WEBVTT 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:10.599 You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Hi, 00:00:10.619 --> 00:00:13.019 everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. We're 00:00:13.019 --> 00:00:15.580 recording live in San Sebastian. And we're going 00:00:15.580 --> 00:00:21.280 to talk about cheeses. Mmm. Cheeses Christ. Cheeses. 00:00:21.359 --> 00:00:24.140 Cheeses Christ. Cheese. The wonderful world of 00:00:24.140 --> 00:00:26.449 cheese. You got a favorite cheese? It's a hard 00:00:26.449 --> 00:00:28.750 question. I don't think I have a favorite cheese. 00:00:28.910 --> 00:00:31.670 Yeah, hard question. The world of cheese is so 00:00:31.670 --> 00:00:36.070 huge. Yeah, and it's also so versatile the way 00:00:36.070 --> 00:00:40.090 that you can use cheese in culinary applications. 00:00:40.570 --> 00:00:44.869 You know, like you can just serve it plain as 00:00:44.869 --> 00:00:47.689 a cheese plate. Do you ever serve cheese plates? 00:00:48.929 --> 00:00:51.929 Yes. i feel a little bit mixed about i have mixed 00:00:51.929 --> 00:00:55.750 feelings about cheese plates uh why yeah i don't 00:00:55.750 --> 00:01:00.950 know it's uh i'm a fan of serving eight cheese 00:01:00.950 --> 00:01:03.950 with maybe like one or two condiments that kind 00:01:03.950 --> 00:01:06.150 of complement the cheese and i like to keep it 00:01:06.150 --> 00:01:08.269 sort of seasonal you know that you like change 00:01:08.269 --> 00:01:12.079 the cheese A cheese plate for me is like something 00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:14.739 that I love a cheese plate and I love like going 00:01:14.739 --> 00:01:17.099 to like a bistro like in the afternoon or something. 00:01:17.219 --> 00:01:19.560 It's not really like a thing, a selection of 00:01:19.560 --> 00:01:21.180 cheese. If you're in a cheese country like here 00:01:21.180 --> 00:01:22.599 in the Basque country, for example, you know, 00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:25.959 it's different. But I don't know, like now that 00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:27.579 I'm thinking about it, I have really mixed feelings 00:01:27.579 --> 00:01:30.000 about it because something about it is kind of 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:32.040 like you have to think about whether it fits 00:01:32.040 --> 00:01:33.640 into your restaurant or not. And it's a lot of 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:35.739 times, you know what it is, a lot of times it's 00:01:35.739 --> 00:01:37.299 something that I don't have on a menu and people 00:01:37.299 --> 00:01:39.200 are like, can you make me a cheese plate? And 00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:41.439 I'm like, you know, fuck yourself, you know, 00:01:41.540 --> 00:01:45.060 like take a dessert, eat your cheese at home. 00:01:45.140 --> 00:01:46.719 If I don't have it on the menu, you know, don't 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:48.640 ask me to make it. I mean, cheese is amazing. 00:01:48.739 --> 00:01:50.819 I love eating cheese for dessert. Yeah, me too. 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:54.719 Like, for example, how do you like cheeses and 00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:57.790 desserts? In desserts, like actual desserts. 00:01:57.969 --> 00:02:00.670 Ah, okay. You mean like for desserts? Yeah, yeah, 00:02:00.750 --> 00:02:02.329 yeah. Like after the main courses, yeah. Okay, 00:02:02.329 --> 00:02:03.930 yeah. But I do like cheeses in desserts too. 00:02:04.129 --> 00:02:06.769 Yeah, but it's also, come on, here to have cheeses 00:02:06.769 --> 00:02:09.729 as a starter in Spain. You will have like a, 00:02:09.729 --> 00:02:12.610 I don't know, a plate of manchego or a sabal 00:02:12.610 --> 00:02:14.789 or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And super nice. It's 00:02:14.789 --> 00:02:16.449 like very, very appetizing, you know? It like 00:02:16.449 --> 00:02:20.099 gets your taste buds going. And I think this 00:02:20.099 --> 00:02:22.780 is something similar as petit fours. You don't 00:02:22.780 --> 00:02:24.479 want to overcomplicate it. You don't want to 00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:27.180 make like a plate with 24 different cheeses. 00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:30.379 And what about this table? This old school table 00:02:30.379 --> 00:02:34.460 with cheeses. I kind of like that. If it's done 00:02:34.460 --> 00:02:36.719 well, I like it. And it's just kind of, I mean, 00:02:36.740 --> 00:02:38.740 but let's not kid ourselves. It's part of a certain 00:02:38.740 --> 00:02:41.800 restaurant environment concept and flair also. 00:02:41.900 --> 00:02:44.159 You know, if you're in this very old school French 00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:46.780 restaurant, they bring out a cheese cart. That's 00:02:46.780 --> 00:02:49.439 cool, you know? Did you read The Devil in the 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:51.300 Kitchen with Marco Pierre White? I don't think 00:02:51.300 --> 00:02:53.639 so, no. Okay, because I think it's The Devil 00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:55.699 in the Kitchen. There was this waiter that is 00:02:55.699 --> 00:02:58.939 going out to the service with his cheese cart. 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:01.580 And there were two cheeses that you had just 00:03:01.580 --> 00:03:04.439 the last little pieces. Yeah. And Marco was like, 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:07.300 hey, you can't do that. Yeah. Apparently he had 00:03:07.300 --> 00:03:10.500 already said that. And he is an absolute bully. 