WEBVTT 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:07.339 You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Hi, 00:00:07.339 --> 00:00:13.500 everyone. Welcome to Potluck Food Talks. Today 00:00:13.500 --> 00:00:16.800 we have a special guest, Juliano Tero. He's creative 00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:20.000 chef at Mugaritz, one of the most creative restaurants 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:24.879 ever, and also distributor of some of the most 00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:29.530 bizarre content on the... the most bizarre food 00:00:29.530 --> 00:00:33.030 content. He posts stories called Gastro Cringe. 00:00:33.210 --> 00:00:35.189 How are you doing, Julian? Hey, how are you? 00:00:35.429 --> 00:00:38.469 Well, I don't think it's bizarre. I think it's 00:00:38.469 --> 00:00:42.570 necessary to give this kind of sight to the gastronomy. 00:00:42.909 --> 00:00:46.890 I think if we always see a good part of gastronomy, 00:00:47.030 --> 00:00:51.009 there are very good people showing part of the 00:00:51.009 --> 00:00:54.189 recipes, the techniques, the teams and environments, 00:00:54.369 --> 00:00:57.280 but also there is a... bad, the astronomy, let's 00:00:57.280 --> 00:01:00.000 say that is bad, but maybe it's not bad, that 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:05.379 showed the worst part of being a human. Yeah, 00:01:05.459 --> 00:01:08.760 like I've seen these stories, I mean, any crazy 00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:12.000 thing you can imagine, like people using, I don't 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:16.500 know, like skin as part of food, or making shoes 00:01:16.500 --> 00:01:21.969 with ice cream, or the most cringe. Cringe things 00:01:21.969 --> 00:01:25.329 you could imagine around food, around his stories 00:01:25.329 --> 00:01:28.250 on Instagram. How often do you post that? Like 00:01:28.250 --> 00:01:30.730 every day? Every two weeks, more or less, I post 00:01:30.730 --> 00:01:34.349 a compilatory of these things that normally is 00:01:34.349 --> 00:01:38.950 divided into themes using food as strange things 00:01:38.950 --> 00:01:43.930 or using food without seeing the importance of 00:01:43.930 --> 00:01:47.430 food. That is the part of this. You say some 00:01:47.430 --> 00:01:50.890 examples, no? using ice cream for making a boot 00:01:50.890 --> 00:01:56.129 or let's do this kind of tiramisu bathroom. Let's 00:01:56.129 --> 00:01:59.290 put a tiramisu in a bathtub and start eating 00:01:59.290 --> 00:02:02.269 all this food. And for me, it's very linked with 00:02:02.269 --> 00:02:04.989 scarcity and with hunger, also with capital use. 00:02:05.569 --> 00:02:09.389 The other part is the thing that there's a lot 00:02:09.389 --> 00:02:13.590 of new food criticizers, let's say, that go to 00:02:13.590 --> 00:02:17.169 restaurants and say their opinions without any 00:02:17.169 --> 00:02:21.090 knowledge. For me, it's a way also to expose 00:02:21.090 --> 00:02:27.270 people and to fight against that kind of opinions. 00:02:27.889 --> 00:02:31.810 Because if we stay quiet, if we don't say anything, 00:02:32.169 --> 00:02:34.750 they normally think they are right. You mean 00:02:34.750 --> 00:02:38.969 like influencers, TikTokers that go to restaurants 00:02:38.969 --> 00:02:44.169 and give uninformed opinions? Yeah. Yeah, for 00:02:44.169 --> 00:02:48.560 me, I think it's a plague. It's a thing that 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:52.500 started like not so long ago, like five years 00:02:52.500 --> 00:02:56.960 ago. Before that, we don't have any clue what 00:02:56.960 --> 00:03:02.379 the people used to do. For me, it's a trend. 00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:06.039 It's going to be a trend during maybe other five 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:10.219 years until maybe social media is less important 00:03:10.219 --> 00:03:13.400 for our lives or a new social media appears maybe 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:16.740 with... EA or something like that. I think there's 00:03:16.740 --> 00:03:20.919 a lot of people living with astronomy, but not 00:03:20.919 --> 00:03:25.099 participating in astronomy. And that's a problem. 