hi everyone welcome to pot luck food talks we're
recording here in san sebastian and suddenly
the sun came out sun came out like the golden
child you are let there be light yeah and we're
having like a super nice coffee from simona and
i was just mentioning that was the old place
where sakona used to be but this is still sakona
coffee roasted by Sakona and it's a super nice
coffee what can you say about it? It's really
nice I love this sort of coffee I like there's
these kinds of coffee that especially like suited
for like flat whites that have or like you know
milky coffees that have this almost like blueberry
flavor. Berry absolutely berry like I feel berries
all over the place on this one. That's super
nice yeah you know what I'm super curious about
is the normal coffee. Oh yeah yeah that's super
interesting. we actually knew this since we went
to Noma they revealed this to us and made us
promise not to say anything until they made the
the the first press release which was yesterday
or the day before yeah i think the day before
yeah um i mean we had some coffee at Noma but
we had this like this coffee mix with like the
like lacto -fermented roast, espuma. It was like
a coffee, right? Yes, exactly. Exactly. Super
nice. I'd be really interested to see what the
difference in approach is for them, you know?
And we'll also have some breakfast. Yeah. This
is Ama cheesecake. For me, the guys at Ama, they
kind of coined this... Wait, wait, wait. Hold
on. What the fuck is going on here? There was
a mouse. What the fuck is going on, guys? Someone
couldn't resist. Unbelievable. We betted yesterday,
so there was some vandalism in the apartment.
Obviously. So I actually talked with Javi, who
is one of the head chefs. There are two executive
chefs at Ama, two partners. He told me they took
one of the many versions of Hilario Arbelaites,
who was the chef at Sueroa, who first coined...
a style of cheesecake with blue cheese and they
took one of the many versions he had and they
developed it into their own thing so the the
key feature about this cheesecake is it has blue
cheese like you would notice is i haven't told
you i already spoiled i should have played the
guess what it is game and it's so little that
you don't notice if nobody tells you but enough
that you will miss it if it's not there yeah
So give it a taste and let me know what you think.
It's too windy here. It's very creamy. It's got
a perfect texture. Wait, I should film this as
well. The texture moment. That's very good. If
you look, it's sad, but it's like ultra creamy.
That's really fucking good. This is my favorite
cheesecake in the Basque Country. I understand
why. And the cheese flavor is so subtle. it's
actually it's actually funny like the best cheesecake
that i've had before also here in the bass country
i mean like bass style cheesecake they had some
goat's cheese in it some fresh goat's cheese
very good it's a christina lirola made it super
super nice actually my friend of mine makes german
style cheesecake i had his cheesecake one time
and he put some aged gouda in it just a little
bit you know and it's got the same effect it
just makes it like complex and fucking wow. Well,
I have to say this is not my favorite cheesecake
of them all, Basque cheesecake. My favorite cheesecake
is, you know, my friend Jose, the Colombian guy.
Yes. He started like a startup in Colombia called
La Vasca. And for me, that's the very best cheesecake.
He does like a cookie crust, which is not so
common in Basque style. The key feature is usually
crustless style. but i mean who doesn't like
a cookie uh so classic combining like new york
style with like past style the best way so and
that one has also like an aged cheese and i know
he did like dozens of tests until he got the
sweet spot and for me it's 10 out of 10 that
one this is also 10 out of 10 but i like that
one better you can find that in and here in spain
only Bogota and Medellin. Honestly, I love the
size also. You know, I've always like with Basque
cheesecake, also when I was doing trials for
restaurants, I always wanted a smaller cheesecake,
but I could never get the cooking right. I was
always dreaming of like an individual cheesecake
portion or like to share for two people, but
I could never get the cooking right because it
was like either too much or too little. It's
like super awkward. This size is super nice.
this has become so popular it's crazy man like
i think uh two years ago in the new york times
thanks to marty buckley's book marty buckley
she's like a food journalist that lives here
in san sebastian and she's been writing about
pinchos and bass food for decades her book wasn't
her book pinchos i think it was that one where
where the bass cheesecake is featured so it made
it to the new york times as iconic dessert of
the year i think two years ago It was already
insanely popular at the moment back then, but
now it's insane. I was in Japan and there were
bus cheesecakes all over the place. They love
that shit, yeah. It's like exploded. And interestingly
enough, as you know, this thing is 20 years old,
not older than that. And that is the most interesting
thing. I was telling this to a friend of mine
the other day. We were talking about people's
perception from the outside. what is traditional
what's not you know and he was like oh yeah the
best country amazing because i was telling him
i was going to come here it was like oh so much
like food tradition like this and that best cheesecake
and i was like ah but you know it's like really
interesting and how quickly something goes from
being something new to being so ingrained in
the culture because it makes so much sense it
fits to the cooking culture yeah i think this
is already a tradition a very young tradition
20 years is very very young for a tradition but
i think it already has a That level. So for example,
you say Catalan food. There are some things that
make Catalan different from the rest of Spain.
