1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,960 Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:15,260 I'm here with Phil and today we're going to talk about bitterness, the last favorite flavor 3 00:00:15,260 --> 00:00:16,260 of any chef. 4 00:00:16,260 --> 00:00:19,300 Do you have a take on bitterness? 5 00:00:19,300 --> 00:00:26,940 Do you ever add bitterness to something you're cooking deliberately or is it just something 6 00:00:26,940 --> 00:00:33,760 that you'd find randomly in ingredients or in some cases it's pleasant and some others 7 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,200 it's something you want to avoid? 8 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:37,200 Have you ever thought about it? 9 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:38,440 That's a really good question actually. 10 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,680 I don't think, yeah, no, seriously. 11 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:50,880 I think I've almost never added bitterness deliberately to a dish or a recipe. 12 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,880 What about cocktails? 13 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:55,360 I was, uh, cocktails? 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:56,360 Oh yeah, true. 15 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,200 Yeah, that's very, very true. 16 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,680 Yeah, but in cooking you never really say, you never really taste something so it just 17 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:04,680 needs more bitterness. 18 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:05,680 Yeah, exactly. 19 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,560 It's something that comes by default in some ingredients. 20 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:11,920 Let's say coffee or chocolate. 21 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:17,520 If you could, you would take it away, but in chocolate or in coffee you can't. 22 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:18,520 So you have to. 23 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:19,520 I mean, yes and no. 24 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:24,200 I mean, if I'm thinking sort of like, so is this really funny that you, um, that you mentioned 25 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,240 this because I was talking to somebody the other day, kind of like, yeah, bitterness 26 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:34,200 is like the least favorite flavor of like all the flavors. 27 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:38,800 Because right now, I mean, now it's getting to the end of the season, but all through 28 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:43,840 winter I think getting these really amazing salads. 29 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:49,440 But like I was really sad when summer ended because all season long we were getting super 30 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:56,560 beautiful salads from garden just outside of Berlin and I was like, oh man, what a shame. 31 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:02,000 And then I like looked around a little bit and from a supplier of mine, I'm getting a 32 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,720 couple of different types of radicchio. 33 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:06,480 So bitter winter salads. 34 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:08,480 Yeah, but that's another one. 35 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:09,480 Exactly. 36 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:10,480 Some, some bitter salads. 37 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:11,480 Yeah. 38 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,720 Radicchio Rosso, which is like cotton candy pink. 39 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:16,400 Super, super beautiful. 40 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:21,680 I'm getting radicchio Castelfranco, which is yellow with like red dots. 41 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:28,000 And I'm getting Tardivo, which I have these like beautiful curried leaves and they're 42 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:33,080 really pleasantly bitter and like super, super delicious and super beautiful. 43 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,700 And I was kind of like, yeah, you know, we should eat more bitter stuff. 44 00:02:36,700 --> 00:02:37,700 That's a pretty good example. 45 00:02:37,700 --> 00:02:40,880 Like bitter leaves in a salad. 46 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:45,680 And I think it's very pleasant to have those kinds of salads and in your mescaline and 47 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:47,000 your salad mixer. 48 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,320 100% mescaline is also a nice word. 49 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,120 Nobody uses that really. 50 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:52,120 No. 51 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:53,120 No. 52 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,480 But you know what I also really like where I also kind of appreciate a little bit of 53 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:06,800 bitterness is in things, in preparations with citrus fruit that involve not just the peel, 54 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:08,920 but the pith, the white part. 55 00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:14,640 For example, in a orange marmalade, like a British orange marmalade, I do want it to 56 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:16,400 be a little bit of bitterness. 57 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,560 Yeah, that's part of its charm. 58 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:25,740 Also in a French gastrique, you want it to be lightly bitter. 59 00:03:25,740 --> 00:03:32,280 But in drinks, for example, in drinks, if a bartender asked me what I want, like a cafe 60 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,520 blanche, I will say something dry and bitter. 61 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:36,520 That's my drink. 62 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:37,520 That's your drink. 