WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.360 You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Hi, 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:13.060 everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. My name 00:00:13.060 --> 00:00:16.559 is Eric. I'm not a chef. And I'm here today with 00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:19.300 the president of the Michelin Guide fan club, 00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:23.010 Michael Lin. How are you doing, man? Michael 00:00:23.010 --> 00:00:25.129 Lindauer. It took me a moment to get there. Hey, 00:00:25.170 --> 00:00:27.250 yeah, my name is Phil. I am a chef. We're here 00:00:27.250 --> 00:00:29.929 to talk about food and stuff. If this is the 00:00:29.929 --> 00:00:32.250 first episode you listened to, go back to the 00:00:32.250 --> 00:00:34.670 beginning. See where it started. We had some 00:00:34.670 --> 00:00:37.810 crazy comments on the last reels we had, especially 00:00:37.810 --> 00:00:42.030 on the one where you're roasting allergic people, 00:00:42.130 --> 00:00:44.929 which I think is very discriminatory from your 00:00:44.929 --> 00:00:48.549 side. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Don't 00:00:48.549 --> 00:00:50.170 take the things that I say out of context. I 00:00:50.170 --> 00:00:52.850 wasn't roasting allergic people. It's not their 00:00:52.850 --> 00:00:56.070 fault for being allergic to something, but it 00:00:56.070 --> 00:00:59.509 is their fault if they don't handle it in a good 00:00:59.509 --> 00:01:01.729 way. There were some comments of people saying 00:01:01.729 --> 00:01:06.689 like, well, if you say that or think like that, 00:01:06.810 --> 00:01:09.689 you know nothing about hospitality. You're a 00:01:09.689 --> 00:01:11.950 monster. Which made me think, what is hospitality 00:01:11.950 --> 00:01:14.650 in the first place? What is your definition of 00:01:14.650 --> 00:01:17.409 hospitality? What does it mean for you? What 00:01:17.409 --> 00:01:20.829 does it mean to me? It's a very good question. 00:01:20.930 --> 00:01:23.129 I mean, hospitality can be so many things, right? 00:01:23.719 --> 00:01:26.060 exactly it's like one of these big words you 00:01:26.060 --> 00:01:28.840 know like design define design there is not like 00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:32.219 a single definition fine dining poetry you know 00:01:32.219 --> 00:01:35.439 like these are these big words that have many 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:38.040 nuances and meanings and but yeah what could 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:40.500 be a valid definition or a set of definitions 00:01:40.500 --> 00:01:43.159 for you yeah i mean eric you've you've known 00:01:43.159 --> 00:01:45.420 me how long have we've known each other now a 00:01:45.420 --> 00:01:48.079 long time 12 years something like that at least 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:51.680 more i think much much longer almost 20 years 00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:55.040 i think You know, I'm not, you know, big words 00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:57.459 aren't my thing. You know, I'm a simple man. 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:01.579 They confuse me. Hospitality. I think in terms 00:02:01.579 --> 00:02:04.359 of cooking also in restaurants, right? What is 00:02:04.359 --> 00:02:06.000 one of the most beautiful aspects of cooking? 00:02:06.180 --> 00:02:10.099 It's nourishing people. It's an extension of 00:02:10.099 --> 00:02:15.180 kindness and of care in a broad term, you know, 00:02:15.180 --> 00:02:18.240 and that can mean many, many things. I think 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:21.599 it's a very, very beautiful thing. It is like 00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:25.669 you come. into my space, and I welcome you. And 00:02:25.669 --> 00:02:30.129 let me do something for you. Let me do something 00:02:30.129 --> 00:02:34.330 for you, right? What that means can be very broad, 00:02:34.469 --> 00:02:36.210 but I think that is the general thing. I think 00:02:36.210 --> 00:02:41.050 it is, in its essence, a kindness and a type 00:02:41.050 --> 00:02:43.870 of care. Okay, nice, nice, nice. What's yours? 00:02:45.490 --> 00:02:49.370 It's not a common use word in... Do you say hospitalarian 00:02:49.370 --> 00:02:52.150 in English? No, I don't think so. Not, right? 00:02:52.820 --> 00:02:55.819 or also not in German, right? But in Spanish 00:02:55.819 --> 00:02:58.620 you say hospitalario, which is something, and 00:02:58.620 --> 00:03:02.780 you use it mostly only when you have guests. 00:03:03.099 --> 00:03:04.939 You know, like when you have someone at your 00:03:04.939 --> 00:03:08.759 home and you treat them right, you're hospitalario. 