00:03:11.180 --> 00:03:14.400 his method to made it clear that he should not 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:16.919 do that he would took the pieces of cheeses and 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:20.280 throw it to the wall and it started like melting 00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:22.740 down ah leave it there leave it there i want 00:03:22.740 --> 00:03:27.379 everybody to see but it did so for the whole 00:03:27.379 --> 00:03:29.780 service there was a cheese melting down the wall 00:03:29.780 --> 00:03:31.939 and i can guarantee you he wasn't the one who 00:03:31.939 --> 00:03:38.229 had to clean it up yeah Yeah, but I do like cheese. 00:03:38.370 --> 00:03:40.469 I like cheese as like an in -between course between 00:03:40.469 --> 00:03:42.229 main courses and desserts. I know this is not 00:03:42.229 --> 00:03:44.909 something revolutionary, but there I, for example, 00:03:44.909 --> 00:03:48.050 I would prefer to have one type of cheese that 00:03:48.050 --> 00:03:51.069 is maybe served with like one or two things that 00:03:51.069 --> 00:03:52.710 complement the cheese that I can kind of like, 00:03:52.849 --> 00:03:55.270 you know, for example, say you have a, it's Bacherin 00:03:55.270 --> 00:03:57.449 season in the winter and you have like a nice 00:03:57.449 --> 00:03:59.629 piece of tempered Bacherin and then you have 00:03:59.629 --> 00:04:02.819 like, you know, like a pickle. There's something 00:04:02.819 --> 00:04:05.039 sweet condiment and like a bread that goes nicely 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:07.319 with it. I'd much prefer that than to have like 00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:10.800 five types of cheese. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Have 00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:13.300 you ever had cheese omelet? Oh yeah, of course. 00:04:13.659 --> 00:04:16.199 Like a, like a French omelet with cheese. Yeah. 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:19.680 But there is a, I used to do one in a tapas bar 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:22.379 I worked in Berlin, which was basically, you 00:04:22.379 --> 00:04:24.360 know, like a little cast iron pan on tortilla 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:27.720 pan. Yeah. You whisk the eggs, pour them there. 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:31.540 And then manchego, like, you know, like all around, 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:35.199 right? A little bit of oregano and to the oven. 00:04:35.980 --> 00:04:39.100 And the whole thing, soufflés. I have not seen 00:04:39.100 --> 00:04:41.199 that before. And you take it out when it's already, 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:45.980 so the egg is cooked and the cheese is already 00:04:45.980 --> 00:04:48.939 like bubbly. And that's it. And does it become 00:04:48.939 --> 00:04:50.560 crispy, the cheese, like a little bit? It can 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:52.420 become a little bit crispy. Oh man, I love that. 00:04:52.540 --> 00:04:54.360 That sounds super good. I've never seen it before. 00:04:54.420 --> 00:04:56.300 You know what that reminds me of? The adios de 00:04:56.300 --> 00:04:59.310 queso in Mexico. okay have you have you seen 00:04:59.310 --> 00:05:01.449 those so this is a thing that you get in a lot 00:05:01.449 --> 00:05:03.970 of like taquerias and stuff xander you've you've 00:05:03.970 --> 00:05:06.490 seen them right that he was the queso no okay 00:05:06.490 --> 00:05:08.949 so this is really cool and you have to google 00:05:08.949 --> 00:05:11.389 it if you don't know it basically on a plancha 00:05:11.389 --> 00:05:14.370 you add a lot of like shredded cheese and you 00:05:14.370 --> 00:05:16.250 make it into like a you know parmesan crisps 00:05:16.250 --> 00:05:18.850 yes of course yeah so you make like a big parmesan 00:05:18.850 --> 00:05:21.949 crisp and when it's hot they like scrape it into 00:05:21.949 --> 00:05:25.250 like a big cone So it's like a big round sort 00:05:25.250 --> 00:05:28.230 of like almost like these Indian dosa pancakes, 00:05:28.449 --> 00:05:30.550 you know. And they give it to you like standing 00:05:30.550 --> 00:05:33.430 up and it's like crispy, cheesy. And you just 00:05:33.430 --> 00:05:35.350 like break pieces of it off and eat it with like 00:05:35.350 --> 00:05:37.350 salsa and guacamole and stuff like that. Amazing. 00:05:37.550 --> 00:05:40.529 That's so tasty. That's ridiculously good. And 00:05:40.529 --> 00:05:42.910 in Lorea, we did like a small version of that 00:05:42.910 --> 00:05:44.850 because it's such a quintessential Mexican thing 00:05:44.850 --> 00:05:47.569 that we spent a really long time working on these 00:05:47.569 --> 00:05:49.829 like small artillos. And getting your cheese 00:05:49.829 --> 00:05:52.170 crispy wasn't the problem, but what's difficult 00:05:52.170 --> 00:05:54.470 is to shape it into the shape that you wanted 00:05:54.470 --> 00:05:56.790 while it's still hot for then when it cools down 00:05:56.790 --> 00:05:58.629 to get crispy, right? So we were making this 00:05:58.629 --> 00:06:01.430 like little, almost like cigar tubes out of melted 00:06:01.430 --> 00:06:03.209 cheese that we would then fill with something 00:06:03.209 --> 00:06:05.670 that you can have as like a amuse -bouche. Okay, 00:06:05.750 --> 00:06:10.079 nice. And yeah, what about that? Cheeses as part 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:15.339 of dishes? I use that a lot actually. One of 00:06:15.339 --> 00:06:18.439 my secret hacks for certain sauces is to add 00:06:18.439 --> 00:06:20.579 a little bit of parmesan. Okay. Cream sauces. 