63 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:38,520 Yeah. 64 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,720 You're like a Negroni sort of person. 65 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:42,720 Yeah. 66 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,840 But for me, that's even sweet, pretty sweet. 67 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:46,840 It's sweet and bitter. 68 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:47,840 Yeah, for sure. 69 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:48,840 For sure. 70 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:49,840 Yeah. 71 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:50,840 It's not very dry. 72 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,560 Even the word bitter, it's related to something negative. 73 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,600 You know, like if you're feeling bitter, it's never good. 74 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:58,600 You know? 75 00:03:58,600 --> 00:03:59,600 Yeah. 76 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,840 Although if you're feeling sour, it's also not so good. 77 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,900 If you're feeling salty, it's also not very good. 78 00:04:05,900 --> 00:04:10,880 And if you're feeling spicy, then... 79 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:11,880 But you can feel sweet. 80 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:13,840 You know, that would be good. 81 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:14,840 Yes. 82 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:15,840 That's the only good thing, really. 83 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:17,200 It's the only good thing. 84 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:23,480 I've learned recently that once we start eating sweet things and sugar especially, that our 85 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,280 stomach automatically gives us... 86 00:04:26,280 --> 00:04:27,840 Dopamine. 87 00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:30,280 But it gives us the impulse to automatically eat more. 88 00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:32,040 Yeah, the dopamine. 89 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,840 That's what happened when you take cocaine or... 90 00:04:34,840 --> 00:04:35,840 Yeah. 91 00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:41,480 Actually, dopamine is a little bit misunderstood, as far as I've understood now, because everybody 92 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:45,440 thinks that dopamine is the pleasure. 93 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:52,240 But if you really narrow it down, dopamine is the satisfaction of pursuit and effort. 94 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:53,240 Like a reward. 95 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:54,240 Exactly. 96 00:04:54,240 --> 00:05:00,760 So, like, for example, dopamine is set free if you go because I do a lot of weightlifting. 97 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:09,280 And when you willingly go through a process that is very tedious and very hard, but you 98 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:13,960 come out the other end and you've achieved something, then it feels really, really good. 99 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:18,120 That's also, I think, kind of why doing a really hard service, even though you've been 100 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:24,720 chewed out and sort of like led through the meat grinder and the front of house manager 101 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,960 forgot to punch the table of six and they've been waiting for their main courses for an 102 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,760 hour and they're already angry, but you somehow made it work anyway. 103 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:34,000 And then you feel... 104 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:35,360 You go home, you feel really good. 105 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:41,240 I think that's the dopamine reward of you knowing that you've made a big effort and 106 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,520 that you've put a lot of yourself into it. 107 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:44,520 Oh, yeah. 108 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:45,520 I didn't know that. 109 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,760 I thought it was just like some news that your brain releases when you do some stuff 110 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,200 like taking cocaine or eating sugar. 111 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,000 Well, it is kind of. 112 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,600 I mean, I'm not an expert, but I do listen to a couple of podcasts that talk about this 113 00:05:58,600 --> 00:05:59,600 sort of stuff. 114 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:06,280 I mean, that's why dopamine detox is like usually to get dopamine, you have to use efforts to 115 00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:07,680 get there. 116 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:17,240 But now with social media and instant gratification or sex, reproducing, people can just go on 117 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:18,960 the internet and watch porn. 118 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:24,200 You used to have to go out and talk to real people and make a human connection and that's 119 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,120 who sort of pursued that. 120 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,840 And the pursuit of that is a process behind it. 121 00:06:28,840 --> 00:06:31,040 Now it's just like you don't need the effort. 122 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:36,360 You just get the dopamine and that's why it's so important to dopamine detox these days. 123 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,360 Going back to bitterness. 124 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,440 Tea for me is another example. 