First thing that comes to my mind is maybe pine
nuts. You know, like they will add pine nuts
to some dishes. And for me, if I see that, I
know. Or Sicily, you know, you can feel Sicily
is different from the rest of Italy. Then I would
think about pine nuts and sardines again. And
lemon and I don't know, maybe some chilies or
I don't know. And in Basque food, there are also
these features that could be what we saw, codfish
for sure, grilling, the vegetables treatment.
And all of these things were there, but there
were not... You had to have some background knowledge
of what Basque cuisine is to understand that
that's 100 % Basque. Even though it's not obvious
or non -traditional for the untrained eye. That's
true. That's very true, yeah. yeah but like even
like with the texture of the sauces you know
it's just like you yeah you find it in like in
for example chinese cooking you find this like
gourmet approach to texture and this stickiness
that we had yesterday in some of the pil pil
sauces and also taking the concept of a pil pil
into like a non -traditional thing you know that's
super super genius and very modern and very new
like free but for sure 100 best yeah even like
just i mean this is a technique that comes from
originally from Mugaritz where they're like okay
how can we do the take the pilpil technique which
again if this is the first time you're ever listening
to us talk about pilpil which is a sauce emulsified
with fish gelatin usually from bacalao or from
cocochas with like very gelatinous fish and they
what they did is they made a very neutral stock
out of like salt -caught skins that they then
reduced to a certain brix to a certain density
that they can then use to make a pil -pil out
of basically anything, which is genius. And we
had pepper pil -pil, we had plain cod pil -pil,
there were different things. Chive pil -pil.
I think there were dishes that were good, very
good, but there were, for me, three dishes that
were mind -blowing, and that was for sure the
tip here. Tear peas, sorry. Tear peas. The guisantes
lagrimas, yeah. The tear -shaped peas. Baby peas.
Which are like caviar, like in this season. It's
a very short season. They're now in season. We're
going to try probably today as well and tomorrow
as well. Let's see. But he said he takes them
a little bit bigger so they're better for charcoal
grilling. And they were mixed with normal peas.
The whole thing binded together with a cod, pil
-pil. And yeah, as I said, this dish... I see
pretty clearly the reference to Mugaritz. 100%.
I don't know if the first version was made by
Paco Morales, but when I was there, Paco Morales
did a version that was named Dish of the Year.
This was back in 2005. And it's in the Chlorophyllia
book as well. It's one of the classics of Mugaritz.
Actually, when I worked at Mugaritz, we had a
dish that was almost like a lineage. You have
that dish that you're talking about. When I was
there, we had a dish of Quisantes Lagrimas that
were raw. And then we juiced peas and we thickened
it with inulina, which gives you this sort of
like almost like Nivea hand cream sort of texture.
And so it was a very similar presentation. It
was the peas bound together by this gel as like
a little bowl with garlic flowers on top. Garlic
flowers on top. I saw the garlic flowers and
I immediately identified the reference to Mugaritz.
Because we haven't even mentioned that this restaurant
belongs to the same restaurant group as Mugaritz
and that the head chef was head chef at Mugaritz.
So it stays. Everything under the same rooftop.
Yes. That was one. The other one was the tuna
belly, for sure. Oh, yeah. That was insane. It
was grilled, right? Very lightly grilled. Grilled
to perfection. But like pink, almost raw in the
middle. With roasted peppers and a very strong
sauce that felt like meat. The essence of the
red peppers, basically. Again, kind of bound
together by this pink peel sauce. A pink peel
with roasted peppers, yeah. like we would do
this pepper you i'm pretty sure they made it
with that as a stock yeah which was after you
roast the peppers until they're charcoal black
they were put into a big bowl as many as you
could and then covered with plastic foil like
three times yeah it has to be three times or
four or two otherwise the recipe doesn't work
and then you would take the whole a pepper and
open it and it would release this water yes that
would be strained and this is like a very subtle
water that tastes like roasted peppers we used
to do the same yeah we used to serve it with
a little like braised veal cheek which was like
a play on uh on like braised um sort of like
carreras with like pimiento and it was like so
amazing just like thick sweet umami juice with
the with the meat super super nice And then the
abanico ibérico. Oh yeah, that was really good
as well. Yeah, that was. So we were trying to
figure out what that cod was. And the actual
name is abanico. And it's a part of the belly.
