You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Hi,
everyone. Welcome to Potluck Food Talks. Today
we have a special guest, Juliano Tero. He's creative
chef at Mugaritz, one of the most creative restaurants
ever, and also distributor of some of the most
bizarre content on the... the most bizarre food
content. He posts stories called Gastro Cringe.
How are you doing, Julian? Hey, how are you?
Well, I don't think it's bizarre. I think it's
necessary to give this kind of sight to the gastronomy.
I think if we always see a good part of gastronomy,
there are very good people showing part of the
recipes, the techniques, the teams and environments,
but also there is a... bad, the astronomy, let's
say that is bad, but maybe it's not bad, that
showed the worst part of being a human. Yeah,
like I've seen these stories, I mean, any crazy
thing you can imagine, like people using, I don't
know, like skin as part of food, or making shoes
with ice cream, or the most cringe. Cringe things
you could imagine around food, around his stories
on Instagram. How often do you post that? Like
every day? Every two weeks, more or less, I post
a compilatory of these things that normally is
divided into themes using food as strange things
or using food without seeing the importance of
food. That is the part of this. You say some
examples, no? using ice cream for making a boot
or let's do this kind of tiramisu bathroom. Let's
put a tiramisu in a bathtub and start eating
all this food. And for me, it's very linked with
scarcity and with hunger, also with capital use.
The other part is the thing that there's a lot
of new food criticizers, let's say, that go to
restaurants and say their opinions without any
knowledge. For me, it's a way also to expose
people and to fight against that kind of opinions.
Because if we stay quiet, if we don't say anything,
they normally think they are right. You mean
like influencers, TikTokers that go to restaurants
and give uninformed opinions? Yeah. Yeah, for
me, I think it's a plague. It's a thing that
started like not so long ago, like five years
ago. Before that, we don't have any clue what
the people used to do. For me, it's a trend.
It's going to be a trend during maybe other five
years until maybe social media is less important
for our lives or a new social media appears maybe
with... EA or something like that. I think there's
a lot of people living with astronomy, but not
participating in astronomy. And that's a problem.
I wanted to go through your journey. As a chef,
now, like I said, Julián is working as a creative
chef in one of the most creative restaurants
ever. How and when did you start cooking? Like,
was it something you always wanted to do? Or
like many of us, was it like you wanted to do
something else and you ended up cooking? I was
born in Lugo, in Valencia. It's a small city
in Spain. I have the need of going away from
Lugo. When starting to Madrid. to be a librarian.
Because I like books, I like to read, I started
working in Madrid in some, not restaurants, but
some bars. I realized that I like astronomy and
the way that people work in astronomy. So I made
a small degree in Madrid, Formatio Profesional,
it's called here in Spain. That is two years
to be a line cook and I started to work in Madrid.
But I think I always wanted to be a chef. I always
cooked with my grandma, I cooked with my mom.
I was very curious about food when I was a child.
And then, when I was working in Madrid, I started
to take all my money, I saved my money, to go
to El Guli. What year was this, more or less?
2010. More or less. And then El Bulli closed.
They got me the brand, but they closed. So I
have a lot of money. Not a lot of money, but
I have money. I want to be more than a chef.
And I thought that El Bulli was the path. But
a new culinary school, a new university appears.
That was a culinary center. And I applied. They
denied me. They don't want me to go at the beginning.
And then in September, they called me, okay,
there's one spot left if you want to come. And
I went here to San Sebastian. And I started to
see food in another way because I never be involved
with science. I never be involved with gastronomic
culture like here in San Sebastian. And I started
to try. To go everywhere, right? To go to the
best places that I need to go to learn. So finally,
at the end, being able to be to a widget foundation.
and to be the first one to work, the first one
people study or people in formation working in
El Bulli Foundation. So it was very nice for
me. Do you think your background as a librarian
had anything to do with that? No, because I never
finished the library science. I think I'm very
worse at that. Maybe they changed a little bit
of my mind because I'm more organized. I never
go to the class when I was studying library science.