00:03:25.259 --> 00:03:29.180 I wanted to go through your journey. As a chef, 00:03:29.259 --> 00:03:32.639 now, like I said, Julián is working as a creative 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:34.379 chef in one of the most creative restaurants 00:03:34.379 --> 00:03:37.539 ever. How and when did you start cooking? Like, 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:39.479 was it something you always wanted to do? Or 00:03:39.479 --> 00:03:43.520 like many of us, was it like you wanted to do 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:46.680 something else and you ended up cooking? I was 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:49.800 born in Lugo, in Valencia. It's a small city 00:03:49.800 --> 00:03:54.539 in Spain. I have the need of going away from 00:03:54.539 --> 00:03:59.460 Lugo. When starting to Madrid. to be a librarian. 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:03.000 Because I like books, I like to read, I started 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:06.439 working in Madrid in some, not restaurants, but 00:04:06.439 --> 00:04:10.419 some bars. I realized that I like astronomy and 00:04:10.419 --> 00:04:15.479 the way that people work in astronomy. So I made 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:18.800 a small degree in Madrid, Formatio Profesional, 00:04:18.920 --> 00:04:21.259 it's called here in Spain. That is two years 00:04:21.259 --> 00:04:26.519 to be a line cook and I started to work in Madrid. 00:04:27.050 --> 00:04:31.470 But I think I always wanted to be a chef. I always 00:04:31.470 --> 00:04:33.889 cooked with my grandma, I cooked with my mom. 00:04:34.230 --> 00:04:40.189 I was very curious about food when I was a child. 00:04:40.910 --> 00:04:45.750 And then, when I was working in Madrid, I started 00:04:45.750 --> 00:04:50.610 to take all my money, I saved my money, to go 00:04:50.610 --> 00:04:53.189 to El Guli. What year was this, more or less? 00:04:53.310 --> 00:04:56.750 2010. More or less. And then El Bulli closed. 00:04:57.029 --> 00:05:00.889 They got me the brand, but they closed. So I 00:05:00.889 --> 00:05:03.750 have a lot of money. Not a lot of money, but 00:05:03.750 --> 00:05:07.050 I have money. I want to be more than a chef. 00:05:07.209 --> 00:05:11.350 And I thought that El Bulli was the path. But 00:05:11.350 --> 00:05:15.269 a new culinary school, a new university appears. 00:05:15.449 --> 00:05:19.649 That was a culinary center. And I applied. They 00:05:19.649 --> 00:05:22.649 denied me. They don't want me to go at the beginning. 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:25.079 And then in September, they called me, okay, 00:05:25.180 --> 00:05:29.259 there's one spot left if you want to come. And 00:05:29.259 --> 00:05:33.120 I went here to San Sebastian. And I started to 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:37.019 see food in another way because I never be involved 00:05:37.019 --> 00:05:39.220 with science. I never be involved with gastronomic 00:05:39.220 --> 00:05:43.240 culture like here in San Sebastian. And I started 00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:47.279 to try. To go everywhere, right? To go to the 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:51.160 best places that I need to go to learn. So finally, 00:05:51.339 --> 00:05:54.199 at the end, being able to be to a widget foundation. 00:05:54.810 --> 00:05:58.089 and to be the first one to work, the first one 00:05:58.089 --> 00:06:01.490 people study or people in formation working in 00:06:01.490 --> 00:06:04.649 El Bulli Foundation. So it was very nice for 00:06:04.649 --> 00:06:07.790 me. Do you think your background as a librarian 00:06:07.790 --> 00:06:11.589 had anything to do with that? No, because I never 00:06:11.589 --> 00:06:14.750 finished the library science. I think I'm very 00:06:14.750 --> 00:06:17.209 worse at that. Maybe they changed a little bit 00:06:17.209 --> 00:06:20.410 of my mind because I'm more organized. I never 00:06:20.410 --> 00:06:23.709 go to the class when I was studying library science. 00:06:24.410 --> 00:06:27.430 I prefer to go to other places. The good thing, 00:06:27.470 --> 00:06:30.069 the good part, when I was in the Bully Foundation, 00:06:30.110 --> 00:06:34.610 that I've been able to share the space and the 00:06:34.610 --> 00:06:38.029 work with the people who made the Bully. In that 00:06:38.029 --> 00:06:40.350 moment, there were people of Disfrutar. It was 00:06:40.350 --> 00:06:43.829 Oriol, Eduardo, Mateo working in the Bully. It 00:06:43.829 --> 00:06:47.019 was Marcos Pineda, Eugenio Diego. All the big 00:06:47.019 --> 00:06:51.439 names that you know because you used to see the 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:55.620 documentaries or you read the books and the people 