You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Hi,
everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. We're
recording live in San Sebastian. And we're going
to talk about cheeses. Mmm. Cheeses Christ. Cheeses.
Cheeses Christ. Cheese. The wonderful world of
cheese. You got a favorite cheese? It's a hard
question. I don't think I have a favorite cheese.
Yeah, hard question. The world of cheese is so
huge. Yeah, and it's also so versatile the way
that you can use cheese in culinary applications.
You know, like you can just serve it plain as
a cheese plate. Do you ever serve cheese plates?
Yes. i feel a little bit mixed about i have mixed
feelings about cheese plates uh why yeah i don't
know it's uh i'm a fan of serving eight cheese
with maybe like one or two condiments that kind
of complement the cheese and i like to keep it
sort of seasonal you know that you like change
the cheese A cheese plate for me is like something
that I love a cheese plate and I love like going
to like a bistro like in the afternoon or something.
It's not really like a thing, a selection of
cheese. If you're in a cheese country like here
in the Basque country, for example, you know,
it's different. But I don't know, like now that
I'm thinking about it, I have really mixed feelings
about it because something about it is kind of
like you have to think about whether it fits
into your restaurant or not. And it's a lot of
times, you know what it is, a lot of times it's
something that I don't have on a menu and people
are like, can you make me a cheese plate? And
I'm like, you know, fuck yourself, you know,
like take a dessert, eat your cheese at home.
If I don't have it on the menu, you know, don't
ask me to make it. I mean, cheese is amazing.
I love eating cheese for dessert. Yeah, me too.
Like, for example, how do you like cheeses and
desserts? In desserts, like actual desserts.
Ah, okay. You mean like for desserts? Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Like after the main courses, yeah. Okay,
yeah. But I do like cheeses in desserts too.
Yeah, but it's also, come on, here to have cheeses
as a starter in Spain. You will have like a,
I don't know, a plate of manchego or a sabal
or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And super nice. It's
like very, very appetizing, you know? It like
gets your taste buds going. And I think this
is something similar as petit fours. You don't
want to overcomplicate it. You don't want to
make like a plate with 24 different cheeses.
And what about this table? This old school table
with cheeses. I kind of like that. If it's done
well, I like it. And it's just kind of, I mean,
but let's not kid ourselves. It's part of a certain
restaurant environment concept and flair also.
You know, if you're in this very old school French
restaurant, they bring out a cheese cart. That's
cool, you know? Did you read The Devil in the
Kitchen with Marco Pierre White? I don't think
so, no. Okay, because I think it's The Devil
in the Kitchen. There was this waiter that is
going out to the service with his cheese cart.
And there were two cheeses that you had just
the last little pieces. Yeah. And Marco was like,
hey, you can't do that. Yeah. Apparently he had
already said that. And he is an absolute bully.
his method to made it clear that he should not
do that he would took the pieces of cheeses and
throw it to the wall and it started like melting
down ah leave it there leave it there i want
everybody to see but it did so for the whole
service there was a cheese melting down the wall
and i can guarantee you he wasn't the one who
had to clean it up yeah Yeah, but I do like cheese.
I like cheese as like an in -between course between
main courses and desserts. I know this is not
something revolutionary, but there I, for example,
I would prefer to have one type of cheese that
is maybe served with like one or two things that
complement the cheese that I can kind of like,
you know, for example, say you have a, it's Bacherin
season in the winter and you have like a nice
piece of tempered Bacherin and then you have
like, you know, like a pickle. There's something
sweet condiment and like a bread that goes nicely
with it. I'd much prefer that than to have like
five types of cheese. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Have
you ever had cheese omelet? Oh yeah, of course.
Like a, like a French omelet with cheese. Yeah.
But there is a, I used to do one in a tapas bar
I worked in Berlin, which was basically, you
know, like a little cast iron pan on tortilla
pan. Yeah. You whisk the eggs, pour them there.
