 00:22:12.779 --> 00:22:14.140 enzymes. Because of enzymes and you don't even 00:22:14.140 --> 00:22:18.940 know it. What about maturing fruits? Is this 00:22:18.940 --> 00:22:23.900 also something where you can use, where enzymes 00:22:23.900 --> 00:22:27.259 deliberately... I'd rather do the process. The 00:22:27.259 --> 00:22:29.720 maturation of fruit. So I guess you're referring 00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:32.119 to when people say you want to ripen an avocado 00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:34.039 quickly, you put it in a paper bag with a banana 00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:37.279 or something like that. The gas that ripens fruit 00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:39.660 and is a signifier to the fruit that it needs 00:22:39.660 --> 00:22:41.660 to ripen and start producing sugar and softening 00:22:41.660 --> 00:22:44.400 and texture is called ethylene. And a lot of 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:47.059 fruit suppliers, what they'll do is they'll have 00:22:47.059 --> 00:22:48.740 their big room of all the apples that they've 00:22:48.740 --> 00:22:51.220 picked under ripe and then they'll have picked 00:22:51.220 --> 00:22:52.900 for the entire season. But obviously there's 00:22:52.900 --> 00:22:55.799 way too many apples for anyone to buy. all of 00:22:55.799 --> 00:22:57.200 them before they go rotten. So what they'll do 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:00.539 is they'll keep them in storage. And then as 00:23:00.539 --> 00:23:03.380 they need to ripen, they will introduce ethylene 00:23:03.380 --> 00:23:07.259 gas into the room to ripen the specified amount 00:23:07.259 --> 00:23:08.799 that they want to ripen. And that way they can 00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:12.940 control their own workflow so that they're not 00:23:12.940 --> 00:23:15.740 worried about... That's why you never see avocados 00:23:15.740 --> 00:23:19.609 for 25 cents each for a week because... All the 00:23:19.609 --> 00:23:21.410 avocados are ripe and they got to sell now because 00:23:21.410 --> 00:23:22.890 otherwise they're just going to go in the garbage. 00:23:23.029 --> 00:23:26.470 The companies have used this system to moderate 00:23:26.470 --> 00:23:29.049 the rate at which fruit ripens. Yeah, I've heard 00:23:29.049 --> 00:23:32.289 that if you're eating an apple, it was probably 00:23:32.289 --> 00:23:36.329 picked eight months before you're eating it. 00:23:36.410 --> 00:23:38.630 Yeah, because that's a good example of enzymes 00:23:38.630 --> 00:23:42.700 and science being used from like a... a capitalism 00:23:42.700 --> 00:23:45.140 point of view, like, because that's how you ensure 00:23:45.140 --> 00:23:47.160 that all your customers have access to apples 00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:49.740 all times of the year. So you maximize revenue 00:23:49.740 --> 00:23:52.599 because you have the supply. You just need to 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:54.619 moderate the demand. And that's why, like, if 00:23:54.619 --> 00:23:56.000 you go to a farmer's market where you get an 00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:57.380 apple picked right off the tree that morning, 00:23:57.420 --> 00:23:59.519 it's going to taste better. Someone told me once 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:02.720 that if New Yorkers bought only from a farmer's 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:05.119 market and instead of using the big box shops 00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:09.299 and the large stores like Whole Foods, the There'd 00:24:09.299 --> 00:24:11.640 be a collapse in the food system because the 00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:13.240 amount of trucks that would have to come in from 00:24:13.240 --> 00:24:15.160 farms in order to feed all the people of New 00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:17.359 York would clog up highways. No one could get 00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:20.480 in or out. So as villainized as like the big 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:24.000 box stores are for doing things like these apples 00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:26.079 that are picked eight months ago, I think it's 00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:29.299 also a necessary thing to ensure that there is 00:24:29.299 --> 00:24:31.740 a food supply. It doesn't completely fall apart 00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:33.500 when things are not in season or when things 00:24:33.500 --> 00:24:35.380 are getting overripe. I think it would be for 00:24:35.380 --> 00:24:37.799 a very volatile market. Yeah, no, no, no. I completely 00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:40.740 agree. Feeding the people is the first thing. 