00:03:09.159 --> 00:03:11.860 There's a German word for that. It's not the 00:03:11.860 --> 00:03:15.259 hospitality industry as it is in English. Because 00:03:15.259 --> 00:03:19.800 it's a big word, the word also embodies other 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:22.240 things. For example, there's a congress that 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:26.060 I go to in Madrid, the Hospitality Innovation 00:03:26.060 --> 00:03:29.620 Planet is the name of the congress, the conference. 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:32.740 And there are stands, for example, for hospital 00:03:32.740 --> 00:03:36.900 beds, which is also in that the word also encompasses 00:03:36.900 --> 00:03:39.759 that because you're also welcoming guests and 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:41.759 taking care of them. Of course. Which is super 00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:44.659 interesting. I wanted to get into the... the 00:03:44.659 --> 00:03:47.639 beginning, the origin of this whole thing. So 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:50.740 I looked for the etymology of hospitality, right? 00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:54.699 And it's very interesting because in archaic 00:03:54.699 --> 00:03:58.120 Latin, which is the oldest origin of it, the 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:02.139 original word was hostis. And hostis was the 00:04:02.139 --> 00:04:06.240 same word for both stranger and enemy. Because, 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:08.699 you know, like in very ancient times. Like hostile, 00:04:08.979 --> 00:04:12.349 yeah. Somebody else, yeah. Or a hostage, and 00:04:12.349 --> 00:04:18.990 you're the host. Oof, goddamn. And yeah, these 00:04:18.990 --> 00:04:23.009 words are all related. The core meaning of hospitality 00:04:23.009 --> 00:04:26.209 is loving the guest, and a host is the master 00:04:26.209 --> 00:04:30.370 of the guest. And yeah, you mentioned hostility 00:04:30.370 --> 00:04:34.160 is the fear of the stranger, of the enemy. And 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:38.180 a hostage is a control of the stranger. Or a 00:04:38.180 --> 00:04:40.779 hospital is a place for guests, the sick and 00:04:40.779 --> 00:04:44.339 the poor. So the hospitality word actually has 00:04:44.339 --> 00:04:46.300 an origin in hospital because at the beginning, 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:49.480 hospitals were only, you know, like churches 00:04:49.480 --> 00:04:54.379 that would take sick people and poor. Also hostel, 00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:59.079 hotel. But yeah, I think the act of taking even, 00:04:59.180 --> 00:05:01.720 and also for me, there is also that contradiction. 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:05.040 I read this quote from Jacques Derrida, a French 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:07.199 philosopher, and he says, the word hospitality 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:12.120 contains its opposite. The hostility in hostess 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:14.779 to welcome the other is to face the possibility 00:05:14.779 --> 00:05:19.199 of danger and openness at once. I love that. 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:23.360 I love that, honestly. Which brings us back to, 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:28.810 you know. The art of hosting somebody who is 00:05:28.810 --> 00:05:33.750 difficult. But at the end of the day, you can 00:05:33.750 --> 00:05:36.509 always reject them. Saying, I'm not hosting you. 00:05:37.149 --> 00:05:40.730 But I would say at the very core of hospitality, 00:05:41.149 --> 00:05:45.990 you're taking even difficult guests. Of course, 00:05:46.009 --> 00:05:48.990 there are limits. By default, as a standard procedure, 00:05:49.329 --> 00:05:52.930 you will see how to fix whatever is going on. 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:57.079 And, you know, it's kind of like your vocation. 00:05:57.160 --> 00:05:59.319 This is what you do, right? Well, that's really, 00:05:59.339 --> 00:06:01.860 really interesting because like these two aspects 00:06:01.860 --> 00:06:04.959 that you just described of sort of like I'm opening 00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:08.040 a space for you. I'm putting myself out there 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:10.959 in a way. I'm letting you in. I'm also facing 00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:14.959 the risk of you misusing that space. And there's 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:18.000 a duality to this, right? So the German word 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:22.420 for hospitalario is Gastgeber. Ah, yes, of course. 00:06:22.420 --> 00:06:25.019 So it's a combination of two words. Gast means 00:06:25.019 --> 00:06:28.939 guest and Geber. Guest giving. Yeah, like I am 00:06:28.939 --> 00:06:32.660 giving something to my guest. I am the person 00:06:32.660 --> 00:06:36.360 in the position of I am giving. Guest giver, 00:06:36.459 --> 00:06:38.600 something like that, right? Guest giver. Yes, 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:42.879 I'm giving something. And giving things is a 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:44.439 very beautiful thing. It's very good. Like, I 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:46.459 mean, as children already, you know, in good 00:06:46.459 --> 00:06:49.160 upbringings, we know that sharing and giving. 