1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,120 Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:11,280 Today we're going to have a different kind of show. 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:17,200 I'll be the one who's going to be interviewed by Sandro Bartoli, our producer. 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:19,080 How are you doing, man? 5 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:20,200 I'm doing good. 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:27,840 I feel this is a long-awaited second part of an episode I did with Phil over a year 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:28,840 ago. 8 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,000 We called it Phil's Journey. 9 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,200 So I thought let's do the same with you. 10 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:39,840 Let's figure out how you went into the culinary world. 11 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,840 And yeah, I mean, I've known you for, what is it now, 33 years? 12 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:45,840 That long, wow. 13 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,560 And there's a lot I know about you, but maybe I can figure out something about you that 14 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:50,560 I didn't know before. 15 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:55,520 Well, actually, you played a role in the beginnings of my journey. 16 00:00:55,520 --> 00:01:00,160 It was like a turning point and it was like an afternoon. 17 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:08,080 I went to your place and we watched the premiere of the first episode of Iron Chef America, 18 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,440 which was with Wolfgang Puck. 19 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:11,440 Who else was there? 20 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:15,440 Mario Batali, the original Japanese Iron Chefs. 21 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,360 And that was super exciting. 22 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:24,720 I would say that was the beginning of my decision-taking process of becoming a professional chef. 23 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:30,940 Because you know, food has been very important in my place. 24 00:01:30,940 --> 00:01:33,640 My dad used to be the cook at home. 25 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:35,000 Yeah, man. 26 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:40,840 Let's talk a little bit about that because that's something I mean, I've tried to make 27 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:45,440 similar questions to what I did to Phil because I like a certain symmetry. 28 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:51,520 But something that is a certain symmetry with you and Phil is that food, cooking, and the 29 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,440 value of good food was very alive in your house. 30 00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:00,080 I know your dad, he used to cook a lot. 31 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,480 Ever since we were kids, we would go to your place. 32 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:07,440 I know every Saturday there was paella, every Sunday there was parrilla or the other way 33 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:08,440 around. 34 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:16,200 Do you think that that interest in or like that food culture at home is essential for 35 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:22,120 people that want to make cooking their profession? 36 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:27,320 Well yet at the same time, I have to say, well, I think it doesn't play a role really, because 37 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:36,020 I think there has been like amazing chefs that come from homes where food was crap. 38 00:02:36,020 --> 00:02:41,560 At the same time, there are also amazing chefs that come from homes where food was even more 39 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,560 important than at my place. 40 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:51,480 I would say people that grew up in the countryside, I believe they always have a better understanding 41 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:57,920 of food and cooking because it's like a more immersive part of their environment. 42 00:02:57,920 --> 00:03:01,640 I mean, you're more in connection with the production process of food. 43 00:03:01,640 --> 00:03:07,040 I think that's a key component of understanding food itself. 44 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:12,120 For example, when I was at culinary school or even in restaurants where I worked, every 45 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:16,040 time there was someone who grew up in the countryside, they had a better understanding 46 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:23,920 of, for example, the anatomy of animals when it comes to butchering or the different cuts 47 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:30,200 of animals or different varieties of products. 48 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,080 That wasn't the case at my place. 49 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:37,080 The experience of eating and about valuing like a culinary experience and the other thing 50 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:41,160 is like, you know, knowing how to like take apart a chicken and like where the bones are 51 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,360 and where the muscles are and where the fibers are and all that stuff. 52 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,360 And yet at the same time, there is also something important. 53 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:53,200 Well, as you perfectly know, I'm like a mixture of cultures. 54 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:58,280 My mother is Spanish, my father is German, and I was born and I grew up in Venezuela. 55 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:07,240 So every tradition I was taught, it was like already like a diluted or transformed tradition. 56 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:11,400 So the way we did paellas at home is not acceptable in Spain. 57 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:17,160 There were things that we would do in German cooking that are maybe not the most traditional 58 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:18,160 way. 59 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:23,560 So like we had this understanding of cooking, which is something I would say American. 60 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:30,140 When I say American is the whole continent, north, middle and south, because that's part 61 00:04:30,140 --> 00:04:31,720 of the nature of the continent. 62 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:38,320 It's a continent that was colonized by other cultures. 63 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:43,680 And so the result is a blend or something new, something different. 64 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:45,520 It doesn't respond to the original culture. 65 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:46,520 It's its own thing. 66 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:51,560 So if you see, I don't know, let's say pizzas in New York or in Argentina, they have a very 67 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:57,520 strong culture of pizzas and they're not necessarily the same pizzas you see in Italy, for example. 68 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:03,520 And you get to see those kinds of cases over and over again, all over the continent from 69 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:04,720 north to south. 70 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:06,520 And the same was at my place. 71 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,760 And also yet at the same time, I grew up in Venezuela, but we never ate traditional Venezuelan 72 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:12,760 food at home. 73 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:18,800 Well, I won't say never, but it was not like, for example, everyday breakfast was not arepas. 74 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:26,280 We would do arepas once in a while, because it's something, it would be okay to say you're 75 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:30,160 not 100% Venezuelan if you don't have arepas for breakfast every day. 76 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:31,160 And I agree with that. 77 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:35,360 And maybe I'm not 100% Venezuelan, you know? 78 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:45,960 And so all of these things played a part in my development of my understanding of food. 79 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:46,960 Yeah. 80 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:53,360 But like going back to your journey and your decision to fully immerse yourself in cooking 81 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:58,440 as your profession, because I know you've always been very creative. 82 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:05,800 I know at a very young age, you always were interested in film and illustration, photography. 83 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,400 You did a lot of street art, if you can say it like that. 84 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:14,260 You were in the graffiti scene in Venezuela. 