WEBVTT 00:00:04.119 --> 00:00:06.559 Hi, everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. 00:00:06.559 --> 00:00:09.140 Today, we're in the middle of somewhere in La 00:00:09.140 --> 00:00:13.560 Rioja with Jade Gross and Phil. And we're going 00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:17.500 to talk about Rioja wines, how a chef becomes 00:00:17.500 --> 00:00:20.559 a winemaker, and this sort of thing. Yeah, because 00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:23.320 you've got a crazy story, no? Like how you... 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:25.280 Because you weren't a chef originally, no? You 00:00:25.280 --> 00:00:28.359 were in translating, like, internationally? I 00:00:28.359 --> 00:00:34.530 was... I studied human rights law. Okay. And 00:00:34.530 --> 00:00:37.890 I realized that I couldn't save the world. That's 00:00:37.890 --> 00:00:39.530 what I wanted to do. I thought I had the solution. 00:00:39.850 --> 00:00:43.329 And I don't know, I was naive. I was 18. But 00:00:43.329 --> 00:00:46.429 I still finished my studies. And at the end of 00:00:46.429 --> 00:00:50.670 the day, I decided to save my own world, if you 00:00:50.670 --> 00:00:54.799 will. And yeah, I guess I have always... had 00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:56.939 a curious mind and i always wanted to try to 00:00:56.939 --> 00:00:59.140 do different things i just never knew it was 00:00:59.140 --> 00:01:01.140 going to be either being a chef or making wine 00:01:01.140 --> 00:01:04.439 like if you had told me this when i was 18 i 00:01:04.439 --> 00:01:06.239 wouldn't probably wouldn't have believed you 00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:08.879 but again if you have the passion for it and 00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:10.879 you have the drive does nothing else nothing 00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:14.060 really can stop you and how was this transition 00:01:14.060 --> 00:01:18.099 from international law to cooking Well, it wasn't 00:01:18.099 --> 00:01:23.819 easy. How did it start? What was the spark? Well, 00:01:23.879 --> 00:01:28.140 so I was doing a master's in London in human 00:01:28.140 --> 00:01:31.560 rights law and I was going to finish and obviously 00:01:31.560 --> 00:01:33.560 the next step would obviously work in a law firm 00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:36.780 and, you know, that whole story after that. But 00:01:36.780 --> 00:01:40.579 I was with a friend who was in law school for 00:01:40.579 --> 00:01:46.489 two weeks. And her dad is a lawyer. And she dropped 00:01:46.489 --> 00:01:50.870 out. And she started working in a nonprofit organization 00:01:50.870 --> 00:01:55.310 sort of startup called Escape the City. And Escape 00:01:55.310 --> 00:01:59.489 the City is basically a startup that basically 00:01:59.489 --> 00:02:04.390 helps people who have really more serious jobs 00:02:04.390 --> 00:02:08.710 leave those jobs and create their own project, 00:02:08.789 --> 00:02:11.509 whether it's... photography or you they want 00:02:11.509 --> 00:02:13.430 to be a ballet dancer or something like totally 00:02:13.430 --> 00:02:17.610 opposite of what they were they studied and uh 00:02:17.610 --> 00:02:19.729 so she was really in this like you should do 00:02:19.729 --> 00:02:22.129 what you want you should be free and be happy 00:02:22.129 --> 00:02:24.789 and so we're we're in this like period and I 00:02:24.789 --> 00:02:26.729 said well she's like what is what makes you happy 00:02:26.729 --> 00:02:28.210 I was like well I really don't know I mean I 00:02:28.210 --> 00:02:30.590 love to eat and I like to go to different restaurants 00:02:30.590 --> 00:02:34.939 that's always has been part of me and uh Yeah, 00:02:34.979 --> 00:02:36.759 she said, why don't you apply to a culinary school? 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:38.560 And I said, I don't think they'll take me because 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:40.280 I have absolutely no professional experience. 00:02:40.939 --> 00:02:44.400 And I guess I was a really good writer. And I 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:47.759 applied to one culinary school in Paris called 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:50.439 École Ferrandi. Ah yeah, of course. It's one 00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:52.909 of the... One of the big schools in France. One 00:02:52.909 --> 00:02:54.270 of the bigger schools, yeah. In the Chamber of 00:02:54.270 --> 00:02:56.629 Commerce, yeah. And when I got in, I was like, 00:02:56.650 --> 00:03:01.169 wow, I wrote a really good essay then. And I 00:03:01.169 --> 00:03:04.330 didn't want to ask my parents to pay for my studies 00:03:04.330 --> 00:03:06.550 because they had paid for everything else. And 00:03:06.550 --> 00:03:09.090 so I applied for a grant at James Beard Foundation. 00:03:09.409 --> 00:03:11.650 Yeah. And when I got the grant, I thought it's 00:03:11.650 --> 00:03:15.229 once in a lifetime. And so I finished my master's 00:03:15.229 --> 00:03:18.669 and I went to Paris. And the thing was, I obviously 00:03:18.669 --> 00:03:22.289 wasn't... the fastest chef and I probably didn't 00:03:22.289 --> 00:03:25.370 cut the mirepoix really well and I was always 00:03:25.370 --> 00:03:27.969 yeah I guess always a little bit behind because 00:03:27.969 --> 00:03:29.949 I was also a little bit older than anyone everybody 00:03:29.949 --> 00:03:33.569 else I was 23 and everyone else was basically 00:03:33.569 --> 00:03:37.889 16 17 you know and um when I finished the culinary 00:03:37.889 --> 00:03:41.050 studies uh part of the program is that you have 00:03:41.050 --> 00:03:44.729 to pick a place to do an internship and I knew 00:03:44.729 --> 00:03:48.520 that I I really loved the whole education system, 00:03:48.620 --> 00:03:51.500 but I really think that it's 20 % of the reality 00:03:51.500 --> 00:03:54.759 of a real kitchen. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And 00:03:54.759 --> 00:03:56.639 so I thought, okay, well, if I'm really going 00:03:56.639 --> 00:03:58.819 to do this, I'm going to pick, I only want to 00:03:58.819 --> 00:04:00.099 work in the best restaurants in the world, and 00:04:00.099 --> 00:04:01.419 I'm going to pick the hardest place I can find 00:04:01.419 --> 00:04:03.919 right now and see if I can last. Because if not, 00:04:04.020 --> 00:04:06.759 then I know it's not for me. So I picked Alain 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:09.659 Duquesne in Place Athénée. Okay. Which is a three 00:04:09.659 --> 00:04:10.879 -star super classical French. Yeah, which is 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:16.290 pretty damn hot. Yeah, exactly. And it was, yeah, 00:04:16.410 --> 00:04:19.449 it was difficult. It was difficult. I think I 00:04:19.449 --> 00:04:22.310 cried for like the first six months. And when 00:04:22.310 --> 00:04:24.529 I went home, I called my mother because there 00:04:24.529 --> 00:04:26.550 was a time difference between Hong Kong and Paris. 00:04:26.930 --> 00:04:29.589 And I said, I can't do it. I can't do it. And 00:04:29.589 --> 00:04:31.470 she's like, no, no, no, no. After everything, 00:04:31.610 --> 00:04:32.850 you're going to leave halfway. She's like, no, 00:04:32.850 --> 00:04:34.610 you start something, you finish it. And I'm really 00:04:34.610 --> 00:04:37.149 happy she told me this because I ended up finishing 00:04:37.149 --> 00:04:40.089 my internship. And I asked myself if all the 00:04:40.089 --> 00:04:43.970 kitchens were like that. So I went to Brazil 00:04:43.970 --> 00:04:47.730 and I was in Dome for about two months. But at 00:04:47.730 --> 00:04:50.649 least I knew how they worked over there. Then 00:04:50.649 --> 00:04:53.310 I wanted to go to El Bulli, but that was the 00:04:53.310 --> 00:04:56.889 year that they closed. So then my next... So 00:04:56.889 --> 00:05:01.029 this was around 2012, 2013? Yes, exactly. Then 00:05:01.029 --> 00:05:04.370 my next option was El Sello de Candroca, but 00:05:04.370 --> 00:05:07.910 they had no space. So I ended up in Mugaritz. 