You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Hi
everyone, welcome to Potluck Food Talks. I'm
here with Hattori Hanzo, the tuna fish master.
Phil Walter, and we're going to talk about, wait
for it, tuna. Hey. Nice one, how are you doing?
Good, man. Good, good, good. Summer is great.
Good old walking around in the city, eating new
pinchos. And I became a member of a society,
which is quite an achievement. That's Alpha Basque
Passport. That's amazing. Congratulations. That's
not an easy thing to do. It's like a secret society.
Yeah, like there are always these long wait lists.
But somehow, you know, I saw the opportunity.
I was like, who is it? the president of this
sociedad because a friend became a member so
I called right away and it lasted like for a
week and apparently they kicked someone out for
me to get in and so I started for people who
don't know a sociedad which is the way it's called
here in Guipúzcoa in the Biscay area of the Basque
Country they call it choco like chocolate which
means like little corner. And it's basically
a supper club. So people get together there to
cook, only members. Up until not long ago, it
was only men in the kitchen. The Sociedad that
I became a member, they changed that three years
ago only. That's crazy. But there are still many,
especially like all over the Basque Country,
where women are not allowed in the kitchen. But
it seems like, you know, like it's like a tradition,
like women are cooked at home in many cases.
So in a society, they will be just catered. And
that's the idea behind it. The thing is, nobody
asked women if they agreed with that. That's
the thing, yeah. That's the thing, yeah. Hey,
you know, in a Sociedad, is there a sort of,
like, dress code? Or can you come however you
want? Or is it kind of expected to dress up a
little bit? No, no, no. Okay. This is very important
because Sociedad, like, you know, they appear
in an Anthony Bonet and San Sebastian episode
and in some other things. There is this romanticism
around them. People feel like these are secret
societies where people go to debate about the
origin of parsley. And that's not it. As you
do. It's like a social club. Actually, the sociedad
is more important than the gastronomica word,
you know, because a lot of people go there just
to have a space to drink for retail costs. You
know, you buy a beer there, it costs the same
as a supermarket, but because you're a member,
you have a table, so you can use it. There is
even people, so this is how it works. You bring
your own food, you cook. There are big kitchens
with big equipments and everything. You can do
whatever you want. As a member, for example,
I can bring my friends. I'm responsible of my
friends. So if they break something or they do
something wrong, it's my fault. I have to pay
for it. So as I was saying, you bring your own
ingredients, you cook there. There is a bar,
but no bartender. It's kind of like when you're
at someone's home, you open the fridge and you
grab whatever. At the end, you pay the drinks.
Like me, as a member, I have to count everything.
and charge myself and pay myself. There's a digital
booking system nowadays, digital POS systems.
So you pay and that's the best part of the Sociedad
is that you go home. You don't clean anything.
Cleaning crew arrives and they take care of everything.
But the thing is, you don't have to be a good
chef. You don't even have to cook. There's people
that go there and they get like whatever, like
they buy some roasted chicken and they eat it
at the Sociedad. because probably it's a more
enjoyable place in their homes. It's private.
And they don't have to clean, and you can invite
friends, and you have a large table for 10 people.
