WEBVTT 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:10.339 You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Hi, 00:00:10.400 --> 00:00:13.119 everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. Today, 00:00:13.279 --> 00:00:16.219 I'm here with Johan Jorgensen from Sweden Food 00:00:16.219 --> 00:00:19.300 Tech, and we're going to talk about food systems. 00:00:19.420 --> 00:00:21.059 How are you, Johan? How are you doing? Oh, I'm 00:00:21.059 --> 00:00:23.359 just fine. And talking about food systems is 00:00:23.359 --> 00:00:26.140 a lovely way to spend an afternoon. So let's 00:00:26.140 --> 00:00:27.839 start with the beginning. How did you end up 00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:30.079 in the food world? Because your background, as 00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:31.820 far as I understand, is like a techie background, 00:00:32.100 --> 00:00:34.820 right? Yeah, well, I'm a business school guy 00:00:34.820 --> 00:00:36.880 from the beginning. But many, many, many moons 00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:39.960 ago, I joined the Swedish internet scene at the 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:42.259 beginning of that movement. And I've spent my 00:00:42.259 --> 00:00:46.479 life in tech ever since. But in 2011, I was horribly, 00:00:46.520 --> 00:00:52.020 horribly bored with the tech sector and decided 00:00:52.020 --> 00:00:55.219 I need to get away from all these. crappy online 00:00:55.219 --> 00:00:59.340 casinos or dating apps. I was an investor at 00:00:59.340 --> 00:01:01.560 that time. And I said, I need to do something 00:01:01.560 --> 00:01:03.840 that is meaningful. And then, oops, what about 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:06.459 food? Because I'd been kind of interested in 00:01:06.459 --> 00:01:09.500 how to grow things with artificial light then, 00:01:09.540 --> 00:01:11.760 because that's semiconductor light and that's 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:14.439 very techy in a way. I was always fascinated 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:16.239 by tech. And then I said, okay, so what about 00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:19.959 food? And I took a dive and, oops, here we have 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:22.620 the largest sector on the planet and it's killing 00:01:22.620 --> 00:01:25.799 the planet. and everyone on it, and no innovation 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:29.680 to be seen anywhere, especially coming from the 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:33.040 tech sector. I've been part of transforming many 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:36.760 sectors over the years. I didn't see the remotest 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:41.790 similarity to that type of technological... how 00:01:41.790 --> 00:01:44.849 to say, profess or interest in the food sector. 00:01:44.950 --> 00:01:46.709 So it turned out to me, it's like, oh, this is 00:01:46.709 --> 00:01:50.150 a magic cocktail because this system really needs 00:01:50.150 --> 00:01:52.849 to transform badly and tech and innovation will 00:01:52.849 --> 00:01:55.689 be at the core of that. And the only question 00:01:55.689 --> 00:01:58.049 is when and where this will happen. I first met 00:01:58.049 --> 00:02:02.329 you, we were in Brussels. I remember your intro 00:02:02.329 --> 00:02:04.409 was incredible. You said something like, well, 00:02:04.530 --> 00:02:07.150 the food system is a problem. It's making us 00:02:07.150 --> 00:02:11.129 sick, poor, stupid. broke and something like 00:02:11.129 --> 00:02:13.849 that like i probably stapled all those invectives 00:02:13.849 --> 00:02:16.069 on top of each other because i i really think 00:02:16.069 --> 00:02:19.710 that that the food sector is a source of a lot 00:02:19.710 --> 00:02:22.550 of evil instead of a lot of good that it really 00:02:22.550 --> 00:02:25.629 could but a lot of food is of course good right 00:02:25.629 --> 00:02:29.490 but the system itself has been constructed in 00:02:29.490 --> 00:02:33.490 such a way that it really brings us shit instead 00:02:33.490 --> 00:02:37.180 of And I think when we start to correct food, 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:39.800 it's not just about producing better greens or 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:43.919 so. It's about addressing the system itself and 00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:46.759 how it has been constructed over the years. I 00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:49.939 mean, you know, all these big food companies, 00:02:50.020 --> 00:02:53.580 they get a lot of bad rap for basically doing 00:02:53.580 --> 00:02:56.840 what the system tells them to do. Now, let's 00:02:56.840 --> 00:03:00.039 back a bit here. So why do I think that the food 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:02.810 system... It's the thing to talk about rather 00:03:02.810 --> 00:03:05.729 than the players in the food system. Well, it's 00:03:05.729 --> 00:03:08.469 because we have this framework, this politically 00:03:08.469 --> 00:03:11.889 constructed framework around food. Everything 00:03:11.889 --> 00:03:15.729 from subsidies to the various types of legislations 00:03:15.729 --> 00:03:18.169 regarding what you can eat or what you can serve. 