Hi, everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks,
the show where we talk about food and kitchens
from a cook's point of view. We're recording
live from the back of the kitchen, where we eat
your food with our fingers. My name is Silent
Bob, and I'm here with Kevin Smith. Today, we're
talking about enzymes, culinary enzymology, the
invisible forces that actually run your kitchen,
whether you know it or not. But first, you're
listening to Heritage Radio Network. So, Kevin,
when you first started cooking, I imagine enzymes
weren't really on your radar in terms of what
was happening at the physical chemical level.
Do you remember when they became part of how
you think in the kitchen? I mean, so a baseline
with enzymes, my first experiences with enzymes
would have been, you hear about those cultures
that'll use paya or pineapple to tenderize meat,
right? And then growing up as a cook, you're
told like, you can use it to tenderize the meat,
but don't use too much because then it'll start
to digest the meat because the enzymes in the
fruit. So that was kind of... The baseline of
my knowledge is like, I kind of knew what it
was. I knew where you could find it, like you
could find it in papaya and pineapples. And I
knew that in beer brewing, when you're malting
the grains, you're using the enzymes in the grains
themselves to turn the starch into sugars and
that kind of a thing. But it wasn't until joining
Noma and then also understanding the processes
of koji that you kind of... learn more about
enzymes and how they function. And then from
there, it's like a rabbit hole. And he realized
like, oh, okay, like so much of what we take
for granted is because of advancements of technology
of enzymes. For me, it was difficult to even
come up with a definition what enzymes are because
it's very blurry. So basically a way to put it,
in my opinion, would be like, so these are compounds
that are generated by living beings. And they
can be reactive when they get in touch with another
biological thing. But they're not reactive on
their own. There is this traditional Andean drinks,
like in South America, Andeanness, where they
chew corn and they spit it into the brew. And
this... What's it called? It's also the CH, right?
Chicha. Chicha, that's right, yeah. So there
are many things called chicha, but this is a
chicha de jora. And yeah, so the single spit,
the enzymes in the saliva make the corn sweet
much faster. So these enzymes, when they react,
they can accelerate processes. And they work
like, it could be a blender, it could be something
that turns something sweet or more umami, if
you know how to apply them. The easiest way for
me to explain How an enzyme works is if you imagine
when you're cooking, everything you're cooking
is like a room with a whole bunch of locked doors.
And obviously when you're cooking some things,
heat will unlock some doors. Salt will unlock
some doors. But enzymes are one of those things
that it's like this magic key that'll unlock
doors that you didn't think were even possible
to be opened. So like you're saying with chicha,
a cool thing that we used to do as kids in school
was you would eat a cracker or a piece of bread.
in class. And the teacher would say, don't swallow
it, just keep chewing it. And as you chew it,
the enzymes in your saliva would turn the bread
from starchy to sweet. And you begin to taste
sugars. That's the beginning phase of what's
known as saccharification, which is also used
in beer brewing to produce the sugars needed
for yeast to ferment. But also things like your
laundry. So you know how recently there's been
this whole movement of cold water detergent.
Like, wash your laundry in cold water now because
you don't need hot water and hot water damages
the fabric. And that's actually because there
has been developed an enzyme that works in cold
water to dissolve lipids. Because usually you
use hot water to get the oils and the fats out
of your clothes from sweats and things like that.
Do you see enzyme cells? Ingredients, tools,
or processes? I see them as both. At Noma, we'll
use enzymes for, I mean, there's this famous
breakthrough we had where we could turn kombucha
scoby into something edible. Because usually
scoby, it's mostly cellulose, which is what corn,
like, is the outside of a corn kernel. And, like,
wood has cellulose in it as well. It's an undigestible
fiber. And it's very acidic, very pungent, yeah.
And scoby, which is this like jellyfish looking
thing that grows in your kombucha. Every time
you make kombucha, the scoby gets bigger until
eventually you're either giving it away to your
friends or you're throwing it in the garbage.
