hi everyone welcome to potluck food talks i'm
vladimir putin and i'm here with my friend kim
jong -un and we're going to conquer some lands
across the globe we're finally conquering the
best country so what's the plan we're going to
oreo now yeah first the plan is not to drive
over any uh little puppies yeah the place we're
going this is bodegon hoshimari i know the Well,
you saw the videos. I did. It's iconic. Very
classic fish grilling. How do you say besugo
in English? I have no idea, actually. Besugo
is like a super popular fish here. And like a
really expensive fish also, no? Besugo is like,
it's pricey, right? Yeah, I think if you go to
this grill places, it's... It's a big piece of
fish, the greatest you can get. It's super meaty
and delicious. I have no idea what it's called,
actually. But they were very pioneer in the besuga
grilling in the region. And I don't know when
they opened, but they're for sure over 50 years
old, that place. Yeah, it's like super, super
iconic. You said they were pioneering in like
the fish grilling technique, no? That's what
I was explaining yesterday, that there are two
schools, the Orio school and the Getaria school.
We're going to drive by Getaria, where El Cano
is. Have you been to Elcano Chiqui? I've never
been to either Elcano or Elcano Chiqui. I think
you would love both of them. They're completely
different experiences. I can imagine that. Elcano
is like a fine dining setting. And Elcano Chiqui
is more like a casual place, you know? But they
have the same produce from Elcano. You have to
book and you can only be there for two hours.
And you're kicked out because they have the table
for... So they do double seating. That's fair
enough. and i mean it's a very casual place you
know like you go there you have your whole menu
i remember the last time i was there we were
a little bit late and they were like they didn't
allow us to because we're already in a car and
it was like that's too much and then you're not
going to finish it no it will take too long yeah
and we have to leave we want our afternoon break
so you're late that's really funny yeah but i
mean obviously elcano you know, is now also world
famous, you know, as like the reference. I remember
when I first came to the Basque Country, it was
like, kind of like everybody was talking about
Echevary and people were sort of like, yeah,
but have you heard of Elcano? And now it's like
just as famous, you know. But I'm glad that the
selection of places we're making, we're avoiding
the golden route. that everybody does, which
is Echevarri, Casa Julian, Elcano, like everybody
knows that. And I think there's so much more
to it, like to get to other places and other
villages around San Sebastian that are lesser
known for the larger public. And I think that's
the whole point. Yeah. And yesterday we had an
interesting experience at MUCA that sparked like
a debate about desserts and restaurants and some
people think in many fine dining restaurants
or high -end restaurants it's like a turn -off
when the desserts come it's like oh this was
an amazing menu like an amazing experience and
suddenly ah here it comes desserts and you have
like like lame desserts uh they they just don't
add or stand up to the level of the rest of the
experience in many cases what are your thoughts
about that i don't necessarily agree with that
yeah so um a lot of people say the the main thing
that people are going to remember from a dinner
is the dessert because it's the last thing that
they have you want to end on a high note and
there's a lot of importance put on desserts but
you know the other half is kind of sort of like
well how do you want people to leave like it
should just be like a light refreshment there's
also like the discrepancy between kind of like
well do you want something rich and something
filling or do you actually want the opposite
of that do you want something to be light and
refreshing or do you on purpose give people like
both options this is you know the people have
different opinions about this yeah for example
my opinion is so i personally when after i like
a long tasting menu i rather have something light
especially light and not so overwhelmingly you
know like with many components i already have
that you know like what we had yesterday is like
very like two three element desserts like or
Even like just one main element, you know, like
this is an ice cream. This is a panna cotta.
This is a piece of fruit, you know, with an ice
cream or something around. But a dessert that
is already like a plated thing with many, many
components, like a lot of information. I don't
want that anymore at that point. I personally,
in most cases. Yeah, I totally get that, you
know, I totally get that. And it's really difficult
also from like a restaurateur's perspective.
It's a difficult territory to navigate. Well,
yet at the same time, I have to think about the
dessert I had at Mass in Tokyo. Yes. That was,
at the same time, one of the best chocolate desserts.
