You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Hi,
everyone. Welcome to Potluck Food Talks. I'm
Eric. I'm here with Bahamut. And we're going
to talk about... Just throw some random questions.
Yeah, it's just a little general catch -up. I
feel like we haven't recorded in a while. True.
True, true, true, true. Anything new to share
from your side? Nothing crazy, nothing crazy.
Just the same old madness. What about you? Well,
yesterday I had a tour guest that told me something
that I said, I should bring this out on my podcast.
Do you agree that if you see somebody eating
a pie, you know, a slice, like a cake, let's
say a cheesecake, for example, and if that person
starts eating, not from the tip, but from the
back, It's probably a psychopath. Do you agree
with that? I 50 % agree with that because we
can all agree that it's going to make all of
us uncomfortable seeing that, right? Because,
but why, you know? Because we have been, we're
programmed in a certain way, right? So at the
same time, you know, I can respect somebody just
not giving a shit about the general opinion.
and just saying like, hey, I am going to break
free of my social chains. I'm going to break
free of this fucking ant hive mind. I'm going
to eat my slice of cake exactly how the fuck
I want. And I can really respect that. And you
know what? Maybe I'm just going to start doing
it. I do think you need to be a psychopath, you
know, especially in a cheesecake where you have
like that runny middle thing out there asking
you to please put your spoon in it. And you go
to the back, you know, like to the backside.
And it's, yeah, it's just counterintuitive. But,
but isn't the tip, the like creamiest part, the
like very best part of a cheesecake? So why wouldn't
you start from the back? And, you know, because
starting with the tip is kind of like premature
ejaculation. You know, you're just kind of like
you're starting with the best bit already. If
you start from the back. which sometimes with
premature ejaculation you also do. Let's now
go further with those analogies. You're leaving
the best part for the very last bit. It makes
sense if you think about it. So you prepared
some questions. Let me go through them. So we
wanted to throw some random questions and discuss
them. Who's been a major influence that caused
a turning point in your career? Do you have anything
in mind for that? That cast a turning point in
my career? I mean, you wrote that question. I
was expecting you to have like a super prepared
answer. Like, of course, I know. I know exactly
what you mean. Let me think. I can think of quite
a few, you know, and probably Mugatti as a place.
made like a major turning point, not only in
my career, but I would say in my life. You know,
like I remember Anthony Bourdain once wrote that
going to Mugaritz is a life transforming experience.
And I really felt that way. It really changed
my way of understanding many things and work.
I've heard a lot of people saying that they didn't
learn how to cook there, but how to work and
approach work. Yes. I really see that. That was
one. Also, like, head chefs that I had, like,
in different places where I worked, and especially,
like, people that were really mentally quick,
you know, that could solve problems quickly in
situations where most people would panic. They
would come out with a quick solution right away,
like, ah, 2 plus 2 is 4. Like, it's very obvious.
And everybody around is like, how the fuck did
you do that? Or how the fuck did you came up
with that? Probably my first sous chef in Caracas,
a guy called Ruben Martinez. Yeah, because we
work in a kitchen with very few resources and
he would just cowboy everything, you know, like
no strainer while taking a tray with holes and
using it as a strainer. No coffee ice cream while
taking a vanilla ice cream and throwing an espresso
and mixing it a la minute. You know, like this
kind of things, like just like that. Like he
had done it a hundred times before, but of course
he hadn't. He was just reacting and knowing that
you just want to get out of this situation as
fast as you can and see around the resources
that you have available and use them. What do
you have? What can you use? Okay, coffee, ice
cream, punk. No strainer? Okay, a tray with holes?
Strain, you know, like that. No oil? Just putting
a fish inside a... a vegetable preserved with
oil and throwing it to the pan. Because there
was no oil a day in Caracas already 20 years
ago. Suddenly, there was no oil in the whole
city. You know, like, crazy stuff. At least in
Latin America, man. Yeah, totally. That sort
of skill set of, like, improvising off the cuff
is really, really valuable. I mean, we've, like,
we've, you and me, we've shared a couple of situations
where we've done that. We've talked about this
already also. But it's also something that I
don't see in a lot of chefs anymore. Like you
see it very, very rarely. This kind of like really
adapts sort of like problem solving kind of thing.