00:05:08.469 --> 00:05:11.410 And I was there the first year, and for me, I 00:05:11.410 --> 00:05:14.569 absolutely loved it. Again, I wasn't the best 00:05:14.569 --> 00:05:17.430 chef there, but I guess I was very quiet and 00:05:17.430 --> 00:05:21.329 I did my job. But also the way they treated people 00:05:21.329 --> 00:05:23.470 for me was very different from what I experienced 00:05:23.470 --> 00:05:27.290 previously. And then after one year, I did go 00:05:27.290 --> 00:05:29.589 to El Seyer. I was there for a few months, and 00:05:29.589 --> 00:05:31.569 obviously that's more family style, very different. 00:05:31.629 --> 00:05:33.310 You're with the brothers, you eat with the family, 00:05:33.350 --> 00:05:36.339 and I think, yeah, that's super cool. Yeah, and 00:05:36.339 --> 00:05:38.040 then I thought, okay, well, since I have such 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:40.439 a nomadic lifestyle that I was going to travel 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:43.019 the world and every couple, every six months 00:05:43.019 --> 00:05:45.420 or 12 months, I was going to move. There was 00:05:45.420 --> 00:05:47.600 an opportunity to go to Favikin, but then Dani 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:50.920 Lassa from Mugaritz called me and I went back 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:52.500 to Mugaritz and I was there for about seven years. 00:05:52.839 --> 00:05:55.800 Okay, amazing. You were there as a head chef 00:05:55.800 --> 00:05:58.660 the last time I went to eat, that was 2016? Yeah, 00:05:58.699 --> 00:06:02.639 so when I got into Mugaritz, I was 24. And when 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:05.500 I was 26, I was head chef. So in two years. But 00:06:05.500 --> 00:06:08.720 like I said, I probably had the least experience 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:11.879 out of everybody there of being a chef in general. 00:06:12.220 --> 00:06:15.420 But I guess, you know, I don't know. I guess 00:06:15.420 --> 00:06:17.740 if you really have the drive and the commitment 00:06:17.740 --> 00:06:19.759 and the passion and you take it as if it's your 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:22.560 own, knowing that it's not your own, it's not 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:24.439 your own restaurant, but you feel that it is 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:27.790 yours, then, yeah, I think, I don't know. I guess 00:06:27.790 --> 00:06:30.370 right place, right time. And then after being 00:06:30.370 --> 00:06:31.990 head chef, I thought I was going to leave, actually. 00:06:32.389 --> 00:06:37.250 And the R &D department, there was a, someone 00:06:37.250 --> 00:06:39.670 had left. And I thought that I would probably 00:06:39.670 --> 00:06:41.949 never be in an R &D anywhere else in the world 00:06:41.949 --> 00:06:44.089 in such a short amount of time. And so I thought 00:06:44.089 --> 00:06:45.769 it was another opportunity. So then I stayed 00:06:45.769 --> 00:06:48.019 for another three years. What can you share, 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:50.160 like, I don't know, like some anecdotes or highlights 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:52.579 about being in Mogadishu for seven years? What 00:06:52.579 --> 00:06:55.399 are your key takeaways? Yeah, I think it's very 00:06:55.399 --> 00:06:59.980 subjective because I know of experiences that 00:06:59.980 --> 00:07:03.519 are maybe not so positive. But for me in general, 00:07:03.620 --> 00:07:05.180 I mean, obviously being a chef, as you know, 00:07:05.220 --> 00:07:09.220 it's hardcore. And you really have to love what 00:07:09.220 --> 00:07:13.579 you do because if not, that drive is not there 00:07:13.579 --> 00:07:15.060 for you. Because it's not just the physical, 00:07:15.160 --> 00:07:17.529 it's obviously the... the emotional, it's the 00:07:17.529 --> 00:07:20.009 mental. And that's what really makes you either 00:07:20.009 --> 00:07:25.129 really tired or give up, right? For me, it was 00:07:25.129 --> 00:07:29.509 a place that... When I got into Mugrits, basically, 00:07:29.589 --> 00:07:31.449 let's say it like this, I was a person that had 00:07:31.449 --> 00:07:35.610 no confidence. And after seven years, I became 00:07:35.610 --> 00:07:38.610 a much more confident person. Not only in myself, 00:07:38.730 --> 00:07:43.490 also in trusting people and delegating. And basically, 00:07:43.509 --> 00:07:45.610 they gave me a chance to lead when I never thought 00:07:45.610 --> 00:07:47.399 I was... probably going to be a good leader anyways. 00:07:48.060 --> 00:07:50.079 And just little chances like that for me that 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:52.620 make me grew as a person. And I think that they, 00:07:52.740 --> 00:07:55.240 Andoni actually always says that, you know, if 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:58.300 you want the recipes, we'll give it to you. And 00:07:58.300 --> 00:07:59.839 probably the next day you'll leave. But we're 00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:01.860 here to teach you how to be a person and how 00:08:01.860 --> 00:08:04.339 to interact in society. And I think that's something 00:08:04.339 --> 00:08:06.620 that money can't even buy, you know. You can't 00:08:06.620 --> 00:08:09.139 even study that. It's an experience. But I know... 00:08:09.660 --> 00:08:12.600 It's very hardcore. And you basically sleep thinking 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:14.199 about Muguris. You wake up thinking about Muguris. 00:08:14.259 --> 00:08:16.000 It's basically your world and you're in this 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:18.279 bubble. It's like a sect somehow, right? It's 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:20.379 almost like a sect. And actually, when you leave 00:08:20.379 --> 00:08:23.259 the sect, it's a little bit weird. It's super 00:08:23.259 --> 00:08:25.500 weird. It's super weird. Absolutely. We've talked 00:08:25.500 --> 00:08:29.060 about this. I started in Muguris in 2005. And 00:08:29.060 --> 00:08:31.100 I mean, I wasn't for long, like for six months. 00:08:31.160 --> 00:08:34.250 But after I left, it was like... What do I do 00:08:34.250 --> 00:08:37.690 now? Why aren't things the same way organized 00:08:37.690 --> 00:08:40.429 as in Mugaritz? This is not the way it's supposed 00:08:40.429 --> 00:08:43.929 to be. Yeah, it's so rough. I mean, the entire 00:08:43.929 --> 00:08:45.590 time you're there, it's kind of like you're working 00:08:45.590 --> 00:08:47.870 your ass off and you're pushing. Also because 00:08:47.870 --> 00:08:49.830 you're surrounded by a lot of people that do 00:08:49.830 --> 00:08:51.929 the same. Obviously, you have the couple of stagiaires 00:08:51.929 --> 00:08:53.809 that come in and out and they fall off and whatever. 