85 00:06:14,260 --> 00:06:15,260 So why was it food? 86 00:06:15,260 --> 00:06:19,600 What was it about food where you said, okay, this is where I, you know how they say, find 87 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,240 your poison and let it kill you. 88 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:22,920 Why was food your poison? 89 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,280 I followed, I would say like a wrong hypothesis. 90 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:33,080 My hypothesis was if you learn how to cook, well, you can have a job anywhere in the world, 91 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:34,600 which is true. 92 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:39,740 But what is not true is that I thought this is a perfect thing so I can work as a chef 93 00:06:39,740 --> 00:06:45,600 and at the same time study filmmaking and cinema. 94 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:55,920 Well, that is not true at all because if you're studying cinema or if you get into filmmaking, 95 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:02,040 as you perfectly know, you're completely drawn into it. 96 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:07,320 This can be like a side activity that you do while you're doing something else. 97 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,820 And the same thing happens with cooking. 98 00:07:09,820 --> 00:07:11,280 So it had to be one or the other. 99 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:12,680 You can't have both. 100 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,840 At least I don't think you can. 101 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:20,800 You can't study medicine and work as a chef at the same time. 102 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:22,240 It doesn't work like that. 103 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:23,240 Of course. 104 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,480 So basically it was like the means to an end. 105 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,320 Yeah, originally it was like that. 106 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:33,440 But yet at the same time, I always had like this, I would obsess myself with stuff. 107 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:38,320 For example, when I got into the graffiti scene, I would obsess myself with it. 108 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,480 So I would become a nerd about it. 109 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,840 I would know all the graffiti writers all over the world and all the different styles 110 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:49,160 and the history of it and all the techniques and all these kinds of things. 111 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:50,640 Same happened with, I don't know. 112 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:59,000 I remember, for example, when I was a kid, I became obsessed with cartoons like Dragon 113 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:04,600 Ball and I would know everything about the history, who was the creator of it, what was 114 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:05,880 it behind the scenes. 115 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:07,080 I would read about it. 116 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,400 I would become really interested about it. 117 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:14,480 So I already had that background of those cases. 118 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:19,720 And when I became a chef, for me, it became really quick idea. 119 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:24,280 It became something natural to start researching like that. 120 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,880 Who are the best chefs in the world? 121 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,320 What happened in culinary history? 122 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,920 How did restaurants emerge out of where? 123 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,840 Yeah, I remember that we both had that very similar approach. 124 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,160 I would say we were Google junkies. 125 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,360 Google back in the days was fairly new. 126 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:48,360 And we both, when we liked something, we researched it to death. 127 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:49,560 I like this. 128 00:08:49,560 --> 00:08:50,560 Who's doing that? 129 00:08:50,560 --> 00:08:51,560 Who's doing more of that? 130 00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:54,020 Who are the best people doing this? 131 00:08:54,020 --> 00:08:58,840 What led them to become the best in doing the things that they're doing? 132 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:03,620 And I think that's the reason why we hung out so much because we were obsessed about 133 00:09:03,620 --> 00:09:05,360 similar things about directors. 134 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:06,840 Yeah, filmmaking, for example. 135 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,120 Artists and photographers and all that things. 136 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,600 And I remember you going down the cooking route to Chef Ralph. 137 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:18,120 You know a bunch of restaurants and you know about a bunch of cooks. 138 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:25,720 We would obsess about watching the Food Network and different shows like Iron Chef Japan and 139 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:27,800 then Iron Chef America. 140 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,480 Also something that played a role in that is I dropped school. 141 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:37,280 I was like, okay, this is not bringing me anywhere. 142 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:43,200 I had it pretty clear that I wanted to go into a filmmaking school or a graphic design 143 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:44,200 school. 144 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,120 That was my idea. 145 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:55,040 And I thought the sooner I start getting a job as a chef, I could start doing those kind 146 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:56,240 of things. 147 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:00,940 So I dropped school and I went directly into a culinary school. 148 00:10:00,940 --> 00:10:03,720 So I went to two culinary schools in Venezuela. 149 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:09,600 And in the meantime, I would research a lot about chefs, who are the best chefs in the 150 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:10,600 city? 151 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:11,600 What are the restaurants? 152 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:12,600 What are the backgrounds? 153 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:21,320 And Venezuela is especially Caracas is a city pretty much where a lot of people have a name 154 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:26,760 because they have been somewhere and they have worked with someone, especially in cooking. 155 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:36,040 Like this chef had worked with Ferran Adrià del Bulli or this other one worked with Daniel 156 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:37,800 Boulou in New York. 157 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,600 Those were actually the first chefs that I worked with. 158 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:46,720 At the same time, I was watching a lot of El Gourmet channel, which is kind of like 159 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,080 the equivalent to the Food Network for Latin America. 160 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:55,600 It was like an Argentinian channel, but with chefs from all over Latin America. 161 00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:00,680 And for me, my favorite chef of the channel was Sumito Estevez, a Venezuelan chef who 162 00:11:00,680 --> 00:11:04,840 happened to have a culinary school in Caracas. 163 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,680 So the first culinary school that I went, I didn't like it so much. 164 00:11:08,680 --> 00:11:11,040 It was more like not so professional. 165 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,520 Well, I don't know. 166 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:14,520 It was not my thing. 167 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:20,360 But then I went to Sumito's school and I liked that a lot more. 168 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:25,760 So they had like a two year program, but since I already had done like a year of basics in 169 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,720 a different school, they allowed me to start on the second year. 170 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:30,720 Started working there. 171 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:37,420 I started, sorry, and doing my internships in the evenings. 172 00:11:37,420 --> 00:11:43,920 So my first restaurant was Cafe Atlantique, which was one of the top restaurants in the 173 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:44,920 city. 174 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:45,920 Beautiful building. 175 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:51,880 My second chef was Laurent Cantino, who was a chef who learned like a French chef with 176 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,120 classic French training. 