WEBVTT 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:10.300 You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Hi, 00:00:10.439 --> 00:00:13.220 everyone. Welcome to Potluck Food Talks. Today, 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:16.179 we have a special guest, Jackie Villena. She 00:00:16.179 --> 00:00:19.879 has worked in some amazing restaurants like Gusto 00:00:19.879 --> 00:00:23.940 in Bolivia, Barra Lima in Peru with Francis Malman. 00:00:24.460 --> 00:00:28.679 Also, then at Little Washington with Patrick 00:00:28.679 --> 00:00:31.739 O 'Connell. the best restaurants in America, 00:00:31.899 --> 00:00:35.179 and now she's working in a restaurant group, 00:00:35.399 --> 00:00:40.000 and for a while she specialized in a caviar restaurant, 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:42.179 which is going to be the topic today. We're going 00:00:42.179 --> 00:00:45.179 to talk about caviar. Welcome, Jackie. Nice to 00:00:45.179 --> 00:00:48.039 have you here. What's the deal with caviar? Let's 00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:50.280 start with the beginning. What is caviar? Is 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:54.560 it like a natural product, or is it like a human 00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:57.219 process? As far as I understand, it's a salt 00:00:57.219 --> 00:01:01.520 -cured roll, but is it... humanly processed or 00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:04.700 that's the natural way it comes out of the fish? 00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:08.879 So in the past, when it was wild -caught, basically 00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:11.760 people used to consume like the sturgeon, right? 00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:16.019 So basically the fishermen will take the sturgeon 00:01:16.019 --> 00:01:18.340 and take the caviar and they will consume the 00:01:18.340 --> 00:01:21.260 caviar as like butter for their bread. Like it 00:01:21.260 --> 00:01:24.000 was the most casual thing. Yeah. It was a, it 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:26.480 was a peasant food, right? It was like a poor 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:30.040 man's food. It's for the fishermen and they will 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:33.079 like eat that with their bread and put some salt 00:01:33.079 --> 00:01:36.200 because caviar when it's not salted, like it 00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:39.439 has no flavor. Like most of the things, right? 00:01:39.719 --> 00:01:42.640 Like it was like the most like simple thing in 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:46.519 the world till it became like a boom. It started 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:49.879 in Paris, you know, when it became popular. in 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:52.620 the high class, basically, people wonder, like, 00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:55.040 why caviar is so expensive, right? It's just 00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:59.859 raw from a sturgeon. What makes it, like, expensive 00:01:59.859 --> 00:02:03.180 and delicatense, basically, it's the time that 00:02:03.180 --> 00:02:08.500 you need to get caviar, right? Because for a 00:02:08.500 --> 00:02:13.199 sturgeon to be caught, or now, like, it's illegal 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:18.389 to do wild caught. So there's farms of sturgeons 00:02:18.389 --> 00:02:22.389 around the globe and it popularized so much that 00:02:22.389 --> 00:02:25.030 now you can find like farms in Uruguay, like 00:02:25.030 --> 00:02:27.930 Madagascar, like in places that you couldn't 00:02:27.930 --> 00:02:31.650 imagine before with great quality caviar. But 00:02:31.650 --> 00:02:34.110 basically what makes caviar like so expensive 00:02:34.110 --> 00:02:36.750 and so delicate is that you need at least 10 00:02:36.750 --> 00:02:40.069 years in the process to get the caviar. For the 00:02:40.069 --> 00:02:43.409 fish to get maturity, right? To produce the eggs. 00:02:43.550 --> 00:02:46.949 Is that correct? Yeah, you need like a long time. 00:02:47.110 --> 00:02:50.229 Basically, it will take around eight to 10 years 00:02:50.229 --> 00:02:53.629 for the sturgeon to be able to give you the quantity 00:02:53.629 --> 00:02:55.750 that you want from caviar. Usually it's like 00:02:55.750 --> 00:02:59.669 18 % of their weight. So you have to wait and 00:02:59.669 --> 00:03:04.199 wait and wait. And basically, you cannot... There's 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:07.000 places where they open a little incision and 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:09.780 they will get the caviar. But then the second 00:03:09.780 --> 00:03:12.020 batch of caviar that you will have to wait a 00:03:12.020 --> 00:03:14.539 really long time as well. It's not going to be 00:03:14.539 --> 00:03:17.759 as great quality. So this is an incision to the 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:21.340 live fish and then it's thrown back to the water? 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:25.460 I mean, there's people that do that. Or, you 00:03:25.460 --> 00:03:27.939 know, you take and you consume the meat of the 00:03:27.939 --> 00:03:30.840 fish and it's a wonderful thing. Okay, interesting. 