WEBVTT 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:10.140 You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Hi, 00:00:10.220 --> 00:00:13.339 everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. I'm 00:00:13.339 --> 00:00:17.699 here with Phil Walther, straight from Dubai. 00:00:19.079 --> 00:00:22.420 Yeah, good, man. How does it feel to be back 00:00:22.420 --> 00:00:26.640 in the Middle East? It feels like being inside 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:31.850 of a big fucking air fryer. 37 degrees. The sun 00:00:31.850 --> 00:00:35.390 is shining 23 hours a day. No, it's good. It's 00:00:35.390 --> 00:00:39.450 quite nice. I mean, it's hot as fuck, but the 00:00:39.450 --> 00:00:43.670 city has its own kind of like flair between like 00:00:43.670 --> 00:00:46.429 really polished and kind of chaotic. And I remember 00:00:46.429 --> 00:00:48.490 the first time that I came here because I came 00:00:48.490 --> 00:00:51.390 here the first time in, when would it have been? 00:00:51.810 --> 00:00:57.039 2021, 22? Yeah. I remember really like needing 00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:00.140 some time to adjust to what was going on. And 00:01:00.140 --> 00:01:02.899 now it's kind of like I come back and it feels 00:01:02.899 --> 00:01:05.780 very familiar, kind of very easygoing in a way. 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:11.620 So today we're going to talk about umami. Umami, 00:01:11.620 --> 00:01:16.599 umami. Umami. So what do you know about umami? 00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:23.260 Well, umami is the mystical flavor, no? So is 00:01:23.260 --> 00:01:26.579 it? The same with you. Was that the last flavor 00:01:26.579 --> 00:01:30.799 you learned about? Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, 00:01:30.879 --> 00:01:32.939 I think everybody, right? You get to know what 00:01:32.939 --> 00:01:39.900 sour, sweet, salty, or bitter is, but sweet, 00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:44.000 whatever. But umami, you're already a grown -up 00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:47.340 when you start using that word or understanding 00:01:47.340 --> 00:01:50.450 what it even is, right? Yeah, totally. I wonder 00:01:50.450 --> 00:01:52.689 how it is because, I mean, the word umami, it 00:01:52.689 --> 00:01:57.790 originates from Japan. It was coined by the Japanese. 00:01:57.930 --> 00:02:00.549 And I wonder if they learn about it as a fundamental 00:02:00.549 --> 00:02:03.109 flavor as children also, because for us, it's 00:02:03.109 --> 00:02:08.090 like the big four, right? It's salty, sour, sweet, 00:02:08.110 --> 00:02:12.189 and bitter, right? And then umami is this... 00:02:12.939 --> 00:02:16.500 um this mystical thing that a lot of people i 00:02:16.500 --> 00:02:18.659 remember when i was starting to cook people really 00:02:18.659 --> 00:02:21.099 started getting into it and this term started 00:02:21.099 --> 00:02:23.780 getting thrown about a lot more everybody was 00:02:23.780 --> 00:02:28.219 kind of trying to describe in words um what it 00:02:28.219 --> 00:02:31.520 is i still find it hard to to talk about and 00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:33.460 to describe exactly what it is for people who 00:02:33.460 --> 00:02:36.180 have never heard this term or never like experienced 00:02:36.180 --> 00:02:38.259 umami people that know you just say umami they're 00:02:38.259 --> 00:02:40.560 like ah yeah of course it's a sort of depth of 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:43.400 flavor but it's quite Difficult to pinpoint it. 00:02:43.879 --> 00:02:48.020 I agree 100%. I would even say people who know 00:02:48.020 --> 00:02:51.719 what it is sometimes will do mistakes. Like, 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:55.319 no, that's not exactly it, right? Like, I myself, 00:02:55.620 --> 00:02:58.259 there were things when I was doing research, 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:00.699 I found out things that I would normally associate 00:03:00.699 --> 00:03:04.900 with umami. Like, for example, Maillard reaction. 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:11.340 Not necessarily, right? No, no, no. So also with 00:03:11.340 --> 00:03:14.699 what you said, interestingly enough, so the compound, 00:03:15.020 --> 00:03:18.400 because it's a chemical compound, it was first 00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:26.439 discovered by Kikunao Weikera, 1908 in Japan, 00:03:26.699 --> 00:03:33.659 a chemist. 