125 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,760 I like bitterness in my tea. 126 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:50,000 There has to be some degree of bitterness that I enjoy and it feels pretty herbal to 127 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:51,000 me. 128 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:56,560 I guess that the same herbal bitterness that you find in bitters of cocktail bitters, you 129 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:03,880 know, is the thing that tastes like, I don't know, like witch potion. 130 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,360 I'm drinking this really nice tea right now. 131 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:12,960 It's a company here and it's a white tea and they put pieces of dried apple and peach in 132 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:14,600 it. 133 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:15,600 But only like a little bit. 134 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:17,080 It's not like artificial aroma. 135 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,560 It's just like desiccated pieces of apple and peach. 136 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,640 And it gives the white tea this really, really beautiful aroma. 137 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:25,640 Super nice. 138 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,920 It's really floral and really light, but also a little bit astringent and bitter. 139 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:30,920 I really like that. 140 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,120 I also really like it in the Japanese teas. 141 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:39,000 I really like the Japanese teas that taste like fucking seaweed and grass, you know? 142 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,000 Oh yeah. 143 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:45,160 For me the seaweed note is key in a good sencha, for example. 144 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:46,160 That's so nice. 145 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,440 I feel like often things that you buy in sencha, they're like way too light. 146 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,080 It's like barely a green tea, you know? 147 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:57,160 But you have these ones that are mega deep and it's almost like biting into a sheet of 148 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:58,160 nori. 149 00:07:58,160 --> 00:07:59,160 It's amazing. 150 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:00,160 I love that. 151 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:01,160 I could drink that every day. 152 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:02,160 What about liquorice? 153 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,160 What's the name of liquorice in English? 154 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:06,160 Liquorice. 155 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:07,160 Liquorice. 156 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:08,960 What's the deal with liquorice? 157 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:09,960 I never liked it. 158 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:10,960 No. 159 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:11,960 What is the deal with liquorice? 160 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:16,200 This is like if when people ask me, oh, is there anything that you don't like? 161 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,960 I pretty much eat everything, you know? 162 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,360 The only thing that I'll always say is that I don't like liquorice. 163 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:23,360 Oh really? 164 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:24,360 I didn't know this. 165 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:25,360 Yeah. 166 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:26,360 Yeah, 100%. 167 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:27,360 I've never liked it not as a kid. 168 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:34,320 I have had one that I kind of like agreed to, which a friend of mine gave me here and 169 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,360 he was like, oh, do you want to try this Läckritz? 170 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,640 And I was like, no, I don't like Läckritz at all. 171 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:40,120 And he was like, oh, try this one. 172 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,080 It's like a very good one from there and there, blah, blah, blah. 173 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:44,920 I tried it and it was all right. 174 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,140 But like other Läckritz, I think it's horrible. 175 00:08:48,140 --> 00:08:54,920 Because you also have like this woody spice and also this horrible black gummy bear. 176 00:08:54,920 --> 00:09:00,160 Yeah, gummy bear that looks like you peeled it out straight of a fucking road, you know? 177 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,800 And that kind of tastes like that also. 178 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:06,640 But it's a pretty German thing, isn't it? 179 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:07,640 It's something like German. 180 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:14,080 Yeah, it's really like Scandinavian and therefore also a little bit German. 181 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,080 Like it's especially in the north of Germany, which obviously makes sense. 182 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,480 It's like closer to Scandinavia. 183 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:20,480 It is a big thing. 184 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:25,120 It's like a very traditional, it's like traditional licorice places and stuff. 185 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,080 But you know, the actual spice, the root, I really like. 186 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:30,080 Yeah, me too. 187 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:31,080 Me too. 188 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:38,240 Like using it for desserts or for anything, sauces, whatever you want, game, I think it's 189 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:39,240 interesting. 190 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:40,240 With game, it's beautiful. 