It's sort of like, oh, this is happening. I'm
going to jump in. I'm going to do this. Like
when I was in Mugares, for example, like it was
the same thing. I had just come out of Margaux
where we were working together. And there were
also a couple of situations like that. And everybody
would just kind of be sort of like, oh, this
is happening. And, you know, you kind of sort
of like, and it's just like. blah blah blah blah
blah blah oh why didn't you do this why didn't
you do that and you kind of just like shut the
fuck up and just fucking like do you know and
you just like stop crying you just stop talking
you just jump into action you're like okay what
can i do and often you find a solution i remember
what well you're now working with michelle hopfield
i would say that's also like a guy that that
really well i would say i already saw like stuff
he would do before But I would say he would do
those kind of things, like problem solving a
la minute, like in a very high -level way, you
know? And I remember one of these situations,
I don't remember, I think it was a machine that
was not working, and that machine was key for
whatever we were doing. I think it was like a
little mixer, and it wouldn't turn on. I don't
remember what machine it was, to be honest. But
I remember I was trying things, like putting
the bottom, and I would go to him, and I'm like,
it's not working, what should I do? And he said
like 10 times to me, one after the other, that
I would say the same thing. He would say, continue
trying. Try more. Just try more. And at the end,
I did it. Yeah, Michael was also for sure one
of, I didn't want to start with him, but for
sure one of the big turning points in my career
also. I mean, when we worked at Margot together,
I have lots of very good memories of him. Like
he was very, like very out there, you know, he
was very full on, gave me a lot of shit. But
especially like afterwards when I, when I worked
with him here in Dubai. Yeah. I mean, just such
a, like, not just from a cooking perspective,
which is like really down my alley because it's
all about flavor. It's all about flavor. Nothing
else matters, you know, flavor, flavor, flavor,
flavor. And also how things make you feel. Like,
how do you feel after eating something? It's
not just about like fucking butter and this and
that and blah, but like, you feel good after
eating something? Like, good. If you go for an
omakase tasting menu, you eat 12 courses, you
walk out and you feel like shit, you didn't do
a good job. I think that's also something that
not a lot of people think about. But that aside,
the managing aspect and like, he's a businessman,
you know? He's a full -on businessman. Like,
I have not met a lot of chefs who have such a
good understanding of business and of like managing
people. And really kind of just like making it
work. The jobs that I did afterwards, you know,
like I had been a head chef before, but then
when I was a head chef there. That's interesting
because my impression I have about him is as
a craftsman, not as a businessman, because probably
he wasn't a businessman when we were working
with him back then. And later he became one.
But like, this is the thing, right? So like,
he's a super, super good craftsman, amazing chef,
right? One of the best chefs I've ever worked
with. And then he had a Michelin star in Berlin.
And then he made this career choice, right? After
a couple of years of being in Berlin, having
a Michelin star, he decided to make a complete
direction change and go into the Zuma group and
then worked many years in the Zuma group. And
there, but he made this decision, right? He was
sort of like, okay, I could continue being in
Germany and in Berlin, but he knew that he could
only go so and so far. Because he worked in some
of the best restaurants in the world. I think
he was in Can Roca, he was with Sergio Herrmann,
he was in... What's the name of this place? Cristian
Bauer. Cristian Bauer, and also a two -star place
in Portugal. I don't remember the name. Yeah.
Dimitri something, the chef? I'm not sure. maybe
maybe yeah but like in amazing places like super
the highest level of cooking for me that's crazy
because when i asked him which was the best restaurant
he ever worked with and he he was already in
all of these places he said that place in portugal
yeah yes yeah but it sounds if you hear stories
from that place it sounds fucking nuts it sounds
absolutely crazy why well like since you opened
that door let it out I can't replicate all the
stories. Like he's told me many of them, but
like, it just sounds like also the head chef
was just like absolutely nuts. I think they were
working themselves to absolute bits. Just pretty
crazy. Just working and partying and working
and partying and working and partying. Okay.