00:03:18.210 --> 00:03:22.530 And all of that is driving the players in the 00:03:22.530 --> 00:03:26.050 industry in a direction. And that direction is 00:03:26.050 --> 00:03:30.659 industrial large scale. So these large industrial 00:03:30.659 --> 00:03:34.159 food companies are only doing what they're supposed 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:37.180 to do within the realms of the system as we have 00:03:37.180 --> 00:03:40.080 constructed it. They act completely logically 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:42.939 and we shouldn't blame them for doing that because 00:03:42.939 --> 00:03:45.539 they're just acting as any other normal company 00:03:45.539 --> 00:03:48.539 would do. So if we want to shift or transform 00:03:48.539 --> 00:03:52.340 food, we need to start looking at the food system 00:03:52.340 --> 00:03:55.879 itself and how we have framed the food system. 00:03:56.349 --> 00:03:59.469 And then these players who are really smart and 00:03:59.469 --> 00:04:03.129 savvy, they can run in the right direction instead 00:04:03.129 --> 00:04:06.689 of the wrong direction. And, you know, we need 00:04:06.689 --> 00:04:09.710 their force and their competences. It just needs 00:04:09.710 --> 00:04:13.370 to be right, you know, directed in another, you 00:04:13.370 --> 00:04:17.509 know, in another direction. So, I mean, the food 00:04:17.509 --> 00:04:20.870 system is big and it's massive, but it has been 00:04:20.870 --> 00:04:23.870 constructed and reconstructed time and time again. 00:04:24.840 --> 00:04:27.379 So let's just do it another time. And this one, 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:31.860 let's make it happen so it stays with us. I guess 00:04:31.860 --> 00:04:34.439 this is one of those things that perhaps it was 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:36.459 not designed. There was not an architect behind 00:04:36.459 --> 00:04:39.480 it. It was just like forces that shaped it and 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:42.660 interests and these kind of things. But let's 00:04:42.660 --> 00:04:44.040 start with the beginning. Let's start with a 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:46.040 definition of what the food system is, because 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:50.139 I guess some listeners could be wondering what 00:04:50.139 --> 00:04:52.740 we're actually talking about. The way I understand 00:04:52.740 --> 00:04:55.689 it is not only, the production sector but there 00:04:55.689 --> 00:04:57.930 are it's more like an ecosystem where there are 00:04:57.930 --> 00:05:00.050 many things around and there could be logistics 00:05:00.050 --> 00:05:03.889 there could be journalists activists politicians 00:05:03.889 --> 00:05:08.670 also methods of productions and i would say at 00:05:08.670 --> 00:05:11.870 the very end is a consumer and just next to the 00:05:11.870 --> 00:05:15.209 consumer would be let's say markets supermarkets 00:05:15.209 --> 00:05:18.930 and also restaurants and chefs that also can 00:05:18.930 --> 00:05:22.470 play a role in shaping the demand and the way 00:05:22.470 --> 00:05:26.170 of consuming. Like, does that make sense to you? 00:05:26.350 --> 00:05:28.209 Yeah, it makes, you know, to me, food says miss 00:05:28.209 --> 00:05:30.670 everything. I mean, food is running the planet. 00:05:31.110 --> 00:05:35.649 And, you know, mind you, it's also the part of 00:05:35.649 --> 00:05:39.370 how good grades the kids get at school. That 00:05:39.370 --> 00:05:42.129 depends on how we feed them, how productive we 00:05:42.129 --> 00:05:45.230 are at work. It depends on how well we eat. much 00:05:45.230 --> 00:05:48.189 in the same way as a top athlete performs better 00:05:48.189 --> 00:05:51.529 or worse, depending on if he or she has eaten 00:05:51.529 --> 00:05:55.110 well or the correct stuff. So food is affecting 00:05:55.110 --> 00:05:58.149 everything, and that we must understand. And 00:05:58.149 --> 00:05:59.850 then I think it's also important to understand 00:05:59.850 --> 00:06:03.790 that food is not just primarily, in my book at 00:06:03.790 --> 00:06:06.670 least, about food, but rather that what's on 00:06:06.670 --> 00:06:10.839 the plate, right? The effects of food on health, 00:06:10.860 --> 00:06:14.540 so to say, our health systems as also food system, 00:06:14.620 --> 00:06:19.220 because some 80 to 90 percent of all the health 00:06:19.220 --> 00:06:22.240 care budgets goes towards chronic diseases such 00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:26.199 as cancer, diabetes or, you know, heart attacks. 00:06:26.459 --> 00:06:30.639 And those diseases come out of bad consumption 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:34.579 habits, mainly food, some tobacco, some alcohol, 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:37.480 but mainly food. And the same thing goes for 00:06:37.480 --> 00:06:40.560 the environment. So all our environmental negative 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:43.379 effects today, we could fix the climate by fixing 00:06:43.379 --> 00:06:48.920 food. Piece of cake. But we need to realize that 00:06:48.920 --> 00:06:52.480 food is the major culprit when it comes to climate 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:56.399 degradation. Do you have a particular take on 00:06:56.399 --> 00:07:01.019 what could be some strategies or directions or 00:07:01.019 --> 00:07:06.100 which are the players that could help in reshaping 00:07:06.100 --> 00:07:10.399 or rethinking the way we interact with the food 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:13.740 system? Ultimately, this is about political leadership, 00:07:13.899 --> 00:07:17.319 political insights, or insights rather, that 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:21.699 policymakers... internalize and then react upon 00:07:21.699 --> 00:07:24.459 and then realize they can actually do things 00:07:24.459 --> 00:07:27.519 with the stroke