WEBVTT 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:10.240 You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Hi, 00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:12.660 everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. Today, 00:00:12.839 --> 00:00:16.199 we have a very special guest, Alex Touceda. She's 00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:20.280 right now at Harvard in Boston, and we're going 00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:23.559 to talk a little bit about her development and 00:00:23.559 --> 00:00:26.359 her chef career, which is something quite unique. 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:30.199 Nice to have you here. Yes, thank you. So, Alex, 00:00:30.219 --> 00:00:34.399 how did you start cooking? When were your first 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:37.140 steps? Was it at home? Was it with your parents, 00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:39.520 your grandparents? I don't know. My start is 00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:42.159 like super basic. It's probably like how people 00:00:42.159 --> 00:00:45.679 start thinking about being a chef. But basically, 00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:48.500 when I was a kid, I used to play cocinitas, which 00:00:48.500 --> 00:00:51.219 basically means like little kitchen stuff. That 00:00:51.219 --> 00:00:53.259 was like my game. I used to have like this room 00:00:53.259 --> 00:00:55.859 in my house full of games for me and my sisters. 00:00:55.960 --> 00:00:58.570 And for me, it was this corner. full of like, 00:00:58.670 --> 00:01:01.909 I don't know, equipment for the kitchen, but 00:01:01.909 --> 00:01:04.590 in a little form, I guess. One memory that I 00:01:04.590 --> 00:01:09.069 do have when I felt I started like to being able 00:01:09.069 --> 00:01:11.010 to, I don't know, understand what actually cooking 00:01:11.010 --> 00:01:14.629 meant was one time that I decided to make rice 00:01:14.629 --> 00:01:16.670 like my father did, because my father is the 00:01:16.670 --> 00:01:18.890 one that cooked at home. And my father used to 00:01:18.890 --> 00:01:22.790 like, I don't know, put oil in a pot, put a garlic 00:01:22.790 --> 00:01:25.849 on it, heat it up, put the rice, heat it up. 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:28.659 And that was my knowledge as a kid of making 00:01:28.659 --> 00:01:33.920 rice. I guess I forgot that you boil rice. But 00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:35.859 basically I was like, oh my God, I want to do 00:01:35.859 --> 00:01:37.840 the same thing. I went to the kitchen. I took 00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:39.840 all the things, all the ingredients. I went to 00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:43.400 my room. I put the heat up, full summer. I opened 00:01:43.400 --> 00:01:45.599 the windows. I was like, oh, let's cook in the 00:01:45.599 --> 00:01:49.060 heat. You know what I mean? I put the pot on 00:01:49.060 --> 00:01:52.140 top of the heater. I started like frying my rice, 00:01:52.180 --> 00:01:55.180 my raw rice. And my father came and he was like, 00:01:55.640 --> 00:01:58.579 What is going on? And I was like, haha, I'm making 00:01:58.579 --> 00:02:02.599 rice. So I guess that's when my father took me 00:02:02.599 --> 00:02:04.900 and he started teaching me how to properly cook. 00:02:05.180 --> 00:02:10.560 Ah, super nice. It's cheaper than putting the 00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:14.979 heat. I also have one of my first memories of 00:02:14.979 --> 00:02:18.520 cooking is also with my dad. And it was doing 00:02:18.520 --> 00:02:23.770 this potato pancakes that you find in... In France 00:02:23.770 --> 00:02:26.150 and Germany, in France you call them rösti, and 00:02:26.150 --> 00:02:28.430 in Germany they're kartoffelpuffer, that you 00:02:28.430 --> 00:02:32.189 shred potatoes and you do like a flat cake. And 00:02:32.189 --> 00:02:34.310 I remember doing that as a kid. I was standing 00:02:34.310 --> 00:02:36.789 next to the kitchen, you know, like as a little 00:02:36.789 --> 00:02:41.409 kid. Same thing, same thing. But I started there, 00:02:41.509 --> 00:02:45.129 I guess, yeah. And then what about professional 00:02:45.129 --> 00:02:47.409 cooking? At some point you had to decide, okay, 00:02:47.530 --> 00:02:53.439 like I will go to a culinary university. That 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:58.180 was a challenge, I think. I was super sure that 00:02:58.180 --> 00:03:00.639 I wanted to be a chef. But then I guess in the 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:03.159 last two years of high school, I got into this, 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:07.780 like, I don't know, mindset that maybe I had 00:03:07.780 --> 00:03:09.900 to look for a different career that was a little 00:03:09.900 --> 00:03:14.400 more easy, I guess. My father was really against 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:17.639 this idea of being a chef, not because he didn't 00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:20.520 want me to be whatever I want in life, but also 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:23.560 because he was worried. uh like it's a hard i 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:26.780 don't know i'm sorry but it's a hard like discipline 00:03:26.780 --> 00:03:29.580 you put a lot of hours it's not that well paid 00:03:29.580 --> 00:03:33.319 um so in that moment i had like this crisis of 00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:36.240 oh my god i do love science i am super good at 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:40.199 it um i have these crazy grades i could do whatever 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:46.009 i want um but yeah And you decided to go to culinary 00:03:46.009 --> 00:03:48.629 school. I decided to go to the school that didn't 00:03:48.629 --> 00:03:50.289 even ask me for a grade. You know what I mean? 00:03:51.449 --> 00:03:55.370 But yes, that's basically it. Again, how was 00:03:55.370 --> 00:03:57.750 it? How was the experience in culinary school? 