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:22.839 Like for example, say you have a mushroom cream 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:24.300 sauce, you want to add a little bit more funk 00:06:24.300 --> 00:06:26.660 and umami, grate some parmesan into it. You know 00:06:26.660 --> 00:06:28.839 where I like to put some parmesan as a hidden 00:06:28.839 --> 00:06:31.860 ingredient? Vinegared dressings. Oh, yeah, that's 00:06:31.860 --> 00:06:33.720 really good also. Yeah, that works really, really 00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:36.579 well. Parmesan is basically like MSG. It's like 00:06:36.579 --> 00:06:38.639 basically like pure umami. It's a little bit 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:42.360 salty and super like umami rich. It gives you 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:45.660 this like round sort of tongue feeling. And if 00:06:45.660 --> 00:06:48.120 you use it like gently, for example, in something 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:51.480 like a cream sauce, you know, it just gives it 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:54.060 that like oomph that you maybe don't have. This 00:06:54.060 --> 00:06:57.959 like salty, grainy umami taste. Well, there is 00:06:57.959 --> 00:07:02.259 this controversy around seafood and cheeses. 00:07:02.459 --> 00:07:04.759 Yeah, which comes from Italy, right? Originally, 00:07:04.939 --> 00:07:07.620 I think. I don't know, but I mean, if you ask 00:07:07.620 --> 00:07:10.740 like a proper, even let's say in Germany, like 00:07:10.740 --> 00:07:14.300 a proper chef, fresh out of school, he will tell 00:07:14.300 --> 00:07:16.319 you, you can't do that. Is that right? Yeah. 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:18.220 I thought it was a... I have that feeling, yeah. 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:20.240 I thought it was a very Italian thing. I've seen 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:23.439 that myself, you know, like you can't do that. 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:25.660 There is a rule that you, that's not... Makes 00:07:25.660 --> 00:07:28.100 me kind of want to do it. Makes me particularly 00:07:28.100 --> 00:07:30.399 want to do it. For me, it's very interesting. 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:33.759 That's a thing in Chile. There's a traditional 00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:37.459 dish in Chile that is gratinated scallops with 00:07:37.459 --> 00:07:39.319 cheese. Oh yeah, but that's so classic. That's 00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:41.980 so nice. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's what 00:07:41.980 --> 00:07:44.079 I'm kind of thinking. That makes no sense at 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:47.300 all. Yeah, and for example, Sebastian Pinchero 00:07:47.300 --> 00:07:51.019 here at Kai Sushi Bar, he has one of his iconic... 00:07:51.019 --> 00:07:54.660 He has both zamaki and anigiri that are scallop. 00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:57.860 And he makes a mixture of like a super nice salad 00:07:57.860 --> 00:08:00.560 cheese and butter and puts it on top and he burns 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:03.779 it. Yeah. So you have like same thing, raffinated. 00:08:04.609 --> 00:08:07.170 scallops absolutely yeah you know like and it's 00:08:07.170 --> 00:08:11.110 also like a way of showcasing his chilian background 00:08:11.110 --> 00:08:14.730 and identity ah i see true sushi you know i didn't 00:08:14.730 --> 00:08:16.410 get that connection i just thought it was tasty 00:08:16.410 --> 00:08:19.050 like yeah yeah i don't know anything about chilean 00:08:19.050 --> 00:08:21.410 food um but yeah i mean i mainly hear that from 00:08:21.410 --> 00:08:23.290 italians that like in a puttanesca where there's 00:08:23.290 --> 00:08:25.310 anchovies or you know anything that with seafood 00:08:25.310 --> 00:08:27.629 or like vongole you never never grate cheese 00:08:27.629 --> 00:08:30.990 on top of that that's like a no no go really 00:08:30.990 --> 00:08:34.139 for a puttanesca as well yes okay I always add 00:08:34.139 --> 00:08:36.539 parmesan to my puttanesca. I mean, it's like, 00:08:36.620 --> 00:08:38.379 I feel like with these statements, especially 00:08:38.379 --> 00:08:40.580 from Italians, they're like, that's impossible. 00:08:40.820 --> 00:08:42.220 You can never do that. You'll never see anybody 00:08:42.220 --> 00:08:43.779 do that. It's kind of like, well, actually, there's 00:08:43.779 --> 00:08:45.759 a lot of people doing it and also Italians, you 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:47.799 know. So they have these very strong opinions 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:50.980 that they feel like are rules for the like quantum 00:08:50.980 --> 00:08:53.720 physical rules that actually aren't really quantum. 00:08:53.860 --> 00:08:55.740 Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, it's just 00:08:55.740 --> 00:08:58.539 try for yourself and have your own opinion, you 00:08:58.539 --> 00:08:59.980 know. At the end of the day, if I want to put 00:08:59.980 --> 00:09:02.279 parmesan on my pasta, I will, you know. like 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:05.379 because it's just tasty you know fish with cheese 00:09:05.379 --> 00:09:07.200 actually you know that brings me to one thing 00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:10.440 one of the best by far best things that i've 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:12.659 eaten when i was in london was at a restaurant 00:09:12.659 --> 00:09:18.299 called shepherds and friends of katie were working 00:09:18.299 --> 00:09:21.519 there they made a haddock gratin haddock smoked 00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:23.940 haddock right so a white fish lightly smoked 00:09:23.940 --> 00:09:26.440 this is what they're what you do is a very traditional 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:29.620 dish you take the smoked fish and you poach it 00:09:29.620 --> 00:09:33.000 very lightly in milk right just so it starts 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:35.159 to cook it starts to warm up and it starts to 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:38.159 flake right then you take the fish you use the 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:40.840 this like tasty smoky fish milk to make a bechamel 00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:43.940 to make a cheese sauce right kind of like a rabbit 00:09:43.940 --> 00:09:46.899 with a little bit of worcestershire sauce and 00:09:46.899 --> 00:09:49.639 and cheese like cheddar and you make this into 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:52.120 like a like a nice sort of like thick bechamel 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:53.799 thing kind of like the pimiento sauce that we 00:09:53.799 --> 00:09:56.200 had and then you make this like mix of haddock 00:09:56.200 --> 00:09:58.220 and you pour the sauce on top of your gratinated 00:09:58.970 --> 00:10:01.429 And if you do it right, if you do it nice, and 00:10:01.429 --> 00:10:03.909 the fish is poached super tender, the sauce is 00:10:03.909 --> 00:10:06.750 mega, mega flavorful, and it gratinates on top. 00:10:06.850 --> 00:10:09.110 It was insane. I ate this dish and I was dying. 