of a pen. So let's back a bit 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:31.160 in time. So the industrial food system that we 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:33.420 have today is basically a construct from the 00:07:33.420 --> 00:07:37.500 1950s, 1960s, when we realized that demographic 00:07:37.500 --> 00:07:40.560 curve of planet Earth told us, yeah, we'll be 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:43.879 four times the population that we are today and 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:46.459 we need to feed them. How the hell are we supposed 00:07:46.459 --> 00:07:50.120 to do that? And we threw exactly everything we 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:54.120 had at the problem. You know, industrial scale 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:59.160 machinery, new financing solutions. We banged 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:01.379 farms together in order to increase industrial 00:08:01.379 --> 00:08:04.600 efficiencies. And lo and behold, we actually 00:08:04.600 --> 00:08:08.259 fixed it. So we have enough food today to feed 00:08:08.259 --> 00:08:10.740 close to 10 billion people, right? I understand 00:08:10.740 --> 00:08:13.560 also that... This period you were talking about, 00:08:13.740 --> 00:08:16.699 like the Marshall Plan had an important role 00:08:16.699 --> 00:08:20.139 in it, which was the plan of the American army 00:08:20.139 --> 00:08:22.920 to rebuild the food system in Europe after World 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:27.319 War II. And after it was implemented, it stayed 00:08:27.319 --> 00:08:30.350 like that, which was like a... like a war measure, 00:08:30.509 --> 00:08:33.090 a way to, like an emergency measure, and it stayed 00:08:33.090 --> 00:08:36.570 like that for decades. Food was being produced 00:08:36.570 --> 00:08:39.029 with lots of fertilizing, heavy machinery, this 00:08:39.029 --> 00:08:41.870 green revolution you were talking about, that's 00:08:41.870 --> 00:08:44.330 how it was called. And yeah, at the end of the 00:08:44.330 --> 00:08:48.250 day, we destroyed very valuable things we had 00:08:48.250 --> 00:08:52.309 in the previous food system. Yeah, yeah. We must 00:08:52.309 --> 00:08:54.570 remember, however, that the previous food system 00:08:54.570 --> 00:08:59.289 that we had wasn't up to the task. We couldn't 00:08:59.289 --> 00:09:02.809 produce food for 10 billion people or 8 billion 00:09:02.809 --> 00:09:08.529 people with the methods we had before, smallholder 00:09:08.529 --> 00:09:11.370 farms, etc. We weren't up to the task. So it 00:09:11.370 --> 00:09:14.889 was the failure of that system to scale to the 00:09:14.889 --> 00:09:18.659 extent of the population explosion. That required 00:09:18.659 --> 00:09:21.159 us to think in new ways, like the Green Revolution, 00:09:21.220 --> 00:09:23.360 where we, as you said, we introduced pesticides 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:27.759 and fertilizers and super greens, super seeds, 00:09:27.980 --> 00:09:32.100 etc. And we must also realize that the founder 00:09:32.100 --> 00:09:35.039 of this movement, the scientist Norman Borlaug, 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:38.960 got the Nobel Peace Prize for inventing the Green 00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:41.659 Revolution, essentially. His take on this was 00:09:41.659 --> 00:09:44.360 basically, yeah, I hope this can buy us a couple 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:47.909 of decades. And within that time frame, we need 00:09:47.909 --> 00:09:50.470 to rebuild our food system into something that, 00:09:50.509 --> 00:09:52.110 of course, provides health and sustainability. 00:09:52.750 --> 00:09:57.970 But everyone got hooked on this industrial calorie 00:09:57.970 --> 00:10:01.110 machine that could produce safe and cheap calories 00:10:01.110 --> 00:10:05.610 and just push them out there. That gave rise 00:10:05.610 --> 00:10:09.750 to the fast food sector, to various types of 00:10:09.750 --> 00:10:14.809 new dishes that we consume in Sweden, for instance. 00:10:15.830 --> 00:10:20.549 Low quality, cheap, high availabilities, can 00:10:20.549 --> 00:10:24.870 be stored forever. We put ourselves on a grain 00:10:24.870 --> 00:10:29.990 diet instead of a green diet. And that has proven 00:10:29.990 --> 00:10:33.250 very detrimental. I think what we see now is 00:10:33.250 --> 00:10:36.129 that we get it in the neck now. So now we need 00:10:36.129 --> 00:10:38.490 to fix another problem. Okay, so we have food. 00:10:38.649 --> 00:10:40.570 Now we must make sure that we have food that's 00:10:40.570 --> 00:10:43.360 good for us and the planet. And that's the next 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:46.019 green revolution. It's going to be of a similar 00:10:46.019 --> 00:10:49.860 magnitude as the previous revolution. But it 00:10:49.860 --> 00:10:53.639 seems really hard for us to understand and wrap 00:10:53.639 --> 00:10:57.460 our heads around this transformation. And we 00:10:57.460 --> 00:11:00.700 must remember that there was a huge debate going 00:11:00.700 --> 00:11:04.440 on during the time when we introduced and cemented 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:07.139 this industrial food system. Everyone was, you 00:11:07.139 --> 00:11:09.820 know, all these small farms that were forced 00:11:09.820 --> 00:11:12.500 to close and people had to sell and move to the 00:11:12.500 --> 00:11:15.919 cities. And we saw, you know... Fewer and fewer 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:19.320 farms producing milk or whatever it was. And 