00:06:49.870 --> 00:06:51.769 It's something very great, something very beautiful. 00:06:52.029 --> 00:06:55.410 But the duality of this aspect is also kind of 00:06:55.410 --> 00:06:57.209 like if you're on the opposite side, if you're 00:06:57.209 --> 00:07:01.910 the receiver, how do you hold yourself in this 00:07:01.910 --> 00:07:05.129 space of receiving? Are you grateful? Do you 00:07:05.129 --> 00:07:07.930 take what you are given? Do you make demands? 00:07:08.370 --> 00:07:11.129 Then it's a little bit of a back and forth. Is 00:07:11.129 --> 00:07:14.750 the giver open to accommodating those demands, 00:07:15.029 --> 00:07:17.810 you know? But obviously, it's an equilibrium. 00:07:17.949 --> 00:07:21.410 If you demand too much, it's sort of like you 00:07:21.410 --> 00:07:26.350 are stepping out of grace in your position as 00:07:26.350 --> 00:07:29.089 the person receiving. And this, I think, personally 00:07:29.089 --> 00:07:31.550 encapsulates this whole point of kind of like, 00:07:31.709 --> 00:07:34.110 what mentality do you have? Do you go into a 00:07:34.110 --> 00:07:36.470 space and you demand as if you have a right to 00:07:36.470 --> 00:07:39.269 demand? And also on the opposite side, are you 00:07:39.269 --> 00:07:42.550 in a position where you consciously open your 00:07:42.550 --> 00:07:45.100 space and say, hey, I want to give? And people 00:07:45.100 --> 00:07:48.199 come in, and you're very closed up. And you're 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:49.480 sort of like, this is what you can have or not. 00:07:51.259 --> 00:07:54.639 It's a very, very interesting balance between 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:57.459 the two. Yeah, I wanted to, let me look for this 00:07:57.459 --> 00:08:00.740 quickly. I wanted to read again this thing I 00:08:00.740 --> 00:08:04.959 sent you yesterday, which also says a lot about 00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:08.740 the expectations. And, you know, for example, 00:08:08.860 --> 00:08:11.939 ARSAC. ARSAC here is an institution, is a restaurant 00:08:11.939 --> 00:08:15.209 that has us. I mean, it was awarded best restaurant 00:08:15.209 --> 00:08:20.209 in Spain in the year 68, okay? You know, like, 00:08:20.350 --> 00:08:23.550 now Juan Mari's daughter is running the place. 00:08:23.810 --> 00:08:26.250 And I remember that five years ago, this was 00:08:26.250 --> 00:08:29.250 still top one on TripAdvisor. It was the one 00:08:29.250 --> 00:08:31.529 with the best reviews on TripAdvisor. And just 00:08:31.529 --> 00:08:36.169 recently, I came across a list of, it said, like, 00:08:36.490 --> 00:08:39.039 I think... three Michelin -star restaurants that 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:41.120 have actually bad reviews or something like that, 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:43.519 and Arsac was there. And I've read bad reviews 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:45.399 of Arsac. I've never been to Arsac, something 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:47.980 I'm interested in nowadays. Maybe I would have 00:08:47.980 --> 00:08:50.879 been interested 20 years ago. Yes. The thing 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:53.830 with... Arzages, I've heard a lot of people being 00:08:53.830 --> 00:08:56.909 disappointed or those kind of things. I saw this 00:08:56.909 --> 00:08:58.850 and I was like, let me check again five years 00:08:58.850 --> 00:09:01.669 later if they're still number one on TripAdvisor. 00:09:01.809 --> 00:09:04.870 And they went down to number 14, something like 00:09:04.870 --> 00:09:07.269 that. And, you know, you're reading that and 00:09:07.269 --> 00:09:09.710 you go along and let's look for the bad reviews. 00:09:09.830 --> 00:09:11.950 I want to read the bad ones first to see what 00:09:11.950 --> 00:09:17.330 people say. And I came across this one, which 00:09:17.330 --> 00:09:20.070 I think is incredible. That's it. We booked with 00:09:20.070 --> 00:09:23.649 months in advance a table at Arsac with all the 00:09:23.649 --> 00:09:25.830 expectations in the world, organizing even a 00:09:25.830 --> 00:09:28.850 trip around that experience. And what does this 00:09:28.850 --> 00:09:32.450 restaurant do? This restaurant that presumes 00:09:32.450 --> 00:09:36.009 international prestige, they cancel us the booking 00:09:36.009 --> 00:09:40.389 with only one month in advance because they have 00:09:40.389 --> 00:09:43.009 a very special event that day. That means that 00:09:43.009 --> 00:09:46.370 our table... It's not important enough for them. 00:09:46.490 --> 00:09:49.850 Is this respect for the client? Is this professionality 00:09:49.850 --> 00:09:53.009 for a restaurant in this category? This is just 00:09:53.009 --> 00:09:57.509 not serious, respect less. They have made us 00:09:57.509 --> 00:10:05.110 feel secondary. One star. I mean, I get it. I 00:10:05.110 --> 00:10:09.570 get it. I get both sides. Sometimes there are 00:10:09.570 --> 00:10:11.730 situations like this. Dude, one month in advance. 