00:08:53.990 --> 00:08:57.039 But you have such a big... a group of people 00:08:57.039 --> 00:08:59.860 that are you know made up of individuals from 00:08:59.860 --> 00:09:01.399 all around the world that are really exceptional 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:05.320 and really inspiring and um it's like you say 00:09:05.320 --> 00:09:07.639 i've rarely had a restaurant where you feel this 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:10.000 this culture this sort of almost ritualistic 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:11.620 culture of sort of like this is how we do things 00:09:11.620 --> 00:09:13.179 this is how we approach things this is how we 00:09:13.179 --> 00:09:15.759 work this is our work ethic and when i left i 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:17.500 was really i was almost like on the verge of 00:09:17.500 --> 00:09:19.649 depression because i was like What the fuck am 00:09:19.649 --> 00:09:22.149 I going to do now? It was so hard, but at the 00:09:22.149 --> 00:09:23.429 same time, I was like, I don't want to leave. 00:09:23.669 --> 00:09:26.309 I don't want to leave this. I don't want to stop 00:09:26.309 --> 00:09:29.110 feeling like I do when I work here. Right. I 00:09:29.110 --> 00:09:30.830 think the hardest thing as well is when you have 00:09:30.830 --> 00:09:33.009 one foot in one world and you have one foot in 00:09:33.009 --> 00:09:34.850 the other world, is take that foot that's still 00:09:34.850 --> 00:09:36.990 in the old world and bring it forward. I think 00:09:36.990 --> 00:09:38.789 that's the hardest thing to do. Whether it's 00:09:38.789 --> 00:09:41.789 changing careers, which is what I did, or leaving 00:09:41.789 --> 00:09:44.110 one place that you're so used to and then going 00:09:44.110 --> 00:09:47.330 to a new place, you just need like a... time 00:09:47.330 --> 00:09:50.610 to i don't know like adaptation to adapt in a 00:09:50.610 --> 00:09:52.669 new in a new world that you're living in but 00:09:52.669 --> 00:09:54.710 yeah it's almost like a sect because you know 00:09:54.710 --> 00:09:57.090 you live with the same people that you work with 00:09:57.090 --> 00:10:00.649 you go out with them as well yes and travel with 00:10:00.649 --> 00:10:03.769 them yeah so you and on your spare time you were 00:10:03.769 --> 00:10:07.269 talking about work and things like cooking what 00:10:07.269 --> 00:10:10.509 has happened the leaf was not in the proper position 00:10:10.509 --> 00:10:12.970 of the plate you know like that's crazy yeah 00:10:12.970 --> 00:10:17.830 absolutely yeah So when was the first spark day 00:10:17.830 --> 00:10:19.629 where you kind of decided, you know, you had 00:10:19.629 --> 00:10:21.769 put like, because I mean, when I met you, you 00:10:21.769 --> 00:10:24.669 had so like such a drive, you know, and you could 00:10:24.669 --> 00:10:26.610 really feel that you were in the place like with 00:10:26.610 --> 00:10:30.710 your entire being, you know. When was the first 00:10:30.710 --> 00:10:34.190 time that you kind of thought, hey, maybe, you 00:10:34.190 --> 00:10:36.370 know, at some point you want to open a new chapter, 00:10:36.470 --> 00:10:38.570 you know, and kind of go into this whole winemaking? 00:10:38.990 --> 00:10:40.549 Yeah, that's actually a good question because 00:10:40.549 --> 00:10:44.370 nothing that I'm doing now was planned. Everything 00:10:44.370 --> 00:10:49.080 just, either fell into place, or again, right 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:52.779 place, right time, and also because someone believed 00:10:52.779 --> 00:10:58.419 in me. So I started, so in 2014, I had bought 00:10:58.419 --> 00:11:02.799 my first car, and I decided to travel around 00:11:02.799 --> 00:11:06.480 Spain with the car, and I had asked the sommelier 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:09.740 at Mugrit some recommendations for wineries nearby. 00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:12.799 So here in Roja, we're about one hour and a half 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:16.029 from San Sebastian, more or less. And he had 00:11:16.029 --> 00:11:18.309 sent me to these very big wineries, and obviously 00:11:18.309 --> 00:11:20.429 the experience was beautiful, but for me it was 00:11:20.429 --> 00:11:22.889 almost as if it was repetitive, the experience, 00:11:23.090 --> 00:11:26.149 going to a winery of that particular size. And 00:11:26.149 --> 00:11:28.710 so I had asked him to send me to a place that 00:11:28.710 --> 00:11:31.990 was much smaller, more personal. He had sent 00:11:31.990 --> 00:11:35.210 me to see a couple. The winery is called Abel 00:11:35.210 --> 00:11:38.549 Mendoza. That's the guy's name, and his wife 00:11:38.549 --> 00:11:42.610 Maite. And they live in this town, which is behind 00:11:42.610 --> 00:11:44.330 us, San Vicente La Sonchera, which is a town 00:11:44.330 --> 00:11:46.529 of a thousand people. And when I went there, 00:11:46.590 --> 00:11:49.690 I obviously was very shy, very respectful, and 00:11:49.690 --> 00:11:53.590 it was a very unknown world. And actually, I 00:11:53.590 --> 00:11:55.909 was not really familiar with Spanish wine until 00:11:55.909 --> 00:12:06.340 I got into Mugrits. Be careful, don't fall! And 00:12:06.340 --> 00:12:09.220 yeah, so we started, I bought some wine and then 00:12:09.220 --> 00:12:10.559 I came back a few months later, I bought more 00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:12.419 and then we started a friendship. And then I 00:12:12.419 --> 00:12:15.360 started helping out here and there in harvest, 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:19.279 at bottling and just being with them and just 00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:23.860 learning. And now they're in their mid 60s. And 00:12:23.860 --> 00:12:27.519 so I had met them in 2014. So it's been 11 years 00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:31.730 now. When I left Mugriz, which was December of 00:12:31.730 --> 00:12:34.809 2017, I didn't know I was going to make wine. 00:12:34.909 --> 00:12:36.509 Actually, I thought that I was going to open 00:12:36.509 --> 00:12:38.549 a restaurant because that was probably the most 00:12:38.549 --> 00:12:41.830 logical thing to do, I guess. And Andoni, when 00:12:41.830 --> 00:12:42.830 I told him I was going to leave, he was like, 00:12:42.889 --> 00:12:44.009 where are you going to go? Who are you going 00:12:44.009 --> 00:12:45.269 to work for? Where are you going to go? I was 00:12:45.269 --> 00:12:47.409 like, I have no idea. And I think he didn't really 00:12:47.409 --> 00:12:49.429 believe me, but I really had no idea. And I think 00:12:49.429 --> 00:12:50.570 it was the first time in my life where I had 00:12:50.570 --> 00:12:52.830 no idea what I was going to do. But I knew that 00:12:52.830 --> 00:12:55.669 I had to leave because I felt, you know, I've 00:12:55.669 --> 00:12:58.279 been there for seven years. I guess I left my 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:01.679 little grain of sand and I thought it was going 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:06.000 to be a new chapter for me. But I knew that I 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:08.519 didn't want to work for anyone else. That I knew. 00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:12.559 It had to be my own thing. And so I decided to 00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:14.960 see if I could open my own restaurant in Hong 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:18.000 Kong. But then, I don't know, it just felt too 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:26.649 forced. And one day I had asked Abel if... if 00:13:26.649 --> 00:13:28.789 he thought it was a good idea that, I don't know, 00:13:28.789 --> 00:13:31.549 make 800 bottles of wine and worst comes to worst, 00:13:31.649 --> 00:13:33.330 I drink it with my parents. I don't know, like 00:13:33.330 --> 00:13:35.490 it's a worst comes to worst kind of situation. 