I prefer to go to other places. The good thing,
the good part, when I was in the Bully Foundation,
that I've been able to share the space and the
work with the people who made the Bully. In that
moment, there were people of Disfrutar. It was
Oriol, Eduardo, Mateo working in the Bully. It
was Marcos Pineda, Eugenio Diego. All the big
names that you know because you used to see the
documentaries or you read the books and the people
actually working with you. And the most important
thing for me and the most shocking thing was
that Ferran was there all the time. Was the first
to come and the last to leave. Wow. What a crazy
privilege. Yeah, you were probably one of the
very last ones to work with that whole team together
with Ferran and Oriol and Eduardo and Mateo at
the same time in the same room. I think yes,
I think yes. Maybe there are some people more
that worked at the time, but yeah, I was very
lucky to be there. I learned a lot and I realized
why they were the first restaurant in the world
so many times. Because they work very hard, they
work very focused. And they don't let anything
without investigate. Well, you were working on
El Bullipedia back then or on a different project?
Yeah. The Sapiens project or what was the project
back then? Yeah, when I was there, there was
no Sapiens. We realized, we started working with
Sapiens during that time. We created the term
Sapiens in that time. In that moment, we called
it Bullipedia, but we don't have the Sapiens,
we don't know if... The books are going to be,
I don't know how many books they have right now,
20 books or something like that. A lot of books,
a lot of knowledge, a lot of different things
that they made in that time. They work with Telefonica
for making different kind of user experience
to learn. It was very nice because you also,
every week, there come a lot of people that maybe
you know, like Tony Segarra, the branding producer,
or people that do. working at a very high level,
collaborating with a team. So it was very nourishing
for me, for myself. How would you describe Oriol
Castro? That's something, because I've heard
so many people that have worked with him and
they put him on such a high level of person and
also of creative force. Do you have any anecdote
that you can share or anything about him that
you could say? Maybe not an adult, but I think
Oriol is one of the kindest person I ever know
in the industry. It was very nice with all the
people. It was very, they know the names of everyone.
They, it's very humble. In that moment, you don't,
you know, start to open more or less. The rest
are in cadaqués, but Disfrutar was a thing that
maybe was in their minds, but it's not right
now that are the... the top of the gastronomy
at that moment, they were creating all these
things that they have now. But for me, it's amazing
because nowadays when we see each other, it's
very, very warm. It's people that are very, very
kind. Him and Eduardo and Mateo, they are this
kind of people. And they deserve everything that
they have right now. Yeah, just yesterday we
were talking about going to Day 2, Disfrutar
or Enigma is the nearest that you can be to go
to El Bulli nowadays, right? The next generation
after El Bulli. And then you got back to the
Vasco de Nari Center. Was this like a... An academic
internship? It was an academic internship. And
then I worked with them in the summer and then
started working with Mugaritz and with them in
a common project that was in that kind of the
first, let's say, project that involves Wikipedia
or the Cuyo Foundation, Mugaritz and Pascualini
Center to put this kind of way of thinking in
the academy scholarship. So I was very young.
I have a very pressure of a lot of people because
then in two, three months, I realized that I
have to make six hours of class in vascular center
in the first year. In that time, I think I have
34, 35 years. For me, it was like, okay, I don't
know if I'm ready to do that, but I'm going to
do it. I was very stressed because the ball was
in the middle. And sometimes nobody wants to
take decisions of the things. And you have to
take a decision for them. For sure, you have
to take a decision for three big corporations.
And you are a small monkey in that moment. It
was like a completely crazy moment of my life.
And then, with this project, I started to work
with Mugaris. Did you do the whole stagiaire
process? Did you work direct to the line or direct
to the creative lab? How was that? Entering Mugaritz.
I entered, recommended by Ferran, in the R &B
team. I only stayed two, three months as an internship
in Mugaritz and then I had my first contract.
For me, it was, of course, it was complicated
because in the process of Mugaritz, you cannot
do normally this. You have to be an internship,
then you have to be a line cook, then you have
to be a chef de partie, then you have to be a
chef, and then you have... Maybe you have to
go to R &D. Yeah, I know. I was just thinking,
for example, I was thinking of Diego Prado, for
example. He has all the conditions to be in the
R &D team of Mugaritz. And he has been maybe
one of the persons that has been the most in
Mugaritz in one year. I think there was a year
where he went like 11 times in one year. But
he told me, yeah, you don't get hired in Mugaritz.
