WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.320 You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Hi, 00:00:07.320 --> 00:00:12.820 everyone. Welcome to Potluck Food Talks. Today, 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:16.920 we have a special guest, Giacomo Zanni. He's 00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:18.800 an Italian chef working here in San Sebastian. 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:21.500 Welcome, Giacomo. How are you doing? Thank you. 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:24.140 Thank you. Very good. Thank you. Thank you for 00:00:24.140 --> 00:00:28.949 the invitation. And let's start right here. Did 00:00:28.949 --> 00:00:33.469 you grow up in Firenze, in Tuscany? Yes, yes. 00:00:33.630 --> 00:00:38.369 I was born in Florence in 1991. I started my 00:00:38.369 --> 00:00:43.750 career, I did just cooking courses, if you can 00:00:43.750 --> 00:00:46.890 say like this, just a few, really few months. 00:00:47.049 --> 00:00:52.850 And I started to work in a canteen in a pharmaceutical 00:00:52.850 --> 00:00:57.409 company. I mean, I started from the beginning 00:00:57.409 --> 00:01:00.890 of the beginning, peeling potato, cleaning salad, 00:01:01.250 --> 00:01:05.930 preparing the food for like 400 people, something 00:01:05.930 --> 00:01:08.709 like this. And after I said step by step, I did 00:01:08.709 --> 00:01:12.290 my experience in different places, different 00:01:12.290 --> 00:01:15.730 kind of cuisine, different level, of course, 00:01:15.810 --> 00:01:21.420 and different country also. And that's it. I 00:01:21.420 --> 00:01:24.579 visited the Tuscany once. I was in Firenze, in 00:01:24.579 --> 00:01:29.599 Siena, in Montalcino with incredible wines. Yeah, 00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:32.379 it was beautiful. Lucca also, yeah, beautiful 00:01:32.379 --> 00:01:36.659 cities. You kind of breathe gastronomy in the 00:01:36.659 --> 00:01:38.920 region. Like everything is just delicious there. 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:42.459 The produce is amazing. Yeah, you can have a 00:01:42.459 --> 00:01:46.040 different variety of restaurants from the more 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:49.799 traditional, really... trattoria osteria style 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:52.980 like you're gonna say in italian from the gastronomic 00:01:52.980 --> 00:01:56.480 one but i think also it's not only two scanning 00:01:56.480 --> 00:01:59.620 you have a general italy it's a country that's 00:01:59.620 --> 00:02:04.150 famous i mean for the food of course And for 00:02:04.150 --> 00:02:06.530 the variety of the ingredients that you can find 00:02:06.530 --> 00:02:10.330 there from the north to the south of Italy, you 00:02:10.330 --> 00:02:13.909 can have a very big variety of vegetables, fruit, 00:02:14.150 --> 00:02:18.030 meat, fish. We have a lot of different cultures 00:02:18.030 --> 00:02:21.250 coming from a different history of every region. 00:02:21.689 --> 00:02:25.750 It's really nice to sometimes when you can find 00:02:25.750 --> 00:02:29.389 also... the same product, but work in a different 00:02:29.389 --> 00:02:32.889 way. So you can find, for example, a typical 00:02:32.889 --> 00:02:36.270 particular recipe that is coming from Tuscany. 00:02:36.830 --> 00:02:40.189 You can move 300 kilometers, a bit more on the 00:02:40.189 --> 00:02:42.430 south, you're going to come in Rome. And they 00:02:42.430 --> 00:02:45.530 have something similar, but with a Romanian touch. 00:02:45.909 --> 00:02:48.229 It's really, really nice, interesting. Yeah, 00:02:48.250 --> 00:02:51.289 I remember my friend John Regevalk, who lived 00:02:51.289 --> 00:02:55.530 for a long time in Rome. I asked him, if the 00:02:55.530 --> 00:02:57.789 Bolognese should have red wine or white wine. 00:02:57.909 --> 00:03:01.349 And he said, it depends on the grandmother. But 00:03:01.349 --> 00:03:04.349 mostly it's like this. I mean, I know that in 00:03:04.349 --> 00:03:08.189 the first recipe, there should be also a bit 00:03:08.189 --> 00:03:11.669 of milk. Yeah, correct. Now, if you're going 00:03:11.669 --> 00:03:13.449 to ask the people, when you say to them, ah, 00:03:13.490 --> 00:03:15.669 you should put milk, the people are looking at 00:03:15.669 --> 00:03:17.830 you like, what are you fucking saying? Yeah, 00:03:18.330 --> 00:03:20.550 milk to the Bolognese, yeah, but it's the original 00:03:20.550 --> 00:03:26.060 one. Exactly. But the most recipes are coming 00:03:26.060 --> 00:03:29.180 from the grandmother. So my grandmother was putting 00:03:29.180 --> 00:03:31.819 the tomato paste. My grandmother was putting 00:03:31.819 --> 00:03:38.060 the fresh tomato, tomato passata, wet wine, red 00:03:38.060 --> 00:03:42.300 wine. You have a very, very quantity of different 00:03:42.300 --> 00:03:45.139 tradition. When did you decide to become a chef? 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:48.199 Or is it something that evolved organically? 00:03:48.300 --> 00:03:51.490 How did that happen? No, like I say, I started 00:03:51.490 --> 00:03:58.430 in 2012, 2013. I decided, I talked with my boss, 00:03:58.590 --> 00:04:01.069 the ex -boss, the owner of this architect studio 00:04:01.069 --> 00:04:04.210 that was also friends. And I remember that one 00:04:04.210 --> 00:04:06.409 day he called me in the office and he told me, 00:04:06.610 --> 00:04:09.830 I see you that you are not happy, Giacomo. He 00:04:09.830 --> 00:04:16.589 was a really big family. I know him when I was 00:04:16.589 --> 00:04:19.699 like four years old. And I told to him, yes, 00:04:19.819 --> 00:04:24.759 I like it, but I'm not enjoying. And he told 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:27.279 me, do you think you have something more that 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:29.000 you would like to do, you would like to try? 