00:13:36.230 --> 00:13:38.909 And at first he said no. He didn't think it was 00:13:38.909 --> 00:13:42.519 a good idea because I'm not from here. I'm not 00:13:42.519 --> 00:13:44.379 from Rioja, and everyone in Rioja knows everybody. 00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:46.820 And you think that in the chef world, everyone 00:13:46.820 --> 00:13:49.259 knows everybody, but the world of wine is ridiculous. 00:13:49.659 --> 00:13:52.639 Everybody knows everybody, and everyone finds 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:55.519 out all the information as well. Yeah, the only 00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:57.620 person I know is John Marcos, and you know him. 00:13:57.620 --> 00:14:02.279 Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I'm not from here. I 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:07.320 have no experience. The world of maybe the winery, 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:09.899 it's more you can more or less control it. But 00:14:09.899 --> 00:14:12.100 in the vineyard, you're really faced with nature. 00:14:12.279 --> 00:14:17.059 And here we don't use any irrigation. Everything 00:14:17.059 --> 00:14:18.960 is just really what you get. So if it's lack 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:21.460 of rain, then there's drought, et cetera, et 00:14:21.460 --> 00:14:24.080 cetera. So things that you would need experience. 00:14:24.139 --> 00:14:27.299 You can't teach that in school, you know. And 00:14:27.299 --> 00:14:29.120 since I'm a little bit more stubborn than him 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:32.820 and very persistent, I said I wanted to try to 00:14:32.820 --> 00:14:36.759 make two barrels. But I had no idea that the 00:14:36.759 --> 00:14:40.639 project would be where it is now. I think the 00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:42.539 feedback has been super positive from everybody. 00:14:42.759 --> 00:14:44.879 It's not your most conventional story in the 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:48.360 world of wine. Usually it's generations or families 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:50.700 inheriting vineyards and wineries. And obviously 00:14:50.700 --> 00:14:53.000 I get really jealous because I wish I had all 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:54.320 the vineyards that they have and I wish that 00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:56.440 I had all the experience that they had. And so 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:58.840 in the first few years making wine, I mean, it 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:00.279 sounds weird to say it, but it was a lot of trial 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:02.620 and error. So it reminded me a little bit of 00:15:02.620 --> 00:15:06.519 cooking. But it's long term. Because cooking, 00:15:06.580 --> 00:15:08.639 you can make a dish now and maybe you can repeat 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:10.440 it and do it again tomorrow or the next day. 00:15:10.759 --> 00:15:12.860 But with the world of wine, every little thing 00:15:12.860 --> 00:15:15.320 that you do, you don't see the result in that 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:17.940 moment. You see it a year later. And there's 00:15:17.940 --> 00:15:19.960 nothing you can do to take it back if you realize 00:15:19.960 --> 00:15:21.399 that that was not the right decision you had 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:22.919 to make. So that's the risk that you have to 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:24.679 take. And for me, with having no experience, 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:27.860 it was a bit weird. Because at the end of the 00:15:27.860 --> 00:15:29.559 day, you are defending a product. Of course, 00:15:29.559 --> 00:15:33.080 yeah. And people will drink it. And then they 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:35.240 criticize it or they don't or they like it. It 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:40.759 really depends. But yeah, so I convinced Abel 00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:43.340 that I really wanted to do it. And thanks to 00:15:43.340 --> 00:15:45.080 him, I found the first grape grower that wanted 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:46.519 to sell me the grapes because that's just an 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:48.559 odyssey in itself. No one wanted to sell me any 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:51.039 grapes as well because I was not from here. I 00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:53.440 had to find another winery where I can make the 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:56.100 wine. So I was for about five years always renting 00:15:56.100 --> 00:15:59.019 a space in someone else's winery. And it's never 00:15:59.019 --> 00:16:01.710 really your own, you know. Until last year, I 00:16:01.710 --> 00:16:03.570 built my own because I thought, you know what, 00:16:03.570 --> 00:16:06.929 I'm just going to do it because I can do whatever 00:16:06.929 --> 00:16:09.149 I want. No one's going to ask me questions. But 00:16:09.149 --> 00:16:11.669 thanks to him and his wife, she's the enologist, 00:16:11.769 --> 00:16:14.830 and he's in basically everything, but he knows 00:16:14.830 --> 00:16:16.809 more about vineyards. They taught me everything 00:16:16.809 --> 00:16:19.750 I knew. And I think that if you have one person 00:16:19.750 --> 00:16:21.090 that believes in you in the world of wine, I 00:16:21.090 --> 00:16:24.230 think that's something that, again, something 00:16:24.230 --> 00:16:26.450 that you need to take into value. That's amazing. 00:16:27.610 --> 00:16:30.090 We were commenting earlier on the controlled 00:16:30.090 --> 00:16:33.929 denomination of origin of the Rioja. Do you have 00:16:33.929 --> 00:16:36.929 it from the early beginning? And what do you 00:16:36.929 --> 00:16:39.190 need to have it? What are the requirements and 00:16:39.190 --> 00:16:41.210 the constraints? Yeah, so it's a denomination 00:16:41.210 --> 00:16:45.149 that... It's an appellation, yet I guess I have 00:16:45.149 --> 00:16:47.629 these strict rules that you need to abide by, 00:16:47.870 --> 00:16:50.330 not only in the vineyard, but also in the winery. 00:16:51.610 --> 00:16:53.850 So when I started making wine, it was already 00:16:53.850 --> 00:16:57.669 in the Rioja denomination. Because since I was 00:16:57.669 --> 00:16:59.730 here and since my mentor also was part of it, 00:16:59.809 --> 00:17:02.049 he already told, he could sort of like guide 00:17:02.049 --> 00:17:04.109 me in of the things that I could and could not 00:17:04.109 --> 00:17:07.910 do. I like to follow rules, I guess. I respect 00:17:07.910 --> 00:17:09.950 rules. I respect tradition. And I think from 00:17:09.950 --> 00:17:11.789 there, then you can grow me more modern and leave 00:17:11.789 --> 00:17:13.769 if you want to. But I think you need to have 00:17:13.769 --> 00:17:16.630 a base. And it's also, you know, it's an appellation 00:17:16.630 --> 00:17:18.509 that wants to protect the quality of the wine 00:17:18.509 --> 00:17:20.990 that comes out from this region. It is pretty 00:17:20.990 --> 00:17:25.049 big, but there's only 400 wineries. So that basically 00:17:25.049 --> 00:17:28.660 means that, most wineries are large, right? Because 00:17:28.660 --> 00:17:31.259 let's say I'm one of the 400, but I don't make 00:17:31.259 --> 00:17:33.160 a lot of wine and there's millions and millions 00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:37.819 of bottles of Rioja. So I guess they try to control 00:17:37.819 --> 00:17:40.160 quality because now all the vineyards are Rioja. 