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Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. I'm here with Santiago Fernandez. We're here

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in Tokyo. He's the chef from Mas, the little brother restaurant or big brother restaurant,

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maybe the way you see it from Central in Lima, Peru. And he's been running it since the opening

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in two and a half years ago. So welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's a pleasure. Thanks for inviting.

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Let's start with the beginning. What's your background? When did you start cooking? Was

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it in Venezuela or in the Basque Country? Yeah, yeah, I'm from Venezuela. I'm from Caracas.

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I was born there and I live all my childhood over there. And since I was very little, I

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was interested in gastronomy. My parents were always very food based and restaurants were

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always part of our routine. You know how was the situation in Venezuela back in the days.

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And I think that was our only place to kind of have fun as a family. No, I was a eight

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year old guy. And the only place that I went was with my family to restaurants. And we

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went probably three or four times in the weekend. So there is where I had like my family time.

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And they really taught me a lot about how to eat well, how to appreciate food, and how

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to have this appreciation to gastronomy. And since I was little, I would say maybe 10 years,

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I started already thinking that I was going to be a chef. And I took decisions very early.

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For example, I started studying gastronomy in Venezuela when I was 14. So after school,

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I just went to a cooking school and do until 12 in the night, like intensive lessons of

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cooking like every day in the week. And after that, when I was I graduated from there when

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I was 16, I started working at alto. Yeah, with Carlos. I worked at Malabar. Oh, Carlos

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as well. Yes. So I think it was a school that every Venezuelan chef had back in the days.

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There I started working when I was 16. And then after that, when I turned 17, I started

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in Legourmet with Elias Murciano was the chef of that moment. Yeah, the Tamanaco. Exactly.

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Yes. And then I just decided, of course, that I wanted to study in the best place possible

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that I could, that it was the Basque Country Center. At that time, it only had three years

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old or I was the third generation. So I decided that I want to be there. My parents were really

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supportive in that way. And they supported my decision all the way. And I moved to Spain

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when I was still 17. I was there in October. So I started studying when I was 17. I never

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looked back. You know, like for me, it was a decision that was very obvious in my life

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that I wanted to be a chef. I remember the first time I saw you that I recognized you.

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I don't know if you remember that I give this lecture on Latin America and avant garde at

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BCC. Yeah, I remember. I remember I was talking. I talked about Carlos Garcia, like how crazy

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it was for him to lead a fine dining restaurant in Venezuela with the whole situation where

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he had to go to Colombia to get basic ingredients like milk or butter by car. And I also remember

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talking about Virgilio and the whole movement he was creating. And suddenly, if I had to

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give that lecture again today, you would be part of the class, right? Like, which is crazy.

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Like, this all happened in how long? Maybe 11 years? Yeah, 11 years or so. Yeah, well,

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I guess we are turning back into the into the cycle, right? Were you already related

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to Central back then or you went after that lecture? No, I think I don't know if that

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lecture was in the third year or something. But on the third year, I went to Central to

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do my stash, my internship. I think I was there for three months. I love the way they

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work and I love the Latin American context in fine dining, how it worked, like because

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we still have a lot of essence and we respect Latin American traditions, but also we are

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looking forward now and we are showing ourselves in the world. So I decided that I wanted to

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do that. And thankfully, by I will say luck or also they saw that I was very interested.

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They offered me to come back after I finished my studies in the Basque country and work

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for them in the creative department. So what I didn't know is that when I finished the

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creative department was just the right spot when somebody was leaving and that time was

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Karime from Osseriaguchi. They offered me like to run it. So my like my first day at

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Central was, OK, you're going to start doing some trials for for the dishes and for the

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menu. And that didn't stop. Like I was there for six years working with Wilhelior. The

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pandemic was also in between. And as his right hand as well, like going around the world

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cooking, he I will say he's my mentor, of course. He taught me a lot of things of what

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I know. And that's also a big part of what we are doing over here. Right. Like the concept

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in mass is is this where cooking still ecosystems and we are still representing Peruvian biodiversity

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here in Japan. When I when I was at the Basque Heritage Center doing an exchange program,

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I wasn't working there back then. I was with Luis Valderrama. Yes. And when I returned to

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I had like an eight hour stop in Lima. Yeah. So they told me to come over to go to Central.