Okay. That kind of crazy stuff. Yeah. But also
like the head chef just seems like absolutely
nuts. Villa Gioia. That's what it's called. Villa
Gioia. Okay. Yeah. But honestly, you know, working
for Michael Hoffman at Margot. The big turning
point, because you know why? Like the place that
had its problems and stuff, you know, and looking
back at the food, you know, you can think whatever.
Dieter Goschina is a chef for people who are
curious. Sorry, continue. You know, like afterwards,
when you go out into the culinary world and you
hear about people like Alain Passat or Michel
Bras, having worked at Mago, you already had
an understanding of what they were trying to
do. I think if you were from a different restaurant.
And you hear about this like herb approach and
local like old vegetable varieties and this and
that and blah. You're kind of sort of like, okay,
yeah, that's cool. But like, whatever, you know,
it's vegetables. And having worked at Margot,
there were so many things at Margot that were
really special. Really, really special. So many
dishes that I still think about also. So many
like combinations of flavors and like a certain
sensibility. And at the end, a lot of things
contributed to that getting kind of like distorted.
I have my own opinion on this. I think he was
just trying to be too Frenchy, allure du cas,
fine dining -y. But the idea behind a lot of
things was very, very good. Yeah, I agree. I
agree. Yeah, but also obviously Mugaritz as a
place. You were in Mugaritz during a time where
I think the food was amazing. When I was there,
some things were amazing, some things were not.
But as a place, it completely changed my career.
100%. It just opened everything. I was at a good
starting point as a chef. I had good experience
and stuff for my age. And then I went there and
just through being there, just through having
that connection, it just opened up everything.
Okay, another question. Can you think of a time
where you really, genuinely impressed someone
with your food? Yeah, for sure, man. For sure.
I mean... I see it all the time. Not to sound
cocky, you know, but like, I mean, you get to
a point where you can make things very, very
tasty, right? But I think we're talking beyond
tasty, no? I remember when I was, this is like
two years ago when I was a head chef at Otto
in Berlin. I made a hay ice cream, ice cream
out of roasted hay. For people who don't know,
if you get the right kind of hay and you roast
it, which is right, and you infuse it in milk.
It has a flavor of almost like speculoos spices.
It's kind of like grassy, but nutty, like a little
bit like cinnamon sort of like flavor. It's really,
really delicious. You roast it, you infuse it
in milk, you use the milk to make an ice cream.
I don't even remember what I served with it.
I think it was like a take on like a carrot cake
with like German root vegetables, like a very
juicy kind of like cake. served it to somebody
and they started to cry because this flavor of
the hay reminded them of their childhood when
they grew up on a farm. And yeah, that was really
crazy. I also made someone cry on a good way
with my food. Never on a bad way, fortunately.
But yeah, I was thinking about the same way when
I read this question and it was... So I had the,
you know, when I cook at home or, like, for a
dinner party or whatever, probably you do the
same. Like, I have just, like, a 30 % is a plan,
and the rest I'm just flowing, you know? I'm
just... if I go to the market, I will grab stuff
that was not in my plan at the beginning. And
while I'm cooking, I will add stuff like process
wise that I wasn't thinking about doing earlier.
So, and I started like, you know, like improvising
and building, and then it comes out something
that, you know, was built on the go. Yeah. So
this was a dinner party. Usually when there is
a dinner party where a lot of people are cooking,
I always take the sweets, the desserts, or the
salads because I think those are the things nobody
wants to take effort in doing something special,
right? Like everybody wants to do the meat or
the whatever, you know? So it was this dinner
party. I had some very good vanilla banana ice
cream that I got from a restaurant. And it was
like a very simple dessert. So I just did like
a simple chocolate cake with that ice cream.
