WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.320 You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Hi, 00:00:07.320 --> 00:00:13.119 everyone. Welcome to Potluck Food Talks. I'm 00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:16.760 Eric. I'm here with Bahamut. And we're going 00:00:16.760 --> 00:00:20.719 to talk about... Just throw some random questions. 00:00:21.500 --> 00:00:24.039 Yeah, it's just a little general catch -up. I 00:00:24.039 --> 00:00:27.260 feel like we haven't recorded in a while. True. 00:00:27.739 --> 00:00:30.199 True, true, true, true. Anything new to share 00:00:30.199 --> 00:00:34.000 from your side? Nothing crazy, nothing crazy. 00:00:34.140 --> 00:00:37.939 Just the same old madness. What about you? Well, 00:00:37.939 --> 00:00:40.939 yesterday I had a tour guest that told me something 00:00:40.939 --> 00:00:44.960 that I said, I should bring this out on my podcast. 00:00:45.340 --> 00:00:48.259 Do you agree that if you see somebody eating 00:00:48.259 --> 00:00:51.100 a pie, you know, a slice, like a cake, let's 00:00:51.100 --> 00:00:53.359 say a cheesecake, for example, and if that person 00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:56.280 starts eating, not from the tip, but from the 00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:59.560 back, It's probably a psychopath. Do you agree 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:03.340 with that? I 50 % agree with that because we 00:01:03.340 --> 00:01:06.219 can all agree that it's going to make all of 00:01:06.219 --> 00:01:08.500 us uncomfortable seeing that, right? Because, 00:01:08.540 --> 00:01:13.000 but why, you know? Because we have been, we're 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:16.680 programmed in a certain way, right? So at the 00:01:16.680 --> 00:01:20.700 same time, you know, I can respect somebody just 00:01:20.700 --> 00:01:24.480 not giving a shit about the general opinion. 00:01:25.239 --> 00:01:29.239 and just saying like, hey, I am going to break 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:31.579 free of my social chains. I'm going to break 00:01:31.579 --> 00:01:35.120 free of this fucking ant hive mind. I'm going 00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:36.939 to eat my slice of cake exactly how the fuck 00:01:36.939 --> 00:01:39.519 I want. And I can really respect that. And you 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:40.900 know what? Maybe I'm just going to start doing 00:01:40.900 --> 00:01:43.319 it. I do think you need to be a psychopath, you 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:45.099 know, especially in a cheesecake where you have 00:01:45.099 --> 00:01:48.819 like that runny middle thing out there asking 00:01:48.819 --> 00:01:52.379 you to please put your spoon in it. And you go 00:01:52.379 --> 00:01:54.640 to the back, you know, like to the backside. 00:01:54.900 --> 00:01:59.280 And it's, yeah, it's just counterintuitive. But, 00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:03.099 but isn't the tip, the like creamiest part, the 00:02:03.099 --> 00:02:07.439 like very best part of a cheesecake? So why wouldn't 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:10.280 you start from the back? And, you know, because 00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:12.000 starting with the tip is kind of like premature 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:14.460 ejaculation. You know, you're just kind of like 00:02:14.460 --> 00:02:17.319 you're starting with the best bit already. If 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:20.530 you start from the back. which sometimes with 00:02:20.530 --> 00:02:22.250 premature ejaculation you also do. Let's now 00:02:22.250 --> 00:02:25.409 go further with those analogies. You're leaving 00:02:25.409 --> 00:02:31.189 the best part for the very last bit. It makes 00:02:31.189 --> 00:02:34.169 sense if you think about it. So you prepared 00:02:34.169 --> 00:02:37.569 some questions. Let me go through them. So we 00:02:37.569 --> 00:02:40.930 wanted to throw some random questions and discuss 00:02:40.930 --> 00:02:44.289 them. Who's been a major influence that caused 00:02:44.289 --> 00:02:48.120 a turning point in your career? Do you have anything 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:52.020 in mind for that? That cast a turning point in 00:02:52.020 --> 00:02:56.259 my career? I mean, you wrote that question. I 00:02:56.259 --> 00:02:58.400 was expecting you to have like a super prepared 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:01.379 answer. Like, of course, I know. I know exactly 00:03:01.379 --> 00:03:07.659 what you mean. Let me think. I can think of quite 00:03:07.659 --> 00:03:11.500 a few, you know, and probably Mugatti as a place. 00:03:12.530 --> 00:03:15.710 made like a major turning point, not only in 00:03:15.710 --> 00:03:17.889 my career, but I would say in my life. You know, 00:03:17.909 --> 00:03:20.330 like I remember Anthony Bourdain once wrote that 00:03:20.330 --> 00:03:23.030 going to Mugaritz is a life transforming experience. 00:03:23.770 --> 00:03:27.009 And I really felt that way. It really changed 00:03:27.009 --> 00:03:31.569 my way of understanding many things and work. 00:03:31.710 --> 00:03:34.009 I've heard a lot of people saying that they didn't 00:03:34.009 --> 00:03:37.969 learn how to cook there, but how to work and 00:03:37.969 --> 00:03:42.879 approach work. Yes. I really see that. That was 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:46.560 one. Also, like, head chefs that I had, like, 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:49.460 in different places where I worked, and especially, 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:53.520 like, people that were really mentally quick, 00:03:53.659 --> 00:03:56.680 you know, that could solve problems quickly in 00:03:56.680 --> 00:04:02.360 situations where most people would panic. They 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:04.680 would come out with a quick solution right away, 00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:11.580 like, ah, 2 plus 2 is 4. Like, it's very obvious. 00:04:12.020 --> 00:04:15.039 And everybody around is like, how the fuck did 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:17.600 you do that? Or how the fuck did you came up 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:20.910 with that? Probably my first sous chef in Caracas, 00:04:21.110 --> 00:04:25.170 a guy called Ruben Martinez. Yeah, because we 00:04:25.170 --> 00:04:28.069 work in a kitchen with very few resources and 00:04:28.069 --> 00:04:30.870 he would just cowboy everything, you know, like 00:04:30.870 --> 00:04:34.310 no strainer while taking a tray with holes and 00:04:34.310 --> 00:04:37.389 using it as a strainer. No coffee ice cream while 00:04:37.389 --> 00:04:39.850 taking a vanilla ice cream and throwing an espresso 00:04:39.850 --> 00:04:42.449 and mixing it a la minute. You know, like this 00:04:42.449 --> 00:04:45.579 kind of things, like just like that. Like he 00:04:45.579 --> 00:04:48.079 had done it a hundred times before, but of course 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:51.399 he hadn't. He was just reacting and knowing that 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:54.620 you just want to get out of this situation as 00:04:54.620 --> 00:04:58.360 fast as you can and see around the resources 00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:01.540 that you have available and use them. What do 00:05:01.540 --> 00:05:03.519 you have? What can you use? Okay, coffee, ice 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:06.860 cream, punk. No strainer? Okay, a tray with holes? 