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:32.680 And I told to him, I like to cook, I like to 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:36.759 eat, but I don't know if I'm in time. This was 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:40.500 my problem. And he told me, I remember, he told 00:04:40.500 --> 00:04:44.339 me, listen, you are 20 years old. How you can 00:04:44.339 --> 00:04:47.560 say you are not in time to be something? to be 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:51.920 a chef, to be a dentist, to be whatever you want. 00:04:52.860 --> 00:04:55.879 And after this, I decided to talk with my parents. 00:04:56.959 --> 00:04:59.019 And they said, OK, I think I'm going to leave 00:04:59.019 --> 00:05:04.259 this job. And let's see. I'm going to try. And 00:05:04.259 --> 00:05:06.639 I don't have nothing to lose. I'm going to try. 00:05:07.139 --> 00:05:10.699 You can spend six months, one year. And after 00:05:10.699 --> 00:05:12.160 this, you can see if it's going to work or it's 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:14.720 not going to work. And how did you evolve from 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:19.100 this canteen where you started into more, I wouldn't 00:05:19.100 --> 00:05:22.819 say professional, but maybe more elevated, high 00:05:22.819 --> 00:05:28.459 -end kitchens? With a lot of passion, passion. 00:05:31.319 --> 00:05:35.180 I remember we started in the canteen doing stage, 00:05:35.300 --> 00:05:38.680 stage, and stage, working a lot of hours, looking. 00:05:39.610 --> 00:05:43.949 I think also when I have some new guys in Amelia, 00:05:44.089 --> 00:05:47.170 one of the other groups that we're going to have 00:05:47.170 --> 00:05:52.310 with Paolo, I talk to them. It's not exactly 00:05:52.310 --> 00:05:55.029 that if you are working in a section, you cannot 00:05:55.029 --> 00:05:58.350 see what the other people are doing. I mean, 00:05:58.389 --> 00:06:00.329 for me, it was like this. I was working, doing 00:06:00.329 --> 00:06:05.470 something, but I was trying to understand all 00:06:05.470 --> 00:06:08.089 the other processes that also my colleagues are... 00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:12.199 Was doing, no? I mean, to see, to try to steal 00:06:12.199 --> 00:06:17.199 everything that you can. The technique, the color, 00:06:17.500 --> 00:06:20.800 all the knowledge that you don't know. I was 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:23.300 trying to steal from everything, everywhere. 00:06:23.899 --> 00:06:28.800 And the end, I started like this. Step by step, 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:31.420 I started to work in the hotels and after in 00:06:31.420 --> 00:06:35.240 a restaurant. After I came back in Tuscany, we 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:39.509 did the opening. of Mercato Centrale, that was 00:06:39.509 --> 00:06:43.509 another place where we were serving like 400 00:06:43.509 --> 00:06:47.670 guests per day. But it was already a better quality 00:06:47.670 --> 00:06:50.250 of food, if you can say like this. It was very, 00:06:50.389 --> 00:06:54.550 very good stuff. The chef was amazing. And after 00:06:54.550 --> 00:06:59.029 that, step by step, because I wanted to do extra. 00:06:59.230 --> 00:07:01.089 In Florence, we have the fourth season, for example. 00:07:01.689 --> 00:07:04.730 So my ex -chef that was working there in Mercato 00:07:04.730 --> 00:07:06.970 Centrale was in touch with the chef that was 00:07:06.970 --> 00:07:09.689 working in the fourth season. And I stayed like 00:07:09.689 --> 00:07:14.269 almost one year doing extra. So when I had the 00:07:14.269 --> 00:07:18.189 day off in this job, I was working in the fourth 00:07:18.189 --> 00:07:20.949 season. Because over there was a different concept. 00:07:21.110 --> 00:07:23.610 It was a Michelin star restaurant. It was also 00:07:23.610 --> 00:07:26.610 banqueting sometimes, but it was another level. 00:07:26.870 --> 00:07:30.959 I mean, it was a luxury level. something that 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:33.600 I never saw before so I wanted to learn from 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:37.199 everything to do like a scrambled egg that can 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:40.699 be an omelette or like to be to cook a perfection 00:07:40.699 --> 00:07:45.620 one piece of meat or a whole fish or like to 00:07:45.620 --> 00:07:48.740 do a brunoise a perfect brunoise like over there 00:07:48.740 --> 00:07:51.519 I start to see some standards if you can say 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:55.040 like this and was something that I really enjoyed 00:07:55.040 --> 00:07:59.689 I say whoa it's nice I mean, I think I want to 00:07:59.689 --> 00:08:03.310 try to do this because it's not only that the 00:08:03.310 --> 00:08:08.269 food is better or is not good enough, but it's 00:08:08.269 --> 00:08:11.310 the standard. I started to learn also, I mean, 00:08:11.430 --> 00:08:16.269 my main chef actually, of course, is Paolo. I 00:08:16.269 --> 00:08:21.189 also met him the first time when I was in Tuscany. 00:08:21.290 --> 00:08:24.290 It was in Borgo Santo Pietro. I stayed there. 00:08:24.490 --> 00:08:27.540 It was a relationship, I remember. I didn't stay 00:08:27.540 --> 00:08:31.060 there a lot of time, to be honest, only a few 00:08:31.060 --> 00:08:34.539 weeks or like one month because I didn't find 00:08:34.539 --> 00:08:38.340 the agreement with the owner. But I just keep 00:08:38.340 --> 00:08:41.340 in touch with Paolo. Just to put that in context, 00:08:41.419 --> 00:08:43.500 because I didn't mention that at the beginning, 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:47.320 Giacomo is the executive chef at Amelia, which 00:08:47.320 --> 00:08:50.120 is a two Michelin star restaurant here. in San 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:52.240 Sebastian. And Paolo, the guy he's talking about 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:56.700 is Paolo Airaudo, who is the chef. He has like 00:08:56.700 --> 00:09:00.039 a little empire nowadays. He has like how many 00:09:00.039 --> 00:09:02.059 restaurants? Like seven restaurants, something 00:09:02.059 --> 00:09:06.759 like that. No, quite more. It's going to be 14 00:09:06.759 --> 00:09:09.679 or so more. We have a new opening coming. Yeah, 00:09:09.779 --> 00:09:12.360 we have a lot of restaurants here in San Sebastian. 