But then at that house, we had, like, a super
good, like, aged balsamic vinegar. And I remember,
like, this idea of doing strawberries with balsamic.
So it's kind of like a traditional thing in Italy.
So I did, like, this strawberry salad to go with
that, with the ice cream and the chocolate cake.
And it had session pepper. It had this balsamic
vinegar. It had the strawberries and the whole
thing. And, yeah. There were some friends and
there was a couple and she, as soon as she tried,
she started like crying. And I never had that
before. And it was like really, really something
special. Yeah, it's really cool. It's crazy how
food can like have these reactions on you. There's
this movie, like some people like it, some people
hate it. It's the movie with Bradley Cooper where
he's a chef in London. I think it's called Burnt.
and it's like it's very over the top you know
it's like about you know he's very angry he's
trying to get like michelle stars it's like you
know it's it's a little bit silly but there's
um there's a couple of scenes that are nice in
there and he's talking about how he wants people
to feel when they eat his food and he says that
oh when i when i when people like an article
comes out and they're sort of like oh it's like
really excellent and he's like it's not enough
i want people to be sick with longing you know
this like When we talk about like old school,
like gourmet food, you know, where flavor is
key. You know, this like moment where, because
things can be delicious. But have you ever had
this experience where you have something in front
of you and you look at it and then you take the
first mouthful and you just stop for a second
because it's so good? Absolutely, all the time.
And you're like, and I feel like you. don't get
that very often anymore especially in restaurants
especially in high -end restaurants it's all
like the idea is cool and it looks good and blah
but this and it can be delicious don't get me
wrong it can be good but we're not talking like
we're talking about this level of cooking we're
not talking about good and like very good we're
talking about good and like infinitely above
that this moment of sort of like you take it
in your mouth and you're like oh my god you melt
away and i feel like not a lot of people are
really striving for that anymore Quite a lot
in my tours, you know, because the thing about
my tours is that I, the curation, I want to select
stuff that I think it's outstanding, right? Like
a lot of people, you know, come from, I don't
know, cities where the food is not so good. And
so they can really be impressed. And I've learned
like to leave them because I'm talking a lot
during my tours. I'm dropping info and info and
telling them stuff all the time. But at the moment
when they're eating specific dishes that I know,
I shut the fuck up and I just leave them. And
I see them, that they're really tripping on a
specific bite, you know, and I leave them and
I go away, you know, whatever, to pay the bill
or whatever. Yeah. Talking about that, what's
your take on music or silence, both in cooking
and dining? Ah, look, I made a rhyme. Such a
poet. I don't have a particularly strong opinion
about it, honestly. I like listening to music
while I'm cooking, just because I like to listen
to music. I also like having music on in service.
I don't mind there being music. It depends on
what kind of music I wouldn't want. It really
depends what mood I'm in, right? Just as I was
listening normally to music. I know a fair few
people who would never have that. Or I've also
seen, like during prep, There's music, but as
soon as the service starts, music goes off. I've
also seen that. I can get behind it. It's also
common to see that there is music on until something
goes really wrong and the service gets really
tense. And then the music just becomes like an
element of annoyance that needs to be turned
off. I can understand that. I can definitely
understand that. I've never really felt that.
I was kind of like, nah. If you get thrown off
by a little bit of background music, then what
are you even doing? It's my opinion, right? It
doesn't do any effect on me. I like listening
to music. It kind of keeps me in a flow and stuff
like that. But I can also work in silence. Totally
fine. In the dining room, I also don't think
like... Like music can be nice. It can be a little
bit annoying. Silence can be nice. It can be...
Like it just depends on the context. But I don't
necessarily think that it's crucial for the experience.
Okay. I do have some thoughts on that. Like I
think it needs to be cohesive. cohesive conceptually
you know like it has to go hand in hand you know
like you can't be like i don't know like in a
omakasa and having a full volume reggaeton you
know but you can be like but you can be in a
latin restaurant and have a full volume reggaeton
and it would work you know like i think that
those things have to You know, like the rest
of the restaurant experience where the paintings
or the dishware have to be conceptually cohesive.