On this side, this is from Joselito. And they
only produce a certain amount a year. And they
reserve it for very special clients, very special
restaurants. And Muka got like this lot. so they
they could get just for a specific period a year
the supply for for this piece of meat for me
it felt like a very fatty flank steak it felt
similar to that it felt braised you know like
in its own juice lots of wild mushrooms lots
of truffle nothing can go wrong with that absolutely
amazing it was so good but it was also cooked
to perfection yeah Yeah, I couldn't have enough
of that. I could go back and have like two more
of the bellies, two more of the... Easily, easily.
Yeah, desserts were also amazing. I mean, you
already mentioned the honey with Jerez vinegar
for the vanilla panna cotta. But also the peach
ice cream with the... Monastrell vinegar. Monastrell
vinegar. Lots of vinegars around the different
dishes. Yeah, he mentioned he likes to play around
with them. But it's so smart. And again, the
perfect simplicity is you make an ice cream.
It's very pure. It's very produce -focused. And
then you take another product, a very high -quality
product, and it just intrinsically makes sense.
The acidity that cuts through the sweetness,
but also this oxidative raisin flavor from the
monostral vinegar. It's absolutely perfect. It's
like a good... Vanilla or Fjordelatte ice cream
with exceptionally good balsamic vinegar. You
know, it just makes sense flavor -wise. Nothing
can go wrong with that. Yeah. Really, really
outstanding dinner and one of the best dining
experiences I've had in the last couple of years.
Yeah. Yeah, I could agree with that, actually.
Yeah. Also, for me, it's a very special moment,
company. Also, it was my birthday. They sent
me a birthday cake. Somebody told them it was
my birthday. You told them it was your birthday.
I did. I was like, oh, what a surprise. How did
you know? Oh, thank you. So what are the things
now that you're back? here that you have missed
most about San Sebastian and the bus country?
Well, I mean, I miss the countryside for sure.
It's just such a wild and pure environment. The
mixture of mountain and ocean is just fucking
amazing. You know, like people here take it for
granted. Even if you like step outside of the
airport in Bilbao, you know, and you take the
bus to San Sebastian, it's just like forest after
forest after forest. and you know cider factories
and this and that and rolling coastlines and
i mean the city is beautiful like it's not really
a city is it it's more like a town like a big
town small city somewhere in between yeah yeah
yeah but uh it feels just it's just the quality
of life is just very absolutely the food is great
the environment is good if you don't mind the
weather i personally love the weather here the
fact that it like is kind of a little bit wild
Like it'll be like this and then suddenly it'll
start storming and winding. It's just like raw,
you know, kind of reminds me. I always then have
to think of like the Basque seafaring people
just fucking, you know, going out into the world.
It's just raw. And I love that about this place.
Obviously, the food culture is, you know, super
unique. And I mean, we spoke about it yesterday
already a little bit. It's a food culture that
has shaped the way that like I cook and what
I find interesting and what I'm passionate about.
It's shaped it massively, massively. Same for
me. Same for me. There are many things of also
understanding the use of the produce and also
how to express the produce on a dish. Not necessarily,
for example, you don't need to roast almonds.
That's not the only way to put almonds on a dish.
You can put them fresh or you can put them white.
I would say if I had to use only one word to
describe Basque cuisine, I would say subtleness.
you know the salt level is low the the flavors
are there are just very few elements also the
the texture is very important it's pretty much
about texture more than flavor in many cases
and yeah not so much about trying to enhance
everything it's just to yeah letting it be you
know yeah yeah and that that takes a lot of balls
and it takes a lot of skill that a lot of young
chefs don't have you know it's often like i mean
even like i sometimes i fall into that trap where
i'm kind of like I'm working on something. I'm
like, oh, maybe this, maybe this herb, maybe
that. Maybe it's kind of like, well, maybe actually
you should just revisit it and take some stuff
away. But have the things that are there be really,
really good and harmonious. If you had to choose
one word for Basque cuisine, first thing that
comes to your mind is one. Pure. Pure. Okay,
good one. Nice. Yeah, and you? I said solumens.
Yeah. Yeah. I could say the same about high -end
Japanese cuisine. Yes. Absolutely. It's subtleness.
And you can see that in the rice, for example.
Rice appreciation is a subtleness appreciation.
