Hi, everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks,
the show where we talk about food and kitchens
from a cook's point of view. We're recording
live from Arab Emirates. My name is Eric Estrada,
and I'm here with my friend, Philip Kaufman.
And today we're going to talk about trash. But
first, you're listening to Heritage Radio Network.
We're talking about trash. I didn't realize we
were going to do an episode on Tim Rauer. Can
you remember the first time you turned waste
into a dish that surprised yourself? Not me personally,
but you know what I remember, what I was really
cool? You remember this fond barigoul at Mago?
Ah, yeah, that was like a cool fond, a cool sauce.
Yeah, like a veggie demi -glace sort of, or like
a root vegetable demi -glace, something like
that, right? I mean, it was when we reduced it.
It was, more than anything, a very extremely
nice vegetable stock. Almost like a nage. Probably
the nicest vegetable stock since today that I've
ever tried. For sure. I've made it a couple of
times at home also. The clue there was the mix
of vegetables, right? If you had too much of
one thing, it would be too sweet. But you had
to get the balance right. And it would change
throughout the year also, obviously, because
the vegetables change. So we had the Barrigou
in summer and then we had something that we call
autumn stock in autumn. And then when you got
that, you got this like very thick, deep, like
orange. stock it was amazing it was so delicious
and then we reduced that down to that glaze that
we put on the vegetable dish right on the gargoyle
but what i'm referencing is that at some point
in that restaurant we took all this cooked out
veg that was left over from the stock and normally
you throw that away because a lot of this flavor
has seeped out it's super super overcooked there's
not much that you can do with that right But
I don't know if you remember this or if this
happened while you were there or if you had already
left. But at some point we, because we were throwing
away all these vegetables, Michael Hoffman came
up with this idea that instead we would keep
it and we would put it through a mincer like
you would mince beef on a coarse setting. We'd
mince all these vegetables down and then we would
season this coarsely minced vegetable mix with
cold pressed mustard seed oil. Very nice vinegar,
like the cucumber vinegar and the tomato vinegar
that you probably remember. These like beautiful
bottles from this Austrian vinegar producer.
Very good Il Casona olive oil, salt and fresh
herbs. And we would make what we call a tapenade,
like an olive tapenade, but instead of olives,
it was the cooked out vegetables. And we would
press it into like little molds and serve it
together with the butter for the bread course.
So people would get a little... disc of French
salted butter, and they would get a little disc
of tapenade that they could smear on their bread.
And it was really delicious. That was a really
smart way of using the vegetables. That was part
of my mission plus for a while. I worked in the
Gartmanger for a while. So I was doing like that
tapenade. Yeah, that was really, really nice.
You know, like, but also in general, that baguette.
was also like where all the scraps of the vegetables
will would end up also at some point yeah yeah
just you just have to be like careful i remember
at some point in my first year at margot like
i was like just like i had some like peels and
i like started throwing i threw like one thing
in the pot and then like another thing then like
a third thing and at some point i don't remember
who was on the source here They turned around,
they're sort of like, can you stop throwing random
shits in my stock pot? Like there's a very delicate
balance happening here and you're fucking it
up, you know, like don't throw anything in there
anymore. But yeah, what I wanted to talk about
today is, yeah, upcycling. You know, this term
has become trendy in the recent years, also known
as waste cooking or doing things that are delicious
with stuff you would normally throw away. I also
remember a Spanish restaurant where I worked
in Germany. They would do this cod buñuelos.
Basically like a savory choux paste with cod
that you would fry and you would have like this,
you know, like this crispy puffed croquettes
made with cod. And the cooking water of the cod
was thrown away every day, you know? And this
is basically a fish stock. I mean, at least you
said... uh for staff meal or whatever to do like
a super nice rice or like a super nice fish stew
you know like i've seen this also a lot like
in in restaurants that have this way of thinking
at the end of the day i would say like it's a
like like a lazy way of doing things because
like you know like throwing away chicken carcasses
and then buying chicken carcasses for for your
stock i've seen this and i've heard this also
happening for even very very good restaurants
you know like where they would you know like
take a very special part of whatever and throw
away the rest because they don't need it you
know like i don't know is there anything that
like any piece of food like meat or vegetable
that that you would say like it's underrated
there's a difficult question to to answer because
there's A lot of people nowadays that have like,
you know, used to like approach things with like
a nose to tail kind of approach, you know. I
would say lamb belly is one of those things,
you know, like the belly flap of a lamb. There's
not a lot of meat, but there's like connective
tissue and fats. So it's kind of like a pork
belly. Pork belly is nice and meaty and streaky,
you know. The lamb belly is just like very thin
and flappy. But in Mugaritz, we would do this
thing. If you would get it right, it was very
nice where you would kind of like brush it and
bake it and it would like souffle up like a millefeuille,
like an hojaldre. That was really nice. Or, you
know, just like very simple. There's this restaurant
in London called Silk Road that do Sichuanese
food. They would make skewers, these like very
long skewers with like stacked lamb belly cut
like very square and then just grilled. Just
grilled with like the seasoning of like chili
powder, roasted chili powder and cumin. fuck
man you would get like a couple of metal skewers
like that very thin very long like super crispy
fatty as amazing you know i love that like you
know this upcycling idea because it's it's a
mixture of things right it's for one respectful
to the product right like how horrible just to
use the tenderloin of the cow and then like what
do you do with the fucking rest you just dice
it up for burgers you know it's fucking horrible
but also it's skillful if you as a restaurant
you get a whole animal in and you only use the
tenderloins and the shoulders and the legs you're
wasting a you know, like a fuck ton of money.
