You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Hi,
everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. I'm
here with Phil Walther, straight from Dubai.
Yeah, good, man. How does it feel to be back
in the Middle East? It feels like being inside
of a big fucking air fryer. 37 degrees. The sun
is shining 23 hours a day. No, it's good. It's
quite nice. I mean, it's hot as fuck, but the
city has its own kind of like flair between like
really polished and kind of chaotic. And I remember
the first time that I came here because I came
here the first time in, when would it have been?
2021, 22? Yeah. I remember really like needing
some time to adjust to what was going on. And
now it's kind of like I come back and it feels
very familiar, kind of very easygoing in a way.
So today we're going to talk about umami. Umami,
umami. Umami. So what do you know about umami?
Well, umami is the mystical flavor, no? So is
it? The same with you. Was that the last flavor
you learned about? Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah,
I think everybody, right? You get to know what
sour, sweet, salty, or bitter is, but sweet,
whatever. But umami, you're already a grown -up
when you start using that word or understanding
what it even is, right? Yeah, totally. I wonder
how it is because, I mean, the word umami, it
originates from Japan. It was coined by the Japanese.
And I wonder if they learn about it as a fundamental
flavor as children also, because for us, it's
like the big four, right? It's salty, sour, sweet,
and bitter, right? And then umami is this...
um this mystical thing that a lot of people i
remember when i was starting to cook people really
started getting into it and this term started
getting thrown about a lot more everybody was
kind of trying to describe in words um what it
is i still find it hard to to talk about and
to describe exactly what it is for people who
have never heard this term or never like experienced
umami people that know you just say umami they're
like ah yeah of course it's a sort of depth of
flavor but it's quite Difficult to pinpoint it.
I agree 100%. I would even say people who know
what it is sometimes will do mistakes. Like,
no, that's not exactly it, right? Like, I myself,
there were things when I was doing research,
I found out things that I would normally associate
with umami. Like, for example, Maillard reaction.
Not necessarily, right? No, no, no. So also with
what you said, interestingly enough, so the compound,
because it's a chemical compound, it was first
discovered by Kikunao Weikera, 1908 in Japan,
a chemist. 1908? Yes. 908. And that's when the
word was coined. I mean, because I do understand
why there is this misconception, even in Japan,
which is where the word comes from, because it's
very easy to think something is flavorful or
salty when it's actually umami, because the things
overlap each other and it's hard to separate
them. And that's what happens, for example, that
actually the experience this guy had is that
he was... Identifying something that kombu had,
but only kombu, that was not the saltiness. It
was something else. And that's when, yeah, it's
glutamic acid is the compound, right? And it's
something, for example, that you will find all
over, let's say, for example, in Italian cuisine.
You have a puttanesca, you have olives, you have
tomato, you have anchovies, you have parmesan.
All of those things are heavy umami carriers.
Maybe you say, yeah, it's something flavorful
and salty, but you don't have that exact, like,
characteristic that umami has that is, yeah,
it's hard to describe. It's like something very
flavorful that you really feel in your mouth,
for example, when you eat, like, an anchovy or
tomato paste or tomato juice or parmesan. If
you take parmesan and you think not about the
saltiness but about something else, that flavorfulness,
inside it that's it that's umami yeah yeah that's
very very well put and people want to kind of
experience the sensation a little bit you know
there's like parmesan is a great example of this
but i mean if you've ever tried pure msg that's
basically super powering the umami right and
it's a very very strange sensation if you've
never had this if you it's kind of like you know
you take a little bit of salt you put it on your
tongue It tastes salty, right? If you take a
little bit of like pure crystallized MSG and
you let it dissolve in your tongue, you have
this like mouth -watering kind of sensation.