00:03:58.530 --> 00:04:01.870 I loved it. I did it in Barcelona in a school 00:04:01.870 --> 00:04:04.430 that is called FET and I loved it. Oh my God, 00:04:04.469 --> 00:04:07.990 I loved it so much. It was so fun. I felt so 00:04:07.990 --> 00:04:10.669 good with myself. I felt so creative. I don't 00:04:10.669 --> 00:04:13.639 know how to explain it, but I don't know. Yeah, 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:15.840 I think I was in the right place and that's why 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:18.860 I loved it so much. I had a great experience. 00:04:19.379 --> 00:04:23.139 And during your time at school, you also did 00:04:23.139 --> 00:04:25.959 some internships and restaurants. Were these 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:29.500 like classic Catalan restaurants? I actually 00:04:29.500 --> 00:04:32.079 started with one that is better not to mention 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:36.339 because it was a catastrophe. It was bad. I started 00:04:36.339 --> 00:04:38.819 with one and it made me feel so bad. I think 00:04:38.819 --> 00:04:43.120 my heart was first broken there. Okay, we love 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:45.839 these kind of stories here at the podcast. Yeah, 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:49.939 yeah. Did somebody throw pants at you? Somebody 00:04:49.939 --> 00:04:55.060 mess with your parents or something? No, it was 00:04:55.060 --> 00:04:58.540 bad. I don't know. It was like the relationship 00:04:58.540 --> 00:05:01.199 they had between them was bad. People crying 00:05:01.199 --> 00:05:05.060 in the kitchen all the time. Bad comments, really 00:05:05.060 --> 00:05:08.160 passive -aggressive people. I don't know. They 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:10.660 made me drink coffee. I was not a drinker of 00:05:10.660 --> 00:05:13.040 coffee. So I felt really anxious because I already 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:15.839 had the anxiety of being there in this like super 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:19.899 weird place and then full of coffee because they 00:05:19.899 --> 00:05:22.540 didn't feel like having people that didn't drink 00:05:22.540 --> 00:05:26.720 coffee in the kitchen. It was crazy. It was crazy. 00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:29.000 I was, you know what I mean, I was 18 years old. 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:32.160 My first kitchen, I was in love with the kitchen 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:35.720 because they actually were so good cooking, which 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:39.800 is the saddest part. But who was the bad guy 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:42.839 here? Was it like a crazy chef? It was a crazy 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:46.579 chef. It was the chef. The rest of the people, 00:05:46.620 --> 00:05:49.399 they were nice, but they were like, again, bad. 00:05:49.819 --> 00:05:51.920 I didn't even, yeah, I don't know. My father 00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:54.279 took me out of that place. I couldn't do it. 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:58.079 I was just there. Depressed and skinny like a 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:02.019 spaghetti. Been there, done that. Yeah, absolutely. 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:06.160 So that was actually my first, I don't know. 00:06:06.750 --> 00:06:09.069 heartbroken situation thing with the kitchen 00:06:09.069 --> 00:06:13.449 but then i moved on i went to a place that was 00:06:13.449 --> 00:06:15.730 super traditional but they were super well done 00:06:15.730 --> 00:06:18.730 in barcelona that is called la taberna del clinic 00:06:18.730 --> 00:06:23.649 um it's next to disfrutar actually okay i've 00:06:23.649 --> 00:06:25.889 heard about this place yeah it's so good yeah 00:06:25.889 --> 00:06:27.629 it's really good it's really traditional they 00:06:27.629 --> 00:06:30.670 work with like galician product which is where 00:06:30.670 --> 00:06:32.709 i'm from it was next to my house because i used 00:06:32.709 --> 00:06:36.360 to live there in el sample And that was like, 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:39.319 I don't know, coming back to terms with the kitchen 00:06:39.319 --> 00:06:42.540 and, I don't know, being in love again for, I 00:06:42.540 --> 00:06:44.620 don't know, with myself in the kitchen, if that 00:06:44.620 --> 00:06:47.720 makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. So that restaurant 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:50.779 meant that, like coming back again in the way 00:06:50.779 --> 00:06:53.699 of, I don't know, loving being in the kitchen. 