00:09:13.019 --> 00:09:16.500 We are managing the kitchen of the hotel Villa 00:09:16.500 --> 00:09:19.759 Favorita. And after we have Ibai, that's Basque 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:22.059 country food, that's one Michelin star. Da Filippo, 00:09:22.059 --> 00:09:25.059 that's actually in the Michelin guide. We have 00:09:25.059 --> 00:09:29.059 Amelia. We have Cantina, that's a bit more Argentinian 00:09:29.059 --> 00:09:32.879 cooking style because Paul is half Italian and 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:37.559 half Argentinian. And after we are opening a 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:39.519 new restaurant that's going to be in Izakaya, 00:09:39.639 --> 00:09:42.139 so typical Japanese traditional food. Also in 00:09:42.139 --> 00:09:45.840 San Sebastian? Always in San Sebastian. It's 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:49.539 going to be in the same place where there was 00:09:49.539 --> 00:09:52.440 Bottega. It was Bottega with a different concept, 00:09:52.500 --> 00:09:57.139 more like traditional, some pincho, but also 00:09:57.139 --> 00:10:01.149 traditional Italian food. So we closed that one 00:10:01.149 --> 00:10:02.889 because it was too small. And we're going to 00:10:02.889 --> 00:10:05.830 open over there the Isakaya. And we are opening 00:10:05.830 --> 00:10:09.450 in one month or so more, a few weeks, the new 00:10:09.450 --> 00:10:11.750 Bottega. There's going to be really traditional 00:10:11.750 --> 00:10:15.889 Italian food from the north to the south. So 00:10:15.889 --> 00:10:19.590 fresh pasta, also pizza, of course, but from 00:10:19.590 --> 00:10:23.149 the dessert to the pasta to the risotto, really 00:10:23.149 --> 00:10:26.750 just simple snacks from the Italian tradition. 00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:30.700 And after there is Alea that's going to be in 00:10:30.700 --> 00:10:34.840 Barcelona, that's one mission star. We have Noi 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:38.100 in Hong Kong with Chef Luigi Troiano, that's 00:10:38.100 --> 00:10:40.940 going to be a two mission star. And we open in 00:10:40.940 --> 00:10:45.919 December another restaurant in Bangkok, in the 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:49.340 Empire Tower. In a few months, we are also to 00:10:49.340 --> 00:10:54.179 open in Chiang Mai. And in the same year, this 00:10:54.179 --> 00:10:57.639 year, we still don't know when, before September 00:10:57.639 --> 00:11:00.460 should be, you're going to go to open another 00:11:00.460 --> 00:11:04.559 gastronomic restaurant in Miami. And two restaurants 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:07.059 more over there are always in Miami, but still 00:11:07.059 --> 00:11:09.240 a project for the month. Okay, super nice, super 00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:11.840 nice. Yeah, I wanted to get to that later, but 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:14.759 it was nice to contact you. I've been to, I think, 00:11:14.940 --> 00:11:18.000 all of the restaurants. I went to the old Ibai. 00:11:18.139 --> 00:11:20.779 I didn't went to Paolo's Ibai, to the regional 00:11:20.779 --> 00:11:24.039 one. I have been to... Well, I've been to the 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:27.500 bar. I've been to the Pincho bar. And I think, 00:11:27.500 --> 00:11:30.740 yeah, I had the Russian salad and the tortilla 00:11:30.740 --> 00:11:33.559 was amazing. It was super, super nice. Yeah, 00:11:33.659 --> 00:11:36.940 yeah. Dubai is like a bus country concept, so 00:11:36.940 --> 00:11:40.539 we have a la barra, so the counter, but you can 00:11:40.539 --> 00:11:43.320 order some pincho or something like this. And 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:45.879 after we have also the restaurant that actually 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:48.259 they just got the transmission installed last 00:11:48.259 --> 00:11:51.620 year. Something interesting I think about that 00:11:51.620 --> 00:11:55.220 bar is that since, so just to put in context, 00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:58.399 Ibai was a traditional Basque restaurant that 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:01.240 was open for decades in San Sebastian and they 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:04.759 closed and Paulo opened it in collaboration with 00:12:04.759 --> 00:12:08.100 the ex -owner, right? The previous, yeah, exactly. 00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:10.980 Exactly, and now it's a place. But the interesting 00:12:10.980 --> 00:12:13.720 thing is that... That place was closed the whole 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:16.659 time during COVID because it was just closed. 