Hi everyone, welcome to pot luck food talks.
I'm here with my man, the love song returns, aka Phil Walter.
I'm Eric and we're going to talk about leadership in kitchens.
It's something we know you have requested.
So, what's the deal with leadership?
What do you have to say about it, Phil?
I don't know.
I know my style of leadership definitely changed.
My arm's not as strong anymore as it used to be.
I haven't thrown a sauce pot at anybody in a long time.
You know, it's a complex topic, you know, because, for example,
like on this last trip to Japan, I visited Mas in Tokyo,
which is like the brother restaurant of Central in Peru,
and it's run by Santiago Fernandez, who is the first Venezuelan chef
to get two Michelin stars.
He's eight years old.
He got two stars right away from the beginning.
I was reluctant to go there because I wanted to go only to Japanese restaurants
at the beginning, but then, first of all, I already booked an interview with him,
and then it was just because of the interview I should go to the restaurant.
And also, at the end of the day, it's a very territory-driven kind of cuisine.
So, like, even if it's Peruvian, their focus, they work with Japanese products
in a completely different way that no Japanese is working that way.
So that's also a very interesting approach.
But in any case, going back to leadership, I saw him to be like a very down-to-earth guy,
like very calm, also the way you would see him interacting inside of this restaurant
where the kitchen is open, and you could listen to him communicating with the chefs
and also going into the kitchen and doing some things himself.
And everything in a very calm tone, even, that I would say if you wouldn't know,
you wouldn't realize that he was the head chef of the whole operation.
You could see him as just another worker, and I think that's a very interesting quality to see in a chef.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, those qualities that you just described,
I think they're super crucial, and they're probably some of the more difficult ones
for young chefs becoming head chefs or leaders.
I feel like a lot of people think that they have to, a lot of people are overcompensating.
They think that leadership is being really direct and really straight and really firm
and being like, no, this has to be like this now, you know?
But it's not like that at all. It's interesting to think about what makes people respect you.
Like, what is it actually that has to happen so that you have a team around you
that just intrinsically have respect for you and take you seriously in many regards,
not just professionally, but personally also?
And what sort of environment are you creating, right?
For me, the perfect environment is an environment where everybody has a respectful communication
and also where it's fun. I mean, it's not just the only issue that it's fun, right?
Because obviously, you're at work. You want to achieve something, there has to be some pressure.
But this pressure should be fun. With fun, I mean, it should feel good.
And everybody should know where they're heading,
and everybody should, to a certain degree, identify with where they're at.
I find it very difficult, like in the past, not like that right now, in my kitchen,
with people who just want to clock in, clock out, right?
But then again, that's also fine, you know?
That's actually like, now that I'm talking about it, you know, I used to be sort of like,
man, I can't work with these people. Like, everybody has to be passionate.
Everybody has to be as passionate as me. And everybody has to care as much as me.
That's just not realistic.
It's not realistic. It's never going to happen.
And now, I would say less and less as time goes, like maybe 10, 20 years ago,
that would be kind of realistic. But I would say nowadays, it's impossible.
Like, nobody wants to be in a kitchen anymore.
Yeah, but it's kind of cool to make an effort towards like changing that.
And I really do feel like it's going to come back.
Because, for example, for me, you know, we've been able to do certain things
that are really, really good, right?
And I'm kind of like, well, how can we make cooking a more attractive profession?
Because cooking is a really beautiful profession, right?
Absolutely. Yeah.
All the aspects that made it shit, right?
It's kind of like, well, how can we get around it?
Right? I don't want anybody to be working 12 hours.
Right? Anybody. All my chefs, they work 8 hours, maybe sometimes 9 hours,
when it's like really chilly and they stay longer and blah, and then I'm already like,
man, you've got to go home, you know, like, please go.
Everybody gets like two days off in a row.
Usually all my chefs have the same schedule every week,
so they always have like the same days off.
And I try to give them as much like what they want as possible.