00:06:54.860 --> 00:07:00.600 And then you went to Casa Soya? Yes, yes. Bueno, 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:04.360 Casa Soya is next to my house, my hometown. Galicia, 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:08.480 right? Yes. I guess my thought was that I wanted 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:12.839 to try one Mussolini star restaurant. After like 00:07:12.839 --> 00:07:14.680 this traditional place, I wanted to see like 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:18.800 more fine dining. And it was amazing. It was 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:20.519 amazing to see also like the differences between 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:23.759 them. I also think experiences in the kitchen 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:26.379 are a lot because of the house, but also because 00:07:26.379 --> 00:07:29.600 of who you, I don't know, like who do you meet 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:32.160 in that place in that specific moment. The person 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:35.019 that was in charge of me was Jose. It was an 00:07:35.019 --> 00:07:37.220 amazing chef. He actually has a restaurant now, 00:07:37.300 --> 00:07:40.839 Teibe, with Lidia. And it was amazing. I learned 00:07:40.839 --> 00:07:47.779 so much from him. Casasoya is very product -driven, 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:50.879 right? Yes, but I think Galician food is like 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:56.639 that. I guess so. I think a little bit how people 00:07:56.639 --> 00:07:59.319 in Galicia cook is like that, right? Like super 00:07:59.319 --> 00:08:02.990 clean products. not much to it because we have 00:08:02.990 --> 00:08:07.329 plants. That's it. I don't know, like the fish 00:08:07.329 --> 00:08:09.389 is just like perfectly cooked, but you don't 00:08:09.389 --> 00:08:12.129 have to add much to it. Yeah. So it's a little 00:08:12.129 --> 00:08:14.689 bit like that, but it had some technique, some 00:08:14.689 --> 00:08:17.449 fine dining kind of technique, which I appreciated 00:08:17.449 --> 00:08:19.449 in that moment. I don't know. It was super fun. 00:08:20.430 --> 00:08:24.470 And then you went to Celler de Can Roca. Was 00:08:24.470 --> 00:08:28.029 that a highlight in your restaurant life track? 00:08:28.470 --> 00:08:31.689 Or was it a complete deception? No. Oh, my God. 00:08:31.730 --> 00:08:33.909 I'm in love with Celler de Can Roca. I've heard 00:08:33.909 --> 00:08:37.450 from everybody that has worked there or is still 00:08:37.450 --> 00:08:40.009 working there the same thing. No, no. It was 00:08:40.009 --> 00:08:42.710 the restaurant that I would fight to stay in. 00:08:43.049 --> 00:08:46.980 COVID came. So I had to leave. But no, it was 00:08:46.980 --> 00:08:49.580 good. I mean, I spent four months first in the 00:08:49.580 --> 00:08:53.080 research area, which was my first like, I don't 00:08:53.080 --> 00:08:55.919 know. It was my first experience as doing research 00:08:55.919 --> 00:09:00.159 in gastronomy. I was working in... Did you meet 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:04.919 Joan Carbó? No. No? Okay. He was a guy that, 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:07.960 yeah, he was doing like spirits. Ah, sí, sí, 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:10.899 sí. Yes, yes, yes. Of course. They were doing 00:09:10.899 --> 00:09:14.279 like this, what was it? Algarroba drink. Can 00:09:14.279 --> 00:09:18.440 it be? I don't know. I met him because he has 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:20.980 a company in Bolivia, and I worked in Bolivia 00:09:20.980 --> 00:09:25.799 for a while. Oh, wow. Yeah, he was making Bolivian 00:09:25.799 --> 00:09:29.019 tequila and Bolivian gin. No, not tequila, gin 00:09:29.019 --> 00:09:33.940 and vodka. Oh, my God. I don't know. There were 00:09:33.940 --> 00:09:35.740 so many people in that restaurant, I have to 00:09:35.740 --> 00:09:39.799 tell you. It was a huge family. And how was the 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:43.620 experience? Why was it so nice? So first, the 00:09:43.620 --> 00:09:45.700 research was amazing. Like when I did research, 00:09:45.980 --> 00:09:49.100 I was like, wow, this is amazing. The people 00:09:49.100 --> 00:09:51.779 are so nice. I met so much, so many friends. 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:54.360 And then I went to the kitchen for six months 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:58.659 and there is when I fell in love. I think first, 00:09:58.940 --> 00:10:02.559 I don't know, like the ambience there, like the 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:05.379 people that were there, they are so nice. But 00:10:05.379 --> 00:10:07.840 also I think we are so many stagers at the same 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:10.539 time because we're like... maybe 60 people doing 00:10:10.539 --> 00:10:13.940 uh internship in the restaurant it is incredible 00:10:13.940 --> 00:10:17.019 but at the same time i do understand you know 00:10:17.019 --> 00:10:19.919 i mean like it's a summer camp with these people 00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:22.039 that are amazing because they're all into the 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:24.240 same things and they want to learn i don't know 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:26.919 as much as they can from the restaurant but but 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:28.600 also from each other because actually people 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:31.360 that do internships in lcj they are good you 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:33.220 know i mean they are already good they don't 00:10:33.220 --> 00:10:36.480 need the internship I know exactly what you mean. 00:10:36.639 --> 00:10:40.000 I spent some time in Mugaritz, for example, 20 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:44.720 years ago. And yeah, I was surrounded by super 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:49.820 talented people. And I think you learn as much 00:10:49.820 --> 00:10:53.340 from the workers, from the hired workers as from 00:10:53.340 --> 00:10:57.159 the other study years. So that was amazing. And 00:10:57.159 --> 00:10:59.779 then imagine like 60 people being super friends 00:10:59.779 --> 00:11:04.259 for six months and cooking. For each other, outside, 00:11:04.460 --> 00:11:06.320 inside. You know what I mean? It was amazing. 