So we wanted to find a way to make it edible
in a way that wasn't candying, like boiling in
syrup, because that had been done before. And
we started researching into using enzymes and
we would use a cellulase enzyme. So in general
with enzymes, there's like a key legend. for
figuring out enzymes in certain ways so if you
want to break down cellulose the enzyme is called
cellulase the the ending the suffix ase is the
enzyme equivalent of whatever the ingredient
is so you would have for example cellulase you
would have pectinase which breaks down pectin
you have lipase which breaks down fats proteases
which break down proteins and maybe for those
of you listening out there these are all new
words to you but i guarantee you that throughout
eating food, you've encountered the end results
of a lot of enzymatic production. For example,
cheese, right? Like in order to turn milk into
cheese, that's an enzymatic process. So these
are things that are pretty much all over the
food processes that we already know. I was preparing
like some questions for this episode and I, of
course, it came to mind the experience we had
together in... uh in japan because it's completely
related to the topic uh the the yukusei sushi
the aged sushi yeah yukusei sushi so for me it
was uh i was staying in shibuya for one night
and i had a date the next day with kevin and
that night i had a booking on on my own so i
got lost in Shibuya, and then suddenly I was
super late. It was just on a castle place on
a sixth floor. I got lost. I couldn't find the
store, and I came up just on time. It was in
a residential apartment building. Yeah, I came
up just on time. I walk in completely nervous.
I was late. I leave my jacket. I sit down, and
then I look to my left, and Kevin was sitting
there like, hey, hey, what are you doing here?
Just waving. What are you doing here? And so
you had background on this place because I actually,
it was the only omakase I found that looked interesting
and I booked it, but I had no idea that this
place specializes on fish aging, which is in
itself an enzymatic process. What can you tell
about that? Yeah, I mean, so fish aging, I think
recently it's come into vogue a little bit and
it's become popular because, in large part, because
of Josh Nyland and his... His very excellent,
informative cookbooks from his restaurants, St.
Peter in Australia. And for those of you who
haven't read the book or haven't flipped through
it, I do highly recommend reading through it
or following him on Instagram. Because he's kind
of become one of those really influential figures.
He looks at fish in the same way that a lot of
people look at meat. So different ways of butchering,
different ways of cooking. Also different ways
of aging. And what he does in Australia is he
has a butcher shop, but instead of meat, it's
fish. And you have dry aging of fish and multiple
different stages of aging. So I think it's becoming
more popular now. That being said, in Japan,
there's a very long history of aging fish. I
think the myth with sushi is a lot of people
say, oh, sushi has to be the freshest, most screamily,
like fresh off the boat fish. It's true for some
fish, but usually in general, I am generalizing
here, but usually the bigger the fish, the longer
you want it to age. And that means things like
tuna and kueh, which is a very traditional fish
this time of year in Japan. Very popular. These
larger fish, they benefit from sitting in cool
environments and just allowing the natural enzymes
in the meat to slowly begin to tenderize the
meat. and break down proteins into amino acids
and that's how you get to a stage where we were
at that at that meal where we were together and
we're eating these fish that funky always has
a bad connotation but in this case it was funky
and like a rich like complex dry aged beef kind
of a way like there were all these notes that
you wouldn't normally smell in in fresh fish
and at first it can be a bit unnerving and then
you taste it and you realize that all the enzymatic
processes that happen during the aging of the
fish, it's actually tremendously increasing the
umami in the fish and the flavor is much better
for it. Yeah, so basically you mentioned earlier
that in a cooking process that there are doors
where you walk in and you find things. So the
way I see it is, yeah, the fish dies and its
enzymes start breaking down muscle proteins.
And this makes the texture softer. And at the
same time, it produces umami, basically. That's
why it's so interesting for sushi. That's the
science behind like garum and fish sauce, right?
That's why when you blend up a whole bunch of
fish with salt and water, you let it sit in the
sun. That's why it tastes meaty and umami after
a number of weeks or months sitting at room temperature.