No, for sure, the best chocolate dessert I've
ever had. What was it? It was exactly the opposite
from what I'm just preaching. It was a dessert
with a lot of information. You know, because
it was like a deconstruction of not only chocolate,
cocoa, and the fruit, but also of the... so to
say related fruits from the same fruit family
from the teobroma so you had copo azul which
is not cocoa but like a different fruit a similar
fruit from the same family and another one and
cocoa and different you had it fermented as chocolate
but also of the fresh fruit and juice form and
it was like a like an insane lot of information
there that you had like 30 different components
but it was like almost like a psychedelic trip
to to the experience you know like yeah oh but
that's cool because it's got a narrative and
it's about a product that is tied to the identity
of the restaurant you know it's kind of like
with the apple yesterday that we had you know
like apple very very significant for the basque
region in desserts you play with these like often
very very often with these very very classic
fundamental ingredients like for example we were
talking about vanilla right and it's kind of
like it's very interesting to me to have a dessert
that like showcases vanilla as not just like
because vanilla is a luxury product but often
it's sort of like this bastardized kind of like
let's just put vanilla in it whatever vanilla
ice cream suddenly is like you know like it's
kind of like vanilla ice cream suddenly is this
like super need your contact fuck you shut up
vanilla ice cream suddenly this like super normal
thing right what is like mega special and also
vanilla beans have become really bastardized
in my opinion you get vanilla beans and they're
like really sad if you see a good vanilla bean
Like a fucking juicy, full thing. It's very,
very special. The flavor is very special. People
kind of forget about this. Also, people get very
greedy about it. Just like a micro pinch of vanilla
to your ice cream, just to say that's vanilla.
What we had yesterday, you could really feel
like vanilla. Yeah, for sure. Like the deep notes
of it, because it's such a complex aroma. It
has to be one of the most complex aromas there
is. hundred percent and and you can only experience
it at its full if you add enough of it you know
yeah absolutely i actually for a while my assistant
head chef put a dessert on the menu which was
basically just a vanilla ice cream with a caramel
sauce but the ice cream is very well made with
a shit ton of really high quality vanilla and
the caramel was a very special caramel cooked
Very dark with salted French butter, spices and
pineapple juice amongst other things. So it was
very, very good. And people were really surprised.
And obviously then it's also expensive. We sold
that dessert. It was like a big scoop of ice
cream for like, I think it was like 18 euros
that we sold it as. And people were like, oh,
vanilla ice cream for 18 euros. And then you
get it and you eat it and you can't get it, you
know, because it's, you know, it's generous with
something very high quality. i always have to
think of thomas keller who says like it's like
one of the most important things for a chef is
to be generous and in examples like this like
vanilla ice cream when you like if you know right
you want a vanilla ice cream that's like full
of vanilla and then you get like something that's
like skimped out it's really disappointing it
really takes like the the momentum out of your
experience also something i have to see and for
me that's um that's very moogari like all of
the desserts were like a single component that's
also something that that you see like i work
in many restaurants and the pastries you know
and i always wanted to do desserts like in that
direction and many times the chef would say no
you have to do like a mille -feuille and like
this very complex things with complicated platings
and complicated assembly when you can do like
this you know something that is just one element
that that is very easy to execute same with the
petit fours you know like this over -technical
execution of something that in many cases is
not even eaten, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And
not put any attention to that much, you know?
That wouldn't make me so angry because it was
what took the most effort in production and people
would leave untouched, you know? Yeah, yeah,
yeah. It's a real shame. But like, I really love
the creativity in desserts. And actually, I have
been thinking about this recently because I hired
a new pastry chef. and she comes from a patisserie
background so in germany where i'm currently
working um you have this thing called uh conditor
yeah conditoren which is like what pastries and
primarily cakes layered complex cakes very cool
professions very cool that we have an apprenticeship
for that profession because it's very very unique
she now started in my restaurant and When she's
tasked with making desserts that fit into the
menu, it's very difficult for her, because it's
a completely different approach, especially with
the way that we're cooking, which is very similar
to what we ate at Mucha yesterday. It's very
minimalistic. It's interesting combinations of
a few elements that have to make sense. And she
doesn't get that at all. She's like, ah, let's
make a... I can make... It always starts with
a cake. I can make a biscuit, and then I can
do a mousse. and then i make a gelatin of this