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:08.960 Yeah, yeah. You also cooked a lot. Did you have 00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:11.480 like an apartment for three years? Yeah, they 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:15.620 give us like the apartment food. And basically 00:11:15.620 --> 00:11:17.820 we would like all meet in the apartments and 00:11:17.820 --> 00:11:21.059 cook for each other. Yes, or go and, I don't 00:11:21.059 --> 00:11:24.200 know, try restaurants or, I don't know. It was 00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:26.259 amazing. People from all over the world, right? 00:11:26.659 --> 00:11:29.480 Yes, from all over the world. I have a friend 00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:32.320 in New York right now. That just, again, opened 00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:34.840 a restaurant, too, that we met in El Seller. 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:37.679 And we are friends. And now we are close, but 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:41.899 we're in the other side of the ocean. Super nice. 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:44.240 And did they do your thesis for the university 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:48.639 there in El Seller? What was the topic? It was 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:52.659 a random topic. It was about agriculture, actually. 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:57.500 I was studying, like, how we could bring back 00:11:57.500 --> 00:12:01.129 plants that were forgotten because, bueno, how 00:12:01.129 --> 00:12:04.629 we live, we are basically losing diversity, right, 00:12:04.750 --> 00:12:08.070 in the plants, in the way we are, like, doing 00:12:08.070 --> 00:12:10.909 agriculture. And they were trying to bring back 00:12:10.909 --> 00:12:14.750 those old, I don't know, plants that were getting 00:12:14.750 --> 00:12:17.889 lost into the garden that they have and try to 00:12:17.889 --> 00:12:20.669 see, like, the possibilities to create new dishes 00:12:20.669 --> 00:12:22.789 or new applications for them. But basically it 00:12:22.789 --> 00:12:26.070 was, like, it came from the brothers, the Roca 00:12:26.070 --> 00:12:29.429 brothers wanting to, like, recreate recipes from 00:12:29.429 --> 00:12:33.259 their... And they realized that some of the ingredients 00:12:33.259 --> 00:12:35.759 were not available anymore because they stopped 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:38.580 planting them. So we started working with an 00:12:38.580 --> 00:12:42.399 institution that is called Fundación Miquel Agustí, 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:44.720 that they are actually doing research in agriculture 00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:49.419 in Catalonia. And we were basically trying to 00:12:49.419 --> 00:12:52.539 study how that plant will grow in the conditions 00:12:52.539 --> 00:12:56.019 that we have nowadays in the area and the possibilities 00:12:56.019 --> 00:13:00.159 that it has. It was cool. I also wrote a book. 00:13:00.419 --> 00:13:04.940 You wrote a book? Bueno, I didn't write it myself, 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:07.759 but I was helping. They were doing this book 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:11.220 for kids that it was like actually on food and 00:13:11.220 --> 00:13:14.139 science. How crazy. Life is crazy. They were 00:13:14.139 --> 00:13:17.519 writing a book that was like to teach kids science 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:21.879 through cooking. And I was like helping developing 00:13:21.879 --> 00:13:25.000 the recipes. That was also cool. At what point 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:29.000 did you... turn more into science? Was there 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:36.200 like a curve at some point? I think science was 00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:39.759 always part of my trajectory. Your understanding 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:44.899 of cooking? I think so. Of course, it sounds 00:13:44.899 --> 00:13:47.279 a little bit like, haha, I'm so cool. I always 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:49.639 have science in my head. But no, I really think 00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:53.419 so. I don't know. I remember like in school. 00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:56.919 I used to read so many books of food and science 00:13:56.919 --> 00:13:59.039 when I don't think it was a thing back then. 00:13:59.379 --> 00:14:02.120 I had this book that was called El secreto de 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:05.480 los pucheros, which is like the secret of a tube 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:11.820 tube stews. Yeah, like soups, soup stews. And 00:14:11.820 --> 00:14:15.139 I was in love with that book. I remember the 00:14:15.139 --> 00:14:17.679 book said that you can make a mayonnaise with 00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:22.620 only one egg that could hold 24 liters of oil. 00:14:23.629 --> 00:14:25.289 Okay, that's interesting. That's interesting. 