Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. I'm
here with my man Phil. We're going to La Rioja.
For sure, the most important wine region in Spain.
100%. While we go there, we're going to talk
about game. Yeah, not Squid Game. Not video games.
Not the games. Not X Games. No, like deer, hare.
Wild food. More. Cajuns, squab, etc. Pheasants.
Yeah. Grouse, snipe, mallard. So, what's the
deal with game? I mean, I absolutely love game.
I mean, I grew up in a family, I think like 50
% of the people in my family have a hunting license.
In Germany, you need to have a license, which
actually takes you about between a year and two
years to make. depending on like how how far
you want to take it that doesn't also mean that
you can just go out and hunt that means that
you know about how the animals live what sort
of cycles they have you know about what milk
makes a healthy forest the anatomy of the animals
etc etc diseases and then you can go with a local
hunter and like all the territories kind of like
divided up But yes, I grew up with a lot of game.
It's a big part of German and Spanish cooking
culture. Yeah, Central Europe in general, I would
say. Yeah, for sure. And some parts more than
others, you know. For sure. What about you? For
me, it's completely different. I grew up in Caracas,
in a big city, and there is no hunting there
at all. There is hunting in... in venezuela like
in deeper regions i remember having a deer in
venezuela they're also like this river peak something
like that okay like a capybara kind of yeah exactly
oh yeah yeah we call it that's also something
that you will find also some styles of boars
but in general i i i was very ignorant to the
whole game thing until i came to europe the first
restaurant i i worked in europe was mugaritz
and They've always worked with these little birds,
like different kinds of little birds. And for
me, it's the best place where I've tried them.
But then I also worked in Catalonia, in Racoda
Campavas, where I had to pluck birds for weeks.
Yeah. As a punishment. It's a lot of work. No,
but literally, that's all I would do, like all
day long, just pluck birds. But I also plucked
birds in Mugari, so I already knew how to do
this. And it was the first time that I got in
contact with, you know, like having this strong
gamey flavor. Because I remember also having
tried, let's say, boar in Venezuela for an international
event. But for me, this was like some kind of
like a dark pig without the gamey flavor. For
me, that's like a very distinctive flavor that
makes the game game. And it's this, I would describe
it, I don't know, like the smell of... a horse
hair or something like that like a very strong
aroma a very strong quality to it like iron and
this kind of things yeah and for me that that's
what game is about and and how you build a drink
around it and a sauce and everything yeah absolutely
i mean it's like gamey flavor i mean you call
it gamey flavor you know in english it can be
it can be very nice and very balanced and very
pleasant, or it can be really, really overpowering.
It depends on a lot of stuff, you know, the stage
of what the animal is in, how it's shot is very
important, you know. So you can't just, it's
not just like you shoot it until it's dead. Like,
it has to be very specific shot. For example,
deer, you have to shoot traditionally through
the back shoulder blade into the heart so you
don't rupture any important organs that will
taint the meat. I think we should, like, maybe
go through, like, the different types of game.
and kind of talk about that you know i mean yeah
sure in germany um it's definitely boar and um
and deer the different types of venison yeah
i mean boar you were talking about it's like
water pigs what do they taste like i'm not i'm
not super familiar with that one with the cheek
reader like i i tried it a few times and it was
not like uh i wasn't even a cook back then what
i had back back there was like a boar Yeah, I
really got in contact with what I understand
as game when I came to Europe. I mean, in Germany,
like boar, there's boars everywhere, right? Boars
almost to a point where they're a plague, especially
like in the north of Germany, in the area around
Berlin, Brandenburg, there used to be a big problem,
which is why hunting is also important. We need
to talk about the ethical side of hunting also,
right? especially like i feel like americans
that's kind of like a hunting you're just shooting
animals it's like gun obsession and blah but
actually hunting done in a good way is maintaining
a certain ecosystem because obviously it's the
human influence that the ecosystems aren't what
they used to be anymore but that's why it's also
important to keep a sort of like equilibrium
because there's not a natural sort of like predator
prey um relationship anymore so you basically
i mean in germany anyway a job a hunter's job
is to keep the forest healthy and keep the equilibrium
going and so um yeah ball in germany plenty plenty
also really high quality um usually like stewed
but lately there's like a couple of chefs that
have tried to approach balls in a different way
because such a cool product and trying to find
a different way of making it. So, for example,
Lode van Zulian of a restaurant Remy in Berlin,
he was serving this boar steak, which was super
cool, I thought, because nobody does that. Like
with good pigs, when you separate, for example,
if you take a thigh that you normally have to
cut down and brace, but if you separate all the
different muscle strands and the connective tissue,
and then you can take these individual muscles
and treat them almost like a piece of meat that
you can cook pink. I think that's super, super
interesting. Oh yeah, for sure. We were just
talking about that yesterday, because this conversation
started because yesterday we had a game dish,
becada. How do you say becada in Spanish? Snipe.
