Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. I'm here with Santiago Fernandez. We're here
in Tokyo. He's the chef from Mas, the little brother restaurant or big brother restaurant,
maybe the way you see it from Central in Lima, Peru. And he's been running it since the opening
in two and a half years ago. So welcome to the show.
Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's a pleasure. Thanks for inviting.
Let's start with the beginning. What's your background? When did you start cooking? Was
it in Venezuela or in the Basque Country? Yeah, yeah, I'm from Venezuela. I'm from Caracas.
I was born there and I live all my childhood over there. And since I was very little, I
was interested in gastronomy. My parents were always very food based and restaurants were
always part of our routine. You know how was the situation in Venezuela back in the days.
And I think that was our only place to kind of have fun as a family. No, I was a eight
year old guy. And the only place that I went was with my family to restaurants. And we
went probably three or four times in the weekend. So there is where I had like my family time.
And they really taught me a lot about how to eat well, how to appreciate food, and how
to have this appreciation to gastronomy. And since I was little, I would say maybe 10 years,
I started already thinking that I was going to be a chef. And I took decisions very early.
For example, I started studying gastronomy in Venezuela when I was 14. So after school,
I just went to a cooking school and do until 12 in the night, like intensive lessons of
cooking like every day in the week. And after that, when I was I graduated from there when
I was 16, I started working at alto. Yeah, with Carlos. I worked at Malabar. Oh, Carlos
as well. Yes. So I think it was a school that every Venezuelan chef had back in the days.
There I started working when I was 16. And then after that, when I turned 17, I started
in Legourmet with Elias Murciano was the chef of that moment. Yeah, the Tamanaco. Exactly.
Yes. And then I just decided, of course, that I wanted to study in the best place possible
that I could, that it was the Basque Country Center. At that time, it only had three years
old or I was the third generation. So I decided that I want to be there. My parents were really
supportive in that way. And they supported my decision all the way. And I moved to Spain
when I was still 17. I was there in October. So I started studying when I was 17. I never
looked back. You know, like for me, it was a decision that was very obvious in my life
that I wanted to be a chef. I remember the first time I saw you that I recognized you.
I don't know if you remember that I give this lecture on Latin America and avant garde at
BCC. Yeah, I remember. I remember I was talking. I talked about Carlos Garcia, like how crazy
it was for him to lead a fine dining restaurant in Venezuela with the whole situation where
he had to go to Colombia to get basic ingredients like milk or butter by car. And I also remember
talking about Virgilio and the whole movement he was creating. And suddenly, if I had to
give that lecture again today, you would be part of the class, right? Like, which is crazy.
Like, this all happened in how long? Maybe 11 years? Yeah, 11 years or so. Yeah, well,
I guess we are turning back into the into the cycle, right? Were you already related
to Central back then or you went after that lecture? No, I think I don't know if that
lecture was in the third year or something. But on the third year, I went to Central to
do my stash, my internship. I think I was there for three months. I love the way they
work and I love the Latin American context in fine dining, how it worked, like because
we still have a lot of essence and we respect Latin American traditions, but also we are
looking forward now and we are showing ourselves in the world. So I decided that I wanted to
do that. And thankfully, by I will say luck or also they saw that I was very interested.
They offered me to come back after I finished my studies in the Basque country and work
for them in the creative department. So what I didn't know is that when I finished the
creative department was just the right spot when somebody was leaving and that time was
Karime from Osseriaguchi. They offered me like to run it. So my like my first day at
Central was, OK, you're going to start doing some trials for for the dishes and for the
menu. And that didn't stop. Like I was there for six years working with Wilhelior. The
pandemic was also in between. And as his right hand as well, like going around the world
cooking, he I will say he's my mentor, of course. He taught me a lot of things of what
I know. And that's also a big part of what we are doing over here. Right. Like the concept
in mass is is this where cooking still ecosystems and we are still representing Peruvian biodiversity
here in Japan. When I when I was at the Basque Heritage Center doing an exchange program,
I wasn't working there back then. I was with Luis Valderrama. Yes. And when I returned to
I had like an eight hour stop in Lima. Yeah. So they told me to come over to go to Central.