00:14:25.389 --> 00:14:27.029 I don't know if it's true. Maybe I like it so 00:14:27.029 --> 00:14:31.570 much. It was an old book. But I was always interested 00:14:31.570 --> 00:14:34.470 in science, I think. One of the things that made 00:14:34.470 --> 00:14:39.149 me change is the master that I did. I was really 00:14:39.149 --> 00:14:41.649 trying not to lose my connection to the kitchen, 00:14:41.769 --> 00:14:44.809 I guess. I was really afraid of stepping out 00:14:44.809 --> 00:14:47.389 of the kitchen. But at some point in the master, 00:14:47.610 --> 00:14:51.909 well, I don't know. What's the master you're 00:14:51.909 --> 00:14:54.100 talking about? A master is a master that I did 00:14:54.100 --> 00:14:57.539 in Masculinary Center. Ah, okay. The master in 00:14:57.539 --> 00:15:00.139 science and gastronomy. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. 00:15:01.100 --> 00:15:03.220 Juan Carlos Arrolella, which was the coordinator 00:15:03.220 --> 00:15:06.820 of the master, he also like teached class in 00:15:06.820 --> 00:15:09.279 food science, which was basically the book that 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:12.879 I was in love with, but more seriously as a class. 00:15:13.179 --> 00:15:16.059 And it was like the maximum nerd in that class. 00:15:16.580 --> 00:15:18.980 I loved it so much. Oh my God. I loved it so 00:15:18.980 --> 00:15:23.299 much. And I guess... In that point, I remember 00:15:23.299 --> 00:15:26.320 telling Juan Carlos when I was looking for my 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:29.220 internship that I didn't want to step out of 00:15:29.220 --> 00:15:30.820 the kitchen. I was super afraid of it, blah, 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:33.980 blah, blah. And then he offered me in a random 00:15:33.980 --> 00:15:38.940 moment to come to Harvard. And I don't know, 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:41.580 I answered something like, let me think about 00:15:41.580 --> 00:15:45.740 it for a sec. Immediately, of course, I said 00:15:45.740 --> 00:15:50.120 yes. I was just being goofy or silly. I guess 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:52.779 that's when I started being like, okay, I guess 00:15:52.779 --> 00:15:57.100 I'm doing science. That's when. And what did 00:15:57.100 --> 00:16:00.539 you do at Harvard in the first place? The first 00:16:00.539 --> 00:16:04.600 thing is you come here and you basically teach 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:07.299 a class. Well, if you're lucky, I was super lucky 00:16:07.299 --> 00:16:10.360 and they offered me to teach a class that is 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:14.580 called science and cooking. Yeah, I started following 00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:18.500 this class like... Maybe 15 years ago or at least 00:16:18.500 --> 00:16:21.360 10 years ago. I remember because this class was 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:24.360 first launched by Pere Castells. I think he was 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:26.759 like a collaborator or something. He's still 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:31.259 a collaborator, yeah. And the first 10 lecturers, 00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:35.919 guest lecturers, were all Catalan chefs. Yes, 00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:38.419 friends of Pere, you know. Exactly, it was a 00:16:38.419 --> 00:16:42.320 club of Catalan chefs. And I remember it was 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:44.279 super cool because you would listen, I don't 00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:46.960 know, to José Andrés or friends of Ferran or 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:51.840 José Andrés talking about gelatins or, I don't 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:55.899 know, David Chang talking about miso and so on 00:16:55.899 --> 00:16:57.779 and on. And it was super interesting. I watch 00:16:57.779 --> 00:17:00.519 a lot of those classes on YouTube. That's cool. 00:17:00.700 --> 00:17:03.899 At least 10 years ago. I think like 12, around 00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:06.299 12 years ago. That's amazing. Now I'm the person 00:17:06.299 --> 00:17:11.049 that puts those videos up. That's so funny. Basically. 00:17:11.789 --> 00:17:13.890 But it's cool. The class is basically trying 00:17:13.890 --> 00:17:16.230 to, well, now Pia Sorensen teaches the class 00:17:16.230 --> 00:17:19.210 and they are trying to teach science through 00:17:19.210 --> 00:17:23.829 food because food has this ability of, I don't 00:17:23.829 --> 00:17:26.890 know, showing cases of scientific topics in an 00:17:26.890 --> 00:17:29.690 easier way, basically. I don't know, like every 00:17:29.690 --> 00:17:33.750 week they have a topic, a scientific topic, I 00:17:33.750 --> 00:17:35.730 don't know, like the diffusion of molecules, 00:17:36.150 --> 00:17:41.759 the, I don't know, elasticity. fermentation first 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:44.180 they teach it in a really scientific way then 00:17:44.180 --> 00:17:47.099 a chef comes and like he teaches or she teaches 00:17:47.099 --> 00:17:51.000 the topic in the gastronomy world and then they 00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:53.900 have to do a lab where they combine those two 00:17:53.900 --> 00:17:55.779 so they combine the equation that is scientific 00:17:55.779 --> 