00:24:41.180 --> 00:24:44.940 Feeding them nice would be second, right? Yeah. 00:24:45.299 --> 00:24:48.799 What about mead glutamines? I remember this was 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:52.339 kind of like 20, 15 years ago. Is it still a 00:24:52.339 --> 00:24:55.839 thing or not so much? I mean, I can tell you 00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:59.019 that it was used very recently. um at restaurant 00:24:59.019 --> 00:25:03.880 noma for for staff meal so i'm in i'm in la right 00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:06.960 now so i'm i'm not in copenhagen but they do 00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:09.019 christmas lunch right so we just closed for christmas 00:25:09.019 --> 00:25:11.980 break and the last staff meal before the break 00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:13.740 is like a christmas themes like you do roast 00:25:13.740 --> 00:25:16.500 and potatoes and cabbage and like the traditional 00:25:16.500 --> 00:25:20.460 meal and the traditional roast in denmark is 00:25:20.460 --> 00:25:22.539 a pork roast with the skin on so you get the 00:25:22.539 --> 00:25:24.599 crispy skin and Usually it's either pork neck 00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:26.819 or pork belly or pork loin. But what happened 00:25:26.819 --> 00:25:29.740 was, I guess they ordered the pork and it came 00:25:29.740 --> 00:25:32.019 in and someone, the butcher had like accidentally 00:25:32.019 --> 00:25:36.519 butterflied the pork. So it wasn't going to roast 00:25:36.519 --> 00:25:39.299 properly because it was a huge like, I don't 00:25:39.299 --> 00:25:41.359 know, it just was not so even. So they glued 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:44.900 it back together. Yeah, so they transglutaminased 00:25:44.900 --> 00:25:47.559 it back together. And then like it looked phenomenal 00:25:47.559 --> 00:25:50.279 afterwards. No one will ever know. that you use 00:25:50.279 --> 00:25:52.140 the meat glue, but then also like the cross section 00:25:52.140 --> 00:25:53.460 where I was like, well, no one will ever know 00:25:53.460 --> 00:25:55.099 what part of the pig that was either. Cause like 00:25:55.099 --> 00:25:58.180 the muscle, the muscle patterning was all off 00:25:58.180 --> 00:25:59.680 cause you tell it, it kind of shoved it together 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:03.180 and, and set it. Um, but that is also an enzyme, 00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:05.140 you know, I was coming up and I know you were 00:26:05.140 --> 00:26:08.079 coming up in kitchens and in cooking in the heyday 00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:12.339 of, of transglutaminase and, and Activa. It was, 00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:13.779 it was always villainized cause people would 00:26:13.779 --> 00:26:15.400 say, well, you can just take like little bits 00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:17.779 of beef and then glue it together and sell it 00:26:17.779 --> 00:26:21.250 as. filet mignon or something or make a frankenstein 00:26:21.250 --> 00:26:25.910 of the different monsters and yeah exactly and 00:26:25.910 --> 00:26:28.269 like there is novelty and it was fun to think 00:26:28.269 --> 00:26:32.569 of it like that but like i know um wiley dufresne 00:26:32.569 --> 00:26:35.369 had these famous i believe they were shrimp noodles 00:26:35.369 --> 00:26:37.809 i was going to say exactly that in the shrimp 00:26:37.809 --> 00:26:40.509 noodles yeah and he would like extrude it into 00:26:40.509 --> 00:26:43.009 hot water That was so cool for me. That was the 00:26:43.009 --> 00:26:46.089 best application I saw. Basically, it was shrimp 00:26:46.089 --> 00:26:48.990 puree, like raw shrimp, and then pressed like 00:26:48.990 --> 00:26:52.430 spaghetti. And you had like this 100 % shrimp 00:26:52.430 --> 00:26:54.990 spaghetti. I think that's genius. And you would 00:26:54.990 --> 00:26:57.130 serve it like just with a tomato sauce and basil. 