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We had like a tasting menu and it was amazing. And I remember after having it, I was like

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this place could be here. They have two Michelin stars. So there are no Michelin stars in Peru.

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Yeah. So the and suddenly you open this place and you got two stars after six months open.

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Was it like that? Or yeah, it was after the first year because we open when we open it

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was just like I will say two months before the award. So for the first ceremony, we were

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not eligible. But for the next one we were. So in our first ceremony, we were awarded

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two Michelin stars, which is pretty impressive. Now for for me was the first year that I run

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and having like this opening that makes so much sound around the world. And then having

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two Michelin stars, it gets the bar very high, you know, like the pressure and the expectations

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of the of the customers. They were already high, but now they're even higher. Yeah, that

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was great. But also it put us in the place that I think that we should be, you know,

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like working in this level in a city like Tokyo. I think we should be seen and what

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we're doing is truly special. So I think it's a it's a good showcase for us to for people

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just to come and to visit what we're doing. OK, so I can imagine you were not expecting

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two stars in the first award or or is it something that there were some hints? No, no, no. So

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some people did like but for me, I'm always more down to earth. And I was saying, you

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know, maybe one. I saw the video when you get MSI, you're completely like, what? No,

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because a lot of people were saying like, OK, no, you deserve to you serve to. But I

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thought that's what they say when when they want to be nice with you, right? Like, oh,

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very. But I think they were saying something with a little more criteria than what I was

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expecting. I was expecting maybe only one or yeah, maybe one and one green star or something

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about for me was a surprise. I didn't expect that at all. And then suddenly you became

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from partially unknown to to kind of like a celebrity chef. You get invited to events

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all over the world overnight. How was this transition? Yeah, I mean, I've seen with

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helium and actually with helium when I started with him, he was already known and his concept

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was already getting getting famous around the world. But I saw how he grew with with

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central and this gave me a little bit of context as well. OK, I just have to keep it. Keep

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it cool. I'm not going to take everything that they are offering me because it's also

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not the way it should be. You know, we are the same restaurant. Nothing changes. Just

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a matter of perspective. Right. So of course, all these people start like craving about

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it and asking me to go to places. But I just took it normally, like literally like another

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day. The next day we just went to a restaurant, open it and do the same thing. And we didn't

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get crazy with it, which I think is the way to go. Right. Like, I don't I don't think

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it deserves to such a big hype. We were doing the same thing. And what we really want to

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do is to keep improving, not for the stars. It's just because we still think that the

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that mass as a big gap until we reach that one hundred percent that I think we're capable

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to reach. So, yeah, we're working on that mainly. Also, like I myself, I had a problem

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like coming to Japan and I was going to mass, but maybe that's not what I'm looking for.

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Yeah. Like if I go to Japan, I want to visit mainly Japanese restaurants. But then I thought

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of that this is not necessarily Peru because it's very territory oriented. Right. So you

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work with the surroundings and with a specific philosophy. Exactly. Exactly. For me, the

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important thing when when you come to mass is that you know that you are, of course,

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getting the same concept as central, but in a completely different background. Now we're

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running in Japan, we're using 80 percent of Japanese ingredients in our menu. The perspective

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that I take on the food is completely different because I already had some experiences over

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here learning of produce and chefs that I'm with them all the time and eating out. So

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the food already has a different perspective. And I love when people come here and try something

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Peruvian instead of going to something Japanese because they really get surprised. That's

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like, OK, I didn't expect this at all. I was thinking that I was going to just to eat the

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menu of central but in Japan. But it's not the case. You're eating. You're getting Shirako.

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You're getting all sorts of Japanese stuff. Exactly. Yeah. Kura right now in the menu

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we have Ikura, we have Shirako, we have a sea urchin, we have all these things that

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I think is nice to see it through these eyes. Not like the eyes of matter in Isatiba, where

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we showcase still the proven diversity very strictly because I think that's also very

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important. We cannot lose the focus or the essence of the restaurant that is to show

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the biodiversity, but still learning and evolving with the Japanese products. So I won't say

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that is completely different, but I won't think anybody will experience something similar

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in central and in mass. So I think that's the idea. If not, where would you come to

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mass? Right. How many restaurants are there in the group? There's also meal and meal,

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but there's also a lot of mass and central at the moment. We had some other ones. Yeah.