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:11.680 Strain, you know, like that. No oil? Just putting 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:15.550 a fish inside a... a vegetable preserved with 00:05:15.550 --> 00:05:18.370 oil and throwing it to the pan. Because there 00:05:18.370 --> 00:05:21.149 was no oil a day in Caracas already 20 years 00:05:21.149 --> 00:05:23.470 ago. Suddenly, there was no oil in the whole 00:05:23.470 --> 00:05:27.269 city. You know, like, crazy stuff. At least in 00:05:27.269 --> 00:05:29.629 Latin America, man. Yeah, totally. That sort 00:05:29.629 --> 00:05:32.209 of skill set of, like, improvising off the cuff 00:05:32.209 --> 00:05:35.149 is really, really valuable. I mean, we've, like, 00:05:35.170 --> 00:05:37.750 we've, you and me, we've shared a couple of situations 00:05:37.750 --> 00:05:39.209 where we've done that. We've talked about this 00:05:39.209 --> 00:05:42.110 already also. But it's also something that I 00:05:42.110 --> 00:05:45.410 don't see in a lot of chefs anymore. Like you 00:05:45.410 --> 00:05:47.730 see it very, very rarely. This kind of like really 00:05:47.730 --> 00:05:51.550 adapts sort of like problem solving kind of thing. 00:05:51.550 --> 00:05:53.730 It's sort of like, oh, this is happening. I'm 00:05:53.730 --> 00:05:55.990 going to jump in. I'm going to do this. Like 00:05:55.990 --> 00:05:58.129 when I was in Mugares, for example, like it was 00:05:58.129 --> 00:06:00.529 the same thing. I had just come out of Margaux 00:06:00.529 --> 00:06:02.910 where we were working together. And there were 00:06:02.910 --> 00:06:05.149 also a couple of situations like that. And everybody 00:06:05.149 --> 00:06:06.850 would just kind of be sort of like, oh, this 00:06:06.850 --> 00:06:08.649 is happening. And, you know, you kind of sort 00:06:08.649 --> 00:06:10.629 of like, and it's just like. blah blah blah blah 00:06:10.629 --> 00:06:12.389 blah blah oh why didn't you do this why didn't 00:06:12.389 --> 00:06:15.250 you do that and you kind of just like shut the 00:06:15.250 --> 00:06:18.149 fuck up and just fucking like do you know and 00:06:18.149 --> 00:06:21.910 you just like stop crying you just stop talking 00:06:21.910 --> 00:06:23.430 you just jump into action you're like okay what 00:06:23.430 --> 00:06:27.790 can i do and often you find a solution i remember 00:06:27.790 --> 00:06:30.889 what well you're now working with michelle hopfield 00:06:30.889 --> 00:06:32.930 i would say that's also like a guy that that 00:06:32.930 --> 00:06:36.670 really well i would say i already saw like stuff 00:06:36.670 --> 00:06:40.389 he would do before But I would say he would do 00:06:40.389 --> 00:06:42.629 those kind of things, like problem solving a 00:06:42.629 --> 00:06:46.370 la minute, like in a very high -level way, you 00:06:46.370 --> 00:06:48.769 know? And I remember one of these situations, 00:06:49.009 --> 00:06:50.629 I don't remember, I think it was a machine that 00:06:50.629 --> 00:06:53.529 was not working, and that machine was key for 00:06:53.529 --> 00:06:55.250 whatever we were doing. I think it was like a 00:06:55.250 --> 00:06:59.350 little mixer, and it wouldn't turn on. I don't 00:06:59.350 --> 00:07:00.970 remember what machine it was, to be honest. But 00:07:00.970 --> 00:07:02.550 I remember I was trying things, like putting 00:07:02.550 --> 00:07:05.649 the bottom, and I would go to him, and I'm like, 00:07:05.649 --> 00:07:08.610 it's not working, what should I do? And he said 00:07:08.610 --> 00:07:11.149 like 10 times to me, one after the other, that 00:07:11.149 --> 00:07:14.189 I would say the same thing. He would say, continue 00:07:14.189 --> 00:07:20.689 trying. Try more. Just try more. And at the end, 00:07:20.689 --> 00:07:28.269 I did it. Yeah, Michael was also for sure one 00:07:28.269 --> 00:07:30.230 of, I didn't want to start with him, but for 00:07:30.230 --> 00:07:32.769 sure one of the big turning points in my career 00:07:32.769 --> 00:07:34.610 also. I mean, when we worked at Margot together, 00:07:34.709 --> 00:07:38.199 I have lots of very good memories of him. Like 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:42.000 he was very, like very out there, you know, he 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:45.000 was very full on, gave me a lot of shit. But 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:47.120 especially like afterwards when I, when I worked 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:50.500 with him here in Dubai. Yeah. I mean, just such 00:07:50.500 --> 00:07:52.800 a, like, not just from a cooking perspective, 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:56.500 which is like really down my alley because it's 00:07:56.500 --> 00:07:59.500 all about flavor. It's all about flavor. Nothing 00:07:59.500 --> 00:08:01.540 else matters, you know, flavor, flavor, flavor, 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:05.470 flavor. And also how things make you feel. Like, 00:08:05.470 --> 00:08:07.170 how do you feel after eating something? It's 00:08:07.170 --> 00:08:09.350 not just about like fucking butter and this and 00:08:09.350 --> 00:08:11.189 that and blah, but like, you feel good after 00:08:11.189 --> 00:08:13.389 eating something? Like, good. If you go for an 00:08:13.389 --> 00:08:16.290 omakase tasting menu, you eat 12 courses, you 00:08:16.290 --> 00:08:18.350 walk out and you feel like shit, you didn't do 00:08:18.350 --> 00:08:20.129 a good job. I think that's also something that 00:08:20.129 --> 00:08:22.509 not a lot of people think about. But that aside, 00:08:22.769 --> 00:08:26.209 the managing aspect and like, he's a businessman, 00:08:26.370 --> 00:08:28.389 you know? He's a full -on businessman. Like, 00:08:28.389 --> 00:08:30.649 I have not met a lot of chefs who have such a 00:08:30.649 --> 00:08:33.929 good understanding of business and of like managing 00:08:33.929 --> 00:08:36.600 people. And really kind of just like making it 00:08:36.600 --> 00:08:38.720 work. The jobs that I did afterwards, you know, 00:08:38.779 --> 00:08:41.159 like I had been a head chef before, but then 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:43.299 when I was a head chef there. That's interesting 00:08:43.299 --> 00:08:45.899 because my impression I have about him is as 00:08:45.899 --> 00:08:48.620 a craftsman, not as a businessman, because probably 00:08:48.620 --> 00:08:50.440 he wasn't a businessman when we were working 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:53.419 with him back then. And later he became one. 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:56.259 But like, this is the thing, right? So like, 00:08:56.259 --> 00:08:58.899 he's a super, super good craftsman, amazing chef, 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:01.940 right? One of the best chefs I've ever worked 00:09:01.940 --> 00:09:04.990 with. And then he had a Michelin star in Berlin. 