We had like a tasting menu and it was amazing. And I remember after having it, I was like
this place could be here. They have two Michelin stars. So there are no Michelin stars in Peru.
Yeah. So the and suddenly you open this place and you got two stars after six months open.
Was it like that? Or yeah, it was after the first year because we open when we open it
was just like I will say two months before the award. So for the first ceremony, we were
not eligible. But for the next one we were. So in our first ceremony, we were awarded
two Michelin stars, which is pretty impressive. Now for for me was the first year that I run
and having like this opening that makes so much sound around the world. And then having
two Michelin stars, it gets the bar very high, you know, like the pressure and the expectations
of the of the customers. They were already high, but now they're even higher. Yeah, that
was great. But also it put us in the place that I think that we should be, you know,
like working in this level in a city like Tokyo. I think we should be seen and what
we're doing is truly special. So I think it's a it's a good showcase for us to for people
just to come and to visit what we're doing. OK, so I can imagine you were not expecting
two stars in the first award or or is it something that there were some hints? No, no, no. So
some people did like but for me, I'm always more down to earth. And I was saying, you
know, maybe one. I saw the video when you get MSI, you're completely like, what? No,
because a lot of people were saying like, OK, no, you deserve to you serve to. But I
thought that's what they say when when they want to be nice with you, right? Like, oh,
very. But I think they were saying something with a little more criteria than what I was
expecting. I was expecting maybe only one or yeah, maybe one and one green star or something
about for me was a surprise. I didn't expect that at all. And then suddenly you became
from partially unknown to to kind of like a celebrity chef. You get invited to events
all over the world overnight. How was this transition? Yeah, I mean, I've seen with
helium and actually with helium when I started with him, he was already known and his concept
was already getting getting famous around the world. But I saw how he grew with with
central and this gave me a little bit of context as well. OK, I just have to keep it. Keep
it cool. I'm not going to take everything that they are offering me because it's also
not the way it should be. You know, we are the same restaurant. Nothing changes. Just
a matter of perspective. Right. So of course, all these people start like craving about
it and asking me to go to places. But I just took it normally, like literally like another
day. The next day we just went to a restaurant, open it and do the same thing. And we didn't
get crazy with it, which I think is the way to go. Right. Like, I don't I don't think
it deserves to such a big hype. We were doing the same thing. And what we really want to
do is to keep improving, not for the stars. It's just because we still think that the
that mass as a big gap until we reach that one hundred percent that I think we're capable
to reach. So, yeah, we're working on that mainly. Also, like I myself, I had a problem
like coming to Japan and I was going to mass, but maybe that's not what I'm looking for.
Yeah. Like if I go to Japan, I want to visit mainly Japanese restaurants. But then I thought
of that this is not necessarily Peru because it's very territory oriented. Right. So you
work with the surroundings and with a specific philosophy. Exactly. Exactly. For me, the
important thing when when you come to mass is that you know that you are, of course,
getting the same concept as central, but in a completely different background. Now we're
running in Japan, we're using 80 percent of Japanese ingredients in our menu. The perspective
that I take on the food is completely different because I already had some experiences over
here learning of produce and chefs that I'm with them all the time and eating out. So
the food already has a different perspective. And I love when people come here and try something
Peruvian instead of going to something Japanese because they really get surprised. That's
like, OK, I didn't expect this at all. I was thinking that I was going to just to eat the
menu of central but in Japan. But it's not the case. You're eating. You're getting Shirako.
You're getting all sorts of Japanese stuff. Exactly. Yeah. Kura right now in the menu
we have Ikura, we have Shirako, we have a sea urchin, we have all these things that
I think is nice to see it through these eyes. Not like the eyes of matter in Isatiba, where
we showcase still the proven diversity very strictly because I think that's also very
important. We cannot lose the focus or the essence of the restaurant that is to show
the biodiversity, but still learning and evolving with the Japanese products. So I won't say
that is completely different, but I won't think anybody will experience something similar
in central and in mass. So I think that's the idea. If not, where would you come to
mass? Right. How many restaurants are there in the group? There's also meal and meal,
but there's also a lot of mass and central at the moment. We had some other ones. Yeah.
