You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Hi,
everyone. Welcome to Potluck Food Talks. Today,
we have a special guest, Giacomo Zanni. He's
an Italian chef working here in San Sebastian.
Welcome, Giacomo. How are you doing? Thank you.
Thank you. Very good. Thank you. Thank you for
the invitation. And let's start right here. Did
you grow up in Firenze, in Tuscany? Yes, yes.
I was born in Florence in 1991. I started my
career, I did just cooking courses, if you can
say like this, just a few, really few months.
And I started to work in a canteen in a pharmaceutical
company. I mean, I started from the beginning
of the beginning, peeling potato, cleaning salad,
preparing the food for like 400 people, something
like this. And after I said step by step, I did
my experience in different places, different
kind of cuisine, different level, of course,
and different country also. And that's it. I
visited the Tuscany once. I was in Firenze, in
Siena, in Montalcino with incredible wines. Yeah,
it was beautiful. Lucca also, yeah, beautiful
cities. You kind of breathe gastronomy in the
region. Like everything is just delicious there.
The produce is amazing. Yeah, you can have a
different variety of restaurants from the more
traditional, really... trattoria osteria style
like you're gonna say in italian from the gastronomic
one but i think also it's not only two scanning
you have a general italy it's a country that's
famous i mean for the food of course And for
the variety of the ingredients that you can find
there from the north to the south of Italy, you
can have a very big variety of vegetables, fruit,
meat, fish. We have a lot of different cultures
coming from a different history of every region.
It's really nice to sometimes when you can find
also... the same product, but work in a different
way. So you can find, for example, a typical
particular recipe that is coming from Tuscany.
You can move 300 kilometers, a bit more on the
south, you're going to come in Rome. And they
have something similar, but with a Romanian touch.
It's really, really nice, interesting. Yeah,
I remember my friend John Regevalk, who lived
for a long time in Rome. I asked him, if the
Bolognese should have red wine or white wine.
And he said, it depends on the grandmother. But
mostly it's like this. I mean, I know that in
the first recipe, there should be also a bit
of milk. Yeah, correct. Now, if you're going
to ask the people, when you say to them, ah,
you should put milk, the people are looking at
you like, what are you fucking saying? Yeah,
milk to the Bolognese, yeah, but it's the original
one. Exactly. But the most recipes are coming
from the grandmother. So my grandmother was putting
the tomato paste. My grandmother was putting
the fresh tomato, tomato passata, wet wine, red
wine. You have a very, very quantity of different
tradition. When did you decide to become a chef?
Or is it something that evolved organically?
How did that happen? No, like I say, I started
in 2012, 2013. I decided, I talked with my boss,
the ex -boss, the owner of this architect studio
that was also friends. And I remember that one
day he called me in the office and he told me,
I see you that you are not happy, Giacomo. He
was a really big family. I know him when I was
like four years old. And I told to him, yes,
I like it, but I'm not enjoying. And he told
me, do you think you have something more that
you would like to do, you would like to try?
And I told to him, I like to cook, I like to
eat, but I don't know if I'm in time. This was
my problem. And he told me, I remember, he told
me, listen, you are 20 years old. How you can
say you are not in time to be something? to be
a chef, to be a dentist, to be whatever you want.
And after this, I decided to talk with my parents.
And they said, OK, I think I'm going to leave
this job. And let's see. I'm going to try. And
I don't have nothing to lose. I'm going to try.
You can spend six months, one year. And after
this, you can see if it's going to work or it's
not going to work. And how did you evolve from
this canteen where you started into more, I wouldn't
say professional, but maybe more elevated, high
-end kitchens? With a lot of passion, passion.
I remember we started in the canteen doing stage,
stage, and stage, working a lot of hours, looking.
I think also when I have some new guys in Amelia,
one of the other groups that we're going to have
with Paolo, I talk to them. It's not exactly
that if you are working in a section, you cannot
see what the other people are doing. I mean,
for me, it was like this. I was working, doing
something, but I was trying to understand all
the other processes that also my colleagues are...
Was doing, no? I mean, to see, to try to steal
everything that you can. The technique, the color,
all the knowledge that you don't know. I was
trying to steal from everything, everywhere.
And the end, I started like this. Step by step,
I started to work in the hotels and after in
a restaurant. After I came back in Tuscany, we
did the opening. of Mercato Centrale, that was
another place where we were serving like 400
guests per day. But it was already a better quality
of food, if you can say like this. It was very,
very good stuff. The chef was amazing. And after
that, step by step, because I wanted to do extra.