00:26:57.730 --> 00:27:01.190 So that it looked like a very normal pasta, just 00:27:01.190 --> 00:27:05.049 that it was like 100 % shrimp pasta or prawn 00:27:05.049 --> 00:27:07.500 or whatever it was. I thought it was the coolest 00:27:07.500 --> 00:27:09.779 thing. I lament how little it is used today, 00:27:09.880 --> 00:27:12.099 but it was one of those ingredients that was 00:27:12.099 --> 00:27:14.539 so demonized when it was popular that people 00:27:14.539 --> 00:27:16.700 are almost afraid to use it or afraid to say 00:27:16.700 --> 00:27:19.160 that they use it. Like I know Corey Lee at Bennu, 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:23.940 he had a tofu recipe where he would use the transglutaminase 00:27:23.940 --> 00:27:27.200 to make sure that the tofu or make sure the proteins 00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:28.700 in the soy milk would stick together when it 00:27:28.700 --> 00:27:30.579 would sit. So that's how you ensure you had a 00:27:30.579 --> 00:27:33.200 very even consistency. When you explain the dish 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:35.549 or whatever, You would never explain it as like, 00:27:35.630 --> 00:27:39.289 oh, and this is a transglutaminase glued piece 00:27:39.289 --> 00:27:42.390 of whatever. It was just a tool. It was like 00:27:42.390 --> 00:27:46.849 you had to get from A to B, and this was the 00:27:46.849 --> 00:27:49.450 tool that got you there. Yeah, exactly. You don't 00:27:49.450 --> 00:27:53.190 say, for example, that whatever, the thickener 00:27:53.190 --> 00:27:57.069 you use for the sauce. Yeah, we use some xanthan 00:27:57.069 --> 00:28:00.029 on this sauce. Nobody says that, you know? Or 00:28:00.029 --> 00:28:03.710 like kuzu this or kuzu that. I mean, the Japanese 00:28:03.710 --> 00:28:07.210 use so much kuzu. It's like arrowroot starch 00:28:07.210 --> 00:28:08.549 or whatever. That's how you get that luxurious 00:28:08.549 --> 00:28:12.529 silky texture in the sauce. But they don't tell 00:28:12.529 --> 00:28:15.329 you this because to them it's just like an ingredient. 00:28:15.490 --> 00:28:17.349 It's like this is just the way that this texture 00:28:17.349 --> 00:28:19.480 is achieved and that's what we do it. Hey Phil, 00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:22.460 have you subscribed to our newsletter yet? We 00:28:22.460 --> 00:28:25.039 have a newsletter? What's a newsletter about, 00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:28.099 Eric? Every month we share one cool thing from 00:28:28.099 --> 00:28:30.299 the world of food and restaurants and occasionally 00:28:30.299 --> 00:28:34.019 a recipe we swore we'd never share. Like your 00:28:34.019 --> 00:28:37.119 secret boiled egg lemon tart recipe. But Eric, 00:28:37.339 --> 00:28:40.839 that was my grandma's secret recipe. Not anymore. 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:44.220 Subscribe to our newsletter where we unveil all 00:28:44.220 --> 00:28:50.609 of Phil's grandmother's secrets. We talked about 00:28:50.609 --> 00:28:53.349 aging, but what other applications can you use 00:28:53.349 --> 00:28:57.910 of enzymes to enhance flavor or to create more 00:28:57.910 --> 00:29:00.869 umami? Is there like any other application that 00:29:00.869 --> 00:29:03.529 you can think of? So aging, obviously, when you're 00:29:03.529 --> 00:29:05.789 talking about aging meat or aging fish, there 00:29:05.789 --> 00:29:09.710 is a benefit. I'd say the most beneficial worldwide 00:29:09.710 --> 00:29:12.569 would have to be the enzymatic reaction that 00:29:12.569 --> 00:29:15.720 happens in the beer making process. or a sacrification, 00:29:15.980 --> 00:29:18.660 where you're taking your malted barley and the 00:29:18.660 --> 00:29:20.339 enzymes in the barley are breaking down the starch 00:29:20.339 --> 00:29:23.319 in the barley to create sugar, which then allows 00:29:23.319 --> 00:29:25.700 for the production of yeast. And it's not necessarily 00:29:25.700 --> 00:29:28.700 beer always, but it just so happens that beer 00:29:28.700 --> 00:29:31.900 is the most popularized version of this for mints. 