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:33.919 So I have many questions. I've never had caviar 00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:37.699 like in my mise en place in a restaurant. So 00:03:37.699 --> 00:03:42.159 I wouldn't know how to treat it. So like if I 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:45.680 get like a can of beluga caviar, for example, 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:51.240 how long can I hold it? How long does it take 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:55.039 until it's not good enough for consumption? Well, 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:58.460 this is great news because actually caviar, I 00:03:58.460 --> 00:04:01.500 mean, since you get it, Or like basically it 00:04:01.500 --> 00:04:04.400 will be like since it's packed, it will last 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:09.180 like six weeks. But also after the process where 00:04:09.180 --> 00:04:11.479 you get the caviar and then you salt it, you 00:04:11.479 --> 00:04:14.439 have to let the caviar cure. So that will depend 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:16.699 on the quality of the caviar. It's basically 00:04:16.699 --> 00:04:19.620 like wine, right? If you can let caviar mature 00:04:19.620 --> 00:04:22.819 longer, it will develop like better tasting notes. 00:04:24.459 --> 00:04:27.220 And also like the texture, it will be more firm, 00:04:27.339 --> 00:04:30.199 you know, like it's a whole process. So because 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:32.800 the caviar has to mature, it will be like from 00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:37.399 three to 12 months. So that's great. So it's 00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:40.180 been already like, basically, if you want to 00:04:40.180 --> 00:04:42.139 call it like that, it's been like three to 12 00:04:42.139 --> 00:04:44.800 months in a fridge. And then when it's great 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:48.279 to consumption, it has the best like, you know, 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:52.639 tasting notes, then it's like salt and it can 00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:56.540 last. around six weeks. So that's great. And 00:04:56.540 --> 00:05:00.000 is it possible that the prices have dropped a 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:02.579 little bit? Because as far as I know, I mean, 00:05:02.620 --> 00:05:04.819 Caviar has always been there. It's something 00:05:04.819 --> 00:05:08.399 like jeans, so to say. It's something that is 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:11.480 not, it's always on trend, right? But I do feel 00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:14.420 that in the last, I will say, five years, it 00:05:14.420 --> 00:05:18.139 has become way more trendy than before. Is there 00:05:18.139 --> 00:05:20.540 a reason for that? Is it social media? Is it 00:05:20.540 --> 00:05:23.990 the price altogether? In my personal opinion, 00:05:24.189 --> 00:05:27.709 I would say that the reason why it became so 00:05:27.709 --> 00:05:32.050 popular is because there's more types of, not 00:05:32.050 --> 00:05:34.550 that there's more types of caviar, but like there's 00:05:34.550 --> 00:05:38.110 so many farms that have different tasting notes. 00:05:38.170 --> 00:05:41.269 So basically it's easier to find the perfect 00:05:41.269 --> 00:05:45.370 tasting note for anyone. Like, for example, in 00:05:45.370 --> 00:05:49.339 New York, we have, we call that caviar. that 00:05:49.339 --> 00:05:52.160 eats kaluga, that eats one of the mildest, the 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:54.699 chef's caviar, because you can use that caviar 00:05:54.699 --> 00:05:57.660 and put it on any dish and it's just gonna improve 00:05:57.660 --> 00:06:00.199 the saltiness and the flavor of the dish without 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:03.060 become like overpowering and for people to be 00:06:03.060 --> 00:06:06.040 like, oh my gosh, what is this, right? Now there's 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:08.620 like so many other options that you can choose 00:06:08.620 --> 00:06:11.300 that now it became popular because you can actually 00:06:11.300 --> 00:06:14.759 find the perfect caviar for you. What are the, 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:18.480 so to say, the categories in the flavor spectrum? 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:21.480 Like you said, more mild, but the strongest. 00:06:22.040 --> 00:06:24.959 Well, how are the strongest? Are there more fishy 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:31.540 or more mommy? Or what are the notes? Yeah, definitely. 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:36.100 Okay, so let's start by Beluga. It's the most 00:06:36.100 --> 00:06:39.480 popular, like people love it. And when you see 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:42.279 the eggs, they are like really black or to the 00:06:42.279 --> 00:06:45.930 grayish. color and then when you try it it's 00:06:45.930 --> 00:06:50.410 like more intense it's almost like leathery flavor 00:06:50.410 --> 00:06:54.029 and it's more popular in europe so that's the 00:06:54.029 --> 00:06:56.689 tasting now that they love in europe uh here 00:06:56.689 --> 00:07:01.230 in the u .s uh it was banned for a while uh because 00:07:01.230 --> 00:07:04.290 it became like endangered species so people are 00:07:04.290 --> 00:07:07.879 starting doing a hybrid between Beluga and Cebruga. 00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:11.120 So you can find that hybrid right now in the 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:15.000 U .S. But it's like a really more like punchy 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:18.139 flavor that you have like, you know, really intense. 00:07:18.459 --> 00:07:21.699 Sea flavors, right? Yeah, sea flavors, completely 00:07:21.699 --> 00:07:26.240 intense, black, you know. And then you have Osetra 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:30.000 that it's more like nutty, if we can call it 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:33.360 like that. It's nutty. The flavor, it's like 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:36.699 intense, really salty. And the eggs, like, are 00:07:36.699 --> 00:07:41.939 more onto a golden color, like, kind of, like, 00:07:41.980 --> 00:07:45.720 brownish. And it's really popular because it 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:48.699 has more complexity. It's not just, like, salty 00:07:48.699 --> 00:07:50.819 or this and that. Like, you can taste different 00:07:50.819 --> 00:07:53.860 notes in this caviar, and it's my favorite, actually. 