00:10:09.870 --> 00:10:14.269 It was incredibly delicious. Well, I mentioned 00:10:14.269 --> 00:10:16.909 in the episode where I talk about my trip to 00:10:16.909 --> 00:10:20.690 Japan, one of the best bites I had was an eel 00:10:20.690 --> 00:10:24.529 burger with blue cheese. What? Where was that? 00:10:25.049 --> 00:10:29.230 That was in Oshiage 010 in Osaka. You should 00:10:29.230 --> 00:10:31.529 go to that place. It was really, really nice. 00:10:31.789 --> 00:10:34.629 Oshiage 010. You have to tell me that. What kind 00:10:34.629 --> 00:10:38.350 of place is it? It's a kushikatsu place. Oh, 00:10:38.529 --> 00:10:41.269 okay, cool. You know, kushikatsu is like these 00:10:41.269 --> 00:10:44.870 skewers where you have at the end like this pan, 00:10:45.230 --> 00:10:48.470 this breaded thing that is fried. When I say 00:10:48.470 --> 00:10:50.330 thing, it's because it could be anything. Yeah, 00:10:50.370 --> 00:10:52.370 as long as it's on a skewer, basically. Yeah, 00:10:52.370 --> 00:10:56.169 and then you have like it's like a really nice 00:10:56.169 --> 00:10:58.970 way to to see the fine art of frying in japan 00:10:58.970 --> 00:11:02.090 where you know you cut these things to the middle 00:11:02.090 --> 00:11:04.889 and it's just pink at the very center and it's 00:11:04.889 --> 00:11:06.750 fried you know it's just getting the perfect 00:11:06.750 --> 00:11:10.669 timing for frying nice super nice yeah i also 00:11:10.669 --> 00:11:13.769 i really love uh like the gradual increase of 00:11:13.769 --> 00:11:16.889 cheese thank you in asian cooking i mean we were 00:11:16.889 --> 00:11:19.190 talking earlier i am a huge fan like talking 00:11:19.190 --> 00:11:21.649 about japan i'm a huge fan of chain restaurants 00:11:21.649 --> 00:11:25.159 in japan and you know chain restaurant is Words 00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:27.220 always sound like something negative, but they 00:11:27.220 --> 00:11:31.340 have perfected simple dishes done well with good 00:11:31.340 --> 00:11:34.159 ingredients. Super fresh, super hot, really comforting, 00:11:34.299 --> 00:11:37.639 and there's nothing trashy about it. Super famously, 00:11:37.700 --> 00:11:40.620 there's Yoshinoya, which is a chain specializing 00:11:40.620 --> 00:11:42.679 in gyudon. For people who don't know, gyudon 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:44.559 is a very homely dish. It's basically a rice 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:48.220 bowl and thin slices of beef with onions that 00:11:48.220 --> 00:11:50.299 are stewed very quickly and then poured over 00:11:50.299 --> 00:11:53.330 the rice. Sounds very simple. If you've had it 00:11:53.330 --> 00:11:55.809 before, it's super delicious. And these guys 00:11:55.809 --> 00:11:57.789 at Yoshinoya, they do something called cheese 00:11:57.789 --> 00:12:00.789 gyuron. So you have this like braised beef on 00:12:00.789 --> 00:12:02.490 top of rice with onions and then you put cheese 00:12:02.490 --> 00:12:04.710 on top and gratinate that. It's super filthy. 00:12:04.870 --> 00:12:08.129 It's so good. It shouldn't work, but it really, 00:12:08.169 --> 00:12:12.190 really does. Well, I have to say when I was in 00:12:12.190 --> 00:12:16.070 Japan, for me and probably for you as well, well, 00:12:16.070 --> 00:12:18.179 you live in Japan, it's different, but... I had 00:12:18.179 --> 00:12:20.519 this idea that I could eat Japanese food every 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:23.039 day and sushi every day for the rest of my life 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:25.539 and I would be happy. But I have to say after 00:12:25.539 --> 00:12:29.100 25 days there was something lacking. And it was 00:12:29.100 --> 00:12:31.820 cheese. Yeah. Was it? Yeah. Yeah. I had like 00:12:31.820 --> 00:12:35.620 this. For me it was bread. I was missing cheese 00:12:35.620 --> 00:12:38.600 like crazy. All I wanted was like a nasty pizza 00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:40.899 with five different cheeses. It's all I wanted 00:12:40.899 --> 00:12:43.120 for birthday, you know, at the moment. I totally 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:45.659 get it. I mean, like, I remember. I don't know 00:12:45.659 --> 00:12:48.240 how long it took, but I was craving Western food 00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:50.799 so much. Like, I mean, I had amazing food in 00:12:50.799 --> 00:12:52.580 Japan, but at some point you just want something 00:12:52.580 --> 00:12:54.879 different, right? Yeah, but it was like a need, 00:12:55.059 --> 00:12:58.100 you know? Yeah, yeah. And so we went to Pierre 00:12:58.100 --> 00:13:01.100 Garnier in Tokyo and we had a lunch there because 00:13:01.100 --> 00:13:04.330 the lunch was like a really good deal. and Dimitri 00:13:04.330 --> 00:13:07.929 kind of saw us and he was like hey bring these 00:13:07.929 --> 00:13:10.090 guys bring these guys some extra like bread and 00:13:10.090 --> 00:13:12.730 butter and stuff i think they need it and he 00:13:12.730 --> 00:13:15.090 was like completely right and we were crushing 00:13:15.090 --> 00:13:18.529 the sourdough with butter just like butter to 00:13:18.529 --> 00:13:21.009 bread ratio one to one you know and then like 00:13:21.009 --> 00:13:23.669 cheese this is like so nice i mean it's a it's 00:13:23.669 --> 00:13:25.809 such a simple pleasure but like cheese and bread 00:13:26.490 --> 00:13:29.129 and butter or olive oil. What about fondue? Have 00:13:29.129 --> 00:13:31.389 you done fondue? Oh, yeah. Yeah, fondue. I've 00:13:31.389 --> 00:13:34.029 never done, like, properly traditional fondue. 