In Florence, we have the fourth season, for example.
So my ex -chef that was working there in Mercato
Centrale was in touch with the chef that was
working in the fourth season. And I stayed like
almost one year doing extra. So when I had the
day off in this job, I was working in the fourth
season. Because over there was a different concept.
It was a Michelin star restaurant. It was also
banqueting sometimes, but it was another level.
I mean, it was a luxury level. something that
I never saw before so I wanted to learn from
everything to do like a scrambled egg that can
be an omelette or like to be to cook a perfection
one piece of meat or a whole fish or like to
do a brunoise a perfect brunoise like over there
I start to see some standards if you can say
like this and was something that I really enjoyed
I say whoa it's nice I mean, I think I want to
try to do this because it's not only that the
food is better or is not good enough, but it's
the standard. I started to learn also, I mean,
my main chef actually, of course, is Paolo. I
also met him the first time when I was in Tuscany.
It was in Borgo Santo Pietro. I stayed there.
It was a relationship, I remember. I didn't stay
there a lot of time, to be honest, only a few
weeks or like one month because I didn't find
the agreement with the owner. But I just keep
in touch with Paolo. Just to put that in context,
because I didn't mention that at the beginning,
Giacomo is the executive chef at Amelia, which
is a two Michelin star restaurant here. in San
Sebastian. And Paolo, the guy he's talking about
is Paolo Airaudo, who is the chef. He has like
a little empire nowadays. He has like how many
restaurants? Like seven restaurants, something
like that. No, quite more. It's going to be 14
or so more. We have a new opening coming. Yeah,
we have a lot of restaurants here in San Sebastian.
We are managing the kitchen of the hotel Villa
Favorita. And after we have Ibai, that's Basque
country food, that's one Michelin star. Da Filippo,
that's actually in the Michelin guide. We have
Amelia. We have Cantina, that's a bit more Argentinian
cooking style because Paul is half Italian and
half Argentinian. And after we are opening a
new restaurant that's going to be in Izakaya,
so typical Japanese traditional food. Also in
San Sebastian? Always in San Sebastian. It's
going to be in the same place where there was
Bottega. It was Bottega with a different concept,
more like traditional, some pincho, but also
traditional Italian food. So we closed that one
because it was too small. And we're going to
open over there the Isakaya. And we are opening
in one month or so more, a few weeks, the new
Bottega. There's going to be really traditional
Italian food from the north to the south. So
fresh pasta, also pizza, of course, but from
the dessert to the pasta to the risotto, really
just simple snacks from the Italian tradition.
And after there is Alea that's going to be in
Barcelona, that's one mission star. We have Noi
in Hong Kong with Chef Luigi Troiano, that's
going to be a two mission star. And we open in
December another restaurant in Bangkok, in the
Empire Tower. In a few months, we are also to
open in Chiang Mai. And in the same year, this
year, we still don't know when, before September
should be, you're going to go to open another
gastronomic restaurant in Miami. And two restaurants
more over there are always in Miami, but still
a project for the month. Okay, super nice, super
nice. Yeah, I wanted to get to that later, but
it was nice to contact you. I've been to, I think,
all of the restaurants. I went to the old Ibai.
I didn't went to Paolo's Ibai, to the regional
one. I have been to... Well, I've been to the
bar. I've been to the Pincho bar. And I think,
yeah, I had the Russian salad and the tortilla
was amazing. It was super, super nice. Yeah,
yeah. Dubai is like a bus country concept, so
we have a la barra, so the counter, but you can
order some pincho or something like this. And
after we have also the restaurant that actually
they just got the transmission installed last
year. Something interesting I think about that
bar is that since, so just to put in context,
Ibai was a traditional Basque restaurant that
was open for decades in San Sebastian and they
closed and Paulo opened it in collaboration with
the ex -owner, right? The previous, yeah, exactly.
Exactly, and now it's a place. But the interesting
thing is that... That place was closed the whole
time during COVID because it was just closed.
It was closed before COVID. So when it reopened,
I think it's the only pincho bar that looks like
bars looked before COVID, you know, without the
glasses and without a lot of things. That's pretty
cool. It was one of Paulo's favorite restaurants
just before the COVID. So he has been many times
over there. And after, of course, the COVID,
they closed everything. But the idea was to don't
open it again. At the end, Paolo said, okay,
I think that was a really nice concept. It's
a bit of a shame. Don't open it again. So let's
try. And I've tried it. It's working also. Yeah,
and I've got a Michelin star because I've never
got a star. I understand why. They were really
rude. The service was a bit more... More like
we can say in Italy, Trattoria. Yeah, it was
very honest. I went there with Shinobu Namae.