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Before we had some other ones in other parts, but right now those are already kind of over.

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But right now only four. Yes. So tonight we're going for the menu. What should we expect?

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What? Well, it's a nine ecosystem menu. So we are showcasing like as an inspiration,

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we're always thinking pervert. Don't think that we're going to cook Japanese ecosystem

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because as I was telling before, like over here, we don't come to explore anything. We

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don't come to research about anything because they already have their strong culture. So

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we don't want to be overstepped into this tradition, but we're doing nine Peruvian ecosystems

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using a lot of very good Japanese ingredients, which I think for also for people coming to

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visit is interesting on that way. Not like you will say, no, I want to taste Japanese,

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but maybe you haven't tried like a Shirako here in Japan. You haven't tried Kura or you

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haven't tried maybe a wild boar. So I think that's why it's so interesting for both sides.

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And for Japanese is more on the side of the flavors, right? Like for them, all these flavors

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are completely new. Maybe for you that you've been to Peru, you already tried some, but

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for them is like first time that they try these flavors always. And even though we have

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to adapt to the flavors because the profile here is a little bit more like on the balance,

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right? They don't want too salty. They don't want too sour. So of course you always have

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to adapt to the local. Yeah, we, we do that. We just put the local customers upfront because

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we know maybe tourists or foreigners, they will enjoy those strong flavors, but we try

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to keep it in in between. You know? Okay. And what Peruvian products do you have here?

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Like all kinds, root vegetable to have wakata? Yeah, I was surprised that of course I knew

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we are going to have some like dry things because there's a big community of, of Peruvians

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in Japan, but I didn't expect to have the fresh ones, which it was a very kind surprise

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to see that they are growing here in Maca for example. Yeah. And they're growing wakata,

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they're growing chincho, they're growing native potatoes with a Peruvian varieties. They are

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growing. Let me see what else. I knew there were a lot of Japanese in Peru, but not the

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other way around. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Also. So I wouldn't say that it's the biggest Peruvian

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community outside of Peru, but it's a strong one. It's a strong one. And they, they already

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settled here probably 30 years ago and they've been of course growing their products. They

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have also a Waimanto, they have like crazy things like a Chirimoja, you know, you have

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in Okinawa. So Japan is very biodiverse in the same way because it's an island, you will

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say it's very small, but it has different microclimate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They go all

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the way to Taiwan almost. And they have this tropical weather as well where they grow in

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Okinawa, a cacao, they grow the, the Chirimoja, they grow like a, well, the passion fruits,

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the mangoes, everything. So it's, it's not as difficult as you will think like all cooking

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Peruvian food in Japan is impossible. Right. And for you as a chef how has the life been

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here in Japan? Like going out to eat, being exposed to Japanese products, Japanese chefs,

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restaurants and everything. It's super exciting. I always say that it has more like good, good

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side than the bad side. Of course, the bad side will be mostly on the like first pressure

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and also the work environment and ethic is very intense. So you're expected to be first

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in the restaurant to go last with the last customer and to open six days a week. And

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that's, that's very intense for somebody that is just the face of a restaurant, you have

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to be there all the time exposing yourself. On the bright side, there's so much more,

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you know, you have, I get to eat in the best restaurants in the world in my day off, which

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is amazing. I get to use the best toilets of the world every day. And, and like the

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seasons are so well divided and they're like very small. And over here, they're respected

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so much that you're literally getting the best of the best just from, from the market.

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It's just a couple of blocks away. So this is the experience of a lifetime. I know that

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over here, I'm not going to be living for my whole life because I think, I don't know

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if I could handle this for too long because it's very intense, like our family wise and

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everything. I don't know if I could, I could handle it. But in the moment that I will be

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here, like in the, in the space that I'm going to be here, I've learned like probably three

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times faster or four times faster anywhere in the, in the world that I've been, right?