00:06:55.620 --> 00:06:59.060 actually working with you. And the most important 00:06:59.060 --> 00:07:01.339 thing for me and the most shocking thing was 00:07:01.339 --> 00:07:05.000 that Ferran was there all the time. Was the first 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:09.199 to come and the last to leave. Wow. What a crazy 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:13.220 privilege. Yeah, you were probably one of the 00:07:13.220 --> 00:07:15.720 very last ones to work with that whole team together 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:18.639 with Ferran and Oriol and Eduardo and Mateo at 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:21.019 the same time in the same room. I think yes, 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:22.819 I think yes. Maybe there are some people more 00:07:22.819 --> 00:07:25.759 that worked at the time, but yeah, I was very 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:29.100 lucky to be there. I learned a lot and I realized 00:07:29.100 --> 00:07:32.540 why they were the first restaurant in the world 00:07:32.540 --> 00:07:36.360 so many times. Because they work very hard, they 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:40.050 work very focused. And they don't let anything 00:07:40.050 --> 00:07:44.990 without investigate. Well, you were working on 00:07:44.990 --> 00:07:47.889 El Bullipedia back then or on a different project? 00:07:48.089 --> 00:07:51.310 Yeah. The Sapiens project or what was the project 00:07:51.310 --> 00:07:53.290 back then? Yeah, when I was there, there was 00:07:53.290 --> 00:07:57.170 no Sapiens. We realized, we started working with 00:07:57.170 --> 00:08:00.509 Sapiens during that time. We created the term 00:08:00.509 --> 00:08:02.949 Sapiens in that time. In that moment, we called 00:08:02.949 --> 00:08:05.209 it Bullipedia, but we don't have the Sapiens, 00:08:05.209 --> 00:08:07.819 we don't know if... The books are going to be, 00:08:07.819 --> 00:08:10.319 I don't know how many books they have right now, 00:08:10.360 --> 00:08:12.459 20 books or something like that. A lot of books, 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:15.920 a lot of knowledge, a lot of different things 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:18.620 that they made in that time. They work with Telefonica 00:08:18.620 --> 00:08:22.560 for making different kind of user experience 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:25.720 to learn. It was very nice because you also, 00:08:25.980 --> 00:08:28.319 every week, there come a lot of people that maybe 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:32.360 you know, like Tony Segarra, the branding producer, 00:08:32.759 --> 00:08:36.350 or people that do. working at a very high level, 00:08:36.450 --> 00:08:39.950 collaborating with a team. So it was very nourishing 00:08:39.950 --> 00:08:42.669 for me, for myself. How would you describe Oriol 00:08:42.669 --> 00:08:47.009 Castro? That's something, because I've heard 00:08:47.009 --> 00:08:49.110 so many people that have worked with him and 00:08:49.110 --> 00:08:52.250 they put him on such a high level of person and 00:08:52.250 --> 00:08:57.009 also of creative force. Do you have any anecdote 00:08:57.009 --> 00:09:00.330 that you can share or anything about him that 00:09:00.330 --> 00:09:03.120 you could say? Maybe not an adult, but I think 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:07.100 Oriol is one of the kindest person I ever know 00:09:07.100 --> 00:09:09.639 in the industry. It was very nice with all the 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:12.460 people. It was very, they know the names of everyone. 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:16.700 They, it's very humble. In that moment, you don't, 00:09:16.700 --> 00:09:20.000 you know, start to open more or less. The rest 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:22.960 are in cadaqués, but Disfrutar was a thing that 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:26.179 maybe was in their minds, but it's not right 00:09:26.179 --> 00:09:29.750 now that are the... the top of the gastronomy 00:09:29.750 --> 00:09:32.909 at that moment, they were creating all these 00:09:32.909 --> 00:09:36.750 things that they have now. But for me, it's amazing 00:09:36.750 --> 00:09:41.629 because nowadays when we see each other, it's 00:09:41.629 --> 00:09:45.789 very, very warm. It's people that are very, very 00:09:45.789 --> 00:09:49.250 kind. Him and Eduardo and Mateo, they are this 