00:09:05.070 --> 00:09:08.309 And then he made this career choice, right? After 00:09:08.309 --> 00:09:10.070 a couple of years of being in Berlin, having 00:09:10.070 --> 00:09:12.450 a Michelin star, he decided to make a complete 00:09:12.450 --> 00:09:16.730 direction change and go into the Zuma group and 00:09:16.730 --> 00:09:19.230 then worked many years in the Zuma group. And 00:09:19.230 --> 00:09:22.250 there, but he made this decision, right? He was 00:09:22.250 --> 00:09:24.610 sort of like, okay, I could continue being in 00:09:24.610 --> 00:09:26.789 Germany and in Berlin, but he knew that he could 00:09:26.789 --> 00:09:29.620 only go so and so far. Because he worked in some 00:09:29.620 --> 00:09:31.440 of the best restaurants in the world. I think 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:35.279 he was in Can Roca, he was with Sergio Herrmann, 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:39.379 he was in... What's the name of this place? Cristian 00:09:39.379 --> 00:09:41.840 Bauer. Cristian Bauer, and also a two -star place 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:44.659 in Portugal. I don't remember the name. Yeah. 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:48.799 Dimitri something, the chef? I'm not sure. maybe 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:51.500 maybe yeah but like in amazing places like super 00:09:51.500 --> 00:09:53.820 the highest level of cooking for me that's crazy 00:09:53.820 --> 00:09:56.179 because when i asked him which was the best restaurant 00:09:56.179 --> 00:09:58.580 he ever worked with and he he was already in 00:09:58.580 --> 00:10:00.639 all of these places he said that place in portugal 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:04.220 yeah yes yeah but it sounds if you hear stories 00:10:04.220 --> 00:10:06.700 from that place it sounds fucking nuts it sounds 00:10:06.700 --> 00:10:11.440 absolutely crazy why well like since you opened 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:15.250 that door let it out I can't replicate all the 00:10:15.250 --> 00:10:16.990 stories. Like he's told me many of them, but 00:10:16.990 --> 00:10:19.129 like, it just sounds like also the head chef 00:10:19.129 --> 00:10:20.750 was just like absolutely nuts. I think they were 00:10:20.750 --> 00:10:24.049 working themselves to absolute bits. Just pretty 00:10:24.049 --> 00:10:26.009 crazy. Just working and partying and working 00:10:26.009 --> 00:10:28.049 and partying and working and partying. Okay. 00:10:28.230 --> 00:10:31.409 Okay. That kind of crazy stuff. Yeah. But also 00:10:31.409 --> 00:10:33.690 like the head chef just seems like absolutely 00:10:33.690 --> 00:10:36.970 nuts. Villa Gioia. That's what it's called. Villa 00:10:36.970 --> 00:10:39.850 Gioia. Okay. Yeah. But honestly, you know, working 00:10:39.850 --> 00:10:42.740 for Michael Hoffman at Margot. The big turning 00:10:42.740 --> 00:10:45.519 point, because you know why? Like the place that 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:47.399 had its problems and stuff, you know, and looking 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:48.899 back at the food, you know, you can think whatever. 00:10:50.580 --> 00:10:53.259 Dieter Goschina is a chef for people who are 00:10:53.259 --> 00:10:56.399 curious. Sorry, continue. You know, like afterwards, 00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:58.240 when you go out into the culinary world and you 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:00.399 hear about people like Alain Passat or Michel 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:04.840 Bras, having worked at Mago, you already had 00:11:04.840 --> 00:11:06.500 an understanding of what they were trying to 00:11:06.500 --> 00:11:08.500 do. I think if you were from a different restaurant. 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:12.460 And you hear about this like herb approach and 00:11:12.460 --> 00:11:15.740 local like old vegetable varieties and this and 00:11:15.740 --> 00:11:17.460 that and blah. You're kind of sort of like, okay, 00:11:17.500 --> 00:11:19.360 yeah, that's cool. But like, whatever, you know, 00:11:19.379 --> 00:11:21.379 it's vegetables. And having worked at Margot, 00:11:21.460 --> 00:11:22.779 there were so many things at Margot that were 00:11:22.779 --> 00:11:25.200 really special. Really, really special. So many 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:27.679 dishes that I still think about also. So many 00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:30.179 like combinations of flavors and like a certain 00:11:30.179 --> 00:11:33.200 sensibility. And at the end, a lot of things 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:35.320 contributed to that getting kind of like distorted. 00:11:36.269 --> 00:11:38.789 I have my own opinion on this. I think he was 00:11:38.789 --> 00:11:41.269 just trying to be too Frenchy, allure du cas, 00:11:41.389 --> 00:11:44.789 fine dining -y. But the idea behind a lot of 00:11:44.789 --> 00:11:48.909 things was very, very good. Yeah, I agree. I 00:11:48.909 --> 00:11:52.190 agree. Yeah, but also obviously Mugaritz as a 00:11:52.190 --> 00:11:55.750 place. You were in Mugaritz during a time where 00:11:55.750 --> 00:11:58.190 I think the food was amazing. When I was there, 00:11:58.350 --> 00:12:00.250 some things were amazing, some things were not. 00:12:00.490 --> 00:12:04.610 But as a place, it completely changed my career. 00:12:05.129 --> 00:12:10.070 100%. It just opened everything. I was at a good 00:12:10.070 --> 00:12:12.490 starting point as a chef. I had good experience 00:12:12.490 --> 00:12:15.710 and stuff for my age. And then I went there and 00:12:15.710 --> 00:12:18.330 just through being there, just through having 00:12:18.330 --> 00:12:20.269 that connection, it just opened up everything. 00:12:21.230 --> 00:12:24.009 Okay, another question. Can you think of a time 00:12:24.009 --> 00:12:28.730 where you really, genuinely impressed someone 00:12:28.730 --> 00:12:32.490 with your food? Yeah, for sure, man. For sure. 00:12:32.690 --> 00:12:37.779 I mean... I see it all the time. Not to sound 00:12:37.779 --> 00:12:39.879 cocky, you know, but like, I mean, you get to 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:42.679 a point where you can make things very, very 00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:46.200 tasty, right? But I think we're talking beyond 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:50.460 tasty, no? I remember when I was, this is like 00:12:50.460 --> 00:12:52.600 two years ago when I was a head chef at Otto 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:58.000 in Berlin. I made a hay ice cream, ice cream 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:00.299 out of roasted hay. For people who don't know, 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:03.019 if you get the right kind of hay and you roast 00:13:03.019 --> 00:13:05.860 it, which is right, and you infuse it in milk. 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:09.659 It has a flavor of almost like speculoos spices. 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:13.120 It's kind of like grassy, but nutty, like a little 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:16.980 bit like cinnamon sort of like flavor. It's really, 00:13:17.019 --> 00:13:19.500 really delicious. You roast it, you infuse it 00:13:19.500 --> 00:13:21.259 in milk, you use the milk to make an ice cream. 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:24.080 I don't even remember what I served with it. 00:13:24.179 --> 00:13:26.879 I think it was like a take on like a carrot cake 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:28.720 with like German root vegetables, like a very 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:31.690 juicy kind of like cake. served it to somebody 00:13:31.690 --> 00:13:35.929 and they started to cry because this flavor of 00:13:35.929 --> 00:13:37.909 the hay reminded them of their childhood when 00:13:37.909 --> 00:13:42.870 they grew up on a farm. And yeah, that was really 00:13:42.870 --> 00:13:48.909 crazy. I also made someone cry on a good way 00:13:48.909 --> 00:13:51.710 with my food. Never on a bad way, fortunately. 