177 00:11:54,120 --> 00:12:02,400 And he used to be the head chef at Daniel Boulou in New York. 178 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,760 So I thought that was a good place to start. 179 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:05,760 Of course. 180 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:06,760 And it was. 181 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:11,200 Nowadays, looking back, it was not like a fine dining restaurant. 182 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,400 It was more like a brasserie. 183 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,200 Which is also a cool place to start. 184 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,440 You don't have to start like plating with tweezers and these kind of things. 185 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:28,480 I think it's a good place to start like doing classic bistro style cooking and delivering. 186 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,480 On the toughest evening, we would deliver up to 500 guests. 187 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:33,480 Oh wow. 188 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:34,480 Yeah. 189 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,200 So it was absolutely crazy sometimes. 190 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,800 So it was like a big dining room and they would like repeat seats. 191 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:42,560 Like somebody would stand up and they would. 192 00:12:42,560 --> 00:12:45,760 It was kind of like an expensive restaurant at the same time. 193 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,360 So the level was good, was high. 194 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:54,680 What I learned the most, and this is like an unfair advantage that you get if you grow 195 00:12:54,680 --> 00:13:00,640 up in a place like Caracas, it was how to work without resources. 196 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:05,740 So because there would be days where there was no oil in the whole city. 197 00:13:05,740 --> 00:13:10,600 So they would, I don't know, open some vegetables that were preserved in oil and stick the fish 198 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,880 inside and then throw it to a pan. 199 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:18,440 And this way of thinking of how to think around things and think out the box and diagonal 200 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:23,320 thinking that is natural to Venezuelans because you have to. 201 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:28,920 And the situation, perhaps someone who was born in Germany and grew up there where everything 202 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,720 works and everything has a reason of being. 203 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:34,800 There is no oil and it's a panic moment. 204 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:36,160 Like what do we do? 205 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:37,360 We have to close the restaurant. 206 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:38,360 That would never happen there. 207 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,280 No, because then the restaurants would never open because that's what you like. 208 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:43,280 Sometimes there's no fire. 209 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:44,280 There's no oil. 210 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:45,280 There's no electricity. 211 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,880 Like you have to figure it out. 212 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:48,880 Yeah. 213 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:55,200 And I remember these kinds of things, which are not the right way to cook, but it's like 214 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:56,840 a right approach to solve problem. 215 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:02,600 I remember I would see that a lot that there was this sous chef Ruben Dario Martinez, who 216 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,680 was like an excellent chef, and he would do these kinds of things. 217 00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:11,680 You know, like there was a day like the pastry chef was completely on panic and he was like, 218 00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:13,800 we ran out of coffee ice cream. 219 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:15,880 What should I do? 220 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:17,660 It's already sold to the table. 221 00:14:17,660 --> 00:14:19,400 Should we say there is no? 222 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,480 And the sous chef said, we never say there is no coffee ice cream if you already sold 223 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:24,480 it. 224 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:29,840 So he just without thinking, just like as a reflex kind of reaction, he just took vanilla 225 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:34,320 ice cream, two espressos, like he whipped it and he there's your coffee ice cream. 226 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,560 It took him 30 seconds to solve the problem, you know, and he would solve this kind of 227 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:39,560 problems. 228 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:40,560 Oh, there is no strainer. 229 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:45,240 Well, he would take a tray with holes and use it as a strainer, you know, like so and 230 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:53,400 these kinds of things of working without resources and how to solve things through the alternative 231 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:54,400 ways. 232 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:55,920 It's something I learned there. 233 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:05,720 My second restaurant was Malabar, who is probably maybe the best chef of that generation, who 234 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,520 is Carlos Garcia. 235 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:15,520 He's now a chef owner of Alto, which is maybe Venezuela's best restaurant in a while. 236 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,680 I know that there are some new restaurants in Caracas that I don't know that well, like 237 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:24,800 Cordero and some others, but for at least over a decade, that was a top restaurant in 238 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:29,160 Venezuela and one of the top restaurants in Latin America run by this guy, Carlos Garcia. 239 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,560 I worked there for a short while. 240 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,480 It didn't work well, so good for me. 241 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:40,880 And then I went back to the culinary school to work there, supporting events and courses, 242 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:45,520 which I learned a lot because there were like this special courses where there were like 243 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,440 guest chefs and I had to do all the mission plus, all the prep cooking and assist the 244 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:50,960 chef during the courses. 245 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,760 So I also learned a lot there. 246 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:59,240 And then I did like a short internship in a chocolate factory, like in a chocolate shop 247 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:06,000 with Maria Fernanda Di Giacobbe, who is a recipient of the Basque Culinary World Prize. 248 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,400 And I learned how to work chocolate there. 249 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:15,640 And after that background, like I already had worked in all the stations, like fish, 250 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,280 meats, starters, pastry, chocolate. 251 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:22,400 I thought I was ready to do internships abroad. 252 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,560 Like why did you decide to leave Venezuela? 253 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:30,680 Like what was your motivation to go to like, we all know and people who know the show know 254 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:37,480 that you started working at Mugaritz at a very early age and you've told a lot of stories 255 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:38,480 about that. 256 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,440 But like, what was your motivation to go there? 257 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,920 And what was your reaction after having been in like several different restaurants and 258 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:47,920 culinary school? 259 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:53,040 What was your biggest like, what the fuck about like that world compared to the previous 260 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:54,160 restaurants you've been in? 261 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,280 So my goal was to go to Europe and work in Michelin star restaurants. 262 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:03,560 Where there was like this, maybe Europe, maybe United States, but I wanted to go like to 263 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,760 very high level restaurants. 264 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:08,960 But then this was 2005. 