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:22.039 there has always been a huge debate about that. 00:11:22.179 --> 00:11:24.879 And now I look forward to another type of debate 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:29.700 regarding how we transform or tear down and rebuild, 00:11:30.139 --> 00:11:32.940 if you like, the food system of today. So for 00:11:32.940 --> 00:11:35.879 me, that has to be fueled with the technologies 00:11:35.879 --> 00:11:38.440 and the innovations that we have under our hands 00:11:38.440 --> 00:11:41.710 today, much in the same way as we scaled. the 00:11:41.710 --> 00:11:44.769 industrial food system that we have today, with 00:11:44.769 --> 00:11:47.690 the technologies and innovations we had in the 00:11:47.690 --> 00:11:52.629 1960s, we have come further since then. And so 00:11:52.629 --> 00:11:55.629 now we can use what's at our disposal right now 00:11:55.629 --> 00:11:58.809 and then turn this food system around. And I 00:11:58.809 --> 00:12:01.710 think it should just be a positive thing for 00:12:01.710 --> 00:12:05.070 everyone, including the current food system players. 00:12:05.149 --> 00:12:08.629 I think... However, that we're mentally very, 00:12:08.730 --> 00:12:12.870 very reluctant to change things that are so fundamental 00:12:12.870 --> 00:12:17.110 and close to us, such as food, that makes it 00:12:17.110 --> 00:12:19.769 tricky. But you could also say it's an even more 00:12:19.769 --> 00:12:24.009 fun and challenging potential. Our main audience 00:12:24.009 --> 00:12:27.850 on this show are chefs and cooks. So what could 00:12:27.850 --> 00:12:30.549 you say about, do you think chefs and cooks have 00:12:30.549 --> 00:12:34.409 a role that, or they have like a frame of action 00:12:34.409 --> 00:12:36.990 within transforming the food system? Or do you 00:12:36.990 --> 00:12:39.570 know any cases where this has been the case, 00:12:39.629 --> 00:12:43.029 actually? I think this is, you're nailing it 00:12:43.029 --> 00:12:46.230 here, Eric, because chefs and food professionals, 00:12:46.370 --> 00:12:48.389 those are the people who will shift the planet. 00:12:48.649 --> 00:12:51.399 It's not consumers. It's not consumers going 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:53.980 to the retailer and buying new ingredients and 00:12:53.980 --> 00:12:57.179 cooking them up at home because regular people 00:12:57.179 --> 00:13:00.059 don't know how to do that. If I take a look at 00:13:00.059 --> 00:13:03.460 my own home country in Sweden, you guys, you 00:13:03.460 --> 00:13:07.299 sit in Spain and the Basque country and everyone 00:13:07.299 --> 00:13:11.340 is a super chef there. But in my home country, 00:13:11.460 --> 00:13:14.379 people don't like to cook and they cook very 00:13:14.379 --> 00:13:18.440 badly. So how do they construct meals? Well, 00:13:18.460 --> 00:13:21.720 they take... Dried pasta, boil that up, serve 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:25.080 that together with ready -made meatballs and 00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:27.820 a sprinkle of ketchup, a generous sprinkle of 00:13:27.820 --> 00:13:30.759 ketchup. That's one of Sweden's favorite dishes, 00:13:30.980 --> 00:13:34.120 right? And the other favorite dishes look exactly 00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:37.460 like that. It's like taco. Fry up minced meat, 00:13:37.740 --> 00:13:42.039 pour a bag of ready -made spices on top of that, 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:46.840 serve it with canned maize, hack some cucumber 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:50.379 and onions, and there you go. Again, open up 00:13:50.379 --> 00:13:55.559 a jar of ready -made sauce and top the tortilla 00:13:55.559 --> 00:13:59.179 with that one. So, I mean, it's hilarious how 00:13:59.179 --> 00:14:02.059 bad people are in the kitchen. And the only way 00:14:02.059 --> 00:14:06.340 forward, I guess, is to involve all these chefs 00:14:06.340 --> 00:14:09.480 and professionals in the kitchen who can cook. 00:14:10.210 --> 00:14:13.129 healthy and sustainable meals for us. So I think 00:14:13.129 --> 00:14:15.850 we need to reorganize the food system. That's 00:14:15.850 --> 00:14:18.769 one of the key parts of the next green revolution 00:14:18.769 --> 00:14:23.429 is reorganizing how we cook and eat food in the 00:14:23.429 --> 00:14:26.470 world. And the pros need to step in and the pros 00:14:26.470 --> 00:14:29.090 need to step in and they need to use all tools 00:14:29.090 --> 00:14:32.610 at their availability, such as machines or novel 00:14:32.610 --> 00:14:36.389 ingredients and things only they can make sense 00:14:36.389 --> 00:14:40.750 of. And then we perhaps can scale to Well, scale 00:14:40.750 --> 00:14:44.350 the next -gen food system. You guys who listen 00:14:44.350 --> 00:14:46.230 to this, you are the most important people in 00:14:46.230 --> 00:14:48.710 the world. And I think you should take your rightful 00:14:48.710 --> 00:14:52.669 position as those most important people in the 00:14:52.669 --> 00:14:56.250 world. And you deserve recognition for what the 00:14:56.250 --> 00:14:59.570 amazing magic you do every day in your kitchens 00:14:59.570 --> 00:15:02.470 and realize that you are the only ones who can 00:15:02.470 --> 00:15:05.070 fix this. Here in the show, we've done a couple 00:15:05.070 --> 00:15:09.399 of episodes. talking with some players, some 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:14.200 actors that played a role in the New Nordic cuisine 00:15:14.200 --> 00:15:18.139 movement. And I was wondering, how did this impact 00:15:18.139 --> 00:15:21.980 Sweden? Did it change? What were the changes? 