and then i can do this chocolate decoration i'm
like no no no that's we don't want that it's
not a cake shop right we want uh three four items
that are interesting and nice to eat and aesthetic
like you know simple yeah and also where there
is like a bold flavor statement because that's
that that's it's like a completely different
experience the experience you have in a cake
shop you know where you get a cake like a petit
gateau in paris for example that's completely
different where you open a cake and you have
like this whole universe of different textures
and flavors inside the cake yes and and just
a spoonful you have like seven different things
seven different elaborations and yeah that's
the thing on its own and it's also an experience
on its own you go there for that and you're having
that probably with a coffee or a tea yeah and
that's it and you're having that in the middle
of the afternoon or or as a breakfast or whatever
but it's not like in the context of dinner or
you know like a dining experience it can be if
that's what you want to go for but so many other
times you know you you want something you want
to keep that momentum going of sort of like when
you've already had you know like four or five
six dishes that have been kind of you know try
to achieve something where you're sort of like
a little bit a little element of surprise you
know a little bit of ah okay cool i see i haven't
had this before um then a cake's not going to
do that you know but that's in a tasting menu
environment obviously like we were talking yesterday
about well you know somebody maybe wants something
like indulgent and the example of like a lava
cake came up which i think is super valid because
i like nowadays i work in an environment where
i don't do tasting menus i do a la carte right
and i want to make sure that everybody can get
like what they feel like if i had a dessert menu
that only has like that has like a sorbet an
ice cream and a panna cotta i'd be like well
what about somebody who really wants something
super comfy you know i think it's also important
to cater to that so we can't forget that as a
chef you're not just stroking your own ego with
the cool combinations that you're making at the
end of the day you want to sell something to
people that they really want that they really
like while not selling yourself out in the process
Can you think of good examples of restaurants
where you say, this is what a good restaurant
dessert is for me? I mean, yesterday was pretty
great. Yesterday is a very good example. But
some others, I can think of in Paris, I went
to Eels. Yeah. And I remember having there like
desserts where you could get like impressive
technique, like, you know, like getting surprised
by, wow, I'm here getting different textures
and different stuff, like in very little. components,
but it worked pretty well. For example, Fernando
himself, he used to be a pastry chef at Amelia
and Fismuller, exactly. Well, he actually developed
the Basque cheesecake at Fismuller that has become
also like an icon. We were just talking about
Basque cheesecake and the one he did, which is
already part of one of the iconic desserts at
Fismuller in Madrid. And that is a Basque cheesecake
that... Actually, you get the blue cheese. Last
time I was at Amelia, and I remember having,
I think the name is Vigilante, which is like
an Argentinian dessert. Again, very simple, just
goat cheese with sweet potato. Like an interpretation
of an Argentinian dessert. That felt like a little
bit like membrillo with goat cheese. Super nice
as well. Nice. Sounds really good. Goat cheese
with membrillo, that's such a good combination.
And sweet potato. for example in my opinion germany
is not a good example like the places i've been
there i also have to say i was there like a long
time ago there are of course exceptional exceptions
that are exceptionally good desserts and restaurants
but like the typical thing is exactly all what
we're talking about like add a cake to it add
vanilla because you need to add vanilla but not
too much because it's too expensive and could
you get this over and over again yeah different
restaurants yeah yeah for sure um yeah i mean
germany is a weird place anyway because they
were very good at like this like high level michelin
vibe because of like all the like seriousness
and the bar but it's only now developing that
they're kind of having a bit more of like an
open style of cooking. Obviously, you know, also
due to, you know, all the sort of like immigrant
exchange, you know, people coming to like places
like Berlin and opening a little bit more sort
of like casual places because that's where the
trend is also. Nobody wants to, I mean, not nobody,
but so like few people want to go to these like
two or three Michelin star places. They want
restaurants that they can go to every week or
every two weeks or at least once a month if they
want to. So you have all these chefs. We've talked
about this many times before. You have all these
chefs that come from the high level background
and they want to do something accessible where
their friends can also come maybe, you know.
But with the same level of technique and quality.
And there I feel like you get the coolest desserts,
you know. Kind of like what we did yesterday
where it's like minimalistic, cool ideas. Things
where, you know, earlier we were talking about
what's intuition in cooking, you know. Where
you have intuitive combinations of things that
are just very interesting and very delicious.