1908? Yes. 908. And that's when the 00:03:33.659 --> 00:03:38.530 word was coined. I mean, because I do understand 00:03:38.530 --> 00:03:43.229 why there is this misconception, even in Japan, 00:03:43.449 --> 00:03:46.930 which is where the word comes from, because it's 00:03:46.930 --> 00:03:52.169 very easy to think something is flavorful or 00:03:52.169 --> 00:03:54.770 salty when it's actually umami, because the things 00:03:54.770 --> 00:03:57.710 overlap each other and it's hard to separate 00:03:57.710 --> 00:04:00.330 them. And that's what happens, for example, that 00:04:00.330 --> 00:04:02.930 actually the experience this guy had is that 00:04:02.930 --> 00:04:06.189 he was... Identifying something that kombu had, 00:04:06.349 --> 00:04:09.409 but only kombu, that was not the saltiness. It 00:04:09.409 --> 00:04:12.990 was something else. And that's when, yeah, it's 00:04:12.990 --> 00:04:17.689 glutamic acid is the compound, right? And it's 00:04:17.689 --> 00:04:19.610 something, for example, that you will find all 00:04:19.610 --> 00:04:23.509 over, let's say, for example, in Italian cuisine. 00:04:23.870 --> 00:04:26.930 You have a puttanesca, you have olives, you have 00:04:26.930 --> 00:04:29.550 tomato, you have anchovies, you have parmesan. 00:04:29.589 --> 00:04:32.529 All of those things are heavy umami carriers. 00:04:34.339 --> 00:04:36.379 Maybe you say, yeah, it's something flavorful 00:04:36.379 --> 00:04:39.100 and salty, but you don't have that exact, like, 00:04:39.100 --> 00:04:42.660 characteristic that umami has that is, yeah, 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:45.480 it's hard to describe. It's like something very 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.459 flavorful that you really feel in your mouth, 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:52.680 for example, when you eat, like, an anchovy or 00:04:52.680 --> 00:04:57.319 tomato paste or tomato juice or parmesan. If 00:04:57.319 --> 00:04:59.319 you take parmesan and you think not about the 00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:02.779 saltiness but about something else, that flavorfulness, 00:05:03.529 --> 00:05:07.910 inside it that's it that's umami yeah yeah that's 00:05:07.910 --> 00:05:11.990 very very well put and people want to kind of 00:05:11.990 --> 00:05:14.189 experience the sensation a little bit you know 00:05:14.189 --> 00:05:16.569 there's like parmesan is a great example of this 00:05:16.569 --> 00:05:21.750 but i mean if you've ever tried pure msg that's 00:05:21.750 --> 00:05:24.970 basically super powering the umami right and 00:05:24.970 --> 00:05:26.910 it's a very very strange sensation if you've 00:05:26.910 --> 00:05:29.149 never had this if you it's kind of like you know 00:05:29.149 --> 00:05:30.649 you take a little bit of salt you put it on your 00:05:30.649 --> 00:05:33.050 tongue It tastes salty, right? If you take a 00:05:33.050 --> 00:05:35.709 little bit of like pure crystallized MSG and 00:05:35.709 --> 00:05:37.329 you let it dissolve in your tongue, you have 00:05:37.329 --> 00:05:40.709 this like mouth -watering kind of sensation. 00:05:41.430 --> 00:05:43.529 Not sort of like Szechuan pepper would do or 00:05:43.529 --> 00:05:45.230 stuff. Other things can be mouth -watering too, 00:05:45.310 --> 00:05:48.889 but just this like very deep, full, round kind 00:05:48.889 --> 00:05:52.910 of tastiness in a way. It's crazy, like, once 00:05:52.910 --> 00:05:55.569 you look into that, how many things you realize 00:05:55.569 --> 00:05:58.970 have a natural amount of glutamic acid, you know, 00:05:59.009 --> 00:06:00.589 as in, like you were saying, kind of parmesan 00:06:00.589 --> 00:06:06.610 or tomatoes, you know, kombu. That's why dashi, 00:06:06.610 --> 00:06:10.970 for me, dashi is the quintessence of umami in 00:06:10.970 --> 00:06:13.089 the way that I've experienced it. I've really, 00:06:13.129 --> 00:06:16.970 like, kind of realized for myself what I feel 00:06:16.970 --> 00:06:19.899 like umami entails. When I was in Japan for the 00:06:19.899 --> 00:06:22.079 first time, and it was the first time I had a 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:25.060 really, really well -made dashi. Because it wasn't, 00:06:25.060 --> 00:06:27.259 and it's interesting also to experience this 00:06:27.259 --> 00:06:29.620 with not a high level of salt. Because you can 00:06:29.620 --> 00:06:31.360 have something with umami and a lot of salt and 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:34.240 it's very tasty. But to have a low level of salt, 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:36.779 which in our understanding often is kind of like... 00:06:36.920 --> 00:06:38.920 It's going to be a little bit less tasty if it's 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:41.300 not seasoned to the top. But then to have something 00:06:41.300 --> 00:06:43.560 with a very, very high amount of glutamic acid 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:46.500 is very interesting because even though the saltiness 00:06:46.500 --> 00:06:49.939 is very low, you have this full on flavor like 00:06:49.939 --> 00:06:54.740 bomb that hits you very, very deep. It makes 00:06:54.740 --> 00:06:57.579 you salivate. It makes you like really like want 00:06:57.579 --> 00:07:02.339 more of it. Yeah, that's exactly it. Well, you 00:07:02.339 --> 00:07:05.689 mentioned MSG. Also, interestingly enough, this 00:07:05.689 --> 00:07:09.589 guy, I will read the name again, Kikunao Aikeda, 00:07:09.750 --> 00:07:14.009 was the guy that patented MSG and founded Ajinomoto. 