00:09:49.250 --> 00:09:53.279 kind of people. And they deserve everything that 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:55.899 they have right now. Yeah, just yesterday we 00:09:55.899 --> 00:09:58.500 were talking about going to Day 2, Disfrutar 00:09:58.500 --> 00:10:03.120 or Enigma is the nearest that you can be to go 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:05.820 to El Bulli nowadays, right? The next generation 00:10:05.820 --> 00:10:10.940 after El Bulli. And then you got back to the 00:10:10.940 --> 00:10:13.820 Vasco de Nari Center. Was this like a... An academic 00:10:13.820 --> 00:10:16.940 internship? It was an academic internship. And 00:10:16.940 --> 00:10:20.720 then I worked with them in the summer and then 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:24.259 started working with Mugaritz and with them in 00:10:24.259 --> 00:10:27.159 a common project that was in that kind of the 00:10:27.159 --> 00:10:31.440 first, let's say, project that involves Wikipedia 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:33.960 or the Cuyo Foundation, Mugaritz and Pascualini 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:37.519 Center to put this kind of way of thinking in 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:41.629 the academy scholarship. So I was very young. 00:10:41.830 --> 00:10:46.250 I have a very pressure of a lot of people because 00:10:46.250 --> 00:10:50.049 then in two, three months, I realized that I 00:10:50.049 --> 00:10:52.429 have to make six hours of class in vascular center 00:10:52.429 --> 00:10:56.669 in the first year. In that time, I think I have 00:10:56.669 --> 00:11:00.769 34, 35 years. For me, it was like, okay, I don't 00:11:00.769 --> 00:11:02.830 know if I'm ready to do that, but I'm going to 00:11:02.830 --> 00:11:05.750 do it. I was very stressed because the ball was 00:11:05.750 --> 00:11:09.350 in the middle. And sometimes nobody wants to 00:11:09.350 --> 00:11:12.049 take decisions of the things. And you have to 00:11:12.049 --> 00:11:14.070 take a decision for them. For sure, you have 00:11:14.070 --> 00:11:15.850 to take a decision for three big corporations. 00:11:16.049 --> 00:11:21.309 And you are a small monkey in that moment. It 00:11:21.309 --> 00:11:24.450 was like a completely crazy moment of my life. 00:11:24.590 --> 00:11:27.289 And then, with this project, I started to work 00:11:27.289 --> 00:11:29.610 with Mugaris. Did you do the whole stagiaire 00:11:29.610 --> 00:11:32.789 process? Did you work direct to the line or direct 00:11:32.789 --> 00:11:36.529 to the creative lab? How was that? Entering Mugaritz. 00:11:36.769 --> 00:11:40.870 I entered, recommended by Ferran, in the R &B 00:11:40.870 --> 00:11:45.789 team. I only stayed two, three months as an internship 00:11:45.789 --> 00:11:49.250 in Mugaritz and then I had my first contract. 00:11:49.509 --> 00:11:51.950 For me, it was, of course, it was complicated 00:11:51.950 --> 00:11:55.909 because in the process of Mugaritz, you cannot 00:11:55.909 --> 00:11:59.009 do normally this. You have to be an internship, 00:11:59.210 --> 00:12:00.830 then you have to be a line cook, then you have 00:12:00.830 --> 00:12:03.730 to be a chef de partie, then you have to be a 00:12:03.730 --> 00:12:06.000 chef, and then you have... Maybe you have to 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:09.840 go to R &D. Yeah, I know. I was just thinking, 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:12.580 for example, I was thinking of Diego Prado, for 00:12:12.580 --> 00:12:15.700 example. He has all the conditions to be in the 00:12:15.700 --> 00:12:19.419 R &D team of Mugaritz. And he has been maybe 00:12:19.419 --> 00:12:21.899 one of the persons that has been the most in 00:12:21.899 --> 00:12:23.720 Mugaritz in one year. I think there was a year 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:27.100 where he went like 11 times in one year. But 00:12:27.100 --> 00:12:30.159 he told me, yeah, you don't get hired in Mugaritz. 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:34.230 That just doesn't happen. Not like that. Yeah. 00:12:34.309 --> 00:12:37.009 That was like a big exception, right? Yes, a 00:12:37.009 --> 00:12:40.070 big exception and also a big pressure to make 00:12:40.070 --> 00:12:42.350 things right. I know in that moment that I'm 00:12:42.350 --> 00:12:45.809 very lucky. It's for me a dream. I remember when 00:12:45.809 --> 00:12:51.370 I have my first books of Mugaritz in 2004. And 00:12:51.370 --> 00:12:55.230 then 10 years later, I start to work on Mugaritz. 