00:10:12.549 --> 00:10:15.450 One month in advance for you is not enough to 00:10:15.450 --> 00:10:19.110 call a table off, even if it's a three -star. 00:10:19.750 --> 00:10:23.029 You know, like, I don't get it. I think if this 00:10:23.029 --> 00:10:26.490 motivates you to buy a bad review, you could 00:10:26.490 --> 00:10:30.330 have used that energy to go in one month, you 00:10:30.330 --> 00:10:33.570 find one table for sure in one of the other four 00:10:33.570 --> 00:10:35.450 three -star restaurants that you have like a 00:10:35.450 --> 00:10:39.129 20 -minute drive from Arsak, you know? No, that 00:10:39.129 --> 00:10:41.330 is true. But I do understand the sentiment of 00:10:41.330 --> 00:10:44.820 feeling secondary. you know like you like imagine 00:10:44.820 --> 00:10:46.899 i mean there's no way the restaurant knows this 00:10:46.899 --> 00:10:49.620 right that you planned a whole trip but i do 00:10:49.620 --> 00:10:51.480 understand the sentiment of it and it's important 00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:53.740 to understand the guests also you know because 00:10:53.740 --> 00:10:56.179 like you have the situation sometimes where you're 00:10:56.179 --> 00:10:59.120 like you have reservations like a long time in 00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:01.259 advance for like whatever reason then suddenly 00:11:01.259 --> 00:11:02.940 something happens you want to do a collaboration 00:11:02.940 --> 00:11:05.080 or something like that you want to have a booking 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:06.659 you look at the bookings you're like i have two 00:11:06.659 --> 00:11:09.320 tables that day Like maybe I can move something 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:11.679 around. There's ways of handling it. You call 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:13.360 the tables, you say, hey, can we offer you a 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:15.039 different day? Can we offer you like the day 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:18.179 before, the day after? Can we like do something 00:11:18.179 --> 00:11:21.940 for you, right? To try to make it work. Like 00:11:21.940 --> 00:11:24.100 it does happen. But I do understand also the 00:11:24.100 --> 00:11:27.419 sentiment of feeling secondary. I get it. But 00:11:27.419 --> 00:11:31.980 apart from that, Arzak. What's happened at Arzak 00:11:31.980 --> 00:11:35.580 in the recent years? I mean, Arzak has lived 00:11:35.580 --> 00:11:38.299 off... I don't want to talk trash. I mean, Arzak 00:11:38.299 --> 00:11:43.220 is a legend. But they have lived off their reputation 00:11:43.220 --> 00:11:46.519 that they've created, as you say, 20 years ago. 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:51.879 And until they've not moved on... 50 or 60 years 00:11:51.879 --> 00:11:55.519 ago, their reputation goes that much back. Yeah, 00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:57.519 but they have not... It's so important. We were 00:11:57.519 --> 00:12:00.389 talking in the restaurant yesterday. about having 00:12:00.389 --> 00:12:03.049 to move forward. You know, you can't just like 00:12:03.049 --> 00:12:05.110 do what you do and then stick with it and never 00:12:05.110 --> 00:12:07.509 evolve. That's not going to work. That's going 00:12:07.509 --> 00:12:09.690 to work for maybe a couple of years. But in today's 00:12:09.690 --> 00:12:12.169 world, you know, five months down the line, nobody 00:12:12.169 --> 00:12:15.250 cares anymore. I know what you mean, but there 00:12:15.250 --> 00:12:17.370 is something that maybe you don't know because 00:12:17.370 --> 00:12:19.529 it's something that like not everybody knows. 00:12:19.690 --> 00:12:21.350 And I think it's very interesting. You know, 00:12:21.389 --> 00:12:25.649 Arzak was cooking classic until the year 99. 00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:29.559 He was doing super classic cuisine. I know, I 00:12:29.559 --> 00:12:32.759 know. And he actually met Ferran Adrián for that 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:34.980 reason. He said, oh, now I want to become avant 00:12:34.980 --> 00:12:38.080 -garde. And he started doing this crazy avant 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:42.220 -garde, artistic, creative, food, playful, and 00:12:42.220 --> 00:12:45.419 so on, which was the Arzak of the 2000s, which 00:12:45.419 --> 00:12:49.059 I think is the Arzak most of us like the most. 00:12:49.879 --> 00:12:52.940 Yes. I've never been a huge fan of Arzak, and 00:12:52.940 --> 00:12:56.500 I can tell you why. I believe that Juan Maria 00:12:56.500 --> 00:12:59.279 Azag must be an amazing chef, you know, especially 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:01.759 when it comes to like classic Basque cooking, 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:04.399 you know, Nouvelle Basque sort of cuisine. And 00:13:04.399 --> 00:13:08.179 pivotal also like for that. periods and for the 00:13:08.179 --> 00:13:10.379 location. For the Spanish avant -garde. Absolutely. 