Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks.
My name is Eric, I'm here with my man Phil.
Is this the first time I say my name at the intro?
I think it is.
And we're going to talk about humor in food.
So Phil, what are your thoughts about incorporating humorous elements into food slash dining?
Do you think it's bullshit?
Do you think it's something that can enhance an experience?
Do you think it's something that can be balanced?
Too little is boring, too much is exhausting.
What is even humor in food?
Yeah, that's what I'm asking myself right now.
I have no idea what you mean.
What's humor?
Like tickets using an ice cream cart and coming by the table and serving your sorbet or your ice cream out of an ice cream cart.
Like those sorts of things.
Yeah, exactly.
I would say the first thing that comes to my mind when I think of humor in a dining experience,
it's el buyi and actually pretty old dishes from el buyi.
I guess doing that, you know, the menestra de verdura?
Yes.
I think like creating a dish where like a very classical dish of cooked beetroot and sweet peas and I don't know what else,
like vegetables that are usually savory and presenting them in shapes of ice cream or foams or things that are usually sweet, those textures.
And getting to see something like that, I can imagine that having something like that in the early 90s has to be really shocking, you know, like really like what the fuck is this?
And I think that whole movement, that whole wave of the Spanish avant-garde that was led by el buyi, I can think of the Roca brothers, I can think of Mugari.
Even Arsak or of course Arsak would have like this playful elements.
What are your thoughts on that?
Can you think of like an experience you had like in a restaurant where there was something humorous or funny that you find it to be brilliant?
Or is it more like when you see this kind of thing, you go like, this is bullshit?
I think it's a little bit of both.
I think it really depends how it's done.
I don't think I've had so many experiences in that regard, but that's also because I usually go to different restaurants.
But I also think like now, like kind of thinking about it, I'm imagining it's like, where do you draw the line?
Like what is fun, right?
So I think like, for example, you said the Roca brothers, when I see what like Jordi Roca does and the way that he kind of adds these sorts of like playful elements to his dishes and to the experience, I think it's amazing.
Just like how I, when I look at el buyi's approach, I think it's amazing.
Can you mention one or more examples of the Roca brothers or Jordi Roca, like a dish that caught your attention?
So this dish that's like super famous is like viral.
I think it's like eucalyptus, just like foam.
It's like a cloud that kind of like grows and then they cut it off and it kind of like juggle it with a palette knife and it kind of floats through the air.
And they juggle it to a stand that's in front of you and they place it right on it and then you eat it somehow.
I hadn't seen that dish, but I find it to be incredibly interesting.
You have to like, I feel like for sure you've seen it.
It's insane.
Like the first time I saw it, I was like, you know, this is, it's not my style of food.
I really would want to go to say a de Can Roca because I'm sure it's amazing and delicious and stuff as well as really innovative and playful.
And normally like gimmicky things are not so much my thing.
I'm more for like the nitty gritty down to earth crafty cooking, you know.
Anyway, when I saw that, when I saw that, I was like, what the fuck is going on?
But for example, don't you think that a Fregis Henderson can be humorous with his approach?
A hundred percent.
And actually I thought of a example that I've experienced with him where that was exactly the case.
Because I mean, like what is like humorous or fun?
Like where does it come from?
It often comes from an interaction.
And there can be a lot of things.
But for example, I had one of the best meals in London was one of my it was for my birthday.
It was a bread and wine, St. John bread and wine.
And we had a venison and trotter pie for main course to share between two people.
And just the act of like this like perfectly made, super rustic, but gorgeous pie coming.
And you're like one person takes the charge.
You're cutting the pastry.
You're like breaking it open.
The steam comes out.
You're like, oh, amazing.
You know, oh, here, there.
You serve it out.
It's really beautiful.
And that's for me is fun.
Or like if you get like an amazing like, you know, PTVA or something like that, or you have a whole chicken in a liqueur set with hay sealed with bread.
And that comes and everybody's like, oh, cool.
You break it open.
You take the lid off.
Steam comes out.
You smell the hay.
Like so dislike dislike interaction and getting involved with things.
I think that is what is really, really fun.
Yeah.
But I think you find also that kind of stuff.
And it's in a caseki menu where you get this, this dishes that look like a like a little beautiful Japanese garden with many different components.
And you go through them and you find different stuff.
Even though at the same time, it's pretty sober, you know, it comes like, oh, this is like a very bad.
I'm pretty sure it pretends to be fun.
Like it's part of the way it's done like that.
You know, it's not it's not serious in the manner of, you know what I mean?
Like overly formal.
Yeah.
At the same time it is, you know, whimsical in a way.
Yeah.
Yeah. And also like, you know, because you mentioned caseki like I, for example, I had a really great time at one caseki dinner.
And it was because what I love about a lot of Japanese restaurants and approaches is like, you know, in a classic French restaurant, you have white china plates everywhere.