Not sort of like Szechuan pepper would do or
stuff. Other things can be mouth -watering too,
but just this like very deep, full, round kind
of tastiness in a way. It's crazy, like, once
you look into that, how many things you realize
have a natural amount of glutamic acid, you know,
as in, like you were saying, kind of parmesan
or tomatoes, you know, kombu. That's why dashi,
for me, dashi is the quintessence of umami in
the way that I've experienced it. I've really,
like, kind of realized for myself what I feel
like umami entails. When I was in Japan for the
first time, and it was the first time I had a
really, really well -made dashi. Because it wasn't,
and it's interesting also to experience this
with not a high level of salt. Because you can
have something with umami and a lot of salt and
it's very tasty. But to have a low level of salt,
which in our understanding often is kind of like...
It's going to be a little bit less tasty if it's
not seasoned to the top. But then to have something
with a very, very high amount of glutamic acid
is very interesting because even though the saltiness
is very low, you have this full on flavor like
bomb that hits you very, very deep. It makes
you salivate. It makes you like really like want
more of it. Yeah, that's exactly it. Well, you
mentioned MSG. Also, interestingly enough, this
guy, I will read the name again, Kikunao Aikeda,
was the guy that patented MSG and founded Ajinomoto.
Same guy. Ah, there you go. Yeah, so this became,
it's a crazy process. And interestingly enough,
it's extracted from sugar. So sugar is processed
and into, like, I don't know, like some kind
of water -wide chemical process. And you extract
crystals of MSG, which is pure. glutamic acid.
And this has become like, yeah, it's like a multinational
company. In Peru, it's already part of the standard
ingredients. And also something worth mentioning,
MSG has gotten all this bad reputation and all
of these things are like conspiracy theories
that are not scientifically proven. a chinese
restaurant syndrome that is associated to msg
and even like these campaigns of this is a restaurant
without msg because we don't use those evil chemicals
or this and that and that's just uh it's not
true yeah exactly i think there's a lot of racism
attached to these sorts of absolutely movements
you know this like whole chinese restaurant syndrome
you know is part of the I mean, it really feels
like it's part of this like Asian hate kind of
thing that was happening. I mean, especially
in America. And yeah, it's a glutamic acid and
MSG is a, like I said earlier, like a natural
component that's found, you know, like for example,
kombu. Kombu is, you know, full of it. Have you
ever had shio kombu? The like salted little shreds
of kombu. Fucking hell. That stuff is like, it's
unbelievable. So basically these are like little
shreds of kombu that are like dehydrated. And
the natural sort of like glutamic, glutamate,
it crusts the outside of it. It looks like it's
almost like candied. And you eat it and it's
just like a flavor bomb of MSG. It's super, super
nice. You have to try taking a little bit of
shio kombu. and putting it into like some broth
like a clear chicken stock or dashi and just
letting it infuse you know just letting the shio
kombu infuse the broth a little bit and then
you need to try it it's like it's like putting
your food on steroids basically yeah yeah or
just adding energy to fries incredible will be
the best fries you've ever had i've never tried
that oh that's so good i've never tried that
So I'm reading here at Flavorama by Ariel Johnson,
and the heaviest carriers of MSG are kombu, number
one, has 3 ,000 milligrams per 100 grams. But
then we have Marmite, Parmigiano -Reggiano, kelp
in general, fish sauce, nori, blue cheeses like
Roquefort, gang -yang, anchovies, dried shiitake,
gruyere, miso, all those things are... But even
in vegetables like asparagus, even potatoes or
sweet potatoes, you know, that thing in the background
that makes us, you would describe as flavorful,
that's the glutamic acid. And also, interestingly
enough, there are other things, like other compounds
that enhance the way it interacts with your taste
buds, and it just makes it stronger. That's why
so many things interact like in... For example,
in parmesan, it's just not the glutamic acid.
There are more things going on that make this
thing, like, you know, explode in your mouth
if you have, like, a whole spoonful of grated
parmesan. Yeah, of course. I mean, parmesan is
a great example because it's like there's so
many things happening together. There's the texture,
there's the glutamic acid, there's the salt,
there's the fat, you know. That's why it's, you
know, eating a piece of parmesan cheese is so
extremely tasty. All of those things, they're
tasty, you know. Fat makes things tasty, you
know, salt makes things tasty to an extent. MSG
does. And that's why Parmesan, yeah, Parmesan
is just like, again, it's amazing. I love using
Parmesan as like a secret ingredient to season
certain things. Like, for example, if you have
like a, I shouldn't be saying this, God, I do
these bastardized things that I do in the kitchen.