And it's because of these enzymes that are breaking
down the proteins into amino acids, one of which
is glutamic acid, which is... The G of MSG. It's
the reason that umami is something that we know
of and we crave. You were saying earlier that
for pectin, you use pectinase. When you're talking
about this substance, what is this? Is this like
a white powder you can buy from a biochemical
company? When it first came out in terms of non
-industrial use in kitchens, this would have
been like 2008, 2009. You had to kind of buy
it from industrial. lab producers but now you
can use like modernist pantries they sell a pectinase
to simplify it you know when you make um strawberry
puree and let's say you want to make a drink
like a strawberry kombucha when you puree strawberries
it's so thick it's not a juice it's a puree or
like mango nectar for example if you put a mango
into a juicer sludge kind of comes out right
and like the yield and that's because pectin
is is cross -linked and is binding to all that
free water so what pectinase does it is it dissolves
that network and then it frees up all the water
so when you if you juice or puree a bunch of
strawberries and then add like i think it's one
percent by weight of this pectin enzyme after
however like if it's a curve right so the warmer
it is the faster the enzyme works if you do it
at room temperature it's a fresher flavor it
just takes longer but whenever it's done the
enzyme's done doing its thing it's like juice
it's water so you just strain it out and then
you have what looks like Kool -Aid like red Kool
-Aid, but it's made a hundred percent out of
strawberries. And this is a lot of bars are using
this. We use it at the restaurant to increase
the yield. We can make a plum juice out of it
where normally a plum has too much pectin. The
yield is really bad. Most people are probably
very familiar with when you buy tinned, uh, tinned
mandarin oranges, the segments and, and the,
um, they're like perfectly peeled. And it's not
like, it's not like Del Monte or Dole. They have
like a factory of elves peeling the little bit
of pith off of every segment of orange. It's
a bath that you actually submerge the oranges
into and the pectinase dissolves all the pith.
Wow, that's fascinating. What was it? This trend
on social media recently where people were showing
photos of like Clementine segments, like perfectly
peeled up all the white. So it was just the perfect
segment. And they're saying like, oh, someday
I wish someone loves me enough that they give
me this perfectly peeled Mandarin segment without
any of like the skin on it. One of the coolest
things I've seen done with pectinase is if you
peel the mandarin, but you keep it together in
the shape, like a whole fruit just peeled, and
then you drop it in the pectinase, you can pull
out all the connected mandarin segments with
none of the pith around it. And it's the trippiest
thing you've ever seen. Phil, do you recommend
podcasts to your friends? All the time. The best
way of showing friends that you care is recommending
a great podcast to listen to. I agree. If you're
listening right now, you should show your love
by recommending our show to all your best friends.
It will make them happy. It will make us happy.
PopLock Food Talks. Tell your friends. It will
make the world a better place. Like recently,
we've been using enzymes, abnoma and fermentation
as like an assistant to the fermentation process.
So for those of you unfamiliar with fermentation
in terms of the way that enzymes work with koji.
So koji produces enzymes naturally through its
growing process. And the enzymes do things like
they break down starch into sugars, they break
down proteins into umami and amino acids. But
a lot of times... The conversion is not a complete
conversion because the more enzymes break down
the starch or the protein, the fewer enzymes
that are around. So eventually it's like a school
dance where everyone's partnered up and you just
have like one or two people kind of circling
around and they don't quite meet. So what we'll
do to alleviate that situation is we'll run the
fermentation, we'll make the shoyu, we'll make
the garam, we'll strain it, and then we will
add an enzyme to it. That enzyme basically cleans
up any leftover unconverted proteins or unconverted
starches. So it's our way of... Ensuring 100
% attenuation, which is a term used for the conversion
from starches, like sacrification from starches
to sugars, or just to ensure that we're not missing
any opportunity. We're not leaving money on the
table, so to speak. Something that took me a
while to learn when I started doing fermentations
on my own, like whatever, you know, like just
doing some lacto -fermented vegetables at home
or my own hot sauces was to... to learn when
was it good enough and then interrupting the
process by pasteurizing. Because it's not like
the most, the better. You have to know when to
stop. And as far as I understand, it's the same
with enzymes. Is there also like ways of interrupting
the enzymatic process and when is the right moment?
For us, it's the same thing as fermentation.
Like you just have to taste it and figure out
when you think it tastes the best. And that's
as simple as like tasting it as it's being converted
and saying it's good. And then five minutes later,
it's even better than it was. And five minutes
later after that, it's even better than it was.
And then getting to a point where you see that
it's kind of, it won't get worse, but it'll just
kind of plateau. And then you're just wasting
time, right? When there's nothing being converted,
it's just kind of sitting there. So intuition,
flavor, but also if it's a case of pectinase,
when you're straining your plums, your plum puree
or what have you, the yield is also a good indicator.