You know, like it can be like completely divorced
conceptually. I can think of experiences where
the music really played a role in the experience.
And it comes to my mind when I was in Mass in
Tokyo, this Peruvian restaurant. I've talked
a lot of it a few times. And I remember, so the
music, I would describe it as kind of like psychedelic.
You know, it was kind of like trippy that you
felt you were getting into, I don't know, some
kind of Amazonian vibe kind of thing, like some
kind of ayahuasca trip kind of vibes. Yeah. And
yet at the same time, this played like a direct,
I think that the food that he does has also this
kind of like psychedelic. kind of thing, lots
of colors, lots of textures, a lot of suggestions
to jungles or ecosystems and this kind of stuff.
And I think that made completely sense to me,
you know? Yeah, like I said, or I remember in
places where they would play that, like, very
fast -paced music, and it was all like, dude,
you're eating, and suddenly you start, like,
you know, like... Like getting an epileptic attack
suddenly. And I think this bossa nova vibe kind
of thing, for a reason, should be banned. It
should be illegal. That's my opinion on those
ones, on those bossa nova playlists, chill out
study. Like that elevator kind of music. Exactly
that. I hate that shit. I really hate it. yeah
see i don't mind i don't mind like it's for me
it's kind of like whatever you know i i i often
i feel like it can play into it a lot like you
say like with the the thing at mass i totally
get that but i'm never really like unless it's
like really bad the other day i was in here our
restaurant in in here in dubai and i was standing
at the pass and i was like looking up i was like
what kind of fucking music are we playing right
now it was such a bizarre weird sort of like
house techno thing but like really kind of like
Like creepy circus music. And I was like, is
this the vibe that we want to give people? I'd
walk into a restaurant and I'd hear that full
set of music. I'd turn around and walk the fuck
out. This is something I've heard you... What
was I going to ask? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I
have it. This is something I've heard opinions
of you on this topic and maybe you could elaborate
on that. How has your perception on the concept
of fine dining changed along the years? Since
you began cooking and today, what was it then?
What is it now? And what happened on the way?
When I started cooking, I knew I wanted to be
in fine dining because I wanted to cook at the
highest level with a lot of expression. That's
what I wanted. And it seemed like the most free
form and the highest level of things. And in
the beginning, you don't really know what anything
fucking means, right? Like you look at a restaurant
and you look at food and it's just like one thing.
You can't look behind the curtain, right? And
then you start cooking, you realize that there's
lots of things that play a role into it. And
then you go into different restaurants and you
see that the differences between like different
cooking styles. And I had a big turning point
when, I don't want to throw shade on Mugaritz
endlessly, you know, but I had a big turning
point when I was at Mugaritz because Basque cooking
is amazing, right? Like the food that you find
in the Basque country is some of the most impactful
that I've ever encountered. Just like in Japan,
right? Where you find places that do certain
things that you eat and they really make you
stop. And so I was doing all this like super
very... um brainy theoretical food but even as
a young chef i was kind of like certain dishes
there were a couple of dishes where i was like
what the fuck are we doing here you ask yourself
that and then you and you work like a fucking
animal right you work five and a half days a
week all day long you're just running like an
idiot and then you go out on your day off And
you go to like some small grill house, right?
Where there's like, there was a sidreria really
near to the stagia house between Urnieta and
Lazarte. And the guy behind the grill that owned
it is called, you can guess it, Jose Mari. Ah,
okay. I was expecting Mikkel. No, Jose Mari.
And just like, he was just like grilling there.
It was so like, it was so... Low key, like his
family, there was like a big kitchen with the
grills, you know, the like saw to saw the chuletas
from the half cow, a big wooden table. His family
would often sit there, peel potatoes, cutting
like patatas fritas. And the food was amazing.
You know, revuelto de bacalao, cocochas, the
chuleta, one of the best chuletas I've ever had.