Like, for example, when I write a schedule next to each name,
I have their like preferences of when they want their days off.
Some people want the weekend, some people want during the week,
some people want like Sunday, Monday.
Some people want their days together, some people don't want their days together.
And if then, you know, you do something, you have an environment that's not abusive.
And that's like, of course, there's a little bit of stress, but not like bad stress.
There's a sort of sense of we want to achieve something, we want to progress.
So if you have a good environment and then you get paid fairly,
like just like any other job, you know, why wouldn't you want to cook?
It's a really, really great profession.
Yeah, I think that's one of the key elements that drives people away from kitchens
is like this environments where you have this crazy chef that also it needs to be said that,
for example, this that I just mentioned, this way Santiago behaves,
or I can also think of the opposite very easily, you know, like and 20 examples come from my mind.
But I've seen, you know, chefs like a very respected three mission and star chef here in Spain
that he would snap the fingers to the whoever, like just to, you know, like to give a message
or this in the dining room, dude, like people having dinner
and he's snapping the fingers to waiters just to get their attention.
And these people don't realize how bad of an image they're projecting to the diners, you know, like,
because then you see like, wow, that's be horrible to work here, you know, like,
and that's also very important if you have like these places where everybody,
they're like this robotic soldiers that only they say yes, because they have to without thinking about it,
you know, like all this kind of environment, people will notice, you know, especially if it's an open kitchen,
you know, if I'm in a place where I see that the waiters or the chefs, when you interact with them,
the you feel some sickness in the air, that's super negative, I feel.
Well, 100%. And I mean, it's a lose lose situation, you know, it's so like a lot of people, they have this like,
I mean, definitely, it used to be like this in restaurants, and I mean, it still is a lot of restaurants where
they try to create this image on the front, and then they have this really destructive behavior in the back
with the kind of justification of, well, we want to be up here, right?
That's why we have to have this attitude. But it's like, I never understood it.
I remember even, you know, when we were working together, I did not understand our head chef's approach at all,
because he was very proud. I mean, very proud, proud in a toxic way.
But I remember him saying a few times like, oh, these guys are all pussies,
and the entre-meteor only lasts like three to six months, because it's so tough, blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, why? Like, what's the point of that?
And then I remember reading an interview with Chad Robertson from Tartine Bakery.
And like, he said like, most of the guys were there for like five years plus, you know?
And I was like, man, that must be so nice, having the same team coming in.
Everybody knows what they're doing. They've done it for years. Everybody's like super professional about it.
But at the same time, they have a nice environment, you know? Everybody's relaxed about it.
And I never understood, I was like, why isn't that the goal?
How can that not be the goal, to create a really sustainable environment?
Your team wins because they have stability, they have a job that they like,
where they feel like something's happening, where they're learning, they're progressing, they're getting paid, right?
And you, like, the more consistent your team is, the better your quality is going to be.
And the more consistent your quality is going to be, the less work you have also.
Because how fucking stressful, if I imagine like teaching a new chef every three months, the section, I'd be like, fucking hell.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Also, like the tone of communicating, because I do understand that there are points where perhaps you have to raise your tone, right?
Like, I won't say like, no, you should never ever raise your tone. I mean, maybe not raising your tone.
Sometimes it's just repeating the same thing like five times, like, this has to be like this, ABC, blah, blah, blah.
This has to be like this, ABC, you know, like, which can also be frontal, but not necessarily disrespectful.
I mean, there are going to be those kind of discussions where you have someone that says like,
well, but I used to work somewhere and we used to do it like this and it's, no, but here we do it, ABC, like this way.
So like, also knowing how to handle that, but I think that there is nothing more beautiful than seeing a function in kitchen where nobody's raising their voice.
And I've seen that like in an events kitchen where they're delivering like 400 covers and everybody is like, it feels like it's a hospital, you know,
where everybody's chilled and working quietly and everybody and everything is flowing.
