Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. We're here at Noma, Kyoto, and I'm with Cristina
Mejías. She's a gastronomic scientist, the project manager, leading Noma projects. You're
also an environmental scientist, right?
I started environmental science, but I have to say I haven't finished the degree yet.
It's something that I started when I first started studying at Basque Culinary Centre
and did the first two years and then got into work and moved to Copenhagen and that made
it a bit more difficult to continue.
Okay. You did your last year internship at Noma Labs or was it before that?
I studied in Basque Culinary Centre. I did my degree on gastronomy science and I got
product development and food technology programme. In 2019, it was my third year in university.
I joined a fermentation lab for around five months for my annual internship programme.
Who was at the lab back then? David Silver?
It was a bit of a mix because at that point David had just had a surgery, a back surgery,
so he was out on a leave and at that point it was mainly Jason in the lab, at least when
I joined for the first two months. I think it was only Jason, me and Ezio, another intern
that was with us. Then actually it was the month when Kevin joined us as well as another
colleague Diego. They were both joining because a month later Jason was flying back to the
States and then at the same time David was rejoining. It was a moment where there was
a lot of moving pieces going on in the lab.
It was a fermentation lab, right? Where Kevin is working now.
Yes.
So basically what this does is creating the ingredients that are then used in the dishes.
In the kitchen, yeah. You know, Noma, like, and for me one of the most exciting things
about Noma or when coming to Noma for the first time, something that really surprised
me was that you could barely find any salt in the kitchen. And as a cook, it's like,
salt is gold, no?
Of course.
Of course you get to understand why we don't use salt that much in the front kitchen because
we use so many different condiments and fermented products. Some fermented, some not. Oils and
different ingredients to then actually flavor the dishes instead of actually using straight
up salt. And yes, that's what fermentation lab focus on. Developing all these different
condiments, sauces that then will flavor, I would say round up all the Noma flavors on
the final dishes.
Yeah, I remember in the dinner, you could feel like this Japanesey condiment thing across
many dishes, but like probably the koji that is used in many of the base products. So that
all comes out of the fermentation lab.
And many of them for sure. Then we, of course, we have some different reductions and sauces
that of course the kitchen developed.
But most of our sauces contain some kind of miso, tamari reduction, garum, lacto-fermented,
rice koji water or something like that, that it's previously made in the lab.
So but you're working at Noma projects, which is again a different thing. What is it? Do
you take products from the fermentation lab to scale them up and industrialize them or
what is exactly the role or the vision of the project?
It goes a little bit that way. The idea of Noma projects started even when I was, I remember
when I was back in 2019, when I was in the lab, it was something that we were already
growing in a way. You could, I remember Rene talking about how he would love to have a
fermentation shop where people could buy all these different ferments that we had in the
kitchen. In the end, we're not inventing thousand or hundred different condiments that
we use every menu, but we have our, let's say cabinet of products that we have been
developing over many years that we use them in different ways across each different menu.
So there's many ingredients that have been with us for the past 10 years and are still
key ingredients. Like for example, I would say mushroom garment is still one that in
every single menu, almost we can find a black currant wood oil and so on. During COVID when
we had to slow down and stop the entire activity of the restaurant, I think that was one of
the moments where they decided, okay, now it's actually a good time. We have time to
rethink how do we want Noma projects to be. It's still a project that we're constantly
rethinking and shaping in many different ways because for us Noma projects is kind of a
funnel to launch new projects that are coming out of Noma. We are scaling up many different
ferments, but as well, we're also bringing up to life products that might not be fermented.