00:13:10.620 --> 00:13:13.159 I mean, also later, yeah, and also earlier. Yeah, 00:13:13.179 --> 00:13:16.200 he was a major figure in the two most important 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:20.240 movements in Spanish culinary, you know, Nouvelle 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:23.659 Basque and Spanish avant -garde. Yeah, but, you 00:13:23.659 --> 00:13:25.899 know, then he incorporated things that, for me, 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:28.720 they're not my style, you know. They're a little 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:31.980 bit sensationalism. Like, hey, eat this seascape 00:13:31.980 --> 00:13:35.559 and listen to sea sounds on your ears. It is, 00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:37.480 while I feel like it is important for people 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:40.240 to explore this, you know, it's important to 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:42.360 explore for the sense of exploring and for the 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:46.139 sense of trying things out. I remember in 2013, 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:49.559 when I was at Mugarets, we went to a talk, like, 00:13:49.620 --> 00:13:51.320 by the Basque Culinary Center, and Arzak was 00:13:51.320 --> 00:13:55.179 showing a dish. And he had this, like, crystal 00:13:55.179 --> 00:13:57.379 ball, he called it. One of his dishes is called 00:13:57.379 --> 00:13:59.419 the crystal ball. Like, you know, this thing 00:13:59.419 --> 00:14:02.000 that a soothsayer has, like, where she sees the 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:05.250 future in this crystal ball. And it was basically 00:14:05.250 --> 00:14:08.350 like a big bowl of cotton candy with something 00:14:08.350 --> 00:14:10.789 inside and he would put it on the plate and then 00:14:10.789 --> 00:14:13.090 he would pour this like hot chocolate sauce on 00:14:13.090 --> 00:14:15.549 top and it would like melt the whole bowl and 00:14:15.549 --> 00:14:19.789 it was like something underneath. And I was sitting 00:14:19.789 --> 00:14:22.769 there and I was like 20 years old, right? And 00:14:22.769 --> 00:14:25.370 I was like, man, like I would hate to eat that. 00:14:25.610 --> 00:14:27.649 I would absolutely hate to eat that. And you 00:14:27.649 --> 00:14:29.669 still see, I mean, this is the thing also, like 00:14:29.669 --> 00:14:32.110 just the other day I saw a dish. from a restaurant 00:14:32.110 --> 00:14:34.110 today that were doing basically the same thing. 00:14:34.269 --> 00:14:38.090 And that is cool that he did that and people 00:14:38.090 --> 00:14:39.850 are still doing it today. So it's like cotton 00:14:39.850 --> 00:14:42.870 candy, they pour sauce over it, it's gone, right? 00:14:43.549 --> 00:14:45.610 But at the same time, I'm kind of like, well, 00:14:45.690 --> 00:14:48.190 the idea is maybe like interesting and funny, 00:14:48.269 --> 00:14:50.389 but like how is the actual eating of it? Because 00:14:50.389 --> 00:14:52.470 do I want to eat, cotton candy is just sugar, 00:14:52.570 --> 00:14:56.750 that's it, right? Do I want to eat an ultra mega 00:14:56.750 --> 00:14:59.830 sweet like chocolate sugar soup? I don't think 00:14:59.830 --> 00:15:03.710 so. And this is always the thing where the two 00:15:03.710 --> 00:15:07.250 worlds, they never connected for me. You know, 00:15:07.289 --> 00:15:09.029 with El Bui, when I see El Bui, I never went 00:15:09.029 --> 00:15:11.389 to eat at El Bui, unfortunately. But I see dishes 00:15:11.389 --> 00:15:13.549 and I'm sort of like, that is very interesting. 00:15:14.110 --> 00:15:17.049 At the same time, it looks delicious, right? 00:15:17.169 --> 00:15:20.450 I feel like it would be really nice. And that's 00:15:20.450 --> 00:15:22.730 where the two worlds, they come together. But 00:15:22.730 --> 00:15:24.970 there, I never really felt that. By the way, 00:15:25.029 --> 00:15:29.559 we haven't talked about... Ooh. Yeah, tell me 00:15:29.559 --> 00:15:33.860 about it. How was it? The collaboration? We should 00:15:33.860 --> 00:15:35.580 remember that this is a podcast and people don't 00:15:35.580 --> 00:15:40.320 see what you're showing. So Eric just held up 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:42.539 a menu from a collaboration dinner that you went 00:15:42.539 --> 00:15:45.440 to between Josh Nylund, the fish wizard from 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:50.299 Australia, and another fish wizard, Elcano. Well, 00:15:50.340 --> 00:15:54.659 first of all, Fernando called. He said, dude, 00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:58.000 we have to go. It's next week. There are still 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:02.039 stables. Let's take one. So the Basque government 00:16:02.039 --> 00:16:04.179 with the Basque Culinary Center, they organized 00:16:04.179 --> 00:16:09.279 this. It's like a community to promote Basque 00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:13.460 seafood cooking here that is called Talaya. And 00:16:13.460 --> 00:16:18.870 they got also in the... you know, like in accordance 00:16:18.870 --> 00:16:21.070 with the opening of the new building. They brought 00:16:21.070 --> 00:16:23.070 like all these chefs from all over the world. 