00:12:55.490 --> 00:12:59.480 This is my favorite one. This is my favorite 00:12:59.480 --> 00:13:02.379 one. And I have it all signed with the team back 00:13:02.379 --> 00:13:08.019 then. And then I finally made some of the books 00:13:08.019 --> 00:13:11.679 of Mugares, so nice for me. It's like when you 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:15.059 are a fan of something, a fan of a rock band, 00:13:15.159 --> 00:13:18.360 and then you are in a concert and the singer 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:20.620 says to you, OK, you are going to play the bass 00:13:20.620 --> 00:13:24.360 with us today. And you say, what? And then you 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:26.200 come and then you go with the tour with them. 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:32.139 Twelve years later, you see, okay, I'm the guy 00:13:32.139 --> 00:13:35.139 in the rock band who can say to one in the audience, 00:13:35.299 --> 00:13:40.659 come with us. And it's nice, the process. Yeah, 00:13:40.700 --> 00:13:43.139 that's really crazy. I have to say I'm a bit 00:13:43.139 --> 00:13:45.220 jealous because I was a stagiaire in Mugaritz 00:13:45.220 --> 00:13:48.799 and I dreamt about being in the creative position. 00:13:49.019 --> 00:13:52.419 I was just for a short stash back then in 2005, 00:13:52.899 --> 00:13:56.340 like really early. Yeah, and how has been the 00:13:56.340 --> 00:14:00.379 experience of working in Mugaritz with people 00:14:00.379 --> 00:14:04.240 like Ramon, like Dani Lassa, like Javi, traveling 00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:06.779 around the world? What can you share about that? 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:09.539 Well, it was very nourishing. You say you work 00:14:09.539 --> 00:14:14.399 with a lot of people, but sometimes for me right 00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:18.379 now, that maybe my last steps in Mugaritz, for 00:14:18.379 --> 00:14:20.919 me, the most important thing is not also the 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:23.600 people who are there at the team that are very 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:25.799 important for sure. And I get to know people 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:28.940 very important like Leire or Daddy. But for me, 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:31.159 the most important part are all the people who 00:14:31.159 --> 00:14:34.600 come every year, like as a stagiaire, as an internship, 00:14:34.860 --> 00:14:37.879 as one year only, because they are the people 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:40.279 who move actually the machine. Yeah, they also 00:14:40.279 --> 00:14:43.799 bring the fresh blood, right? Like the energy. 00:14:44.179 --> 00:14:46.259 Yes, and for me, it's the most important thing 00:14:46.259 --> 00:14:51.259 because people in the history of Mugaris, maybe 00:14:51.259 --> 00:14:56.840 you can count 10. In that 27 years. But people 00:14:56.840 --> 00:14:59.220 who make us an internship in Mugaritz, there's 00:14:59.220 --> 00:15:03.960 thousands. And the people who put later the business 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:09.059 or restaurants or other things with the trademark 00:15:09.059 --> 00:15:11.100 of Mugaritz, with this kind, there are people 00:15:11.100 --> 00:15:15.240 who only one year. So it's amazing force of Mugaritz, 00:15:15.340 --> 00:15:17.200 but it's not about the person. It's about the 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:19.539 environment. And I really believe that the environment 00:15:19.539 --> 00:15:23.149 is the thing that makes it work. I completely 00:15:23.149 --> 00:15:27.149 agree. For me, there is magic in that. I remember 00:15:27.149 --> 00:15:29.149 when I first came back to the Basque Country 00:15:29.149 --> 00:15:33.669 10 years later after being in Mugaritz, just 00:15:33.669 --> 00:15:37.049 the smell of the forest triggered something in 00:15:37.049 --> 00:15:40.309 my head, like brought me back, you know, to being 00:15:40.309 --> 00:15:42.389 there in the morning, walking into the restaurant. 00:15:42.470 --> 00:15:45.090 It was like a very, very magical experience. 00:15:45.289 --> 00:15:47.090 It was the first place that I went after leaving 00:15:47.090 --> 00:15:50.169 home, living with my parents. I was 19 years 00:15:50.169 --> 00:15:52.980 old. I went directly to... to Mugaritz, you know, 00:15:53.019 --> 00:15:55.519 like Marcel picked me up in the train station. 