00:13:34.149 --> 00:13:36.090 I've eaten it a lot. There was, like, a fondue 00:13:36.090 --> 00:13:37.870 restaurant near my house in Venezuela where I 00:13:37.870 --> 00:13:40.090 grew up. Oh, nice. So I would go there with my 00:13:40.090 --> 00:13:43.750 family. Like, I don't even know, like, what the 00:13:43.750 --> 00:13:47.750 proper blend of cheese is. I think this is, again, 00:13:47.909 --> 00:13:50.830 it depends on the grandmother. Yeah. I know Comte 00:13:50.830 --> 00:13:54.350 is, like, one of the key players, but I'm not 00:13:54.350 --> 00:13:57.730 sure. Yeah. these these um these mountain cheeses 00:13:57.730 --> 00:13:59.789 i mean they're literally called back kaiser yeah 00:13:59.789 --> 00:14:02.549 and there's like different differences in between 00:14:02.549 --> 00:14:04.210 the different back keys but they have this like 00:14:04.210 --> 00:14:07.190 comte like flavor they're always like cave aged 00:14:07.190 --> 00:14:10.330 um that's a very distinctive flavor also i think 00:14:10.330 --> 00:14:14.120 that this The culture of Alp cheeses is very 00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:17.740 under -known around the world. Oh, 100%. You 00:14:17.740 --> 00:14:21.019 talk about France, Spain, Italy, but you never 00:14:21.019 --> 00:14:23.539 talk about Austria when you talk about cheeses. 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:25.399 That's true, yeah. I mean, the people in the 00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:28.460 know, for people in the know, Bergkäse and Gruyere 00:14:28.460 --> 00:14:32.620 especially is like a go -to, you know, secret, 00:14:32.820 --> 00:14:35.340 secret ingredient. Yeah, I totally agree. It's 00:14:35.340 --> 00:14:37.120 like mountain cheeses aren't talked enough. A 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:39.399 key ingredient in fondue is also a little bit 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:43.190 of Kirsch. Not Kirsch. Kirsch is like a distilled 00:14:43.190 --> 00:14:48.009 cherry schnapps, but it's not sweet, right? There's 00:14:48.009 --> 00:14:50.470 Kirsch liqueur and there's Kirsch, which is completely 00:14:50.470 --> 00:14:52.889 dry. And that is something that you need to add 00:14:52.889 --> 00:14:54.980 into it, or a little bit of grappa. Okay. Yeah, 00:14:55.019 --> 00:14:57.419 also. And then you have old bread, you dip it 00:14:57.419 --> 00:14:59.019 into the cheese, and it's very good. And there's 00:14:59.019 --> 00:15:00.960 a tradition, kind of like an unspoken tradition, 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:03.860 that you don't, it's super bad manners to lose 00:15:03.860 --> 00:15:06.519 your piece of bread in the fondue. There's an 00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:10.399 Asterix and Obelix comic where people are eating 00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:13.620 fondue, and one person loses the piece of bread, 00:15:13.700 --> 00:15:16.120 and everybody's screaming to get the whip, for 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:19.039 them to get whipped. Get the whip! You lost this 00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:23.320 bread! But talking about underappreciated cheeses, 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:27.039 I think by far the most underrated cheese culture 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:29.820 is British cheese. Oh, yeah, of course. Is that 00:15:29.820 --> 00:15:33.740 a thing? It's a thing. I can only think of Stilton. 00:15:34.100 --> 00:15:36.779 Stilton is one of them, yeah. That's a big one. 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:39.860 Stilton is actually a denomination for cheese. 00:15:40.019 --> 00:15:42.220 And there's some cheesemakers that are making 00:15:42.220 --> 00:15:44.460 Stilton -like cheese. But they want to break 00:15:44.460 --> 00:15:45.960 out of the kind of like what we talked about 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:47.860 with Jade, with the wine. They wanted to break 00:15:47.860 --> 00:15:50.340 out of this like very strict rules how to make 00:15:50.340 --> 00:15:52.840 the blue cheese. And so there's a very, very 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:54.860 good cheese that's like Stilton. It's called 00:15:54.860 --> 00:15:57.279 Stitchilton. Because he did not want to call 00:15:57.279 --> 00:16:00.080 it Stilton. He called it Stitchilton. Okay. Cheddar 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:02.740 is also British, right? Absolutely. But like 00:16:02.740 --> 00:16:05.759 the types of cheddar are vast. Vast. And the 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:07.559 quality of cheddar. Because I feel like most 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:10.480 people know cheddar as like this shitty, funky 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:13.100 supermarket cheese, right? That you put on sandwiches. 