191 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:45,520 Like even if like if you just like finish a dish with a little bit of it grated finely 192 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:51,880 on top, gives it this like, I don't know, it's almost like Tonka bean-ish. 193 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,120 Tonka bean also really, really bitter. 194 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:56,120 Is it bitter? 195 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:57,120 I don't know. 196 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,220 I only ever infuse it and stuff. 197 00:09:59,220 --> 00:10:01,560 So like, I don't know. 198 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:02,560 Was it? 199 00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:03,560 Yeah. 200 00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:04,560 Also, what's the deal with Tonka bean? 201 00:10:04,560 --> 00:10:11,040 Because something I didn't know for me, it was always Tonka bean and it sounded so European 202 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,160 and exotic. 203 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:20,280 And I think that the places I've seen it most used is in Germany and Austria, even though 204 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,880 it's illegal, if I'm not wrong, in Germany. 205 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:23,880 What? 206 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:24,880 No, no way. 207 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:26,040 Is it? 208 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,480 Because it's poisonous at large amounts. 209 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:31,920 Same as nutmeg, for example. 210 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:36,760 The thing is, many years later after living in Europe, I went back to Venezuela and I 211 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:42,280 find this seed that is called sarrapia in Venezuelan Spanish. 212 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,400 I'm like, oh, this is so nice, so interesting. 213 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,480 And then I realized this is fucking Tonka bean. 214 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,920 And then I found out that Venezuela is one of the greatest producers and exporters of 215 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,120 Tonka bean in the world. 216 00:10:55,120 --> 00:11:00,200 And I didn't know this because I was always using the European word and not the indigenous 217 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:01,200 one. 218 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:08,000 And it's something that is super underused in Venezuelan and Latin American cuisine. 219 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:13,300 And for some reason in Central Europe, pretty common in high-end restaurants, I would say. 220 00:11:13,300 --> 00:11:14,300 It's kicked off. 221 00:11:14,300 --> 00:11:19,200 Yeah, I mean, I've known Tonka bean since I started cooking. 222 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:20,200 But yeah, you're right. 223 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,240 It's very underused in general, even though it's a really, really nice product. 224 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,960 I mean, it's kind of, for me, like, it doesn't surprise me that it comes from Latin America 225 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:34,720 because for me, it kind of looks like a little, it doesn't look like, but I don't know, the 226 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:40,240 way it is and the properties and the flavor always reminded me a little bit of vanilla 227 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:41,320 in a way. 228 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,160 So it doesn't surprise me that it comes from Latin America, you know? 229 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,680 So I just Google it. 230 00:11:47,680 --> 00:11:57,160 And so the Tonka bean is not completely illegal, but it has a compound called coumarin that 231 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,200 is regulated in the EU. 232 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:07,440 And they use it many, yeah, that's probably the reason you won't find it, like, in drinks 233 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,280 in a supermarket or this kind of thing. 234 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:15,040 But it is used for cosmetics and perfumes. 235 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,800 So it's like a gray area. 236 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:22,160 I am pretty sure if there is a control in a restaurant and there are large amounts of 237 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:27,020 Tonka bean, that could be a problem. 238 00:12:27,020 --> 00:12:32,840 But it's always very subtly used, I guess, a little bit and a dessert or this kind of 239 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:33,840 thing. 240 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,560 Also for game, I love that shit for game sauces. 241 00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:42,080 I mean, I've only ever had it infused in ice creams and stuff like that. 242 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:43,880 I'm doing something right now. 243 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:48,800 I mean, I'm going back to citrus fruit, which I really, really like. 244 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,360 And that's something where I do want a little bit of bitterness, you know? 245 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,040 So I have this new dessert on the menu. 246 00:12:55,040 --> 00:13:00,600 It's like a Baba O'Rum, but it's not a Baba O'Rum. 247 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:01,600 It's a Baba. 248 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:08,840 Well, to explain, a Baba is, how could I describe it, like a very milky, sweet bread, kind of 249 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:17,120 like a brioche, similar, and a little bun that is then soaked in a rum syrup, more or 250 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,120 less, something like that, with cream, raisins. 