Right.
And so what I really appreciate about Japan was the wide variety of different plates and also like the appreciation for the ceramics.
So, you know, it didn't matter whether you and your partner next to you got the same dish.
It didn't really matter so much.
And I went to one dinner and I was just drinking tea all the way through.
And I think I ordered tea like six or seven times.
They were small cups.
Right.
Like it was just like really basic green tea.
And every single time I ordered the tea, it was a different cup, but like completely different, like completely different style.
And that aspect, it wasn't part of the like main menu or whatever.
It was just the way they were.
And they have like a selection of crockery and of ceramics.
But for me, it was super fun because like, and it made me want to like, it made me guess.
I'm sort of like, if I order another tea, how many teas do I have to order until they're like out of it?
Yeah, exactly.
Those are the things that I'm talking about that add to the experience and they pretend to be fun.
These things are not made up to be like, oh, let's see how he reacts with seven different cups.
It's like a funny, playful joke.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's like even like just small things.
You know, I mentioned you were sitting in a restaurant and you're about to have the meat course and somebody comes with a box.
And there's like different types of steak knives in there.
It says, oh, now it's time for you to choose your steak knife.
Yeah, your weapon of choice.
Exactly. Which one do you choose?
Do you choose the one with the wooden handle that's carved?
Do you choose the one with the deer antler?
Do you choose maybe a completely different one?
You know, and it's just fun.
It involves you with what's going on.
A lot of the times as a customer, I feel like you're kind of like you sit down, you order, you get one dish, you get the next, you get dessert and you're out.
But if you just take a few steps, as in like if you take the customer just a few steps out of that, it's really, really fun.
Like let them pour their own sauce.
Let them unwrap something.
Wrap your own burrito, make your own guacamole, like all this kind of stuff.
Yeah, yeah. Even just the simple act of eating with your hands often and breaking this barrier of like, you know, stiffness and a little bit awkwardness and, you know, loosening it up a little bit.
I feel like that can make a really, really big difference.
There's an example I mentioned.
I've mentioned many times, but even in the show, but I think it comes to this context, was this dinner that I had where Jordi Bros, he's now, he used to be head chef and now he is at the R&D team in Mugaritz.
He made this dinner where the concept, well, he and his team, they were students.
The concept was luck.
So they did many, many very fun things.
For example, they had like this blackjack table where you would take blackjack cards and each card was an ingredient and they would freestyle the dish that was on one side.
On the other side, they brought a dish that was one of the freestyle results that was a bread course, you know, like, and I've seen that also in Amelia and also in other restaurants where instead of having bread as a side thing,
there is a course where you have bread and butter and then you go on, you know, like it's not like it has its place, its protagonism at the point at the dinner.
I would say the highlight of that luck conceptual dinner was Breton, who is now, by the way, head chef at Aquilarre.
He was the, how to say, the tutor of this group and he was fucking around all night long since he entered to the dining room.
He was like, ah, where's the steak? I don't want this busy, busy New Vegasian bullshit.
I want a steak. Give me a chuleta. I want a chuleta. Where's the chuleta?
And he was saying this over and over and over and over again.
So the concept was luck. There was a blackjack.
And at some point they take a card out and they go like, oh, no, that shouldn't have happened.
That's like the unlucky card.
So the whole kitchen team comes out and they had a chuleta sliced.
Everyone had a slice and they were about to serve it, but they gave to Breton the dices.
You have to throw the dices now. And you're like, what? OK.
And it was, oh, that's bad luck. So all the chefs took out the slice and they ate it in front of us.
They left. That's hilarious.
That's really good. And it really worked because you got to do something like that and completely fucked it up.
Make everybody angry. You know, like, but in that case, it was like an ovation.
Everybody was like, oh, wow, this is incredible. That's really funny.
Yeah, see, that's like I think it's really depends.
Like it's like the whole molecular cuisine sort of thing.
Somebody does it and does it really well and everybody's like, wow, that was amazing.
And then everybody tries to do something similar, but does it like really mediocrely.
And I think it's kind of like that. You know, it's like if you if you're going to do it, you know, make sure you do it well.
And then it's really cool and it's really fun. It can be really faceted.
It can be a lot of things, you know. But yeah.
But also, for example, a savory sorbet.
I think that's fun. You know, like something.
But even something simple, you know, like like this playful with ice creams or an ice cream in general, not only a sorbet.
For example, making a I don't know, like a spinach ice cream, just to say like a very basic example.
But you remember this brainstorm we had once we had this game when Phil and I were together at Mago.
I would call it the Boba game.
That's how they call it in the Mugarets cookbook.
And you know, Boba and Forsgård where he would only talk about different ways to cook shrimps like stir-fried shrimp, baked shrimp, grilled shrimp.
Yeah, it's true. I remember.