But like, if you have like a mayonnaise, you
want to superpower it, I just like microplane
some Parmesan into it and like blitz it into
it. Or like a beurre blanc. i like grate some
parmesan into it like when it's hot and then
just like foam it up just to give it this like
and you can't taste that it's like parmesan you
know but it's like uh just um bang on yeah i
love i love doing that adding yeah umami enhancers
that you don't notice uh if nobody told you but
once somebody tells you you say oh yeah i get
it i feel the parmesan but if nobody tells you
you won't you would never say so And, for example,
I talked before here about adding, for example,
kimchi juice to a puttanesca. Yes. And just adding
more of the same stuff that is already in there,
right? Like I'm just enhancing. And it blends
well with all the other flavors. Or, for example,
now we made the Italians cry. I can also make
the Spaniards cry. I would do these croquetas
where in the vegetable I would add some Japanese
soy sauce and some tomato paste. And also the
roasted butter has also lots of umami, beurre
nocet. So it had beurre nocet, it had some tomato
paste, it had some soy sauce, and of course,
Iberico ham, which is also like a carrier of
umami. So I think a well -versed chef will always
find ways to add umami if he wants to something.
Absolutely. I think it's a real skill. And I
think everybody has their own little tricks in
their back pocket. For example, I have something
similar. I have this recipe. It started here
in Dubai, actually. I wanted to make a mushroom
espuma. But it turned into an all -around recipe
for mushroom. Ragoos, mushroom cream sauces,
whether they're heavy or light, whether I want
like a mushroom foam, very light mushroom foam,
but I always start the same way where I fry mushrooms
until I have a lot of color. So they have a lot
of Maillard. Then I deglaze with soy, right?
So they like the soy sauce, like caramelizes
a little bit and like it intensifies and reduces.
And then I add stock and whatever, and you can
add cream or cream fresh, but then very important,
they add a little bit of ponzu. And I add in
the end katsubushi to like infuse and some like
dried shiitakes and ideally some kombu also just
to infuse. And then I like blitz it, I strain
it. And you can't really tell this, like the
katsubushi, for example, has this like little
bit ham -like flavor, but you can't really pinpoint
it. It's like full on mushroom flavor, you know?
Obviously the shiitake, umami, soy sauce, umami,
ponzu, umami, and a little bit of sourness together
with like the fat. And it makes the like most
tasty, super powered mushroom sauce that basically
just tastes like mushrooms, right? But again,
it tastes like mushrooms on steroids. Yeah, just
like similar to that, I used to make this for
like the last, I don't know, like three, four
years. I make the sauce that I've used for all
sorts of stuff. Actually, I've been making this
for like 10 years. I made it the first time when
I was in Lorea in Mexico. I make a very, very
intense tomato water by just like seasoning and
salting tomatoes and letting them drip. So I
usually, I do like a express version nowadays,
but I take very nice tasting tomatoes, quite
a lot of salt, garlic, some sort of onion. Usually
I use like a little bit of spring onion. And
then like often I put in herbs, like a little
bit of coriander. I blitz it just quickly. And
then I let it hang. So just the water drips out.