That just doesn't happen. Not like that. Yeah.
That was like a big exception, right? Yes, a
big exception and also a big pressure to make
things right. I know in that moment that I'm
very lucky. It's for me a dream. I remember when
I have my first books of Mugaritz in 2004. And
then 10 years later, I start to work on Mugaritz.
This is my favorite one. This is my favorite
one. And I have it all signed with the team back
then. And then I finally made some of the books
of Mugares, so nice for me. It's like when you
are a fan of something, a fan of a rock band,
and then you are in a concert and the singer
says to you, OK, you are going to play the bass
with us today. And you say, what? And then you
come and then you go with the tour with them.
Twelve years later, you see, okay, I'm the guy
in the rock band who can say to one in the audience,
come with us. And it's nice, the process. Yeah,
that's really crazy. I have to say I'm a bit
jealous because I was a stagiaire in Mugaritz
and I dreamt about being in the creative position.
I was just for a short stash back then in 2005,
like really early. Yeah, and how has been the
experience of working in Mugaritz with people
like Ramon, like Dani Lassa, like Javi, traveling
around the world? What can you share about that?
Well, it was very nourishing. You say you work
with a lot of people, but sometimes for me right
now, that maybe my last steps in Mugaritz, for
me, the most important thing is not also the
people who are there at the team that are very
important for sure. And I get to know people
very important like Leire or Daddy. But for me,
the most important part are all the people who
come every year, like as a stagiaire, as an internship,
as one year only, because they are the people
who move actually the machine. Yeah, they also
bring the fresh blood, right? Like the energy.
Yes, and for me, it's the most important thing
because people in the history of Mugaris, maybe
you can count 10. In that 27 years. But people
who make us an internship in Mugaritz, there's
thousands. And the people who put later the business
or restaurants or other things with the trademark
of Mugaritz, with this kind, there are people
who only one year. So it's amazing force of Mugaritz,
but it's not about the person. It's about the
environment. And I really believe that the environment
is the thing that makes it work. I completely
agree. For me, there is magic in that. I remember
when I first came back to the Basque Country
10 years later after being in Mugaritz, just
the smell of the forest triggered something in
my head, like brought me back, you know, to being
there in the morning, walking into the restaurant.
It was like a very, very magical experience.
It was the first place that I went after leaving
home, living with my parents. I was 19 years
old. I went directly to... to Mugaritz, you know,
like Marcel picked me up in the train station.
That was a, yeah, like a crazy time. Also something
very interesting, and this is something we have
talked a lot about in the show, the approach
of Mugaritz, that is, I think it has something
that not other restaurant in the world has, that
is this thing that flavor is not the most important
thing. For us, something important is... that
is interesting, that is challenging, that is
stimulating to your senses or to your intellect,
same as a work of art could be. There is this
super interesting documentary that you appear
in, what's the name, Without Bread or Dessert,
that was published last year, where you go through
the whole creative process of a year. What can
you say about that, about that approach that
is so unique? I think that it's necessary, this
kind of approach. I think that nowadays, I think
there are more restaurants that they do the same.
We are not unique. But in the moment that Mubariz
tried to make this kind of approach to the gastronomy,
for sure it was completely unique. The other
big restaurant in that moment was Ibuli or Noma,
and they do more comfort food. Even they use
a lot of techniques and a lot of new approaches.
It was more comfort food. Mugares has this kind
of sense of trying to challenge people, as you
said, but it was very good during a lot of time.
But nowadays, I think Mugares is also trying
to peace because they have, because it's a business
as well. It's a 27 years business that you cannot
think Mugares without that. We have to get money.
And I think also Mugares changed a lot. During
these 27 years, because when you were in Mubarak,
you were in the kind of herbal, wild kind of
inspiration. Ten years ago, they started all
this kind of wild, crazy ferment. And nowadays,
I don't know exactly what is the point, because
I think we have to see with five, six years in
advance, let's say. to talk about the history
of Mogadishu, but it changed a lot. And I think
it's one of the values of Mogadishu, that they
change. They can change. That's why there's no
clothes, that it was still relevant, and the
people talk about us like a big, big, important
place. There is a new topic for every season,
right? I remember in the documentary, the topic
was... the things that you can't see, like everything
that is invisible but is present. And what was
it this year? Well, I don't remember. I usually
don't think about these kind of topics. I think
they're important because it's seasonal, but
I always forget that during the season. Something
important is the dynamic of the teams that you
work with when you create the dishes. Like you
have like this force, as you mentioned, of people
that come from all over the world, these young
chefs that want to spend a season there and nourish
themselves technically and intellectually. So
there are like team builds for specific dishes.