00:17:59.579 and they combine the experiment that is food 00:17:59.579 --> 00:18:02.599 and then they understand the topic basically 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:09.079 ideally Yeah, I remember when I watched it, it 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:13.220 was first, there's like a short part, which at 00:18:13.220 --> 00:18:16.079 least back then, which is very technical, like 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:20.039 explaining some formula or some rules or whatever 00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:23.640 in physics or chemistry or whatever. Yeah, yeah, 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:25.319 yeah. And then the chef comments, which is a 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:29.039 fun part. The one part. It depends what kind 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:33.799 of nerd you are. Yes, this is the same, but instead 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:35.980 of like they have one day that is full science 00:18:35.980 --> 00:18:38.660 and one day that is full cooking. The students, 00:18:38.819 --> 00:18:42.019 the lectures got so famous because people like 00:18:42.019 --> 00:18:44.720 pretty famous people came that at the beginning 00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:46.599 they were just closed for students, but then 00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:48.630 they got so famous that... people had to open 00:18:48.630 --> 00:18:51.250 it for the public. So that's why... Ah, so like 00:18:51.250 --> 00:18:54.769 open to the citizens in Boston. They can go to 00:18:54.769 --> 00:18:56.470 the lecture. Yes. And that's why... Ah, that's 00:18:56.470 --> 00:18:58.569 so cool. See, those are like the science and 00:18:58.569 --> 00:19:00.950 cooking lecture series. But that's... It just 00:19:00.950 --> 00:19:04.470 grew out of like people sneaking in the room 00:19:04.470 --> 00:19:08.170 and making the room packed with people. So they 00:19:08.170 --> 00:19:10.349 open it like another day where it's just for 00:19:10.349 --> 00:19:14.190 public. Ah, that's so cool. It is cool. Have 00:19:14.190 --> 00:19:18.279 you hosted some... interesting chefs or scientists 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:21.980 during your time there? Many, many, many, many, 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:25.619 many, many, many. For instance, this year we 00:19:25.619 --> 00:19:29.019 had Alex Atala from Brazil. What did he do? What 00:19:29.019 --> 00:19:31.779 did he cook? And what was the... Pau de queijo. 00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:35.400 He cooked pau de queijo. Some, I don't know, 00:19:35.420 --> 00:19:37.440 things that he's doing with tapioca in the restaurant. 00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:41.819 But then he basically was a little bit more explaining 00:19:41.819 --> 00:19:45.299 his philosophy in the kitchen. That actually 00:19:45.299 --> 00:19:47.759 was not attached to a topic because we always 00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:50.000 have one chef that is not attached to a topic, 00:19:50.119 --> 00:19:52.579 if that makes sense. Also, it happened the same 00:19:52.579 --> 00:19:56.519 way. Malena and Pia from Central, they came, 00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:59.319 but again, that was not attached to a topic because 00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:01.559 usually, I don't know, the most famous person 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:04.700 just comes and speaks about the restaurant and 00:20:04.700 --> 00:20:08.200 things that they are doing in that moment. But 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:10.980 this year, for instance, we had a pizzaiola from 00:20:10.980 --> 00:20:14.640 New York explaining the science behind the pizza 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.180 dough. And the scientific topic was elasticity. 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:20.359 So the students had to measure the elastic modulus 00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:24.400 of the dough and things like that. I don't know. 00:20:24.460 --> 00:20:26.940 I haven't watched those videos in a long time. 00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:33.220 I'll do like an update to watch some. I would 00:20:33.220 --> 00:20:36.710 like to watch that pizza video. You should. I 00:20:36.710 --> 00:20:40.190 think the most incredible thing for me that makes 00:20:40.190 --> 00:20:43.349 me more like, oh my gosh, I'm here in Harvard 00:20:43.349 --> 00:20:48.930 doing weird things, is that I host Haron Magee, 00:20:48.990 --> 00:20:51.230 which is like for me. Oh, that's incredible. 00:20:51.869 --> 00:20:54.890 Like for those that are not aware of this, for 00:20:54.890 --> 00:20:57.910 chefs, Haron Magee is like a little god, no? 00:20:58.309 --> 00:21:01.349 Maybe I'm being crazy, but he's like who brought 00:21:01.349 --> 00:21:05.589 science to gastronomy, basically. Yeah, he published, 00:21:05.809 --> 00:21:09.150 I would say at least in the 80s, maybe in the 00:21:09.150 --> 00:21:12.289 70s, I'm not sure, like his major work, which 00:21:12.289 --> 00:21:15.109 is on science and cooking, which is a thick book. 00:21:15.269 --> 00:21:20.210 And you will look for, I don't know, boiling 00:21:20.210 --> 00:21:22.309 and you will have like an article. It's like 00:21:22.309 --> 00:21:25.130 an encyclopedia about cooking processes scientifically 00:21:25.130 --> 00:21:28.109 explained. Yes. And he did it out of nothing. 