Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks, the
show where we talk about food and kitchens from
a cook's point of view. I'm Eric and I'm here
with my friend from the Middle East, Habibi Bendum,
aka Schlunkbuster300. Today we're going to talk
about why fear is the number one catalyst behind
any kitchen dynamic. But first... You're listening
to Heritage Radio Network. So, Phil, how scared
do you need your chefs to be to make a good job?
I mean, that's a pretty loaded question. I don't
know, man. I don't think fear is the way. Fear
is a way. Has been a way for a while, for sure.
Yeah, I mean, it's... But, you know, like the
other... A few episodes ago, we talked about
sustainability. It's not a sustainable way. But
it's worked for many, many people for a really
long time and in a really, like, utterly successful
way. What do you think are the fears in a kitchen?
Have you felt fear in a kitchen? Every day, man.
Every day. To this day. So it is actually a driving
force, right? And it's something I think is very
present. I think it was Albert Adria, the one
who said that fear of failure was his main driving
force. And I think a chef has that. In the moment
of execution, if you're doing something, especially
if you're doing something expensive, man, you're
afraid, you know? You don't want to screw up,
you know? Like, you want your piece of, I don't
know, 300 euros kilo Wagyu piece of meat. You
want to, you know, to be... right the way it
has to be on the first attempt right absolutely
absolutely you know fear of that fear fear of
you know your own failure it's fear of the repercussions
when you fail getting shits from your superiors
getting made fun of from you know the members
of your team fear from you know a complaint you
know like a customer complaining like i mean
imagine you're a young chef and you send something
out And then somebody comes in and is like, well,
you know, we've had a complaint. I remember working
with you. You were a young chef, and they, I
don't know if you remember this. It was like
a long hair, which was not yours, inside a souffle.
Where did that hair come from? I have no idea.
But you sent the souffle. I mean, like, this
should never happen, but this kind of things
happen, you know? And I remember that the chef
told you, like, shit happens you know like it's
not like uh i mean i'm pretty sure you were careful
but i don't know that like also every once in
a while like i find some long hair where it shouldn't
be like in my kitchen and i don't have long hair
you know like these kind of things happen once
in a while you know no absolutely absolutely
it can happen for sure and it does happen sometimes
like it's not nice you try to take care as much
as you can as a young chef like i try to take
care but obviously you're like your your mind
is in overdrive with so many other things that
you taking care isn't often like you don't really
have the capacity to calmly look at things and
check everything and blah but stuff like that
just happens you know i mean unless you're super
sterile and like everybody has their arms shaved
and like face and head masks and And then still,
like, it can happen. That's just a part of the
reality. And that's, of course, uncomfortable,
you know, but yeah, for sure. I remember that
same kitchen, though. I remember one moment where
I was just so, like, it comes through how scared
you are of the repercussions. I remember we had
these very expensive plates. There's a plate
manufacturer called Herring that is still very,
very popular, especially in fine dining. The
plates are extremely expensive. One plate will
cost you like 200 quid. And so we had these ridiculous...
I'm sure you remember these plates. We had these
ridiculous plates. They were super wide on the
top and then they had like a very, very thin
base at the bottom. The UFOs. But like the base
on the bottom was basically the size of a coin,
right? So they were super unstable. And you could
only stack like two or three on top of each other.
And you stacked more than two or three. I remember.
No, I didn't actually. But like I put, they lived
on like the very top shelf on top of like next
to the pass, which again, thinking about it was
a pretty stupid place for them. And you had to
sort of like put them up and then lean them towards
the wall just to be safe. I thought I did that,
but I put them up there, put one stack up there.
And I swear like 30 minutes later, like 20, 30
minutes later, it took a while. It wasn't like
immediate. I went back to pastry. And the chef
was standing there right next to where the plates
were on top of him. And like 30 minutes later,
the plates just went crashing down right next
to him. And everybody went silent. And I looked
over and I remember like involuntarily saying
like, oh my God. God's not going to save you.
Yeah, exactly. He just turned around slowly.