00:15:22.059 --> 00:15:24.860 Is it something that you could see, like across 00:15:24.860 --> 00:15:26.700 the street, for example, or in the supermarket? 00:15:27.940 --> 00:15:31.159 I'd say mostly in the attitude towards food. 00:15:31.259 --> 00:15:34.740 And what happened before New Nordic came about 00:15:34.740 --> 00:15:38.580 was that we cooked like... french people in sweden 00:15:38.580 --> 00:15:43.240 we tried to emulate the french and uh and then 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.019 suddenly someone said yeah but do we have anything 00:15:46.019 --> 00:15:48.860 to contribute you you must remember the history 00:15:48.860 --> 00:15:51.340 of food in sweden or the nordics that's it's 00:15:51.340 --> 00:15:54.519 porridge Yeah, as far as I understand, there 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:57.879 was very strong religious constraints, right? 00:15:58.059 --> 00:16:00.759 Like it was a sin to have like a super pleasurable 00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:05.059 meal. Oh, that too, that too. I'm like, we're 00:16:05.059 --> 00:16:08.379 in Protestant territory here. Exactly. But we're 00:16:08.379 --> 00:16:11.220 also in the far northern latitudes, so not much 00:16:11.220 --> 00:16:14.419 grows here. So it has been a very strong, you 00:16:14.419 --> 00:16:16.799 know, milk and meat tradition. And that's why 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:19.200 Swedes still can stand to drink milk, because 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:22.279 we have the necessary enzymes. But it really 00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:25.259 isn't a food culture in the sense that you guys 00:16:25.259 --> 00:16:27.899 think about it as a food culture. So I'd say 00:16:27.899 --> 00:16:31.100 that what happened with New Nordic was that we 00:16:31.100 --> 00:16:34.179 liberated ourselves from the constraints, the 00:16:34.179 --> 00:16:36.960 French constraints, with the help of innovation. 00:16:37.379 --> 00:16:39.059 Suddenly we said, yeah, no, we can innovate. 00:16:39.159 --> 00:16:41.700 We can work with what we have. It's not totally 00:16:41.700 --> 00:16:45.700 crap, everything. We can find and define a new 00:16:45.700 --> 00:16:48.960 type of cuisine that's more... you know, close 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:52.720 to nature, innovative, no limitations really, 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:56.320 seasonal. I mean, it's a lot of the stuff that 00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:59.000 we're talking about today as a necessity for 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:02.419 transforming the food system, as opposed to going 00:17:02.419 --> 00:17:05.180 back to, so to say, old school French cooking 00:17:05.180 --> 00:17:09.829 with sauces and whatever have you, recipes. Yeah, 00:17:09.869 --> 00:17:12.869 all the French foundations, yeah. Yeah, the French 00:17:12.869 --> 00:17:15.390 foundations, the techniques, the recipes, the 00:17:15.390 --> 00:17:18.309 ingredients. So that was very liberating and 00:17:18.309 --> 00:17:22.329 it was innovative in a way to be able to free 00:17:22.329 --> 00:17:24.549 yourself of the shackles of the old system and 00:17:24.549 --> 00:17:27.539 to be able to move ahead. You could basically 00:17:27.539 --> 00:17:31.059 say a fusion cooking is, new Nordic cooking is 00:17:31.059 --> 00:17:33.460 kind of a fusion cooking because you could suddenly, 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:35.619 you know, take whatever you had out there in 00:17:35.619 --> 00:17:38.500 terms of techniques or ingredients and make do 00:17:38.500 --> 00:17:41.099 with them and start making interesting new things 00:17:41.099 --> 00:17:43.500 happen. And that has liberated, I think, the 00:17:43.500 --> 00:17:46.420 mindset of a generation or several generations 00:17:46.420 --> 00:17:51.099 of chefs coming after these pioneers, you know, 00:17:51.099 --> 00:17:53.579 freeing themselves and saying, yeah, food can 00:17:53.579 --> 00:17:59.109 be really interesting. experience not just a 00:17:59.109 --> 00:18:01.589 well -tasting dish it's it could be something 00:18:01.589 --> 00:18:05.009 else and i think the typical example of this 00:18:05.009 --> 00:18:07.609 is really i think we're the best one of the best 00:18:07.609 --> 00:18:10.690 examples is the danish restaurant the alchemist 00:18:10.690 --> 00:18:12.950 that i think everyone on your show probably has 00:18:12.950 --> 00:18:16.170 heard of oh yeah of course and where they serve 00:18:16.170 --> 00:18:20.589 this dessert that that that is made partly out 00:18:20.589 --> 00:18:24.619 of blood And it comes in the form of, there's 00:18:24.619 --> 00:18:27.400 a QR code on the plate. I don't know exactly 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:31.180 how they do it. Some flour through a specific 00:18:31.180 --> 00:18:35.819 QR code. I don't know. And then what happens? 00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:39.279 People take up their phones to take a picture 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:41.799 of the dish. That's what they always do, right? 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:47.000 Camera eats first. Yeah, exactly. That would 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:49.220 be another way of attacking it. But people take 00:18:49.220 --> 00:18:51.970 up their phones. They try to take a picture. 00:18:52.009 --> 00:18:54.309 What happens, of course, when you hover a phone 00:18:54.309 --> 00:18:57.890 over QR code is that it takes you to a web address. 