00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:59.159 That was a, yeah, like a crazy time. Also something 00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:01.120 very interesting, and this is something we have 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:04.220 talked a lot about in the show, the approach 00:16:04.220 --> 00:16:06.700 of Mugaritz, that is, I think it has something 00:16:06.700 --> 00:16:10.240 that not other restaurant in the world has, that 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:13.360 is this thing that flavor is not the most important 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:16.600 thing. For us, something important is... that 00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:19.460 is interesting, that is challenging, that is 00:16:19.460 --> 00:16:23.259 stimulating to your senses or to your intellect, 00:16:23.419 --> 00:16:26.700 same as a work of art could be. There is this 00:16:26.700 --> 00:16:29.039 super interesting documentary that you appear 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:32.279 in, what's the name, Without Bread or Dessert, 00:16:32.419 --> 00:16:37.440 that was published last year, where you go through 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:41.019 the whole creative process of a year. What can 00:16:41.019 --> 00:16:43.279 you say about that, about that approach that 00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:46.679 is so unique? I think that it's necessary, this 00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:49.519 kind of approach. I think that nowadays, I think 00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:51.820 there are more restaurants that they do the same. 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:55.500 We are not unique. But in the moment that Mubariz 00:16:55.500 --> 00:16:59.019 tried to make this kind of approach to the gastronomy, 00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:01.399 for sure it was completely unique. The other 00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:05.279 big restaurant in that moment was Ibuli or Noma, 00:17:05.500 --> 00:17:08.339 and they do more comfort food. Even they use 00:17:08.339 --> 00:17:10.779 a lot of techniques and a lot of new approaches. 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:14.240 It was more comfort food. Mugares has this kind 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:17.640 of sense of trying to challenge people, as you 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:21.000 said, but it was very good during a lot of time. 00:17:21.140 --> 00:17:23.680 But nowadays, I think Mugares is also trying 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:26.559 to peace because they have, because it's a business 00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:29.980 as well. It's a 27 years business that you cannot 00:17:29.980 --> 00:17:33.740 think Mugares without that. We have to get money. 00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:37.599 And I think also Mugares changed a lot. During 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:40.339 these 27 years, because when you were in Mubarak, 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:45.460 you were in the kind of herbal, wild kind of 00:17:45.460 --> 00:17:48.559 inspiration. Ten years ago, they started all 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:52.920 this kind of wild, crazy ferment. And nowadays, 00:17:53.220 --> 00:17:56.359 I don't know exactly what is the point, because 00:17:56.359 --> 00:18:00.599 I think we have to see with five, six years in 00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:03.890 advance, let's say. to talk about the history 00:18:03.890 --> 00:18:06.190 of Mogadishu, but it changed a lot. And I think 00:18:06.190 --> 00:18:09.029 it's one of the values of Mogadishu, that they 00:18:09.029 --> 00:18:12.049 change. They can change. That's why there's no 00:18:12.049 --> 00:18:14.970 clothes, that it was still relevant, and the 00:18:14.970 --> 00:18:18.589 people talk about us like a big, big, important 00:18:18.589 --> 00:18:23.069 place. There is a new topic for every season, 00:18:23.210 --> 00:18:25.690 right? I remember in the documentary, the topic 00:18:25.690 --> 00:18:29.500 was... the things that you can't see, like everything 00:18:29.500 --> 00:18:34.200 that is invisible but is present. And what was 00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:37.380 it this year? Well, I don't