00:21:28.190 --> 00:21:30.390 Like he was not sure that was going to work at 00:21:30.390 --> 00:21:32.609 all. And now he's like... Yeah, it was an independent 00:21:32.609 --> 00:21:35.910 project, right? He on his own in a library, writing 00:21:35.910 --> 00:21:39.170 this, documenting all these processes. Super 00:21:39.170 --> 00:21:41.869 cool. So it's amazing because I had the chance 00:21:41.869 --> 00:21:45.230 of talking to him many times. And for me, it's 00:21:45.230 --> 00:21:49.130 like, wow, I'm with a famous person. It's the 00:21:49.130 --> 00:21:51.750 only feeling that I... Well, whatever. It's cool. 00:21:51.829 --> 00:21:54.549 It's really cool. And what did he talk about? 00:21:55.750 --> 00:21:59.240 We talked about life, actually. But I mean like 00:21:59.240 --> 00:22:02.220 in the class. In the class, many, many things. 00:22:02.339 --> 00:22:05.000 He comes every year. This year he talked about 00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:08.660 aromas because he had a new book about flavor, 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:12.640 which is called Nose Dive. And it's like the 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:15.039 chemistry behind all the flavor molecules in 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:17.680 food. It's quite incredible. So he talked about 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:20.619 that. In the past years, he always talks about 00:22:20.619 --> 00:22:25.259 people's research that is also with him. It's 00:22:25.259 --> 00:22:29.190 pretty interesting. Yeah, I remember. Listening 00:22:29.190 --> 00:22:36.230 to him talking at that class about MSG and debunking 00:22:36.230 --> 00:22:41.730 the dangers of MSG. That's good. It's good that 00:22:41.730 --> 00:22:44.309 he did that. And I also remember him talking 00:22:44.309 --> 00:22:48.829 about transglutaminase. The enzyme. Ah, sí. Yeah, 00:22:48.829 --> 00:22:52.069 also explaining that it's not harmful at all. 00:22:53.490 --> 00:22:56.210 He's an advanced person and a beautiful person, 00:22:56.289 --> 00:23:00.690 too. And now, but you went in the first time 00:23:00.690 --> 00:23:04.250 to finish your master's there or? To do my thesis, 00:23:04.490 --> 00:23:06.410 which was also something that I did at the same 00:23:06.410 --> 00:23:10.269 time. Okay. And what was the topic? Amazake. 00:23:10.710 --> 00:23:14.210 Ah, that's so cool. It is cool. Yeah, I had a 00:23:14.210 --> 00:23:18.369 lot of amazake in Japan. I love it. Really? People 00:23:18.369 --> 00:23:20.230 don't really know about amazake, I feel like. 00:23:21.699 --> 00:23:25.740 Well, I didn't know much about it. I mean, every 00:23:25.740 --> 00:23:29.619 time you start getting into fermentation and 00:23:29.619 --> 00:23:31.759 you learn what koji is and you know the products 00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:33.960 that are made with koji, then suddenly you go 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:37.759 like, okay, what is this? I know what sake is. 00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:42.720 I know what sake is. Who's this one? Right. It 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:47.660 is true. Phil, the co -host of the show, who's 00:23:47.660 --> 00:23:50.859 not here today, he recently did like a... a dessert 00:23:50.859 --> 00:23:55.000 with amasake. I don't know if the video is published 00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:58.079 already, but he did a video like a tartelette 00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:02.539 with amasake filling. I want to see that. I did 00:24:02.539 --> 00:24:06.240 a mochi with amasake. Also super nice. Because 00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:09.099 it's rice. It's rice in rice. Yeah, of course. 00:24:09.700 --> 00:24:14.039 I remember having one with matcha tea, which 00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:17.859 was super nice. It's such a special drink, I 00:24:17.859 --> 00:24:20.579 think. Yeah, like, how would you describe it? 00:24:20.619 --> 00:24:23.019 Because it's like a kind of like a milkshake, 00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:26.279 but then you have like this yeasty aromas in 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:30.440 the background. Okay, that's a little hard. There 00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:33.319 are two kinds of amasake, though. One is called 00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:36.279 koji amasake, which is made with koji, and then 00:24:36.279 --> 00:24:38.920 you have sake kasu amasake, which is the one 00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:41.579 that is made with the sake leaves, so like the 00:24:41.579 --> 00:24:44.980 solids from when you strain sake. You use that 00:24:44.980 --> 00:24:47.440 and you make amasake. That's the one that maybe 00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:50.690 is yeasty. because it has this the other one 00:24:50.690 --> 00:24:53.950 shouldn't um but how i would describe it for 00:24:53.950 --> 00:24:58.009 me amazake is like everything you thought about 00:24:58.009 --> 00:25:01.869 fermentation is wrong you know like if you think 00:25:01.869 --> 00:25:03.869 about fermentation you think about these things 00:25:03.869 --> 00:25:06.890 that are like funky aromas right a little bit 00:25:06.890 --> 00:25:10.349 almost like party if you pickle some radishes 00:25:10.349 --> 00:25:13.589 then who opens the jar i don't know uh but it's 00:25:13.589 --> 00:25:18.539 not me um And this for me is like, first of all, 00:25:18.539 --> 00:25:21.660 it's a super quick fermented process, which basically 00:25:21.660 --> 00:25:25.460 maybe last eight hours, 24 tops. But then also 00:25:25.460 --> 00:25:28.539 like the transformation, like you put the rice, 00:25:28.579 --> 00:25:30.799 put the koji, put it in the oven, leave it there 00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:34.259 for overnight. You come back and suddenly it's 00:25:34.259 --> 00:25:37.880 like a perfume that is like flowers and fruits, 00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:42.119 pineapple. I don't know, sweet, a little sour, 00:25:42.220 --> 00:25:47.039 but extremely sweet. And it's like, please, I 00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:49.980 want a perfume for myself with that. Which is 00:25:49.980 --> 00:25:52.259 weird to happen in fermentation if you think 00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:54.640 about it. Usually things, yeah, smell funky. 