It's easy. I mean, you can go in the middle of
the day with your laptop to work there. It's
like your house. The only thing is that if you're
going to cook, you need to book, and then you
have to count everything and pay. That's what
a sociedad is. And I self -imposed myself the
rule of cooking only 100 % ultra mega Basque
cuisine. That's my rule. Like, I want to, you
know, like, there are many super nice Basque
dishes that I've eaten many times, but I've never
cooked. So I want to, you know. Like, do the
whole game, all the levels. Like, up until I'm
documenting everything properly, up until I have,
like, 100 Basque recipes. You know, like... Yeah,
so my first one was marmitaco, which is a tuna
stew. I asked around. Like, I had some friends,
and I was like, tell me a Basque dish. And my
friend Iñaki said... Marmitaco. And I was like,
okay. So I booked, I invited friends, I organized
everything. And then I was talking with our friend
Fernando Palacio, the one who tried to murder
us in a forest, like a Basque terrorist. And
he said, I do like a super nice marmitaco. And
I was like, okay, perfect. So I have someone
to teach me. So we bought everything. It's a
super nice stew, man. Like, you know, like you
cook this base with lots of peppers. You know,
like this Basque sofritos always have like this
tender onions and leeks. as well pimiento choricero
like three jars of it some tomatoes as well so
you do like this super nice base with fish stock
so like this strong tomato pepper kind of base
a little bit of chili as well some bay leaves
and then you cook bonito in it Albacore tuna
is the way it can be called in English, even
though a lot of people know bonito. That's the
tuna that you find here in the region. It's part
of the Cantarian Sea. It's usually not like a
super big fish, like a super big tuna compared
to other tunas. Like a bonito can be, I don't
know, as big as a watermelon, sometimes bigger.
I mean, it could be like half a human body also.
That would be like a very big one. But yeah,
it's like a white tuna, and it's the most common
tuna that you see around here. It's something
that Basque grandmothers, they jar it, they do
like this, tuna belly tin preserves that once
a year, and they give it for the whole family,
you know, like that. That's like a very common
thing. And yeah, basically you take the chunks
of this fish, the way we did it. because in many
cases traditional recipes overcook fish a lot
when the sauce was already up to point the fish
was well pre -salted and then thrown to the sauce
fire off and just letting it cook with the residual
heat so so the first like the first plate we
had it was like a little a little bit rare on
the inside but i have to say the second place
was better after it rested like i don't know
10 15 minutes what it took to eat the first place
and then i wanted a second one that was a good
one when it was cooked through yeah but it was
still it was cooked through but but not not overcooked
or anything it was like just nice you know uh
but i don't know probably the the juices of the
fish mixed with the sauce and it was just better
the second one so next time i'll do it like i
let it rest a little bit And yeah, tomorrow is
my second session and I will do chipirones in
ink, you know, like squid and black sauce, which
is like a super traditional dish. And also like
the process of doing this has been super fun
because I have even here at home, but also at
the library, at work, like all of these cookbooks
about traditional Basque cuisine that, you know,
you... Once in a while, you have a question and
you read, how is a marmitaco? You read it and
that's it. But it's way more fun to actually
cook all these traditional dishes. That's my
new hobby on my day off. That's awesome, man.
Sociedades are so much fun. Marmitaco is an amazing
dish. How you describe it sounds really good.
I often ate it. I didn't eat it many times when
I was there. And I always had it with the fish
being like very, very overcooked and like kind
of like dry. And I was like, the sauce is nice,
but then the fish is like super like. Yeah, we
had two Basques in our group eating with us,
and both of them said, this is the best marmitaco
I've ever had, which is like a nice compliment
for my first. And so two things, the size of
the fish is key, and the size of the potatoes.
Like if you put marmitaco on Google Images, you
will see these potatoes that are like quartered,
and you know this style of breaking the potatoes
that is very much from here, just to release
the starch. And not larger than, like, something
that would fit into a spoon. Not like this ping
pong ball -sized potatoes. That's too big. Yeah,
I love bonito. Bonito is one of my favorite fish.
It's, like, so versatile. And a lot of people,
I feel like they think of tuna. They think, obviously,
of the, like, big, like, yellowfin or bluefin
tuna. But bonito, or katsu, as it's called in
Japanese, is super nice. I mean, that's basically
what katsu bushi is made out of. The bonito flakes
that they use in Japanese food for making dashi,
etc., as a garnish. And also, like, one of my
favorite things that I ate when I was in Japan,
they take a fillet of bonito, and they skew it,
and then in a grill, they build a fire with hay,
dry hay. So they throw the hay into the charcoal,
and it flames up. You hold the bonito into the
flame so it gets charred a little bit. You have
to be careful because flame touching protein,
always very, very difficult. And then the hay
goes out, you kind of blow it out and it's kind
of smoking, right? So it's like outside, it's
like smoked, almost like a tataki, right? And
then often that, you slice it pretty thickly
as like a sashimi slash tataki sort of thing.