If you got maximum, conversion because if you
if you're straining the plums and the amount
of juice that comes out isn't as much as it usually
is then you know oh i probably didn't leave it
on the enzyme for long enough or maybe it got
a bit like if i do it at room temperature maybe
room temperature today is a few degrees cooler
than it is normally and that can affect the conversion
rate of the enzyme like how many different enzymes
do you have on your toolbox like let's say in
the lab we're in a very privileged position uh
at noma where we've just begun a partnership
with a company called Novanessus. And Novanessus
is, I believe, the largest producer of microcultures
in the world. When Dave left Noma, he went to
work for a company called Christian Hansen, and
they developed the yeast that creates beer. There's
a type of yeast called Saccharomyces carlsberginus,
and this is the company that isolated the beer
-making yeast. And eventually this company got
amalgamated with Novozymes, which was the enzyme
production side of things. And they created this
company called Novanesis. And we just began a
partnership with them because Noma and Novanesis
are, in addition to having similar names, they're
both Danish entities. Well, and they've been
working for a long time in Noma, right? Yeah.
And with them, we have access to their labs and
their equipment and like very specialist equipment
that... We'll do the one thing really, really
well, but it's not something that we would use
every day at the restaurant. So we can't really
justify spending tens of thousands of euros on
it. And then with us, they have an outlet of
creative people who can take their abstract enzymes
that they create. They're like, you know, this
converts proteins into amino acids, but they're
not chefs. They don't necessarily know how to
use that in the most delicious way. So they partner
up with us so that we take. The cool stuff that
they're doing, we do cool things with it. And
they benefit from people being able to see the
benefit of the work that this company is doing.
So because of this partnership, we have as many
as 12 different enzyme and enzyme cocktails on
hand at Noma. Everything from the pectin X or
the pectinase that I was talking about, proteases
that break down proteins to lipases that break
down fats. Yeah, there's a whole... a whole library
like a lot of them we don't even have yet they
have a designated a designated enzyme guru who
he'll fly from Germany or from France to us if
we have a question and he'll work on things with
us at the the Novanesis lab in Copenhagen on
things like I mean we both worked fine dining
like you know like when you have to peel walnuts
like the skin of the walnut oh yes of course
I do and it takes like 30 interns like an hour
and you think about all that time it takes like
then we're like well what if there was some kind
of enzyme that similar to the mandarin orange
you just dump a whole bunch of walnuts into this
bath of water and then it dissolves the skin
you just pull up perfectly whole white peeled
walnuts we're in denmark in scandinavia and they
have the the teeny tiny little shrimp that we
will have the serving on the menu and it's all
hand peeled and it takes a long time to peel
enough shrimp for everyone's portion every day
and we're like well what if there was an enzyme
you just drop all the shells and all the shrimps
with the shells on into and then 15 minutes later
you'll lift out your perfectly peeled shrimp
part of this new relationship that we have with
this company that we're really excited about
is the potential of not only to save time and
save labor but also to take things that were
previously thought to be impossible to do and
just you know not to make them super easy but
just If the impossible looks only difficult,
then we've already succeeded. What is David Silber
doing? NovoNesis is the new name of the company?
Yeah, NovoNesis. Yeah, I visited his lab. I think
it was still Christian Hansen. But it's a beautiful
lab in the middle of the forest. It's like a
dream workspace, absolutely. He's working away
with them. Also, trying to collaborate with other
restaurants and interested parties and things
like that. I think... This is just me speculating.
In no way do I speak on behalf of Novanessus,
but I think what they're looking for is to become,
not popular, but to become known to people that
this is what their contribution to the world
is. Because everyone looks at, like I said, cold
water detergent and they're like, oh, cool. My
heating bill is going to be less now that I'm
using cold water detergent because my laundry
machine doesn't need to use hot water anymore.
And I think a lot of what Dave does and other
individuals at this company do is they're kind
of trying to fill that gap of knowledge to be
like, okay, well, the reason that you don't longer
have to use hot water is because we've developed
this enzyme that dissolves fat at lower temperature.
So it saves you money in laundry. And then beyond
that, now that people understand the process,
then they can start thinking, well, what other
instances do I need to dissolve fat at low temperatures
or dissolve other things in other, Other entities,
like a protease, for example, we think of it
as like fish sauce, like turning a blended up
squid or blended up shrimp into an umami rich
sauce. But like the first proteases were for
hospitals. When you're operating, you get blood
on all the clothes and the smocks that you have
to get them laundered. They were having trouble
getting the blood out of the clothes, the laundromat.