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:19.419 It was closed before COVID. So when it reopened, 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:22.419 I think it's the only pincho bar that looks like 00:12:22.419 --> 00:12:24.899 bars looked before COVID, you know, without the 00:12:24.899 --> 00:12:27.759 glasses and without a lot of things. That's pretty 00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:31.700 cool. It was one of Paulo's favorite restaurants 00:12:31.700 --> 00:12:35.740 just before the COVID. So he has been many times 00:12:35.740 --> 00:12:38.039 over there. And after, of course, the COVID, 00:12:38.220 --> 00:12:40.440 they closed everything. But the idea was to don't 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:43.620 open it again. At the end, Paolo said, okay, 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:47.080 I think that was a really nice concept. It's 00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:50.600 a bit of a shame. Don't open it again. So let's 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:52.840 try. And I've tried it. It's working also. Yeah, 00:12:52.899 --> 00:12:55.460 and I've got a Michelin star because I've never 00:12:55.460 --> 00:12:57.919 got a star. I understand why. They were really 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:04.190 rude. The service was a bit more... More like 00:13:04.190 --> 00:13:07.669 we can say in Italy, Trattoria. Yeah, it was 00:13:07.669 --> 00:13:10.970 very honest. I went there with Shinobu Namae. 00:13:11.149 --> 00:13:14.210 When Shinobu Namae came to San Sebastian, I went 00:13:14.210 --> 00:13:15.929 to have lunch with him there. It was amazing. 00:13:16.250 --> 00:13:18.809 So how is it, since we're already talking about 00:13:18.809 --> 00:13:21.870 this whole thing about your job right now, how 00:13:21.870 --> 00:13:25.330 is your day -to -day in this restaurant group? 00:13:25.629 --> 00:13:28.690 Do you actively participate in all of the openings, 00:13:28.909 --> 00:13:32.289 in the development of the concepts? Yes. Like 00:13:32.289 --> 00:13:34.889 you said before, I'm the executive chef of Amelia, 00:13:35.090 --> 00:13:38.750 but I'm also helping with the new opening. For 00:13:38.750 --> 00:13:42.250 example, for Bangkok, I have been four times 00:13:42.250 --> 00:13:46.049 the first time for the previous opening. And 00:13:46.049 --> 00:13:48.950 after when we opened, I stayed also with one 00:13:48.950 --> 00:13:51.149 of the sous -chefs, with Mark, one of the sous 00:13:51.149 --> 00:13:54.389 -chefs of Amelia, with Richie, that's the head 00:13:54.389 --> 00:13:58.110 chef. So we closed Amelia last year, the 30th 00:13:58.110 --> 00:14:00.909 of November, and we have been all of three of 00:14:00.909 --> 00:14:04.340 us. for two weeks and a half, less or more three 00:14:04.340 --> 00:14:08.399 weeks there, to show to them which is our idea, 00:14:08.700 --> 00:14:12.779 Paolo's idea of the kitchen, the quality of the 00:14:12.779 --> 00:14:15.799 food, the quality of the service, and the most 00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:18.379 important things, like we said also before, the 00:14:18.379 --> 00:14:22.820 standard. I mean, what I really, really enjoy, 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:25.500 the first time that I worked with Paolo, after 00:14:25.500 --> 00:14:28.580 I worked with him also in Geneva, when he called 00:14:28.580 --> 00:14:31.120 me back. So you worked with him in Tuscany and 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:37.899 in Switzerland? Yes, we are friends almost 10 00:14:37.899 --> 00:14:41.580 years, 10, 11 years, that we know each other. 00:14:41.740 --> 00:14:44.139 I was working with him when he opened his first 00:14:44.139 --> 00:14:47.700 restaurant in Geneva, that was in 2015. And we 00:14:47.700 --> 00:14:50.500 got together the first mission started there 00:14:50.500 --> 00:14:55.399 after four months that we opened. Also, the project 00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:59.240 started like traditional Italian food. And after 00:14:59.240 --> 00:15:02.919 step by step, we had also a very good team. So 00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:05.960 we say, OK, why not? Let's try to push to do 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.059 it better, every day better, better to create 00:15:09.059 --> 00:15:13.019 some details in the service, in the food. Different 00:15:13.019 --> 00:15:15.639 plating, different product, different technique. 00:15:15.899 --> 00:15:20.059 And at the end, after just four months, we got 00:15:20.059 --> 00:15:23.299 the mission started. And we opened another restaurant 00:15:23.299 --> 00:15:30.259 over there in Geneva. And at the end of 2016, 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:33.159 I said, less or more. I remember that Paolo, 00:15:33.259 --> 00:15:36.759 he left to come back in Spain. He decided to 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:39.960 leave to come back in Italy. I worked for nine 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:44.320 months, less or more. in florence and after i 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:49.139 have been to do an experience in copenhagen i 00:15:49.139 --> 00:15:52.679 have been in geranium that was a trinitian style 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:56.399 how was how how was geranium that's also like 00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:00.500 a like a legendary place for me it was amazing 00:16:00.500 --> 00:16:04.960 i mean i followed the love because i have after 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:08.419 my experience that i worked in switzerland i 00:16:08.419 --> 00:16:12.120 had the opportunity to to go to it there And 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:15.419 when I've been there, I don't know how to describe 00:16:15.419 --> 00:16:18.799 it, but I find the place was amazing. I mean, 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:25.100 for me, it was the second time I was going to 00:16:25.100 --> 00:16:28.519 a three -mission -star restaurant. But I fell 00:16:28.519 --> 00:16:32.120 in love for the quality of the service, the attention 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:36.679 of the waiters, the chef, the presentation, the 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:40.840 quality of the food. It was like to stay... at 00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:43.039 home because the service was really cordial it 