Very, very thick slices, often brushed with soy
sauce a little bit or marinated. And then you
eat it with this like Japanese mustard sauce.
it's very traditional very very traditional yeah
you have this like meaty raw smoky fish glazed
with like intense soy sauce and then just like
very spicy mustard a little bit of like you know
just raw spring onions next to it it's amazing
it's so delicious you know i don't have like
crazy experience fishing but in the little experience
that i have fishing i fish probably like 50 bonitos
Yeah, like in Margarita Island in the Caribbean,
Venezuela. We would do these day trips where
you would pay the fishermen to just go with them
and fish. And the technique was insane. It was
with the boat moving, not super fast, but you
know, like motorboats. Not at maximum speed,
of course. And then with the nylon, you would
use it with your finger. and whether it would
speak so at the end your finger would have like
cuts because of the and of course this caribbean
pirate fisherman they didn't you know like they
had like stone fingers so they could just do
it but i was crying like like a little white
boy and then under the sun so there was like
this um gum rings that you would put in your
finger so so that you could make it easier but
yeah we would fish like this year and That's
where I learned that the best fish ever is the
one you fished yourself. After a fishing day,
you have this grill. We would grill these bonitos.
It was just over the top. Just the best of the
best. Yeah, you can't replicate that. It's an
incredible experience to be so close to the source
of food. And it makes you realize product quality
and freshness, what it actually means. yeah it's
it's incredible yeah also bonito flakes a super
cool garnish you know for like takoyaki you know
these like little umami bombs of you know would
you say the tuna is the fish with the most umami
i think so huh oh yeah yeah i went to this place
and Tsukiji market uh i don't know that that
is this guy the tuna king you know this guy yeah
yeah yeah yeah i've seen him And you know, it's
the kind of place that I wouldn't walk in because
it was this guy. They're like, yeah, the tuna
king. And he would appear on television, kind
of like a Simpsons character, you know? But then
I heard that that guy, he goes to the tuna auction
every year. And the first fish that is sold,
he has to buy it. It doesn't matter how much
it costs. It will be he, the first buyer every
year. And that's kind of like his marketing thing.
This is Sebastián Pincheira, the chef of Kai
Sushi, told me this. And yeah, he has like many
restaurants in Japan. So when I walk into this
place and there were like all of these things
that said, if you film everything here and you
upload it to YouTube without permission, we will
bring it down. So, like, also because of that,
and I was creating content, I wanted just to
walk out just because of that, you know? But
Bernie, my travel companion, she was like, let's
have it. Let's try it. dude it was like a fucking
incredible tuna like when people ask me about
recommendations in japan i tell them yeah go
to the tuna king you know like it's like uh also
it's easy to get in it's cheap it's nice uh and
and the tuna is just incredible yeah but that
was probably no that was red tuna yeah not not
bonito or anything yeah and that is like again
it's like it's such a versatile fish There's
so many parts. It's a big fucking animal, right?
I mean, like, how much does a tuna weigh? Like
a big tuna? 600 kilos. It's massive. It's like
a fucking cow, right? Yeah. And, like, people
think of sort of like a fish is fish, you know?
But, I mean, there's so many parts to the tuna,
from the head meat to the cheeks to the collar
and the neck. Then the different parts of the
fillet, you know? You have the akami, the lean
tuna. Then you have the medium fat content. which
I don't remember what it's called in Japanese.
You have the otoro, which is the belly part,
right? You have the eye. You have the organs.
You have the fin part. You know, they're all
different. And they can get treated differently
also. There's a really amazing chef in L .A.