And then manchego, like, you know, like all around,
right? A little bit of oregano and to the oven.
And the whole thing, soufflés. I have not seen
that before. And you take it out when it's already,
so the egg is cooked and the cheese is already
like bubbly. And that's it. And does it become
crispy, the cheese, like a little bit? It can
become a little bit crispy. Oh man, I love that.
That sounds super good. I've never seen it before.
You know what that reminds me of? The adios de
queso in Mexico. okay have you have you seen
those so this is a thing that you get in a lot
of like taquerias and stuff xander you've you've
seen them right that he was the queso no okay
so this is really cool and you have to google
it if you don't know it basically on a plancha
you add a lot of like shredded cheese and you
make it into like a you know parmesan crisps
yes of course yeah so you make like a big parmesan
crisp and when it's hot they like scrape it into
like a big cone So it's like a big round sort
of like almost like these Indian dosa pancakes,
you know. And they give it to you like standing
up and it's like crispy, cheesy. And you just
like break pieces of it off and eat it with like
salsa and guacamole and stuff like that. Amazing.
That's so tasty. That's ridiculously good. And
in Lorea, we did like a small version of that
because it's such a quintessential Mexican thing
that we spent a really long time working on these
like small artillos. And getting your cheese
crispy wasn't the problem, but what's difficult
is to shape it into the shape that you wanted
while it's still hot for then when it cools down
to get crispy, right? So we were making this
like little, almost like cigar tubes out of melted
cheese that we would then fill with something
that you can have as like a amuse -bouche. Okay,
nice. And yeah, what about that? Cheeses as part
of dishes? I use that a lot actually. One of
my secret hacks for certain sauces is to add
a little bit of parmesan. Okay. Cream sauces.
Like for example, say you have a mushroom cream
sauce, you want to add a little bit more funk
and umami, grate some parmesan into it. You know
where I like to put some parmesan as a hidden
ingredient? Vinegared dressings. Oh, yeah, that's
really good also. Yeah, that works really, really
well. Parmesan is basically like MSG. It's like
basically like pure umami. It's a little bit
salty and super like umami rich. It gives you
this like round sort of tongue feeling. And if
you use it like gently, for example, in something
like a cream sauce, you know, it just gives it
that like oomph that you maybe don't have. This
like salty, grainy umami taste. Well, there is
this controversy around seafood and cheeses.
Yeah, which comes from Italy, right? Originally,
I think. I don't know, but I mean, if you ask
like a proper, even let's say in Germany, like
a proper chef, fresh out of school, he will tell
you, you can't do that. Is that right? Yeah.
I thought it was a... I have that feeling, yeah.
I thought it was a very Italian thing. I've seen
that myself, you know, like you can't do that.
There is a rule that you, that's not... Makes
me kind of want to do it. Makes me particularly
want to do it. For me, it's very interesting.
That's a thing in Chile. There's a traditional
dish in Chile that is gratinated scallops with
cheese. Oh yeah, but that's so classic. That's
so nice. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's what
I'm kind of thinking. That makes no sense at
all. Yeah, and for example, Sebastian Pinchero
here at Kai Sushi Bar, he has one of his iconic...
He has both zamaki and anigiri that are scallop.
And he makes a mixture of like a super nice salad
cheese and butter and puts it on top and he burns
it. Yeah. So you have like same thing, raffinated.
scallops absolutely yeah you know like and it's
also like a way of showcasing his chilian background
and identity ah i see true sushi you know i didn't
get that connection i just thought it was tasty
like yeah yeah i don't know anything about chilean
food um but yeah i mean i mainly hear that from
italians that like in a puttanesca where there's
anchovies or you know anything that with seafood
or like vongole you never never grate cheese
on top of that that's like a no no go really
for a puttanesca as well yes okay I always add
parmesan to my puttanesca. I mean, it's like,
I feel like with these statements, especially
from Italians, they're like, that's impossible.