00:16:23.190 --> 00:16:25.750 And among them was Josh Nyland, who's part of 00:16:25.750 --> 00:16:28.929 the International Advisory Board. And as far 00:16:28.929 --> 00:16:32.509 as I know, Susana Nieto organized a pop -up. 00:16:32.529 --> 00:16:36.009 So suddenly you have a pop -up of Josh Nyland 00:16:36.009 --> 00:16:38.779 cooking at Elcano. It's the second time ever 00:16:38.779 --> 00:16:41.179 that someone that is not from Elcano cooks at 00:16:41.179 --> 00:16:44.080 Elcano. What was the first time? He told us. 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:46.580 We asked him. He named someone that I didn't 00:16:46.580 --> 00:16:50.320 know. But yeah, we asked. I told when we went. 00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:53.500 So then we're going. We're organizing this. And 00:16:53.500 --> 00:16:56.039 Fernando says... Hey, I have an extra table. 00:16:56.360 --> 00:16:58.740 Can you find someone? And then I started calling 00:16:58.740 --> 00:17:01.240 people, asking around. And then suddenly Sebas 00:17:01.240 --> 00:17:04.759 from Kai Sushi Bar, he was going on his own because 00:17:04.759 --> 00:17:06.579 he didn't have anyone. So he joined the table. 00:17:06.700 --> 00:17:08.799 Amazing. So suddenly we have like the best sushi 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:13.319 chef in town with two fish wizards cooking for 00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:17.569 us. It was really, I think. top three experiences 00:17:17.569 --> 00:17:20.650 I've ever had in my life. And in that package, 00:17:20.650 --> 00:17:24.849 I would say Echavarri and Noma are in that package. 00:17:25.970 --> 00:17:28.069 And dude, it was incredible because you would 00:17:28.069 --> 00:17:31.470 have dishes from Nyland and then from Elcano, 00:17:31.710 --> 00:17:34.450 one after the other. As soon as we arrived, we 00:17:34.450 --> 00:17:36.289 asked, I thought, like, how are you feeling? 00:17:36.410 --> 00:17:38.150 And he was like, I'm so nervous, but I've never 00:17:38.150 --> 00:17:39.950 been nervous. It's my own restaurant, you know? 00:17:41.230 --> 00:17:46.119 That's so precious. Yeah, and that guy, you know, 00:17:46.140 --> 00:17:49.220 he's so humble and so cool. I think since we're 00:17:49.220 --> 00:17:52.660 talking about hospitality, I think he is hospitality 00:17:52.660 --> 00:17:57.900 embodied in a person. Aitor? Aitor Arregui, yeah. 00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:03.900 You see him serving the grilled fish and explaining. 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:09.240 you know, the currents, this fish swam in, the 00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:12.400 nutrients they had. And they cooked basically 00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:16.299 with what got in from the fisheries that day. 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:19.380 And they know, you know, they have, like, such 00:18:19.380 --> 00:18:23.160 a close relationship with the fishermen. Like, 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:26.319 their main slogan is, to cook well, you have 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:32.380 to buy well. So their main... their main ambition 00:18:32.380 --> 00:18:35.960 is to be the best buyers and to get the absolute 00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:38.180 best fish money can buy. Yes. You know, and then 00:18:38.180 --> 00:18:41.640 they just grill it. They grill it like, it really 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:44.619 has this, going there, it really has this connection 00:18:44.619 --> 00:18:48.779 with primitive aspect of grilling. Primal. You 00:18:48.779 --> 00:18:51.079 know, as you're walking into the restaurant, 00:18:51.339 --> 00:18:53.940 the whole fish is the first thing you see because 00:18:53.940 --> 00:18:56.859 they're leaving it outside to get temperature 00:18:56.859 --> 00:18:59.299 before they throw it to the grill, which is the, 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:02.819 very traditional Basque way, you will see. And 00:19:02.819 --> 00:19:04.900 then we walk into the restaurant. Also, everybody 00:19:04.900 --> 00:19:08.380 was there, journalists, and, you know, a lot 00:19:08.380 --> 00:19:11.180 of people didn't want to miss that dinner. There 00:19:11.180 --> 00:19:14.200 were also even some dishes that were, I think, 00:19:14.259 --> 00:19:18.359 the chipiron, that Nyland did the chipironas, 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:21.940 like a raw chipiron, and Elcano did the sauce, 00:19:21.980 --> 00:19:24.099 and so they were mixed. But then some classic 00:19:24.099 --> 00:19:28.700 of Elcano. One of my favorites was the bone marrow 00:19:28.700 --> 00:19:32.769 from Mero. Mero is... How do you say mero in 00:19:32.769 --> 00:19:35.910 English? I think it's a grouper. Mero. So they 00:19:35.910 --> 00:19:44.150 call it bone mero. Nice. What I like about El 00:19:44.150 --> 00:19:47.390 Cano is that this will be, you know, maybe... 