00:16:13.299 --> 00:16:16.279 Cheddar is amazing. If you have like a real wheel 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:19.409 of cheddar. a real wheel of cheddar it's absolutely 00:16:19.409 --> 00:16:22.070 gorgeous like parmesan when i first came to london 00:16:22.070 --> 00:16:24.590 i was after a while invited to a cheese tasting 00:16:24.590 --> 00:16:26.929 i went there because a friend of mine couldn't 00:16:26.929 --> 00:16:29.330 go and i started eating these british cheeses 00:16:29.330 --> 00:16:31.470 and my mind was blown and i'm not kidding you 00:16:31.470 --> 00:16:33.870 and i was like why the does nobody know about 00:16:33.870 --> 00:16:37.190 this for me it's on the same level as france 00:16:37.190 --> 00:16:39.730 without a doubt you know what you guys should 00:16:39.730 --> 00:16:41.750 do today because i'm leaving today but you're 00:16:41.750 --> 00:16:43.570 still staying in santos and you should go to 00:16:43.570 --> 00:16:46.129 elcano not the restaurant yeah the cheese store 00:16:46.129 --> 00:16:47.950 the cheese store yeah they're very good i've 00:16:47.950 --> 00:16:49.909 had actually later at one time brought us to 00:16:49.909 --> 00:16:53.570 a women mugaras to a tasting of elcano and they 00:16:53.570 --> 00:16:56.690 had one cheese there which they called the torta 00:16:58.830 --> 00:17:00.590 the one that's gooey inside that's one of my 00:17:00.590 --> 00:17:02.690 favorite cheeses i will think about that it's 00:17:02.690 --> 00:17:04.269 crazy you read my mind because i will think i 00:17:04.269 --> 00:17:06.730 will say a few words about tortas yeah please 00:17:06.730 --> 00:17:10.509 go ahead yeah like well you torta basically means 00:17:10.509 --> 00:17:14.210 cake so you have this drum shaped cheese where 00:17:14.210 --> 00:17:17.589 you cut the lid so today you open it and you 00:17:17.589 --> 00:17:20.230 scoop it out with a spoon you can do canals of 00:17:20.230 --> 00:17:22.420 it i worked in a place where we had like a uh 00:17:22.420 --> 00:17:24.880 a cheese plate and you have to make like a canal 00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:27.420 of this thing and put it on the on the plate 00:17:27.420 --> 00:17:31.700 again like a super rich fatty strong cheese amazing 00:17:31.700 --> 00:17:34.420 super super nice i really still remember it's 00:17:34.420 --> 00:17:36.039 the only cheese i remember from the cheese tasting 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:39.259 in elcano absolutely fantastic yeah but also 00:17:39.259 --> 00:17:41.039 like going back to british cheeses like because 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:43.579 you have you have mainland britain and then you 00:17:43.579 --> 00:17:45.819 have scotland you have wales and it's all different 00:17:45.819 --> 00:17:48.200 right and there's like spectacular cheeses stuff 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:51.440 like stinking bishop right which is a big sort 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:54.470 of I don't want to offend anyone, but like a 00:17:54.470 --> 00:17:59.750 brie -like sort of cheese. Flat, squishy, milky 00:17:59.750 --> 00:18:02.109 fatty with a light funk. You wouldn't believe. 00:18:02.289 --> 00:18:04.569 It's absolutely unbelievable. They have this 00:18:04.569 --> 00:18:08.250 breed of cows called Jersey cows that make Jersey 00:18:08.250 --> 00:18:10.849 milk. This is a thing in the UK, which is a very 00:18:10.849 --> 00:18:14.130 high quality, very fatty milk. So, for example, 00:18:14.130 --> 00:18:16.730 you can see like a plain milk ice cream in restaurants 00:18:16.730 --> 00:18:20.849 in London of Jersey milk. And it's insane because 00:18:20.849 --> 00:18:23.690 the dairy quality is insane. And there's a tradition 00:18:23.690 --> 00:18:26.789 of small cheesemongers, small, like individual 00:18:26.789 --> 00:18:29.369 cheesemongers around the country that are kind 00:18:29.369 --> 00:18:31.289 of like legends, you know? Or there's this guy 00:18:31.289 --> 00:18:34.589 called blah, blah, blah in the Scottish wilderness 00:18:34.589 --> 00:18:36.750 that makes this particular type of goat's cheese. 00:18:36.829 --> 00:18:38.190 And you'll try it and you're like, what the fuck? 00:18:38.430 --> 00:18:41.589 Ah, yeah. I guess in any cheese producing region, 00:18:41.670 --> 00:18:44.950 you'll have that. You know, like some producer 00:18:44.950 --> 00:18:49.650 that has his family recipe that... They're the 00:18:49.650 --> 00:18:52.069 only one doing that it's not even part of a denomination, 00:18:52.210 --> 00:18:54.450 but it's like a very very special thing Right. 00:18:54.589 --> 00:18:56.650 For example, if you go to the French Basque country 00:18:56.650 --> 00:18:59.609 again, like completely different movie like you 00:18:59.609 --> 00:19:02.809 won't find because they also have like their 00:19:03.500 --> 00:19:06.559 a french tradition of cheeses but also the basque 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:10.619 is mixed so for the untrained eye it could look 00:19:10.619 --> 00:19:12.799 as the same but no these are completely different 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:14.980 cheeses with completely different denominations 00:19:14.980 --> 00:19:17.119 yeah yeah that's amazing i mean because that's 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:20.059 a mix of cultures that's super particular what 00:19:20.059 --> 00:19:24.660 about cheese in desserts like actually using 00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:26.779 them in desserts well we've talked a lot about 00:19:26.779 --> 00:19:29.440 basque cheesecake but i was just thinking about 00:19:30.250 --> 00:19:33.369 I saw like a development, I think it was of John 00:19:33.369 --> 00:19:36.769 Eicher, who is a lecturer chef at Basque Culinary 00:19:36.769 --> 00:19:40.470 Center. And they did like this spin -off of the 00:19:40.470 --> 00:19:43.750 Basque cheesecake where they added penicillium 00:19:43.750 --> 00:19:47.549 camemberti, you know, like the mold that you 00:19:47.549 --> 00:19:51.250 use to create this velvety layer that you have 00:19:51.250 --> 00:19:55.170 on, let's say, a brie cheese or a camembert cheese. 