265 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,800 So Spain was a place to go. 266 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:16,200 It was a peak moment of Spanish avant-garde. 267 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:24,160 El Bulli was at its peak and all the restaurants that were following that wave as well. 268 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:29,440 So like, and everybody was talking about, look what Ferran did, look what this other 269 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,600 chef did and so on. 270 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:39,040 Just by chance one day at culinary school, it was, I think I was already working at events 271 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,160 or I don't remember, maybe I was still studying. 272 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:42,160 I don't remember. 273 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:48,960 But in that case there was like this draft where I won and I won a ticket to this conference. 274 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:50,320 And this was Andoni speaking. 275 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,960 He was invited to the international gastronomy event in Caracas. 276 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:58,120 So he gave a speech and for me it was like a very interesting chef and everything. 277 00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:00,200 He also went to the restaurant where I was working. 278 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:01,720 I was working at Cafe Atlantique. 279 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:03,560 So then for sure I was still studying. 280 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:08,840 And he was presented as, look who came here, this guy is super important and so on. 281 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:10,920 And I had no idea who he was up to that point. 282 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,160 You know, like he was just like a... 283 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,280 When I worked in Atlantique, there were a lot of international chefs that would go there 284 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,560 and do pop-up dinners and this kind of thing. 285 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:25,280 So for me he was just one more and I had no real background about like what they were 286 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:26,280 doing. 287 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,000 It's crazy because I remember all these stories, like as I was living in Venezuela and we would 288 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,960 just hang out, you would tell me, oh, there's this Spanish guy who came or like all these 289 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:34,960 things. 290 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,960 And it's now that I'm realizing, you know, the importance maybe that all these people 291 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:41,280 were going to these restaurants. 292 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:46,120 Like I didn't know the importance of Atlantique or those restaurants that you were working 293 00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:47,120 at. 294 00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:48,120 Yeah. 295 00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:52,240 And the thing that, you know, like, ah, I got this ticket to a conference and suddenly 296 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,400 that changed the whole course of my life. 297 00:18:55,400 --> 00:19:00,120 I had this idea, like, I don't know, I was 18, 19 years old. 298 00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:04,640 So my idea was I wanted to go to a one-star restaurant, after that to a two-star restaurant 299 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,080 and after that to a three-star restaurant. 300 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,360 That was my project, my roadmap. 301 00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:13,360 I would take the mission guide and I would Google all the restaurants and see their web 302 00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:17,040 pages and their dishes and what they were doing. 303 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:22,800 So basically what I did is I wrote all the one-star restaurants in Spain back then, which 304 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,240 were like, I don't know, a hundred restaurants maybe. 305 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:26,240 I wrote. 306 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:27,240 So literally just the one-star. 307 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,960 You just skipped the two and the three, just the one-star. 308 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:31,280 All of them. 309 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:32,980 Like everything is one of them. 310 00:19:32,980 --> 00:19:38,320 So some never answered, some answered like really like a lot later. 311 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,360 Some answered, but Mugari answered the next day. 312 00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:47,120 And also it was the most structured and formal answer. 313 00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:49,520 Like all the other answers were like, ah, yeah, whatever. 314 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:50,520 Yeah, sure. 315 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:51,520 Let's do it. 316 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:52,520 You want to come? 317 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:54,240 That kind of answer, you know? 318 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,800 They sent me a list, like a long checklist of everything I had to consider before going 319 00:19:58,800 --> 00:19:59,800 there. 320 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:07,080 How many, you know, underwear I had to bring with me, like what had to be in my chef case, 321 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,120 personal item I had to bring. 322 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:13,160 Like I had to consider how much money I would spend every month. 323 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:17,720 And when I saw that, I thought it was like, this has to be the place, you know? 324 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:23,480 It also taught me how important it is, like a first impression that you give with an email 325 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,680 and the formality of approaching. 326 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:30,720 And even being at the receiving end, you're this little kid who's like asking for a job 327 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:37,000 and the fact that they take the time and effort to reply a proper email 24 hours later. 328 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:43,080 And also, like, this is something that I'm still asked about, like, and what do you think 329 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,160 about working for free in these kind of places? 330 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:53,360 And for me, like it's something, I mean, for me, it would be a joke to ask them to pay 331 00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:55,040 me because I was 19 years old. 332 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:56,960 I was going to this great restaurant. 333 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:58,880 I had no experience. 334 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,280 I was going there to learn. 335 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:07,640 And they gave, they offered me accommodation and food. 336 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,920 And for me, that was a great deal for me. 337 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:12,400 And the patience to teach you. 338 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:17,800 I mean, like, I know you've talked a lot about, like, you could ask a billion times, you know, 339 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,400 every time you ask, they would like show you again and teach you again. 340 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,600 And you know, in the professional world, it's not a given. 341 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,520 Like professionals are busy and they're doing their thing. 342 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:32,760 And if there's, you know, like this kid and an intern asking, asking, asking, not everyone 343 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,280 takes the time and effort to teach. 344 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:40,280 And still today, I would say it was probably the most important professional experience 345 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:47,240 I had, you know, like, and for me, that's way more valuable than the couple of hundreds 346 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:54,720 that they would have paid me some other place for being an intern, you know, like, and I 347 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,080 think that that's the... 348 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:01,400 I also have to say that there are levels, you know, like, I understand that if you're 349 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:07,360 doing an internship at a school cafeteria and you want to be paid, I do understand that. 350 00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:11,800 For me, I always did the comparison that if you want to become a filmmaker and you get 351 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:19,600 the opportunity to go to a set where Martin Scorsese is shooting, even if you're just 352 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:28,760 bringing coffee to the director or carrying cables, that's an incredible lifetime opportunity. 