00:07:54.300 --> 00:07:56.740 And then you have calugas we talked about. Like, 00:07:56.779 --> 00:08:01.129 it has bigger eggs. It's more mild. The only 00:08:01.129 --> 00:08:03.810 thing that you will taste is more like, you know, 00:08:03.870 --> 00:08:07.889 some more saltiness. So it's really like people's 00:08:07.889 --> 00:08:10.709 favorite just because it's so easy to have, right? 00:08:10.810 --> 00:08:13.889 And then you have cebruga that has like smaller 00:08:13.889 --> 00:08:18.089 eggs. It's kind of of the blackish coffee flavor. 00:08:19.250 --> 00:08:23.009 And it's really, really like briny and a little 00:08:23.009 --> 00:08:26.120 bit like fishy. So you have like, and then you 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:28.720 have varieties, right? Depending on the farm 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:30.920 that you get the caviar. For example, there's 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:34.600 a caviar that comes from Madagascar. And when 00:08:34.600 --> 00:08:38.820 I was talking with my caviar rep, he said a story 00:08:38.820 --> 00:08:41.179 about that in the farm, they have like mango 00:08:41.179 --> 00:08:44.860 or papaya trees. So the rotten fruit will fall 00:08:44.860 --> 00:08:49.039 into the ponds and the fish will eat that. So 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:53.019 when you have the caviar, you can taste basically 00:08:53.019 --> 00:08:56.360 a little bit of rotten fruit flavors, which is 00:08:56.360 --> 00:08:59.179 weird to say. And I had it like we actually used 00:08:59.179 --> 00:09:02.240 to sell it, but they don't have like a big batches 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:04.320 of these caviar. So we couldn't continue like 00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:07.519 selling this one. But you have like amazing caviar 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:10.120 depending on the farm. Also, you will like taste 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:13.139 different notes, which is really cool. Super 00:09:13.139 --> 00:09:16.559 interesting. So you mentioned Madagascar, Uruguay. 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:19.980 For some reason, I have in my mind that Mongolia 00:09:19.980 --> 00:09:23.019 and China are producing some of the top. One 00:09:23.019 --> 00:09:27.870 of my favorite calugas comes from China. China 00:09:27.870 --> 00:09:32.210 is producing really great quality caviar. I can 00:09:32.210 --> 00:09:35.210 say like it's more, it's really consistent. The 00:09:35.210 --> 00:09:38.149 flavor is amazing. Like the eggs are firm. The 00:09:38.149 --> 00:09:40.909 kaluga that we consume for the restaurant, like 00:09:40.909 --> 00:09:44.070 I buy probably like seven kilos of caviar every 00:09:44.070 --> 00:09:47.570 week. So we purchased this kaluga from China. 00:09:47.730 --> 00:09:50.830 It's really great quality. And then you have 00:09:50.830 --> 00:09:53.669 like other farms, like in Afghanistan, like you 00:09:53.669 --> 00:09:57.629 have farms. Iran used to be... One of the traditional 00:09:57.629 --> 00:10:00.389 producers 100 years ago or something like that? 00:10:00.529 --> 00:10:03.850 Yeah, Iran. You have like farms in Iran, you 00:10:03.850 --> 00:10:07.049 know, like Russia. Right now and for the past 00:10:07.049 --> 00:10:10.970 10 years also with Russia that I know the reason 00:10:10.970 --> 00:10:13.330 that we don't buy the caviar is because they 00:10:13.330 --> 00:10:17.269 don't have enough to export in big quantities 00:10:17.269 --> 00:10:19.370 because they are consuming their own caviar. 00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:22.379 So it's all conflictive countries, as I see. 00:10:23.399 --> 00:10:27.039 China, Iran, Afghanistan. Yeah, actually, we 00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:32.399 used to purchase also from Israel. Yeah, another 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:34.320 one. I mean, there's farms all over the world. 00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:37.659 Those were the most, you know, near to the Black 00:10:37.659 --> 00:10:41.450 Sea. So, yeah, that was like... So and then when 00:10:41.450 --> 00:10:44.309 it comes to pairings, something that I also started 00:10:44.309 --> 00:10:47.049 to see, I mean, like I remember seeing already 00:10:47.049 --> 00:10:49.970 like 20 years ago, Heston Blumenthal was doing 00:10:49.970 --> 00:10:52.590 his famous dish of white chocolate and caviar. 00:10:52.610 --> 00:10:56.230 But recently I started to see like caviar on 00:10:56.230 --> 00:10:59.750 creme caramel, like on flan here in Spain or 00:10:59.750 --> 00:11:03.610 on Basque cheesecake, like lots of desserts with 00:11:03.610 --> 00:11:05.289 caviar. And for me, that's something relatively 00:11:05.289 --> 00:11:10.120 new to see. It's so widespread. I know. Actually, 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:12.879 when we were opening the champagne and caviar 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:15.799 bar where I used to work and I was the chef there, 00:11:15.899 --> 00:11:19.940 we did R &D and we tasted all the kinds of caviar 00:11:19.940 --> 00:11:22.159 that you can imagine from all the farms and all 00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:24.600 the brands. Like we were eating caviar so much. 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:29.059 And then we did the R &D process. So there I 00:11:29.059 --> 00:11:32.240 ended up cooking. Like literally cooking with 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:35.220 caviar for a whole year in different dishes. 