I mean, that should be the whole, you know, like, no, not this super loud kitchen, everybody's screaming, everything feels like you're in a battle, you know, like,
I think, but there's also people that like that, you know, like, and they strive towards that approach and style.
Yeah, no, absolutely. I, for example, think that if it's like that, like you just said, where you have to get loud, it's like a battle.
If the service is like a battle, then you didn't do your prep right.
And with your prep, I don't just mean making the sauce, cutting the vegetables, picking the herbs, I mean, setting up your section,
organizing the kitchen in a way where the processes of the dishes, like the actual logistics of how the kitchen functions in an organic way is wrong.
And if that happens, if there's like a lot of hiccup and you're like, come on, where the fuck is this?
I need five more of this. And they're like, ah, you know, it's like, okay, well, maybe they're not the problem.
Maybe the way that you have implemented this dish in the kitchen with all the other shit that they have going on at the pickup, you know, yeah, maybe that's wrong.
Like, maybe you need to rethink that. The menu design is wrong. If you are.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Maybe you have a section that has to do this, this, this, this, and then you make a, hey, I have this really cool new dish.
And then they need four pans to pick up, but they only have like three fires.
And it's kind of like, well, that's not their fault. They're just trying to make it work like a decision that you as a head chef made.
And yeah, so I think like it's really important to detach from the situation and look at the whole thing. Right.
And with the like getting loud thing, it's like, I remember there's this, you know, this little comic book about a love pass and Lapeche. Have you seen that?
No, no, I've seen only like snippets of it, but not the whole thing.
It's really, really nice. It's really like worth getting. It's a really beautiful little book that's kind of delves into, into this little universe that is Lapeche.
And I got it very like, like 10 years ago. And there's a part in it where it's basically like a little painted, like a little drawn interview with one of the chefs.
And she talks about how it is to work with, and she said, oh, like, he never gets angry.
You just look at you and say, madam, you were at your best today.
She was like, oh, it gives you the sense of disappointment. And she said, she was like, yeah, that's way worse than if you would get angry.
And that, that always stayed in my mind somehow, because I also, you know, like I think back to the beginning times of when I first became head of a kitchen with agony, because I still like feel bad about the way that I treated people sometimes.
But I know, I know nowadays that it was just, it wasn't because of the people, it was just because of my professional inability to deal with the situation in a better way.
Because I hadn't learned yet.
I think that's also like a lack in culinary education.
There are no leadership classes and there are things that I learned later because I had some courses or whatever that had leadership modules.
And also I would see the things that are taught there are the things that you see in great leaders or great managers.
And it was like, oh, okay, this is something that can be taught, but it's just not.
For example, I can think of a time I was working in this kitchen.
We were just two in the kitchen and this girl just returned from her holidays.
And she was being really messy.
She wouldn't focus and I wasn't tired of that kitchen and I would just give instructions very calmly.
I wouldn't scream or anything, but it was like this goes here, that goes there.
So I wouldn't stop.
It was like they see you, they say, at some point she broke and started crying.
And I was like, I thought about that for a long time.
And I remember talking with someone about this and they told me, yeah, you had zero empathy.
That was the problem.
And I think that that's really something that has to be personalized, customized towards each individual.
It's not like a generic thing that you treat everybody equal.
Everybody's different. Everybody has its own natures.
There are people that you can't talk like that and that's it.
There are people that you have to be softer.
At the end of the day, it's as you say, how can you treat them that they appreciate and respect you for the way you're treating them?
And that's key for someone to stay long in the team.
Yeah, 100%. 100%.
It's like that.
What you just said, you know, like for me, I could only in the beginning accept what I knew and what I experienced and what worked for me also,
which in the Michelin star world was do or die.
Right. Either you do or fuck off.
You know, I kill you.
And if you ask why, it's because I say so.
Exactly.
And if I say something, I just want to hear, we chef and that's it and nothing else.
Yeah. And that's something that I still have sometimes problems with.