There are definitely a lot of new projects coming up, but for example, I mean, throughout
these last years, we started launching mushroom garment, which was a completely unknown product
and again, a very risky choice. No one really knows what to expect when buying a mushroom
garment. How is it going to taste? How can I use it? Because no one really has ever bought
a garment before. And from there we then went with rose vinegar, another key ingredient
we have been using throughout many different seashells, a black currant wood oil for the
forages, vinegar red. Dashi reduction was a product that was actually developed during
our pop-up in Japan last year. And that was then launched as a way to share a little bit
of our experience in Japan with the rest of the world, with those that cannot make it
to the restaurant every season. It's very vegetable oriented, isn't it? In a way, for
sure. We are not, I mean, it's like Noma, we're not a vegan company, but we love to
work with plants. Yeah, I mean, is that like the epicenter of the new Nordic movement,
which is very vegetable driven? So for us, definitely vegetables, herbs, plants, flowers,
they have a really key and important role. Even seaweeds, seaweeds have become more and
more a key ingredient in our menu. But again, we always have a seafood season where we're
serving fish and or game and forest where we have some meat and so on. But what Noma
projects definitely wants to promote is or what the key message from René was when we
started launching Noma projects was we want to share all these ingredients that help us
make our food in the restaurant so tasty so that other people can make the easiest way
possible really tasty food at home. And hopefully, well, his dream would be that everyone would
eat more plant based or have a more variety diet. Yes, without the limitations or like
with everyone's each person's decisions. No, or when we were at Noma, we got this souvenir,
which was a little bottle of wild rose vinegar, which is amazing, by the way, I did like a
drink with raspberries and maple and it was incredible. But yeah, what about that, like
foraging and wild products? Are they even scalable? Like wild herbs or wild roses or
these kind of things? They definitely have a limitation and it's something that we keep
a lot into consideration at Noma projects. We do have products that we can scale up in
a bigger volume like mushroom garum. It's something mushrooms are available all year
round. But for us, it's also really important to be able to share ingredients that might
only be available for a few months and maybe only for a few people. And that might be a
seasonal product. But that for us, it's an incredible ingredient to be able to share
with the rest of the world. Yeah, so there are like this limited edition of many of the
products. We have three different categories, stable products, which are those that we can
kind of produce almost throughout the entire year. Again, rose vinegar has become a stable
product, but it's something we can only produce X amount of bottles. We only have about three
weeks to harvest all the as many rose petals as we can. And then it's over. And how is
the harvesting process? Do the team go to the... Yes, we help pick everything by hand.
We have our own foraging team in-house, same as Noma. And we collaborate as well with the
Noma team, but they are very busy. So these are different teams, but they operate in the
same building or not even in the same building? We're actually five minutes walk distance,
one from each other. I would say we have different departments within the two companies and we
need to collaborate very much in between projects. For example, even with the test kitchen or
with maybe someone, for example, this year we had Mario, one of the fermentation lab
team, developed a barbecue sauce. This means that throughout the production process, he's
a key member on like helping out scale up these recipes that he has developed. So it
means that maybe for a period of time, then he's coming and checking and participating
alongside our production team and Noma projects on the scaling of a product he has developed
and so on with all the different products and different team members of the... Okay.
And also the other restaurants like Popple, they also use Noma project products. Yes,
for sure. Yes. Popple is also using many of our ingredients. I mean, I think something
that it's essential for us and because not only we sell the products on bottles, whenever
we produce a product, it means the same product that is being bottled, it's the one that is
served in the restaurant as well. Okay. So for example, if we are producing a black
cornwood oil for Noma projects, we produce the same black cornwood oil that we then also
deliver to the restaurant. This way, what we're also trying to do is take as many things
as we can out of a production schedule for the kitchen, help them also have more time
to focus on, again, more technical oriented tasks rather than bigger scale products.
What about Popple, we had this incredible vegan burger, which was like pressed mushrooms.
Is it something also to be expected to be scaled up or it's too complicated to scale
up? I think at the moment, this particular mushroom,
it's not something we are planning on scaling up. Right now, we are focusing mainly on products
that we can mainly package in bottles and that can have a stable. So we're not thinking
at least for the time being, because many projects and many ideas come up every three
to six months. But at the time being, it's mushroom, it's the confit mushroom is not
something we are considering. Amazing. And now what's your role? You're a
project manager? I am in charge of everything that has to
do with actually launching a product. My title right now, it's Head of Production and Development.
The way we work is sometimes maybe either René comes up with a product or a concept
that he wants to work with, or maybe we lay out the calendar. As I was talking before,
we have three different categories. We have the stable products, which are usually products
we have been producing now for the past two years. We have seasonal launches and then
we also have taste, but subscription. Taste, but subscription is a platform where at the
beginning the way it started was we needed a place or we needed a group of people that
could test our ingredients before actually launching a product.
Because one of the biggest challenges again is that many people don't know what a garum
is or a kelp salt. Or how to use it.
Exactly. We needed a platform where we could share all the different crazy ideas we wanted
to launch and get them kind of approved by a group of people in a way and get their feedback
and understand, okay, what are the challenges? Because many times for us, we have been working
with these ingredients, with these flavors for a long time. The chefs know how to use
a tamari and what happens if you put it in a pan versus if you not. That's not something
that it's so obvious when we launch it to regular consumers.
We needed this platform to collect as much feedback as we could and then understand,
okay, which products are taste, but favorites? What are the issues regarding this product?
Maybe people don't know how to use it or is it that the name is confusing or maybe
they don't think it's tasty.
Yes, of course. You say mushroom garum or plum tamari and people will go like, what
is that?
How is it going to taste? How am I even going to use it?
And how does it work? You get a kit by mail and you taste it and you get feedback?
Taste buds have been changing from year to year. It's a program where you get four
deliveries a year, one package every three months, and you get between three to four
products on each package. They are usually full-sized products and then you have a link
to a complete different portal where you can get some information about how to use the
products, how we use them, where did they even come from?