He was like, God's not gonna save you. But yeah,
thinking back to that kitchen, I really very
vividly remember being scared every day. I was
scared every single morning. Every morning I
would wake up, I would get into my tram and head
down to work. And I would sit in the tram and
just be shitting myself. And I was like, I'm
not going to make it. I'm going to fuck up. I'm
going to do this. Also because you have no control,
right? You don't, you're a little bit helpless
because you haven't yet acquired the skills.
It's like in martial arts, you know, you're a
white belt. You don't know what's going on. You
get into a situation, you get into a scramble.
You don't know, like, there's an arm here, there's
an arm there. You don't know what to do. Later
on down the line, when you're a black belt, you
are more calm because you can deal with these
sorts of situations. You're sort of like, okay,
I'm in a tough spot, but I have tools. I have
knowledge. And yeah, but back then I was scared
every day. And I would like dream of the kitchen
also, something also I don't do anymore. I remember
my girlfriend at the time, she told me that sometimes
I would wake up at night to start talking to
myself. And I used to have this reoccurring dream
where I was in the kitchen, in that kitchen where
we met. I was alone and just the chef was on
the pass and he'd stand at the pass and like
plate his back to me. And he'd be sort of like,
where's the artichoke puree? And I'd go through
all the fridges, all the shelves, everywhere,
like through the Saucier, the Poissonnier. I'd
go back to the Garde Magie. I'd go to Entremetier
and open all the fridges. I can't find it, you
know. And he'd be like, where's the artichoke
puree? He was shouting at me, and I'd get more
panic. And my girlfriend at the time told me
that, like, one time she woke up in the middle
of the night, and I was, like, sitting upright
in the bed, kind of, like, patting the end of
the bed. And she's like, what are you doing?
And I was mumbling to myself, like, where's the
artichoke puree? I need to find the artichoke
puree. So it definitely stays with you, you know?
Yeah, I had something similar once, being afraid
of being late. That's also something, like, in
general. But especially in a kitchen, you know,
that happened to me even once. I remember, like,
waking up, and I was already, like, two hours
late. You know, like, and you just want to die.
The worst. You're so exhausted, yeah. But what
I wanted to tell, I also had like this kind of
nightmare situation. I remember I was living
in a flatmate and I arrived and there were like,
not only my flatmate, but other people, like
guests. I think even Samder was there. And I
arrived and I just fell into the couch and started
sleeping right away. And like, I don't know,
maybe half an hour later, I woke up and I was
completely paranoid. I'm late, I'm late, I'm
late, I need to go to work. And these people
were like, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, it's okay,
it's okay. We're at home. It's already in the
afternoon, it's fine. Like you've come home from
war, you know? Like you're like, no, the Russians
are coming. It's intense and I feel like... I
don't know, you know, like I often see myself
fall back into this. Like I still have fears,
you know, I have fears of failing. And like,
as you grow through a kitchen environment, you
have more and more responsibility. You know,
the fears, they change. And you have fear of
letting people down. You have fear of like this
big responsibility of like letting, you know,
you know, the company down or whatever. Or, you
know, suddenly things are in your responsibility
that could potentially cost a lot of money. their
reputation is kind of like it's even a line cook
you know you fuck up it's not like it's not your
place like you get shit but at the end of the
day that's it but if you fuck up on a larger
scale it can be really detrimental so fears change
but at the same time you know i agree with albert
adria fear is a driving factor i think that a
lot of the times in our life not just professionally
we should move to like in the direction towards
our fears I agree 100%. I remember both. Moved
to Bolivia, you know, I was living after eight
years in Berlin and I was just giving up everything,
you know, like my apartment, most of my belongings,
everything, just to go to Bolivia, just to chase
an opportunity to see where it could bring me.
And I was really afraid. You know, I was really
afraid of, okay, what if everything fails? You
know, like... Yeah. Well, but it didn't, and
I'm really happy I did, and everything I've accomplished
after that was possible because I did that step.
And also the same thing happened to me the last
time that I worked as a head chef. I mean, I
was already working in R &D, you know, like more
kind of like a lab or computer job after a few
years, and then suddenly going back to a kitchen,
you know, like, and without the... Agility you
have if you've been working in a kitchen for
years. Quite the opposite. You haven't been working
in a kitchen for years. And I did and it worked
out. But I was also really afraid of that one.