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:42.099 So you need to have this thing that they call 00:17:42.099 --> 00:17:45.839 the papel. And once you have that, there's basically, 00:17:46.019 --> 00:17:48.240 they trace everything that you do. You obviously 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:49.599 have to write everything down. You just have 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:51.920 to send them every month any information that 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:54.740 you did or any movement of wine that you moved. 00:17:54.819 --> 00:17:56.059 Let's say you moved from one barrel to another 00:17:56.059 --> 00:17:57.740 one. All these things have to be really well 00:17:57.740 --> 00:17:59.420 written down and then pass this information. 00:18:00.579 --> 00:18:02.359 So yeah, so they're quite strict in terms of 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:04.720 they need to know where everything begins and 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:09.500 ends. And yeah, I mean, yeah, there's some things. 00:18:09.579 --> 00:18:12.119 I think I'm not big enough to do. a lot of like 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:15.240 weird and quirky things so but from what i have 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:17.099 now it's more or less in control yeah because 00:18:17.099 --> 00:18:19.720 i would expect that to be more natural as a chef 00:18:19.720 --> 00:18:22.299 becoming a winemaker to i don't know to break 00:18:22.299 --> 00:18:25.319 tradition and do stuff that is not so normal 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:27.380 i think i think the project in itself it's pretty 00:18:27.380 --> 00:18:30.240 breaking tradition already so i think that's 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:33.140 a lot and uh yeah because i mean i know there's 00:18:33.140 --> 00:18:35.079 some asian people making wine but they're mostly 00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:39.579 in france in spain i'm not sure so you know at 00:18:39.579 --> 00:18:42.400 least I think breaking ground in the beginning 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:45.140 took me a few years to, I guess, be accepted 00:18:45.140 --> 00:18:48.940 in the village. And that took a while. That took 00:18:48.940 --> 00:18:51.039 a while, yeah. Yeah, I can imagine a super, super 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:53.920 brave move. You know, it's like unknown territory. 00:18:54.299 --> 00:18:56.299 You know, it's kind of like you say, you don't 00:18:56.299 --> 00:18:58.920 know how, like what you do is going to affect 00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:02.059 it like in a year's time. Right. So it's kind 00:19:02.059 --> 00:19:04.039 of like venturing out into the unknown. Right. 00:19:04.140 --> 00:19:06.859 No, definitely. For people who don't know much 00:19:06.859 --> 00:19:09.019 about winemaking and the process, like myself 00:19:09.019 --> 00:19:11.160 included, how would you say that your approach 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:14.779 to winemaking differs from the regional styles? 00:19:17.069 --> 00:19:18.470 That's a good question. So I think for a long 00:19:18.470 --> 00:19:21.670 time, historically, Rioja... So Rioja is a region, 00:19:21.769 --> 00:19:23.990 right? A lot of people who have had the Rioja 00:19:23.990 --> 00:19:27.990 before, they think that Rioja is almost a style. 00:19:28.450 --> 00:19:30.789 Because for many, many years they've been doing... 00:19:31.099 --> 00:19:33.619 more or less the same kind of wine that's been 00:19:33.619 --> 00:19:37.019 aged for a very long time in barrel with a lot 00:19:37.019 --> 00:19:40.759 of oak usage and then a lot of bottling and a 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:43.200 lot of aging in the bottle and then coming into 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:45.400 the market so it's a wine that's you know very 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:48.140 aged and I think now the new generation is trying 00:19:48.140 --> 00:19:55.140 to break away from that. For me I put more importance 00:19:55.140 --> 00:19:59.460 on single plots. because usually you can blend 00:19:59.460 --> 00:20:01.519 different plots to make a better wine. But for 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:03.819 me, I wanted to see... Well, first, for me, it's 00:20:03.819 --> 00:20:06.380 a personal experience of learning, but I wanted 00:20:06.380 --> 00:20:08.240 to make the best wine I can for one particular 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:10.119 plot, and then for me, the next step would be 00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:12.559 the art of blending, which I think is also quite 00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:17.880 complex. So really... Small amount of wine. So 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:20.000 for example, for one particular vineyard, which 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:22.720 is the one right behind us, one year gives me 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:25.359 a thousand bottles. Maybe the next year would 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:27.980 be 700 because there was hail, there was drought, 00:20:28.119 --> 00:20:30.799 there was frost. For me, obviously, the easiest 00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:33.039 thing would be to blend with another plot and 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:35.240 make the thousand bottles again. But I'm very 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:37.920 loyal to whatever gives you that year. And you 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:39.339 can actually then taste the difference of the 00:20:39.339 --> 00:20:41.319 vintages. And if someone explains that it was 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:44.039 a year that was a lot of heat. or one year that 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:46.140 was quite rainy, you can see that in the wine 00:20:46.140 --> 00:20:48.259 if someone explains it to you. So I think for 00:20:48.259 --> 00:20:51.920 me, the story behind it is also just as important. 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:54.660 yeah so it's kind of like it sounds to me kind 00:20:54.660 --> 00:20:56.519 of like you're appreciating the natural like 00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:58.680 characteristics of it is kind of like as you're 00:20:58.680 --> 00:21:01.460 so like at mercy of uh of nature definitely that 00:21:01.460 --> 00:21:03.559 you kind of embrace the differences in it not 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:05.599 kind of standardizing it but like embracing the 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:07.940 differences between the years and the weather 00:21:07.940 --> 00:21:10.559 and the conditions no i mean obviously me as 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:12.839 a person i like to be in control of everything 00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:14.900 that i do and i think in the kitchen you can 00:21:14.900 --> 00:21:17.960 sort of more or less do that um but in winemaking 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:21.099 you cannot you can guide it but you can never 00:21:21.099 --> 00:21:24.829 control it yeah You just have to accept whatever 00:21:24.829 --> 00:21:29.150 comes out that year. I wouldn't say there's... 00:21:29.150 --> 00:21:31.269 Well, some people say there's good and bad vintages. 