When Shinobu Namae came to San Sebastian, I went
to have lunch with him there. It was amazing.
So how is it, since we're already talking about
this whole thing about your job right now, how
is your day -to -day in this restaurant group?
Do you actively participate in all of the openings,
in the development of the concepts? Yes. Like
you said before, I'm the executive chef of Amelia,
but I'm also helping with the new opening. For
example, for Bangkok, I have been four times
the first time for the previous opening. And
after when we opened, I stayed also with one
of the sous -chefs, with Mark, one of the sous
-chefs of Amelia, with Richie, that's the head
chef. So we closed Amelia last year, the 30th
of November, and we have been all of three of
us. for two weeks and a half, less or more three
weeks there, to show to them which is our idea,
Paolo's idea of the kitchen, the quality of the
food, the quality of the service, and the most
important things, like we said also before, the
standard. I mean, what I really, really enjoy,
the first time that I worked with Paolo, after
I worked with him also in Geneva, when he called
me back. So you worked with him in Tuscany and
in Switzerland? Yes, we are friends almost 10
years, 10, 11 years, that we know each other.
I was working with him when he opened his first
restaurant in Geneva, that was in 2015. And we
got together the first mission started there
after four months that we opened. Also, the project
started like traditional Italian food. And after
step by step, we had also a very good team. So
we say, OK, why not? Let's try to push to do
it better, every day better, better to create
some details in the service, in the food. Different
plating, different product, different technique.
And at the end, after just four months, we got
the mission started. And we opened another restaurant
over there in Geneva. And at the end of 2016,
I said, less or more. I remember that Paolo,
he left to come back in Spain. He decided to
leave to come back in Italy. I worked for nine
months, less or more. in florence and after i
have been to do an experience in copenhagen i
have been in geranium that was a trinitian style
how was how how was geranium that's also like
a like a legendary place for me it was amazing
i mean i followed the love because i have after
my experience that i worked in switzerland i
had the opportunity to to go to it there And
when I've been there, I don't know how to describe
it, but I find the place was amazing. I mean,
for me, it was the second time I was going to
a three -mission -star restaurant. But I fell
in love for the quality of the service, the attention
of the waiters, the chef, the presentation, the
quality of the food. It was like to stay... at
home because the service was really cordial it
was a really friendly service and you say wow
i'm eating the three mission star but i can feel
like at home no you know it's not you can go
in some place that uh a bit more old you're gonna
see it's too formal right like two exactly yeah
two former white clothes and over there was uh
really young stuff really really young stuff
i think that's a that's a copenhagen style in
fine dining It's very loose, very casual, but
super professional. Yeah, excellent. So I tried
for two years and a half, I remember, to go there
in the stash. But it was always full, always
full, always full. And after when I had the possibility,
I decided to move there. Because after Florence,
I have been to work next to Arezzo, you know,
the small boutique hotel. I worked there like
sous chef. I did just the season because after
they called me from Germany, I said, okay, I
cannot lose this opportunity. And I have been
there to do four months, five months, and some
more. Okay. It was one of the best experiences
that I have ever had. You mentioned that that
was your second Michelin star, but you mean to
eat or to work? No, no, to eat, to eat, to eat.
Okay, which was the first one? Yes, no, it was
the second one. I have been also in Italy, that
was Bottura. It was always good, but the feeling
they found there was, I don't know, completely
different. And what, you didn't like it so much?
No, I like it. Some dishes more, some dishes
not too much. But when I have been over in Geranium,
it was also a different concept for me. I like
to try different flavors, different ingredients.
different cooking style. I don't have a close
mind, so I like to try a lot of different products.
So for me, this was the first time also for the
Nordic cuisine. Incredible. I think Copenhagen
is an amazing city. Yeah, it was just not the
beginning, but now it's amazing. One of the best
cities, I think, like with Tokyo, Tokyo and Copenhagen.
It's difficult to compare because... The level
is really, really high. All the restaurants,
everything that you can find in Copenhagen, it's
amazing. It can be a pizza, it can be a taco.
I also like to travel. I have been also in Mexico.
And when I have been in Copenhagen, I found my
best Mexican food and tacos. It was like to be
in the state of Mexico, but I was in Copenhagen.
It was minus 10 degrees, but it was really, really
traditional Mexican food. Amazing. And I think
it was a really nice city, yeah. I really like
Doña Chepina here in San Sebastian. Have you
been there? Yeah. I have been there a few times.