353 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:34,760 And if you don't see that, you paid to do that, well, good for you. 354 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:36,720 Like I would do that for free even today. 355 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:44,440 Like even today, I would go and carry cables at a Martin Scorsese set for sure I would, 356 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:45,440 you know. 357 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,320 Especially if you're in a position that you want to learn, that you need to learn, where 358 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,400 experience is worth more than anything else. 359 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,960 Because yeah, eventually you'll grow to be a professional, you'll, you know, do your 360 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:57,960 things. 361 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:02,320 And yes, I guess at a certain age, it's like, it's not like Martin Scorsese can do movies 362 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:07,440 for free because every grip and every lightning person and every, you know, cinematographer 363 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:08,840 is going to work free for them. 364 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,720 But like if you're a kid and you're learning, of course, take the opportunity. 365 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:18,160 And yeah, also back then I was really influenced by Charlie Trotters and it's also a place 366 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,240 I consider to go, which was also back then one of the best restaurants in the world. 367 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,720 Maybe, maybe already a bit outdated. 368 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,600 I think that was one of the best restaurants in the world in the, in the nineties. 369 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:33,360 There it was already like a, like an OG kind of best restaurant in the world. 370 00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:37,960 And I would read a lot of interviews with him, also interviews with Ferran. 371 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:43,680 And something that influenced me from Charlie Trotters is he would say like, stay somewhere 372 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,600 until you feel that you learned everything and then leave and go somewhere else and do 373 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:48,640 the same. 374 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,840 And that was kind of my journey back then. 375 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:56,400 Starting in Caracas already, I would be in restaurants or places until I thought, okay, 376 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:01,560 I already, for example, in this first place, Cafe Atlantique, even though I was an apprentice, 377 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:06,720 I could cook all the stations and same in the event place and the chocolate. 378 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:12,640 I also have to say that back then I was like a absolutely messy apprentice looking back 379 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:13,640 to. 380 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:21,040 I'm not portraying me as like a gifted kind of young chef at all. 381 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:22,920 And in any case, so what happened? 382 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,880 Well, my experience in Mugaris was amazing. 383 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,560 I could not understand how it had like one star. 384 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:34,640 I could not understand how there could be something where they would strive to perfection 385 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,680 more than what they were doing there. 386 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:42,160 Like, okay, if this is one, what would be two or three? 387 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:47,920 What I learned with the years and you can go and check out the episode, Chef Journey 388 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:55,440 with Ivan Brehm and some other episodes after you leave Mugaris, there is this kind of post 389 00:24:55,440 --> 00:25:02,120 traumatic experience or I don't know how to define it where you're expecting the way of 390 00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:06,600 doing things that you see there to find that anywhere else. 391 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,040 And that's not the case. 392 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:13,320 So there can be two or three star restaurants that have two or three star for other reasons, 393 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,800 but not because they're also as methodological. 394 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,240 Not because they're as... 395 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:22,000 Yeah, or as perfectionist or not in that way, because of course you have to be perfectionist 396 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,080 to have two or three stars. 397 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:29,600 But the way of doing things, of teaching, of thinking, of talking, of many, many things, 398 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,440 it's something very, very, very difficult to find anywhere else. 399 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:33,440 Still today, I would say. 400 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:40,720 Was Mugaris the place that taught you there's a life in gastronomy that goes... 401 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,200 You started this as a means to an end. 402 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,520 Was Mugaris the place that taught you, okay, there's a career, there's something more that 403 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:48,840 I want to accomplish in this world? 404 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:54,040 I think that already happened in Caracas. 405 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:55,680 In Caracas, I already decided. 406 00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:04,520 My plan was somehow, I told you at the beginning that it's very common to be someone in Caracas 407 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:05,520 that you go... 408 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,400 Well, all of the great chefs in Caracas back then, it would be like, ah, this one worked 409 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:15,200 with Charlie Trotters, this one worked with Adel Bougie, this one worked with blah, blah, 410 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:16,200 blah. 411 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:21,200 So my goal was to be, at the very beginning, it was like that, okay, I want to go to Europe, 412 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:28,320 work with some great chefs and come back and have already that credential to open something 413 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:29,320 or whatever. 414 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:30,600 So that was already my goal. 415 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,760 I already was sucked into it. 416 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:41,120 I don't remember that there was a specific aha moment when I said, ah, this is what I 417 00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:42,120 want to do. 418 00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:48,040 It was more like something that just happened gradually and I never realized when it happened. 419 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:52,200 And then I remember that he went to a couple of the really big restaurants, like after 420 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,720 Mugaritz, you went to another three-star restaurant. 421 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:56,720 That was the thing. 422 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,680 Since I already had... 423 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:03,360 While I was in Mugaritz, they got their second star, which was also an amazing experience. 424 00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:04,480 And then he walked into the room. 425 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,880 He was talking on the phone very loud. 426 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,080 It felt like he wanted everybody to listen. 427 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,360 Ah, okay, yeah, yeah, good, good, thank you. 428 00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:13,360 Thank you for the good news. 429 00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:15,040 And he hangs up the phone. 430 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:22,240 We were all having our staff meal and he said, we just got our second star. 431 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,840 So he walked into his office. 432 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,040 Everybody was quiet. 433 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:32,360 And then all the chef de patti, they all stood up and walked into Andoni's office. 434 00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:34,360 Yeah, and it was amazing. 