00:19:55.509 --> 00:19:58.829 So they would do that on the cheesecake. So you 00:19:58.829 --> 00:20:00.970 would have that layer around the cheesecake so 00:20:00.970 --> 00:20:03.230 it looked like a camembert and you would cut 00:20:03.230 --> 00:20:05.630 it and have your slice of cheesecake. I think 00:20:05.630 --> 00:20:07.309 that was pretty cool. That's very cool. And very 00:20:07.309 --> 00:20:09.250 innovative as well. That's really cool, yeah. 00:20:10.470 --> 00:20:13.329 Have you played around with that? With camemberti 00:20:13.329 --> 00:20:15.769 and these penicilliums? Nope. That's pretty cool 00:20:15.769 --> 00:20:18.690 because you can take like any milk or whatever 00:20:18.690 --> 00:20:22.759 and you will get like that. Camembert flavor. 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.740 So for sauce making, you can do a lot of stuff 00:20:25.740 --> 00:20:28.880 with that and adding that, you know, like that 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:31.839 flavor profile. So you can just add it to a sauce 00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:35.220 or what? No, no, no. You have to let it grow 00:20:35.220 --> 00:20:37.720 in the milk. Yeah. But then you will have this. 00:20:38.620 --> 00:20:42.019 camembert flavored milk so to say oh that's interesting 00:20:42.019 --> 00:20:44.940 so you could basically make a camembert ice cream 00:20:44.940 --> 00:20:47.279 just by inoculating the milk and making ice cream 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:50.220 i remember in in bolivia we even did tests with 00:20:50.220 --> 00:20:55.079 with vegetable milks let's say i remember like 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:59.420 a cashew milk inoculated with this fungus and 00:20:59.420 --> 00:21:03.319 then you would have like this strange cashew 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:06.400 camembert kind of thing wow That's amazing. Yeah. 00:21:06.500 --> 00:21:08.400 Yeah. I mean, I love that sort of stuff. We were 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:10.339 talking about it the other day. And also, like, 00:21:10.339 --> 00:21:13.680 you know, when we were in Rioja, we had another 00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:16.920 type of cheesecake with goat's cheese. Oh, yeah. 00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:18.500 That's amazing. Completely different to the Basque 00:21:18.500 --> 00:21:20.660 cheesecake. Yeah. And that was, like, so in between 00:21:20.660 --> 00:21:23.539 salty and sweet with a real funk. You could really 00:21:23.539 --> 00:21:25.819 taste the hay. Like, you know, there's, like, 00:21:25.819 --> 00:21:28.460 farmyard -y taste that some cheeses have and 00:21:28.460 --> 00:21:31.640 some ciders and whatever. And it was just really 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:33.980 good. Really, really good. And one of the first 00:21:33.980 --> 00:21:36.259 restaurants I worked in Venezuela, it was called 00:21:36.259 --> 00:21:38.579 Malabar, it already closed, and it was with Carlos 00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:40.279 Garcia, who was one of the best chefs in Venezuela. 00:21:40.500 --> 00:21:43.269 And they also had like a... whole pastry kitchen 00:21:43.269 --> 00:21:47.789 with a chef pâtissier who was a French guy called 00:21:47.789 --> 00:21:50.210 Pascal Chérance. He was for sure the best pastry 00:21:50.210 --> 00:21:52.109 chef in Venezuela at the moment. And he would 00:21:52.109 --> 00:21:56.109 do like his cheesecake was with a specific very 00:21:56.109 --> 00:21:58.849 light goat cheese from a specific producer in 00:21:58.849 --> 00:22:01.289 Venezuela. It was this French style of goat cheese, 00:22:01.349 --> 00:22:03.650 very similar to what we had yesterday. But yeah, 00:22:03.809 --> 00:22:08.130 I've loved adding goat cheese to desserts like 00:22:08.130 --> 00:22:11.099 since I was in culinary school. Yeah, yeah, it's 00:22:11.099 --> 00:22:13.240 super nice because it makes total sense also. 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:16.900 It's just like how many elaborations in the pastry 00:22:16.900 --> 00:22:18.819 world you add a pinch of salt to, you know, like 00:22:18.819 --> 00:22:20.680 a mousse au chocolat, for example. And it takes 00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:23.400 it from being okay to being really nice. And 00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:24.920 it's kind of like that, you know, you add a little 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:26.680 bit of funk and umami and a little bit of salt 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:28.720 to something that's sweet. It gives it so much 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:31.440 more depth. Yeah, like I think if you're doing 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:34.140 like a Basque cheesecake, you should always add 00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:36.279 like a little bit of a strong cheese, just a 00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:38.970 little bit, you know, well, you can. and make 00:22:38.970 --> 00:22:41.210 a blue cheese cheesecake but you can add just 00:22:41.210 --> 00:22:43.210 a little bit of parmesan for example absolutely 00:22:43.210 --> 00:22:47.109 a little bit of any strong cheese to you know 00:22:47.109 --> 00:22:50.309 to add like that layer of of deepness to the 00:22:50.309 --> 00:22:52.789 flavor profile absolutely it works with other 00:22:52.789 --> 00:22:54.069 stuff as well it doesn't just have to be best 00:22:54.069 --> 00:22:56.049 cheesecake i mean like traditional german cheesecake 00:22:56.049 --> 00:22:58.950 my friend norbert makes a cheesecake german style 00:22:58.950 --> 00:23:01.190 which is also baked but it's like much more fluffy 00:23:01.190 --> 00:23:04.660 it's not so creamy And he adds aged gouda into 00:23:04.660 --> 00:23:07.440 it. And it's an actual cheesecake, you know, 00:23:07.460 --> 00:23:09.240 and it's super nice. He cooks it in a water bath. 00:23:09.380 --> 00:23:12.380 It's like super kind of like very gently set, 00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:14.359 very fluffy, almost like a Japanese cheesecake, 00:23:14.359 --> 00:23:17.200 but without the starch. That's also a thing, 00:23:17.299 --> 00:23:19.839 like into bath cheesecake, like cheddar cheese. 