Yeah, it's a nice one. I think it's the most
traditional and realistic Mexican food. So, and
then you came, when did you come to San Sebastian
to work with Paolo? In 2021. Okay, directly to
Amelia. Yeah, directly to him. I was working
as a security chef always in Arezzo because before
I was working in this place that was called Badia
di Pomaglio. I worked there one season as a chef
and after I left to do the trial and the stage
in Granio and after they called me back to be
the chef over there. We did a really nice season
with a rich and nice step at the end of the season.
And after Paolo called me back, basically, literally,
he called me, what are you fucking doing over
there? Come back to work together. This was already
the new Amelia, right? Yes, it was the new Amelia.
And how was your experience? How did you scale
up into the position of executive chef? I started
like a head chef with another guy that was working
there. After he left and step by step, Paolo
gave me more responsibility, more things to follow.
But like you said before, I like to try to also
for me to do always better. That can be try to
make a plate or to listen to the people saying
to understand also to study for the wine, for
example. I also love the wines. I'm not sommelier,
of course. I like to try also different things.
It's not only kitchen. So step by step, when
we started to build a really strong team in Amelia,
we got the second mission star over there. And
I started to have also more responsibility. The
supervising, for example, of Bangkok over there.
And Florence, because we have a restaurant also
in Florida that we opened one year and a half
with Paolo over there. So supporting the team
with the Chef Luigi in Hong Kong, because he
worked with me. I was the stager of Chef Luigi,
and now it's a two mission star there. And I
called him here to be part of the Meller Group.
And then that's it. Incredible. And how many
cooks are you at Amelia right now? Actually,
we are 11. Okay. But with interns and everything,
the whole team? No, we don't have interns, we
don't have staggers because the restaurant is
a small restaurant. We don't have the possibility
to have staggers for this. And also because,
honestly, we are pushing for the three -mission
start. I can understand it can be a bit not nice
to say, but we actually don't have the time to
have people that don't know. Of course, I understand.
Of course, the guests are paying a nice price
for the menu and for the experience. So everything
must be not perfectly, more than perfectly, if
it's possible. So at the end, we saw that the
people coming in stage didn't have the possibility
to see a lot of things because they are not able
to touch many products. So I also can understand
if I go to do a stage in a place, but it depends.
Sometimes we had also some very good stages,
but actually it's really sad to say, but the
kitchen is changing. I think a big difference
is showing up after the COVID. So we had a lot
of people that want to come like a stager, but
they don't want to see the simple things like
they're going to call them. I don't want to peel
the asparagus because I want to see how you cook
it. Yeah, exactly. And I think it's a process,
step by step from the beginning. You cannot start
to enter in the kitchen to say, I want to do
this. Because when I use a lobster that I'm paying
like 50 euro for kilo, if you break the lobster,
or we are working with the king crab that's 125
kilo, if you clean the king crab not properly,
and we're going to find a shell in the plates
of the guest, what I can say to the guest, oh,
sorry, it was the stagia. Of course, yeah. It's
not working in Amelia. Yeah, I went to Amelia,
to the old Amelia, before COVID. And I remember
Paolo saying back then, like, well, I'm going
to get the second star. This is the reason I
opened this place for. And he was completely
positive about it. I was really happy when he
got it. I also went to... Da Filippo. To Da Filippo.
Da Filippo. Yeah, I think it's the best Italian
in town, for sure. And, yeah, like... Very, very
fine menu. Something that is interesting about
Pablo, I think he's the only star chef in the
region that is not related to the new Basque
cuisine movement. Because every chef here is
directly or indirectly related to the original
14 chefs of the new Basque cuisine. Yes. Either
they learned with them or someone who learned
with them. And it's a clear progression. And
Pablo just came with a... with an airplane direct
to the, with an helicopter. Yeah. In this case,
San Sebastian is quite similar to Copenhagen.
Like we said before, a lot of people or a lot
of chefs that open restaurant there, work there,
was working or pass through to the stage from
the Noma. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. 90 % of them.
Yeah. You go to eat hot dogs and it was an ex
-sous chef from Noma in Copenhagen. Yeah. Exactly.
But also like, I wouldn't know how to define
Pablo's cuisine. Because maybe French, Italian,
Argentinian, how would you describe it? For me,
to describe it, it's the best product, and to
try to use the best product, doesn't matter where
it's coming from. It can be coming from France,
from Spain, from Italy, from Japan as well, because
we are importing also a lot of products from
Japan, for example. but the best quality of the
food that you can serve. What are your star products
right now that you're serving? We have only one
menu. It's only a blind menu with 15 courses.