251 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,240 Yeah, yeah, rum for sure. 252 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,040 I mean, that's why it's called Baba O'Rum. 253 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:25,520 Yeah, exactly what you said. 254 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:31,560 It's like a brioche, but a little bit more dry when it's baked, and you bake it out completely. 255 00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:33,360 So it's almost like a sponge. 256 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:38,200 And then straight away when it's hot, you put it into syrup and you douse it with rum, 257 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:39,200 and it's completely soaked. 258 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:45,000 It's like a little very moist, succulent sponge cake. 259 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:50,640 So I make it quite a lot every now and again, but I don't use rum. 260 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:51,760 It's like, it's very heavy. 261 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,440 I always kind of try to use something lighter, but it's cool because you can use seasonal 262 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:56,440 things, right? 263 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:05,480 You can soak it with cherry syrup and cherry pitts liqueur, or you can do quince syrup 264 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,040 and add some hazelnut schnapps and stuff like that. 265 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:09,040 So you can play around with it. 266 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:14,040 At the moment, we're soaking it with like a very nice lemon and vanilla syrup, and we're 267 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:18,000 dousing it with some apricot schnapps, like very dry apricot schnapps. 268 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:23,840 Also with that, we have an ice cream made from fiordilate, like mozzarella, you know, 269 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,680 it's like very milky, clean ice cream. 270 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:31,120 And we have a little salad of very thinly sliced lemon. 271 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,920 And it's the peel, the white part, and the flesh. 272 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:38,600 And you have to slice it really nicely with a knife, so you have very fine slivers, but 273 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:39,600 whole. 274 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,200 And you poach that in a very simple little syrup, and you let it cool down. 275 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:50,600 And then you make a salad with these half candied, half raw slices with like really 276 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,200 good quality olive oil and basil. 277 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:58,600 They're like sour, sweet, but also really bitter in a really, really pleasant way. 278 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:03,120 And it just like gives this, and they have to be, because otherwise it would be, like 279 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,440 it wouldn't, it would still be nice, but it wouldn't be nearly as interesting because 280 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,600 it gives it a lot of character. 281 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,800 It's like a like a blood orange ice cream sorbet or something. 282 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,400 It has to have this like bitterness, like a Campari. 283 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:15,400 Yeah. 284 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:16,400 Yeah. 285 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,520 And you just mentioned olive oil, since we're on bitter mode. 286 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:25,600 I thought that there are some very rustic olive oils that have a bitter note that I also 287 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:26,600 like very much. 288 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:27,600 A hundred percent. 289 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,960 Olive oil has such a huge variety of flavor, you know. 290 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:35,160 I mean, I have had olive oils that were so spicy that I could barely eat them by themselves, 291 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:36,160 you know. 292 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:37,160 Yeah. 293 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:38,160 I think you need that also. 294 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:44,240 I do love like really floral olive oils, but like the good olive oils, they also, they 295 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,200 have a lot of character, you know. 296 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,760 I feel like the more we talk about this, like bitterness makes up a lot of character and 297 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:50,760 a lot of food. 298 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,160 It's like very robust and present. 299 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:54,160 Yeah. 300 00:15:54,160 --> 00:16:02,960 But at the same time, it's hard for me to imagine a dish where the main element is bitterness, 301 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,040 like a tribute to bitterness. 302 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:11,560 If I had to think about something about that, I would think about a salad, probably with 303 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,080 wild herbs that are pretty bitter. 304 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:16,080 Probably some endives. 305 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,640 You mentioned frisee salad, this Lolo Rosso. 306 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:20,640 Chickory. 307 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:22,840 That kind of stuff. 308 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:28,040 That could be like, yeah, like a statement of bitterness in a plate. 309 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,920 Dandelion, very bitter. 