435 00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:38,760 Martin Berasategui came, like a lot of chefs came. 436 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,760 There were pictures with the whole team, the whole thing. 437 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,360 And for me, it was like, okay, double check. 438 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:46,400 One star check, two stars check. 439 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,920 I should go to a three star now. 440 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:55,120 And then just to skip a little bit ahead, because I think that's also an interesting 441 00:27:55,120 --> 00:28:00,220 moment where you said, okay, you did your journey as an apprentice. 442 00:28:00,220 --> 00:28:05,140 And then you came to Berlin and you wanted to open your own restaurant. 443 00:28:05,140 --> 00:28:07,160 How much of a goal was that? 444 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,720 Not just opening a restaurant, but then eventually also having your own star at some point. 445 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,840 Were your ambitions back there? 446 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,640 What was your goal at that point when you decided to come to Berlin? 447 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:26,080 Yeah, from a very early moment, I decided my ambition was never to make a star restaurant, 448 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:32,800 because that just doesn't represent the way I think or the way I am or the way I understand 449 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,280 food, at least back then. 450 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:39,880 I don't know if I were a millionaire and I could spend money and resources today. 451 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,480 I still think it wouldn't be the case. 452 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:51,320 I remember I was a bit jealous of, especially, I worked in Mugaris and I worked in a Racoa 453 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,720 Canfabas, which was a three star restaurant. 454 00:28:54,720 --> 00:29:04,540 In both places, we would work 13 to 16 hours a day having, for example, just one day off 455 00:29:04,540 --> 00:29:05,540 and two halves. 456 00:29:05,540 --> 00:29:11,520 For example, one day the whole day off and the other two days, just half day off. 457 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:12,520 That kind of working. 458 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:20,200 Then I would be really envious, jealous when I would see people working at normal tapas 459 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,640 bars or pincho bars. 460 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,880 It would be like, look at these guys. 461 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,480 They probably work just eight hours a day. 462 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,480 They're doing fucking delicious food. 463 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,040 Also technically, nice food. 464 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,880 This is not just putting ham on bread. 465 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:45,480 Also everything is more relaxed in terms of discipline and this whole military approach 466 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:52,520 to work and almost religious approach to work, which is something that Charlie Trotter would 467 00:29:52,520 --> 00:30:00,760 say that you have to work, like in my residence, I want people to approach work with a religious 468 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:01,760 view. 469 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,400 It's almost like a sect, pretty much. 470 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,320 You get to see that over and over and over again and start restaurants. 471 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:16,200 For me, that was perfect to go there to learn and to develop myself as a chef, but it was 472 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,520 never my goal to start a business like that. 473 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:20,520 It's like- 474 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,520 You didn't want to create your own sect. 475 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,280 No, not at all. 476 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:31,320 I wanted to create a normal place where people go to work and execute their thing and go 477 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,280 home and relax. 478 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:34,280 That's it. 479 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:41,360 Then you started working in tapas bars in Berlin, I remember, which was fucking delicious. 480 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,480 I loved going to visit you. 481 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,760 Actually, my original idea, as you perfectly know, because you were a part of that idea, 482 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,000 you would be my business partner, I think was to open a pizzeria because for me that 483 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:54,800 was an excellent idea. 484 00:30:54,800 --> 00:31:01,720 I worked in... I forgot to say, I also had a formal training in bakery and bread making 485 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,280 in Venezuela. 486 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:12,240 I understand how to formulate doughs and how to make bread. 487 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,440 For me that was like, oh man, a pizzeria? 488 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,040 That's a dream job for me back then. 489 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,960 There are few elements in the mission class. 490 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,120 Something amazing, incredible. 491 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,560 It's easy to train. 492 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,560 People are happy about it. 493 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,240 It's super important. 494 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:35,160 That's a business model that would represent me pretty much. 495 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:43,760 I went to Berlin with the idea of opening a pizzeria, but that never worked. 496 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:44,920 I was pretty young. 497 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:50,040 I didn't know how to make a business plan, how to get a loan. 498 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:55,280 There was a lot of information I didn't have for a long time. 499 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,120 It was also pretty difficult to learn these things while working at the same time. 500 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:05,080 Also, Berlin is a city where the night scene sucks you in and then spits you out every 501 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:06,080 night. 502 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,120 Oh yeah, for sure. 503 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,660 We've talked about this so many times and it's still a thing. 504 00:32:10,660 --> 00:32:15,560 People come here and they live here in this weird limbo for two or three years and then 505 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:21,640 they have to leave because the city sucks your soul dry. 506 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,760 Not everyone, but a lot of people. 507 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:24,760 That never worked. 508 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:25,760 Exactly. 509 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,800 That also happened to me after eight years. 510 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,840 I was completely like I couldn't take it anymore. 511 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:32,000 Yeah, I remember. 512 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:33,520 You were dry. 513 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,760 I think you lost all sorts of ambition. 514 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:42,880 You were a little bit asleep because you had good jobs in these Spanish tapas bars that 515 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:48,720 were easy, quote unquote, but you were a little bit not there anymore. 516 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,240 You didn't have that fire that you used to have. 517 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,520 No, exactly. 518 00:32:53,520 --> 00:33:00,360 Then I was looking for... I would take whatever boat would take me away from that. 519 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:09,480 Then suddenly, there was this friend that went with me to Mugaritz at the very beginning. 520 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:18,040 Then he went to Copenhagen and he was recruited as the director of this project, a project 521 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:25,520 by Klaus Meyer who was the main investor and maybe the philosophical architect of Noma 522 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,200 in Copenhagen. 523 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:33,480 He opened this restaurant in Bolivia with the ambition of doing the same he did in Denmark, 524 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:39,280 which was creating a whole movement and transforming the way of eating of a whole region, a whole 525 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:40,280 country. 