You can never do that. You'll never see anybody
do that. It's kind of like, well, actually, there's
a lot of people doing it and also Italians, you
know. So they have these very strong opinions
that they feel like are rules for the like quantum
physical rules that actually aren't really quantum.
Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, it's just
try for yourself and have your own opinion, you
know. At the end of the day, if I want to put
parmesan on my pasta, I will, you know. like
because it's just tasty you know fish with cheese
actually you know that brings me to one thing
one of the best by far best things that i've
eaten when i was in london was at a restaurant
called shepherds and friends of katie were working
there they made a haddock gratin haddock smoked
haddock right so a white fish lightly smoked
this is what they're what you do is a very traditional
dish you take the smoked fish and you poach it
very lightly in milk right just so it starts
to cook it starts to warm up and it starts to
flake right then you take the fish you use the
this like tasty smoky fish milk to make a bechamel
to make a cheese sauce right kind of like a rabbit
with a little bit of worcestershire sauce and
and cheese like cheddar and you make this into
like a like a nice sort of like thick bechamel
thing kind of like the pimiento sauce that we
had and then you make this like mix of haddock
and you pour the sauce on top of your gratinated
And if you do it right, if you do it nice, and
the fish is poached super tender, the sauce is
mega, mega flavorful, and it gratinates on top.
It was insane. I ate this dish and I was dying.
It was incredibly delicious. Well, I mentioned
in the episode where I talk about my trip to
Japan, one of the best bites I had was an eel
burger with blue cheese. What? Where was that?
That was in Oshiage 010 in Osaka. You should
go to that place. It was really, really nice.
Oshiage 010. You have to tell me that. What kind
of place is it? It's a kushikatsu place. Oh,
okay, cool. You know, kushikatsu is like these
skewers where you have at the end like this pan,
this breaded thing that is fried. When I say
thing, it's because it could be anything. Yeah,
as long as it's on a skewer, basically. Yeah,
and then you have like it's like a really nice
way to to see the fine art of frying in japan
where you know you cut these things to the middle
and it's just pink at the very center and it's
fried you know it's just getting the perfect
timing for frying nice super nice yeah i also
i really love uh like the gradual increase of
cheese thank you in asian cooking i mean we were
talking earlier i am a huge fan like talking
about japan i'm a huge fan of chain restaurants
in japan and you know chain restaurant is Words
always sound like something negative, but they
have perfected simple dishes done well with good
ingredients. Super fresh, super hot, really comforting,
and there's nothing trashy about it. Super famously,
there's Yoshinoya, which is a chain specializing
in gyudon. For people who don't know, gyudon
is a very homely dish. It's basically a rice
bowl and thin slices of beef with onions that
are stewed very quickly and then poured over
the rice. Sounds very simple. If you've had it
before, it's super delicious. And these guys
at Yoshinoya, they do something called cheese
gyuron. So you have this like braised beef on
top of rice with onions and then you put cheese
on top and gratinate that. It's super filthy.
It's so good. It shouldn't work, but it really,
really does. Well, I have to say when I was in
Japan, for me and probably for you as well, well,
you live in Japan, it's different, but... I had
this idea that I could eat Japanese food every
day and sushi every day for the rest of my life
and I would be happy. But I have to say after
25 days there was something lacking. And it was
cheese. Yeah. Was it? Yeah. Yeah. I had like
this. For me it was bread. I was missing cheese
like crazy. All I wanted was like a nasty pizza
with five different cheeses. It's all I wanted
for birthday, you know, at the moment. I totally
get it. I mean, like, I remember. I don't know
how long it took, but I was craving Western food
so much. Like, I mean, I had amazing food in
Japan, but at some point you just want something
different, right? Yeah, but it was like a need,
you know? Yeah, yeah. And so we went to Pierre
Garnier in Tokyo and we had a lunch there because
the lunch was like a really good deal. and Dimitri
kind of saw us and he was like hey bring these
guys bring these guys some extra like bread and
butter and stuff i think they need it and he
was like completely right and we were crushing
the sourdough with butter just like butter to
bread ratio one to one you know and then like
cheese this is like so nice i mean it's a it's
such a simple pleasure but like cheese and bread
and butter or olive oil. What about fondue? Have
you done fondue? Oh, yeah. Yeah, fondue. I've
never done, like, properly traditional fondue.