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Like it's just so much happening and Tokyo is a hub. You know, everybody's coming here.

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You get to, to cook for people from all over the world. Like chefs, just in the last, last

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two months, we had Ferran Adria coming. We have Mauro Colagreco coming to eat. Wow. And

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they're like big people in the restaurant just because you're, you're in Tokyo. So that's,

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that doesn't have a price. Yeah, no, no, it's incredible. You also met Kevin from Noma.

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Yes. Yeah, we're meeting him. He's a friend of us and a friend of the show. We did an

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episode with him. Okay. And we're going to meet him in Kyoto. You were like visiting

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some producers or something. I saw some stories you published. Yeah, I do. I do this sometimes

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every once in a while. I take two days off so we can make these little trips around Japan.

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So we met in this trip that we did to Kagoshima. Kagoshima is in Noma. It's a katsu-bushi.

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Ah, yeah, I've heard about it. Yeah. It's crazy because in Mas, we don't use katsu-bushi.

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So it's, it's just for the sake of learning and to see how in some way this could be good

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for the restaurant. At the end, I think learning about Japan is always good. Even if it's just

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to learn about the profile of flavor, it goes, something of this goes to Mas. So I'm happy

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with that. We also saw like how they did the black vinegar, which is also from that area

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because it's very close to China in a way. Like China was the port where they arrived

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to Japan. So they have this influence of the black vinegar and kurosu is in Japanese. And

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also they have the sochu, which is the like sweet potato spirit. It's like an alcohol

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made with sweet potato. They do it also sometimes with rice, sometimes with other types of potatoes.

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That's also very interesting. So every place in Japan has its own personality and they

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have their own ingredients and they're special for something. We just Google also in Niigata,

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it's a little more to the, to the West where they have a whole other variety. They're special

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for rice. They're very good at like harvesting chili peppers as well. They have a lot of

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different kinds of things in Niigata. So it's, it's endless. Japan literally is a small

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island, but it's endless. You can go visit places and know new stuff every, every single

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week. So that's very exciting. You mentioned you, you're not using katsuobushi. What other

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or what are the constraints of mass? Yeah, not constraints in the way that we cannot

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use because it's a rule. It's just, I, I try to avoid very Japanese oriented flavors because

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I think that's not what the people come to mass. For example, I don't know, wasabi or

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katsuobushi. Sometimes like a soy sauce in a very present way, you know, like a lot of

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let's say what other ingredient like miso also like in a very strong presence. We, we've

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used miso sometimes in some sauce, but they're always like a background of Mami, but never

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like on, on, on, on front. So that's, we're just trying to avoid to fall into this thing

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because a lot of foreign yourself, they come to Japan and they get really excited with

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the flavors and it's like, okay, I'm going to use you, I'm going to use this. I'm going

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to use my, my own soy sauce. And he's like, I think that's why you have to avoid that.

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So they already pretty good at it. And there are so many places doing it very well. Don't,

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don't get on that land because that's not our space. It's a matter of differentiating

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yourself and also respecting, you know, like it's just a true respect for, for what they're

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doing. And it's like, I'm not there. I need 10 years at least to understand how you use

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it. So I'm not going to come here in the first few years and think that I, I'm able to do

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it. Right. So, so yeah, those are the things that we try not to touch.

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You also mentioned on your day off, you've been to some of the best restaurants in the

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world. What are your highlights here in Japan that you have visited?

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Well, I like a lot of Japanese food, like by Japanese food, I mean, I like bashocku,

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which is like kind of a kaiseki, but it's mainly, it's not as poetic, right? Like kaiseki

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is more about the season.