00:18:58.029 --> 00:19:00.930 In this case, the sign -up page for blood donorship 00:19:00.930 --> 00:19:04.990 in Denmark. And they have this magnificent conversion 00:19:04.990 --> 00:19:08.349 rate. And that is, you know, suddenly placing 00:19:08.349 --> 00:19:12.990 food in some sort of societal context. And I 00:19:12.990 --> 00:19:15.349 think that's what chefs have started to play 00:19:15.349 --> 00:19:18.509 around with. So they're not anymore just people. 00:19:19.019 --> 00:19:22.400 doing dishes in the kitchen. They try to be actors 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:26.460 in society. And I also had this discussion with 00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:28.839 a Swedish chef called Markus Samuelsson, who 00:19:28.839 --> 00:19:31.539 has a great restaurant in New York. Yeah, he 00:19:31.539 --> 00:19:34.660 has a Swedish and Nordic restaurant. Before, 00:19:34.779 --> 00:19:37.380 Nordic was a thing in New York. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:19:37.539 --> 00:19:40.180 Already plenty, 30 years ago, yeah. Exactly. 00:19:40.180 --> 00:19:43.140 Aquavit was his first place, I remember. Yes, 00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:46.039 yes, exactly. And when we had this discussion 00:19:46.039 --> 00:19:48.809 regarding how COVID When COVID came, New York 00:19:48.809 --> 00:19:51.349 was emptied, right? So all the people who could, 00:19:51.470 --> 00:19:54.910 they left New York for their summer houses. But 00:19:54.910 --> 00:19:57.869 he was there and he realized that, yeah, someone 00:19:57.869 --> 00:20:00.609 needs to feed all these first responders, the 00:20:00.609 --> 00:20:06.569 nurses, the firemen, the police. And he realized 00:20:06.569 --> 00:20:09.150 then that, yeah, no, as a chef, I'm not just 00:20:09.150 --> 00:20:11.349 running a restaurant. I'm a community leader. 00:20:11.670 --> 00:20:16.200 And he said he felt that was... affecting him 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:20.700 quite a lot in seeing himself as a chef in a 00:20:20.700 --> 00:20:24.099 transformed society and i think that is also 00:20:24.099 --> 00:20:26.839 how chefs need to see themselves as the players 00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:30.460 the actors who transform food now and not just 00:20:30.460 --> 00:20:34.380 being no chefs in the restaurant and we've seen 00:20:34.380 --> 00:20:37.480 i think also super interesting how chefs go out 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:42.140 of the kitchens and into various types of innovative 00:20:42.140 --> 00:20:45.819 positions So, for instance, we have this company 00:20:45.819 --> 00:20:49.960 called Endless in the Nordics coming out of what 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:52.960 was Amas, I think it was. Yeah, with Matt Orlando, 00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:57.220 yes. Matt Orlando, exactly. So Matt is on board 00:20:57.220 --> 00:20:59.180 with Endless with a couple of other guys, and 00:20:59.180 --> 00:21:03.680 they make chocolate out of old beer grains. Oh, 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:06.000 yeah, I've heard about the project. Yeah, it's 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.460 a fascinating project. It is absolutely a fascinating 00:21:08.460 --> 00:21:11.900 project, and they do that based on their expertise 00:21:11.900 --> 00:21:17.180 in fermenting. And so suddenly they could take 00:21:17.180 --> 00:21:20.319 their chef knowledge and suddenly start to build 00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:23.319 products in this case or start attacking one 00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:25.579 of the largest problems on this earth, which 00:21:25.579 --> 00:21:27.960 is that we will run out of chocolate. But now 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:29.880 we can still have that chocolate experience. 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:33.519 We can save the true chocolate for the chocolate 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:35.759 experience and we can replace chocolate as an 00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:38.640 ingredient with the endless stuff. And it's truly 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:42.220 endless because as long as we drink beer, we 00:21:42.220 --> 00:21:44.809 can have chocolate. And I think that's a wonderful 00:21:44.809 --> 00:21:49.329 prospect. Yes, that sounds amazing. No, no, definitely. 00:21:49.630 --> 00:21:53.390 I think I can also think of NotCo. You know this 00:21:53.390 --> 00:21:57.789 company in the States? It was originally, I don't 00:21:57.789 --> 00:21:59.769 think it can be called a startup anymore. It's 00:21:59.769 --> 00:22:02.910 already like a scale -up. And I saw a TED talk 00:22:02.910 --> 00:22:06.390 of Matias, the founder of NotCo, like an old 00:22:06.390 --> 00:22:08.890 one before it was like the huge thing that is 00:22:08.890 --> 00:22:11.829 today. And he was calculating, like the same 00:22:11.829 --> 00:22:13.609 talk we had at the beginning. He was talking, 00:22:13.750 --> 00:22:16.829 because this is still a big topic, like will 00:22:16.829 --> 00:22:20.710 we as humans be able to feed ourselves in the 00:22:20.710 --> 00:22:25.410 year 2050? Which is a question that has not answered 00:22:25.410 --> 00:22:29.619 yet. But on the study he was talking about, it 00:22:29.619 --> 00:22:33.559 said that if we continue eating heavily on animal 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:36.519 protein, the way we're doing today, the possibilities 00:22:36.519 --> 00:22:41.920 are around 15 % to 20 % to actually make it. 00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:46.619 And if it's using heavily on