So this enzyme dissolves the protein in the blood
and then that's how they end up. With the functionality
on that end, it just took a chef to be like,
oh, well, we can use that to make a really good
sauce bordelaise because you can make a beef
garam using this enzyme and then add that into
your bordelaise in addition to the beef stock.
That thing you just mentioned, does that exist?
Like dissolving fat on cold temperatures? Is
that possible today with enzymes? Yeah, that's
like every cold water detergent is a cold water
detergent because it has this enzyme in it. Okay.
So basically what you use to clean your pots,
that already contains that. Yeah. Okay. Now I
get what you said, that many of the innovations
that are in our everyday life are equipped with
enzymes. Because of enzymes and you don't even
know it. What about maturing fruits? Is this
also something where you can use, where enzymes
deliberately... I'd rather do the process. The
maturation of fruit. So I guess you're referring
to when people say you want to ripen an avocado
quickly, you put it in a paper bag with a banana
or something like that. The gas that ripens fruit
and is a signifier to the fruit that it needs
to ripen and start producing sugar and softening
and texture is called ethylene. And a lot of
fruit suppliers, what they'll do is they'll have
their big room of all the apples that they've
picked under ripe and then they'll have picked
for the entire season. But obviously there's
way too many apples for anyone to buy. all of
them before they go rotten. So what they'll do
is they'll keep them in storage. And then as
they need to ripen, they will introduce ethylene
gas into the room to ripen the specified amount
that they want to ripen. And that way they can
control their own workflow so that they're not
worried about... That's why you never see avocados
for 25 cents each for a week because... All the
avocados are ripe and they got to sell now because
otherwise they're just going to go in the garbage.
The companies have used this system to moderate
the rate at which fruit ripens. Yeah, I've heard
that if you're eating an apple, it was probably
picked eight months before you're eating it.
Yeah, because that's a good example of enzymes
and science being used from like a... a capitalism
point of view, like, because that's how you ensure
that all your customers have access to apples
all times of the year. So you maximize revenue
because you have the supply. You just need to
moderate the demand. And that's why, like, if
you go to a farmer's market where you get an
apple picked right off the tree that morning,
it's going to taste better. Someone told me once
that if New Yorkers bought only from a farmer's
market and instead of using the big box shops
and the large stores like Whole Foods, the There'd
be a collapse in the food system because the
amount of trucks that would have to come in from
farms in order to feed all the people of New
York would clog up highways. No one could get
in or out. So as villainized as like the big
box stores are for doing things like these apples
that are picked eight months ago, I think it's
also a necessary thing to ensure that there is
a food supply. It doesn't completely fall apart
when things are not in season or when things
are getting overripe. I think it would be for
a very volatile market. Yeah, no, no, no. I completely
agree. Feeding the people is the first thing.
Feeding them nice would be second, right? Yeah.
What about mead glutamines? I remember this was
kind of like 20, 15 years ago. Is it still a
thing or not so much? I mean, I can tell you
that it was used very recently. um at restaurant
noma for for staff meal so i'm in i'm in la right
now so i'm i'm not in copenhagen but they do
christmas lunch right so we just closed for christmas
break and the last staff meal before the break
is like a christmas themes like you do roast
and potatoes and cabbage and like the traditional
meal and the traditional roast in denmark is
a pork roast with the skin on so you get the
crispy skin and Usually it's either pork neck
or pork belly or pork loin. But what happened
was, I guess they ordered the pork and it came
in and someone, the butcher had like accidentally
butterflied the pork. So it wasn't going to roast
properly because it was a huge like, I don't
know, it just was not so even. So they glued
it back together. Yeah, so they transglutaminased
it back together. And then like it looked phenomenal
afterwards. No one will ever know. that you use
the meat glue, but then also like the cross section
where I was like, well, no one will ever know
what part of the pig that was either. Cause like
the muscle, the muscle patterning was all off
cause you tell it, it kind of shoved it together
and, and set it. Um, but that is also an enzyme,
you know, I was coming up and I know you were
coming up in kitchens and in cooking in the heyday
of, of transglutaminase and, and Activa. It was,
it was always villainized cause people would
say, well, you can just take like little bits
of beef and then glue it together and sell it
as. filet mignon or something or make a frankenstein
of the different monsters and yeah exactly and
like there is novelty and it was fun to think
of it like that but like i know um wiley dufresne
had these famous i believe they were shrimp noodles
i was going to say exactly that in the shrimp
noodles yeah and he would like extrude it into
hot water That was so cool for me. That was the
best application I saw. Basically, it was shrimp
puree, like raw shrimp, and then pressed like
spaghetti. And you had like this 100 % shrimp
spaghetti. I think that's genius. And you would
serve it like just with a tomato sauce and basil.