526 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,200 He opened Gusto in Bolivia. 527 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:49,440 They actually called me at the beginning of the project to open the restaurant and I flirted 528 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:50,440 with the idea. 529 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:55,480 I was even almost prepared to go, but I didn't. 530 00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:00,360 I went there, I think three or four years later after the restaurant opened. 531 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:05,360 The restaurant was already three or four years and they recruited me to lead the culinary 532 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:06,360 lab there. 533 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:12,920 Right, because it was the first time you didn't work as a chef on the cooking side of the 534 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:13,920 restaurant, but more on the... 535 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,280 Exactly. 536 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,960 I would say that's how I left the line. 537 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:20,960 I never went back. 538 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,480 Well, I went back to the line just for an opening in 2020. 539 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,200 This was around 2015. 540 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:34,520 Around in 2020, I opened a restaurant for five months or so as a head chef and that 541 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:35,520 was it. 542 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,280 But it was still a restaurant as far as I understand it. 543 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:48,080 I was heavily focused on research development and the lab science part of food, wasn't it? 544 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:49,080 Which one? 545 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:50,080 The one that I opened? 546 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:51,800 Yeah, like the Labet, wasn't it? 547 00:34:51,800 --> 00:35:00,760 No, no, but it also had that, but what I did was a normal chef job with the normal tasks 548 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:07,680 that you have in opening a restaurant and training a team and those kinds of things. 549 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,400 But just to set that up so everyone understands, so you did a couple of years in Bolivia. 550 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,720 I think it was two or three years in Bolivia. 551 00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:20,240 And then I think you got a little bit tired of living in such a remote place and you got 552 00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:26,240 lured back to Spain to start working at the Basque Culinary Center, if I'm not mistaken. 553 00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:33,280 Like I was first sent on a mission to the Basque Culinary Center to learn how to ferment 554 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,600 stuff with Diego Prado. 555 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:41,200 Diego Prado was leading back then the Basque Culinary Lab. 556 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,360 So they sent me there to do a month training. 557 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:50,320 So I stayed at Diego's place and I worked with him at the lab. 558 00:35:50,320 --> 00:36:00,240 I learned how to produce vinegar, koji, cider, tempe, anything that soy sauce, miso, all 559 00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:02,160 this kind of stuff. 560 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:09,760 And then I went back to Bolivia and we developed those kinds of things with Andean pseudo cereals 561 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:18,640 like quinoa and caniwa and lupine and those kinds of produce, which was an amazing experience. 562 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:20,880 They liked me at the Basque Culinary Center. 563 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,120 So like half a year later or so they called me. 564 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,280 There was a position and I took it. 565 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,200 And this is the part where I ask you because I never fully understand what your position 566 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:32,200 is there. 567 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,880 Like what is your position at the Basque Culinary Center? 568 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,680 Yeah, well, it started as a food product developer. 569 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:45,000 So at the beginning in the R&D department, imagine whatever you see at the supermarket, 570 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:50,200 you call it cookies or sauces or whatever, those kinds of things are developed in a culinary 571 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,360 lab first as a prototype. 572 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,680 And then they're sent to a factory where they're scaled up. 573 00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:02,240 But those recipes are not made by the engineers or on a factory, like the recipe. 574 00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:07,600 Then that's also something very complex because these prototypes that you send to a factory, 575 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:13,080 they have to be rewritten and redesigned to scale them up. 576 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:14,640 It's never like a one-to-one thing. 577 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,000 It's not like, ah, you multiply all the ingredients times 10 and then it works. 578 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,000 It doesn't work like that. 579 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:24,960 Also, the equipment you're using, everything has to be fine-tuned when it comes. 580 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:30,480 But that prototyping phase is among many of the things what we would do, but it would 581 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,080 be anything that required a chef's knowledge. 582 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,600 So be it that kind of thing. 583 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:43,360 One of the very first projects that I worked in was a client asked us to develop like conceptualized 584 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,360 culinary AI. 585 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,080 So what should the system know when understanding? 586 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,720 That was extremely interesting for me. 587 00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:55,480 So I thought that intersection... 588 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:56,480 And that was several years ago. 589 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,480 No, that was way before this AI boom that we're having right now. 590 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,280 Yeah, this was back in 2018. 591 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:08,120 That intersection of food and digital innovation or digital transformation turned out to be 592 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,880 extremely interesting for me. 593 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:19,320 So there was like this new knowledge area that was opened at the R&D center for digital 594 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:20,320 innovation. 595 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:25,000 I found my way to get transferred to that one, which is what I do now. 596 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:32,680 So basically, we develop any kind of solution at the intersection of food and digital. 597 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,640 It could be software or hardware. 598 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:41,800 And similar to what I explained about prototype that is then scaled up on the food section, 599 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,440 same thing is what we do with the digital stuff. 600 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:50,520 So we don't, for example, we don't develop an end usable software product. 601 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:55,960 We develop a prototype, something that is already tested and validated by users. 602 00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:02,760 And then it's ready to be codified by a software company that can whatever, scale it up, produce 603 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:04,320 it, commercialize it, et cetera. 604 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:10,400 So we just conceptualize and validate stuff that is ready to be transferred to the market 605 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:16,680 because we can't, even if we wanted, commercialize these things because that's not our role. 606 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,000 Our role is just developing and transferring knowledge. 607 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:26,560 What I think is super interesting about your journey, I feel like you finally came full 608 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:27,560 circle. 609 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:34,880 You know, like you started being a chef and going through the culinary route and you still 610 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:42,320 had like all these other interests, like arts, like illustration, music, technology. 