00:11:35.419 --> 00:11:37.799 And one of my favorites, actually, was French 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:41.759 toast. Oh, yeah. With a lot like, you know, it 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:46.059 has to be like warm and gooey and crunchy on 00:11:46.059 --> 00:11:50.279 the outside. I love maple and caviar, etc. caviar. 00:11:50.419 --> 00:11:52.860 Oh, my gosh. It was like just the perfect combo. 00:11:52.980 --> 00:11:55.340 You know, I mean, I used to work at the Natalito 00:11:55.340 --> 00:11:58.799 Washington and Patrick will say put. the same 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:02.019 amount of salt and sugar in any dish like even 00:12:02.019 --> 00:12:05.779 like juices right so for me like this combo of 00:12:05.779 --> 00:12:09.399 like salt and sugar is just like so umami uh 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:13.100 we used to do donuts with caviar you know we 00:12:13.100 --> 00:12:15.080 wanted to kind of like focus a little bit on 00:12:15.080 --> 00:12:18.399 the american aspect you know yeah so we were 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:21.500 like trying donuts with caviar and then we did 00:12:21.500 --> 00:12:25.269 so many dishes like pairing like sweet and savory 00:12:25.269 --> 00:12:31.429 also one like vanilla ice cream caviar and olive 00:12:31.429 --> 00:12:36.649 oil okay it's so good so good i guess like cream 00:12:36.649 --> 00:12:39.990 and fat are key right to enhance the flavors 00:12:39.990 --> 00:12:43.330 exactly actually like caviar is served with accoutrements 00:12:43.330 --> 00:12:47.750 and one of the key things that you need to have 00:12:47.750 --> 00:12:50.870 when you are having caviar is like fresh or butter 00:12:50.870 --> 00:12:55.529 so that basically will contrast like the brininess, 00:12:55.769 --> 00:12:58.809 right? So it's going to give a nice soft and 00:12:58.809 --> 00:13:02.769 mild, you know, pairing with the caviar. So anything 00:13:02.769 --> 00:13:06.350 creamy is like welcome with caviar. Yeah, like 00:13:06.350 --> 00:13:10.690 I just recently went to Echevarri and we added 00:13:10.690 --> 00:13:13.649 an extra dish of caviar to the menu and it was 00:13:13.649 --> 00:13:17.889 served just with, it was goat butter and caviar. 00:13:17.970 --> 00:13:21.029 That was it. And it's all you need. And brioche. 00:13:21.610 --> 00:13:24.850 Like for me, that's my perfect combo. Like brioche, 00:13:24.870 --> 00:13:28.049 butter, like great quality butter and caviar. 00:13:28.090 --> 00:13:31.149 Like so simple, but that's my favorite way to 00:13:31.149 --> 00:13:34.070 eat caviar. And we used to serve it at the inn 00:13:34.070 --> 00:13:39.169 also with brioche and butter. Yeah. Yeah. More 00:13:39.169 --> 00:13:41.610 butter. And brioche is just like a lot of butter 00:13:41.610 --> 00:13:44.500 in there. Yeah. Yeah, also something I started 00:13:44.500 --> 00:13:47.720 to see, I saw that before, but I started to see 00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:52.159 it way more recently is adding caviar to steak 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:54.840 tartare. And I think that's so clever because 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:57.620 it's common to add anchovies or anchovy flavors. 00:13:57.940 --> 00:14:01.480 And so you have this fishy, strong flavor, which 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:04.919 caviar also has. And it's also an egg. So it's 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:07.100 also common to add eggs to a steak tartare. So 00:14:07.100 --> 00:14:09.600 it makes completely sense to add this, I think. 00:14:10.110 --> 00:14:13.610 It's just so good. We actually served this steak 00:14:13.610 --> 00:14:17.190 tartare in the restaurant. We picked up so good 00:14:17.190 --> 00:14:20.090 quality caviar that was like briny and we'll 00:14:20.090 --> 00:14:22.269 give all these notes that we had to take the 00:14:22.269 --> 00:14:25.950 capers away, basically, because it wasn't needed. 00:14:26.129 --> 00:14:29.009 Yeah, it was like just chives, you know, meat, 00:14:29.250 --> 00:14:32.009 great quality meat and the caviar, the saltiness. 00:14:32.110 --> 00:14:34.970 That's it. Yeah, I completely agree. You don't 00:14:34.970 --> 00:14:38.149 need capers if you have caviar. Yeah, for sure. 00:14:38.669 --> 00:14:42.470 And then what are the correct ways to treat it? 00:14:42.549 --> 00:14:45.269 I know you have to use these pearl spoons, no 00:14:45.269 --> 00:14:48.850 metal, because it oxidizes. Are there any other 00:14:48.850 --> 00:14:52.590 good practices? And if you have a can of caviar 00:14:52.590 --> 00:14:55.450 in front of you, what's the best way to use and 00:14:55.450 --> 00:14:58.909 the ones not to do? I mean, I would say never 00:14:58.909 --> 00:15:01.889 open a tin of caviar if you're not planning to 00:15:01.889 --> 00:15:04.990 consume that in the next two to three days. Because 00:15:04.990 --> 00:15:07.169 sometimes you want to take a little bite and 00:15:07.169 --> 00:15:10.419 then you will try it in a week, right? Like it's 00:15:10.419 --> 00:15:12.559 the main event, like try not to open because 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:16.320 air will make the caviar oxidize. So that's why 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:19.320 it's so sealed. And then mother of pearl spoons 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:22.539 of like wooden spoons, plastic spoons, just because 00:15:22.539 --> 00:15:25.919 if you use metal, that would, or golden, golden 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:28.639 also, it's a good, you know, recommendation. 00:15:29.259 --> 00:15:32.080 But if you put metal on the caviar first, the 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:35.929 flavor will change. And then it will oxidize. 