00:07:14.129 --> 00:07:18.449 Same guy. Ah, there you go. Yeah, so this became, 00:07:18.649 --> 00:07:22.310 it's a crazy process. And interestingly enough, 00:07:22.550 --> 00:07:29.949 it's extracted from sugar. So sugar is processed 00:07:29.949 --> 00:07:33.389 and into, like, I don't know, like some kind 00:07:33.389 --> 00:07:38.410 of water -wide chemical process. And you extract 00:07:38.410 --> 00:07:43.850 crystals of MSG, which is pure. glutamic acid. 00:07:43.990 --> 00:07:46.449 And this has become like, yeah, it's like a multinational 00:07:46.449 --> 00:07:50.350 company. In Peru, it's already part of the standard 00:07:50.350 --> 00:07:53.209 ingredients. And also something worth mentioning, 00:07:53.490 --> 00:07:58.209 MSG has gotten all this bad reputation and all 00:07:58.209 --> 00:08:00.209 of these things are like conspiracy theories 00:08:00.209 --> 00:08:04.990 that are not scientifically proven. a chinese 00:08:04.990 --> 00:08:07.670 restaurant syndrome that is associated to msg 00:08:07.670 --> 00:08:11.009 and even like these campaigns of this is a restaurant 00:08:11.009 --> 00:08:15.149 without msg because we don't use those evil chemicals 00:08:15.149 --> 00:08:18.889 or this and that and that's just uh it's not 00:08:18.889 --> 00:08:21.810 true yeah exactly i think there's a lot of racism 00:08:21.810 --> 00:08:24.050 attached to these sorts of absolutely movements 00:08:24.050 --> 00:08:26.649 you know this like whole chinese restaurant syndrome 00:08:26.649 --> 00:08:29.029 you know is part of the I mean, it really feels 00:08:29.029 --> 00:08:31.689 like it's part of this like Asian hate kind of 00:08:31.689 --> 00:08:34.129 thing that was happening. I mean, especially 00:08:34.129 --> 00:08:38.750 in America. And yeah, it's a glutamic acid and 00:08:38.750 --> 00:08:42.830 MSG is a, like I said earlier, like a natural 00:08:42.830 --> 00:08:44.870 component that's found, you know, like for example, 00:08:44.870 --> 00:08:47.909 kombu. Kombu is, you know, full of it. Have you 00:08:47.909 --> 00:08:51.440 ever had shio kombu? The like salted little shreds 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:54.580 of kombu. Fucking hell. That stuff is like, it's 00:08:54.580 --> 00:08:56.460 unbelievable. So basically these are like little 00:08:56.460 --> 00:09:00.960 shreds of kombu that are like dehydrated. And 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:05.379 the natural sort of like glutamic, glutamate, 00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:08.340 it crusts the outside of it. It looks like it's 00:09:08.340 --> 00:09:11.059 almost like candied. And you eat it and it's 00:09:11.059 --> 00:09:15.179 just like a flavor bomb of MSG. It's super, super 00:09:15.179 --> 00:09:17.820 nice. You have to try taking a little bit of 00:09:17.820 --> 00:09:20.679 shio kombu. and putting it into like some broth 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:23.720 like a clear chicken stock or dashi and just 00:09:23.720 --> 00:09:26.539 letting it infuse you know just letting the shio 00:09:26.539 --> 00:09:29.600 kombu infuse the broth a little bit and then 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:32.480 you need to try it it's like it's like putting 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:36.159 your food on steroids basically yeah yeah or 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:40.179 just adding energy to fries incredible will be 00:09:40.179 --> 00:09:42.679 the best fries you've ever had i've never tried 00:09:42.679 --> 00:09:45.840 that oh that's so good i've never tried that 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:50.299 So I'm reading here at Flavorama by Ariel Johnson, 00:09:50.500 --> 00:09:56.159 and the heaviest carriers of MSG are kombu, number 00:09:56.159 --> 00:10:00.480 one, has 3 ,000 milligrams per 100 grams. But 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:03.700 then we have Marmite, Parmigiano -Reggiano, kelp 00:10:03.700 --> 00:10:06.700 in general, fish sauce, nori, blue cheeses like 00:10:06.700 --> 00:10:11.580 Roquefort, gang -yang, anchovies, dried shiitake, 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:14.700 gruyere, miso, all those things are... But even 00:10:14.700 --> 00:10:19.259 in vegetables like asparagus, even potatoes or 00:10:19.259 --> 00:10:21.860 sweet potatoes, you know, that thing in the background 00:10:21.860 --> 00:10:24.820 that makes us, you would describe as flavorful, 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:28.480 that's the glutamic acid. And also, interestingly 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:31.340 enough, there are other things, like other compounds 00:10:31.340 --> 00:10:37.220 that enhance the way it interacts with your taste 00:10:37.220 --> 00:10:40.559 buds, and it just makes it