00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:35.339 But in so many instances with, like chicha, chicha 00:29:35.339 --> 00:29:37.460 is the same thing, is the saliva, the enzymes 00:29:37.460 --> 00:29:39.539 in the saliva break down the starch in the corn 00:29:39.539 --> 00:29:42.160 and that gives you the sugar for the yeast to 00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:46.180 develop alcohol. Like this is, across human history 00:29:46.180 --> 00:29:49.640 i think that is the most most beneficial use 00:29:49.640 --> 00:29:53.299 of enzymes across all cultures because you look 00:29:53.299 --> 00:29:59.180 at sake and um shoju and shochu and all these 00:29:59.180 --> 00:30:01.980 all these spirits that are produced where you 00:30:01.980 --> 00:30:05.839 are like like vodka for example where you're 00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:09.319 you're you're producing sugar from starch and 00:30:09.319 --> 00:30:11.579 then you're using yeast to produce alcohol like 00:30:11.579 --> 00:30:13.829 that's something that goes worldwide But then 00:30:13.829 --> 00:30:17.190 also, specifically in Japan, the production of 00:30:17.190 --> 00:30:20.849 soy sauce, of shoyu, using enzymes that break 00:30:20.849 --> 00:30:22.490 down the proteins, break down the starches into 00:30:22.490 --> 00:30:26.869 sugars and umami. Same with misos. In terms of, 00:30:26.890 --> 00:30:30.329 especially with a miso, you'll get a product 00:30:30.329 --> 00:30:34.069 called tamari, which is rich in both sugar and 00:30:34.069 --> 00:30:36.609 protein. So you can imagine the reason that something 00:30:36.609 --> 00:30:42.970 like a yakitori or a teriyaki chicken glazes 00:30:42.970 --> 00:30:45.769 and browns so beautifully on the grill is because 00:30:45.769 --> 00:30:47.970 you're brushing it with a tamari that is rich 00:30:47.970 --> 00:30:49.589 in both sugar and protein. So that thing is going 00:30:49.589 --> 00:30:52.910 to brown, simultaneously caramelize and have 00:30:52.910 --> 00:30:54.849 the Maillard reaction happen to the proteins 00:30:54.849 --> 00:30:57.210 in the sauce as well. So it's just an engine 00:30:57.210 --> 00:30:59.829 of deliciousness. The way I see it, there are 00:30:59.829 --> 00:31:03.329 still millions of things to be discovered, right? 00:31:03.490 --> 00:31:07.049 Like it's still like a very open universe. It's 00:31:07.049 --> 00:31:10.549 open for so much discovery because For the longest 00:31:10.549 --> 00:31:12.569 time, the people who knew about enzymes, specifically 00:31:12.569 --> 00:31:15.890 about the mechanics of it, were scientists. And 00:31:15.890 --> 00:31:19.009 now for the first time, at least the first time 00:31:19.009 --> 00:31:21.430 that I'm aware of, this knowledge is now being 00:31:21.430 --> 00:31:24.390 spread amongst cooks and chefs as well. For the 00:31:24.390 --> 00:31:26.130 most part, I think scientists are focused on 00:31:26.130 --> 00:31:28.470 the end results, the functionality of things, 00:31:28.549 --> 00:31:30.470 the technical elements. And for the most part, 00:31:30.490 --> 00:31:33.170 chefs are focused on deliciousness and flavor 00:31:33.170 --> 00:31:36.029 and how to make things taste good. So when these 00:31:36.029 --> 00:31:39.289 two trades share information, the cook is going 00:31:39.289 --> 00:31:40.730 to look at it in a different way than the scientist, 00:31:41.049 --> 00:31:43.650 right? And I've noticed this across all of my 00:31:43.650 --> 00:31:48.029 visits with different labs and like different 00:31:48.029 --> 00:31:52.710 vocations where you're inspired by the way that 00:31:52.710 --> 00:31:54.890 these professionals work on things in their day 00:31:54.890 --> 00:31:56.509 -to -day lives. And then they're also inspired 00:31:56.509 --> 00:31:58.130 because like you'll ask a question like, oh, 00:31:58.150 --> 00:32:01.890 I never thought of it that way. Because in my 00:32:01.890 --> 00:32:03.569 personal life, I look at things through the lens 00:32:03.569 --> 00:32:07.589 of cooking. And that's very unique to someone 00:32:07.589 --> 00:32:10.279 who, works in music and they think of things 00:32:10.279 --> 00:32:14.579 through the lens of notes on a staff and a key 00:32:14.579 --> 00:32:18.000 signature. So I think right now is a very exciting 00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:20.519 time because scientists and chefs are starting 00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:22.440 to realize how much they have in common with 00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:25.099 a lot of restaurants like Noma, like Muga Reads 00:32:25.099 --> 00:32:28.380 and countless other ones that have labs that'll 00:32:28.380 --> 