00:15:36.049 --> 00:15:38.950 And when it oxidizes, basically you see that 00:15:38.950 --> 00:15:42.330 caviar that has a lot of oil in the thin. And 00:15:42.330 --> 00:15:44.950 that's a bad sign. That means that it's oxidizing 00:15:44.950 --> 00:15:48.970 and basically it will melt, right? One of the 00:15:48.970 --> 00:15:51.970 best qualities of caviar is like preserving the 00:15:51.970 --> 00:15:55.250 pop that it's like eggs. So when you open a tin 00:15:55.250 --> 00:15:57.590 of caviar, you want to see every individual egg. 00:15:57.730 --> 00:16:00.210 And basically you're killing that process if 00:16:00.210 --> 00:16:02.929 you use something that is not appropriate. And 00:16:02.929 --> 00:16:05.649 then keep the caviar with eyes and make sure 00:16:05.649 --> 00:16:08.710 that the thin is flat. Some people, like, don't 00:16:08.710 --> 00:16:10.669 care, you know, and they will put the caviar, 00:16:10.669 --> 00:16:13.750 like, anyway. But, like, make sure that it's 00:16:13.750 --> 00:16:15.950 flat because if not, all the eggs will crush, 00:16:16.190 --> 00:16:20.950 you know, with the weight. And, yeah, I would 00:16:20.950 --> 00:16:23.610 say those are... So, plastic. Plastic is allowed 00:16:23.610 --> 00:16:26.450 and wood also. Okay, I wouldn't expect that. 00:16:26.490 --> 00:16:29.539 I knew that you had to use a smaller pearl. But 00:16:29.539 --> 00:16:31.639 yeah, good to know because everybody has some 00:16:31.639 --> 00:16:34.340 plastic utensil somewhere. Maybe not a pearl 00:16:34.340 --> 00:16:37.580 one. Yeah. And if you want to do like, for example, 00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:40.820 we do quenelles with caviar and we have like 00:16:40.820 --> 00:16:44.259 high volume, right? So we do pre -quenelles and 00:16:44.259 --> 00:16:46.860 we use like plastic spoons. You put a little 00:16:46.860 --> 00:16:50.139 bit of like oil, olive oil or like some water 00:16:50.139 --> 00:16:52.360 in the spoon and that will make the caviar like 00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:54.860 flow and not like crushed when you're trying 00:16:54.860 --> 00:16:57.559 to do something. So it's more malleable, basically. 00:16:58.090 --> 00:17:01.210 Okay, and Sam, we talked about desserts, creams, 00:17:01.350 --> 00:17:06.210 even ice cream and tartare. What are other, like, 00:17:06.210 --> 00:17:10.549 winner pairings, in your opinion? Other winner 00:17:10.549 --> 00:17:14.150 pairings, in my opinion, well, fried chicken 00:17:14.150 --> 00:17:18.549 and caviar. Oh, yeah. But, like, fried chicken 00:17:18.549 --> 00:17:23.930 and caviar, delicious. And hamachi, like, any 00:17:23.930 --> 00:17:27.410 crudo with caviar, it's so good. You used to 00:17:27.410 --> 00:17:31.049 have a ceviche company. Does that work with ceviche 00:17:31.049 --> 00:17:34.289 or the sour is a bad idea to pair it with? I 00:17:34.289 --> 00:17:36.670 was just thinking about that the other day. Maybe 00:17:36.670 --> 00:17:39.569 like not caviar, definitely, because you want 00:17:39.569 --> 00:17:42.130 to preserve like the taste and, you know, it's 00:17:42.130 --> 00:17:45.390 so delicate. And ceviche is just like, you know, 00:17:45.390 --> 00:17:49.369 a party of punches. Yeah, exactly. But maybe 00:17:49.369 --> 00:17:52.960 like some salmon eggs. That's not caviar, but 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:56.180 like salmon eggs, you know, or trout eggs. That 00:17:56.180 --> 00:17:58.819 would be like a nice pairing, definitely, with 00:17:58.819 --> 00:18:02.359 ceviche. Then what else is my favorite combo 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:07.200 with caviar? I like meat, you know, with a jus, 00:18:07.420 --> 00:18:12.039 like meat and caviar. And potato puree with caviar. 00:18:12.740 --> 00:18:16.799 And in those cases, how do you treat it? Do you 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:19.559 add it on top of the steak, just a spoon, or 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:22.059 you mix it with the sauce, or how does that work? 00:18:22.339 --> 00:18:25.740 Usually when you're doing fish with sauces and 00:18:25.740 --> 00:18:28.960 cream, you add the caviar, just so you have the 00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:32.920 caviar spread out evenly everywhere. And the 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:36.579 sauce, you mean? The sauce, yeah. Okay. But when 00:18:36.579 --> 00:18:39.880 it's with steak, you want to taste like the steak 00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:43.420 and the caviar also separate. So I will, my recommendation 00:18:43.420 --> 00:18:46.140 will be to just put it on the side or maybe on 00:18:46.140 --> 00:18:49.700 top, but not to mix, right? Because you can also 00:18:49.700 --> 00:18:52.960 have the both experience by themselves. Yeah. 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:56.460 And if you, if you mix it with a sauce, I guess 00:18:56.460 --> 00:18:59.420 that's a last minute thing, right? Last minute 00:18:59.420 --> 00:19:02.660 before it goes out. I mean, you can keep it. 00:19:02.700 --> 00:19:04.359 Like, it's not going to happen. Like, nothing 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:06.180 is going to happen. Like, decks are not going 00:19:06.180 --> 00:19:08.359 to explode or anything. You're going to preserve 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:11.279 the texture definitely for half an hour. You 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:13.720 know, like, it's fine. Yeah, you can keep it. 00:19:13.740 --> 00:19:16.910 As long as they have good quality. And I can 00:19:16.910 --> 00:19:19.170 also think of eggs. Yeah, it's something also 00:19:19.170 --> 00:19:22.769 relatively common, right? Like poached eggs or 00:19:22.769 --> 00:19:25.309 omelets or these kind of things. Yeah, omelet 00:19:25.309 --> 00:19:28.789 with caviar, delicious. Yeah, there's like a 00:19:28.789 --> 00:19:32.609 lot of like kind of like egg mousse that you 00:19:32.609 --> 00:19:36.109 put caviar on top and then you have toast. Delicious. 