00:19:47.769 --> 00:19:51.650 Just the legs of the lobster or the parza that 00:19:51.650 --> 00:19:53.890 most people will discard. That's what they serve 00:19:53.890 --> 00:19:56.289 you. And they tell you how to eat it. And they 00:19:56.289 --> 00:19:59.990 give you, you know, like this wet napkin so you 00:19:59.990 --> 00:20:02.529 can eat with your hands. And really, that's what 00:20:02.529 --> 00:20:05.710 I mean with the primitive aspect of eating grilled 00:20:05.710 --> 00:20:08.549 and getting your hands dirty. I have my notes, 00:20:08.650 --> 00:20:11.769 but I don't remember all the dishes. There was 00:20:11.769 --> 00:20:16.230 one with seaweed that was amazing of Georgian 00:20:16.230 --> 00:20:20.490 Island. Also, fish eye, fish liver. The fish 00:20:20.490 --> 00:20:23.670 eye was amazing. I've had fish eye before, but 00:20:23.670 --> 00:20:27.990 it's never ever something that I said that I 00:20:27.990 --> 00:20:30.349 enjoyed or liked or said, oh, I would have this 00:20:30.349 --> 00:20:33.970 again. There it was. really fine and subtle and 00:20:33.970 --> 00:20:36.710 properly cooked. I have some videos I will share 00:20:36.710 --> 00:20:41.329 them when we publish this episode of Aitor cutting 00:20:41.329 --> 00:20:44.650 up the fish and explaining here is a, you know, 00:20:44.650 --> 00:20:46.710 like he will explain you every single part, how 00:20:46.710 --> 00:20:49.150 to eat it, what part of the fish is, what it 00:20:49.150 --> 00:20:51.650 has that color, is it more bitter or more, and 00:20:51.650 --> 00:20:55.230 then he breaks the whole fish apart, which is 00:20:55.230 --> 00:20:58.589 the same thing Josh Nyland does back in the kitchen, 00:20:58.710 --> 00:21:01.059 right? And maybe one of the most impressive things 00:21:01.059 --> 00:21:05.279 of the dinner was dessert. Because I think we 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:07.599 talked about this two episodes ago when we were 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:11.400 talking about savory desserts. Like, are his 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:14.920 desserts fishy or not? And I really wanted to 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:19.619 solve this mystery. And that was the first time 00:21:19.619 --> 00:21:22.299 he came out to talk with us. And he says, like, 00:21:22.420 --> 00:21:26.279 well, what we did here, it was like a tartlet, 00:21:26.339 --> 00:21:30.700 you know, like a shell full with berries. incredible 00:21:30.700 --> 00:21:33.259 berries that are now in season. Like, really, 00:21:33.460 --> 00:21:36.960 it has to be, like, tactile -wise, maybe the 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:39.259 best I've ever had. You know, like having a shell 00:21:39.259 --> 00:21:43.200 with stuff inside. It was that and a bowl of 00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:45.859 vanilla ice cream on top. And he comes and he 00:21:45.859 --> 00:21:49.299 explains that if I'm cooking, there's fish. But 00:21:49.299 --> 00:21:52.759 the vision here was not to do something that 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:57.720 bring fish flavors in a dessert, but... to use 00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:00.759 the whole fish and all all its functionalities 00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:03.420 for everything you can do so we what we did is 00:22:03.420 --> 00:22:05.880 we took the collagen out of the fish i don't 00:22:05.880 --> 00:22:08.000 know what they did but it doesn't taste fishy 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:12.759 and they use it as a protein to emulsify the 00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:15.259 ice cream basically that's what they did so if 00:22:15.259 --> 00:22:17.480 you think about it there are many gelatins that 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:21.170 are made out of fish not only of pork And they're 00:22:21.170 --> 00:22:25.710 not fishy at all. So it was basically a vanilla 00:22:25.710 --> 00:22:31.130 ice cream, not fishy, with the berries. And then 00:22:31.130 --> 00:22:35.009 the funny part is Sebas from Kai Sushi, who for 00:22:35.009 --> 00:22:38.329 him fish is his mother language as well, he was 00:22:38.329 --> 00:22:41.069 eating and he started me like, dude, my brain 00:22:41.069 --> 00:22:42.970 doesn't