00:13:54.669 --> 00:13:57.129 But yeah, I was thinking about the same way when 00:13:57.129 --> 00:14:00.409 I read this question and it was... So I had the, 00:14:00.450 --> 00:14:04.049 you know, when I cook at home or, like, for a 00:14:04.049 --> 00:14:06.409 dinner party or whatever, probably you do the 00:14:06.409 --> 00:14:11.830 same. Like, I have just, like, a 30 % is a plan, 00:14:12.049 --> 00:14:14.409 and the rest I'm just flowing, you know? I'm 00:14:14.409 --> 00:14:17.370 just... if I go to the market, I will grab stuff 00:14:17.370 --> 00:14:19.750 that was not in my plan at the beginning. And 00:14:19.750 --> 00:14:23.049 while I'm cooking, I will add stuff like process 00:14:23.049 --> 00:14:26.210 wise that I wasn't thinking about doing earlier. 00:14:26.529 --> 00:14:29.049 So, and I started like, you know, like improvising 00:14:29.049 --> 00:14:31.350 and building, and then it comes out something 00:14:31.350 --> 00:14:35.340 that, you know, was built on the go. Yeah. So 00:14:35.340 --> 00:14:37.399 this was a dinner party. Usually when there is 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:39.580 a dinner party where a lot of people are cooking, 00:14:39.740 --> 00:14:42.580 I always take the sweets, the desserts, or the 00:14:42.580 --> 00:14:44.399 salads because I think those are the things nobody 00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:46.720 wants to take effort in doing something special, 00:14:46.940 --> 00:14:49.580 right? Like everybody wants to do the meat or 00:14:49.580 --> 00:14:52.279 the whatever, you know? So it was this dinner 00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:55.779 party. I had some very good vanilla banana ice 00:14:55.779 --> 00:14:59.320 cream that I got from a restaurant. And it was 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:01.440 like a very simple dessert. So I just did like 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:04.360 a simple chocolate cake with that ice cream. 00:15:05.070 --> 00:15:07.610 But then at that house, we had, like, a super 00:15:07.610 --> 00:15:12.429 good, like, aged balsamic vinegar. And I remember, 00:15:12.509 --> 00:15:15.870 like, this idea of doing strawberries with balsamic. 00:15:16.090 --> 00:15:18.269 So it's kind of like a traditional thing in Italy. 00:15:18.549 --> 00:15:24.710 So I did, like, this strawberry salad to go with 00:15:24.710 --> 00:15:26.629 that, with the ice cream and the chocolate cake. 00:15:26.929 --> 00:15:30.009 And it had session pepper. It had this balsamic 00:15:30.009 --> 00:15:32.789 vinegar. It had the strawberries and the whole 00:15:32.789 --> 00:15:35.779 thing. And, yeah. There were some friends and 00:15:35.779 --> 00:15:39.500 there was a couple and she, as soon as she tried, 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:42.539 she started like crying. And I never had that 00:15:42.539 --> 00:15:45.519 before. And it was like really, really something 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:49.720 special. Yeah, it's really cool. It's crazy how 00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:52.899 food can like have these reactions on you. There's 00:15:52.899 --> 00:15:56.000 this movie, like some people like it, some people 00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:59.639 hate it. It's the movie with Bradley Cooper where 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:01.720 he's a chef in London. I think it's called Burnt. 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:04.580 and it's like it's very over the top you know 00:16:04.580 --> 00:16:07.620 it's like about you know he's very angry he's 00:16:07.620 --> 00:16:09.379 trying to get like michelle stars it's like you 00:16:09.379 --> 00:16:11.679 know it's it's a little bit silly but there's 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:13.759 um there's a couple of scenes that are nice in 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:15.720 there and he's talking about how he wants people 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:18.980 to feel when they eat his food and he says that 00:16:18.980 --> 00:16:22.600 oh when i when i when people like an article 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:24.120 comes out and they're sort of like oh it's like 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:25.740 really excellent and he's like it's not enough 00:16:25.740 --> 00:16:28.580 i want people to be sick with longing you know 00:16:28.580 --> 00:16:32.330 this like When we talk about like old school, 00:16:32.409 --> 00:16:35.690 like gourmet food, you know, where flavor is 00:16:35.690 --> 00:16:39.750 key. You know, this like moment where, because 00:16:39.750 --> 00:16:42.509 things can be delicious. But have you ever had 00:16:42.509 --> 00:16:44.309 this experience where you have something in front 00:16:44.309 --> 00:16:47.429 of you and you look at it and then you take the 00:16:47.429 --> 00:16:50.549 first mouthful and you just stop for a second 00:16:50.549 --> 00:16:53.509 because it's so good? Absolutely, all the time. 00:16:53.870 --> 00:16:59.019 And you're like, and I feel like you. don't get 00:16:59.019 --> 00:17:01.639 that very often anymore especially in restaurants 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:03.100 especially in high -end restaurants it's all 00:17:03.100 --> 00:17:05.259 like the idea is cool and it looks good and blah 00:17:05.259 --> 00:17:07.740 but this and it can be delicious don't get me 00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:10.079 wrong it can be good but we're not talking like 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:12.180 we're talking about this level of cooking we're 00:17:12.180 --> 00:17:15.200 not talking about good and like very good we're 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:17.619 talking about good and like infinitely above 00:17:17.619 --> 00:17:19.859 that this moment of sort of like you take it 00:17:19.859 --> 00:17:21.640 in your mouth and you're like oh my god you melt 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:25.140 away and i feel like not a lot of people are 00:17:25.140 --> 00:17:27.690 really striving for that anymore Quite a lot 00:17:27.690 --> 00:17:29.930 in my tours, you know, because the thing about 00:17:29.930 --> 00:17:33.529 my tours is that I, the curation, I want to select 00:17:33.529 --> 00:17:36.269 stuff that I think it's outstanding, right? Like 00:17:36.269 --> 00:17:39.809 a lot of people, you know, come from, I don't 00:17:39.809 --> 00:17:41.890 know, cities where the food is not so good. And 00:17:41.890 --> 00:17:44.309 so they can really be impressed. And I've learned 00:17:44.309 --> 00:17:47.529 like to leave them because I'm talking a lot 00:17:47.529 --> 00:17:51.549 during my tours. I'm dropping info and info and 00:17:51.549 --> 00:17:53.849 telling them stuff all the time. But at the moment 00:17:53.849 --> 00:17:56.170 when they're eating specific dishes that I know, 00:17:56.829 --> 00:18:00.210 I shut the fuck up and I just leave them. And 00:18:00.210 --> 00:18:03.269 I see them, that they're really tripping on a 00:18:03.269 --> 00:18:05.869 specific bite, you know, and I leave them and 00:18:05.869 --> 00:18:07.769 I go away, you know, whatever, to pay the bill 00:18:07.769 --> 00:18:12.210 or whatever. Yeah. Talking about that, what's 00:18:12.210 --> 00:18:18.750 your take on music or silence, both in cooking 00:18:18.750 --> 00:18:25.630 and dining? Ah, look, I made a rhyme. Such a 00:18:25.630 --> 00:18:28.349 poet. I don't have a particularly strong opinion 00:18:28.349 --> 00:18:30.750 about it, honestly. I like listening to music 00:18:30.750 --> 00:18:32.710 while I'm cooking, just because I like to listen 00:18:32.710 --> 00:18:37.609 to music. I also like having music on in service. 