Before we had some other ones in other parts, but right now those are already kind of over.
But right now only four. Yes. So tonight we're going for the menu. What should we expect?
What? Well, it's a nine ecosystem menu. So we are showcasing like as an inspiration,
we're always thinking pervert. Don't think that we're going to cook Japanese ecosystem
because as I was telling before, like over here, we don't come to explore anything. We
don't come to research about anything because they already have their strong culture. So
we don't want to be overstepped into this tradition, but we're doing nine Peruvian ecosystems
using a lot of very good Japanese ingredients, which I think for also for people coming to
visit is interesting on that way. Not like you will say, no, I want to taste Japanese,
but maybe you haven't tried like a Shirako here in Japan. You haven't tried Kura or you
haven't tried maybe a wild boar. So I think that's why it's so interesting for both sides.
And for Japanese is more on the side of the flavors, right? Like for them, all these flavors
are completely new. Maybe for you that you've been to Peru, you already tried some, but
for them is like first time that they try these flavors always. And even though we have
to adapt to the flavors because the profile here is a little bit more like on the balance,
right? They don't want too salty. They don't want too sour. So of course you always have
to adapt to the local. Yeah, we, we do that. We just put the local customers upfront because
we know maybe tourists or foreigners, they will enjoy those strong flavors, but we try
to keep it in in between. You know? Okay. And what Peruvian products do you have here?
Like all kinds, root vegetable to have wakata? Yeah, I was surprised that of course I knew
we are going to have some like dry things because there's a big community of, of Peruvians
in Japan, but I didn't expect to have the fresh ones, which it was a very kind surprise
to see that they are growing here in Maca for example. Yeah. And they're growing wakata,
they're growing chincho, they're growing native potatoes with a Peruvian varieties. They are
growing. Let me see what else. I knew there were a lot of Japanese in Peru, but not the
other way around. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Also. So I wouldn't say that it's the biggest Peruvian
community outside of Peru, but it's a strong one. It's a strong one. And they, they already
settled here probably 30 years ago and they've been of course growing their products. They
have also a Waimanto, they have like crazy things like a Chirimoja, you know, you have
in Okinawa. So Japan is very biodiverse in the same way because it's an island, you will
say it's very small, but it has different microclimate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They go all
the way to Taiwan almost. And they have this tropical weather as well where they grow in
Okinawa, a cacao, they grow the, the Chirimoja, they grow like a, well, the passion fruits,
the mangoes, everything. So it's, it's not as difficult as you will think like all cooking
Peruvian food in Japan is impossible. Right. And for you as a chef how has the life been
here in Japan? Like going out to eat, being exposed to Japanese products, Japanese chefs,
restaurants and everything. It's super exciting. I always say that it has more like good, good
side than the bad side. Of course, the bad side will be mostly on the like first pressure
and also the work environment and ethic is very intense. So you're expected to be first
in the restaurant to go last with the last customer and to open six days a week. And
that's, that's very intense for somebody that is just the face of a restaurant, you have
to be there all the time exposing yourself. On the bright side, there's so much more,
you know, you have, I get to eat in the best restaurants in the world in my day off, which
is amazing. I get to use the best toilets of the world every day. And, and like the
seasons are so well divided and they're like very small. And over here, they're respected
so much that you're literally getting the best of the best just from, from the market.
It's just a couple of blocks away. So this is the experience of a lifetime. I know that
over here, I'm not going to be living for my whole life because I think, I don't know
if I could handle this for too long because it's very intense, like our family wise and
everything. I don't know if I could, I could handle it. But in the moment that I will be
here, like in the, in the space that I'm going to be here, I've learned like probably three
times faster or four times faster anywhere in the, in the world that I've been, right?