00:19:36.109 --> 00:19:39.769 The soft -boiled egg. Even like eggs benedict 00:19:39.769 --> 00:19:42.569 with caviar. That's really popular right now. 00:19:42.710 --> 00:19:45.710 Yeah. Yeah, it sounds amazing. Yeah, I can imagine 00:19:45.710 --> 00:19:48.789 like a nice liquid egg yolk full of caviar and 00:19:48.789 --> 00:19:52.029 using that as a sauce. I see that. There's a 00:19:52.029 --> 00:19:54.769 dish here called, it's from John George, one 00:19:54.769 --> 00:19:57.710 of my favorite chefs in New York. I think it's 00:19:57.710 --> 00:19:59.829 called egg with egg, but basically it's like 00:19:59.829 --> 00:20:03.230 a brioche toast, cured eggs, and then you have 00:20:03.230 --> 00:20:06.029 another brioche toast, chives, and a quenelle 00:20:06.029 --> 00:20:08.490 of caviar on top. And it's so popular. Actually, 00:20:08.589 --> 00:20:11.130 during the R &D process, I was like, I want to 00:20:11.130 --> 00:20:14.490 do this. And it's so good. Like just liquid egg 00:20:14.490 --> 00:20:18.450 yolk and the caviar. It's amazing. Yeah, I completely 00:20:18.450 --> 00:20:20.569 see that. And you mentioned mashed potatoes. 00:20:21.789 --> 00:20:24.309 How do you do it in that case? Do you do you 00:20:24.309 --> 00:20:26.569 incorporate it to the mashed potatoes also at 00:20:26.569 --> 00:20:28.710 the very end before serving or how does that 00:20:28.710 --> 00:20:32.930 work? No, we put it on top. It was like kind 00:20:32.930 --> 00:20:35.269 of like we just had mashed potatoes in the restaurant. 00:20:35.329 --> 00:20:39.190 And then we put caviar just because we had caviar 00:20:39.190 --> 00:20:41.730 and we were eating and it was so good. So we 00:20:41.730 --> 00:20:45.190 put it on the menu and it's now one of the most 00:20:45.190 --> 00:20:47.690 popular dishes that we have in the restaurant. 00:20:47.809 --> 00:20:50.640 Like it's so simple, but. Just put it on top 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:53.539 and people love it. Like there's so much butter. 00:20:53.700 --> 00:20:56.400 It's really, really rich though. So we don't 00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:59.240 serve like a big amount. Yeah. Yeah, I completely 00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:02.180 see that because the potato has its natural umami. 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:04.660 If you do like a classic French one with lots 00:21:04.660 --> 00:21:10.019 of butter. Yeah. That's all checks for caviar. 00:21:10.099 --> 00:21:12.680 You change like the butter on top, you know, 00:21:12.779 --> 00:21:17.789 herb, I don't know, butter by caviar. So good. 00:21:18.029 --> 00:21:23.130 What about buying caviar and not getting ripped 00:21:23.130 --> 00:21:27.509 off or scammed or getting fake caviar? What should 00:21:27.509 --> 00:21:30.950 people be aware of? When it comes to caviar, 00:21:31.049 --> 00:21:34.230 I work with Petrosian and I'm really proud to 00:21:34.230 --> 00:21:38.329 say this because they, in my opinion, are the 00:21:38.329 --> 00:21:41.410 best caviar company in the world. You really 00:21:41.410 --> 00:21:44.230 can see the quality in the caviar and they have 00:21:44.230 --> 00:21:47.299 stores all over the world. And then something 00:21:47.299 --> 00:21:49.700 that you need to be aware, like it's just like 00:21:49.700 --> 00:21:53.220 buy from companies that are really well known, 00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:56.039 you know, because they will actually treat the 00:21:56.039 --> 00:21:59.720 caviar with, you know, respect and quality. It's 00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:02.299 really hard because you can not open the thing. 00:22:02.460 --> 00:22:05.279 So if you never had caviar before, I will say 00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:07.700 like go to the store instead of buying online, 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:11.519 unless you buy online from, you know, like good 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:14.640 vendor and go to the store and taste also the 00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:17.519 caviar. Because in that case, you're not buying 00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:20.960 a tin of like $200 and then you're not going 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:23.859 to like it. I would say always go for the tasting 00:22:23.859 --> 00:22:27.519 notes. Read them. Probably a caviar that I would 00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:30.579 recommend for anyone that didn't have caviar 00:22:30.579 --> 00:22:33.460 before. And it's not too expensive. It's Kaluga. 00:22:34.259 --> 00:22:37.640 Kaluga, I would say it's my go -to. Start with 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:40.519 Kaluga and then build your way up. Then, etc. 00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:43.519 The Luga. Because in that way, you're not going 00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:45.940 to fail. Like if you don't like, if you don't 00:22:45.940 --> 00:22:48.140 like a luga that it's really fresh and mild, 00:22:48.299 --> 00:22:50.640 probably you're not going to like the others 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:54.859 unless you like something like more briny. Right. 00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:57.700 And then just keep it in your fridge. Don't open 00:22:57.700 --> 00:23:00.880 the thing before time and use mother of pearl 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:03.380 spoons. If you don't have that, like use plastic 00:23:03.380 --> 00:23:07.500 spoons. And if you use metal, consume the caviar 00:23:07.500 --> 00:23:10.299 that same day. That will be my rule. So this 00:23:10.299 --> 00:23:13.279 goes a little bit off topic, but I also wanted 00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:16.460 to know a little bit about your experience at 00:23:16.460 --> 00:23:19.079 the Little Inn at Washington, because that's 00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:23.880 such a legendary restaurant. How was it? It's 00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:27.539 also, I would say, on the countryside. It's not 00:23:27.539 --> 00:23:33.059 near a big city or anything. The Inn at Little 00:23:33.059 --> 00:23:36.680 Washington, it's like a dream. A fairy tale, 00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:40.079 I would say. So I arrived to America and two 00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:42.420 weeks after I was applying to the job already. 