00:18:37.990 --> 00:18:42.289 I don't mind there being music. It depends on 00:18:42.289 --> 00:18:44.269 what kind of music I wouldn't want. It really 00:18:44.269 --> 00:18:47.150 depends what mood I'm in, right? Just as I was 00:18:47.150 --> 00:18:49.349 listening normally to music. I know a fair few 00:18:49.349 --> 00:18:52.970 people who would never have that. Or I've also 00:18:52.970 --> 00:18:56.450 seen, like during prep, There's music, but as 00:18:56.450 --> 00:18:59.329 soon as the service starts, music goes off. I've 00:18:59.329 --> 00:19:03.319 also seen that. I can get behind it. It's also 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:06.599 common to see that there is music on until something 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:09.039 goes really wrong and the service gets really 00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:11.960 tense. And then the music just becomes like an 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:15.539 element of annoyance that needs to be turned 00:19:15.539 --> 00:19:18.700 off. I can understand that. I can definitely 00:19:18.700 --> 00:19:20.839 understand that. I've never really felt that. 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:23.740 I was kind of like, nah. If you get thrown off 00:19:23.740 --> 00:19:25.440 by a little bit of background music, then what 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:28.420 are you even doing? It's my opinion, right? It 00:19:28.420 --> 00:19:30.720 doesn't do any effect on me. I like listening 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:34.400 to music. It kind of keeps me in a flow and stuff 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:36.220 like that. But I can also work in silence. Totally 00:19:36.220 --> 00:19:39.559 fine. In the dining room, I also don't think 00:19:39.559 --> 00:19:43.740 like... Like music can be nice. It can be a little 00:19:43.740 --> 00:19:46.279 bit annoying. Silence can be nice. It can be... 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:48.440 Like it just depends on the context. But I don't 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:50.579 necessarily think that it's crucial for the experience. 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:54.839 Okay. I do have some thoughts on that. Like I 00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:59.240 think it needs to be cohesive. cohesive conceptually 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:03.259 you know like it has to go hand in hand you know 00:20:03.259 --> 00:20:06.259 like you can't be like i don't know like in a 00:20:06.259 --> 00:20:09.980 omakasa and having a full volume reggaeton you 00:20:09.980 --> 00:20:13.980 know but you can be like but you can be in a 00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:16.000 latin restaurant and have a full volume reggaeton 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:18.940 and it would work you know like i think that 00:20:18.940 --> 00:20:22.279 those things have to You know, like the rest 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:26.220 of the restaurant experience where the paintings 00:20:26.220 --> 00:20:30.579 or the dishware have to be conceptually cohesive. 00:20:30.900 --> 00:20:33.200 You know, like it can be like completely divorced 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:36.359 conceptually. I can think of experiences where 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:38.680 the music really played a role in the experience. 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:42.240 And it comes to my mind when I was in Mass in 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:44.599 Tokyo, this Peruvian restaurant. I've talked 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:47.640 a lot of it a few times. And I remember, so the 00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:52.740 music, I would describe it as kind of like psychedelic. 00:20:52.740 --> 00:20:54.960 You know, it was kind of like trippy that you 00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:57.160 felt you were getting into, I don't know, some 00:20:57.160 --> 00:21:01.500 kind of Amazonian vibe kind of thing, like some 00:21:01.500 --> 00:21:05.099 kind of ayahuasca trip kind of vibes. Yeah. And 00:21:05.099 --> 00:21:08.359 yet at the same time, this played like a direct, 00:21:08.500 --> 00:21:11.920 I think that the food that he does has also this 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:15.380 kind of like psychedelic. kind of thing, lots 00:21:15.380 --> 00:21:19.619 of colors, lots of textures, a lot of suggestions 00:21:19.619 --> 00:21:24.859 to jungles or ecosystems and this kind of stuff. 00:21:25.299 --> 00:21:28.940 And I think that made completely sense to me, 00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:31.920 you know? Yeah, like I said, or I remember in 00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:34.700 places where they would play that, like, very 00:21:34.700 --> 00:21:38.299 fast -paced music, and it was all like, dude, 00:21:38.380 --> 00:21:40.200 you're eating, and suddenly you start, like, 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:44.079 you know, like... Like getting an epileptic attack 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:49.640 suddenly. And I think this bossa nova vibe kind 00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:51.900 of thing, for a reason, should be banned. It 00:21:51.900 --> 00:21:55.339 should be illegal. That's my opinion on those 00:21:55.339 --> 00:21:58.019 ones, on those bossa nova playlists, chill out 00:21:58.019 --> 00:22:01.940 study. Like that elevator kind of music. Exactly 00:22:01.940 --> 00:22:09.819 that. I hate that shit. I really hate it. yeah 00:22:09.819 --> 00:22:12.119 see i don't mind i don't mind like it's for me 00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:14.960 it's kind of like whatever you know i i i often 00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:17.539 i feel like it can play into it a lot like you 00:22:17.539 --> 00:22:20.000 say like with the the thing at mass i totally 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:24.700 get that but i'm never really like unless it's 00:22:24.700 --> 00:22:26.720 like really bad the other day i was in here our 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:30.160 restaurant in in here in dubai and i was standing 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:31.920 at the pass and i was like looking up i was like 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:33.960 what kind of fucking music are we playing right 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:36.700 now it was such a bizarre weird sort of like 00:22:36.700 --> 00:22:38.900 house techno thing but like really kind of like 00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:42.180 Like creepy circus music. And I was like, is 00:22:42.180 --> 00:22:44.619 this the vibe that we want to give people? I'd 00:22:44.619 --> 00:22:46.099 walk into a restaurant and I'd hear that full 00:22:46.099 --> 00:22:47.920 set of music. I'd turn around and walk the fuck 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:51.640 out. This is something I've heard you... What 00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:54.400 was I going to ask? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I 00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:57.240 have it. This is something I've heard opinions 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:00.940 of you on this topic and maybe you could elaborate 00:23:00.940 --> 00:23:05.240 on that. How has your perception on the concept 00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:09.279 of fine dining changed along the years? Since 00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:13.279 you began cooking and today, what was it then? 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:17.220 What is it now? And what happened on the way? 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:21.240 When I started cooking, I knew I wanted to be 00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:26.039 in fine dining because I wanted to cook at the 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:28.920 highest level with a lot of expression. That's 00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:31.740 what I wanted. And it seemed like the most free 00:23:31.740 --> 00:23:34.740 form and the highest level of things. And in 00:23:34.740 --> 00:23:36.359 the beginning, you don't really know what anything 00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:39.700 fucking means, right? Like you look at a restaurant 00:23:39.700 --> 00:23:42.740 and you look at food and it's just like one thing. 00:23:42.980 --> 00:23:45.940 You can't look behind the curtain, right? And 00:23:45.940 --> 00:23:47.819 then you start cooking, you realize that there's 00:23:47.819 --> 00:23:50.039 lots of things that play a role into it. And 00:23:50.039 --> 00:23:51.599 then you go into different restaurants and you 00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:54.400 see that the differences between like different 00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:57.099 cooking styles. And I had a big turning point 00:23:57.099 --> 00:23:59.339 when, I don't want to throw shade on Mugaritz 00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:02.619 endlessly, you know, but I had a big turning 00:24:02.619 --> 00:24:06.220 point when I was at Mugaritz because Basque cooking 00:24:06.220 --> 00:24:09.180 is amazing, right? Like the food that you find 00:24:09.180 --> 00:24:12.079 in the Basque country is some of the most impactful 00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:14.700 that I've ever encountered. Just like in Japan, 00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:17.440 right? Where you find places that do certain 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:19.440 things that you eat and they really make you 00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:22.460 stop. And so I was doing all this like super 00:24:22.460 --> 00:24:28.569 very... um brainy theoretical food but even as 00:24:28.569 --> 00:24:30.730 a young chef i was kind of like certain dishes 00:24:30.730 --> 00:24:32.109 there were a couple of dishes where i was like 00:24:32.109 --> 00:24:34.369 what the fuck are we doing here you ask yourself 00:24:34.369 --> 00:24:36.930 that and then you and you work like a fucking 00:24:36.930 --> 00:24:40.109 animal right you work five and a half days a 00:24:40.109 --> 00:24:43.490 week all day long you're just running like an 00:24:43.490 --> 00:24:46.569 idiot and then you go out on your day off And 00:24:46.569 --> 00:24:49.930 you go to like some small grill house, right? 00:24:50.049 --> 00:24:52.289 Where there's like, there was a sidreria really 00:24:52.289 --> 00:24:56.950 near to the stagia house between Urnieta and 00:24:56.950 --> 00:25:03.009 Lazarte. And the guy behind the grill that owned 00:25:03.009 --> 00:25:07.450 it is called, you can guess it, Jose Mari. Ah, 00:25:07.450 --> 00:25:11.549 okay. I was expecting Mikkel. No, Jose Mari. 00:25:12.130 --> 00:25:14.430 And just like, he was just like grilling there. 00:25:14.490 --> 00:25:17.759 It was so like, it was so... Low key, like his 00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:19.380 family, there was like a big kitchen with the 00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:22.839 grills, you know, the like saw to saw the chuletas 00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:26.519 from the half cow, a big wooden table. His family 00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:28.200 would often sit there, peel potatoes, cutting 00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:33.180 like patatas fritas. And the food was amazing. 00:25:33.240 --> 00:25:37.559 You know, revuelto de bacalao, cocochas, the 00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:39.380 chuleta, one of the best chuletas I've ever had. 00:25:39.460 --> 00:25:42.539 It was so good. I used to go there with Kevin 00:25:42.539 --> 00:25:45.299 a lot. We had a Chuleta eating competition at 00:25:45.299 --> 00:25:50.160 one point, which I very, very crushingly lost. 00:25:52.519 --> 00:26:00.839 I wouldn't mess with a Chuleta competition with 00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:05.240 Kevin ever. I mean, he's way bigger than you, 00:26:05.299 --> 00:26:08.900 man. What were you thinking? No, and I think 00:26:08.900 --> 00:26:10.980 his determination is just of a different caliber 00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:14.059 also. It's a mental game. Chuleta eating is a 00:26:14.059 --> 00:26:16.240 mental game. At a certain point, it's a mental 00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:21.059 game. Anyway. And like the food was fucking amazing, 00:26:21.140 --> 00:26:23.140 you know, and it's this guy in his shirt, he's 00:26:23.140 --> 00:26:25.319 drinking cider, he's grilling, he's like coming 00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:27.720 out laughing, talking to people. And you're like, 00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:30.599 I've just spent like 70 hours working in a kitchen 00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:33.920 with 14 other chefs, you know. And like, I look 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:35.619 at the food that we do and like, of course, it's 00:26:35.619 --> 00:26:37.279 interesting. Of course, it's beautiful, but does 00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:41.680 it have the same impact? And I had that experience 00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:46.650 repeatedly of just. The sensation of when you 00:26:46.650 --> 00:26:49.049 sit down, you eat the food and the deliciousness 00:26:49.049 --> 00:26:51.369 of it. Because I am a chef, I like deliciousness 00:26:51.369 --> 00:26:54.049 in food. You know, fucking crazy, right? And 00:26:54.049 --> 00:26:55.930 that really, really changed me. And I realized 00:26:55.930 --> 00:26:57.690 that I don't want, and there were a couple of 00:26:57.690 --> 00:27:00.089 people that worked at Mugaritz that I really 00:27:00.089 --> 00:27:02.309 didn't respect when I was there. A couple of 00:27:02.309 --> 00:27:03.950 chef de parties and sous chefs and head chefs. 