310 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,600 Thinking about adding deliberately bitterness to a dish. 311 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:42,800 I don't know if the goal is to add bitterness, but I remember once a friend came to me and 312 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:48,480 we were talking about goulash and he told me, oh yeah, that's this stew where you add chocolate 313 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:49,480 to this stew. 314 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:54,240 And I was like, no, no, you don't. 315 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:55,720 And he was, yes, you do. 316 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:56,720 Yeah. 317 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:57,720 That's what you do. 318 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,800 I go it and I found out that some people do that. 319 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,680 It's not, but it's not like an extended practice. 320 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:10,800 But it's relatively common to find adding chocolate to sauces in Catalonia. 321 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:19,280 In Catalonia, to finish a stew, you add like an ounce of chocolate, which helps emulsify 322 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:20,280 it. 323 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:27,120 It adds this bitterness and character, especially for a game sauce or let's say a black pudding 324 00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:29,280 or this kind of stuff. 325 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:33,400 And I think that's a good example of, yeah, adding bitterness. 326 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,320 Also I could say the same thing about coffee. 327 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:44,360 Adding coffee to a sauce or I mentioned this ham I had with coffee oil in Japan that was 328 00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:45,360 incredible. 329 00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:49,680 Yeah, it's interesting. 330 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:58,640 The applications you can find, how to say, the pearl you put it on, it's usually strong 331 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:03,920 meat, the examples that I just mentioned. 332 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:05,280 Yeah, absolutely. 333 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:11,220 I mean, I could totally see like a salmese or like a game sauce with like some liver 334 00:18:11,220 --> 00:18:13,960 in it, you know, or like some heart. 335 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,760 And then a little bit of chocolate, like that's delicious, you know, super, super nice. 336 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:26,800 I've once eat a really, really lovely dish, which was lamb braised in coffee also. 337 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:34,280 Super tasty because the bitterness and the stringency and this roughness with the flavor 338 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:39,720 of the lamb and the vegetables braised down for a really long time worked super, super 339 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:40,720 well. 340 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,520 It was really sophisticated and really unusual and delicious, which brings me to one thing. 341 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:52,280 I saw the other day the craziest thing, Claude Bosse, chef in London who cooks at Bibendum. 342 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,720 I think he's got two or three Michelin stars. 343 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:59,680 He has this like dish where he takes a fillet of beef, he puts it in a dutch oven, like 344 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:05,240 a big Le Crozet or whatever, you know, and covers it bottom and top with Arabica coffee 345 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:06,240 beans. 346 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:12,160 He just buries it and roasts, puts this whole thing in the oven and roasts this whole fillet 347 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:13,760 in the Arabica coffee beans. 348 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,720 Whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. 349 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,000 The coffee beans are inside or outside? 350 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,000 Oh, inside. 351 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:22,000 Okay. 352 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:23,000 Inside. 353 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:29,280 So it's basically like burying this fillet of beef in coffee beans. 354 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,880 And then you put a lid on and you put it in the oven and you roast it. 355 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,280 You take it out, you let it rest. 356 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,680 And then to serve, you take it out of these like coffee beans. 357 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,920 The coffee beans have roasted, the fillet is roasted and is rested. 358 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:45,560 And you brush off the coffee beans and you slice the beef and serve it. 359 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,640 That's always like a great effect. 360 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:53,560 Like this dutch oven, cast iron pot, the moment of opening it and releasing the aromas. 361 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,960 I think that's something that should always be done in front of the guests because it 362 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,840 adds so much to the experience and you can play around so many things. 363 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:07,960 I remember ago we had once like this little mini Le Crozet where we would just burn spices 364 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,000 and open it in front of the guests and everything would come out. 365 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:12,380 Do you remember that? 366 00:20:12,380 --> 00:20:13,560 I don't remember that actually. 367 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,440 I have to be honest. 