I've eaten it a lot. There was, like, a fondue
restaurant near my house in Venezuela where I
grew up. Oh, nice. So I would go there with my
family. Like, I don't even know, like, what the
proper blend of cheese is. I think this is, again,
it depends on the grandmother. Yeah. I know Comte
is, like, one of the key players, but I'm not
sure. Yeah. these these um these mountain cheeses
i mean they're literally called back kaiser yeah
and there's like different differences in between
the different back keys but they have this like
comte like flavor they're always like cave aged
um that's a very distinctive flavor also i think
that this The culture of Alp cheeses is very
under -known around the world. Oh, 100%. You
talk about France, Spain, Italy, but you never
talk about Austria when you talk about cheeses.
That's true, yeah. I mean, the people in the
know, for people in the know, Bergkäse and Gruyere
especially is like a go -to, you know, secret,
secret ingredient. Yeah, I totally agree. It's
like mountain cheeses aren't talked enough. A
key ingredient in fondue is also a little bit
of Kirsch. Not Kirsch. Kirsch is like a distilled
cherry schnapps, but it's not sweet, right? There's
Kirsch liqueur and there's Kirsch, which is completely
dry. And that is something that you need to add
into it, or a little bit of grappa. Okay. Yeah,
also. And then you have old bread, you dip it
into the cheese, and it's very good. And there's
a tradition, kind of like an unspoken tradition,
that you don't, it's super bad manners to lose
your piece of bread in the fondue. There's an
Asterix and Obelix comic where people are eating
fondue, and one person loses the piece of bread,
and everybody's screaming to get the whip, for
them to get whipped. Get the whip! You lost this
bread! But talking about underappreciated cheeses,
I think by far the most underrated cheese culture
is British cheese. Oh, yeah, of course. Is that
a thing? It's a thing. I can only think of Stilton.
Stilton is one of them, yeah. That's a big one.
Stilton is actually a denomination for cheese.
And there's some cheesemakers that are making
Stilton -like cheese. But they want to break
out of the kind of like what we talked about
with Jade, with the wine. They wanted to break
out of this like very strict rules how to make
the blue cheese. And so there's a very, very
good cheese that's like Stilton. It's called
Stitchilton. Because he did not want to call
it Stilton. He called it Stitchilton. Okay. Cheddar
is also British, right? Absolutely. But like
the types of cheddar are vast. Vast. And the
quality of cheddar. Because I feel like most
people know cheddar as like this shitty, funky
supermarket cheese, right? That you put on sandwiches.
Cheddar is amazing. If you have like a real wheel
of cheddar. a real wheel of cheddar it's absolutely
gorgeous like parmesan when i first came to london
i was after a while invited to a cheese tasting
i went there because a friend of mine couldn't
go and i started eating these british cheeses
and my mind was blown and i'm not kidding you
and i was like why the does nobody know about
this for me it's on the same level as france
without a doubt you know what you guys should
do today because i'm leaving today but you're
still staying in santos and you should go to
elcano not the restaurant yeah the cheese store
the cheese store yeah they're very good i've
had actually later at one time brought us to
a women mugaras to a tasting of elcano and they
had one cheese there which they called the torta
the one that's gooey inside that's one of my
favorite cheeses i will think about that it's
crazy you read my mind because i will think i
will say a few words about tortas yeah please
go ahead yeah like well you torta basically means
cake so you have this drum shaped cheese where
you cut the lid so today you open it and you
scoop it out with a spoon you can do canals of
it i worked in a place where we had like a uh
a cheese plate and you have to make like a canal
of this thing and put it on the on the plate
again like a super rich fatty strong cheese amazing
super super nice i really still remember it's
the only cheese i remember from the cheese tasting
in elcano absolutely fantastic yeah but also
like going back to british cheeses like because
you have you have mainland britain and then you
have scotland you have wales and it's all different
right and there's like spectacular cheeses stuff
like stinking bishop right which is a big sort
of I don't want to offend anyone, but like a
brie -like sort of cheese. Flat, squishy, milky
fatty with a light funk. You wouldn't believe.