Like it's just so much happening and Tokyo is a hub. You know, everybody's coming here.
You get to, to cook for people from all over the world. Like chefs, just in the last, last
two months, we had Ferran Adria coming. We have Mauro Colagreco coming to eat. Wow. And
they're like big people in the restaurant just because you're, you're in Tokyo. So that's,
that doesn't have a price. Yeah, no, no, it's incredible. You also met Kevin from Noma.
Yes. Yeah, we're meeting him. He's a friend of us and a friend of the show. We did an
episode with him. Okay. And we're going to meet him in Kyoto. You were like visiting
some producers or something. I saw some stories you published. Yeah, I do. I do this sometimes
every once in a while. I take two days off so we can make these little trips around Japan.
So we met in this trip that we did to Kagoshima. Kagoshima is in Noma. It's a katsu-bushi.
Ah, yeah, I've heard about it. Yeah. It's crazy because in Mas, we don't use katsu-bushi.
So it's, it's just for the sake of learning and to see how in some way this could be good
for the restaurant. At the end, I think learning about Japan is always good. Even if it's just
to learn about the profile of flavor, it goes, something of this goes to Mas. So I'm happy
with that. We also saw like how they did the black vinegar, which is also from that area
because it's very close to China in a way. Like China was the port where they arrived
to Japan. So they have this influence of the black vinegar and kurosu is in Japanese. And
also they have the sochu, which is the like sweet potato spirit. It's like an alcohol
made with sweet potato. They do it also sometimes with rice, sometimes with other types of potatoes.
That's also very interesting. So every place in Japan has its own personality and they
have their own ingredients and they're special for something. We just Google also in Niigata,
it's a little more to the, to the West where they have a whole other variety. They're special
for rice. They're very good at like harvesting chili peppers as well. They have a lot of
different kinds of things in Niigata. So it's, it's endless. Japan literally is a small
island, but it's endless. You can go visit places and know new stuff every, every single
week. So that's very exciting. You mentioned you, you're not using katsuobushi. What other
or what are the constraints of mass? Yeah, not constraints in the way that we cannot
use because it's a rule. It's just, I, I try to avoid very Japanese oriented flavors because
I think that's not what the people come to mass. For example, I don't know, wasabi or
katsuobushi. Sometimes like a soy sauce in a very present way, you know, like a lot of
let's say what other ingredient like miso also like in a very strong presence. We, we've
used miso sometimes in some sauce, but they're always like a background of Mami, but never
like on, on, on, on front. So that's, we're just trying to avoid to fall into this thing
because a lot of foreign yourself, they come to Japan and they get really excited with
the flavors and it's like, okay, I'm going to use you, I'm going to use this. I'm going
to use my, my own soy sauce. And he's like, I think that's why you have to avoid that.
So they already pretty good at it. And there are so many places doing it very well. Don't,
don't get on that land because that's not our space. It's a matter of differentiating
yourself and also respecting, you know, like it's just a true respect for, for what they're
doing. And it's like, I'm not there. I need 10 years at least to understand how you use
it. So I'm not going to come here in the first few years and think that I, I'm able to do
it. Right. So, so yeah, those are the things that we try not to touch.
You also mentioned on your day off, you've been to some of the best restaurants in the
world. What are your highlights here in Japan that you have visited?
Well, I like a lot of Japanese food, like by Japanese food, I mean, I like bashocku,
which is like kind of a kaiseki, but it's mainly, it's not as poetic, right? Like kaiseki
is more about the season.