It's also kind of like a little bit of a challenge
to yourself as a craftsman to be sort of like,
well, what can I do? You know, actually, that
brings me to one thing. I think we mentioned
it on a podcast before. I think one of the most
underrated pieces on an animal's head. Mexicans
know this. Mexicans know this very well. Tacos
de cabeza, you know. But I also really vividly
remember when you and I roasted a pork head in
your house, in your apartment in Berlin. And
it was fucking amazing. It was like... I had
no idea what we were doing. It turned out to
be some of the most delicious pork I've ever
tried. I've been thinking about those dinner
parties that we would do, or dinner parties or
culinary experiments that we would do back then.
Because recently I started doing some, I told
you, like some house dinner parties. And I haven't
done this in a long while. Yet at the same time,
I remember doing this way more when I was completely
broke. I'm doing fine, you know, like, I don't
do it that much more, you know, and it doesn't
hurt that much as back then where I would just,
you know, fuck it, spend my whole savings, life
savings in a dinner and invite my friends, you
know. But yeah, like, it's a nice thing. Yeah,
I remember doing that head. That we cooked it
in apple juice with a nice bed of vegetables.
I think we poured some beer on top of it also.
Makes sense. Yeah. And it was amazing. I remember
it was super nice. I mean, at the end of the
day, the best meat is always the one that is
near to the bone. And there you have like a lot
of things going on near the bone. A lot of fat,
a lot of connective tissue. Yeah. I remember
that we ate the gums, you know, the gums of like
the... Your friend that was with us, I don't
remember his name, but he was like, oh, yeah,
Delicacy. You know, he was talking a lot of bullshit,
this guy. But I remember we were trying it. I
don't remember who this was who said this about
the gums. But I do remember it was Joachim Wessler,
the chef of Vendome, that he would say he would
do like from the Iberian pork, like a very strange
cut. I don't remember, but it was something really
strange. I mean, this guy is one of my favorite
German chefs. No? You don't like him? Yeah, no,
no, no, absolutely. I'm just thinking armpits.
It sounds to me like, you know, the other day
I saw somebody put something on the menu, and
it was like, oh, king crab shoulder. And I'm
like, what the fuck do you mean, king crab shoulder?
Or was it called knuckle or something? But it
looked cool when it was written on the menu.
And then I was kind of thinking, it's like, man,
you know, we just call things whatever the fuck
we want nowadays, no? Like king crab shoulder.
Like, you mean the upper part of the leg? Like,
you just call it the shoulder and that's it?
But I remember, I mean, you just mentioned calling
some leftovers from your vegetable stock, seasoning
it and calling it tapenade. You know, like, and
I remember also when 20 years ago, when I started
in culinary school, people would have this discussion,
you know, I went to this restaurant and they
gave me this thing and they call it, tomato tartare.
That was just a fucking tomato salad. Why do
you call it a tomato tartare? Fair enough. The
way you call things creates an expectation and
a predisposition to what you're going to try.
And for example, these tribes that you get at
Bordaberry, these caught tribes, this part is
actually the swimming bladder of the fish that
has nothing to do with urine. It's the thing
that... blows so the fish can swim up and down
yes once you mention that before you're going
to eat it's like you know it generates a very
bad it's true anticipation and previous position
and it's more likely that people won't like it
you know like with that with that information
that is actually um a very good point i remember
mentioning this before but the best thing that
i ate during my time in was a dish that that
i'm on perisse made in autumn In hunting season.
And he made a stew with snipe and tripe de bacalao.
Oh, nice. Like a surf and turf game kind of thing.