00:23:42.740 --> 00:23:45.759 And then they told me like, OK, can you come 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:48.559 for a, you know, a stash? And I'm like, sure. 00:23:48.700 --> 00:23:51.880 So I see the location and it's located in a national 00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:56.440 park. So it's like really outside in the country 00:23:56.440 --> 00:24:00.240 and it's in a town. And that's why the name that 00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:03.309 it's called Little Washington. And basically 00:24:03.309 --> 00:24:06.849 Patrick O 'Connell now owns the whole town. Well, 00:24:06.950 --> 00:24:09.529 it's a really small town, but it's like a culinary 00:24:09.529 --> 00:24:13.170 experience since you start like your drive there. 00:24:13.329 --> 00:24:17.930 So I arrived and I started with a stash. And 00:24:17.930 --> 00:24:20.930 I didn't know that they were known to have one 00:24:20.930 --> 00:24:23.930 of the most beautiful kitchens to work in the 00:24:23.930 --> 00:24:27.289 world. So just imagine my reaction. It's like 00:24:27.289 --> 00:24:30.970 being inside a castle. I remember as a young 00:24:30.970 --> 00:24:34.349 apprentice, somebody went there, like a blogger, 00:24:34.369 --> 00:24:36.829 I'm talking about 20 years ago, and made pictures 00:24:36.829 --> 00:24:40.410 of the whole kitchen and really like of the people 00:24:40.410 --> 00:24:45.569 working there with this Dalmatian pants. Yeah, 00:24:45.569 --> 00:24:49.049 no, I was like, where am I? And I just arrived 00:24:49.049 --> 00:24:51.730 to America, right? Like it was like, oh yeah, 00:24:51.769 --> 00:24:54.950 I'm going to get this job. So excited. And then 00:24:54.950 --> 00:24:57.740 I go there. It was the most beautiful kitchen. 00:24:57.859 --> 00:25:01.039 Everybody had a Dalmatian apron. And then on 00:25:01.039 --> 00:25:04.039 the wall, you can see a big painting. Like it's 00:25:04.039 --> 00:25:06.920 like probably two meters. And it's Patrick O 00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:09.640 'Connell with his two dogs that are Dalmatians. 00:25:09.720 --> 00:25:13.319 And that's why he has those aprons. And then 00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:16.500 it just like every day just felt like a fairy 00:25:16.500 --> 00:25:19.339 tale, I would say, like out of your imagination. 00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:22.819 And then one day I saw the movie of Patrick and 00:25:22.819 --> 00:25:26.039 he says, like, every time I do this. I want to 00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:28.619 see my life and I need for it to feel like a 00:25:28.619 --> 00:25:31.980 movie. And I will say he really achieved that. 00:25:32.500 --> 00:25:36.819 Working there taught me so much. You always have 00:25:36.819 --> 00:25:40.000 to start on prep. So you start in the mornings. 00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:43.500 After two weeks, they moved me to the hotline. 00:25:44.029 --> 00:25:47.309 uh to be the cook for the hotline in the mornings 00:25:47.309 --> 00:25:51.250 and during lunch and i was there for probably 00:25:51.250 --> 00:25:54.430 like eight months and then i moved to dinner 00:25:54.430 --> 00:25:57.049 service that is when you know that you are like 00:25:57.049 --> 00:26:00.710 good you know like finally because there's only 00:26:00.710 --> 00:26:05.480 seven line cooks Yeah, there's only seven line 00:26:05.480 --> 00:26:09.059 cooks and everybody has their different stations. 00:26:09.500 --> 00:26:12.279 Patrick lives across the street, so he goes for 00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:15.480 dinner service every day. Literally, he goes 00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:19.740 every day and just working there. Everybody had 00:26:19.740 --> 00:26:23.339 like a purpose, sense of urgency. There's perfection. 00:26:23.559 --> 00:26:27.490 We had three sous chefs during each shift. And 00:26:27.490 --> 00:26:31.609 one basically was just walking around the kitchen. 00:26:31.710 --> 00:26:34.650 There's an island and there's only seven cooks. 00:26:34.710 --> 00:26:36.769 And you can hear him like saying like, hey, this 00:26:36.769 --> 00:26:39.549 is not, you know, you could improve this. You 00:26:39.549 --> 00:26:42.029 could improve that. It wasn't even like about, 00:26:42.150 --> 00:26:44.789 you know, not making mistakes. It was making 00:26:44.789 --> 00:26:47.670 things like great and amazing. Before we put 00:26:47.670 --> 00:26:50.829 anything in a container or in a bag, there had 00:26:50.829 --> 00:26:53.069 to be a tasting with a chef, like even with. 00:26:53.450 --> 00:26:56.730 salted butter that will go on a piping bag everything 00:26:56.730 --> 00:27:00.710 has to have flavor build up as we said salt and 00:27:00.710 --> 00:27:04.970 sugar in every dish even like if it's a juice 00:27:04.970 --> 00:27:08.809 just building that flavor the sense of urgency 00:27:08.809 --> 00:27:12.230 everybody cares deeply about what they are doing 00:27:12.230 --> 00:27:14.890 and you feel really proud about that and that's 00:27:14.890 --> 00:27:16.829 where my journey with caviar started actually 00:27:16.829 --> 00:27:19.809 because I was in charge of putting the caviar 00:27:19.809 --> 00:27:23.990 away And we had so many different things. And 00:27:23.990 --> 00:27:26.369 I had to give the caviar to each station and 00:27:26.369 --> 00:27:28.829 tell them like, okay, here's your caviar, you 00:27:28.829 --> 00:27:32.609 know, be careful. And like pulling the caviar 00:27:32.609 --> 00:27:35.490 away, doing tastings. That's when my journey 00:27:35.490 --> 00:27:38.009 with caviar actually started because I had to 00:27:38.009 --> 00:27:40.950 then pick up the caviar from each station, see 00:27:40.950 --> 00:27:45.390 how much it weighs and pull it away gently. Like 00:27:45.390 --> 00:27:47.630 I was like so obsessed with that because that 00:27:47.630 --> 00:27:52.009 was my job, right? besides cooking and everything. 