So we would challenge each other to come up with like it was basically a brainstorm with good ideas around the concept.
And the concept was at that moment a savory ice cream.
And we were saying different stuff and different stuff.
And then at some point we came up with sushi rice ice cream. I think that's pretty interesting.
Which I think is still a great idea. Yeah, like I mean, just that on top of an oyster.
That's something, you know, that's something and something fun, something like, oh, nice, you know, like.
Absolutely. Yeah. Decontextualization.
Like I am actually a big fan of that, you know, I don't cook very gimmicky, but still decontextualizing, like making something so simple as take a really good onion, make it into a tartar tartar, you know.
Serve it with a vanilla chantilly if you want to, you know, what is an onion at the end of the day?
Then like, I mean, OK, onions are not onions, but like an onion can be incredibly sweet.
Right. Cook it with, cook it with cinnamon and star anise and vanilla and caramel and then serve it with puff pastry and like a vanilla chantilly.
Like, why not? Or, you know, like what I talked about in the last episode, you know, a this dessert that has a fiordilatte ice cream and basil, you know.
And olive oil. It's like sounds like a savory dish, but it's not because you take it out of the context that you're used to and straight away it makes it, it makes it can make it more interesting.
Taking a melon and adding salt to it and making it part of a salad, but not like a fruity part of a salad, like the same as you would do with a tomato.
You're a fruity part of a salad.
Don't talk to me like that. I believe those kind of things when you talk like that.
Yeah, or like a watermelon salad, you know, like, yeah, something like that.
It's great, you know, at the end of the day, you start also looking at things differently.
You start looking at things for what they are like red pepper, like a bell pepper, you know, I think, you know, when you have like a like a really nice pekio pepper, that's like you roasted and dehydrated and it's almost like fruit leather.
It's like intense, sweet, you know, deep flavor and you're kind of with so many things in cooking.
You have to realize I associate this certain product with something because I have learned culturally to associate it with something.
And if you can step back from that, like, for example, in the West eating insects, it's like, oh, no, an insect.
That's disgusting.
You know, it's kind of like, well, ask yourself, what is the difference really objectively between a shrimp and a and a cricket?
I recently I recently learned that people that are allergic to crickets and many insects are also allergic to crustaceans because they're somehow related.
Yeah, there you go.
Doesn't surprise me, but it's kind of like a lot of people will look at a shrimp and be like, that looks delicious because you imagine it roasted with garlic butter or however you want to have it.
You know, you look at a cricket and you're like, I'm not going to eat that.
Why? Because it's not part of your culture.
That's OK. You know, just don't be a hater.
If you can like step back from that, then suddenly the things that you know really open themselves up because you can be really, really free in your approach. You just look at them. What is it?
Is it crunchy? Is it soft? Is it sweet? Is it bitter? Is it sour? What is it? And what can I do with it?
You know, I name that comes to my mind is Pedrito Sanchez from Baga in Hain, South Spain.
For me, he is what maybe the most exciting chef right now in Spain.
He's doing like a very minimalistic and very thoughtful cuisine.
And I had the opportunity to dinner and an event he did here in San Sebastian.
And some of the dishes were naughty in manure sauce, for example, with capers.
You know, something like someone like you who understand like all these words is like, oh, that's thoughtful.
Or interesting. Yeah. Or serving salad and a dessert.
So I was just going to say, is he the guy with the like the sorbet with the salad?
Yeah, it was like what was a sorbet?
So it was a salad with a syrup and it was a rice vinegar sorbet.
Oh, yeah. Pretty similar to. Yeah.
Where did he get that idea from? That sounds genius.
Of course it does. Great minds think alike.
But then again, I can't say now even from the very good places, even though I haven't been to these places,
I wouldn't have to go to have my own opinion. But I can think of I forget it too much.
You know, like I can think of maybe fat dog, maybe the virtual that where you have like, I don't know,
like this kind of stuff where you have a sculptor of a red pig walking over the ceiling
or put your headphones to listen to the sound of outer space while you eat a oyster.
You know, it's like, OK, maybe maybe that's too much.
Like, I don't know. I don't know. I would have to try.
I totally agree. I totally agree. It's like I have the same opinion.
And I would still have the same opinion if I hadn't heard from people that I respect culinarily that they went to the fat dog and it was amazing.
And it was like all this like stuff. It was really, really fun.
And so I was like, OK, maybe it was like really well done.
But for example, like I can. Arsak had a dish where you eat like a like a sea landscape and it's like on top of this like like an iPad with waves and wave sounds.
And and then I'm kind of like, no, you lost me there. You know, like you. I don't know.
That's the thing. That's the thing. When you know it has it has to work.
It's not like when you have like, I don't know, like a clown at a children's birthday that comes in tells you, I'm a magician.
And you're like, OK, it's not working on me. You know, like it's like.
Can you leave me alone, please? I'm to finish my dish.