stronger. That's why 00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:43.360 so many things interact like in... For example, 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:45.799 in parmesan, it's just not the glutamic acid. 00:10:45.879 --> 00:10:48.279 There are more things going on that make this 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:51.139 thing, like, you know, explode in your mouth 00:10:51.139 --> 00:10:54.879 if you have, like, a whole spoonful of grated 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:57.720 parmesan. Yeah, of course. I mean, parmesan is 00:10:57.720 --> 00:10:59.299 a great example because it's like there's so 00:10:59.299 --> 00:11:01.679 many things happening together. There's the texture, 00:11:01.820 --> 00:11:03.899 there's the glutamic acid, there's the salt, 00:11:04.100 --> 00:11:07.759 there's the fat, you know. That's why it's, you 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:09.779 know, eating a piece of parmesan cheese is so 00:11:09.779 --> 00:11:11.620 extremely tasty. All of those things, they're 00:11:11.620 --> 00:11:14.220 tasty, you know. Fat makes things tasty, you 00:11:14.220 --> 00:11:16.860 know, salt makes things tasty to an extent. MSG 00:11:16.860 --> 00:11:19.320 does. And that's why Parmesan, yeah, Parmesan 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:21.899 is just like, again, it's amazing. I love using 00:11:21.899 --> 00:11:24.320 Parmesan as like a secret ingredient to season 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:27.639 certain things. Like, for example, if you have 00:11:27.639 --> 00:11:30.500 like a, I shouldn't be saying this, God, I do 00:11:30.500 --> 00:11:32.399 these bastardized things that I do in the kitchen. 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:35.659 But like, if you have like a mayonnaise, you 00:11:35.659 --> 00:11:37.559 want to superpower it, I just like microplane 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:39.220 some Parmesan into it and like blitz it into 00:11:39.220 --> 00:11:41.950 it. Or like a beurre blanc. i like grate some 00:11:41.950 --> 00:11:44.389 parmesan into it like when it's hot and then 00:11:44.389 --> 00:11:46.730 just like foam it up just to give it this like 00:11:46.730 --> 00:11:48.610 and you can't taste that it's like parmesan you 00:11:48.610 --> 00:11:53.389 know but it's like uh just um bang on yeah i 00:11:53.389 --> 00:11:57.409 love i love doing that adding yeah umami enhancers 00:11:57.409 --> 00:12:01.149 that you don't notice uh if nobody told you but 00:12:01.149 --> 00:12:03.210 once somebody tells you you say oh yeah i get 00:12:03.210 --> 00:12:05.330 it i feel the parmesan but if nobody tells you 00:12:05.330 --> 00:12:08.320 you won't you would never say so And, for example, 00:12:08.460 --> 00:12:11.980 I talked before here about adding, for example, 00:12:12.019 --> 00:12:15.360 kimchi juice to a puttanesca. Yes. And just adding 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:17.879 more of the same stuff that is already in there, 00:12:18.019 --> 00:12:20.940 right? Like I'm just enhancing. And it blends 00:12:20.940 --> 00:12:24.159 well with all the other flavors. Or, for example, 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:27.259 now we made the Italians cry. I can also make 00:12:27.259 --> 00:12:30.559 the Spaniards cry. I would do these croquetas 00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:33.759 where in the vegetable I would add some Japanese 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:39.320 soy sauce and some tomato paste. And also the 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:43.740 roasted butter has also lots of umami, beurre 00:12:43.740 --> 00:12:47.419 nocet. So it had beurre nocet, it had some tomato 00:12:47.419 --> 00:12:50.000 paste, it had some soy sauce, and of course, 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:53.779 Iberico ham, which is also like a carrier of 00:12:53.779 --> 00:13:00.940 umami. So I think a well -versed chef will always 00:13:00.940 --> 00:13:05.100 find ways to add umami if he wants to something. 00:13:06.139 --> 00:13:09.419 Absolutely. I think it's a real skill. And I 00:13:09.419 --> 00:13:12.840 think everybody has their own little tricks in 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:14.879 their back pocket. For example, I have something 00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:17.740 similar. I have this recipe. It started here 00:13:17.740 --> 00:13:19.419 in Dubai, actually. I wanted to make a mushroom 00:13:19.419 --> 00:13:25.100 espuma. But it turned into an all -around recipe 00:13:25.100 --> 00:13:30.120 for mushroom. Ragoos, mushroom cream sauces, 00:13:30.460 --> 00:13:32.360 whether they're heavy or light, whether I want 00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:34.500 like a mushroom foam, very light mushroom foam, 00:13:34.539 --> 00:13:38.860 but I always start the same way where I fry mushrooms 00:13:38.860 --> 00:13:40.779 until I have a lot of color. So they have a lot 00:13:40.779 --> 00:13:45.100 of Maillard. Then I deglaze with soy, right? 