Opening a new restaurant, you know, like these
kind of things. Phil, do you recommend podcasts
to your friends? All the time. The best way of
showing friends that you care is recommending
a great podcast to listen to. I agree. If you're
listening right now, you should show your love
by recommending or show to all your best friends.
It will make them happy. It will make us happy.
PopLock Food Talks. Tell your friends. It will
make the world a better place. It's fucking scary,
man. All of these things are scary, you know?
Like, imagine the first time you become a head
chef. Or the first time you like cook your own
food. I was talking to somebody about this the
other day. I remember the first time I tried
to cook my own food. I had like pretty good experience.
And I started making dishes and I was like, they're
shit. Like this is shit. This is really not good.
And it's like, it's pretty crushing. But then
we get back to the old thing of, you know, your
ego. and your own perception. I think one of
the most undervalued skills that a person can
have is reassessing yourself and fact -checking
yourself without getting too caught up in your
own ego. Being open to the realization that it
is okay for you to be wrong. And also for you
to do something bad. This is something that I've
always really struggled with. I hate being bad
at things. So, for example, take something completely
unrelated like drawing. You know, I would love
to draw in my free time. But whenever I do or
whenever I did, it's shit, right? Because I never
do it. I saw your jalapeno chasing. a lime like
a jusu lime picked that was my prompt that was
my prompt for chat gpt to make a label for a
hot sauce but yeah you know yeah these ideas
they have to come from something but i really
love this like it's something that i really had
to kind of and i'm still struggling with it but
i try to learn and try to remind myself all the
time because with every almost every new thing
that i start even like new dishes I've been cooking
for, I had a realization yesterday in the car,
I've been cooking for almost 18 years now. And
still today, like when I start something new,
and I make a new dish, and it doesn't work out
the first time, which happens like 30 % of the
time, so quite frequent, I get super frustrated.
And I'm like, fuck this, I don't want to make
it anymore. And I'm like, what is wrong with
you? You know, like, just try again, just like
assess what's happened and go again. I think
that's one of the most difficult things about
starting a new skill. I would say it's being
afraid of being ridiculous. And you will be ridiculous
if you mention drawing. If you have never drawn
in your life and you take a pencil and your first
attempts are going to be like a joke. But that's
the only way, man. It's the only way. The only
way is doing it. The only way is through it.
That's it. There's no way around it, not really
anyway. That's kind of what 90 % of the private
chefs do. They try to go around it instead of
through it. But yeah, at the end of the day,
I feel like it's really important that we remind
ourselves that the first draft of anything is
shit. It's not good. But that's what a first
draft is for. We shouldn't try to shortcut our
life. We should appreciate. The fact that we
are able to make a first draft and not pressure
ourselves so much in this fear. This is the way
that you categorize fear. What is fear? Is it,
I'm about to fail? At the end of the day, none
of this is life -threatening. So what exactly
is it? How do you categorize fear in your own
mind? Is it actually a driving force? And is
it something that is showing you flaws in what
you're doing? Is it giving you a hint towards
the things that maybe need improvement? And all
these things that can put into a completely different
perspective for you to actually make it something
really productive. But also, I think that there
are like these shared illusions that are built
in teams, especially the very cold one. teams
you know like the ones that work like with where
the chef is the guru of his own little world
and everybody is part of the of that ship you
know like and and there are fears that are built
that are quite real that are super super real
and i think these are the causes of things like
or even even at a higher level not only like
a chef but also the environment of the chef.
You know, like, and I can think of, was it Vattel?
You know, this French chef from a few hundred
years ago that killed himself because the fish
didn't arrive at time. Yeah. You know, he was
cooking like a banquet for, I don't know, the
king, you know, like, and the fish didn't arrive
and he... couldn't handle the pressure and killed
himself. Not to say chefs that kill themselves
because they lose a mission in Star, like Bernard
Loiseau or some others. And you're like, I mean,
it's something real. It's not something, I mean,
you could debate about if it's real or not. At
the end of the day, I think it's an illusion.
It's like a self -built thought scheme that drives
you. to, in this case, to kill yourself, right?