00:21:31.390 --> 00:21:34.289 I just really think for me is what's the best 00:21:34.289 --> 00:21:36.170 wine you can make from what you have? And I'm 00:21:36.170 --> 00:21:38.930 sure you can do it if you are really super strict 00:21:38.930 --> 00:21:44.769 and make decisions quickly. You said you went 00:21:44.769 --> 00:21:47.690 a lot to restaurants while growing up. Most of 00:21:47.690 --> 00:21:51.029 these restaurants were Chinese restaurants? Yeah, 00:21:51.029 --> 00:21:53.750 so I grew up obviously cooking or eating Chinese 00:21:53.750 --> 00:21:57.650 food mostly Shanghainese food, which is a It's 00:21:57.650 --> 00:22:00.329 a more saucy more heavy because it's northern 00:22:00.329 --> 00:22:02.769 a little bit more northern Chinese and so everything 00:22:02.769 --> 00:22:05.849 is a little bit more heavier So since my grandma 00:22:05.849 --> 00:22:09.430 always cooking I yeah, I can't tell you I can't 00:22:09.430 --> 00:22:11.430 tell you that I was a chef because I was with 00:22:11.430 --> 00:22:14.369 my grandmother Cooking in the in her kitchen. 00:22:14.470 --> 00:22:19.420 I just ate the food But you need to know how 00:22:19.420 --> 00:22:21.119 to eat to be a chef, I think. Absolutely, yeah. 00:22:21.539 --> 00:22:23.359 No, no, no. But for me, it makes completely sense 00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:25.920 to say that you would eat a lot from your grandmother's. 00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:27.779 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I was never in the kitchen. 00:22:27.859 --> 00:22:29.920 My mom never really allowed me to go in, so I 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:34.759 just ate. And, but yeah, so very, I guess, you 00:22:34.759 --> 00:22:36.599 know, Hong Kong is also a multicultural city. 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:40.259 You know, it was British for about 99 years. 00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:44.559 And so we were very exposed to Western. foods 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:47.119 obviously the french had a lot of presence uh 00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:50.380 german as well and then british obviously um 00:22:50.380 --> 00:22:52.640 but yeah since i was half since i'm half half 00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:55.579 mostly exposed to chinese culture would you say 00:22:55.579 --> 00:23:00.000 that chinese pala is reflected in your wine somehow 00:23:00.940 --> 00:23:03.859 The Chinese, well, actually, so some people ask 00:23:03.859 --> 00:23:05.440 me what kind of food goes well with my wine, 00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:08.599 and I always say Chinese food. But it's true, 00:23:08.660 --> 00:23:10.559 actually, because, you know, depending on what 00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:11.660 kind of Chinese food you have, you have very 00:23:11.660 --> 00:23:14.480 saucy, very heavy. If you have a really nice, 00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:17.440 acidic white wine, it really cuts that. Or if 00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:21.240 you have very spicy food, then you can have a 00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:23.880 young, un -oaked wine that's a little bit more 00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:27.519 sweeter. That sort of also balances that. So, 00:23:27.619 --> 00:23:30.480 yeah, I think for me, the wine, I guess also 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:32.720 being a chef, you also relate it to certain foods 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:34.440 and certain ingredients that maybe in the world 00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:36.180 of wine they don't know about, which is because 00:23:36.180 --> 00:23:37.900 we're super freaky like that. We like to know 00:23:37.900 --> 00:23:39.480 all the different ingredients, like tonk bean 00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:42.220 or, I don't know, random things like that. You 00:23:42.220 --> 00:23:44.559 can relate to that, and I think, yeah, I think 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:46.059 that's quite interesting to being a chef and 00:23:46.059 --> 00:23:48.680 making wine. Obviously, you know, maceration 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:51.559 and fermentation, these are concepts used in 00:23:51.559 --> 00:23:54.220 cooking, but we use that in winemaking, right? 00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:57.140 So it's very similar. They're very parallel. 00:23:57.180 --> 00:23:59.599 It's just one is more long -term. You know, I 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:01.140 was like saying to like in the car that it's 00:24:01.140 --> 00:24:03.240 just like such a fascinating journey. It's a 00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:06.980 crazy ride. It's been a crazy ride. And I don't 00:24:06.980 --> 00:24:09.519 know what's going to happen next. Well, you showed 00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:12.420 us a batch that was going to be sent to Puerto 00:24:12.420 --> 00:24:16.660 Rico. Where are your most crazy clients from? 00:24:17.259 --> 00:24:20.539 Well, so it's funny because there was this international 00:24:20.539 --> 00:24:23.700 interest from the start. And like I mentioned, 00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:26.640 the wine was never really present in Spain just 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:29.420 because... we have so much wine here. Of course. 00:24:29.460 --> 00:24:30.960 There's so much Rioja, there's so much Rivera, 00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:33.759 there's so much wines from Galicia. I mean, Jerez 00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:35.579 now is coming back. And it's so deeply ingrained 00:24:35.579 --> 00:24:38.279 into the culture. Like, whoever here understands 00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:41.819 wine when it's not good, you know, like, you 00:24:41.819 --> 00:24:44.079 can't fool anyone here with wine. No, definitely. 00:24:44.339 --> 00:24:48.539 So, you know, I guess, you know, when you, they 00:24:48.539 --> 00:24:51.480 always say, you know, making wine is difficult, 00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:54.779 but the hardest thing is selling your wine because 00:24:54.779 --> 00:24:57.829 the first year, all your friends are going to 00:24:57.829 --> 00:25:00.130 buy your wine just to help you out. One or two 00:25:00.130 --> 00:25:01.890 cases, something like that. Then the second year, 00:25:01.930 --> 00:25:04.390 less friends will buy your wine and you need 00:25:04.390 --> 00:25:07.349 to sort of branch out into distributing it. The 00:25:07.349 --> 00:25:09.569 third year, probably like a handful of friends. 00:25:09.710 --> 00:25:11.230 And then the fourth year, no one's going to buy 00:25:11.230 --> 00:25:13.109 your wine. None of your friends are going to 00:25:13.109 --> 00:25:15.410 buy your wine. And that is so true because you 00:25:15.410 --> 00:25:16.750 knew in the beginning, okay, they're going to 00:25:16.750 --> 00:25:18.490 help you out. But then, you know, it is a lot 00:25:18.490 --> 00:25:20.789 of wine and the project is growing. I started 00:25:20.789 --> 00:25:25.490 with 800 bottles in 2019 and now it's 12 ,000. 