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:47.259 So they like the soy sauce, like caramelizes 00:13:47.259 --> 00:13:50.019 a little bit and like it intensifies and reduces. 00:13:50.539 --> 00:13:52.720 And then I add stock and whatever, and you can 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:54.940 add cream or cream fresh, but then very important, 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:58.950 they add a little bit of ponzu. And I add in 00:13:58.950 --> 00:14:03.529 the end katsubushi to like infuse and some like 00:14:03.529 --> 00:14:06.649 dried shiitakes and ideally some kombu also just 00:14:06.649 --> 00:14:09.190 to infuse. And then I like blitz it, I strain 00:14:09.190 --> 00:14:11.610 it. And you can't really tell this, like the 00:14:11.610 --> 00:14:13.610 katsubushi, for example, has this like little 00:14:13.610 --> 00:14:16.210 bit ham -like flavor, but you can't really pinpoint 00:14:16.210 --> 00:14:18.149 it. It's like full on mushroom flavor, you know? 00:14:18.370 --> 00:14:21.470 Obviously the shiitake, umami, soy sauce, umami, 00:14:21.549 --> 00:14:24.529 ponzu, umami, and a little bit of sourness together 00:14:24.529 --> 00:14:26.950 with like the fat. And it makes the like most 00:14:26.950 --> 00:14:31.289 tasty, super powered mushroom sauce that basically 00:14:31.289 --> 00:14:33.350 just tastes like mushrooms, right? But again, 00:14:33.490 --> 00:14:36.610 it tastes like mushrooms on steroids. Yeah, just 00:14:36.610 --> 00:14:39.590 like similar to that, I used to make this for 00:14:39.590 --> 00:14:41.570 like the last, I don't know, like three, four 00:14:41.570 --> 00:14:44.370 years. I make the sauce that I've used for all 00:14:44.370 --> 00:14:46.370 sorts of stuff. Actually, I've been making this 00:14:46.370 --> 00:14:48.129 for like 10 years. I made it the first time when 00:14:48.129 --> 00:14:51.750 I was in Lorea in Mexico. I make a very, very 00:14:51.750 --> 00:14:55.169 intense tomato water by just like seasoning and 00:14:55.169 --> 00:14:57.289 salting tomatoes and letting them drip. So I 00:14:57.289 --> 00:14:59.529 usually, I do like a express version nowadays, 00:14:59.710 --> 00:15:02.830 but I take very nice tasting tomatoes, quite 00:15:02.830 --> 00:15:06.129 a lot of salt, garlic, some sort of onion. Usually 00:15:06.129 --> 00:15:08.330 I use like a little bit of spring onion. And 00:15:08.330 --> 00:15:11.149 then like often I put in herbs, like a little 00:15:11.149 --> 00:15:13.889 bit of coriander. I blitz it just quickly. And 00:15:13.889 --> 00:15:16.090 then I let it hang. So just the water drips out. 00:15:16.610 --> 00:15:19.049 And then that water I season with a little bit 00:15:19.049 --> 00:15:22.269 of garum. Just a little bit. And like plenty, 00:15:22.370 --> 00:15:25.850 maybe a pinch of sugar if they need it. Because 00:15:25.850 --> 00:15:28.190 again, it like superpowers it. And a pinch of 00:15:28.190 --> 00:15:30.929 salt. And then I thicken it lightly with xanthan 00:15:30.929 --> 00:15:33.409 gum. You get this like velvety tomato, like seafood 00:15:33.409 --> 00:15:36.269 tomato sauce. But you taste it and it's like, 00:15:36.269 --> 00:15:39.889 it's like fucking Arnold Schwarzenegger as a 00:15:39.889 --> 00:15:42.750 tomato, you know? It's just like, it's out there 00:15:42.750 --> 00:15:44.870 to kick your fucking ass, you know? If you've 00:15:44.870 --> 00:15:47.509 ever had a nightmare where a tomato is coming 00:15:47.509 --> 00:15:49.909 into your bedroom, your sleep paralysis demon 00:15:49.909 --> 00:15:52.529 as a tomato, to kick your ass, that's basically 00:15:52.529 --> 00:15:58.029 what it tastes like. Desserts. Desserts with 00:15:58.029 --> 00:16:02.090 umami. For example, this trick of adding a little 00:16:02.090 --> 00:16:04.690 bit of blue cheese to the cheesecake or parmesan 00:16:04.690 --> 00:16:07.610 to the cheesecake, basically you're adding a 00:16:07.610 --> 00:16:12.090 layer of umami to the whole thing. This dessert 00:16:12.090 --> 00:16:17.769 of Echavarri, the grilled smoked sheep milk ice 00:16:17.769 --> 00:16:20.750 cream with beetroot juice. That's umami with 00:16:20.750 --> 00:16:24.529 umami, basically. Beetroot has also like a fresh 00:16:24.529 --> 00:16:28.879 beetroot juice. Also super... stimulating in 00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:31.740 in your tongue totally yeah because i mean beetroot 00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:34.299 beetroot juice has a lot of like minerals and 00:16:34.299 --> 00:16:37.340 salts and sugar you know and that's all like 00:16:37.340 --> 00:16:39.720 that it makes it very very complex a lot of people 00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:41.279 will think of beetroot juice is like oh it's 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:43.399 like a vegetable juice but if you look at what 00:16:43.399 --> 00:16:45.960 it actually is there's so much in there that 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:48.399 that'll make you that'll make your mouth explode 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:52.210 yeah incredibly complex and having it raw It 00:16:52.210 --> 00:16:55.809 also has its own, you feel that it's alive. So 00:16:55.809 --> 00:17:00.470 many microaromas happening around there. Chocolate. 