Snipe. Snipe bird that was stood. And I had that
bird before, but every time I had it, it was
this more modern approach, like cooking it basically
like a very rare steak, where it's just grilled
on the outside or pink or even red on the inside.
And for me, that's the best way. for me still
is the best way, like I really enjoy it that
way. But the traditional way is stewed, you know,
like in a sauce, cooked in a sauce and so on.
Same thing with boars. Like I was traveling,
I was backpacking in Italy, in the Tuscany, and
there are a lot of boars around there. And I
was like illegally camping around with my, just
traveling with my tent. Because I was poor, I
had no money for hotels. It was just a bum, basically.
Of course. Jokes aside, I would send my brother
my GPS location every night. So if I got eaten
by boars, at least he would know where to find
me. Where to look through the boar poop to find
remnants of area. And so I was scared about boars
because I read about it. They're dangerous. They're
dangerous. And basically what you have to do
is you have to climb a tree to avoid any attack.
So I would camp strategically where I would see
a tree that I was able to climb and I would think
about this kind of stuff. But I didn't have contact
just once with a boar and I shit in my pants.
It was like, what the fuck? It just walked across
me and I was like, ah! And... so the only thing
that made me feel better was just after that
to go to a restaurant and have like a chingales
too just to feel the superiority of my species
of course as you do exactly i really enjoyed
that but um so this again was like a poor stew
yeah and cooked in sauce and i again like okay
okay of course pork is more delicate and you
have to really understand what you're doing if
you're going to cook it pink or red yeah exactly
but it's also doable for sure you know like but
you have to know what you're doing yeah i mean
like game like meat is one of the best sources
of protein that you can have it's mega mega healthy
it's super good because if it's a good healthy
animal with no diseases it'll have had a really
really good life outside eating very very healthy
things you know like little insects and herbs
and perennials and stuff like that. Very lean
most of the time, very little fat and just packed
full of nutrients and protein. It's really, really
healthy. I think more people should eat game
meat. Do game animals have microchips with GPS
in Germany? No, not really. Because I know a
story about here some they have, but you will
also find out, let's say in... well that with
gps is more modern but for example with birds
they would put rings in the rings yeah you know
to study the bird you know like to measure how
big the the wings are and if somebody catches
the same bird like sometime later they can't
do studies and this kind of stuff yeah so i know
this story that they found like uh it was like
this board that had a gps and they found they
found it in the freezer of a hunter in galicia
yeah because it was illegally hunted but through
the gps they they found the guy it was already
chopped and freezed that's crazy that's so funny
yeah you have to be careful yeah illegal hunting
is a big thing it's like it's a big crime i remember
for example in venezuela working in a restaurant
where they would It was like a wedding, and they
would arrive with these sacks, like potato sacks,
you know? Potato bags full of lobsters. But like,
I'm talking about, I don't know, maybe 100 kilos
of lobster, and this was out of season. So it
was illegal catching. yeah and just like ah you
know we need to make money you know especially
in latin america where whatever you can bribe
whoever you can do whatever you want you know
like these things are a huge ecological problem
yeah what else deer obviously i think deer is
the king of the game venison you know yeah i
mean it's i was kind of wondering about this
in other like places of the world i've only really
seen venison like very popular in in europe it's
like there's a season if it's hunting season
you know you'll see venison on a lot of menus
boar stew or venison right venison loin usually
but yeah yet again venison is also something
that i've seen like traditional german recipes
where it's marinated overnight with a lot of
stuff and this kind of things and then stewed
with like red wine and exactly an orange and
lots of spices and and for me again like what
i love about a good venison is eating it like
a steak or like a pink jay. 100%, that's so good.
I mean, with venison also, it's really, really
good. This technique that I was talking about,
like two years ago, I used to have venison on
the menu a lot because I was working with this
venison farmer because you can farm venison also.