00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:32.839 So it grew exponentially. For me, the coolest 00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:35.420 place is that it's in Hong Kong because Hong 00:25:35.420 --> 00:25:38.099 Kong, they're very strict about what kind of 00:25:38.099 --> 00:25:40.579 wines they like to drink. Rioja now is making 00:25:40.579 --> 00:25:43.140 a big comeback in, not comeback, actually making 00:25:43.140 --> 00:25:47.599 a scene in Hong Kong and China just because they 00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:50.599 had so much French, Italian wine and even Australian 00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:52.759 wine because there's a lot of Australian people 00:25:52.759 --> 00:25:56.329 living in Hong Kong. And I think the differentiating 00:25:56.329 --> 00:25:58.049 point is that they have one of their own making 00:25:58.049 --> 00:26:00.490 wine. And I think that's the emotional factor. 00:26:01.190 --> 00:26:03.289 And that's the factor that they like to relate 00:26:03.289 --> 00:26:05.410 to. Oh yeah, there's a girl from Hong Kong making 00:26:05.410 --> 00:26:06.910 wine. That's super cool because there's not a 00:26:06.910 --> 00:26:10.349 lot of Hong Kong people making wine. Puerto Rico 00:26:10.349 --> 00:26:13.490 is a big market. New York. That's crazy, Puerto 00:26:13.490 --> 00:26:16.130 Rico. That's really random. But he's been there 00:26:16.130 --> 00:26:20.789 from the beginning. He bought a bunch of wines 00:26:20.789 --> 00:26:24.259 from 2019. And every year... Grows his order 00:26:24.259 --> 00:26:26.380 so that I think that's something that's positive. 00:26:26.539 --> 00:26:31.240 Yeah, New York is also a big order What else 00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:34.039 then it's in most most of Europe here and there 00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:38.059 Italy and France, which for me also is quite 00:26:38.059 --> 00:26:42.059 Surprising just because you know French French 00:26:42.059 --> 00:26:43.680 people like to do in French wine and Italian 00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:45.579 people like to eat Italian wine And then suddenly 00:26:45.579 --> 00:26:47.960 you have my wine there, you know So but for me 00:26:47.960 --> 00:26:49.420 the most important thing is that all these people 00:26:49.420 --> 00:26:52.329 have to place a wine correctly I think being 00:26:52.329 --> 00:26:54.349 a chef, you also know like where you want your 00:26:54.349 --> 00:26:57.069 wines to be. And so that's how I sort of started, 00:26:57.109 --> 00:26:58.789 you know, here there was a chef here and there. 00:26:58.849 --> 00:27:00.750 And I said, well, maybe could you get like a 00:27:00.750 --> 00:27:03.670 case of wine? And it just started being in super 00:27:03.670 --> 00:27:06.609 gastronomic restaurants. And I think now that 00:27:06.609 --> 00:27:08.910 it sort of has been staying like that for a while. 00:27:09.089 --> 00:27:12.490 Are there any like important or like super loyal 00:27:12.490 --> 00:27:14.630 restaurants that have been there from the beginning? 00:27:14.690 --> 00:27:18.269 I mean, obviously Mugritz is one of them. Randomly, 00:27:18.269 --> 00:27:20.339 I found out the other day it's in Geranium. which 00:27:20.339 --> 00:27:22.599 I think is, yeah, which for me is super cool. 00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:24.700 Yeah, definitely. So I'm like, wow, this is like 00:27:24.700 --> 00:27:26.900 amazing, you know? And in Hong Kong, it's pretty 00:27:26.900 --> 00:27:28.619 much, yeah, and all the Michelin restaurants 00:27:28.619 --> 00:27:33.259 in China as well. Yeah, so I'm very surprised, 00:27:33.259 --> 00:27:35.759 but I think the feedback has been positive. So 00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:37.400 I think that they look at the label, they like 00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:39.279 it, and then the wine's also good, so I'm happy 00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:43.400 with that. I was on a recent trip to Japan, and 00:27:43.400 --> 00:27:47.220 there is an emerging culture of local Japanese 00:27:47.220 --> 00:27:52.960 wines. Yeah, they're really great. It was actually 00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:56.680 a pottery event, so there were ceremonies from 00:27:56.680 --> 00:27:59.490 all over Japan. The event also had some chefs 00:27:59.490 --> 00:28:01.809 invited and all of the wines were local wines. 00:28:01.970 --> 00:28:04.890 So it was really interesting to see the... Yeah, 00:28:04.970 --> 00:28:07.849 they have a lot of French varieties and now they're 00:28:07.849 --> 00:28:09.890 making wines even in Hokkaido, which is super 00:28:09.890 --> 00:28:14.690 cold. But really nice, really very fine and elegant 00:28:14.690 --> 00:28:17.589 Pinot Noir, which is really random. But see, 00:28:17.710 --> 00:28:19.369 you can't... Yeah, I think that's now... The 00:28:19.369 --> 00:28:20.829 world's going to change, you know, because you're 00:28:20.829 --> 00:28:22.470 making wine now in places where you didn't think 00:28:22.470 --> 00:28:25.710 you could make high quality wines, right? Yeah. 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:27.640 So yeah, for me, you know, the most important 00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:29.339 thing is where they're placed and telling the 00:28:29.339 --> 00:28:31.319 story. Because at the end of the day, I can't 00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:33.220 tell the story to every single person. So you 00:28:33.220 --> 00:28:35.420 really need to have really good people who can 00:28:35.420 --> 00:28:38.500 communicate. And also believe in the story because, 00:28:38.579 --> 00:28:40.900 like I said, I've only been doing this for six 00:28:40.900 --> 00:28:44.259 years. I think maybe it's like you're watching, 00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:47.039 what is it, like history being made? Not history, 00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:50.539 but basically how the project began and where 00:28:50.539 --> 00:28:53.480 it can be in 20 years. totally it's gonna be 00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:54.940 completely different but you were there from 00:28:54.940 --> 00:28:57.079 the beginning and you can see that that person 00:28:57.079 --> 00:28:59.299 and the wines have developed because every year 00:28:59.299 --> 00:29:01.359 for me the objective is making a better wine 00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:04.539 than the previous year and If not, I would not 00:29:04.539 --> 00:29:07.779 take out the product. And do you see yourself 00:29:07.779 --> 00:29:13.119 sticking to the Rioja denomination or? I don't 00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:17.380 know you know for now Because so when you have 00:29:17.380 --> 00:29:19.819 a winery in the Rioja denomination you can't 00:29:19.819 --> 00:29:23.420 make non Rioja wine in the same physical space. 00:29:23.579 --> 00:29:27.559 I would have to build another winery. So that's 00:29:27.559 --> 00:29:29.980 one of the rules, for example. So it would have 00:29:29.980 --> 00:29:34.559 to be declassifying everything that I do. So 00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:36.839 it's either all or nothing. You can't do like 00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:38.559 half. So for me, it's a little bit risky for 00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:40.859 now. That's pretty crazy, yeah. I didn't know 00:29:40.859 --> 00:29:43.420 that there were all this. Yeah, that's intense. 