There's like every dish has a team and how does
it work? And a leader also and also like a mentor.
Is it something like that more or less? In R
&D, we are the leaders of this kind of processes.
The recipes are the techniques, but the people
who are going to be with us, that are the ones
who stay during a year with us and then stay
like this kind of four or five months more to
make this kind of creative system, they are the
people who actually develop the recipes. They
are people who have to set recipes and change
things and try to... to figure out what is kind
of strange topics that we are with some sometimes
we we put in let's say this is an hypothetical
we are going to make a plate about luxury but
we don't tell people what is luxury or what or
which ingredients is going to be the plate so
they have to figure out and that's why it's important
they have to be that morales has to have young
plus every year because you can manage ideas,
but your ideas are limited in time. I have a
theory for me, it's very important. We are very
good as creative chefs when we are young because
we have a pack of knowledge and of memories when
we are children. We have like 20 years of knowledge
in the setup of our minds, but when you start
to work, you... You can use a lot of these kind
of ideas. And if you don't nourish yourself a
lot, reading, traveling, seeing other restaurants,
you cannot go as fast as you need to survive
as a creative chef. So it's very important that
young chefs with all these fresh ideas come and
to make a work that is shared and that is collaborative.
Because it's the same thing that I said before.
It's not about the names, it's about the environment
and how we can create a thing together. No, absolutely.
I think that the magic about being in Mugaritz,
I remember when I was there, all of the station
chefs, the chef de parties, now they're famous
chefs on their own worldwide, you know, like,
and many of the stagiaires. Also, so I think
I was in a very, very special year. Probably
every year is special, but that was my year,
you know. I also wanted to ask something I want
to know, like in a restaurant like Mugaritz,
when do you know that a dish is ready for service?
Like how many tryouts, which is the indicator?
Because if delicious is not the indicator, how
do you, is it intuitive? Is there like an approach?
How do you do that? Well, the thing is that a
dish is never ready. But in Mugares and in other
places. But because when you create a dish, when
you serve a dish, people that are going to eat
that dish are going to change and are going to
finish the meaning of the dish. And sometimes
this kind of feedback helps you to make things
differently. And also, maybe you make a dish
four, five, six times, but the people who are
going to make it, Every day during a few months,
I'm going to change a lot of things. So at this,
when we start the season and when we finish the
season, it's going to be different. And for sure,
if we continue the season, it's going to be different
as well. Actually, you don't finish at this.
You abandon this. It's like, I think Picasso
said that about the art, that the art is never
finished. You have to leave it. people have to
finish it for you. Yeah, I think Duchamp said
that. Yeah, that the work is finished by the
receptor, by the public. And I also, I don't
know if it was Hemingway or some writer that
said that a work is never finished, only published.
So, like, you publish it, but that doesn't mean
it's finished. Yeah, I guess... Both of those
ideas come together with this one. But on the
creative process, how many tests, like kitchen
tests, do you make or like a random number? Is
it 10, 20, 100? Like how many for this? Maybe
you have an aha moment and you create a dish
in a few tests because you have it very clear
in your mind. And sometimes for making a new
technique, maybe it's four years. to develop
it. I remember when we started using Bendicium
aviarensis, that is the fungus that grows in
some sausages like Fuet or Satichonca in Spain,
that takes us like four years to grow it safely
in the way we like it. And once, because it was
a human mistake, they changed the proportions
that we normally use it and grow so fast that
you can start to use it. without any harm to
the people. So it depends, it depends. But for
saying that, if maybe if you work with this two
months, you can work with 30, 40 tests every
recipe. Super interesting. Thank you so much
for sharing all of this with us. And it was a
pleasure having you with us. That's it for this
week's episode of Potluck Food Talks. If you
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