00:32:32.000 employ scientists as well. You have this very 00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:35.000 unique opportunity where the two trades can really 00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:38.210 intermingle and then I think best case scenario 00:32:38.210 --> 00:32:42.569 is down the line you have a hybrid chef -scientist 00:32:42.569 --> 00:32:47.170 who is well -versed in both sides of it. I get 00:32:47.170 --> 00:32:50.089 called a scientist by people and I'm quick to 00:32:50.089 --> 00:32:52.410 correct them. I never went to school for biology 00:32:52.410 --> 00:32:55.569 or chemistry or anything like that. I was a pastry 00:32:55.569 --> 00:32:57.650 chef before I came in OMA and then I started 00:32:57.650 --> 00:32:59.029 working in the lab and learning fermentation 00:32:59.029 --> 00:33:01.509 and microorganisms, how do things work, and yeast 00:33:01.509 --> 00:33:03.410 and bacteria and fungus and stuff like that. 00:33:03.509 --> 00:33:05.710 No part of me feels like I truly understand. 00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:08.500 the nitty -gritty scientific end of the process. 00:33:08.740 --> 00:33:11.160 So I think the exciting prospect is that hopefully, 00:33:11.299 --> 00:33:13.660 if this trend continues, we're going to have 00:33:13.660 --> 00:33:16.960 extremely talented cooks with extremely technical 00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:19.900 understanding of the mechanics of cooking. Any 00:33:19.900 --> 00:33:24.539 recommended readings around the topic? Of enzymes? 00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:29.380 Not really in book form. I think if people are 00:33:29.380 --> 00:33:34.089 curious about how enzymes can produce... flavors 00:33:34.089 --> 00:33:36.369 your best bet is going to be like google scholar 00:33:36.369 --> 00:33:39.450 to do an online search for for science papers 00:33:39.450 --> 00:33:41.369 and it's how it sounds so dry like believe me 00:33:41.369 --> 00:33:43.109 when someone told me this i thought it was going 00:33:43.109 --> 00:33:45.069 to be the most boring read ever and then you 00:33:45.069 --> 00:33:48.509 start going down a rabbit hole and you find papers 00:33:48.509 --> 00:33:51.410 about like for example you read a paper about 00:33:51.410 --> 00:33:53.609 how someone enzymatically treated a tempura batter 00:33:53.609 --> 00:33:56.410 and how which way it made the crispiest batter 00:33:56.410 --> 00:33:58.490 for your tempura shrimp and like as soon as it 00:33:58.490 --> 00:34:00.880 clicks in with something that you are curious 00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:02.599 about then you basically you've been eating on 00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:04.359 a rabbit hole so whether it's tempura batter 00:34:04.359 --> 00:34:07.319 like this this viral on instagram you see the 00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:09.760 video of he's a dentist or a doctor or something 00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:12.719 but he's like mold aging tuna mold aging different 00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:15.619 kinds of fish and he has to cut off the the fuzziness 00:34:15.619 --> 00:34:17.380 on the outside and he cuts it and puts it on 00:34:17.380 --> 00:34:18.719 his bowl of rice and eats it in front of the 00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:21.380 camera and whatever it's like that's enzymatic 00:34:21.380 --> 00:34:23.300 and if you're interested in like if you watch 00:34:23.300 --> 00:34:24.599 that video and you're like oh i wonder how that 00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:26.800 what that tastes like like you can go and find 00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:29.039 a paper that will tell you with the mold that 00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:31.780 he's using what enzymes are being produced chances 00:34:31.780 --> 00:34:33.880 are someone's done a study of like different 00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:35.599 kinds of molds on different kinds of fish or 00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:38.519 different kinds of meat and when those molds 00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:40.400 produce certain enzymes that break down certain 00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:42.300 proteins you can find like oh well this one's 00:34:42.300 --> 00:34:44.159 going to have the most umami this one will have 00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:46.519 more of another flavor like to my knowledge there 00:34:46.519 --> 00:34:48.800 doesn't exist a singular book that has all this 00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:51.460 information in it but the the amount of people 00:34:52.279 --> 00:34:54.639 recording and sharing information about these 00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:57.320 kind of studies is surprising on the internet. 