He used to be in London. I used to work for him,
a Japanese chef called Junya Yamasaki. Amazing
chef. And he's got an incredible restaurant in
L .A. now called Yes with three S. And what makes
this guy special from what he did in London,
but also what he does in California now, is that
he cooks, for me, what I feel like is just pure,
authentic Japanese food without importing shit.
So he uses local ingredients and approaches them
full on with a Japanese mentality. He did that
in England, which was very interesting, with
all the wild plants in England, and he does that
now in California. And he's really big on tuna.
And he does all sorts of stuff. He, like, takes
the head. He puts it. He has this amazing setup
with, like, a wood -fired, like, stove. Like,
very almost like a very fancy Japanese countryside
home where he, like, cooks the rice over, like,
wood fire. But also he has this, like, smoker
setup. So he'll put the whole head into the smoker
and smoke it for, like, hours and hours and hours.
And then he pulls the head meat and makes, like,
pulled tuna, you know, like pulled pork. fucking
amazing right and then like all the different
parts you know the lean tuna the fatty tuna this
that blah the collar then you get you get it
grilled then the the meat from the ribs you know
that you scrape off that has like a particular
texture and so it's like it's really sort of
like um like nose to tail i think he has a i
think he called it like lip to tail um cooking
and i think that's such an amazing approach absolutely
there are also pieces of the tuna that you you
could easily fool someone into believing that
it's cow meat. You know, like I once had like
a part of the neck that in Spanish is called
parapatana. And that really was like having meat.
It was like very meaty, not fishy at all, like
a red meat. And it was like, wow, like this is
really incredible. And I also saw like this bar
in Japan as well, where they would serve like
the ribs, you know. And you take the meat out
with a spoon. That's so cool. Yeah, there's this
old principle that my grand -grandmother would
say that my father would tell me that best meat
is the one that is closest to the bone. For example,
if you get a chuleta here, the best meat, when
you get the bone and you eat with your bare hands
the rib. And I remember the first time I saw
somebody working with tuna ribs was... masaharu
morimoto iron chef japan uh and one of the shows
he was he was serving ribs uh and yeah just now
talking about this and remembering it i googled
morimoto ribs and there are like this incredible
pictures of hoisin chili sticky spare ribs of
tuna that really look like like meat you know
like but they're tuna ribs oh yeah it looks amazing
i just looked it up oh that looks good jesus
that looks amazing such a cool idea right yeah
very nice and then the other thing is the the
belly like from the bonito like you know like
have you seen the belly like like when it's attached
to the fish that is like uh yeah the the under
part But, yeah, bonito also has, like, or tunas
have, like, this kind of, like, hard skin, right?
And here, the normal way to cook this would be,
like, with the cages. You know, you put it in
a cage to flip it on the grill and grill. And
that's it, man. And it's just the best thing
in the world. It's incredible. It's like a fatty
steak. It's like wagyu, you know? I mean, tuna
have a really fascinating anatomy, you know,
with the way that they... they're not like other
fish where they're kind of like a separate thing
where they separate into four fillets basically
you know but they're still a round fish um and
yeah the the the belly meat is absolutely incredible
also obviously like often used for sushi and
sashimi and stuff like that but it's so close
to like a fatty wagyu steak and it's really i
really like treating things like this It's like
a decontextualization. This is a word that I
learned in the Basque Culinary Center, you know,
decontextualization. But it actually makes a
lot of sense. I was working the last couple of
weeks on a dish. I work primarily in a Japanese
-inspired restaurant. I learned that word from
Albuji, actually, but yeah. Oh, yeah? Very good.
So, you know steak au poivre, right? Yes, of
course. It used to be my favorite dish as a kid.
it's one of my favorite dishes still i think
well done you know like a nicely cooked steak
a nice sauce and then fries next to it to mop
up the sauce so i want i wanted to make this
but with tuna tuna grilled tuna But like Japanese.