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:46.480 was a really friendly service and you say wow 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:49.840 i'm eating the three mission star but i can feel 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:53.000 like at home no you know it's not you can go 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:56.399 in some place that uh a bit more old you're gonna 00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:59.500 see it's too formal right like two exactly yeah 00:16:59.500 --> 00:17:02.919 two former white clothes and over there was uh 00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:05.700 really young stuff really really young stuff 00:17:05.700 --> 00:17:08.240 i think that's a that's a copenhagen style in 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:12.450 fine dining It's very loose, very casual, but 00:17:12.450 --> 00:17:15.910 super professional. Yeah, excellent. So I tried 00:17:15.910 --> 00:17:18.710 for two years and a half, I remember, to go there 00:17:18.710 --> 00:17:21.329 in the stash. But it was always full, always 00:17:21.329 --> 00:17:23.750 full, always full. And after when I had the possibility, 00:17:24.150 --> 00:17:28.450 I decided to move there. Because after Florence, 00:17:28.549 --> 00:17:31.470 I have been to work next to Arezzo, you know, 00:17:31.509 --> 00:17:34.869 the small boutique hotel. I worked there like 00:17:34.869 --> 00:17:39.140 sous chef. I did just the season because after 00:17:39.140 --> 00:17:41.819 they called me from Germany, I said, okay, I 00:17:41.819 --> 00:17:45.039 cannot lose this opportunity. And I have been 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:48.380 there to do four months, five months, and some 00:17:48.380 --> 00:17:51.660 more. Okay. It was one of the best experiences 00:17:51.660 --> 00:17:53.900 that I have ever had. You mentioned that that 00:17:53.900 --> 00:17:56.779 was your second Michelin star, but you mean to 00:17:56.779 --> 00:17:59.859 eat or to work? No, no, to eat, to eat, to eat. 00:17:59.859 --> 00:18:03.690 Okay, which was the first one? Yes, no, it was 00:18:03.690 --> 00:18:06.170 the second one. I have been also in Italy, that 00:18:06.170 --> 00:18:10.369 was Bottura. It was always good, but the feeling 00:18:10.369 --> 00:18:12.930 they found there was, I don't know, completely 00:18:12.930 --> 00:18:17.109 different. And what, you didn't like it so much? 00:18:18.349 --> 00:18:22.990 No, I like it. Some dishes more, some dishes 00:18:22.990 --> 00:18:26.490 not too much. But when I have been over in Geranium, 00:18:26.670 --> 00:18:29.009 it was also a different concept for me. I like 00:18:29.009 --> 00:18:31.549 to try different flavors, different ingredients. 00:18:32.490 --> 00:18:35.670 different cooking style. I don't have a close 00:18:35.670 --> 00:18:39.549 mind, so I like to try a lot of different products. 00:18:39.670 --> 00:18:42.390 So for me, this was the first time also for the 00:18:42.390 --> 00:18:45.029 Nordic cuisine. Incredible. I think Copenhagen 00:18:45.029 --> 00:18:48.630 is an amazing city. Yeah, it was just not the 00:18:48.630 --> 00:18:52.569 beginning, but now it's amazing. One of the best 00:18:52.569 --> 00:18:55.890 cities, I think, like with Tokyo, Tokyo and Copenhagen. 00:18:57.190 --> 00:18:59.829 It's difficult to compare because... The level 00:18:59.829 --> 00:19:01.950 is really, really high. All the restaurants, 00:19:02.069 --> 00:19:05.430 everything that you can find in Copenhagen, it's 00:19:05.430 --> 00:19:08.109 amazing. It can be a pizza, it can be a taco. 00:19:08.529 --> 00:19:11.069 I also like to travel. I have been also in Mexico. 00:19:11.289 --> 00:19:14.049 And when I have been in Copenhagen, I found my 00:19:14.049 --> 00:19:18.269 best Mexican food and tacos. It was like to be 00:19:18.269 --> 00:19:23.630 in the state of Mexico, but I was in Copenhagen. 00:19:23.710 --> 00:19:27.069 It was minus 10 degrees, but it was really, really 00:19:27.069 --> 00:19:31.390 traditional Mexican food. Amazing. And I think 00:19:31.390 --> 00:19:33.990 it was a really nice city, yeah. I really like 00:19:33.990 --> 00:19:36.410 Doña Chepina here in San Sebastian. Have you 00:19:36.410 --> 00:19:39.190 been there? Yeah. I have been there a few times. 00:19:39.250 --> 00:19:41.690 Yeah, it's a nice one. I think it's the most 00:19:41.690 --> 00:19:46.089 traditional and realistic Mexican food. So, and 00:19:46.089 --> 00:19:49.049 then you came, when did you come to San Sebastian 00:19:49.049 --> 00:19:54.750 to work with Paolo? In 2021. Okay, directly to 00:19:54.750 --> 00:19:58.450 Amelia. Yeah, directly to him. I was working 00:19:58.450 --> 00:20:04.329 as a security chef always in Arezzo because before 00:20:04.329 --> 00:20:07.190 I was working in this place that was called Badia 00:20:07.190 --> 00:20:09.990 di Pomaglio. I worked there one season as a chef 00:20:09.990 --> 00:20:13.349 and after I left to do the trial and the stage 00:20:13.349 --> 00:20:16.329 in Granio and after they called me back to be 00:20:16.329 --> 00:20:19.289 the chef over there. We did a really nice season 00:20:19.289 --> 00:20:26.799 with a rich and nice step at the end of the season. 00:20:26.980 --> 00:20:29.460 And after Paolo called me back, basically, literally, 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:31.119 he called me, what are you fucking doing over 00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:36.079 there? Come back to work together. This was already 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:39.660 the new Amelia, right? Yes, it was the new Amelia. 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:45.279 And how was your experience? How did you scale 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:50.640 up into the position of executive chef? I started 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:54.240 like a head chef with another guy that was working 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:57.490 there. After he left and step by step, Paolo 00:20:57.490 --> 00:21:00.930 gave me more responsibility, more things to follow. 