368 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:22,640 And also in Mugaritz they would walk around the dining room with salmientos, with this 369 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:29,000 wood and burn it just to add some grill, smoke, aroma. 370 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:35,360 That being in the countryside and smelling burnt wood is always like a good combination 371 00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:36,360 of things. 372 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:37,360 Oh, a hundred percent. 373 00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:43,980 Like, I mean, one of my strongest memories from working at Mugaritz is like getting out 374 00:20:43,980 --> 00:20:51,360 of the car on the car park when you arrived at a restaurant and smelling the mixture of 375 00:20:51,360 --> 00:20:55,440 cold mountain air and wood smoke. 376 00:20:55,440 --> 00:21:02,400 And for me it was like so impressive, like the smell that like to this day when I like 377 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,640 walk past the house, but I have like a wood fire burning or whatever and I smell it, I 378 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,280 get reminded of it straight away. 379 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:13,060 Yeah, I had the same like, you know, like after I finished Mugaritz, I never came back 380 00:21:13,060 --> 00:21:18,700 to the Basque country until at least 10 or 11 years later. 381 00:21:18,700 --> 00:21:23,120 And I remember when I came back, one of the first like mental clicks that I had like, 382 00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:25,080 whoa, what's the smell of the forest? 383 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,080 It was like, oh, I know this smell. 384 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:32,440 I've been here before, but I didn't, you know, I didn't remember it until I had, I could 385 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:33,440 smell it again. 386 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,860 That was pretty interesting. 387 00:21:35,860 --> 00:21:42,360 One thing that I think is like a dirty trick to make like a stupidly easy sauce is just 388 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:48,600 you have a dog breast, a dog magre, you cook it on the skin side. 389 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:55,160 So it releases all of these fats and then you, you leave just enough of the fat, the 390 00:21:55,160 --> 00:22:00,360 amount you would like to use and you add chocolate to that and you just shake the pan and that's 391 00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:02,680 a sauce and it's a pretty good sauce actually. 392 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,060 And you can, you can add whatever you want to it, you know, spices or, or citrus peels 393 00:22:07,060 --> 00:22:11,480 or these kinds of things, but already that as it is just with some salt, it's already 394 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:17,320 a sauce that you can serve on top of the duck and it works amazingly good. 395 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,880 And I've seen, I wouldn't do it exactly the same way, but I've seen people doing coffee 396 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:29,160 sauces for a duck, like an espresso sauce, but that one I haven't done and I wouldn't 397 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:36,080 mix just an espresso to the fat of the duck, but it wouldn't be something so complicated 398 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:37,980 to develop, I guess. 399 00:22:37,980 --> 00:22:40,840 How would you do a coffee sauce for a duck? 400 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:47,200 I've actually, when, when we opened LOREA in Mexico, the first dish that I put on the 401 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:53,240 menu and also for the opening was a duck main course and it was duck with chocolate. 402 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,680 Yeah, funnily enough. 403 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,640 And it was basically, we had this like very nice chocolates there in Mexico, you know, 404 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,300 you have amazing chocolates and it was that shaved very, very thin. 405 00:23:03,300 --> 00:23:13,820 Also you have these like, you know, these like curled up slivers and a little salad of like semi-dried raspberries. 406 00:23:13,820 --> 00:23:14,820 And what else? 407 00:23:14,820 --> 00:23:18,420 There was like other stuff there, but basically it was like these, this mix of like raspberries 408 00:23:18,420 --> 00:23:22,280 and chocolate with the duck on the side. 409 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:28,360 And then we had a duck sauce that we would mix into the roasted duck fat. 410 00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:34,120 And on the table we would pour that over the chocolate so it would kind of melt slowly 411 00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:36,520 into the, into the dish. 412 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,200 And so as you were eating it, you had like first the du jus and stuff and then you would 413 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,880 get more and more chocolate. 414 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,320 And it was very simple, but it was very, very nice. 415 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,960 Really good, really good combination. 416 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:48,960 Yeah. 417 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:49,960 Yeah. 418 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:55,880 I had to think also on this dessert from Hungary, how Pulsos de Café. 419 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:57,880 Did you ever did that one? 420 00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,560 I'm not sure. 421 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:04,480 For me, the interesting thing about the Pulsos de Café is that they were actually like cookies, 422 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:11,000 almond based cookies, but you would add grind coffee, coffee powder to the cookie. 423 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:16,420 So you were, you were actually eating coffee grains, like unfiltered. 