He has like big areas where the deer run around
wild and stuff until they're shot. And he would
send me shoulders that I would then like take
apart, completely marinate with a little bit
of garum that we were making from all the meat
offcuts and then just grill. Grill, rest, grill,
rest, grill, rest, pink. Absolutely delicious.
That's all you need. Some of the best meat ever.
You don't need to overcomplicate it. Just throw
it to the grill. Yeah, totally. Do you think
game can be raised in a farm or that wouldn't
be game anymore? No, I think so. Like, I mean,
it's definitely game. It's like, I mean, you
can't raise it in a farm that is like bad farm
practice anyway, you know, where everything is
sort of like... you can have areas that are fenced
off where they have a natural environment where
they run around and you kind of control how they
reproduce you can make sure that they have all
the all the things that they need to eat they
you know that they're healthy it's also good
because they're like protected from from predators
and from other diseases you know cross contamination
with like you know because like the game travels
can travel like quite a long while and i think
that's totally fine and i think that's actually
really really good and that's this is a sort
of farming practice that we should support more
of where animals are in an environment that is
their natural environment they're roaming free
they're on the fresh air they're eating natural
foods they're not getting pumped up full of hormones
and whatever and then at some point you know
they are used for their meat yeah i remember
with my brother in houston visiting a place where
they had squab oh yeah but yeah these squabs
were like you know America. So these were like
micro fat chickens, you know, and it felt completely
raised to me. It didn't have it. I mean, it was
delicious. I have to say super fatty, but I was
missing that gamey flavor that what I said that
I could describe it as the smell of horse hair,
something like that. It didn't have this. And
I'm sure they were raised. birds you know like
for me like a squat like a proper one you have
to get the the bullets out of your mouth while
you're eating you know like yeah yeah that's
true i mean like for me the most beautiful uh
game cooking that i've encountered was for one
in england in the uk absolutely amazing if you've
not been to the uk in like game season you know
um it's it's super celebrated all the restaurants
in london have game on the menu It's not just
like every now, here, and there, or like fine
dining. There's venison. There's mallard, which
is a wild duck, right? They're like ducks that
are flying, you know, the fluke engine. Yeah.
There's grouse. We had those wild dogs and campawas
as well. They're amazing. Yeah, and it's like
a completely different thing because again, it
has this gamey note that I'm saying. It can be
uncomfortable for someone who doesn't understand
what it is because it's a very strong flavor
and it's not what you find in a normal supermarket
dog. Grouse, also super underrated bird. Pheasant,
you know, all over the place. And all the menus
say underneath, like, I mean, mostly they say
game may contain shot. exactly yeah which is
like important this is a natural product it gets
shot it comes from the fucking countryside and
it's kind of like a hunter that is skillful will
shoot the game, especially the birds, because
the birds need to be shot with like the small
bullets, you know, the grape shot. Yeah, in Spanish
it's perdigones, it's like a rain of little bullets.
They'll shoot it in a way that, you know, it
doesn't damage the meat because if you shoot
it wrong it's just going to completely blow up
the bird. I was not kidding or nor exaggerating
when I said that finding a bullet in your mouth
is an indicator of the quality of game. And you
have to understand that while you're eating,
it's like when you're eating fish, you won't
just swallow without thinking. You have to understand
that there can be bones and you have to be careful.
Absolutely. A super, super beautiful game culture.