It's absolutely unbelievable. They have this
breed of cows called Jersey cows that make Jersey
milk. This is a thing in the UK, which is a very
high quality, very fatty milk. So, for example,
you can see like a plain milk ice cream in restaurants
in London of Jersey milk. And it's insane because
the dairy quality is insane. And there's a tradition
of small cheesemongers, small, like individual
cheesemongers around the country that are kind
of like legends, you know? Or there's this guy
called blah, blah, blah in the Scottish wilderness
that makes this particular type of goat's cheese.
And you'll try it and you're like, what the fuck?
Ah, yeah. I guess in any cheese producing region,
you'll have that. You know, like some producer
that has his family recipe that... They're the
only one doing that it's not even part of a denomination,
but it's like a very very special thing Right.
For example, if you go to the French Basque country
again, like completely different movie like you
won't find because they also have like their
a french tradition of cheeses but also the basque
is mixed so for the untrained eye it could look
as the same but no these are completely different
cheeses with completely different denominations
yeah yeah that's amazing i mean because that's
a mix of cultures that's super particular what
about cheese in desserts like actually using
them in desserts well we've talked a lot about
basque cheesecake but i was just thinking about
I saw like a development, I think it was of John
Eicher, who is a lecturer chef at Basque Culinary
Center. And they did like this spin -off of the
Basque cheesecake where they added penicillium
camemberti, you know, like the mold that you
use to create this velvety layer that you have
on, let's say, a brie cheese or a camembert cheese.
So they would do that on the cheesecake. So you
would have that layer around the cheesecake so
it looked like a camembert and you would cut
it and have your slice of cheesecake. I think
that was pretty cool. That's very cool. And very
innovative as well. That's really cool, yeah.
Have you played around with that? With camemberti
and these penicilliums? Nope. That's pretty cool
because you can take like any milk or whatever
and you will get like that. Camembert flavor.
So for sauce making, you can do a lot of stuff
with that and adding that, you know, like that
flavor profile. So you can just add it to a sauce
or what? No, no, no. You have to let it grow
in the milk. Yeah. But then you will have this.
camembert flavored milk so to say oh that's interesting
so you could basically make a camembert ice cream
just by inoculating the milk and making ice cream
i remember in in bolivia we even did tests with
with vegetable milks let's say i remember like
a cashew milk inoculated with this fungus and
then you would have like this strange cashew
camembert kind of thing wow That's amazing. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, I love that sort of stuff. We were
talking about it the other day. And also, like,
you know, when we were in Rioja, we had another
type of cheesecake with goat's cheese. Oh, yeah.
That's amazing. Completely different to the Basque
cheesecake. Yeah. And that was, like, so in between
salty and sweet with a real funk. You could really
taste the hay. Like, you know, there's, like,
farmyard -y taste that some cheeses have and
some ciders and whatever. And it was just really
good. Really, really good. And one of the first
restaurants I worked in Venezuela, it was called
Malabar, it already closed, and it was with Carlos
Garcia, who was one of the best chefs in Venezuela.
And they also had like a... whole pastry kitchen
with a chef pâtissier who was a French guy called
Pascal Chérance. He was for sure the best pastry
chef in Venezuela at the moment. And he would
do like his cheesecake was with a specific very
light goat cheese from a specific producer in
Venezuela. It was this French style of goat cheese,
very similar to what we had yesterday. But yeah,
I've loved adding goat cheese to desserts like
since I was in culinary school. Yeah, yeah, it's
super nice because it makes total sense also.