611 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:48,920 And you did briefly even study media design or something like that here in Berlin while 612 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,480 you're still working at a restaurant. 613 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,320 And I feel like now you finally come full circle. 614 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,760 Like you're immersed in food, but you're also doing like all these other interests that 615 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:01,440 you have. 616 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:06,400 And I'm sure 20 years ago when you started this journey, you wouldn't even know that 617 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,060 you would land here. 618 00:40:08,060 --> 00:40:16,360 So if there was one advice or like one thing you could like tell your younger self about 619 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:22,520 this crazy journey, is there something you could tell? 620 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,880 Like something like, hey, don't worry, just like, you know, do your shit, like learn your 621 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:27,880 stuff and... 622 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:35,200 Yeah, like find what you love and let it kill you basically. 623 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:41,040 I mean, like if there is something you like doing, just follow that rabbit hole. 624 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,840 It will bring you somewhere eventually, you know? 625 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:44,960 Yeah, yeah. 626 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,760 And like putting together like all these different things. 627 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,440 And I think that's something very modern. 628 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:55,320 I feel back in the days, like 20, 30, 40 years ago, you would study like one thing and you 629 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,520 would be a doctor, an architect, an economist, whatever. 630 00:40:58,520 --> 00:40:59,520 And you would do that. 631 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,160 Like nowadays you can be a hybrid. 632 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,120 You can be a cook, technologist, artist, whatever. 633 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,760 Yeah, this is just one of the many things I do, you know, like working at the R&D center 634 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:10,920 of the Vasco Linieri Center. 635 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:12,240 I also have this podcast. 636 00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:16,800 I also started giving food tours, which is also like a super interesting experience that 637 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:24,560 also where I also take advantage of all my food knowledge, you know, like that most food 638 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:30,800 tour guides are people that study tourism and they understand how to operate and these 639 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,080 kinds of things. 640 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:40,040 But none of them can beat me in chef knowledge because I was a chef for 10 years in restaurants 641 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,920 plus five years in R&D. 642 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:49,040 I'm still kind of like a nerd of understanding how did the food scene in the city develop 643 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:54,720 and the history of every single chef and every single restaurant and every single dish. 644 00:41:54,720 --> 00:42:01,760 And that's something, you know, it's very hard for you to catch me off guard with a 645 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:08,520 question regarding those topics, like most things I can answer right away. 646 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:12,040 And yeah, that's also something I didn't expect ever doing. 647 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:13,800 And it's super fun. 648 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:18,880 And what's interesting, there's this conversation, I'm going to bring it up here, is that you 649 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:23,160 don't see yourself as a chef or you don't see yourself as chef anymore. 650 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:27,480 I don't know if that's something about like the fact that you haven't worked in the kitchen 651 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:32,600 in a way and you don't feel comfortable or if it's tied to your identity, that maybe 652 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:38,560 even though you have the formation as a chef, you don't necessarily see yourself as a chef. 653 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:39,560 Yeah. 654 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:44,480 I don't see myself as a chef and I wouldn't present myself as a chef, first of all, because 655 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:50,640 I hadn't delivered like a professional dinner in years, you know, like that on one side, 656 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:55,720 on the other side, there is a conflict, I think, between British English and American 657 00:42:55,720 --> 00:42:56,720 English. 658 00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:01,200 I don't know which one is the difference between a cook and a chef. 659 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:02,200 And you have the same in Spanish. 660 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:07,520 A chef is a chef, is a chef of the restaurant, is the one who's running the team, is a boss. 661 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:08,520 Okay. 662 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,840 And for me, that's a title that I take with tweezers, you know, like I don't want to go 663 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,040 around tagging myself as a... 664 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,360 A lot of people do, you know, they call themselves chefs because they went to culinary schools 665 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,360 and they have never led a team. 666 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:26,440 And I don't want to be that person, you know, like I'm perfectly okay. 667 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,720 I consider myself a cook. 668 00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:30,360 I know how to cook. 669 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:36,120 You could put me on the line and probably nowadays I would be like a very messy cook 670 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:41,320 on the line because I'm not trained, you know, like, and this kind of stuff requires like 671 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:46,960 a lot of discipline and structure in the way you do things. 672 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:51,360 And that's something I lost because I'm not trained, you know, like anymore. 673 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,160 Like I'm out of practice. 674 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:57,320 I would have to train and get there again. 675 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,540 And especially I don't have the interest anymore, you know, like for me, my dream job would 676 00:44:01,540 --> 00:44:06,080 be maybe as a chef, I mean, like would be something where I could, let's say, cook 677 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:07,080 something. 678 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:14,040 I own a restaurant and I go and deliver service one or two days a week, but that just doesn't 679 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:15,040 exist. 680 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:21,160 It just doesn't work like that, you know, like, and in terms of team dynamics, that 681 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:22,880 doesn't work like that. 682 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:23,880 That wouldn't work. 683 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,120 You can't just come in and say like, okay, guys, we're going to cook something. 684 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:28,120 Yeah, exactly. 685 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:33,040 Like, for example, for me, it was very interesting, the interview I did to Santiago Fernandez in 686 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:38,960 Tokyo where he talks about the work ethics in Japan where a chef is the one that has 687 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,640 to come first and leave last at work. 688 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:48,480 You know, like, I think that that's the way that's a chef, you know, like that. 689 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:55,440 That's why I avoid using that title. 690 00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,560 That's it for this week's episode of Potluck Food Talks. 691 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,400 If you like what we're doing, make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss 692 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:03,680 an episode. 693 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,680 You can also find us on Instagram and TikTok as Potluck Food Talks. 694 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:32,880 The show airs every Monday.