00:27:04.349 --> 00:27:06.650 And I saw them and I was like, you just don't 00:27:06.650 --> 00:27:08.690 know how to cook, do you? Like, what are you 00:27:08.690 --> 00:27:12.359 doing here? Like if the water bath breaks and 00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:13.859 there's a sous chef at the chef de party, they 00:27:13.859 --> 00:27:17.339 can't cook steaks. And I was like, I never, ever 00:27:17.339 --> 00:27:20.519 want to be that guy. Never, ever. If I become 00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:23.799 a chef de party, a sous chef, a head chef, I 00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:25.740 want people to look at something that I'm doing 00:27:25.740 --> 00:27:27.539 and be sort of like, oh, wow, that's really good. 00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:30.220 I want to be able to do that one day with everything, 00:27:30.380 --> 00:27:32.299 whether I'm cutting a brunoise, whether I'm roasting 00:27:32.299 --> 00:27:34.900 a pigeon, whether I'm filleting a fish, anything. 00:27:35.539 --> 00:27:37.839 I have to. That has to be the case. Otherwise, 00:27:37.859 --> 00:27:40.200 why the fuck would you work for me? And that 00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:42.339 was really like a big turning point. And then 00:27:42.339 --> 00:27:47.140 I particularly chose restaurants where I felt 00:27:47.140 --> 00:27:48.819 like they were really, really good at cooking, 00:27:48.900 --> 00:27:52.559 not the whole concept. You said many things that 00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:55.059 brought me some memories. Actually, we would 00:27:55.059 --> 00:27:57.799 also go to cider houses a lot while I was in 00:27:57.799 --> 00:27:59.920 Mugaritz. And I remember one of these cider houses 00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:03.440 I was with in Argentina and go co -worker also 00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:06.849 that year. And back then, we were cooking the 00:28:06.849 --> 00:28:10.009 gargiyu in Mugaritz. He and I were responsible 00:28:10.009 --> 00:28:12.730 for, you know, collecting 45 different leaves 00:28:12.730 --> 00:28:16.369 for every single plate from 45 different plants. 00:28:16.529 --> 00:28:19.170 And you would have, like, this ikebana of this 00:28:19.170 --> 00:28:21.470 salad where every leaf was a different plant. 00:28:21.809 --> 00:28:25.069 As you can imagine, it will take all day just 00:28:25.069 --> 00:28:28.650 to make that misanplas. And I remember he describing 00:28:28.650 --> 00:28:31.210 all the work. We were in a cider house, and he 00:28:31.210 --> 00:28:33.539 was telling... Yeah, and then you do this and 00:28:33.539 --> 00:28:35.480 that. And at the end, the dish is this little. 00:28:35.680 --> 00:28:39.039 It's like this. And the cider house worker were 00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:41.519 listening, you know, like they're just listening. 00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:43.420 They weren't part of the conversation. And they 00:28:43.420 --> 00:28:46.759 cracked laughing like, oh, you fucking idiots. 00:28:47.859 --> 00:28:51.140 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there are this many 00:28:51.140 --> 00:28:53.279 things about fine dining that I remember when 00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:55.160 I started cooking that I was really interested 00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:59.940 because I thought, like you said, like it's the 00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:02.200 highest level and everything. But then when it 00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:04.519 comes to these things where you see people spending 00:29:04.519 --> 00:29:08.460 three hours taking, I don't know, like a coriander 00:29:08.460 --> 00:29:12.440 leaf and cutting it in a square to make it, to 00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:14.059 put it on a plate. And at the end of the day, 00:29:14.099 --> 00:29:16.690 that... coriander leaf will taste exactly the 00:29:16.690 --> 00:29:19.569 same if it's a square or if it's its natural 00:29:19.569 --> 00:29:24.289 shape that nature wisely created for it you know 00:29:24.289 --> 00:29:27.089 like and these approaches these kind of things 00:29:27.089 --> 00:29:29.309 i remember also talking with a friend of us about 00:29:29.309 --> 00:29:31.029 this and he asked me but what do you think about 00:29:31.029 --> 00:29:33.829 this italian grandmothers that do the best stew 00:29:33.829 --> 00:29:37.059 in the world Is that comparable to what you see 00:29:37.059 --> 00:29:38.400 in a three -star restaurant? And I was like, 00:29:38.500 --> 00:29:40.299 yes, but in a three -star restaurant, they would 00:29:40.299 --> 00:29:43.819 put, like, coriander leaves cut and squares on 00:29:43.819 --> 00:29:47.059 top of that soup to make it, like, more fine 00:29:47.059 --> 00:29:50.339 dining -y, you know? And I recently also had, 00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:53.380 like, a lot of thought about, you just talked 00:29:53.380 --> 00:29:57.779 about impact. And we went to Noma together, and 00:29:57.779 --> 00:30:02.440 that was an impactful dinner. But I think Echavarri 00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:05.779 was more impactful because at Echavarri, we have 00:30:05.779 --> 00:30:08.980 like a 16 course menu. And from the 16 courses, 00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:12.279 I think about four or five, I can say is the 00:30:12.279 --> 00:30:14.299 best steak I've had, the best grilled fish I've 00:30:14.299 --> 00:30:17.099 had, the best caviar I've had, the best dessert 00:30:17.099 --> 00:30:19.400 I've had. And there was something else. I remember 00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:21.099 there were five things where I was like, wow, 00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:24.779 like saying that. These are big words, saying 00:30:24.779 --> 00:30:27.619 best steak or best grilled fish are big, big 00:30:27.619 --> 00:30:31.920 words. It's not just whatever. And even if I 00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:36.039 had impactful moments at Noma, I think that this 00:30:36.039 --> 00:30:41.259 has prevailed in my memory because they're touching 00:30:41.259 --> 00:30:46.140 a note, a reference that I already knew, so it's 00:30:46.140 --> 00:30:48.160 comparable with all of the other steaks I've 00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:51.789 ever tried. And at the same time, I think it's, 00:30:51.789 --> 00:30:58.329 for example, in art, I always prefer someone 00:30:58.329 --> 00:31:03.269 that applied width and that maybe with just two 00:31:03.269 --> 00:31:08.009 lines generated an aha effect, a moment where 00:31:08.009 --> 00:31:11.690 you say, oh, wow, that's really smart. And this 00:31:11.690 --> 00:31:16.190 person only needed five seconds, like Picasso, 00:31:16.390 --> 00:31:19.339 three lines and suddenly... wow, that's impactful 00:31:19.339 --> 00:31:21.460 and that's something I will remember and I won't 00:31:21.460 --> 00:31:24.519 forget or it makes me laugh. And it only took 00:31:24.519 --> 00:31:28.960 this person three lines to make. While when I 00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:31.279 see another artist that had like all of this 00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:34.720 elaboration of thousands of years to make a painting 00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:37.480 and at the end of the day, I might not even stop 00:31:37.480 --> 00:31:39.500 to look at it. I will look at it and go to the 00:31:39.500 --> 00:31:43.319 next one. You know what I mean? And I think for 00:31:43.319 --> 00:31:46.730 me... Personally, it's a matter of taste. I always 00:31:46.730 --> 00:31:51.529 find more value in doing a lot with little. For 00:31:51.529 --> 00:31:54.410 me, it's way more interesting. And I think that's 00:31:54.410 --> 00:31:56.170 something that, well, at the end of the day, 00:31:56.190 --> 00:31:58.430 Echavarri is fine dining too. It's not like it's 00:31:58.430 --> 00:32:01.589 like a cider house, you know? It's a Michelin 00:32:01.589 --> 00:32:03.549 star place, you know? And you get caviar and 00:32:03.549 --> 00:32:07.309 lobster and so on. But you won't find anything 00:32:07.309 --> 00:32:11.240 pretentious about it, I would say. Even though 00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:14.720 these are the finest products, it's not pretentious. 