It was so good. I used to go there with Kevin
a lot. We had a Chuleta eating competition at
one point, which I very, very crushingly lost.
I wouldn't mess with a Chuleta competition with
Kevin ever. I mean, he's way bigger than you,
man. What were you thinking? No, and I think
his determination is just of a different caliber
also. It's a mental game. Chuleta eating is a
mental game. At a certain point, it's a mental
game. Anyway. And like the food was fucking amazing,
you know, and it's this guy in his shirt, he's
drinking cider, he's grilling, he's like coming
out laughing, talking to people. And you're like,
I've just spent like 70 hours working in a kitchen
with 14 other chefs, you know. And like, I look
at the food that we do and like, of course, it's
interesting. Of course, it's beautiful, but does
it have the same impact? And I had that experience
repeatedly of just. The sensation of when you
sit down, you eat the food and the deliciousness
of it. Because I am a chef, I like deliciousness
in food. You know, fucking crazy, right? And
that really, really changed me. And I realized
that I don't want, and there were a couple of
people that worked at Mugaritz that I really
didn't respect when I was there. A couple of
chef de parties and sous chefs and head chefs.
And I saw them and I was like, you just don't
know how to cook, do you? Like, what are you
doing here? Like if the water bath breaks and
there's a sous chef at the chef de party, they
can't cook steaks. And I was like, I never, ever
want to be that guy. Never, ever. If I become
a chef de party, a sous chef, a head chef, I
want people to look at something that I'm doing
and be sort of like, oh, wow, that's really good.
I want to be able to do that one day with everything,
whether I'm cutting a brunoise, whether I'm roasting
a pigeon, whether I'm filleting a fish, anything.
I have to. That has to be the case. Otherwise,
why the fuck would you work for me? And that
was really like a big turning point. And then
I particularly chose restaurants where I felt
like they were really, really good at cooking,
not the whole concept. You said many things that
brought me some memories. Actually, we would
also go to cider houses a lot while I was in
Mugaritz. And I remember one of these cider houses
I was with in Argentina and go co -worker also
that year. And back then, we were cooking the
gargiyu in Mugaritz. He and I were responsible
for, you know, collecting 45 different leaves
for every single plate from 45 different plants.
And you would have, like, this ikebana of this
salad where every leaf was a different plant.
As you can imagine, it will take all day just
to make that misanplas. And I remember he describing
all the work. We were in a cider house, and he
was telling... Yeah, and then you do this and
that. And at the end, the dish is this little.
It's like this. And the cider house worker were
listening, you know, like they're just listening.
They weren't part of the conversation. And they
cracked laughing like, oh, you fucking idiots.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there are this many
things about fine dining that I remember when
I started cooking that I was really interested
because I thought, like you said, like it's the
highest level and everything. But then when it
comes to these things where you see people spending
three hours taking, I don't know, like a coriander
leaf and cutting it in a square to make it, to
put it on a plate. And at the end of the day,
that... coriander leaf will taste exactly the
same if it's a square or if it's its natural
shape that nature wisely created for it you know
like and these approaches these kind of things
i remember also talking with a friend of us about
this and he asked me but what do you think about
this italian grandmothers that do the best stew
in the world Is that comparable to what you see
in a three -star restaurant? And I was like,
yes, but in a three -star restaurant, they would
put, like, coriander leaves cut and squares on
top of that soup to make it, like, more fine
dining -y, you know? And I recently also had,
like, a lot of thought about, you just talked
about impact. And we went to Noma together, and
that was an impactful dinner. But I think Echavarri
was more impactful because at Echavarri, we have
like a 16 course menu. And from the 16 courses,
I think about four or five, I can say is the
best steak I've had, the best grilled fish I've
had, the best caviar I've had, the best dessert
I've had. And there was something else. I remember
there were five things where I was like, wow,
like saying that. These are big words, saying
best steak or best grilled fish are big, big
words. It's not just whatever. And even if I
had impactful moments at Noma, I think that this
has prevailed in my memory because they're touching
a note, a reference that I already knew, so it's
comparable with all of the other steaks I've
ever tried. And at the same time, I think it's,
for example, in art, I always prefer someone
that applied width and that maybe with just two
lines generated an aha effect, a moment where
you say, oh, wow, that's really smart. And this
person only needed five seconds, like Picasso,
three lines and suddenly... wow, that's impactful
and that's something I will remember and I won't
forget or it makes me laugh. And it only took
this person three lines to make. While when I
see another artist that had like all of this
elaboration of thousands of years to make a painting
and at the end of the day, I might not even stop
to look at it. I will look at it and go to the
next one. You know what I mean? And I think for
me... Personally, it's a matter of taste. I always
find more value in doing a lot with little. For
me, it's way more interesting. And I think that's
something that, well, at the end of the day,
Echavarri is fine dining too. It's not like it's
like a cider house, you know? It's a Michelin
star place, you know? And you get caviar and
lobster and so on. But you won't find anything
pretentious about it, I would say. Even though
these are the finest products, it's not pretentious.