It's just like how many elaborations in the pastry
world you add a pinch of salt to, you know, like
a mousse au chocolat, for example. And it takes
it from being okay to being really nice. And
it's kind of like that, you know, you add a little
bit of funk and umami and a little bit of salt
to something that's sweet. It gives it so much
more depth. Yeah, like I think if you're doing
like a Basque cheesecake, you should always add
like a little bit of a strong cheese, just a
little bit, you know, well, you can. and make
a blue cheese cheesecake but you can add just
a little bit of parmesan for example absolutely
a little bit of any strong cheese to you know
to add like that layer of of deepness to the
flavor profile absolutely it works with other
stuff as well it doesn't just have to be best
cheesecake i mean like traditional german cheesecake
my friend norbert makes a cheesecake german style
which is also baked but it's like much more fluffy
it's not so creamy And he adds aged gouda into
it. And it's an actual cheesecake, you know,
and it's super nice. He cooks it in a water bath.
It's like super kind of like very gently set,
very fluffy, almost like a Japanese cheesecake,
but without the starch. That's also a thing,
like into bath cheesecake, like cheddar cheese.
Yeah, I've seen that a lot. Yeah, super nice.
I wonder how far you can take it. I wonder if
you take a really nicely made vanilla ice cream,
you grate some parmesan into it, what the effect
would be. Ah, that would work for sure. Right?
For sure it will. Yeah, I can completely see
it. And this is like some Italian... Grating
it on top, I think that's perverse, but integrating
it into the mixture. There's somebody in Italy
right now with a tear rolling down their face,
being like, something terrible has just happened.
What about raclette? Are you a raclette person?
Yeah, I love raclette. Raclette for my family
is a Christmas tradition. So a lot of people
from where I'm from, they'll have like a little
raclette table where you have little pans and
you have basically like salamander. And it's
very interactive. You have loads of condiments.
Usually boiled potatoes are always a part. You
have boiled potatoes. You have like little ham,
pickled onions, pickled like cornichons. vegetables
etc and you like build your your stuff in your
pan with the cheese on top and you'll put it
on this little salamander it'll melt and you
pour it over the potatoes yeah i mean traditionally
obviously it's the half loaf that then gets like
put next to a grill and scraped off i've also
had that in the black forest it's very very nice
for me it's kind of like it's super fun but it's
the kind of meal you uh you need to have a nap
afterwards yeah for sure um Yeah, for me, one
of the best pinches in the city is Bordaberry's
Risotto, which is basically mac and cheese. With
the orzo noodles, right? Yeah, like this rice
-shaped pasta. I love that. They do a blend of
three different Ijazabal cheeses and some cream,
and you have this mac and cheese. And it's incredible,
man. That's like a really nice way to have a
first taste of Ijazabal cheese. like to understand
what it is about like that deadness that saltiness
it has like yeah yeah that's um that's a classic
at portobello i remember eating that like 12
years ago there already this is a mainstay another
really cool thing from british cuisine is the
double baked cheese souffle have you ever heard
about this no it's a very traditional dish that
you find in like a lot of sort of like old high
-class hotels and it's kind of having a comeback
it's basically what it sounds like you make like
a like a savory souffle mix with like grated
very like salty funky cheese in it and it's double
baked because usually you bake it the first time
so it's souffles right like a souffle you demold
it you basically turn it around like we used
to do with the these horrible souffles of margot
And then you would pour a cheese sauce on top
of it with like chives and stuff and then gratinate
it. So it's like a gratinated cheese souffle.
So outside gratinated, inside fluffy egg white
like cheese mix. I think life is better with
anything gratinated. You know, like whatever
you have, you can put some cheese on top and
gratinate it. It will just be better, you know.
I agree. That's it for this week's episode of
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