remember. I usually 00:18:37.380 --> 00:18:39.380 don't think about these kind of topics. I think 00:18:39.380 --> 00:18:42.420 they're important because it's seasonal, but 00:18:42.420 --> 00:18:46.109 I always forget that during the season. Something 00:18:46.109 --> 00:18:48.190 important is the dynamic of the teams that you 00:18:48.190 --> 00:18:50.130 work with when you create the dishes. Like you 00:18:50.130 --> 00:18:52.990 have like this force, as you mentioned, of people 00:18:52.990 --> 00:18:54.769 that come from all over the world, these young 00:18:54.769 --> 00:18:57.890 chefs that want to spend a season there and nourish 00:18:57.890 --> 00:19:01.049 themselves technically and intellectually. So 00:19:01.049 --> 00:19:05.009 there are like team builds for specific dishes. 00:19:05.250 --> 00:19:09.650 There's like every dish has a team and how does 00:19:09.650 --> 00:19:12.950 it work? And a leader also and also like a mentor. 00:19:12.970 --> 00:19:15.549 Is it something like that more or less? In R 00:19:15.549 --> 00:19:17.910 &D, we are the leaders of this kind of processes. 00:19:18.490 --> 00:19:20.970 The recipes are the techniques, but the people 00:19:20.970 --> 00:19:23.670 who are going to be with us, that are the ones 00:19:23.670 --> 00:19:26.670 who stay during a year with us and then stay 00:19:26.670 --> 00:19:29.970 like this kind of four or five months more to 00:19:29.970 --> 00:19:33.470 make this kind of creative system, they are the 00:19:33.470 --> 00:19:36.650 people who actually develop the recipes. They 00:19:36.650 --> 00:19:39.410 are people who have to set recipes and change 00:19:39.410 --> 00:19:43.049 things and try to... to figure out what is kind 00:19:43.049 --> 00:19:46.609 of strange topics that we are with some sometimes 00:19:46.609 --> 00:19:50.289 we we put in let's say this is an hypothetical 00:19:50.289 --> 00:19:54.869 we are going to make a plate about luxury but 00:19:54.869 --> 00:19:58.410 we don't tell people what is luxury or what or 00:19:58.410 --> 00:20:00.930 which ingredients is going to be the plate so 00:20:00.930 --> 00:20:04.430 they have to figure out and that's why it's important 00:20:04.430 --> 00:20:08.609 they have to be that morales has to have young 00:20:08.609 --> 00:20:13.089 plus every year because you can manage ideas, 00:20:13.329 --> 00:20:18.250 but your ideas are limited in time. I have a 00:20:18.250 --> 00:20:20.630 theory for me, it's very important. We are very 00:20:20.630 --> 00:20:24.650 good as creative chefs when we are young because 00:20:24.650 --> 00:20:29.809 we have a pack of knowledge and of memories when 00:20:29.809 --> 00:20:34.450 we are children. We have like 20 years of knowledge 00:20:34.450 --> 00:20:37.470 in the setup of our minds, but when you start 00:20:37.470 --> 00:20:39.970 to work, you... You can use a lot of these kind 00:20:39.970 --> 00:20:42.150 of ideas. And if you don't nourish yourself a 00:20:42.150 --> 00:20:46.089 lot, reading, traveling, seeing other restaurants, 00:20:46.230 --> 00:20:50.630 you cannot go as fast as you need to survive 00:20:50.630 --> 00:20:53.509 as a creative chef. So it's very important that 00:20:53.509 --> 00:20:57.410 young chefs with all these fresh ideas come and 00:20:57.410 --> 00:21:02.950 to make a work that is shared and that is collaborative. 00:21:03.309 --> 00:21:05.809 Because it's the same thing that I said before. 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:09.200 It's not about the names, it's about the environment 00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:12.819 and how we can create a thing together. No, absolutely. 00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:15.380 I think that the magic about being in Mugaritz, 00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:18.440 I remember when I was there, all of the station 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:21.960 chefs, the chef de parties, now they're famous 00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:24.519 chefs on their own worldwide, you know, like, 00:21:24.619 --> 00:21:28.250 and many of the stagiaires. Also, so I think 00:21:28.250 --> 00:21:30.210 I was in a very, very special year. Probably 00:21:30.210 --> 00:21:32.210 every year is special, but that was my year, 00:21:32.329 --> 00:21:35.170 you know. I also wanted to ask something I want 00:21:35.170 --> 00:21:37.269 to know, like in a restaurant like Mugaritz, 00:21:37.329 --> 00:21:40.829 when do you know that a dish is ready for service? 00:21:41.509 --> 00:21:44.869 Like how many tryouts, which is the indicator? 