know what to do. You know, it's kind 00:22:42.970 --> 00:22:47.539 of like one side and... I'm tasting the umami 00:22:47.539 --> 00:22:50.019 of the fish in a very subtle way, but no, you're 00:22:50.019 --> 00:22:52.660 not supposed to go there. It's supposed to be 00:22:52.660 --> 00:22:56.460 sweet and dessert. And yeah, that was it. Like 00:22:56.460 --> 00:22:58.900 an incredible experience. Also, the sommelier 00:22:58.900 --> 00:23:02.160 gave us some incredible wines. It was really, 00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:04.140 really nice. I really, really enjoyed it. We 00:23:04.140 --> 00:23:06.960 should go to Elcano, man. Man, I really want 00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:09.460 to. I have to. But hey, this is like, this again 00:23:09.460 --> 00:23:11.480 brings me back to like hospitality because that 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:13.640 is also hospitality, you know, inviting somebody 00:23:13.640 --> 00:23:16.160 else into your space and like the collaboration 00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:18.980 because, you know, maybe this is something that 00:23:18.980 --> 00:23:22.339 we need to add to the thing of hospitality. It's 00:23:22.339 --> 00:23:25.410 the collaboration aspect. There is a collaboration 00:23:25.410 --> 00:23:30.450 between host and guest, right? In the perfect 00:23:30.450 --> 00:23:33.309 world, right? It's a giving and a taking from 00:23:33.309 --> 00:23:35.750 both sides. And I don't mean product and money, 00:23:35.849 --> 00:23:39.490 right? A sort of like experience and a feedback 00:23:39.490 --> 00:23:42.509 and an exchange. And I think that is a really, 00:23:42.549 --> 00:23:44.670 really important aspect. I mean, sort of like 00:23:44.670 --> 00:23:46.970 Josh Schneider from literally the other side 00:23:46.970 --> 00:23:50.819 of the world. Two people, Aitor, right? As humble 00:23:50.819 --> 00:23:54.619 as he is, international reference for fish cooking. 00:23:54.819 --> 00:23:58.059 I mean, amazing, right? Complete expert in what 00:23:58.059 --> 00:24:01.059 he does. And Josh and Island, very, very different. 00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:03.779 Same subject, right? Completely different part 00:24:03.779 --> 00:24:06.279 of the world, different fish, but also an aspect. 00:24:06.460 --> 00:24:08.660 And these two people collide. And Aitor, who 00:24:08.660 --> 00:24:11.059 could be like very sort of like kind of, you 00:24:11.059 --> 00:24:12.779 know, oh, this is what I do, blah, blah, blah, 00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:15.599 opens himself up. And we're talking about a Basque 00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:17.319 chef here. They're not the most open -minded 00:24:17.319 --> 00:24:21.150 sort of people, right? opens his house, his home, 00:24:21.329 --> 00:24:26.849 very receiving and being able to share also and 00:24:26.849 --> 00:24:30.049 just being happy for that exchange, I think that 00:24:30.049 --> 00:24:33.069 is a very, very crucial part of hospitality too. 00:24:33.190 --> 00:24:36.029 And ideally, I feel like this would happen between 00:24:36.029 --> 00:24:40.529 a restaurateur and the guests coming to a restaurant 00:24:40.529 --> 00:24:43.089 also. When you make something, you say, hey, 00:24:43.150 --> 00:24:45.319 because you're making yourself vulnerable. You 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:47.380 know, this is the hostility part also. You're 00:24:47.380 --> 00:24:49.740 kind of like, I'm opening my space, but also 00:24:49.740 --> 00:24:52.359 I'm giving you something from me. This is, I've 00:24:52.359 --> 00:24:54.200 made this for you. There's part of me in it. 00:24:54.259 --> 00:24:56.259 How do you receive it? And some people like take 00:24:56.259 --> 00:24:58.960 it. How do they respond? What is the feedback 00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:01.099 they give you? Ideally, it's very productive 00:25:01.099 --> 00:25:03.700 and it's very beautiful, right? I think that's 00:25:03.700 --> 00:25:06.200 maybe something to be taken away from that. Yeah, 00:25:06.259 --> 00:25:07.779 also something very interesting is that they 00:25:07.779 --> 00:25:12.109 cooked. He did cuts that they say, we've never 00:25:12.109 --> 00:25:15.349 seen these fish cuts here. You know, like he's 00:25:15.349 --> 00:25:17.730 saying that. And when we were talking, I was 00:25:17.730 --> 00:25:20.950 like, dude, this guy is such an absolute next 00:25:20.950 --> 00:25:26.150 level nerd. You know, like, I think that was 00:25:26.150 --> 00:25:33.029 pretty cool. But yeah, amazing experience. That's 00:25:33.029 --> 00:25:35.769 it for this week's episode of Potluck Food Talks. 00:25:35.769 --> 00:25:38.150 If you like what we're doing, Make sure to subscribe 00:25:38.150 --> 00:25:40.410 to the podcast so you never miss an episode. 00:25:40.789 --> 00:25:42.869 You can also find us on Instagram and TikTok 00:25:42.869 --> 00:25:46.369 as potluckfoodtalks. The show airs every Monday.