And then obviously France has an insane culture
of cooking game. in a way that is almost mythical
to me so things about that that i really love
like french game cooking especially with birds
is like taking all the offals and flambéing this
and maybe adding some orange or citrus and i
mean like this pate this paste of the all of
the offals made into some kind of black pudding
-ish kind of thing yeah i love that yeah i also
love using the the offal to bind sauces together
amazing yeah so so so delicious it might sound
to people that are not used to it really disgusting
but it's um it's also not super easy to do because
if you boil it it's going to curdle and it's
going to be sort of like scrambled egg sauce
and it's really awful also with blood because
it's basically just pure protein um but if you
do it right it's just like chocolatey creamy
exactly that's also like a dirty trick adding
just a little bit of chocolate just a little
that you want it won't taste like chocolate you
can also do that of course but just a little
bit that adds color it binds it it has this cocoa
notes uh put on the back and i that for me that
works amazingly well you know the thing about
game cooking is now that we're talking about
it is it's a real appreciation for the animal
like i and i wish we would do that with more
animals where it's kind of like like you were
saying just with the offal a lot of restaurants
that i really like for example the uk when you
order let's say a grouse or a snipe or whatever
you often get like a little piece of like toasted
bread with the offals flambéed on top of it like
an awful toast yeah that's exactly what so you
have the meat and you have the offers on the
side and you you appreciate the whole animal
yeah and because it's something special it took
a lot of effort to get it and it's very short
season you celebrate that time and that moment
that you can have it and you celebrate the life
of the animal that you that you took so that
you can eat it And I think that's really beautiful
and I wish that we would do that with a lot more
stuff. Imagine we would do that with chickens
or imagine we would do that with cows. It would
be amazing. Absolutely, yeah. And a lot less
food waste. Well, I think all folks are having
a comeback. Statistically, here in Spain, they're
having a huge comeback. People are more open
to it, both from the sustainability side but
also from the adventurous. approach to eating
and you find more and more in restaurants of
course there are traditional things that have
always been there but like more strange things
are starting to have way more acceptance yeah
yeah totally game bones for me one of my favorite
bases to cook sauce out of i used to when i was
working at auto we used to make jus just by like
getting really good venison bones which again
is like using the whole animal right with a little
bit of meat on them roasting them really really
dark Then piling a pot full of them with roasted
onions and just adding enough water to cover
it and then slowly reducing it down. Not like
vegetables here and wine and blah, just like
pure, pure meat sauce. Okay. It was super, super
delicious. Completely concentrated. And for me,
like, as you know, I'm not the person that will
have wine all over the meal and every meal and
a long wine pairing with a meal. with game I
think it's relevant to have like a proper full
-bodied heavy strong red whatever it is absolutely
in that direction yeah have you ever made um
I haven't made it no no but I I know the dish
and I've seen many versions of it and I I tried
a few but I haven't cooked it myself it's a I
think it's a super amazing dish I really got
into it when I was at Mugaritz because when game
season hit We tried to look into it. Pascal Barbeau
in his book, in his last transcript book, has
like three pages talking about this dish. It's
basically traditionally like a three -day process
of like marinating the meat, cooking it down,
straining, making the sauce, shredding the meat,
putting it back together, putting it back into
the sauce. It's basically hair in a very rich,
meaty game sauce. but it's so luxurious when
it's done right i think like you know Paul Bocuse
was famous for it it's really almost comically
obscene rabbit with the heads that was then sourced
yeah and this this famous head chef that he has
this mustache guy that is an mof best craftsman
in france he was like a master yeah it's such
a luxurious dish it's uh it's amazing are snakes
game snakes Ah, snails. No, snakes. Snakes. Like
if you're somewhere where there's snakes and
you catch a snake, would you consider that game?
Where do we draw the line? Wow. Okay, it's a
good question because I feel it has to be red
meat to be game. Otherwise, probably not reptiles.
Because, of course, you can hunt a crocodile.
And I've had that in Bolivia. We did ceviches
with crocodile meat. Which is interesting because
it feels like a chicken. somewhere between a
chicken and a fish ceviche with crocodile meat
yeah wow that's intense yeah and yeah that that
was like a super nice dish from camila's idler
uh but yeah they they were like different so
it was not a ceviche ceviche more like a tiradito
with different parts of the watermelon uh so
it was a like a nose to take cooking off the
watermelon so like using all the parts of the
fruit like the skin different parts and pickling
it and infusing it with the herbs and yeah super
nice that's really cool one of the most outstanding
game dishes that i've ever had it's also for
me the dish that most stands out from my time
in mugaritz was a dish that ramon perisse made
and it was um kind of like a spontaneous dish
for a returning customer and i think that like
especially in the time when i was there the spontaneous
dishes that they made for like regulars were
the best And it was snipe that was stewed in
like a really Catalan sort of way, like a game
stew with bacalao tribes, salt cod tribe. And
this mixture of fish and game flavor together
with the gelatinous quality that it gave to the
meat sauce. That's insane. Absolutely insane.