Absolutely. Today, I was talking with some colleagues
about the thought processes of a chef, and it
reminded me of a TV chef that I used to watch
that he would always say, you have to cook with
a healthy amount of paranoia. You know, like
don't throw something to the oven and just assume
it's going to work. You should, you know, be
a little bit paranoid, like check, okay, is it?
You know, like double check everything. And I
think that that's a key of a professional chef,
a key feature that it has in his working and
thought processes is... you're double checking
everything while you're doing it because you
need to do adjustments because it's not a mathematical
formula it's not two plus two is four it's a
physical chemical formula where there are millions
of variables you know like and things are transforming
itself and And you have the piece of produce
you have and the environment you're working in,
the equipment you're using. All these variables
make that things don't work the same every time.
So you need to understand what's your desired
result and what adjustment you need to tweak
to get there. And that's what a chef does. You're
all the time... you know, checking, seeing, is
this working, do I need to add this or more,
or put the fire up or down, or, you know, like,
that's pretty much the mental processes that
is occurring. Yeah, absolutely. I was actually
talking to one of my chefs about this the other
day, making this, like, very, in of itself, very
simple beef stock, beef consommé. It starts by,
you know, you adding the meat and the bones to
a pot. We boil it one time, discard the water,
wash all the stuff, put it back into a fresh
pot, top it off with filtered water, and then
you simmer it like very slowly, but you have
to take care of it all the time, right? You have
to skim the impurities, you have to skim off
the fat, but not too much fat. In of itself,
very simple, but it's also like pretty easy to
fuck it up. And I was kind of talking to her
about this, and I was sort of like, well, I like
to try the broth in different stages. I like
to try it after the first 30 minutes. um where
it's not really tasty yet but i try it anyway
and then i try it after an hour it's a little
bit better you know and then like after and then
really only after two hours something starts
to happen and it starts becoming like quite nice
and you can kind of tell the direction i remembered
that i started doing this in my apprenticeship
i remember when we were in my goal and i was
on a section with um sarah halman um there was
a there was a sauce that we were making and i
tried it and she was like why are you trying
it it's like it's not it's not going to be ready
in like three hours and i was like no but i like
to know where it's at right now so you get an
understanding of what's happening when we do
that you get into a habit of doing that you kind
of know what is happening at which stage and
so at one point when you're making the broth
and you try it after the first hour it's nowhere
like what it's going to be at the end but You
can tell if something's wrong or something's
different, and you can already make adjustments.
You know, you can catch problems before they
really start becoming very serious. What about
being afraid of killing someone with food? Have
you felt that, like, for real? Like, afraid,
afraid? Like, I mean, I take it very seriously,
you know. It's a big responsibility that you
have, you know. I mean, we spoke about this not
too long ago that at the end of the day, it's
more like the people's responsibility. Of course,
you've been in situations where something has
happened, you know, and you send a piece, like
you send a dish out and then somebody comes to
you and says, oh, here's the no shrimp version.
And you're like, wait, I thought that was the
no shrimp version. And then I know that was the
regular one for the other table. And you're like,
fuck, you know. Luckily, nothing serious has
ever happened to me like when I was in the kitchen.
But of course, it's very scary. You have to take
it seriously. Some people, they joke about it,
you know, and like a lot of allergies and a certain
culture that we have nowadays, you can joke about
that. It's a little bit silly sometimes, but
some of it is not. It's very real and very dangerous
and very serious. And you have a big responsibility
towards the people that come into your restaurant,
for sure. Yeah, I was talking with Sebastian
Pinchera from Kai Sushi. And he told me twice,
he told someone, I'm not serving you. Please
leave. I mean, he's running a sushi place and
someone came claiming this person had a deadly
fish allergy. I can't guarantee that there was
not cross -contamination in the air with anything.
Impossible. And then there was another one he
told me, it was like, What are the gluten allergy,
a celiac? A celiac, but then it said, ah, but
I'm not getting the ramen, but I love ramen.
And it was like, hmm. Yeah, that happens all
the time. We had a situation the other day where
somebody came and they said, I have a severe
nut and sesame allergy, very severe allergy,
right? Nuts and sesame can be very detrimental.
It's like, I have a very severe nuts and sesame
allergy, but sesame oil is okay. And we were
like, no, it's not, you know, like we're not
doing that. Like either you're allergic or you're
not. And it's, and we're also not risking it
because, you know, I mean, guess who's going
to jail if you do kill somebody? The head chef.