00:21:01.309 --> 00:21:06.089 But like you said before, I like to try to also 00:21:06.089 --> 00:21:10.529 for me to do always better. That can be try to 00:21:10.529 --> 00:21:15.849 make a plate or to listen to the people saying 00:21:15.849 --> 00:21:19.690 to understand also to study for the wine, for 00:21:19.690 --> 00:21:23.339 example. I also love the wines. I'm not sommelier, 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:26.680 of course. I like to try also different things. 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:30.640 It's not only kitchen. So step by step, when 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:33.640 we started to build a really strong team in Amelia, 00:21:33.900 --> 00:21:36.980 we got the second mission star over there. And 00:21:36.980 --> 00:21:41.079 I started to have also more responsibility. The 00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:43.740 supervising, for example, of Bangkok over there. 00:21:44.940 --> 00:21:46.880 And Florence, because we have a restaurant also 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:49.380 in Florida that we opened one year and a half 00:21:49.380 --> 00:21:53.119 with Paolo over there. So supporting the team 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:57.359 with the Chef Luigi in Hong Kong, because he 00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:00.039 worked with me. I was the stager of Chef Luigi, 00:22:00.140 --> 00:22:03.460 and now it's a two mission star there. And I 00:22:03.460 --> 00:22:08.220 called him here to be part of the Meller Group. 00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:14.109 And then that's it. Incredible. And how many 00:22:14.109 --> 00:22:17.250 cooks are you at Amelia right now? Actually, 00:22:17.289 --> 00:22:22.490 we are 11. Okay. But with interns and everything, 00:22:22.630 --> 00:22:26.269 the whole team? No, we don't have interns, we 00:22:26.269 --> 00:22:29.529 don't have staggers because the restaurant is 00:22:29.529 --> 00:22:32.529 a small restaurant. We don't have the possibility 00:22:32.529 --> 00:22:36.210 to have staggers for this. And also because, 00:22:36.369 --> 00:22:39.269 honestly, we are pushing for the three -mission 00:22:39.269 --> 00:22:43.029 start. I can understand it can be a bit not nice 00:22:43.029 --> 00:22:47.329 to say, but we actually don't have the time to 00:22:47.329 --> 00:22:50.269 have people that don't know. Of course, I understand. 00:22:50.490 --> 00:22:53.809 Of course, the guests are paying a nice price 00:22:53.809 --> 00:22:57.250 for the menu and for the experience. So everything 00:22:57.250 --> 00:23:01.130 must be not perfectly, more than perfectly, if 00:23:01.130 --> 00:23:05.450 it's possible. So at the end, we saw that the 00:23:05.450 --> 00:23:08.630 people coming in stage didn't have the possibility 00:23:08.630 --> 00:23:12.279 to see a lot of things because they are not able 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:15.960 to touch many products. So I also can understand 00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:21.619 if I go to do a stage in a place, but it depends. 00:23:22.019 --> 00:23:25.400 Sometimes we had also some very good stages, 00:23:25.579 --> 00:23:29.400 but actually it's really sad to say, but the 00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:34.859 kitchen is changing. I think a big difference 00:23:34.859 --> 00:23:40.900 is showing up after the COVID. So we had a lot 00:23:40.900 --> 00:23:44.160 of people that want to come like a stager, but 00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:47.240 they don't want to see the simple things like 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:49.859 they're going to call them. I don't want to peel 00:23:49.859 --> 00:23:52.799 the asparagus because I want to see how you cook 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:58.660 it. Yeah, exactly. And I think it's a process, 00:23:58.779 --> 00:24:02.079 step by step from the beginning. You cannot start 00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:04.720 to enter in the kitchen to say, I want to do 00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:07.849 this. Because when I use a lobster that I'm paying 00:24:07.849 --> 00:24:11.170 like 50 euro for kilo, if you break the lobster, 00:24:11.289 --> 00:24:14.789 or we are working with the king crab that's 125 00:24:14.789 --> 00:24:19.329 kilo, if you clean the king crab not properly, 00:24:19.509 --> 00:24:21.329 and we're going to find a shell in the plates 00:24:21.329 --> 00:24:23.650 of the guest, what I can say to the guest, oh, 00:24:23.769 --> 00:24:26.569 sorry, it was the stagia. Of course, yeah. It's 00:24:26.569 --> 00:24:29.079 not working in Amelia. Yeah, I went to Amelia, 00:24:29.380 --> 00:24:32.240 to the old Amelia, before COVID. And I remember 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:36.500 Paolo saying back then, like, well, I'm going 00:24:36.500 --> 00:24:38.700 to get the second star. This is the reason I 00:24:38.700 --> 00:24:41.980 opened this place for. And he was completely 00:24:41.980 --> 00:24:44.920 positive about it. I was really happy when he 00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:48.140 got it. I also went to... Da Filippo. To Da Filippo. 