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So you were saying, uh, washocku? Yeah, yeah. Like, uh, the restaurants I usually go like

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washocku, which would be kind of a kaiseki, but a little less, uh, poetic. It's more about

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the food and the techniques and the products. And I've been, for example, Fuji, this is

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in Toyama. This is for me, the best washocku I've been in my life. They are using the best

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products. And I went in, in, in February, which is the season of the, of the crab, suwagani,

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and also the booty season. So I had like, I think one of the best meals of my life. Also

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here in Tokyo, I like Miyo-Yaku as well, which is a little more pure. Uh, he's doing something

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really innovative inside of Japanese food. He looks super traditional. He's respecting

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all the boundaries, but at the same time, he's innovating in the techniques that he

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uses inside of the food for a chef. I think is very important. Uh, a little bit more innovative

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on the Japanese side is Noda. Noda in Harajuku, he's like a, a young chef who trained abroad,

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like in, in some other countries and, and in France. And he's doing like Japanese food

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with his own perspective because he was outside. So this is very interesting. And sushi as

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well. Like you, you have the, the big names, uh, here in Japan, the big names are really,

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really good. You know, it's not like, uh, they're, they're just, they overhype. No,

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like sugita for me was one of the best sushi experience of my life. So, uh, I, I went to

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the big names, Sugita, Sugita, Saito, you have Arai, you have a Mamoto, or you have

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a Mitani that we have one Mitani just in front of on Masasuo. Um, those are the big ones.

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So we're entering now the building where Masasuo, what can you tell us about this building and

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this whole complex? Yeah. Restaurants in Japan, they're everywhere. Like, uh, you can find

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them in any spot in the subway. You can find them inside of office buildings. Like this

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is just the basement of a, of a hotel and office building. And in this basement floor,

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you can find like seven fine dining restaurants. I think we are sharing, uh, between them all

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like six Michelin stars. Um, and it's every same floor. Yeah. Yeah. It's very, it's very

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common to see this because, um, you'll find like a niche, not like people that knows that

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this area is known for the restaurants. Like inside is the same. And also you can get a

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little bit of this maybe in some places in, in a Sabudai and in Omotesando. But, um, but

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yeah, it's just a floor with fine dining restaurants. Like over here we have Chiune. This is a almost

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like only members restaurant where if you are not a, you're not member there, you cannot

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make reservations. This happens a lot in, in Tokyo. And we'll, over here we have a Mas.

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There's a Michelin sign. Yeah. It's a small place. Like people get surprised sometimes.

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They expect that when they come, they think it's a big investment that we come to Japan

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and it's not a matter of investment. It's more about like what people is just over here.

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Okay. It doesn't make sense sometimes to have a big place if, if you're not able to give

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what people is expecting. Right. So it's very just to something that will meet the expectations

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of the, of the customers. And that's it. Yeah. Over here, people understands that, you know,

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like even Michelin, like, uh, you will say that a restaurant with these proportions,

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why should it has two stars? You don't have enough space. You don't have the, all the

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luxury stuff that we're used to, but the Japanics is different. Like that doesn't matter where

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they're just focusing on the food and, and what it's important. Okay. Nice. Let's take

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a look at the place. Or we're still in a Mizen plus. So it's, it's kind of crazy, but we

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just arrived here and we have the, the matter table where we show our customers when they

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arrive this, the proven ingredients are curated by matter matter initiative, our research

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center back in Peru. And we, we make a brief explanation of these ingredients, um, before

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they try it. Right. So they, they know what type of things greens were, where they're

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gonna be eating at. Uh, for example, you have here like the charcoal, this is an edible

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clay from the Andes. We also have the copa Sue, the Macambo and the cacao, which belong

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to the same family of cacos. Uh, we have the true no, which is a freeze dried potato from

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the Andes. Uh, we also, we bring a shot from the Amazon. We've been so serious from, from

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the Andes as well. Uh, we have the pie chair as an inspiration. No, we have the, the patches

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are gigantic, I'm a sonic fish or the arafaima or in some places. Yeah. Correct. Uh, we have

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green coffee from Cajamarca in Peru. Also one of the best coffee in the world. Some

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Brazilian nuts. So people, sometimes they don't really think this is Peru. They, when

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they think about Peru is just, uh, chili peppers, limes and onions. But, um, but over here is

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much more than that. You know, we're just, uh, digging into the, into the, the, to the

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real Peru. This is something that people don't know about. So that's why it's so interesting

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to come here and experience that.

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That's it for this week's episode of potluck food talks. If you like what we're doing,

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