So that it looked like a very normal pasta, just
that it was like 100 % shrimp pasta or prawn
or whatever it was. I thought it was the coolest
thing. I lament how little it is used today,
but it was one of those ingredients that was
so demonized when it was popular that people
are almost afraid to use it or afraid to say
that they use it. Like I know Corey Lee at Bennu,
he had a tofu recipe where he would use the transglutaminase
to make sure that the tofu or make sure the proteins
in the soy milk would stick together when it
would sit. So that's how you ensure you had a
very even consistency. When you explain the dish
or whatever, You would never explain it as like,
oh, and this is a transglutaminase glued piece
of whatever. It was just a tool. It was like
you had to get from A to B, and this was the
tool that got you there. Yeah, exactly. You don't
say, for example, that whatever, the thickener
you use for the sauce. Yeah, we use some xanthan
on this sauce. Nobody says that, you know? Or
like kuzu this or kuzu that. I mean, the Japanese
use so much kuzu. It's like arrowroot starch
or whatever. That's how you get that luxurious
silky texture in the sauce. But they don't tell
you this because to them it's just like an ingredient.
It's like this is just the way that this texture
is achieved and that's what we do it. Hey Phil,
have you subscribed to our newsletter yet? We
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Subscribe to our newsletter where we unveil all
of Phil's grandmother's secrets. We talked about
aging, but what other applications can you use
of enzymes to enhance flavor or to create more
umami? Is there like any other application that
you can think of? So aging, obviously, when you're
talking about aging meat or aging fish, there
is a benefit. I'd say the most beneficial worldwide
would have to be the enzymatic reaction that
happens in the beer making process. or a sacrification,
where you're taking your malted barley and the
enzymes in the barley are breaking down the starch
in the barley to create sugar, which then allows
for the production of yeast. And it's not necessarily
beer always, but it just so happens that beer
is the most popularized version of this for mints.
But in so many instances with, like chicha, chicha
is the same thing, is the saliva, the enzymes
in the saliva break down the starch in the corn
and that gives you the sugar for the yeast to
develop alcohol. Like this is, across human history
i think that is the most most beneficial use
of enzymes across all cultures because you look
at sake and um shoju and shochu and all these
all these spirits that are produced where you
are like like vodka for example where you're
you're you're producing sugar from starch and
then you're using yeast to produce alcohol like
that's something that goes worldwide But then
also, specifically in Japan, the production of
soy sauce, of shoyu, using enzymes that break
down the proteins, break down the starches into
sugars and umami. Same with misos. In terms of,
especially with a miso, you'll get a product
called tamari, which is rich in both sugar and
protein. So you can imagine the reason that something
like a yakitori or a teriyaki chicken glazes
and browns so beautifully on the grill is because
you're brushing it with a tamari that is rich
in both sugar and protein. So that thing is going
to brown, simultaneously caramelize and have
the Maillard reaction happen to the proteins
in the sauce as well. So it's just an engine
of deliciousness. The way I see it, there are
still millions of things to be discovered, right?
Like it's still like a very open universe. It's
open for so much discovery because For the longest
time, the people who knew about enzymes, specifically
about the mechanics of it, were scientists. And
now for the first time, at least the first time
that I'm aware of, this knowledge is now being
spread amongst cooks and chefs as well. For the
most part, I think scientists are focused on
the end results, the functionality of things,
the technical elements. And for the most part,
chefs are focused on deliciousness and flavor
and how to make things taste good. So when these
two trades share information, the cook is going
to look at it in a different way than the scientist,
right? And I've noticed this across all of my
visits with different labs and like different
vocations where you're inspired by the way that
these professionals work on things in their day
-to -day lives. And then they're also inspired
because like you'll ask a question like, oh,
I never thought of it that way. Because in my
personal life, I look at things through the lens
of cooking. And that's very unique to someone
who, works in music and they think of things
through the lens of notes on a staff and a key
signature. So I think right now is a very exciting
time because scientists and chefs are starting
to realize how much they have in common with
a lot of restaurants like Noma, like Muga Reads
and countless other ones that have labs that'll
employ scientists as well. You have this very
unique opportunity where the two trades can really
intermingle and then I think best case scenario
is down the line you have a hybrid chef -scientist
who is well -versed in both sides of it. I get
called a scientist by people and I'm quick to
correct them. I never went to school for biology
or chemistry or anything like that. I was a pastry
chef before I came in OMA and then I started
working in the lab and learning fermentation
and microorganisms, how do things work, and yeast
and bacteria and fungus and stuff like that.