And then that water I season with a little bit
of garum. Just a little bit. And like plenty,
maybe a pinch of sugar if they need it. Because
again, it like superpowers it. And a pinch of
salt. And then I thicken it lightly with xanthan
gum. You get this like velvety tomato, like seafood
tomato sauce. But you taste it and it's like,
it's like fucking Arnold Schwarzenegger as a
tomato, you know? It's just like, it's out there
to kick your fucking ass, you know? If you've
ever had a nightmare where a tomato is coming
into your bedroom, your sleep paralysis demon
as a tomato, to kick your ass, that's basically
what it tastes like. Desserts. Desserts with
umami. For example, this trick of adding a little
bit of blue cheese to the cheesecake or parmesan
to the cheesecake, basically you're adding a
layer of umami to the whole thing. This dessert
of Echavarri, the grilled smoked sheep milk ice
cream with beetroot juice. That's umami with
umami, basically. Beetroot has also like a fresh
beetroot juice. Also super... stimulating in
in your tongue totally yeah because i mean beetroot
beetroot juice has a lot of like minerals and
salts and sugar you know and that's all like
that it makes it very very complex a lot of people
will think of beetroot juice is like oh it's
like a vegetable juice but if you look at what
it actually is there's so much in there that
that'll make you that'll make your mouth explode
yeah incredibly complex and having it raw It
also has its own, you feel that it's alive. So
many microaromas happening around there. Chocolate.
Chocolate is umami, basically. Have you tried
chocolate with blue cheese? I don't think I have.
Like a ganache of chocolate and blue cheese?
Again, it's umami with umami. You know, like
toffee. Again, more umami. concentrated dairies
in general i would say or cured dairies uh generated
umami oh yeah absolutely you know like what um
what you just reminded me of with the toffee
i think i talked about this before but yeast
yeast roasted yeast that is an umami bomb i mean
there's a reason why it's being used as an alternative
for like parmesan and vegan cooking and stuff
like that and i'm 100 certain i've talked about
the caramelized yeast butter that i um sometimes
make for certain things because that for me also
it's like the it's full full i don't actually
know if you could call it umami but it's definitely
into that direction you know geez but you mean
like fresh yeast or roasted yeast because roasted
yeast or yeast extracts that's umami by the book
for sure yeah but you mean the fresh one that's
what i mean no no that's the one i mean the roasted
one ah yeah no no no that's umami 100 yeah yeah
leche de tigre you know like i think that like
the somehow the the citrus fruits extract like
this juices from the fish that makes it this
thing that explodes in your mouth you know um
and yeah i mean seaweeds all sorts of seaweeds
it's like seaweeds are such an incredible world
of ingredients honestly i think it's like still
super underrated what you can do with it When
I was in Japan just now a few months ago, I ate
so many nice things. But the thing that I would
pick as the best one was this side dish that
I ate for breakfast. I'm pretty sure I talked
about it as well. But I'll just mention it again
because it was so extremely good. Where it was
just braised turnips with umeboshi in kombu dashi.
And she explained how she was doing it. And it's
literally, she's like, I'll make a cold infused
kombu dashi. And then I take the turnips. I put
them in. I cook them a little bit until they're
soft. Then I put in some umeboshi. I'll cook
them until they're nice and flavorsome. And then
that's it. And then she spoons it in. And you
were drinking this broth and eating the like
sweet, deep turnips. And like... It was such
a, it wasn't like super, you know, we tend to
always like over season things. Like we always
season to the top until you can't season anymore.
And there everything was a little bit more mellow,
but it was nice because like these super umami
qualities, they would like come out more, you
know, and you would like, it wasn't like saltiness
that you tasted. It was just a deep, deep hitting,
soul tickling umami, you know. Yeah, I was thinking
that there are also things that are so present
in our cuisines, you know, because a lot of people
say like umami, this mysterious fifth flavor
from Japan. And I mean, if you think about it,
like a good source of umami is just chicken stock
or meat stock, right? Oh, yeah. Or tomato sauce,
which are all over our cuisines, you know, like
it's all over the place. And yeah, I would say
this is something we define as flavorful in our
day -to -day language because we don't know how
to separate it or how to identify it properly.
Yeah, I mean, the only thing that the Japanese
did is they defined a word for it and they researched
it, they singled it out. They characterized it,
exactly, yeah. They characterized it. I mean,
you have to say that the Japanese cooking is
very much, to a large extent, about umami. Umami
is definitely something that's very, very prevalent
in Japanese cooking. But as you say, it's kind
of like everybody has it. Everybody has umami
in their natural cuisine. And just because one
country coined the term doesn't mean that it's
exclusive to that country and that only soy sauce
and only kombu and only katsubushi have umami.