00:27:52.269 --> 00:27:55.369 So that's when actually my journey with caviar 00:27:55.369 --> 00:27:59.470 started. I will 100 % go back there one day. 00:27:59.710 --> 00:28:03.430 And you mentioned that he basically owns the 00:28:03.430 --> 00:28:06.609 town. Because I can think of, for example, French 00:28:06.609 --> 00:28:09.450 Laundry, that he has this kitchen to prepare 00:28:09.450 --> 00:28:13.349 the Bocuse d 'Or team around and farms and things. 00:28:13.990 --> 00:28:17.609 What's the case in the Little Inn? Oh, the Little 00:28:17.609 --> 00:28:23.059 Inn, basically, There's Kodash's. So he owns 00:28:23.059 --> 00:28:26.400 basically the town. And every Kodash or house 00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:29.039 has like a different concept. So in Atlanta, 00:28:29.180 --> 00:28:33.640 Washington, also it's a hotel. Yeah, it's a Relais 00:28:33.640 --> 00:28:36.660 Chateau also, right? Exactly. Yeah, it's a Relais 00:28:36.660 --> 00:28:40.799 Chateau. And every room in the hotel has like 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:44.319 a chef's name. So I stayed once in Julia Child 00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:46.940 and you can see like her pots or things like 00:28:46.940 --> 00:28:49.799 that, Thomas Keller. And then in the town, you 00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:52.859 have different houses that have a different concept 00:28:52.859 --> 00:28:55.930 as well. That's basically surrounding the hotel. 00:28:56.130 --> 00:28:59.150 And then you have places where you can do like 00:28:59.150 --> 00:29:01.890 events. And then we have a farm where we have 00:29:01.890 --> 00:29:05.569 like llamas. We have also like beautiful, like 00:29:05.569 --> 00:29:09.210 French style gardens around the restaurant. It's 00:29:09.210 --> 00:29:12.450 just amazing. And then everybody that works there 00:29:12.450 --> 00:29:15.089 basically lives there. So they give you housing. 00:29:15.710 --> 00:29:18.609 basically really affordable. So I used to live 00:29:18.609 --> 00:29:22.470 with like seven crazy line cooks, you know, and 00:29:22.470 --> 00:29:25.210 we'll like cook every day. There's a lot of outdoor 00:29:25.210 --> 00:29:29.170 spaces. So we used to do like barbecues. It's 00:29:29.170 --> 00:29:31.910 just like, basically, if you work there, that's 00:29:31.910 --> 00:29:35.549 your life. And that's your reality. Even like 00:29:35.549 --> 00:29:38.130 the nearest supermarket was like half an hour 00:29:38.130 --> 00:29:43.150 drive. So that's your life. Reality is there. 00:29:44.539 --> 00:29:49.019 Yeah, I mean, the town is beautiful. The houses 00:29:49.019 --> 00:29:52.119 that are surrounding are also. And it's just 00:29:52.119 --> 00:29:54.779 a really great experience to immerse yourself 00:29:54.779 --> 00:29:58.680 into that. And for people to drive also, you 00:29:58.680 --> 00:30:01.319 know, and get there like during COVID. I think 00:30:01.319 --> 00:30:04.740 we closed only like for three weeks because people 00:30:04.740 --> 00:30:08.319 kept keep coming. Like it never stopped. And 00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:10.579 people from like, you know, Korea, they first 00:30:10.579 --> 00:30:14.160 have to arrive to D .C. or like. another airport 00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:18.839 in you know in near virginia but then you have 00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:22.079 to drive three hours to get there wow for me 00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:24.940 that always always impressed me and that's that 00:30:24.940 --> 00:30:29.099 you know three michelin you really travel to 00:30:29.099 --> 00:30:35.039 go and have that experience yeah so it really 00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:38.000 sounds like a like a gastronomic disneyland somehow 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:43.519 it was actually uh before that i got a Like one 00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:46.900 week before that sous chef job in D .C., it was 00:30:46.900 --> 00:30:49.619 my first sous chef job. And I was working there 00:30:49.619 --> 00:30:51.759 for a week. And then I received like the news 00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:54.019 for like, you know, do you want to come for a 00:30:54.019 --> 00:30:56.200 stash? And I'm like, you know what? I'm just 00:30:56.200 --> 00:30:59.200 going to go and see. But I'm going to stay in 00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:01.500 D .C. because I don't see myself living like, 00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:06.720 you know, so far away. And then once I arrived 00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:09.559 there, I was like, wow, this is what it means 00:31:09.559 --> 00:31:13.940 to. take your life and to be a chef and to be 00:31:13.940 --> 00:31:16.759 in the hospitality world. And this is the dream. 00:31:16.839 --> 00:31:21.140 You know, this is the goal. And I resigned the 00:31:21.140 --> 00:31:25.140 next day. Wow. Amazing. And I left and I, yeah, 00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:32.480 and then I started living there. That's it for 00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:34.900 this week's episode of Putt Lock Food Talks. 00:31:34.900 --> 00:31:37.279 If you like what we're doing, make sure to subscribe 00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:39.539 to the podcast so you never miss an episode. 00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:41.980 You can also find us on Instagram and TikTok 00:31:41.980 --> 00:31:45.500 as potluckfoodtalks. The show airs every Monday.