I guess the profiles for this are like regular home cooks, not professional chefs.
We do have some chefs, of course. It's not something we are closing up. We are opening
up the subscription and whoever wants can join it. I would say that the taste buds group
is usually, I would say, foodies or people that are somehow connected to the food industry.
And only Denmark or?
Almost the entire world, but we have certain countries that we're not shipping yet. So
it's mainly US right now that we're shipping. I think Canada, Australia, Europe, Norway,
and Japan that we're shipping.
Oh, nice. In Japan as well. Well, there's an incredible fermentation culture here. We
visited a white tamari brewery and it was mind blowing.
For us and in many ways, whenever we develop different ingredients, it's very much always
looking into traditions and trying to, and I think it was almost 10 years ago or even
more probably that Renee came to Japan for the first time and spent some time actually
learning from the culture, the restaurants, the cooking techniques and so on, and bringing
it back to the restaurant. And for us, whenever we develop a new product or even if we look
back at our miso, it's inspired. It's always inspired in different traditions and understanding
how is miso made here in Japan and how can we extrapolate these to our Nordic ingredients
and how can we then maybe tweak a little bit to what noma's flavors not taste like. Because
for example, if we take a miso, of course miso here are mainly made with soybeans. In
Denmark, we don't have that many soybeans, so we're mainly using split peas. In noma,
we don't usually work with a lot of salt content. Renee really prefers lower salty and not so
salty products and not very sweet products. So whenever we developed our misos and so
on, it was a lot about also seeing, okay, how can we tweak all these different things
so that it follows a traditional method, but as well meets up these noma flavor profiles
that we usually work with. Our misos, for example, they tend to be less sweet, a little
bit less salty, and as well a little bit more acidic than traditional misos. But same as
with misos, whenever we've been looking into teas, it's not something we are making up
or we're inventing a new thing, but we are looking backwards at, okay, how different
traditions are producing or working with these different techniques and how can we apply
them to our Nordic ingredients?
You mentioned teas. Is that also something that noma projects is going into, like alternative
teas with other kinds?
It's something that we are definitely serving in the restaurant. It's something we've been
exploring over the past year and we actually launched a small taste buds project with a
tea sample. I think it was last year. Again, for us, it's about exploring many different
things right now and for noma projects, seeing, okay, we are just getting started. We don't
know yet which are the products that people love the most and can make the most use of.
Right now, again, taste buds, it's this platform where we are throwing in as many different
concepts and trying to understand, okay, this one that we didn't expect, it seems to work
really well. Or maybe we even had a lot of products that we love and we thought, okay,
this one is the one we're going to share with taste buds. And then we get the feedback that,
okay, maybe they don't know how to use it or they don't really understand the flavor.
I remember on the first taste buds subscription, we shared these black garlic candies. It was
something that we love black garlic. It's this really fruity, of course, it's a garlic-based
acidic product. We shared it in one of our first taste buds. And I remember we launched
this product thinking it was going to be something people would love. And we got a lot of feedback
of this is not a candy, it is not sweet enough. So we definitely get surprised in many ways
by the feedback that we get from our consumers. And sometimes our favorite products end up
not being their favorite and maybe the one we didn't expect ends up...
Yeah, I guess that happens a lot also in the music that the musicians, the one they think
is going to be the hit, it's not. And the one they never thought that's the one. We
had an incredible non-alcoholic pairing at Noma. Is that also something you're thinking
about to scale up?
It's definitely a dream because we love the non-alcoholic pairing and we love all the
teas that goes into it. It is a really complex product. And also the thing that makes so
special our juice pairing right now in the restaurant is that it's made daily. So it
is definitely something that we are thinking of, okay, how could we share in some way different
things or different sprinkles of our juice pairing in a way that we... For us, it's
really important to make sure that whatever product we share, it meets Noma's standard.
We always say we're not going to share a product that we would not serve ourselves or that
it's not. And sometimes, for example, just the means of pasteurizing a juice changes
completely the flavor profile of...
Of course.
With the juices right now, it's definitely something we're considering a little bit of
the drink program, but it's also a complex product to ship because the amount you need
to buy with the shipping included makes the actual serving very expensive.
Of course. Yeah. Because a condiment can last a bottle for a whole year while a bottle is
just a drink and that's it.
Exactly. So it's definitely... We are thinking a lot about many different perspectives for
each individual product. And again, right now, we are mainly focusing on condiments.
This year, we've launched actually our first sweet product, which was Pumpkin Praline.
It was also something that was served in, I think, two years ago. First time was on
the birthday cake in Noma. And it was something that we couldn't miss out on sharing. And
we launched it first through taste buds. It got really good feedback and we just launched
it publicly to see how people like it. Is this something that maybe should become a
staple or not? And so on, we keep on evaluating and launching. If the launch is successful
and we get really good feedback, then it moves into the next step of the funnel, in a way.