It's definitely, I think, one of the biggest
misconceptions about umami. And is there enough
umami anywhere? I mean, if you could add more,
would you always add more? Is there a limit?
Yes, I think there definitely is. I think you
need to, in order to make that experiment, I
don't know if you've ever added too much MSG
to something, but take a chicken stock and add
MSG to it and then taste it and just keep adding
a teaspoon of MSG and see what happens. And when
your roommate finds you with pupils as large
as fucking tea sauces staring at the ceiling,
chicken stock over your shirt, then you know
you've added too much. Okay, okay, okay. I'll
have to try that. Sounds fun. I'm sure you will.
Because I don't know, for example, sometimes
I do like a chicken stock and I would just...
add a an instant miso soup on top of it you know
like this that come with seaweed and miso and
dehydrated onions and everything and then i have
like this super rich miso soup and basically
i'm adding umami to the umami you know like yeah
Also, these things, like a puttanesca, you have
tomato sauce that has anchovies and olives and
parmesan. You're just adding more and more of
it. That's why I'm asking, is there a limit?
Or can you always add more? Well, I don't know.
I don't know. I guess you actually just said
something very interesting, because I think it's
a no -go in Italy to add parmesan to a puttanesca.
Oh, really? Yeah, I think there's this rule that
you don't add cheese to seafood pastas. But is
Sputanesca considered a seafood pasta? Well,
it has anchovies. It has anchovies, but I mean,
I think that applies if you're doing like a vongole,
you know, or something. Because anchovies, yeah,
it's seafood, but it's a very good friend of
parmesan. Yeah, for sure. I mean, don't get me
wrong. I will add parmesan onto any kind of pasta
that I eat. No matter, no matter what, like,
you know, and you can get after me however you
want. I don't care who I'm with. If it's fucking
Massimo Bottura or whatever, I will always be
happy to add Parmesan onto my pasta because Parmesan
is just fucking tasty. And I think that if it's
good, you should just do it, right? Like I would,
I would also add Parmesan on top of like spaghetti
vongole. I have no, I give no fucks. I don't
see what the point is. I just know that it's
a rule and I wanted to hear your opinion about
it. Sorry, sorry about what I was just checking.
And yeah, actually, it's true what you just said.
The Italians don't add parmesan to the puttanesca.
Sorry, what was the question? No, I said that
I don't care about these sorts of rules. I was
just wondering what your opinion on it was. I
don't trust any rules. I think rules were invented
by someone at some point, you know, and especially
eating rules. I've heard all this kind of, or
like fashion rules. I've heard people saying
like, no, you can't combine dark blue with black.
You just don't do that. And I'm like, yeah, says
who? Yeah, exactly. And I think that's like colors
combination. I think exactly the same applies
to flavor combinations. Nobody can tell you what
you can or can't do. Because there will always
be exceptions. You can't have a red wine with
seafood if it works, right? Yeah, I absolutely
agree. Totally. I think if it's tasty, you should
just do it. Yeah, exactly. It just has to work.
Because not every red wine works with any seafood.
But I'm pretty sure there are matches where it
works. I think it's okay to not really understand
umami fully. I think it's something that you
should search for, though. You know, like kind
of step out of the box of what your understanding
of food is and kind of maybe try to look for
it in places that you don't. Like next time you
eat a piece of parmesan, stop thinking about
the saltiness and this and that. And like, you
know, think about the umami and you'll see that
you'll find it in a lot of things very, very
prevalently. And then you can use that to your
advantage and incorporate it more knowingly into
your cooking. Yeah, I would say it is that thing
that you crave when your mouth waters, right?
Like if you have like a steak in front of you
and your mouth starts watering, you're probably
experiencing or craving umami. That's what it
is. That's it for this week's episode of Potluck
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