I think that has been done before. I'm pretty
sure I've seen that before. Probably, yeah. I
made this like au poivre sauce with like beef
jus, but also with like reduced soy and ponzu.
And then instead of just using like normal pepper,
I used sancho pepper and szechuan pepper in it.
So you have this like green yuzu kosho, like
fermented yuzu chili paste. And it's like so
bright and creamy and tangy and stuff. And then
you have this like medium rare tuna just grilled,
you know, but like inside is still rare. And
then I made this like matchstick fries, just
like crispy potatoes seasoned with like a roasted
nori salt with like vinegar powder and stuff.
And oh my God, it's just so nice. That sounds
incredible. I also have to say like normal black
pepper and tuna are great friends. Oh, absolutely.
Like pepper -crusted tuna. That's like a classic
thing, no? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And something
I knew about recently is that tuna is one of
the very few fishes that is warm -blooded, not
cold -blooded. And that is also probably something
that makes a difference in the meat and the texture
and some things. Obviously, Japan is very natural
for us to think of Japan when we think of tuna.
um but you know what i think is a really underrated
dish is a dish that you know there's these sorts
of dishes that you see everywhere everybody knows
them but very very very rarely do you see it
done well and one dish for me that i'm a little
bit obsessed with right now is vitello tornado
oh yeah oh yes that's amazing it's such a good
dish and it's like you know like the other day
we were talking about vitello tornado And I think
it's super nice. If you have the veal, it's nicely
roasted. You make a nice sauce. I visited my
friend Akash in Paris not too long ago. And they,
in the restaurant that he works, they make a
vitello tonnato where they make the tonnato sauce
lightly aerated in an espuma. And it just makes
it much lighter, not like a real espuma, just
a little bit, just a little bit fluffy. And it
makes it like so light and nice to eat. But then
a friend of mine told me about this restaurant
in Japan, and they do vitello tonnato, but the
other way around. So they do like a poached tuna
belly. Ah, that's genius, man. And then they
make a sauce out of the veal, out of the roasted
veal. And I was like, man, that's so crazy. That's
so good. That is so much better. Why is everybody
doing it the other way around, you know? Yeah,
but that's the thing. It's like everybody gets
stuck with these things that we perceive as traditional,
you know? That's such a genius idea because I
can imagine like a tuna carpaccio with a heavy
meat jus, you know? It just works, you know?
Like I can taste it already in my mouth. Yeah,
if you have like a nicely made mayonnaise and
then you fold like a veal jus underneath, you
know? Fuck, you know? There must be a name for
that. There must be a name for that, right? Mayo
with meat jus, for sure. Yeah, for sure. It's
kind of like a sauce feuillotte. It's like a
hollandaise that you then fold jus into. That's
very, very nice also, but something along those
lines. And I remember in that episode with Masaharu
Morimoto, he would also do like the fucking bone
marrow of the tuna. He would serve that. Oh,
yeah. When you crack the compartments open, you
have this almost like... um teardrop sort of
like jelly no i've never tried that i've never
eaten it have you yeah no no no but that was
also very interesting and yeah you also have
the cheeks you know what i've never seen and
a tuna has to have one because as far as i know
every fish has one a cococha ah the cococha yeah
um yeah a cococha i mean every fish has one right
as far as i know part of the part of the jowl
i guess now the jowl is always like a very nice
part of the fish also also something i would
think about like in venezuela tuna is ultra common
But it's canned tuna. You know, it's something
that you get in sandwiches to bring to school,
you know, or tuna salads you cook at home. Or
even when there were like these programs where
they would give government -funded food to whoever
it needed, it was tuna. It was like super crappy
tuna, but it was tuna. So I grew up first with
this idea of canned tuna as a thing. You don't
even think about where it comes from. You think
it grows in a can as a little city boy. And then
you grow up and you see, oh, that thing that
is on the sushi, that super nice red fish, is
the same thing that is in the can. It's like,
okay. Why do they fuck it up like that? Yeah,
yeah. I always wondered that. There wasn't a
lot of stuff that I didn't like as a kid, but
canned tuna was one of them, you know? And how
a lot of people, it's delicious to them, and
they're sort of like, oh, canned tuna on a piece
of toast. For me, that was always like, no, no
way. Nowadays, I've gotten around to it. But
also... But there are also levels of quality,
okay? That's what I was just going to say, yeah.