That maybe you would have to have experienced
to have the idea. And to then put that together
into simple desserts that are kind of like three,
four, five spoonfuls at the end of your... For
me, also what determines a good dessert or even
a dish. Or what makes something memorable. For
me, something memorable, if it's worth telling
a story afterwards, you know, like, oh, I had
this in this place that had this and that. For
example, some of the things we had yesterday,
ah, there was this sour honey sauce, you know,
like, or we had this intense vanilla or this
white chocolate with tonka beans, you know, like
where you can actually tell what you had, you
know, like sometimes you have, you know, it's
just. whatever it's just okay it was just a sweet
bite after the meal yeah but at the same time
i think that um too much emphasis is put on like
smart combinations like that is definitely like
a really cool thing when it's done right but
i also think that we like we mustn't forget that
cooking is a craft not just an art form you know
and i think that very well executed things in
flavor and in technique are very very memorable
like even just like an ice cream a well -made
ice cream that's nice and fatty but light that
isn't crystallized and that is perfectly seasoned
that's going to be memorable a really nicely
made souffle doesn't have to be like invented
doesn't have to be creative it just has to be
well executed and when you hit that sweet spot
then that's going to be memorable you know and
of course there can be a combination between
the two worlds between the artistic and the craft
and that is what makes cooking so special i think
is the combination of the two but a lot of times
people put too much emphasis i think on like
oh let's try to make a cool combination and then
they forget about the other part and then it's
and then it reads cool on the on the menu on
paper but then you eat it and you're kind of
like you know it sounded nice but yeah that happens
actually quite a lot yeah yeah that's another
thing that in many places to desserts like if
there were no seasonality to it yeah totally
and you know like okay because you have creams
and you have vanilla you have a chocolate and
you have these things that are at temporary uh
or not seasonal that's true uh but then which
is not true you know i mean like chocolate yeah
but like vanilla and stuff it does have like
a like a season you know if you really really
get down to the nitty -gritty of it there is
a season for vanilla yeah it's like when it's
better and when it's less good for sure it doesn't
make a huge difference but Okay, I didn't know
about that. Because for me it's a spice and in
that regard you can buy it in a month and use
it 10 months later. It's not going to be the
same though. Most people will probably not notice
it. Even that I think you should approach with...
How do you treat vanilla? Do you freeze it? I
keep it cold and I try to buy it relatively...
I mean not fresh obviously because it's not fresh,
it's fermented. I try to use it up as quickly
as possible. I don't buy like a stock of vanilla
and just have it hanging out, you know. Okay.
Because my vanilla dealer is a guy from Iran
and he selects really high quality, super expensive,
you know. It's like 500 euros a kilo. Yeah. But
it'll be juicy, aromatic vanilla pots, you know.
And like how many times do you go to a supermarket
and buy a vanilla pot? It's this little shriveled
up thing that you can barely get any seeds out.
Wow. It's a supermarket vanilla. Exactly. But
you don't know how long it's been there also.
It could have been three years. Of course. That's
what I'm saying. No, of course. Yeah, there are
vanillas and vanillas. And yeah, I agree with
everything you said. But yeah, not only fruits,
but also vegetables, you know. You can use vegetables
in insanely interesting ways for desserts. I
just mentioned this sweet potato with goat cheese
and quince. you know like for a dessert like
it's like an interpretation of an argentinian
dessert but elevated to a fine dining context
that's just an example i've also seen desserts
with aubergines with eggplants you know like
there are like a lot of of things that you can
turn sweet that are counterintuitive and just
take advantage of the of the seasonality herbs
also absolutely like a basil mousse with something
as classic Strawberries is incredible. Also for
herbs. I mean, also for ice creams with different
herbs. There's a whole universe that you can
unlock just by paying attention to this kind
of thing. Absolutely. I think also when we talk
about seasonality, it's also like the sentiment
of it. Because, for example, you can make...
I think it only makes sense to take advantage
of the season, right? So, like, if strawberries
are in season, like, I want to... absolutely
showcase the strawberry or like rhubarb you know
as soon as the first rhubarb comes i want to
showcase that when it's over then i want to move
on to the next thing but it's also like you can
of course make you can make a dessert with like
a milk -based dessert with like stuff in summer
but you can also like leave it for winter when
there's like a scarcity of produce like making
a dessert based off for example just like milk
and honey and like cereals like grains and stuff
like that It's got a certain vibe and it's got
a certain comfort. And there's a feeling that
it gives you that's very nostalgic in a way,
which can fit really, really well in winter,
you know, when it's cold outside and you want
something that's warm and comforting, where you
don't necessarily want to rely on fresh produce.
And also moving with these sorts of emotional
approaches, what kind of sensation does it give
you after you've eaten it? i think that's something
that people kind of neglect like for example
this like dessert yesterday of the like stewed
apple with the milk ice cream that's like even
though i don't have particular childhood memories
of eating apple with like milk it's exactly that
you eat it and it's kind of like something that
you would maybe eat if you're sick as a child
you know stewed sweet and sour apple milky fatty
ice cream um and for me personally that like
ties into the seasonality just as much as anything
else just like if it's like if you're drinking
a cold soup in the midst of summer when it's
boiling hot or you're drinking a warm broth when
it's raining outside in autumn you know it's
super super impactful that's it for this week's
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