00:23:20.180 --> 00:23:23.079 Yeah, I've seen that a lot. Yeah, super nice. 00:23:23.180 --> 00:23:25.740 I wonder how far you can take it. I wonder if 00:23:25.740 --> 00:23:27.920 you take a really nicely made vanilla ice cream, 00:23:28.019 --> 00:23:30.339 you grate some parmesan into it, what the effect 00:23:30.339 --> 00:23:32.779 would be. Ah, that would work for sure. Right? 00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:35.339 For sure it will. Yeah, I can completely see 00:23:35.339 --> 00:23:38.039 it. And this is like some Italian... Grating 00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:40.240 it on top, I think that's perverse, but integrating 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:42.480 it into the mixture. There's somebody in Italy 00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:45.119 right now with a tear rolling down their face, 00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:47.640 being like, something terrible has just happened. 00:23:48.819 --> 00:23:51.819 What about raclette? Are you a raclette person? 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:54.299 Yeah, I love raclette. Raclette for my family 00:23:54.299 --> 00:23:57.839 is a Christmas tradition. So a lot of people 00:23:57.839 --> 00:23:59.940 from where I'm from, they'll have like a little 00:23:59.940 --> 00:24:03.539 raclette table where you have little pans and 00:24:03.539 --> 00:24:06.680 you have basically like salamander. And it's 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:09.740 very interactive. You have loads of condiments. 00:24:09.740 --> 00:24:12.039 Usually boiled potatoes are always a part. You 00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:15.079 have boiled potatoes. You have like little ham, 00:24:15.420 --> 00:24:19.430 pickled onions, pickled like cornichons. vegetables 00:24:19.430 --> 00:24:23.109 etc and you like build your your stuff in your 00:24:23.109 --> 00:24:24.809 pan with the cheese on top and you'll put it 00:24:24.809 --> 00:24:26.509 on this little salamander it'll melt and you 00:24:26.509 --> 00:24:29.130 pour it over the potatoes yeah i mean traditionally 00:24:29.130 --> 00:24:31.890 obviously it's the half loaf that then gets like 00:24:31.890 --> 00:24:33.710 put next to a grill and scraped off i've also 00:24:33.710 --> 00:24:36.089 had that in the black forest it's very very nice 00:24:36.089 --> 00:24:38.230 for me it's kind of like it's super fun but it's 00:24:38.230 --> 00:24:41.829 the kind of meal you uh you need to have a nap 00:24:41.829 --> 00:24:46.819 afterwards yeah for sure um Yeah, for me, one 00:24:46.819 --> 00:24:49.460 of the best pinches in the city is Bordaberry's 00:24:49.460 --> 00:24:54.099 Risotto, which is basically mac and cheese. With 00:24:54.099 --> 00:24:56.859 the orzo noodles, right? Yeah, like this rice 00:24:56.859 --> 00:24:59.940 -shaped pasta. I love that. They do a blend of 00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:04.039 three different Ijazabal cheeses and some cream, 00:25:04.059 --> 00:25:08.759 and you have this mac and cheese. And it's incredible, 00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:11.839 man. That's like a really nice way to have a 00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:15.420 first taste of Ijazabal cheese. like to understand 00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:19.660 what it is about like that deadness that saltiness 00:25:19.660 --> 00:25:23.500 it has like yeah yeah that's um that's a classic 00:25:23.500 --> 00:25:25.920 at portobello i remember eating that like 12 00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:29.259 years ago there already this is a mainstay another 00:25:29.259 --> 00:25:31.500 really cool thing from british cuisine is the 00:25:31.500 --> 00:25:33.579 double baked cheese souffle have you ever heard 00:25:33.579 --> 00:25:36.640 about this no it's a very traditional dish that 00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:39.140 you find in like a lot of sort of like old high 00:25:39.140 --> 00:25:41.619 -class hotels and it's kind of having a comeback 00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:44.440 it's basically what it sounds like you make like 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:46.640 a like a savory souffle mix with like grated 00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:49.859 very like salty funky cheese in it and it's double 00:25:49.859 --> 00:25:52.119 baked because usually you bake it the first time 00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:55.960 so it's souffles right like a souffle you demold 00:25:55.960 --> 00:25:58.039 it you basically turn it around like we used 00:25:58.039 --> 00:26:00.519 to do with the these horrible souffles of margot 00:26:01.390 --> 00:26:03.890 And then you would pour a cheese sauce on top 00:26:03.890 --> 00:26:05.869 of it with like chives and stuff and then gratinate 00:26:05.869 --> 00:26:08.029 it. So it's like a gratinated cheese souffle. 00:26:08.109 --> 00:26:11.690 So outside gratinated, inside fluffy egg white 00:26:11.690 --> 00:26:14.930 like cheese mix. I think life is better with 00:26:14.930 --> 00:26:17.890 anything gratinated. You know, like whatever 00:26:17.890 --> 00:26:19.809 you have, you can put some cheese on top and 00:26:19.809 --> 00:26:22.910 gratinate it. It will just be better, you know. 00:26:23.049 --> 00:26:30.240 I agree. That's it for this week's episode of 00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:32.700 Potluck Food Talks. If you like what we're doing, 00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:35.380 make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you 00:26:35.380 --> 00:26:37.839 never miss an episode. You can also find us on 00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:40.980 Instagram and TikTok as Potluck Food Talks. The 00:26:40.980 --> 00:26:42.119 show airs every Monday.