424 00:24:16,420 --> 00:24:20,120 So there was like a good kick of coffee in on that dessert. 425 00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:21,120 Yeah. 426 00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:26,740 It's not that common to add actually the powder, as far as I know, to a cookie or something 427 00:24:26,740 --> 00:24:28,360 you end up actually eating. 428 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:29,360 Yeah, a hundred percent. 429 00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:35,040 I mean, like in Amas, which is wonderful restaurant that now unfortunately doesn't exist anymore. 430 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,760 They were making cookies out of all the used coffee grinds, you know, because they were 431 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,200 so focused on sustainability and they were delicious. 432 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,040 You know, it was like these like rectangular cookies and somehow they made them out of 433 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:48,040 the coffee grinds. 434 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,720 They did some sort of magic to them and they were absolutely delicious. 435 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,800 When I was in Mugarets, we also had a coffee dessert. 436 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,760 It was a little bit different though, but it was also pretty full on. 437 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,200 Just reminded me because when you were saying like, oh, it's just like raw coffee in there. 438 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:03,760 So you get like a kick. 439 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,480 We made this like Russo sandwich. 440 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:10,280 We call it Russo, like Russian, because it was meant to be like this like Russian meringue 441 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,700 cake, coffee meringue made with kuzu. 442 00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:15,000 So it was really delicate. 443 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,800 And then it was like a buttercream, but it looked like it was like completely filled 444 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:23,080 with cream, but actually it was an illusion because we just piped the cream on the outside. 445 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:28,680 So inside it was a mixture of lactose powder and instant coffee powder. 446 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,640 The idea was that it looks really rich, but you bite into it. 447 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:32,640 It's actually really light. 448 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,360 It disappears and you just have the flavor of like the milk and the coffee on your tongue. 449 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:42,880 But nowadays thinking back to it, I'm like, that was a mouthful of lactose powder and 450 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,560 instant coffee. 451 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:50,760 I mean, if you go to your friend's house and you see him just eating instant coffee out 452 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:57,000 of the jar, you would take him by the hand and say, hey buddy, are you okay? 453 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:57,840 What is happening with you? 454 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,120 What happened with you? 455 00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:01,280 That's another thing. 456 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:06,120 People won't believe how much instant coffee you will find in sauces and restaurants and 457 00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:10,120 desserts and cheap tiramisu and you name it. 458 00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:11,120 It's all over the place. 459 00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:12,120 Yeah, absolutely. 460 00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:22,080 Well, you mentioned Amaz giving a longer life to coffee, like reusing coffee grinds that 461 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:23,080 were already used. 462 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:29,240 I saw once like a process flow of doing that, but like, I don't know, it was at the end 463 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,240 like too much, like nine steps. 464 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:36,760 Like you would use coffee, then you have the used coffee grounds. 465 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:42,360 With those coffee grounds, you would add it to hay to grow mushrooms. 466 00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:46,440 So the mushrooms would work with some hints of coffee. 467 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:52,360 But then at the end you would have again, this miscellium mixed with coffee. 468 00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:55,960 So you would make a stock with that. 469 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:01,760 But after you did the stock, you will still have the used miscellium with hay that was 470 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:06,240 already cooked into a stock or a drink or whatever. 471 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,720 So that one you would dry and you would use it to smoke something. 472 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,000 But after you smoke this, then you would have the ashes of this. 473 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,680 So you could use the ashes to make a bread with this and so on. 474 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:35,560 So which was like a really interesting exercise of how long can you reuse a product in a kitchen. 475 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,680 That's it for this week's episode of Potluck Food Talks. 476 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,540 If you like what we're doing, make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss 477 00:27:42,540 --> 00:27:43,800 an episode. 478 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,800 You can also find us on Instagram and TikTok as Potluck Food Talks. 479 00:27:47,800 --> 00:28:06,200 The show airs every Monday.