Yeah. The manager on duty that is there, that
is responsible for all this shit happening. You
know, if you're a line cook and you're, like,
pissed off at your head chef getting angry at
you for, you know, like, not taking allergies
seriously, like, just think about that. You know,
I mean, depending on which country you're in.
But, like, for me here in Dubai, if I kill somebody
with a shrimp allergy in a kitchen that I'm responsible
for, even if I'm not the head chef, but I am
the manager in charge at the moment, I'm going
to jail. I don't want to go to Dubai jail. You
know what kind of fucked up shit must happen
there? But I have no idea. Me neither, and I
don't want to find out. Hey, Phil, have you subscribed
to our newsletter yet? We have a newsletter?
What's a newsletter about, Eric? Every month
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to our newsletter where we unveil all of your
grandmother's secrets. What about the fear of
becoming a real shit person while working in
the kitchen? Have you had that? Have you felt
that? No. I've assumed being a shitty person.
I've embraced it without any... You know, holding
back. I was like, if people are going to tell
I'm an asshole, I will let them say it for a
reason. Nah, I'm joking. I would never do that.
You're like the Bane of choleric chefs. You're
like, you only assumed the role of an asshole.
I was born in it. No, I guess, yeah, there's
a lot of that. Like, yeah, like being afraid
of not having enough self -criticism, you know,
like, and becoming the person you don't like
to see in others. And I think that's actually
super common in chefs and like, or in high -level
management, you know, like egomaniacs that become
whatever they become, and they become things
they would never, ever accept. from the other
one let's for example trump you know like you
think trump would accept someone being to him
the way he is to others of course never ever
never ever you know and that's exactly the point
i'm talking about you know like it's very yeah
it's i don't know it's it's tricky you know it's
a very fine line to work i have that i definitely
have that sometimes you know i mean kitchens
are weird um microcosm there's such a closed
off world sometimes i realize that because we
have a fully open kitchen right and i remember
the other day like kicking off at somebody because
they did something really stupid i look over
and there's just like a row of customers sitting
right there just being like oh you know and i
was like i should remember that like everybody
can hear me everybody out there uh it's it's
easy to get carried away in with these well i
don't want to call it passions but like this
this pressure you know it's very easy to get
carried away by a certain pressure that you feel
and the fears that cause that pressure also you
know the fear of failure the responsibility you
carry there's no excuse to treat people shittily
um and again you have to put things into perspective
i had a situation not too long ago where i started
giving somebody i had a chef super unfocused
and Just doing stuff that was really annoying,
really unnecessary. And then I found out that
he was hiding things from me. And then I found
that and I was really angry. I gave him so much
shit. And then afterwards, after service, I asked
him to come into the office and I gave him more
pressure. And I was like, why do you do this?
At the end of the day, I want to support you.
But you're, like, lying to me. You're hiding
shit from me. You're doing this. You're doing
that. Like, why? Why? What's going on? What's
your problem? Do you not want to be here? Like,
why the fuck are you sabotaging everything else?
He just starts, like, crying and cracking up.
And he's like, I'm really sorry. Like, I've just
been unfocused. Like, a family member of mine
is in hospital, and I just can't focus. My mind
is somewhere else. And I was sitting there. I
was listening to him, and I was like, what the
fuck am I doing? You know? Like, it's really
not that big. it's really not that important
you know like you get so swept away by everything
has to be good everything has to be perfect and
go go go go go and more and more and more and
i really realize i'm sort of like man i'm completely
like right now today i'm completely lost in the
sauce and it's not worth it it's just not worth
it you know well that's definitely that's definitely
a fear that i have sometimes where I try to fact
-check myself. There are also micro -fears in
the middle of service rush. You're sending stuff,
things are coming, and you're like... To have
everything under grip, knowing that you didn't
forget anything, that thing that is in the oven
and the thing that you have here and the other
one, and you don't want to fuck up, so you...
and that there is a little bit of you know like
so the they say here in spain the the bull doesn't
catch you right like yeah yeah absolutely but
i mean that's like um that's that's you know
riding the wave i mean that's kind of the part
of the excitement you know you're surfing that
wave of like you're just making it you're just
about making it all the time from ticket to ticket
from dish to dish have you ever had that that
you were like working on one section And like,
for example, you have this thing with meat proteins
and garnish. And where you just kind of like
try to deliver just like a minute or two before
the other section does. And so it's actually
really horrible. But like every time it's sort
of like, okay, how long do you need? Four minutes?