Yeah. Like, for example, Bonito del Norte...
a can or tint or in a jar of Borito del Norte
or a good tuna belly can. That's incredible.
To put it in a Russian salad or in a vitello
tonnato or these kind of things is just incredible.
I remember when I was living in San Sebastian
in Tamboril, I ate a salad with tuna belly and
tomatoes and onion. That was it. But the tuna
belly was like confit and oil and preserved so
nicely. It was such a fucking delicious thing.
And I think this is also a very underrated technique.
There's like confit and escabeche and all these
sorts of things. Really, like if it's done nicely
and you take care of the cooking of the fish,
it can be absolutely spectacular. You guys, you're
serving stuff with tuna right now, aren't you?
We're serving a fuck ton of tuna. Yeah, right?
Yeah. By the way, on the foie episode, when I
asked, like, where are you sending the halal
foie gras? And they told me Dubai. They're buying
all the foie gras. People love fucking foie gras
here, man. Yeah, super nice. But I saw some dishes
you were serving. Is it possible that it was
a tuna with truffles or something like that?
Yes, potentially tuna with truffles. But yeah,
potentially, potentially. Okay. What do you have
now on the manual with tuna? Well, I mean, we
have all sorts of stuff now. We have chutoro,
sashimis. We have all sorts of nigiris and hand
rolls. You know, we have like we're really big
into hand rolls right now. That's actually a
thing where there's tuna and truffle together.
And I only really realized a couple of days ago.
And I would have never made that connection,
but it works really well. So I'm trying to get
into sushi. I'm trying to learn how to make sushi,
right? Because I've never learned sushi. It's
actually quite difficult. In theory, it's easy,
but you have to get the practice and the making
the nigiri. It's like there's so many small steps.
So whenever I can, I spend time with the sushi
team and they very patiently teach me. And so
at one point I was like, okay, let's make some
maki rolls. And they were like, let's make some
spicy tuna. And so he starts mixing the tuna.
And he was like, yeah, tuna, gochujang, and then
a little bit of the sriracha. And we make our
own sriracha in -house. And then he was like,
and now I'm going to add some truffle oil. And
I was like, really? Like truffle oil to spicy
tuna? And he was like, yeah, just a little bit.
You don't really notice it. And he did to the
spicy fragrant tuna mix. I see it 100%. It just
brought the complexity to a complete other level.
And I was like, man, fucking hell. If I ordered
this maki, I would never guess that there's truffle
in it. But it just works. Yeah, absolutely. We
also have this really nice, it's a bestseller
at the moment. We have this really nice little
bite. We were doing it for our chef's table.
But now we put it on the menu because it's just
so popular. We make these little tartlets of
nori. So you have these like little crunchy nori
tarts. Super delicious. And then we make a tartar
out of akami and otoro. So you have lean tuna
and fatty tuna together. We dress that with a
little bit of shallot, just raw shallot, and
a little bit of like an intense sort of sweetened
soy sauce. And then we put that into the tartlet,
make a little base. Then we have like a little
light mayonnaise made from yuzu kosho. It just
goes inside a little bit, a little bit more tuna.
And then on top, you just get some caviar, some
myoga. and a little bit of chive, and that's
it. And you eat it in like one go. It's just
like one bite of tuna, yuzu kosho, caviar. It's
like the perfect bite. It's so delicious. That's
it for this week's episode of Potluck Food Talks.
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