Go away. Yeah, it's horrible when it's like that.
I mean, when it works, it's it's great.
But if it doesn't work, you really fucked up because the diners are completely like, man, I can.
I think that's something that happens and it's over and over and over again.
Yeah, did we talk about the Mugarritz documentary that I saw relatively recently?
And Nipa Nipostri or what? What is it? Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, we have not talked about it. I have also not seen it.
So I saw the cinema because I had a friend that is somehow related to the documentary.
But, you know, I have this conflict with we've talked about this many times, but I have this conflict of what I just said, like that children's birthday clown,
that it doesn't connect to the audience and it doesn't work. So at the end, it ends up being awkward.
That happens. I feel that happens sometimes in Mugarritz.
And the problem is, problem from my perspective, of course, that they're proud about it.
They say at least we did whatever the fuck we wanted.
You know, like it's true. And if people get angry about it, we achieved something.
So they actually have that way of thinking, which is absolutely against any rule about providing a service.
Basically, yes, they don't care. I mean, they have the artist's approach.
They say, well, if we get a reaction out of you, good, you know, at least you felt something.
Yeah, you know my opinion about this. I think most people listening to the show regularly do as well.
I respect. I'm happy that Mugarritz exists, but it's yeah, it's not. I can't agree with that approach.
Yeah, me neither. They were actually making fun of the documentary, the reading,
because they would give you this like a booklet where you write your emotions during the experience.
Of course, a lot of people that love it, of course, but there's people that genuinely and strongly hate it.
You know, they write it. They will. Yeah.
It's an intense hate because you've spent a lot of money to be there. Exactly.
And nothing hurts people as much as their wallet. You know, so when they've spent, I don't know, 300 bucks to be there,
you know, with traveling and also on top of that. And then they're like, what the fuck is going on here?
You can argue that it's like, hey, if you if you haven't informed yourself about what Mugarritz is and what it does,
then it's kind of on you a little bit. We live in a we live in 2025.
There's plenty of information about Mugarritz out there in the world. But yeah, I get it.
Plenty of bad reviews as well. Just go to the Google reviews.
How many stars do they have on Yelp or Google? I don't know.
By the way, our stock is very high on these kind of platforms on TripAdvisor and Google reviews.
I think it's the best restaurant in San Sebastian. Oh, really?
That's all paid for. 100 percent. I'm sorry. No, no, no, no, no, no.
I mean, like our stock is he's like a living God all over Spain. He's like the classic OG in Spanish cuisine.
Well, the old man, not Elena. But I think for that reason, people respect the place so much.
And at the end of the day, it's a very classic thing.
I mean, they pretend to be very modern and playful. But at the end of the day, the recipes are very academic.
Hmm. Yeah, I got what you mean. Yeah.
But then again, going back to the topic, I think like a good channel to add a humorous layer to the experience.
And that works pretty well, even in very classic restaurants is service stuff.
The metri, a funny metri that knows how to nail a joke in the right moment.
And he has done it millions of times, so he knows exactly what he's doing.
And he says something like, trupsh, and then he leaves.
You know, like that adds a lot to the experience as well. I think that's also pretty important.
100%. And it's really underrated, I think. It's because it's really hard to nail the balance between being relaxed and friendly and witty,
but also not too forward, like to the guests and also realizing like when is enough?
Like, what is the capacity of the guests? Like when do they do they appreciate you talking to them?
Do they actually kind of want to continue that conversation? That's like a very, very fine line to walk.
And I feel there's very few people who know how to do this.
So either you're very stoic and very like, hmm, friendly and blah, and like, yeah, you know, can I do this? Can I do that?
Or I see a lot of people really overdoing it also. And you're kind of like, okay, all right, buddy. Yeah.
I saw the other day like a video of this server in the States and it had a sort of title of kind of like how to like how to increase your tips.
And she was sort of like pretending and making jokes and stuff like that.
And I it was like not funny enough to be a satire, like to be sarcastic.
So I think she meant it, but it was like just it was just too much, you know, for it to be like I was like, no, that's really uncomfortable, really uncomfortable.
And really like I would be sort of I think me at one point who doesn't give a shit, I'd be like, can you please go away?
Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, but we'd really like to continue our conversation.
Was that shitty? Leave now. Go away.
But something as simple as just a funny comment, you know, related to the food, of course.
But I can think of I was in this restaurant where we had the the squab, the game, the course.
And after we ate it, the waiters and something like did the bird flew away already?
Something like that, you know, yeah, you know, just like a little touch. And I think that that's also appropriate.
Even in a very formal setting, it should be part of the, you know, like of the whole set of tools that you can use to to enhance the experience.
100 percent. Yeah, it's like salt, you know, you know, just kind of like how much to use, not too little, not too much, just exactly the right amount to spice things up.
That's it for this week's episode of potluck food talks.
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