00:25:55.660 --> 00:25:58.859 Yeah, like, but I think like some of those aromas 00:25:58.859 --> 00:26:01.519 you described are the aromas I usually describe 00:26:01.519 --> 00:26:05.259 at Koji, like pineapple, this kind of thing. 00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:07.799 Yes, of course. But maybe not soy sauce, you 00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:09.339 don't see that, you know what I mean? Because 00:26:09.339 --> 00:26:13.140 of the main ingredient, I don't know. that you 00:26:13.140 --> 00:26:16.039 don't see those smells. In the koji, of course, 00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:18.279 but usually koji then is used to make something 00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:21.339 that changes a little bit in that profile, no? 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:25.099 With tamasake, I feel it makes it more strong. 00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:30.920 Yeah, I remember having that for breakfast every 00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:33.960 time I could in Japan. It's good. I love it. 00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:36.940 I don't even know why I started with tamasake. 00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:39.750 I think... The reason why is because a person 00:26:39.750 --> 00:26:41.809 that I really loved showed me how to do a masake, 00:26:41.930 --> 00:26:43.829 and I think that's why I fell in love with it. 00:26:44.089 --> 00:26:46.490 And then, of course, because it's a beautiful 00:26:46.490 --> 00:26:48.990 process, and of course, because doing research 00:26:48.990 --> 00:26:51.930 with something that is not taking me eight months 00:26:51.930 --> 00:26:54.369 to ferment is nice, you know, because you can 00:26:54.369 --> 00:26:57.910 actually get results at some point in your life. 00:26:59.150 --> 00:27:02.529 But I think that's the reason why, yeah. Super 00:27:02.529 --> 00:27:05.869 cool. So you finished your master and you're 00:27:05.869 --> 00:27:10.210 doing now your doctoral thesis. My PhD, because 00:27:10.210 --> 00:27:16.569 I didn't have enough. You have not enough. You're 00:27:16.569 --> 00:27:20.289 doing it in gastronomic sciences. Yes. I'm still 00:27:20.289 --> 00:27:23.849 working in fermentation. Now I'm doing research 00:27:23.849 --> 00:27:29.089 in a fermented beverage from an indigenous community. 00:27:30.230 --> 00:27:33.410 And basically I'm trying to understand the microbial. 00:27:33.869 --> 00:27:35.829 community that drives that fermentation process, 00:27:36.309 --> 00:27:38.849 how it changes from place to place, but also 00:27:38.849 --> 00:27:43.109 through the fermented period of time. I don't 00:27:43.109 --> 00:27:45.910 know, the volatiles that are created, the changes, 00:27:46.130 --> 00:27:49.829 physicochemical changes in the drink. But I think 00:27:49.829 --> 00:27:52.450 it's just, I don't know. I guess the main goal 00:27:52.450 --> 00:27:56.549 is just like trying to protect traditional indigenous 00:27:56.549 --> 00:28:00.569 knowledge. That's super cool. And when will it 00:28:00.569 --> 00:28:03.690 be published? Do I have a look at it? Yeah, because 00:28:03.690 --> 00:28:10.130 I cannot say much. Hopefully, in December, hopefully. 00:28:10.769 --> 00:28:14.710 Okay. I have many papers coming, so it's like, 00:28:14.829 --> 00:28:18.450 I'm not sure how we're going to do it yet, if 00:28:18.450 --> 00:28:20.849 all at the same time or little by little, but 00:28:20.849 --> 00:28:25.230 I'm doing a trip in less than a month. I'm going 00:28:25.230 --> 00:28:29.309 to be doing this research for a month in the 00:28:29.309 --> 00:28:32.930 field place. A secret location. A secret location. 00:28:34.210 --> 00:28:36.329 Somewhere in the south of the world. Somewhere 00:28:36.329 --> 00:28:38.549 in the south of the world. I'm going to be doing 00:28:38.549 --> 00:28:43.849 some weird things with five pets and swaps. Will 00:28:43.849 --> 00:28:46.269 you come to San Sebastian for your presentation? 00:28:46.630 --> 00:28:50.410 I hope so. I want to eat pintos before that. 00:28:50.910 --> 00:28:53.950 Let me know. Let me know. I'll be around. I would 00:28:53.950 --> 00:28:57.910 think so. Yeah. Super cool. Well, Alex, thank 00:28:57.910 --> 00:29:00.960 you so much for your time. Bueno, thank you for 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:07.140 inviting me. That's it for this week's episode 00:29:07.140 --> 00:29:09.759 of Potluck Food Talks. If you like what we're 00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:11.880 doing, make sure to subscribe to the podcast 00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:14.839 so you never miss an episode. You can also find 00:29:14.839 --> 00:29:17.640 us on Instagram and TikTok as Potluck Food Talks. 00:29:17.779 --> 00:29:19.359 The show airs every Monday.