00:24:48.140 --> 00:24:49.519 Da Filippo. Yeah, I think it's the best Italian 00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:54.400 in town, for sure. And, yeah, like... Very, very 00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:58.099 fine menu. Something that is interesting about 00:24:58.099 --> 00:25:01.819 Pablo, I think he's the only star chef in the 00:25:01.819 --> 00:25:05.099 region that is not related to the new Basque 00:25:05.099 --> 00:25:09.140 cuisine movement. Because every chef here is 00:25:09.140 --> 00:25:11.859 directly or indirectly related to the original 00:25:11.859 --> 00:25:15.859 14 chefs of the new Basque cuisine. Yes. Either 00:25:15.859 --> 00:25:18.460 they learned with them or someone who learned 00:25:18.460 --> 00:25:20.599 with them. And it's a clear progression. And 00:25:20.599 --> 00:25:24.180 Pablo just came with a... with an airplane direct 00:25:24.180 --> 00:25:27.839 to the, with an helicopter. Yeah. In this case, 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:29.740 San Sebastian is quite similar to Copenhagen. 00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:31.819 Like we said before, a lot of people or a lot 00:25:31.819 --> 00:25:34.400 of chefs that open restaurant there, work there, 00:25:34.460 --> 00:25:36.740 was working or pass through to the stage from 00:25:36.740 --> 00:25:39.680 the Noma. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. 90 % of them. 00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:42.059 Yeah. You go to eat hot dogs and it was an ex 00:25:42.059 --> 00:25:44.819 -sous chef from Noma in Copenhagen. Yeah. Exactly. 00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:48.720 But also like, I wouldn't know how to define 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:54.240 Pablo's cuisine. Because maybe French, Italian, 00:25:54.359 --> 00:26:00.480 Argentinian, how would you describe it? For me, 00:26:00.519 --> 00:26:04.299 to describe it, it's the best product, and to 00:26:04.299 --> 00:26:07.119 try to use the best product, doesn't matter where 00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:09.519 it's coming from. It can be coming from France, 00:26:09.700 --> 00:26:12.680 from Spain, from Italy, from Japan as well, because 00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:14.779 we are importing also a lot of products from 00:26:14.779 --> 00:26:18.680 Japan, for example. but the best quality of the 00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:21.500 food that you can serve. What are your star products 00:26:21.500 --> 00:26:24.480 right now that you're serving? We have only one 00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:29.740 menu. It's only a blind menu with 15 courses. 00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:34.519 We have a bit of Italian culture, like before 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:38.460 the pasta. We have a lot of Japanese and Asiatic 00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:41.140 influence in our menu. We're using a lot of... 00:26:41.919 --> 00:26:46.180 vinegar citrus some leaves for example we have 00:26:46.180 --> 00:26:48.339 a kind of leaves that a lot of guests really 00:26:48.339 --> 00:26:52.180 enjoy that's called kinome it's basically it's 00:26:52.180 --> 00:26:55.240 a kind it's the leaf of the sancho pepper that's 00:26:55.240 --> 00:26:58.400 typical from asia it's a bit balsamic with a 00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:02.079 pepper flavor it's strange for a lot of them 00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:06.039 But it's particular. It's complex in the flavor 00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:07.559 that we're going to serve in this case with the 00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:10.140 chawanmushi. Chawanmushi, for example, is not 00:27:10.140 --> 00:27:12.759 Italian. It's not French at all. Not French for 00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:16.920 sure. It's only Japanese. Yeah, it's like a dashi 00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:19.799 flan kind of, right? Exactly. It's a kind of 00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:21.799 flan. We have our interpretation. We're going 00:27:21.799 --> 00:27:24.579 to serve with, for example, in this moment, we 00:27:24.579 --> 00:27:27.579 have some tirpies that's coming from the Great 00:27:27.579 --> 00:27:31.079 Area. So we try to mix the culture. Of course, 00:27:31.099 --> 00:27:35.839 we have also some French technique. We use a 00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:40.420 lot of butter, cream, creme fraiche. By the end, 00:27:40.420 --> 00:27:44.660 I think every culture have a different identity 00:27:44.660 --> 00:27:49.359 of the cuisine. For example, in the French style 00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:53.279 cuisine, they use a lot of butter. And I mean, 00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:58.279 some sauce are really, really tasty, really nice. 00:27:59.629 --> 00:28:04.670 Without butter, you cannot do it. So it's simple. 00:28:05.049 --> 00:28:07.930 Sometimes, like a joke, I say to the guys, guys, 00:28:08.029 --> 00:28:11.269 the butter is love. Absolutely. I'm Italian. 00:28:11.490 --> 00:28:14.210 So in Italy, we use more the oil, olive oil in 00:28:14.210 --> 00:28:16.529 this case. Also in our restaurant, we serve an 00:28:16.529 --> 00:28:18.450 extra virgin olive oil that is coming from Tuscany. 00:28:18.849 --> 00:28:22.130 But we have some, for some preparation, you cannot 00:28:22.130 --> 00:28:25.130 try to do it because it's like this and like 00:28:25.130 --> 00:28:27.470 this. It was like this for many, many years. 00:28:28.109 --> 00:28:31.349 You can try to do something similar, but you 00:28:31.349 --> 00:28:34.049 cannot reach the same level. And my last question. 