If somebody like if I say, hey, please do it like this and they say why.
And sometimes there's situations where I'm like, man, I wish you would just do it and not ask me.
But then you remember that you are there to explain.
Like you are there to give them the information.
Right. And they the fact that they come to you, they ask why is good.
Obviously, when it gets to a point where it's just like, why?
But you know, like it's kind of like maybe just do it and you'll find out.
Right. I remember like Danny Lasser in Mugarritz.
Or was it Jorenz? No, I think it was Jorenz actually production.
He was like, you can come to me as many times as you need and ask me the same question.
You don't have to be scared of me at some point, Gorg.
I explained it to you 20 times.
I'll explain it to you a hundred times if I have to.
Well, Jorenz is actually an example of once I was working in the production section with him.
I remember this guy came.
It was a Norwegian guy and he wouldn't speak Spanish.
So and Jorenz, his English back then was pretty bad.
So it was like he would explain that like in really, you know, like exaggerated way of this goes here, here.
And I remember it really impacted me that he explained the same thing like six times in a row.
Exactly the same thing.
This goes here. This here. This here.
You know, like and I was like, of course, you know, like you need this person to perform in a specific way.
So you need to give them the information, as you say.
Yeah, absolutely. You need to be approachable all the time also, you know, like sometimes I have a bad day.
I have a lot of stuff that's going on outside of the kitchen.
Also, as a head chef, you know, I need to deal with events department, the finance department, you know, blah, et cetera.
And so sometimes somebody comes to you and they're like, hey, hey, do you have a second?
And I just want to be like, no, no, I don't.
You know, very rarely I do also. I say not right now.
Like when I'm in service, you know, for example, I'm like, no, you have to wait.
Like right now I'm sending food.
But otherwise, you know, I'm like already heading to a meeting and somebody stops me says, hey, do you have a second?
I need to ask you something.
And I think it's really important, even though it's difficult not to be like, oh, yeah, OK, fine.
But like, hurry the fuck up, you know, I really try to make an effort to be sort of like, yes, of course, you know, of course you can ask me something.
And even though it's something, even though there's a mistake happened, right.
I'm like, hey, my my sauce split or whatever, and you're like kind of like a fucking hell, you know, you can't be like that because you're creating an environment where people don't want to come to you.
And people are doing you a favor by bringing you to the problems they make.
They're taking your job.
They're making your job easier because otherwise you would have to fucking scan the whole kitchen.
And if it's a kitchen as big as mine, that's impossible.
It's absolutely impossible.
For me, it's like really it's like I should be happy when somebody comes to me and said, hey, I think I fucked this up.
What do you think?
And that's good.
Yeah, because if they do so, yeah, exactly.
You're giving them enough confidence to approach and say that because I mean, we've seen chats where you would never go and tell them you fucked something up.
You would find a way just to correct it with your resources.
Absolutely. And that often results in bad results, especially when you don't have the experience.
Also, you're filtering out problems before they appear because like I always try to tell people sort of like it doesn't matter if something goes wrong.
The only thing that really is a problem is if we don't notice and it's service and it doesn't get filtered out in time.
Like it can go, you know, everything needs to pass through the filters.
First, it needs to pass through your own filter.
Imagine you're a commie, you make a dressing, right?
You taste it. That's filter number one. Right.
Is it good? Is it right? Is it tasty? Et cetera.
Then you chef the party, then the sous chef, then the head chef plating it or whatever, you know, it's like filter after filter after filter.
And if nobody notices a mistake in there and it ends up at the customer, that's a problem.
Anything before that is not really a problem because we did our job, we called it in time.
Even if it's in service and we still have time to kind of fix it, it's not that much of a problem.
If it happens every day, then it's a little bit of a problem, but it's better than scenario A. Right.
Yeah. Yeah.
And yeah, with like I mentioned at the beginning, but one of the most fascinating and interesting things for me is also kind of like, how do you get people to actually have real respect for you?