So you were saying, uh, washocku? Yeah, yeah. Like, uh, the restaurants I usually go like
washocku, which would be kind of a kaiseki, but a little less, uh, poetic. It's more about
the food and the techniques and the products. And I've been, for example, Fuji, this is
in Toyama. This is for me, the best washocku I've been in my life. They are using the best
products. And I went in, in, in February, which is the season of the, of the crab, suwagani,
and also the booty season. So I had like, I think one of the best meals of my life. Also
here in Tokyo, I like Miyo-Yaku as well, which is a little more pure. Uh, he's doing something
really innovative inside of Japanese food. He looks super traditional. He's respecting
all the boundaries, but at the same time, he's innovating in the techniques that he
uses inside of the food for a chef. I think is very important. Uh, a little bit more innovative
on the Japanese side is Noda. Noda in Harajuku, he's like a, a young chef who trained abroad,
like in, in some other countries and, and in France. And he's doing like Japanese food
with his own perspective because he was outside. So this is very interesting. And sushi as
well. Like you, you have the, the big names, uh, here in Japan, the big names are really,
really good. You know, it's not like, uh, they're, they're just, they overhype. No,
like sugita for me was one of the best sushi experience of my life. So, uh, I, I went to
the big names, Sugita, Sugita, Saito, you have Arai, you have a Mamoto, or you have
a Mitani that we have one Mitani just in front of on Masasuo. Um, those are the big ones.
So we're entering now the building where Masasuo, what can you tell us about this building and
this whole complex? Yeah. Restaurants in Japan, they're everywhere. Like, uh, you can find
them in any spot in the subway. You can find them inside of office buildings. Like this
is just the basement of a, of a hotel and office building. And in this basement floor,
you can find like seven fine dining restaurants. I think we are sharing, uh, between them all
like six Michelin stars. Um, and it's every same floor. Yeah. Yeah. It's very, it's very
common to see this because, um, you'll find like a niche, not like people that knows that
this area is known for the restaurants. Like inside is the same. And also you can get a
little bit of this maybe in some places in, in a Sabudai and in Omotesando. But, um, but
yeah, it's just a floor with fine dining restaurants. Like over here we have Chiune. This is a almost
like only members restaurant where if you are not a, you're not member there, you cannot
make reservations. This happens a lot in, in Tokyo. And we'll, over here we have a Mas.
There's a Michelin sign. Yeah. It's a small place. Like people get surprised sometimes.
They expect that when they come, they think it's a big investment that we come to Japan
and it's not a matter of investment. It's more about like what people is just over here.
Okay. It doesn't make sense sometimes to have a big place if, if you're not able to give
what people is expecting. Right. So it's very just to something that will meet the expectations
of the, of the customers. And that's it. Yeah. Over here, people understands that, you know,
like even Michelin, like, uh, you will say that a restaurant with these proportions,
why should it has two stars? You don't have enough space. You don't have the, all the
luxury stuff that we're used to, but the Japanics is different. Like that doesn't matter where
they're just focusing on the food and, and what it's important. Okay. Nice. Let's take
a look at the place. Or we're still in a Mizen plus. So it's, it's kind of crazy, but we
just arrived here and we have the, the matter table where we show our customers when they
arrive this, the proven ingredients are curated by matter matter initiative, our research
center back in Peru. And we, we make a brief explanation of these ingredients, um, before
they try it. Right. So they, they know what type of things greens were, where they're
gonna be eating at. Uh, for example, you have here like the charcoal, this is an edible
clay from the Andes. We also have the copa Sue, the Macambo and the cacao, which belong
to the same family of cacos. Uh, we have the true no, which is a freeze dried potato from
the Andes. Uh, we also, we bring a shot from the Amazon. We've been so serious from, from
the Andes as well. Uh, we have the pie chair as an inspiration. No, we have the, the patches
are gigantic, I'm a sonic fish or the arafaima or in some places. Yeah. Correct. Uh, we have
green coffee from Cajamarca in Peru. Also one of the best coffee in the world. Some
Brazilian nuts. So people, sometimes they don't really think this is Peru. They, when
they think about Peru is just, uh, chili peppers, limes and onions. But, um, but over here is
much more than that. You know, we're just, uh, digging into the, into the, the, to the
real Peru. This is something that people don't know about. So that's why it's so interesting
to come here and experience that.
That's it for this week's episode of potluck food talks. If you like what we're doing,
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