00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:00.539 And I think that's where the value really is, 00:35:00.579 --> 00:35:02.719 is a lot of these published scientific papers 00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:04.760 of people who were just really interested in 00:35:04.760 --> 00:35:07.039 crispy shrimp, and they did a paper on tempura. 00:35:08.179 --> 00:35:10.960 Amazing. Thank you so much, Kev. Yeah, thank 00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:21.059 you. Always a pleasure. Now it's time for our 00:35:21.059 --> 00:35:24.099 new segment that we're introducing, Go Fact Yourself, 00:35:24.139 --> 00:35:28.079 where we fact check and untangle cooking myths 00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:33.519 and misconceptions. Go fact yourself. Go fact 00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:41.420 yourself. Adding either copper or cork to the 00:35:41.420 --> 00:35:44.550 boiling water of octopus. They're traditionally 00:35:44.550 --> 00:35:47.250 cooked in copper pots in Portugal and probably 00:35:47.250 --> 00:35:50.989 since Roman times. But, yeah, then I've seen 00:35:50.989 --> 00:35:54.650 chefs adding even, like, copper coins to the 00:35:54.650 --> 00:35:57.929 boiling water because this would generate a reaction 00:35:57.929 --> 00:36:02.989 that makes the octopus softer. Or corks. I've 00:36:02.989 --> 00:36:05.929 cooked a lot of octopus in my life, and at the 00:36:05.929 --> 00:36:08.250 beginning I would do that, and then at some point 00:36:08.250 --> 00:36:10.730 I thought, this is bullshit, and I stopped doing 00:36:10.730 --> 00:36:15.500 it. And, yeah, it makes no difference. Okay, 00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:18.980 I mean, if we think about it, what is the cork 00:36:18.980 --> 00:36:21.760 going to do in the water? Like, physically, chemically, 00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:26.179 nothing. Give it some wood flavor. I do like 00:36:26.179 --> 00:36:28.099 the smell and the taste of corks. I don't know 00:36:28.099 --> 00:36:30.320 why, like, the Rocker brothers haven't made a 00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:32.420 dessert with that yet, honestly. It's interesting. 00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:35.699 I mean, there's so many, like, theories about 00:36:35.699 --> 00:36:37.980 cooking octopus. Like, also there's, like, special 00:36:37.980 --> 00:36:40.679 copper pots, you know, for octopus, right? Yeah, 00:36:40.739 --> 00:36:43.599 it's probably because of that. So you think it's 00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:46.460 bullshit, yeah? I think so, yes. All right, dear 00:36:46.460 --> 00:36:47.739 listeners, it's your time to say the answer. 00:36:48.380 --> 00:36:51.260 Regardless of your current location, embrace 00:36:51.260 --> 00:36:55.579 science, abandon your misconceptions. Answer 00:36:55.579 --> 00:37:00.980 out loud in three, two, one. All right, I'm sorry 00:37:00.980 --> 00:37:04.280 to disappoint if you've been keeping your old 00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:16.980 corks for your octopus boiling. So it is scientifically 00:37:16.980 --> 00:37:20.420 unsupported. It's been proven that adding a cork, 00:37:20.420 --> 00:37:23.340 proving that adding a cork or copper coins to 00:37:23.340 --> 00:37:26.719 water makes little to no difference in the cooking 00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:31.219 time. The only thing that really makes a difference 00:37:31.219 --> 00:37:34.219 is the cooking temperature, the length. And, 00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:36.699 you know, you can tenderize octopus also beforehand. 00:37:36.900 --> 00:37:40.119 But adding cork or copper. Makes no difference 00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:45.340 wrong about cooking Don't get mad get factual