00:17:00.610 --> 00:17:03.450 Chocolate is umami, basically. Have you tried 00:17:03.450 --> 00:17:06.569 chocolate with blue cheese? I don't think I have. 00:17:06.849 --> 00:17:10.470 Like a ganache of chocolate and blue cheese? 00:17:10.569 --> 00:17:13.230 Again, it's umami with umami. You know, like 00:17:13.230 --> 00:17:18.390 toffee. Again, more umami. concentrated dairies 00:17:18.390 --> 00:17:22.210 in general i would say or cured dairies uh generated 00:17:22.210 --> 00:17:25.089 umami oh yeah absolutely you know like what um 00:17:25.089 --> 00:17:27.589 what you just reminded me of with the toffee 00:17:27.589 --> 00:17:29.690 i think i talked about this before but yeast 00:17:29.690 --> 00:17:34.410 yeast roasted yeast that is an umami bomb i mean 00:17:34.410 --> 00:17:37.029 there's a reason why it's being used as an alternative 00:17:37.029 --> 00:17:39.329 for like parmesan and vegan cooking and stuff 00:17:39.329 --> 00:17:42.069 like that and i'm 100 certain i've talked about 00:17:42.069 --> 00:17:45.779 the caramelized yeast butter that i um sometimes 00:17:45.779 --> 00:17:48.880 make for certain things because that for me also 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:53.079 it's like the it's full full i don't actually 00:17:53.079 --> 00:17:55.680 know if you could call it umami but it's definitely 00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:58.539 into that direction you know geez but you mean 00:17:58.539 --> 00:18:01.420 like fresh yeast or roasted yeast because roasted 00:18:01.420 --> 00:18:04.420 yeast or yeast extracts that's umami by the book 00:18:04.420 --> 00:18:07.779 for sure yeah but you mean the fresh one that's 00:18:07.779 --> 00:18:09.960 what i mean no no that's the one i mean the roasted 00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:12.920 one ah yeah no no no that's umami 100 yeah yeah 00:18:14.009 --> 00:18:18.250 leche de tigre you know like i think that like 00:18:18.250 --> 00:18:21.369 the somehow the the citrus fruits extract like 00:18:21.369 --> 00:18:27.650 this juices from the fish that makes it this 00:18:27.650 --> 00:18:30.390 thing that explodes in your mouth you know um 00:18:30.390 --> 00:18:33.029 and yeah i mean seaweeds all sorts of seaweeds 00:18:33.029 --> 00:18:36.789 it's like seaweeds are such an incredible world 00:18:36.789 --> 00:18:39.529 of ingredients honestly i think it's like still 00:18:39.529 --> 00:18:42.140 super underrated what you can do with it When 00:18:42.140 --> 00:18:47.059 I was in Japan just now a few months ago, I ate 00:18:47.059 --> 00:18:50.319 so many nice things. But the thing that I would 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:53.339 pick as the best one was this side dish that 00:18:53.339 --> 00:18:54.799 I ate for breakfast. I'm pretty sure I talked 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:57.559 about it as well. But I'll just mention it again 00:18:57.559 --> 00:18:59.720 because it was so extremely good. Where it was 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:03.819 just braised turnips with umeboshi in kombu dashi. 00:19:04.259 --> 00:19:08.440 And she explained how she was doing it. And it's 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:10.140 literally, she's like, I'll make a cold infused 00:19:10.140 --> 00:19:14.299 kombu dashi. And then I take the turnips. I put 00:19:14.299 --> 00:19:16.420 them in. I cook them a little bit until they're 00:19:16.420 --> 00:19:19.140 soft. Then I put in some umeboshi. I'll cook 00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:21.740 them until they're nice and flavorsome. And then 00:19:21.740 --> 00:19:23.799 that's it. And then she spoons it in. And you 00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:25.619 were drinking this broth and eating the like 00:19:25.619 --> 00:19:29.799 sweet, deep turnips. And like... It was such 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:31.720 a, it wasn't like super, you know, we tend to 00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:33.680 always like over season things. Like we always 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:36.140 season to the top until you can't season anymore. 