No part of me feels like I truly understand.
the nitty -gritty scientific end of the process.
So I think the exciting prospect is that hopefully,
if this trend continues, we're going to have
extremely talented cooks with extremely technical
understanding of the mechanics of cooking. Any
recommended readings around the topic? Of enzymes?
Not really in book form. I think if people are
curious about how enzymes can produce... flavors
your best bet is going to be like google scholar
to do an online search for for science papers
and it's how it sounds so dry like believe me
when someone told me this i thought it was going
to be the most boring read ever and then you
start going down a rabbit hole and you find papers
about like for example you read a paper about
how someone enzymatically treated a tempura batter
and how which way it made the crispiest batter
for your tempura shrimp and like as soon as it
clicks in with something that you are curious
about then you basically you've been eating on
a rabbit hole so whether it's tempura batter
like this this viral on instagram you see the
video of he's a dentist or a doctor or something
but he's like mold aging tuna mold aging different
kinds of fish and he has to cut off the the fuzziness
on the outside and he cuts it and puts it on
his bowl of rice and eats it in front of the
camera and whatever it's like that's enzymatic
and if you're interested in like if you watch
that video and you're like oh i wonder how that
what that tastes like like you can go and find
a paper that will tell you with the mold that
he's using what enzymes are being produced chances
are someone's done a study of like different
kinds of molds on different kinds of fish or
different kinds of meat and when those molds
produce certain enzymes that break down certain
proteins you can find like oh well this one's
going to have the most umami this one will have
more of another flavor like to my knowledge there
doesn't exist a singular book that has all this
information in it but the the amount of people
recording and sharing information about these
kind of studies is surprising on the internet.
And I think that's where the value really is,
is a lot of these published scientific papers
of people who were just really interested in
crispy shrimp, and they did a paper on tempura.
Amazing. Thank you so much, Kev. Yeah, thank
you. Always a pleasure. Now it's time for our
new segment that we're introducing, Go Fact Yourself,
where we fact check and untangle cooking myths
and misconceptions. Go fact yourself. Go fact
yourself. Adding either copper or cork to the
boiling water of octopus. They're traditionally
cooked in copper pots in Portugal and probably
since Roman times. But, yeah, then I've seen
chefs adding even, like, copper coins to the
boiling water because this would generate a reaction
that makes the octopus softer. Or corks. I've
cooked a lot of octopus in my life, and at the
beginning I would do that, and then at some point
I thought, this is bullshit, and I stopped doing
it. And, yeah, it makes no difference. Okay,
I mean, if we think about it, what is the cork
going to do in the water? Like, physically, chemically,
nothing. Give it some wood flavor. I do like
the smell and the taste of corks. I don't know
why, like, the Rocker brothers haven't made a
dessert with that yet, honestly. It's interesting.
I mean, there's so many, like, theories about
cooking octopus. Like, also there's, like, special
copper pots, you know, for octopus, right? Yeah,
it's probably because of that. So you think it's
bullshit, yeah? I think so, yes. All right, dear
listeners, it's your time to say the answer.
Regardless of your current location, embrace
science, abandon your misconceptions. Answer
out loud in three, two, one. All right, I'm sorry
to disappoint if you've been keeping your old
corks for your octopus boiling. So it is scientifically
unsupported. It's been proven that adding a cork,
proving that adding a cork or copper coins to
water makes little to no difference in the cooking
time. The only thing that really makes a difference
is the cooking temperature, the length. And,
you know, you can tenderize octopus also beforehand.
But adding cork or copper. Makes no difference
wrong about cooking Don't get mad get factual