00:28:34.910 --> 00:28:38.630 What advice would you give to someone that maybe 00:28:38.630 --> 00:28:41.950 is 20 years old and thinks it's too late to start 00:28:41.950 --> 00:28:47.529 cooking? No, my advice, like I say many times, 00:28:47.690 --> 00:28:52.190 also to... Still, we had some stagia, or for 00:28:52.190 --> 00:28:55.130 example, also in the team, in Amelia team, we 00:28:55.130 --> 00:28:58.930 have... very, very young guys. I mean, they call 00:28:58.930 --> 00:29:02.349 me the grandpa because I'm 34 now. And a lot 00:29:02.349 --> 00:29:08.869 of them are 21, 22, 24. And I try to be honest 00:29:08.869 --> 00:29:11.490 with them. Sometimes I can be also rude, I know. 00:29:11.690 --> 00:29:14.670 But I want to be honest with them. I mean, actually, 00:29:14.809 --> 00:29:17.789 I saw a lot of people also that, for example, 00:29:17.910 --> 00:29:22.599 are applying for a position. I did a stage six 00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:24.759 months. It's a three -mission stage. I worked 00:29:24.759 --> 00:29:26.960 for one year. Okay, what do you want to be? I 00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:30.480 want to be the sous -chef of Amelia. It's not 00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:33.259 because it's Amelia, but I think also for the 00:29:33.259 --> 00:29:37.059 other reason. I never send the application for 00:29:37.059 --> 00:29:40.119 a position if I'm not sure. I mean, I started 00:29:40.119 --> 00:29:44.359 to be sous -chef after six, seven years, less 00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:47.140 or more. But I already saw different culture, 00:29:47.339 --> 00:29:49.740 different technique. Now we have a lot of people. 00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:54.980 Maybe what is evolving is changing. But a lot 00:29:54.980 --> 00:29:58.660 of people, really young people, coming and asking 00:29:58.660 --> 00:30:02.619 for strange position that is not possible to 00:30:02.619 --> 00:30:05.640 give them. No, I don't want to see this. I want 00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:08.900 to see already... The protein, for example, in 00:30:08.900 --> 00:30:11.619 La Melia, only the responsible are going to touch 00:30:11.619 --> 00:30:13.980 the protein. Only the sous chef and the head 00:30:13.980 --> 00:30:16.799 chef, sometimes me, they're able to touch the 00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:18.799 protein, but not because we don't want to teach 00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:23.599 them. Because it's a product at a really high 00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:27.720 price, and we cannot fuck the product because 00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:31.200 you're not able to work it. So sometimes I talk 00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:32.900 to the guys, okay, guys, if you're going to push, 00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:35.680 you have the time, you're going to stay with 00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:38.950 us. I'm going to clean the product or the sous 00:30:38.950 --> 00:30:41.630 -chef is going to be there in that moment. And 00:30:41.630 --> 00:30:45.130 you can see how to do it. But I cannot put you 00:30:45.130 --> 00:30:49.529 to clean a fish or to clean a tar boat, a pigeon 00:30:49.529 --> 00:30:52.430 or a duck or something. And you don't know even 00:30:52.430 --> 00:30:57.089 how to do a brouhaha. Yeah, absolutely. I think 00:30:57.089 --> 00:31:00.349 the people lost the culture of the food. I understand 00:31:00.349 --> 00:31:05.150 that. Before, in the past, it was difficult to 00:31:05.150 --> 00:31:06.829 work in the kitchen. Still now, I don't say that 00:31:06.829 --> 00:31:08.829 now it is. If you don't have the passion, you 00:31:08.829 --> 00:31:12.730 cannot do this job. And this is one of the things 00:31:12.730 --> 00:31:14.569 that everyone is repeating. But if you don't 00:31:14.569 --> 00:31:16.930 have the passion, better to change this job. 00:31:17.150 --> 00:31:20.210 Because you have to work when the people are 00:31:20.210 --> 00:31:22.329 resting. You don't have the holidays when the 00:31:22.329 --> 00:31:25.250 people are on holidays. You start in the morning, 00:31:25.390 --> 00:31:28.390 you finish in the night. In winter, you start 00:31:28.390 --> 00:31:34.630 at night because you wake up really early and 00:31:34.630 --> 00:31:36.470 you finish at night. So you never see the sun, 00:31:36.509 --> 00:31:39.990 basically. In Amelia, we work just like this. 00:31:40.089 --> 00:31:42.450 In Amelia, we work four days. We have three days 00:31:42.450 --> 00:31:44.849 off that we are lucky. But when we are there, 00:31:45.430 --> 00:31:48.990 we push from the early morning to the late night, 00:31:49.150 --> 00:31:52.890 from the beginning to the end. I see a lot of 00:31:52.890 --> 00:31:54.849 people asking, okay, but I would like to have 00:31:54.849 --> 00:32:00.750 the Sunday off. Two weeks is my birthday. I never 00:32:00.750 --> 00:32:05.130 started like this. I do also the interview, not 00:32:05.130 --> 00:32:08.670 only for Amelia, for the other restaurants. Of 00:32:08.670 --> 00:32:11.569 course, different profiles, so don't have to 00:32:11.569 --> 00:32:14.869 be always only for Amelia. But when people are 00:32:14.869 --> 00:32:17.589 coming and start to say, okay, I would like to 00:32:17.589 --> 00:32:20.029 have two weeks in August, but I would like to 00:32:20.029 --> 00:32:23.230 start to work now. Of course. Okay, let's see. 00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:27.140 I would like to have the Sunday off and salary 00:32:27.140 --> 00:32:30.640 1 ,900. Okay, that's right. Can you do a Brunoise? 00:32:30.700 --> 00:32:38.099 What is Brunoise? I think it's a generational 00:32:38.099 --> 00:32:43.140 problem in general. A change of the generation. 00:32:44.460 --> 00:32:47.220 Well, Giacomo, thank you very much. Nice to have 00:32:47.220 --> 00:32:53.279 you here. Thank you so much. That's it for this 00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:55.940 week's episode of Potluck Food Talks. If you 00:32:55.940 --> 00:32:57.859 like what we're doing, make sure to subscribe 00:32:57.859 --> 00:33:00.119 to the podcast so you never miss an episode. 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:02.579 You can also find us on Instagram and TikTok 00:33:02.579 --> 00:33:06.079 as Potluck Food Talks. The show airs every Monday.