vegetable -based 00:22:46.619 --> 00:22:49.940 products, the possibility was of 100%, which 00:22:49.940 --> 00:22:53.789 is... Interesting, right? And I think that also 00:22:53.789 --> 00:22:56.869 requires a mind shift because, for example, my 00:22:56.869 --> 00:23:00.670 generation and many of the people born, let's 00:23:00.670 --> 00:23:03.910 say, in the 80s or 90s, we were raised in a way 00:23:03.910 --> 00:23:06.710 where the conception of a dish is like a big 00:23:06.710 --> 00:23:09.109 piece of meat and vegetables around and not the 00:23:09.109 --> 00:23:11.329 other way around. For example, like the way the 00:23:11.329 --> 00:23:15.049 Chinese eat, where they have like a wok of lots 00:23:15.049 --> 00:23:18.049 of vegetables and some bacon or some, you know, 00:23:18.109 --> 00:23:21.569 like cured. pork or whatever, just to give it 00:23:21.569 --> 00:23:24.029 flavor, but not to be the central part of the... 00:23:24.029 --> 00:23:27.049 And I think that's not only the healthiest way, 00:23:27.130 --> 00:23:31.230 but also the most sustainable way to eat. Definitely. 00:23:31.230 --> 00:23:33.390 And I mean, that's also how we've seen some of 00:23:33.390 --> 00:23:35.869 the chefs, you know, responding in Sweden too. 00:23:35.970 --> 00:23:38.430 We have one that's called Paul Svensson, which 00:23:38.430 --> 00:23:42.069 is one of the local heroes. And that's his philosophy, 00:23:42.250 --> 00:23:45.210 you know, make veggies the centerpiece of the 00:23:45.210 --> 00:23:48.630 plate and meat as some sort of addition aside. 00:23:49.210 --> 00:23:51.990 An essential. That's, of course, the way to go. 00:23:52.069 --> 00:23:53.869 But then, of course, we need to make sure that 00:23:53.869 --> 00:23:58.730 these veggies are super tasty. Of course. And 00:23:58.730 --> 00:24:01.170 that's, again, only chefs can do that. People 00:24:01.170 --> 00:24:03.470 in their, you know, regular dudes in Sweden, 00:24:03.529 --> 00:24:05.930 perhaps, again, not in the Basque country, but 00:24:05.930 --> 00:24:08.670 in Sweden, regular people cannot make that happen. 00:24:09.250 --> 00:24:11.269 We don't have access to the greens and we don't 00:24:11.269 --> 00:24:13.529 have access to the knowledge. So we need some 00:24:13.529 --> 00:24:16.049 help in order to do that. And as you say, if 00:24:16.049 --> 00:24:19.660 we can do that. conversion from meat to veggies 00:24:19.660 --> 00:24:23.359 instead, without sacrificing taste, then we can 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:26.619 save the planet and be healthier. So yeah, it's 00:24:26.619 --> 00:24:30.700 a win -win, as they say. I also wanted to ask 00:24:30.700 --> 00:24:33.839 you about Sweden Food Tech and the event you're 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:36.000 organizing for September, if you could share 00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:39.640 a little bit about that. Sure. So Sweden Food 00:24:39.640 --> 00:24:41.960 Tech is a think tank that I lead together with 00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:45.180 some colleagues, and we do basically three things. 00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:49.799 give people advice on where is food heading, 00:24:49.940 --> 00:24:52.680 you know, strategic advice. So not what type 00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:55.220 of flavor should we have for Coke next year, 00:24:55.299 --> 00:24:57.640 but, you know, the real transformative stuff. 00:24:58.759 --> 00:25:01.420 We're always science -based. It's not just speculation. 00:25:01.420 --> 00:25:04.240 We talk about the stuff that you can see around 00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:07.140 the corner if you have the ability to see around 00:25:07.140 --> 00:25:09.599 corners. And, you know, once people then wake 00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:11.880 up and say, okay, so I thought I was in the sewage 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:14.220 business, but now I come to realize that I'm 00:25:14.220 --> 00:25:18.279 part of the food web. Yes, you are. So who should 00:25:18.279 --> 00:25:21.440 I talk to? Who are my new best friends out there? 00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:23.819 And I say, yeah, sure, let's connect you to a 00:25:23.819 --> 00:25:26.119 couple of those. That could be chefs or entrepreneurs 00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:29.759 or scientists or other players out there. You 00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:33.460 could turn sewage water into basically anything 00:25:33.460 --> 00:25:35.940 with the help of modern technology and some fermentation. 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:39.019 And once people have started to do that, they 00:25:39.019 --> 00:25:42.099 rapidly see that, shit, this is a... really large 00:25:42.099 --> 00:25:44.180 sector and I can make an imprint here. So suddenly 00:25:44.180 --> 00:25:48.259 the food sector grows in all various directions. 