00:19:36.420 --> 00:19:38.660 And there everything was a little bit more mellow, 00:19:38.660 --> 00:19:42.599 but it was nice because like these super umami 00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:45.180 qualities, they would like come out more, you 00:19:45.180 --> 00:19:47.140 know, and you would like, it wasn't like saltiness 00:19:47.140 --> 00:19:53.799 that you tasted. It was just a deep, deep hitting, 00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:57.839 soul tickling umami, you know. Yeah, I was thinking 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:01.059 that there are also things that are so present 00:20:01.059 --> 00:20:03.400 in our cuisines, you know, because a lot of people 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:07.660 say like umami, this mysterious fifth flavor 00:20:07.660 --> 00:20:11.039 from Japan. And I mean, if you think about it, 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:13.880 like a good source of umami is just chicken stock 00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:18.220 or meat stock, right? Oh, yeah. Or tomato sauce, 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:21.819 which are all over our cuisines, you know, like 00:20:21.819 --> 00:20:26.910 it's all over the place. And yeah, I would say 00:20:26.910 --> 00:20:29.809 this is something we define as flavorful in our 00:20:29.809 --> 00:20:33.430 day -to -day language because we don't know how 00:20:33.430 --> 00:20:35.869 to separate it or how to identify it properly. 00:20:36.670 --> 00:20:38.630 Yeah, I mean, the only thing that the Japanese 00:20:38.630 --> 00:20:42.549 did is they defined a word for it and they researched 00:20:42.549 --> 00:20:45.349 it, they singled it out. They characterized it, 00:20:45.369 --> 00:20:47.250 exactly, yeah. They characterized it. I mean, 00:20:47.269 --> 00:20:50.390 you have to say that the Japanese cooking is 00:20:50.390 --> 00:20:53.839 very much, to a large extent, about umami. Umami 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:56.220 is definitely something that's very, very prevalent 00:20:56.220 --> 00:20:58.740 in Japanese cooking. But as you say, it's kind 00:20:58.740 --> 00:21:01.099 of like everybody has it. Everybody has umami 00:21:01.099 --> 00:21:04.099 in their natural cuisine. And just because one 00:21:04.099 --> 00:21:06.599 country coined the term doesn't mean that it's 00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:09.619 exclusive to that country and that only soy sauce 00:21:09.619 --> 00:21:12.380 and only kombu and only katsubushi have umami. 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:14.900 It's definitely, I think, one of the biggest 00:21:14.900 --> 00:21:19.920 misconceptions about umami. And is there enough 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:23.059 umami anywhere? I mean, if you could add more, 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:25.519 would you always add more? Is there a limit? 00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:30.099 Yes, I think there definitely is. I think you 00:21:30.099 --> 00:21:32.960 need to, in order to make that experiment, I 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:34.900 don't know if you've ever added too much MSG 00:21:34.900 --> 00:21:42.859 to something, but take a chicken stock and add 00:21:42.859 --> 00:21:46.519 MSG to it and then taste it and just keep adding 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:50.880 a teaspoon of MSG and see what happens. And when 00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:53.500 your roommate finds you with pupils as large 00:21:53.500 --> 00:21:57.380 as fucking tea sauces staring at the ceiling, 00:21:57.539 --> 00:22:02.380 chicken stock over your shirt, then you know 00:22:02.380 --> 00:22:06.480 you've added too much. Okay, okay, okay. I'll 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:09.339 have to try that. Sounds fun. I'm sure you will. 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:13.140 Because I don't know, for example, sometimes 00:22:13.140 --> 00:22:15.599 I do like a chicken stock and I would just... 00:22:16.379 --> 00:22:21.259 add a an instant miso soup on top of it you know 00:22:21.259 --> 00:22:25.940 like this that come with seaweed and miso and 00:22:25.940 --> 00:22:30.779 dehydrated onions and everything and then i have 00:22:30.779 --> 00:22:36.200 like this super rich miso soup and basically 00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:39.779 i'm adding umami to the umami you know like yeah 00:22:40.569 --> 00:22:42.430 Also, these things, like a puttanesca, you have 00:22:42.430 --> 00:22:46.630 tomato sauce that has anchovies and olives and 00:22:46.630 --> 00:22:50.809 parmesan. You're just adding more and more of 00:22:50.809 --> 00:22:53.869 it. That's why I'm asking, is there a limit? 00:22:54.009 --> 00:22:57.049 Or can you always add more? Well, I don't know. 00:22:57.210 --> 00:22:59.130 I don't know. I guess you actually just said 00:22:59.130 --> 00:23:01.809 something very interesting, because I think it's 00:23:01.809 --> 00:23:04.430 a no -go in Italy to add parmesan to a puttanesca. 