We have a bit of Italian culture, like before
the pasta. We have a lot of Japanese and Asiatic
influence in our menu. We're using a lot of...
vinegar citrus some leaves for example we have
a kind of leaves that a lot of guests really
enjoy that's called kinome it's basically it's
a kind it's the leaf of the sancho pepper that's
typical from asia it's a bit balsamic with a
pepper flavor it's strange for a lot of them
But it's particular. It's complex in the flavor
that we're going to serve in this case with the
chawanmushi. Chawanmushi, for example, is not
Italian. It's not French at all. Not French for
sure. It's only Japanese. Yeah, it's like a dashi
flan kind of, right? Exactly. It's a kind of
flan. We have our interpretation. We're going
to serve with, for example, in this moment, we
have some tirpies that's coming from the Great
Area. So we try to mix the culture. Of course,
we have also some French technique. We use a
lot of butter, cream, creme fraiche. By the end,
I think every culture have a different identity
of the cuisine. For example, in the French style
cuisine, they use a lot of butter. And I mean,
some sauce are really, really tasty, really nice.
Without butter, you cannot do it. So it's simple.
Sometimes, like a joke, I say to the guys, guys,
the butter is love. Absolutely. I'm Italian.
So in Italy, we use more the oil, olive oil in
this case. Also in our restaurant, we serve an
extra virgin olive oil that is coming from Tuscany.
But we have some, for some preparation, you cannot
try to do it because it's like this and like
this. It was like this for many, many years.
You can try to do something similar, but you
cannot reach the same level. And my last question.
What advice would you give to someone that maybe
is 20 years old and thinks it's too late to start
cooking? No, my advice, like I say many times,
also to... Still, we had some stagia, or for
example, also in the team, in Amelia team, we
have... very, very young guys. I mean, they call
me the grandpa because I'm 34 now. And a lot
of them are 21, 22, 24. And I try to be honest
with them. Sometimes I can be also rude, I know.
But I want to be honest with them. I mean, actually,
I saw a lot of people also that, for example,
are applying for a position. I did a stage six
months. It's a three -mission stage. I worked
for one year. Okay, what do you want to be? I
want to be the sous -chef of Amelia. It's not
because it's Amelia, but I think also for the
other reason. I never send the application for
a position if I'm not sure. I mean, I started
to be sous -chef after six, seven years, less
or more. But I already saw different culture,
different technique. Now we have a lot of people.
Maybe what is evolving is changing. But a lot
of people, really young people, coming and asking
for strange position that is not possible to
give them. No, I don't want to see this. I want
to see already... The protein, for example, in
La Melia, only the responsible are going to touch
the protein. Only the sous chef and the head
chef, sometimes me, they're able to touch the
protein, but not because we don't want to teach
them. Because it's a product at a really high
price, and we cannot fuck the product because
you're not able to work it. So sometimes I talk
to the guys, okay, guys, if you're going to push,
you have the time, you're going to stay with
us. I'm going to clean the product or the sous
-chef is going to be there in that moment. And
you can see how to do it. But I cannot put you
to clean a fish or to clean a tar boat, a pigeon
or a duck or something. And you don't know even
how to do a brouhaha. Yeah, absolutely. I think
the people lost the culture of the food. I understand
that. Before, in the past, it was difficult to
work in the kitchen. Still now, I don't say that
now it is. If you don't have the passion, you
cannot do this job. And this is one of the things
that everyone is repeating. But if you don't
have the passion, better to change this job.
Because you have to work when the people are
resting. You don't have the holidays when the
people are on holidays. You start in the morning,
you finish in the night. In winter, you start
at night because you wake up really early and
you finish at night. So you never see the sun,
basically. In Amelia, we work just like this.
In Amelia, we work four days. We have three days
off that we are lucky. But when we are there,
we push from the early morning to the late night,
from the beginning to the end. I see a lot of
people asking, okay, but I would like to have
the Sunday off. Two weeks is my birthday. I never
started like this. I do also the interview, not
only for Amelia, for the other restaurants. Of
course, different profiles, so don't have to
be always only for Amelia. But when people are
coming and start to say, okay, I would like to
have two weeks in August, but I would like to
start to work now. Of course. Okay, let's see.
I would like to have the Sunday off and salary
1 ,900. Okay, that's right. Can you do a Brunoise?
What is Brunoise? I think it's a generational
problem in general. A change of the generation.
Well, Giacomo, thank you very much. Nice to have
you here. Thank you so much. That's it for this
week's episode of Potluck Food Talks. If you
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