00:25:48.660 --> 00:25:52.539 And once a year we run something called, it's 00:25:52.539 --> 00:25:55.279 nowadays called the Bite Stockholm, bitestockholm 00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:57.900 .com. And that is a big show that we do together 00:25:57.900 --> 00:26:01.619 with the Stockholm Fairs, where we try to build 00:26:01.619 --> 00:26:05.259 a completely new meeting spot for the future 00:26:05.259 --> 00:26:07.920 of food. It's basically based on the fact that 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:11.329 we burnt down their old... food trade show. And 00:26:11.329 --> 00:26:13.950 so I said, this is shit. This doesn't cut it 00:26:13.950 --> 00:26:16.309 anymore. We need to do something about it. And 00:26:16.309 --> 00:26:20.890 so we reinvented the Bite Stockholm food meeting 00:26:20.890 --> 00:26:25.329 spot. And we poured into this also our own yearly 00:26:25.329 --> 00:26:28.029 summit called The Big Meat. So it's going to 00:26:28.029 --> 00:26:31.490 be a trade show, a summit, and not the least, 00:26:31.509 --> 00:26:34.589 a fantastic test kitchen where we're going to... 00:26:34.859 --> 00:26:38.259 test stuff uh you know new ingredients new machinery 00:26:38.259 --> 00:26:41.380 new concepts together with some of the best chefs 00:26:41.380 --> 00:26:43.880 in the world eric i hope you will come and join 00:26:43.880 --> 00:26:47.660 us in the kitchen i will i will make everything 00:26:47.660 --> 00:26:50.259 i have in my hands yeah i will make it one way 00:26:50.259 --> 00:26:52.559 or the other yeah just see you guys i mean like 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:55.019 that's you know we need to we need to have the 00:26:55.019 --> 00:26:58.339 expertise and the The innovation power of the 00:26:58.339 --> 00:27:01.759 truest, greatest chefs out there are to make 00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:04.200 this. And we try to put them front and center. 00:27:04.299 --> 00:27:07.079 So actually, we have the commis in the kitchen. 00:27:07.220 --> 00:27:08.839 That will be the venture capitalists and the 00:27:08.839 --> 00:27:11.180 buyers. So they will be there chopping onions 00:27:11.180 --> 00:27:14.980 and doing the dishes. But learning from the best. 00:27:15.460 --> 00:27:18.619 And also, a last question I wanted to make you. 00:27:18.740 --> 00:27:21.599 So as I mentioned, our audience are mostly chefs. 00:27:22.099 --> 00:27:25.480 Which could you say that are now... chefs that 00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:27.720 are doing really interesting stuff in Sweden 00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:30.799 that are worth checking their work for someone 00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.880 who wants to have a first approach to the Swedish 00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:38.380 food scene or restaurant scene? Oh my god, you 00:27:38.380 --> 00:27:43.119 should have prepared me for this one. There are 00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:47.160 several great, so to say, fine dining chefs. 00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:52.630 I'd probably take a close look at... Jesse Sommarström, 00:27:52.730 --> 00:27:57.190 which is young and she's already hit the world. 00:27:57.329 --> 00:28:01.829 And she cooked the Nobel dinner. The Nobel Prize 00:28:01.829 --> 00:28:05.029 winners always are invited to a huge, big, fancy 00:28:05.029 --> 00:28:07.430 dinner. And she cooked that this year. And she, 00:28:07.450 --> 00:28:10.930 for instance, used hydrothermically processed 00:28:10.930 --> 00:28:15.539 grains in order to cook a porridge. Where the 00:28:15.539 --> 00:28:19.579 processing of the grains make all the nutrients 00:28:19.579 --> 00:28:22.559 in the porridge available. She removes the anti 00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:25.519 -nutrients from the porridge. And that was a 00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:30.839 big coup. She's also helped IKEA to this furniture 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:33.140 store that's blue and yellow coming from Sweden. 00:28:33.299 --> 00:28:36.039 That you might have heard of. I've heard about 00:28:36.039 --> 00:28:38.160 it, yeah, I think so. And they're big in meatballs. 00:28:38.420 --> 00:28:41.039 And she's now constructed a 50 -50 or hybrid 00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:44.180 meatball for IKEA. That's going to hit the restaurants 00:28:44.180 --> 00:28:47.240 now as well. Okay, super interesting. Yeah, so 00:28:47.240 --> 00:28:51.619 she's super cool. Yeah, that is definitely one 00:28:51.619 --> 00:28:56.119 of them. I think one of the most fun restaurants 00:28:56.119 --> 00:28:59.559 in Stockholm is a restaurant called Punk Real, 00:28:59.740 --> 00:29:05.400 which is a fine dining but super punky experience. 00:29:06.059 --> 00:29:10.400 Loud, noisy, you know, a lot of smoke, high energy. 00:29:11.300 --> 00:29:15.160 loads of alcohol flowing party party party uh 00:29:15.160 --> 00:29:18.299 it's it's it's absolutely totally crazy shit 00:29:18.299 --> 00:29:21.240 and there you cannot bring in your phones that's 00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:24.839 the first thing they snack from you and then 00:29:24.839 --> 00:29:27.859 they put them in a in a locked uh that's very 00:29:27.859 --> 00:29:32.240 punk definitely no camera no problem totally 00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:34.559 agree with you that that's also fun they've expanded 00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:37.859 and they're now a chain Like McDonald's that 00:29:37.859 --> 00:29:40.799 exists in several countries. That's not so punk, 00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:45.160 but okay. That's not so punk, but hey, it works. 00:29:45.579 --> 00:29:53.079 Yeah, sure. Amazing. That's it for this week's 00:29:53.079 --> 00:29:55.819 episode of Potluck Food Talks. If you like what 00:29:55.819 --> 00:29:58.119 we're doing, make sure to subscribe to the podcast 00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:01.079 so you never miss an episode. You can also find 00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:03.880 us on Instagram and TikTok as Potluck Food Talks. 00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.619 The show airs every Monday.