Okay. Two and a half minutes, like three minutes,
you're there. And he's still like... a minute
away it's not a lot it's like a minute away and
you're just like and over like ticket by ticket
dish by dish you're putting in more and more
in the shit because at some point the head chef's
gonna be why are you always late you know why
the fuck are you always late he's like and you're
like i don't know i'm ready you know i've got
my stuff ready sauce is there fish is there everything's
soigné you know fish is overcooked chef when
i put it down it was perfect I'm waiting for
this guy. I just talked about being a shit person,
and then I, you know, this sort of stuff. But,
yeah, and, sorry, sorry, go ahead. It's the dirty,
the dark side of chef -to -partying, you know.
I remember one of the biggest pressures I've
ever had was opening a restaurant. I had opened
restaurants before, but not in a management role.
And that's like a completely different movie.
I think it has to be one of the most stressful
things I've ever made. Because everything has
to be on point and you have to align so many
thousands of things for the first time. And it
is expected to go wrong. Yeah, for sure. It is
expected that I don't go to newly opened restaurants
for that reason because I know they need time,
you know, to optimize everything because they're
in unknown ground, right? And yeah, I remember
that was like a lot, like a lot, a lot. And also
fear of not delivering, right? Like not being
at the level that you're supposed to deliver.
And that was super, super difficult. That is
really difficult, yeah, for sure. Especially
because when you're opening a restaurant, you
don't really have a way of testing it out. Of
course, you have mock services and stuff like
that. But I think the crazy thing about opening
restaurants is that you can think as much as
you want about a kitchen design and processes
and logistics and footpaths and all that sort
of stuff. And you can do a mock service, sure.
But you also know that a lot of the problems,
they're only going to become apparent once you're
in full operation. You know that. You know after
two months we'll know that this is not working,
this is not working, that is not working. You
have to accept that. You cannot iron every little
kink out from the very beginning. But I think
that is a good way of learning how to deal with
fears. Being comfortable in uncomfortable positions,
you know, making a mistake and not spiraling
out of control. We talked about this like also
not too long ago. And at the moment, it's a big
topic with people in my team also where I'm kind
of like, when something goes wrong, don't shut
down. That is the time where you need to spring
into action, right? That is the time where you
really need to kick into sixth gear. they need
to go like okay how how do i do this i go up
up up up up you know and but some people they
get that really naturally and some people don't
but going like becoming getting to a place where
you're comfortable being uncomfortable is amazing
embrace comfort yeah it's like If you're cooking
a section for the first time, you're chef de
party for the first time, you're like, man, it's
like so much anxiety, you know? You're kind of
like, do I have everything? Is everything working?
Can I keep up? Unless you have a sauce here that
stitches you up, you know? I think it applies
to so many other things in life where you're
kind of like, it's okay. I can accept things
going wrong because I can act from a place of
calm, of competence. I have tools at my disposal.
I have knowledge. See what comes my way and act
accordingly and don't lose my balance. Now it's
time for our new segment that we're introducing,
Go Fact Yourself, where we fact check and untangle
cooking myths and misconceptions. Go fact yourself.
Go fact yourself. Das Worte. boil faster when
you add salt to it? I really think if it does
or if it doesn't, it really doesn't make a difference.
It would be like a five -second difference or
like a minute difference, like who cares, waiting
a minute more or less. But I would think it would
take longer, that the salt would make it take
longer to boil. That's my intuition. Dear listener,
we'll give you a moment to say your answer out
loud, and then we will reveal what the truth
is. If you said yes, then I feel very sorry for
you. No, salt does not make water boil faster.
In fact, it slightly increases the boiling point.
It makes water take a longer time to reach the
boiling stage. That's what I thought. I didn't
have the facts, but that's what my intuition
would say. Wrong about cooking! Don't get mad,
get factual.