And I'm still thinking about that. Because that
cod tribe is really like, it has such a particular
texture, you know. kind of sticky but soft and
um it's fishy but but also mild so it's like
a super interesting thing to me that was like
still today like super super high yeah surf and
turf with with especially with birds i think
it's incredible yeah and when i'm talking about
spices i think game is also like a super nice
playground for spices i can think of rassel i
can think of What's the thing that you put on
gin? Juniper berries. Juniper berries or anise,
cinnamon, all those kind of things. But I think,
again, you want to be subtle with spices. You
want the meat to keep the protagonism. But, for
example, if you have, like, you mentioned having
a bread with this awful paste. Imagine, for example,
a brioche that is spiced. Having that there,
at least in my mental palate, works amazingly
well. That's a really nice idea. A few years
ago, I had these really, really wonderful geese
on the menu. And geese, it's kind of like, well,
are they game? Kind of in the middle. But they
are full of really beautiful offal. So I would
do a piece of sourdough, toast it, like grilled,
and then one side soaked in like geese jus and
brown butter, just so like half of it soaks full.
Then the offal grilled on the grill, put on top.
And then from, we had Szechuan peppercorns that
we were growing in the garden. Amazing. Just
a little bit of like fresh green Szechuan pepper
on top. amazing absolutely amazing then you have
a couple of herbs on top and you have this like
juicy bread that when you bite into it the juices
kind of flow out of the bread like a sponge and
it's like slightly spicy creamy awful that was
a stellar dish it was incredible you know what
this is something i haven't tried but it makes
perfect sense in my mind uh having a proper nice
mole with game i think that's a much made in
heaven 100 yeah absolutely easily one thing that
i also thought that was really cool is venison
tataki so i used to work with this really really
inspiring chef called junior yamasaki who's now
got a restaurant in la called yes and he had
a very very or still has a very unique vision
very pure very real food and he used to take
venison loins and skewer them and then on a grill
throw a big bunch of hay so that it would like
flame up and he would hold the venison into the
flame so it was like half smoked half seared
really really high intensity and then take it
off then slice it really thin as a tataki super
delicious and he served that with back then with
preserved crab apples you know crab apples these
like little apples like this tiny wild apples
yeah exactly you can't eat them raw you usually
make them into like jellies or pickles or yeah
and they have a super distinctive flavor also
and you use that you kind of like preserve them
with like it was like a little bit mustardy and
that together it was absolutely incredible um
but obviously it takes balls to serve um venison
raw but a venison tartar also amazing used to
do this thing where all the rest of the like
the offcuts of the venison i used to make into
this chunky tartar there's this really cool technique
about making tartar that people at home can adapt
if they want to i'll tell you my secret technique
you take the the meat that you have it has to
be clean of all the sinews right you cut it into
walnut sized chunks or something that will work
well for your grinder then you weigh it you calculate
two percent of salt you add it to the meat mix
it and you put it in the freezer so it's ice
cold takes probably like half an hour and then
you let that ice cold through a coarse mincer
to mince it like one time and the salt obviously
it seasons the meat throughout so it's almost
like met you know have you had a met protein
yes yes yeah yeah but also it cures the meat
it changes the texture texture slightly it makes
it bright red and kind of like wow how can i
describe it yeah that's very danish isn't it
in a way yeah maybe it is yeah yeah like i've
seen that for me that reminds me of the style
of tortas you will find in copenhagen like at
manfred yeah yeah that's true yeah it was kind
of similar like that and it's super delicious
it changes the texture i used to serve it with
like um anchovy mayonnaise well my which again
is surf and turf yeah no and my top one tartar
that i've ever had was a venison tartar in copenhagen
i don't remember the place there's a place uh
marvin ben oh yeah yeah okay and So it was venison
tartare. But the interesting thing is, you know,
in a tartare you want to add condiments, right?
Like acidity, pickles, stuff like this. Well,
it was, first of all, venison. And then all of
this world of condiments and things was new Nordic.
So you would have elements of the forest, like
pine pickles or pine sprouts and all these sort
of things. And then on top of that, like the
surf and turf component, also the egg. and salty
component was caviar mixed into the tartare,
which is something I think is relatively modern
to find. And I see that more and more. I mean,
caviar right now is completely hyped. Just recently,
I saw an article in The Economist and New York
Times that caviar is like on top of its moment
right now. It's at a peak moment. of consumption
but yeah having caviar and tartars is something
i would say relatively modern i i haven't seen
that like i would say 20 years ago and now you
see it relatively often anywhere you know and
it had that it had like a cured quail yolk in
the middle and then croutons and stuff and that
was it it was incredible it sounds delicious
That's it for this week's episode of Potluck
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