And you had this like dark chocolatey game stew
kind of thing with the like gelatinous sticky
texture and the like bacalao flavor, the kind
of funk going on. And I remember tasting this
and it's like it was a tiny, tiny dish of like,
you know, just a couple of pieces. And I remember
tasting this and being like, man, this is real
high -level gourmet cooking right here. And I
remember thinking to myself, man, I wish there
were more dishes like this on the menu here,
you know? These guys, they really know how to
treat game and these little birds that are part
of, like, a lesser -known part of the culinary
culture here. I think the one that is really
embracing that right now is Edorta Lamo from
Arrea, south of the Basque Country. His restaurant
focuses, yeah, just on game. They call it furtivism
because there is some furtive hunting going on
around that. Okay, okay, cool. Phil, do you recommend
podcasts to your friends? All the time. The best
way of showing friends that you care is recommending
a great podcast to listen to. I agree. If you're
listening right now, you should show your love
by recommending our show to all your best friends.
It will make them happy. It will make us happy.
PopLock Food Talks. Tell your friends. It will
make the world a better place. For me, a very
good example of upcycling, and a very common
one, and one that you will see in homes, the
first step of upcycling, which is taking something
that normally is thrown away, the main stem of
a broccoli. It's very common for people to cut
the flowers, throw the stem away, just out of
laziness of doing something with it. And out
of not knowing. You know, because you can do
like very easy stuff. You know, you spoil it
or throw it into or cut it really small and saute
it and do like a stir fried rice, you know, like
or doing like a cream or whatever. Yeah. Even
peeling it, cutting it like super thin slices,
putting it in a salad raw is like really nice.
I remember like being on a barbecue once and.
It was somebody who just staged at Noma and they
were making a broccoli stem, like a chunky broccoli
stem, like grilled and just kind of like brushing
with butter and grilling it and grilling until
it was cooked through. And it was fucking delicious,
man. It was so good. It's so interesting, right?
Because we think like, why do you throw broccoli
stems away? Why? Have you thought about it? Like,
do you, have you actually looked at what's in
front of you and thought to yourself, oh, is
this edible? Is this not? No, it's just kind
of like a learned behavior, right? I use the
florets and the rest I throw away. But like,
why? And that kind of like makes me think, because
when you think about it objectively, there's
no reason for you to think that you should throw
this away. There's not really. Because you can
peel it, the inside is tender, it's tasty, there's
nothing bad about it. And that often makes me
think, how many things are there that I am doing
out of learned behavior instead of actually looking
what's in front of me and thinking about, like
thinking outside of the box. And that often happens
when we see things from other cooking cultures
where we see like, oh, they do this with that.
You know, oh, that's so interesting. And you're
kind of thinking, why have I never thought of
that? It's kind of like, well, because you're
in a sort of like cultural autopilot where you're
just kind of going on with the way that you've
been taught instead of looking at it with a mind
like you're in a new planet. You're in a new
planet. You've seen things that you've never
seen before. You have no cultural. connotation
you have no connection to traditions or dishes
or whatever you simply go by what you see in
front of you i think that's a that's a very good
practice to do as a as a chef i mean like i've
seen a lot of things i mean working in food innovation
i've seen like a lot of things done with um food
waste um for example uh doing kombuchas we we
used coffee grounds or even growing mushrooms
in used coffee grounds, mixing it with hay, but
also using like the peels of vegetables and doing
vinegar with that. Like at least the way I think
now, and I'm not saying this is, I'm not preaching
or evangelizing or anything. It's just like a
personal preference. I'm not a fan of doing vinegars.
I think it's very time demanding and the result
is like at least not, for example, doing vinegars
with carrot peels or something like that. Instead,
I would, you know, like take a vinegar that is
already made and infuse it with this or something
like that. I think that the technical complexity
is way lower. But I remember trying, for example,
very good self -made vinegars with, for example,
with plantain. with bananas, like really, really
nice, the dark vinegars. And the other thing
that has become like also relatively trendy is
doing garums, you know, like, but for that you
need like, again, like some, first of all, a
space, like a smell safe space. You don't want
to do that in your living room. No, necessarily
no. No. If you have like a wine cellar or something
like that, it's perfect because nobody cares
about the smell inside a cellar or like a storage
room. Yeah, because it will smell like fish sauce,
like the space where you're doing it. Or at least
it will have that width in the air. But yeah,
I was in this place called the Wakan in Kuala
Lumpur. They got two Michelin stars and they
call it like the Noma of Southeast Asia. And
the sous chef, was he the sous chef? Yeah, he
was the sous chef. He was so kind to show us
around. And they made garros with all the fish,
all the seafood scrap, you know, squid, fish,
different kind of stuff. So they would just ferment
it and do like fish sauces with all this stuff.