It's just respectful and applying high -end technique.
But there is no flory tour around it. He's not
putting like, and nobody spent like the whole
morning preparing some crackers with the shape
of a Lego block to put it on top of the plate.
And there was a stagiaire that was cutting leaves
in square shapes and spent the whole week just
doing that the whole day just to make a little
mountain of squared cilantro leaves. And for
me, that was from the very beginning like that.
I would see that, and for me it was bullshit.
When I would see the things, I was like, what's
the purpose of this? Like, I don't get it, you
know? And that's... That's my opinion on fine
dining. And I do enjoy going to a fine dining
restaurant every once in a while. And for me,
it's an impactful experience. Also, a joyful
experience enjoying not only the food, but also
the setting and the environment and touching
the textures of whatever, of the table and the
dishware and everything, or the sounds or the
smells or the air and everything. But yeah, I
have that clear distinction of visions, of basically
bullshit and a great experience. By the way,
I'm not saying Noma was bullshit. It was probably
one of the top meals in my life. I'm just making
this distinction of making something that prevails
in your mind. There were, of course, things that,
even though tasted like nothing else I've ever
tried, that I will remember all of my life. For
example, that honeycomb kombucha. That's something
that we had at Noma, and there were other things
that I was like, wow. I think it's way more difficult,
and I see more merit in doing the best steak
in the world than doing something that no one
has ever done before. Well, it's different approaches.
I wouldn't say one is better than the other.
It's just a matter of taste. No, I think that's
really well put, how you've described it, and
I completely agree with you. At the end of the
day, it's a common thread. no in cooking in art
and music um that you know this the whole idea
of doing less um but not just doing less doing
less right you know like hitting that perfect
note you know and that's so so extremely difficult
and it's like you know there's this really beautiful
clip of marco pier white where he's like he's
talking about that the really great chefs let
mother nature be the artist and but there's this
uh this this time like and that's obviously like
an opinion you know that's like one approach
But there's this like part where he says sort
of like, they make it seem so simple, don't they?
But it's not, you know? And that's exactly it.
It's kind of like the simpleness, doing less,
but doing less like exactly right, hitting the
nail on the head. And that's so extremely difficult
and it takes so much because what you're basically
talking about is, you know, with this cutting
things into squares and stuff, that's superficial,
right? It's all superficial. superficial things
that try to fill out a space, a space where the
substantial is supposed to be. And the substantial
is the soul of what you're having and the impact
it has. Everything else is just fluff. It's just
decoration. Yeah, and another analogy, for example,
as you know, I love rap music, you know, and
it's not the same like a rapper that tries to
put as many words in 10 seconds as possible and
does that. As someone that just uses three or
four words and is... bam, it's impactful and
it creates an image and it's memorable and it
has like a triple meaning. And, you know, like
that's for me what art is about, in my opinion.
That's it for this week's episode of Potluck
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