00:23:05.210 --> 00:23:08.450 Oh, really? Yeah, I think there's this rule that 00:23:08.450 --> 00:23:12.809 you don't add cheese to seafood pastas. But is 00:23:12.809 --> 00:23:15.589 Sputanesca considered a seafood pasta? Well, 00:23:15.690 --> 00:23:18.369 it has anchovies. It has anchovies, but I mean, 00:23:18.410 --> 00:23:20.690 I think that applies if you're doing like a vongole, 00:23:20.890 --> 00:23:25.089 you know, or something. Because anchovies, yeah, 00:23:25.250 --> 00:23:28.589 it's seafood, but it's a very good friend of 00:23:28.589 --> 00:23:31.609 parmesan. Yeah, for sure. I mean, don't get me 00:23:31.609 --> 00:23:34.630 wrong. I will add parmesan onto any kind of pasta 00:23:34.630 --> 00:23:38.019 that I eat. No matter, no matter what, like, 00:23:38.019 --> 00:23:41.079 you know, and you can get after me however you 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:43.619 want. I don't care who I'm with. If it's fucking 00:23:43.619 --> 00:23:45.880 Massimo Bottura or whatever, I will always be 00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:48.779 happy to add Parmesan onto my pasta because Parmesan 00:23:48.779 --> 00:23:52.019 is just fucking tasty. And I think that if it's 00:23:52.019 --> 00:23:54.799 good, you should just do it, right? Like I would, 00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:56.940 I would also add Parmesan on top of like spaghetti 00:23:56.940 --> 00:24:00.019 vongole. I have no, I give no fucks. I don't 00:24:00.019 --> 00:24:01.779 see what the point is. I just know that it's 00:24:01.779 --> 00:24:04.519 a rule and I wanted to hear your opinion about 00:24:04.519 --> 00:24:09.210 it. Sorry, sorry about what I was just checking. 00:24:09.490 --> 00:24:11.569 And yeah, actually, it's true what you just said. 00:24:11.569 --> 00:24:13.529 The Italians don't add parmesan to the puttanesca. 00:24:14.609 --> 00:24:17.529 Sorry, what was the question? No, I said that 00:24:17.529 --> 00:24:19.809 I don't care about these sorts of rules. I was 00:24:19.809 --> 00:24:24.109 just wondering what your opinion on it was. I 00:24:24.109 --> 00:24:28.289 don't trust any rules. I think rules were invented 00:24:28.289 --> 00:24:31.849 by someone at some point, you know, and especially 00:24:31.849 --> 00:24:35.349 eating rules. I've heard all this kind of, or 00:24:35.349 --> 00:24:40.150 like fashion rules. I've heard people saying 00:24:40.150 --> 00:24:44.309 like, no, you can't combine dark blue with black. 00:24:44.529 --> 00:24:47.650 You just don't do that. And I'm like, yeah, says 00:24:47.650 --> 00:24:53.630 who? Yeah, exactly. And I think that's like colors 00:24:53.630 --> 00:24:56.009 combination. I think exactly the same applies 00:24:56.009 --> 00:25:00.470 to flavor combinations. Nobody can tell you what 00:25:00.470 --> 00:25:03.589 you can or can't do. Because there will always 00:25:03.589 --> 00:25:06.769 be exceptions. You can't have a red wine with 00:25:06.769 --> 00:25:11.789 seafood if it works, right? Yeah, I absolutely 00:25:11.789 --> 00:25:14.910 agree. Totally. I think if it's tasty, you should 00:25:14.910 --> 00:25:17.910 just do it. Yeah, exactly. It just has to work. 00:25:18.089 --> 00:25:21.730 Because not every red wine works with any seafood. 00:25:21.990 --> 00:25:24.849 But I'm pretty sure there are matches where it 00:25:24.849 --> 00:25:28.109 works. I think it's okay to not really understand 00:25:28.109 --> 00:25:30.990 umami fully. I think it's something that you 00:25:30.990 --> 00:25:33.890 should search for, though. You know, like kind 00:25:33.890 --> 00:25:36.329 of step out of the box of what your understanding 00:25:36.329 --> 00:25:39.089 of food is and kind of maybe try to look for 00:25:39.089 --> 00:25:41.250 it in places that you don't. Like next time you 00:25:41.250 --> 00:25:43.069 eat a piece of parmesan, stop thinking about 00:25:43.069 --> 00:25:45.410 the saltiness and this and that. And like, you 00:25:45.410 --> 00:25:48.349 know, think about the umami and you'll see that 00:25:48.349 --> 00:25:51.549 you'll find it in a lot of things very, very 00:25:51.549 --> 00:25:55.099 prevalently. And then you can use that to your 00:25:55.099 --> 00:25:57.460 advantage and incorporate it more knowingly into 00:25:57.460 --> 00:26:00.759 your cooking. Yeah, I would say it is that thing 00:26:00.759 --> 00:26:04.960 that you crave when your mouth waters, right? 00:26:05.019 --> 00:26:08.180 Like if you have like a steak in front of you 00:26:08.180 --> 00:26:10.880 and your mouth starts watering, you're probably 00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:14.599 experiencing or craving umami. That's what it 00:26:14.599 --> 00:26:21.579 is. That's it for this week's episode of Potluck 00:26:21.579 --> 00:26:24.039 Food Talks. If you like what we're doing, make 00:26:24.039 --> 00:26:26.299 sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never 00:26:26.299 --> 00:26:28.960 miss an episode. You can also find us on Instagram 00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:32.440 and TikTok as potluckfoodtalks. The show airs 00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:32.900 every Monday.