00:21:44.950 --> 00:21:48.309 Because if delicious is not the indicator, how 00:21:48.309 --> 00:21:52.150 do you, is it intuitive? Is there like an approach? 00:21:52.609 --> 00:21:55.960 How do you do that? Well, the thing is that a 00:21:55.960 --> 00:21:58.619 dish is never ready. But in Mugares and in other 00:21:58.619 --> 00:22:02.599 places. But because when you create a dish, when 00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:04.940 you serve a dish, people that are going to eat 00:22:04.940 --> 00:22:07.559 that dish are going to change and are going to 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:11.259 finish the meaning of the dish. And sometimes 00:22:11.259 --> 00:22:14.259 this kind of feedback helps you to make things 00:22:14.259 --> 00:22:18.539 differently. And also, maybe you make a dish 00:22:18.539 --> 00:22:22.299 four, five, six times, but the people who are 00:22:22.299 --> 00:22:26.529 going to make it, Every day during a few months, 00:22:26.670 --> 00:22:29.650 I'm going to change a lot of things. So at this, 00:22:29.829 --> 00:22:32.609 when we start the season and when we finish the 00:22:32.609 --> 00:22:35.250 season, it's going to be different. And for sure, 00:22:35.269 --> 00:22:39.089 if we continue the season, it's going to be different 00:22:39.089 --> 00:22:41.890 as well. Actually, you don't finish at this. 00:22:42.009 --> 00:22:46.769 You abandon this. It's like, I think Picasso 00:22:46.769 --> 00:22:50.690 said that about the art, that the art is never 00:22:50.690 --> 00:22:55.140 finished. You have to leave it. people have to 00:22:55.140 --> 00:23:00.259 finish it for you. Yeah, I think Duchamp said 00:23:00.259 --> 00:23:05.000 that. Yeah, that the work is finished by the 00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:09.480 receptor, by the public. And I also, I don't 00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:12.779 know if it was Hemingway or some writer that 00:23:12.779 --> 00:23:15.920 said that a work is never finished, only published. 00:23:16.339 --> 00:23:19.480 So, like, you publish it, but that doesn't mean 00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:22.660 it's finished. Yeah, I guess... Both of those 00:23:22.660 --> 00:23:25.779 ideas come together with this one. But on the 00:23:25.779 --> 00:23:29.519 creative process, how many tests, like kitchen 00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:32.740 tests, do you make or like a random number? Is 00:23:32.740 --> 00:23:36.779 it 10, 20, 100? Like how many for this? Maybe 00:23:36.779 --> 00:23:39.460 you have an aha moment and you create a dish 00:23:39.460 --> 00:23:44.500 in a few tests because you have it very clear 00:23:44.500 --> 00:23:48.460 in your mind. And sometimes for making a new 00:23:48.460 --> 00:23:51.299 technique, maybe it's four years. to develop 00:23:51.299 --> 00:23:55.220 it. I remember when we started using Bendicium 00:23:55.220 --> 00:23:58.559 aviarensis, that is the fungus that grows in 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:02.640 some sausages like Fuet or Satichonca in Spain, 00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:07.400 that takes us like four years to grow it safely 00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:11.079 in the way we like it. And once, because it was 00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:13.779 a human mistake, they changed the proportions 00:24:13.779 --> 00:24:18.059 that we normally use it and grow so fast that 00:24:18.059 --> 00:24:21.250 you can start to use it. without any harm to 00:24:21.250 --> 00:24:24.730 the people. So it depends, it depends. But for 00:24:24.730 --> 00:24:28.250 saying that, if maybe if you work with this two 00:24:28.250 --> 00:24:33.769 months, you can work with 30, 40 tests every 00:24:33.769 --> 00:24:37.410 recipe. Super interesting. Thank you so much 00:24:37.410 --> 00:24:40.410 for sharing all of this with us. And it was a 00:24:40.410 --> 00:24:46.609 pleasure having you with us. That's it for this 00:24:46.609 --> 00:24:49.279 week's episode of Potluck Food Talks. If you 00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:51.200 like what we're doing, make sure to subscribe 00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:53.460 to the podcast so you never miss an episode. 00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:55.920 You can also find us on Instagram and TikTok 00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:59.420 as potluckfoodtalks. The show airs every Monday.