I think that also adds like an identity layer
to your cooking that brings it to a next level.
You know, like when I was in this place, Ultramarines
Marina in Barcelona, they would have just salt
and garum in the grill station, you know, like,
and everything would have like some drops of
garum on top, like super, super nice. But I think
doing those kinds of things, like... fermenting
stuff and turning it into condiments, you know,
like also dehydrating, you know, dehydrating
and doing powders with stuff you would normally
throw away and doing salts with that. You know,
there's like a lot of things that you can do
with the stuff that you're normally throwing
away. 100 % I agree that like I think garums
are one of the most underrated still one of the
most underrated tools in the kitchen you know
it's like a little secret weapon it's a little
like secret sort of little sprinkle of crack
that you can put in anything that you want you
know and people are really like can't really
place it and I think people should be less scared
of trying to make garums themselves you know
like it's a I get it it's a fucked up idea of
just like taking fish with their guts and like
whatever and like all the it's disgusting like
i mean don't get me wrong if you take sardines
with all the guts you add salt you puree the
whole shit it's not going to be nice not going
to smell nice like but you need to give it time
And then just like, you know, if you have a balcony
or a cellar, like wherever, you know, just like,
just give it a go because it's really, really
nice. Fish garum, a little bit easier than like
meat garum. You can accelerate the whole and
like make it more complex with the use of Koji,
but there already you need a lot more knowledge
and it's a lot more technical because Koji is
very, like very dramatic in a way. Like it gets
fucked up pretty easily. I mean, or, or going
again, like you can buy a shelf stable Koji.
You know, like a dehydrated koji and use that
instead. Of course, it's not going to be better
than the freshly self -made, but it will save
you maybe thousands of hours of learning and
mistakes and even equipment. You know, like you
need some decent incubators to create your own
koji. Even if these are like homemade incubators,
you're going to need those, right? Yeah, yeah,
absolutely. That's I think one of the most difficult
things at home to have a stable temperature.
But I mean, if you do, you know, like if you
have some garum, it's so cool. Like in Berlin,
I used to do this thing where like every meat
that I had, like for example, like say I have
deer loin. About like two hours before service,
I would brush it in some meat garum and just
leave it. And then right before service, just
like pat it dry a little bit. So it's not like
swimming in garum. And so it was like very lightly
marinated. And then afterwards you would just
grill it, brush it with brown butter, rest it,
slice it. And I swear to you, I mean, it was
good quality meat anyway, but it's like it took
the flavor of the meat from here to here. And
people aren't able to place it. They're sort
of like, why is this so tasty? And also it works
as a tenderizer in a way, you know. But people
taste it and they're sort of like, man, why is
this so tasty? Do you remember the anchovies
that we had at Muka? You know, with a little
bit of anchovy garam. and lemon zest and olive
oil. Like, I mean, how fucking crazy was that?
And it's this little sort of like, oh, I can't
really place it. It's just like this deep umami.
It's fucking amazing. It's really, really underrated.
This day that I went to this Josh Nyland dinner
with Sebastian Pincheira from Kai Sushi, he told
me he did a collaboration with Juan Vargas from
Mucha. And he tried this anchovies, you know,
this marinated anchovies and garum. And, I mean,
he's a sushi chef. Logically, first thing that
came to his mind, like, I need to do a nigiri
with this. You know, like, I need to do this.
And when he actually did it for the pop -up dinner
and he gave it to Juan to taste it, he tells
me that Juan went like this. completely shocked
like for a complete minute i mean like i can't
mentally taste that and i cannot really say that
that's to be incredible you know like absolutely
with that stuff it's fucking amazing and i mean
like this uh it's my favorite type of like sushi
nigiri etc it's like sardines mackerel all the
bluefish i fucking love it man Hey Phil, have
you subscribed to our newsletter yet? We have
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of Phil's grandmother's secrets. And also something
I think that is like an important clarification
and like a very common misconception. I don't
know why, because it doesn't make any sense.
Like cooking with waste doesn't mean taking stuff
that you would throw away because it's already
on the bad side and try to make something delicious
out of it. No, no, no, that's already, you know,
it's like taking your fresh, good produce. the
parts you're not going to use and doing something
amazing with that. And I think that's something
that should be very present. If it's already
on the bad side, do a staff meal or whatever,
or eat it, but don't expect it to get better.