Like you mentioned earlier, kind of saying like, oh, you know, like when you tell somebody, it's like, why should I do this?
Like, oh, because I tell you so.
I had a situation the other day where I saw a restaurant manager doing exactly that.
Restaurant manager of like 40 years of age. Right. So not a child.
He did exactly that. It was kind of like, if I say something, I want you to do it and not question me.
And it reminded me of one of my first sous chef jobs.
I was in London. I was like 22 and I had exactly the same situation.
Like one of the, I had this really bratty French girl who like just never wanted to do anything.
Every time you told her something, she'd like roll her eyes and be like, oh, fuck this guy, you know.
And I had come straight from Mugarritz and then Rio again. Right.
And I was there. And so I came to her and I was like, you know, I asked her to help me with something because she had time.
And she was like, why should I, why should I help you?
You know, and I was like, what the fuck are you talking about?
Like, and she was like, I don't, I don't see the point why I should do things that you say.
And I was like, man, I'm the fucking sous chef here. Like, why are you arguing with me?
And the head chef at the time, you heard that and he was like, what are you doing?
You know, and I did not understand it.
I was like, man, I'm just asking her to help me with something.
She has time. She has a mise en place then.
And, but that's not the point, you know, like that, that wasn't the point.
And it took me, it took me a while to get that because for me, I was like, right.
You know, to me, it made sense. I was like, I'm the sous chef. You should listen to me.
For me right now, like if you tell me that story, the way you're telling it, it's something, also something I wanted to mention earlier.
Precisely that, precisely putting your rank on the table.
Like I'm the head chef or I'm the sous chef or I'm the chef, the party or whatever.
I think that's a mistake.
Yeah, 100%.
Yeah.
100% and it's never going to work.
Nobody gives a shit about what it says on your contract.
Nobody cares really at the end of the day.
Like maybe in the beginning, but when shit gets real, when situations happen, nobody cares.
Like it doesn't matter what it says on your paper.
It matters what experience people have and your rank can even be negative.
Like what do I mean?
It's like if you're a sous chef and I'm thinking, for example, of like Max, you know, Max from Margot.
Oh yeah.
Yeah. Imagine that sort of attitude for a sous chef.
Then you kind of think, man, you are sous chef, but yet you come in late.
You only have a fucking complaint.
You give the tasks that are uncomfortable to other people.
Right.
You always talk in a tone of authority and power, even though you don't have it.
But you fantasize about having it and you express yourself that way.
Yeah.
Horrible attitudes for sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
And then your rank in quotation marks, right, is something negative, right?
Because it's much more negative if you act like that, if you're a sous chef than if you're a demi chef, right?
Better people are kind of like, well, you know, whatever. Fuck it.
But the higher you rise, the more fragile it is.
And that guy was, by the way, a demi chef, which is also funny.
He was, yeah.
I mean, nobody would get hired as sous chef there, like just from the get-go.
Yeah.
It's a really fickle sort of equilibrium, right, of like being part of like the front line and like doing the dirty work.
But at the same time, you can't just do dirty work because you have management shit to do.
And you also have to give jobs away.
That's your whole fucking job.
Like you have to delegate and you have to organize and manage.
But at the same time, you somehow have to do the work yourself.
It's a very, very fine line between that.
Because if you only detach yourself and you only delegate, nobody's going to really respect you.
You know, they might respect you a little bit for delegating really, really well and making sure everything works nicely.
People can respect that.
But and also, you know, like if you throw yourself in the shade, you only do the dirty work, you know,
but then you're going to lack in other aspects of your job, which is the organization.
You cannot organize well if you are just stuck with your hands in the dirt.
It's not possible. You need to be able to detach.
In my opinion, you have to strike a fine line.
You know, I mean, it's really important that like a manager jumps in and demonstrates why they are doing what they do.
And everybody should look at it and be sort of like, oh, wow.
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