00:32:14.740 --> 00:32:18.299 It's just respectful and applying high -end technique. 00:32:18.970 --> 00:32:21.809 But there is no flory tour around it. He's not 00:32:21.809 --> 00:32:25.190 putting like, and nobody spent like the whole 00:32:25.190 --> 00:32:28.250 morning preparing some crackers with the shape 00:32:28.250 --> 00:32:31.769 of a Lego block to put it on top of the plate. 00:32:31.849 --> 00:32:35.809 And there was a stagiaire that was cutting leaves 00:32:35.809 --> 00:32:39.910 in square shapes and spent the whole week just 00:32:39.910 --> 00:32:42.210 doing that the whole day just to make a little 00:32:42.210 --> 00:32:45.529 mountain of squared cilantro leaves. And for 00:32:45.529 --> 00:32:47.269 me, that was from the very beginning like that. 00:32:47.900 --> 00:32:49.819 I would see that, and for me it was bullshit. 00:32:49.980 --> 00:32:52.019 When I would see the things, I was like, what's 00:32:52.019 --> 00:32:54.359 the purpose of this? Like, I don't get it, you 00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:57.519 know? And that's... That's my opinion on fine 00:32:57.519 --> 00:32:59.500 dining. And I do enjoy going to a fine dining 00:32:59.500 --> 00:33:02.099 restaurant every once in a while. And for me, 00:33:02.140 --> 00:33:04.259 it's an impactful experience. Also, a joyful 00:33:04.259 --> 00:33:07.359 experience enjoying not only the food, but also 00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:09.420 the setting and the environment and touching 00:33:09.420 --> 00:33:11.640 the textures of whatever, of the table and the 00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:14.839 dishware and everything, or the sounds or the 00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:17.700 smells or the air and everything. But yeah, I 00:33:17.700 --> 00:33:21.920 have that clear distinction of visions, of basically 00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:26.250 bullshit and a great experience. By the way, 00:33:26.289 --> 00:33:28.670 I'm not saying Noma was bullshit. It was probably 00:33:28.670 --> 00:33:31.710 one of the top meals in my life. I'm just making 00:33:31.710 --> 00:33:36.529 this distinction of making something that prevails 00:33:36.529 --> 00:33:39.210 in your mind. There were, of course, things that, 00:33:39.210 --> 00:33:41.869 even though tasted like nothing else I've ever 00:33:41.869 --> 00:33:44.630 tried, that I will remember all of my life. For 00:33:44.630 --> 00:33:47.369 example, that honeycomb kombucha. That's something 00:33:47.369 --> 00:33:50.730 that we had at Noma, and there were other things 00:33:50.730 --> 00:33:54.589 that I was like, wow. I think it's way more difficult, 00:33:54.630 --> 00:33:56.930 and I see more merit in doing the best steak 00:33:56.930 --> 00:33:58.789 in the world than doing something that no one 00:33:58.789 --> 00:34:03.349 has ever done before. Well, it's different approaches. 00:34:03.430 --> 00:34:05.069 I wouldn't say one is better than the other. 00:34:05.109 --> 00:34:07.589 It's just a matter of taste. No, I think that's 00:34:07.589 --> 00:34:11.309 really well put, how you've described it, and 00:34:11.309 --> 00:34:14.230 I completely agree with you. At the end of the 00:34:14.230 --> 00:34:17.340 day, it's a common thread. no in cooking in art 00:34:17.340 --> 00:34:21.000 and music um that you know this the whole idea 00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:24.500 of doing less um but not just doing less doing 00:34:24.500 --> 00:34:27.960 less right you know like hitting that perfect 00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:30.820 note you know and that's so so extremely difficult 00:34:30.820 --> 00:34:32.360 and it's like you know there's this really beautiful 00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:34.400 clip of marco pier white where he's like he's 00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:36.820 talking about that the really great chefs let 00:34:36.820 --> 00:34:39.340 mother nature be the artist and but there's this 00:34:39.340 --> 00:34:42.519 uh this this time like and that's obviously like 00:34:42.519 --> 00:34:44.599 an opinion you know that's like one approach 00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:47.119 But there's this like part where he says sort 00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:49.619 of like, they make it seem so simple, don't they? 00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:52.780 But it's not, you know? And that's exactly it. 00:34:52.840 --> 00:34:55.440 It's kind of like the simpleness, doing less, 00:34:55.659 --> 00:34:59.599 but doing less like exactly right, hitting the 00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:01.960 nail on the head. And that's so extremely difficult 00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:04.699 and it takes so much because what you're basically 00:35:04.699 --> 00:35:07.400 talking about is, you know, with this cutting 00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:09.480 things into squares and stuff, that's superficial, 00:35:09.800 --> 00:35:13.210 right? It's all superficial. superficial things 00:35:13.210 --> 00:35:16.130 that try to fill out a space, a space where the 00:35:16.130 --> 00:35:18.329 substantial is supposed to be. And the substantial 00:35:18.329 --> 00:35:21.929 is the soul of what you're having and the impact 00:35:21.929 --> 00:35:24.789 it has. Everything else is just fluff. It's just 00:35:24.789 --> 00:35:27.309 decoration. Yeah, and another analogy, for example, 00:35:27.369 --> 00:35:30.429 as you know, I love rap music, you know, and 00:35:30.429 --> 00:35:33.170 it's not the same like a rapper that tries to 00:35:33.170 --> 00:35:35.949 put as many words in 10 seconds as possible and 00:35:35.949 --> 00:35:40.349 does that. As someone that just uses three or 00:35:40.349 --> 00:35:42.920 four words and is... bam, it's impactful and 00:35:42.920 --> 00:35:45.780 it creates an image and it's memorable and it 00:35:45.780 --> 00:35:49.260 has like a triple meaning. And, you know, like 00:35:49.260 --> 00:35:52.699 that's for me what art is about, in my opinion. 00:35:57.460 --> 00:36:00.000 That's it for this week's episode of Potluck 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:02.440 Food Talks. If you like what we're doing, make 00:36:02.440 --> 00:36:04.719 sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never 00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:07.360 miss an episode. 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