That's not going to happen. Did you see this
clip of Massimo Rottura saying that all his restaurants
are zero -waste certified? Yeah. What a load
of fucking bullshit. Can we just say anything
that we fucking want nowadays? Like, can I have
my six -year -old son cut out a couple of stars
from fucking colored paper and like stick them
to me and say I'm a five Michelin star chef?
I added two stars to the roster. What the fuck
is that? There's no fucking way. You know how
many restaurants try to be like zero waste certified?
And like that actually do like places like Silo.
which is now sadly closing, or Amass, you know,
where they were making like biscuits out of coffee
grounds and all that sort of stuff. And he's
like, zero waste. They cook with the trash because
that makes us a family. I said, man, shut the
fuck up, bro. What's the name of the chef from
Amass? Matt Orlando. You know, he recently, he's
back in Copenhagen and he opened a new restaurant.
Oh, yeah? He left Singapore. I don't know if
the restaurant that he opened in Singapore still
exists, but he's back in Copenhagen. That's amazing.
I was so sad when a mask closed. I had one of
my most memorable lunches there, like one of
my most memorable meals there ever. It was amazing.
I loved it. I had a meeting in the space already
closed. The empty restaurant became like an office
for this innovation lab called Spora. And I had
a meeting there and it was, you know, like kind
of like nostalgic, like, you know, being in this
place that what I've never been before, you know,
like, but I knew a lot about it and suddenly
it became like an office for this kind of thing.
It was such a cool space. Like I loved it. Like
with the concrete and the graffiti and like the
open, like the high ceilings, the like warehouse,
the garden outside. It was, it was a really beautiful
restaurant. It was an amazing chef, Matt Orlando.
Absolutely amazing chef. Now it's time for our
new segment that we're introducing, Go Fact Yourself,
where we fact check and untangle cooking myths
and misconceptions. Go fact yourself. Go fact
yourself. Adding the seed of avocado to your
guacamole will help it prevent from oxidizing.
That is a good question. Come here, Sots. What
would the seed do? Because I don't think that
the seed inside the avocado keeps the avocado
from inside turning brown. I think the skin that
is covering the avocado from the oxygen is keeping
it from turning brown. I mean, just think about
it. I love a little bit of science. There you
go. Yeah, I mean, I think it makes no difference.
I think oxidization is what turns. avocado brown
and not some sort of chemical inside of the seed.
When I see someone doing that, I like it. You
do? Yeah. I don't care if it's true or not, scientifically,
but there is like a code in that. It's like,
you know, I know you know. You know, like the
ritualistic aspect of cooking or it's, you know,
like at least it tells me that the people that
did that guacamole is caring by doing that. Exactly.
You know, like, and that, and that, that is meaningful
to me. But yeah, I actually do it by, for that
reason as well, because it's like a, you know,
like a jester and, and I like it. You like it
because you do it yourself. All right. Um, all
right, dear listener, it's time for you to give
us your answer. Do you think, um, avocado seeds
turn your guacamole from turning brown? Say your
answer out loud, uh, wherever you are, whether
you're in the, in the subway station or. You're
in the cinema with your girlfriend. It doesn't
matter if the movie is about to start. It's your
time to answer in three, two, one. If you said
yes, then you're very much mistaken. I'm sorry
to tell you, Eric, that adding avocado seed to
guacamole does not prevent it from turning brown
unless you're talking about the area that the
avocado seed is touching, which is preventing
it from being in contact with oxygen. But all
the rest of the guacamole will oxidize just the
same. There's unfortunately not a substance in
the avocado seed that keeps it from turning brown.
That's very sad. But to console you in your sadness
about being wrong, I have an interesting avocado
fact for you, or a hack. Okay. How do you take
the seed out of an avocado after you cut it in
half? I would, you know, like, use my knife as
a little axe, and I would, like, click, and then
I... Machete it. Yeah, I machete it and then
I turn. Or like a little bit, turn and then pull.
And there it goes. That's how I've been doing
it for the past 17 years. And how most people
that I know do it. And I've recently, just this
week, found out, which blew my mind, is that
if you take an avocado that is not underripe,
it doesn't have to be super ripe, but if it's
just normal ripe. You cut it in half. You have
one half. It's already seedless. You have another
half that's seedless. You turn it around and
you, with both thumbs, just press on the skin
where the seed is. It'll just pop out by itself.
Nice. Nice, nice, nice. You should give it a
try. Yeah? Is that like you're reanimating the
avocado and then it will like pop? A little bit,
yeah. You're doing a Heimlich maneuver on the
avocado, basically. But don't press too hard.
Wrong about cooking! Don't get mad, get factual.