00:29:44.129 --> 00:29:48.490 I thought it was only regulating the formulation, 00:29:48.930 --> 00:29:52.069 the percentage of Tempranillo versus other grapes. 00:29:52.069 --> 00:29:55.049 No, no, no. It's the winery. So when you build 00:29:55.049 --> 00:29:57.089 a winery, they come, they do an inspection, they 00:29:57.089 --> 00:30:00.089 do an audit two or three times a year. I mean, 00:30:00.109 --> 00:30:02.670 it's very strict. But if you decide that you 00:30:02.670 --> 00:30:05.390 don't want to do Rioja anymore, they would have 00:30:05.390 --> 00:30:07.690 to declassify everything that you do. So you 00:30:07.690 --> 00:30:10.009 would be a winery. You wouldn't have to submit 00:30:10.009 --> 00:30:12.869 to any of their rules, but you could never, ever... 00:30:13.099 --> 00:30:15.579 do Rioja. Like, it's very hard to come back. 00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:17.759 It's very hard to come back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:19.519 Oh, that's crazy. So once you make the decision, 00:30:19.579 --> 00:30:21.240 you need to be really clear. So actually, there's 00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:24.779 one winery in La Guardia, which is, we're in 00:30:24.779 --> 00:30:27.240 Rioja Alaves, about a 15 -minute drive. It's 00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:30.539 called Artadi. And they're a family -run winery, 00:30:30.539 --> 00:30:32.980 really big. But they're so big that they knew 00:30:32.980 --> 00:30:35.650 that they didn't even need Rioja anymore. So 00:30:35.650 --> 00:30:38.190 they left, but this was in the late 90s, early 00:30:38.190 --> 00:30:40.430 2000s. And they're still doing really well because 00:30:40.430 --> 00:30:41.930 their vineyards are absolutely amazing. They 00:30:41.930 --> 00:30:43.470 don't need it, but you need to be that kind of 00:30:43.470 --> 00:30:46.809 winery to do that. I also understand commercially 00:30:46.809 --> 00:30:48.950 it's very good for you to be Rioja. It's like 00:30:48.950 --> 00:30:51.009 a good stamp. I think for Rioja, I mean, I'm 00:30:51.009 --> 00:30:53.789 not a bad addition. I don't know. They would 00:30:53.789 --> 00:30:56.950 have to tell me, but I think it's okay. And I 00:30:56.950 --> 00:30:58.690 think now we're living in a time where there's 00:30:58.690 --> 00:31:03.420 a lot of people my age. inheriting vineyards 00:31:03.420 --> 00:31:05.779 that are making sort of like very similar or 00:31:05.779 --> 00:31:08.420 parallel styles and I think that it's changing 00:31:08.420 --> 00:31:10.579 the face of Rioja and I think it's changing the 00:31:10.579 --> 00:31:13.319 conversation which is also very important. There's 00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:16.180 also something I want to understand like how 00:31:16.180 --> 00:31:19.640 broad is the possibilities of styles within the 00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:22.559 denomination? Is it infinite or is it constrained 00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:26.980 somehow? Depends how freaky you want to go. Because 00:31:26.980 --> 00:31:29.720 for example let's say for example pilsner beer 00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:31.500 you know like they can be different but they 00:31:31.500 --> 00:31:34.440 are all pretty much similar okay and it's something 00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:37.059 i've only had one sort of fighter yeah you know 00:31:37.059 --> 00:31:39.200 like they're similar they're different but they're 00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:41.680 all concerned i think if you try you know at 00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:43.920 the end of the day you need to have it's called 00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:47.819 like the hand of the grape grower but also the 00:31:47.819 --> 00:31:50.460 hands of the person making the wine because you 00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:52.819 can have depending what kind of quality grapes 00:31:52.819 --> 00:31:55.339 you get in It's like in the kitchen, you know 00:31:55.339 --> 00:31:59.220 70 % is product and 30 % is you know Execution 00:31:59.220 --> 00:32:02.680 right? I would say the same for winemaking. It's 00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:03.839 really important to have really good product 00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:08.940 and then from there making a great wine So and 00:32:08.940 --> 00:32:11.240 can you play around with the with the product 00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:13.519 like with the soil and something so that's also 00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:15.940 super control? No, the soil is what it is so 00:32:15.940 --> 00:32:19.609 you can have gravel soil, alluvial, you have 00:32:19.609 --> 00:32:21.329 limestone. There's a lot of limestone clay in 00:32:21.329 --> 00:32:25.509 this particular area. There's also sand and sandstone, 00:32:25.609 --> 00:32:29.150 like arenisca. And so the beauty of it is you 00:32:29.150 --> 00:32:31.470 can, depending on the soil, even though it's 00:32:31.470 --> 00:32:33.269 the same particular grape, let's say you have 00:32:33.269 --> 00:32:34.630 five different soils, but it's the same grape, 00:32:34.730 --> 00:32:36.650 tempranillo all around, the wines are all different. 00:32:36.970 --> 00:32:39.049 Because you play with altitude, you play with 00:32:39.049 --> 00:32:42.750 soil, you play with vigor. The older the vines 00:32:42.750 --> 00:32:45.539 are... The smarter they are actually is quite 00:32:45.539 --> 00:32:47.680 interesting. They control their own yield naturally. 00:32:48.140 --> 00:32:50.440 So you have more loose grapes, you have smaller 00:32:50.440 --> 00:32:52.400 berries, which is always what you want. You don't 00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:53.819 want to have fatty grapes because that's a lot 00:32:53.819 --> 00:32:55.240 of juice, so there's not a lot of concentration. 00:32:55.779 --> 00:32:58.420 So with these parameters, you can play around 00:32:58.420 --> 00:33:00.740 and they're not strict on that. It's basically, 00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:04.019 they don't also tell you how you want your, you 00:33:04.019 --> 00:33:06.279 want to do conventional viticulture, which is 00:33:06.279 --> 00:33:07.819 basically with a lot of chemicals, you can do 00:33:07.819 --> 00:33:10.059 that. You want to be biodynamic, you can also 00:33:10.059 --> 00:33:13.410 do that. No one is saying no against that. I 00:33:13.410 --> 00:33:15.309 think there's a little bit more control in what 00:33:15.309 --> 00:33:18.410 is the winery. You can mix all the plots, but 00:33:18.410 --> 00:33:21.150 there's always going to be a percentage limit 00:33:21.150 --> 00:33:24.150 of how many grapes, white grapes, you can add 00:33:24.150 --> 00:33:29.009 in a red wine or in a rosé, for example. So it 00:33:29.009 --> 00:33:31.250 really... And you also decide if you want to 00:33:31.250 --> 00:33:34.569 play the game or not. Okay. Okay. Super interesting. 00:33:34.869 --> 00:33:42.259 Yeah. That's it for this week's episode of Potluck 00:33:42.259 --> 00:33:44.579 Food Talks. If you like what we're doing, make 00:33:44.579 --> 00:33:46.839 sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never 00:33:46.839 --> 00:33:49.480 miss an episode. You can also find us on Instagram 00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:52.980 and TikTok as Potluck Food Talks. The show airs 00:33:52.980 --> 00:33:53.440 every Monday.