Oh, yeah. 100%. 100%. It is really valuing a
product. And the fine tuning. The fine tuning
is what in French cooking... And that's something
you don't get the first time. No, no, no. You
need to get into it and dive into the rice. That's
what the high -level French chefs call la geste.
the gesture of how you do it like you know you
can you can cook rice a million different ways
but there's this one thing it's kind of like
how you wash it how you do this how you adjust
the fire how you how you look at it when you
pull it off how you fluff it not too much not
too little of everything just just exactly yeah
and that's like the difference and that's what
in like general spanish cooking i see a lot it's
like you know the example of making a tortilla
a tortilla is Potatoes, eggs, onions, yes or
no, you know, whatever, olive oil, salt. That's
it. Making a tortilla isn't the same as making
a tortilla. It's not the same as making a tortilla.
There are tortillas that are so extremely mediocre
that you wouldn't think about them twice. And
there are tortillas that are a culinary sensation.
And it's the same ingredients. The only difference
really is the gesture, the, you know, the handling.
And it's interesting, for example, one of the
best tortillas in town is Bar Antonio's tortilla,
right? Yes. And there's the original Bar Antonio
that is in City Center and the Boulevard Bar
Antonio. Okay. And both share the same recipe,
same owner, same thing. But I think they're both
slightly different. Oh, yeah. I wouldn't say
better or worse. They're just different. And
it's because of that, the gesture. Of course.
You know, like the little details that get into
the recipe of... It's everything. There are so
many variants. I remember Eckart Witzigmann once
saying that it's impossible to make a food algorithm.
And he said this many years ago. This man is
like 90 years old today. Because there are so
infinite variables. Yes. Or, for example, creating
a particular recipe, let's say, for a jus. Or
something like that. There are so many variables
in terms of the produce, in terms of the equipment
you're using. And everything determines how it
will end. And that's where the chef intuition
comes into play. 100%. I've always said this.
A lot of inexperienced chefs that, for example,
come to work with me, they go a little bit nuts
in the beginning. Because they're like, hey,
can I have a recipe for this? And I'm like, not
really. I can show you. And I will show you.
There's not really a recipe. And they're like,
oh, how can there not be a recipe? And I'm like,
well, you obviously don't get it. There's things
that you can have a recipe for. But there's some
things that you, to make it how it should be,
don't follow a recipe blindly because it's never
going to be that. How would you define intuition?
What's intuition for you? It's a mixture of experience
and lived passion for something. That's very
interesting because I've thought about this a
lot and I've actually had discussions, deep discussions
with Sandra about the topic. For example... i'm
talking right now right i'm formulating sentences
that make somehow sense so that's already intuition
into play you know like i'm not thinking about
what i'm going to say i'm just saying things
right like and there's like a but yet again there's
like a whole intellect behind it that is feeding
that intuition and allows me to formulate and
then cooking i guess is the same thing you know
you have You have to accumulate intellect, understand
things like theories about techniques and have
like a whole book of recipes in your head and
understand how different processes work and all
of these in order for you to culinarily speak.
you know like just flow yeah and absolutely freestyle
absolutely but at the same time you have to you
know when we say that cooking is emotional you
know we don't mean like oh i cook this it reminds
you of your grandma like blah blah blah of course
that's that can also be a part but like what
i feel like it is is that when you're making
something as what i just said it's like there's
a huge difference you can make two people can
make the same thing one person just does it the
other person really puts themselves into it and
there's no limit to how much love and care and
attention you can give to something of looking
at all the fine details of you know just trying
to coax out you know this like golden center
of things you know of everything of all these
variables you know it's like juggling five watermelons
and three knives you know in a way and sometimes
you catch them all sometimes you don't but when
you do catch them all and when you everything
all the planets align then you have something
sensational And I think that's this like passionate,
you know, living something, really living it,
really filling it out. Paired with the intellect,
like for me, that's what intuition and cooking
is. I saw this interview with Alchemist. He traveled
to Argentina. The interview was not with him,
was with a record store owner. he was djing for
Eminem when he went to Argentina to on his tour
and the man went into the record store and he
said give me all the local music you have and
the man was there like for 12 hours just next
record and he bought some records and he sampled
some Argentinian rock bands that were there just
there and no Argentinian hip -hop producer had
ever touched And he said something like, my job
is to recognize magic when I have it in front
of me. And that for me speaks very much about
an experienced chef when he recognizes this fine
tuning of this specific flavor, texture, or even
storytelling or whatever that makes a dish extraordinary,
like recognizing this, while others could just...
oversee it and just continue the way. Yeah. That's
what makes something magic. Absolutely. That's
it for this week's episode of Potluck Food Talks.
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