And what about the price? Will there be affordable products from Noma products for the big public,
let's say?
I mean, right now, I think our price ranges from 150 kronas, which is around $20, I think,
to... I mean, we've made very looksable...
I mean, it's not cheap, but it's something anybody can pay if they want to.
Definitely. So I think that compared to a Noma experience where you need to pay for
the tickets, the trip, and then the seat...
We did that two months ago. We had the whole experience.
I think our aim of launching Noma projects was to make sure that anyone could buy a product
and try it at home for sure. And try to make the Noma experience a bit more...
Yeah, accessible.
Accessible, yeah. In a way for whoever cannot make it to the restaurant and get a taste
of, okay, this is one of the ingredients that we use in the restaurant and that you can
cook with at home. And we'll give you a little bit a slight idea of, okay, what are the Noma
flavors?
Of course, we're not yet and not in a place where we can produce and sell products at
$4 or anything. And again, I don't even know if we will ever manage to do so. Because whenever
we produce our products, most of the ingredients we get, we always try to source from the best
quality producer.
At the moment, we are very much, even though we are scaling up, it is very much hand-hold
production. We don't have a streamlined huge tanks where we just throw everything in and
the product comes out. We have a production space that is actually one of the biggest
challenges is that we're producing many different types of products in just one space. Usually
a food industry company would mainly focus on one category, either roasting coffee or
making charcuterie or cheese or whatever. In our space, we're talking about, we're
making vinegars, garlands, misos, pralines. We are producing koji for all the different
fermentation processes, oils. We've been also harvesting and producing teas as well for
both for Noma, but as well for our taste buds, salts, spices, and so on. So it means our
production space needs to be really flexible. Of course, we have some big equipment like
our bottling machine and different pieces of equipment that for our staple products
we need in order to produce at that scale. But we're not producing thousands and millions
of units where we need a streamlined production. And that makes, of course, that our products
have a higher production cost than they would have if we just give our recipe to another
company and ask them, okay, produce as many as you can, bottle everything, and let's put
it into the thing.
Yeah. And I guess if you do that, it would have to have a different brand or everything.
For us, it's really important to make sure that the quality of our products and the flavor
of our products are, as I said before, Noma standards. And the only way we can ensure
that at the moment is by making sure we are the ones producing these products and we have
full control over the process.
Okay. Right now we're in Japan. Did the Noma project also come to Japan or only the restaurant?
Last year we did came for a research project and there was an event going on. And this
year we decided to focus on our production space back in Copenhagen, where we at the
moment have a lot of things going on. So this year only a few team members have been able
to come from the Noma projects team for a couple of weeks and then go back.
Okay. How has the trip been so far?
Very good. I mean, Japan is amazing always. It's such an inspiring culture. You always
have something to learn when you come here. It's just, again, about being open and listening
and learning as much as you can and just observing everything that is going on. The culture is
so different that it's really, I think it's really beautiful to see and admire the differences.
Is there any highlight that you could share from this trip or the previous one, something
that really inspired you?
I think for me actually, from in general, whenever we've been coming to Japan, one of
the most surprising cultural differences is the way perfectionism related to craftsmanship
goes together. For example, and this example, I could extrapolate it to many different producers
because it's something that I've just seen repetitively happening across different places
we have visited. But for example, we've been very closely working with the Katsubushi producer.
And I remember he was telling us how for him it was really important because innovation
in Japan, when it's related to maybe a craftsmanship, it's sometimes not seen.
It's very taboo, right?
Exactly.
You don't touch the sacred Katsubushi.
No, also innovating or changing something from the process, it's sometimes seen as a negative
aspect. And we've even seen it in, we had this tea producer that stopped working with
pesticides. The entire community around him almost made him a stranger in a way. Not crucified
him, but made him a stranger, didn't think he was in his right mind or like, no, in a
way, why would you do this? We've always used pesticides. And actually he has a really,
really beautiful story because the reason why he stopped using pesticides was because
all of a sudden he started getting, he couldn't properly move his legs and he didn't know
why. And I don't even know how he found out that it was related to the pesticides he
was using, that he was having like numbness on the arms and legs. It was the actual usage
of pesticides was actually influencing his health. And he stopped using pesticides because
of that and then made up a philosophy around, I remember he was telling us, right, and now
I don't remember, there's this martial art that he really loved and that he would extrapolate
the principles of this martial art to the way he was cutting the plants. So it was really,
really beautiful how he then took his own philosophy and put it into the way he was
farming, producing the tea and so on. And the same we've seen with many different producers,
as I said, for me, that was one of the most shocking things, to see again how this Katsubushi
guy he was telling us, before I innovate, I need to make sure I make the best Katsubushi.
And he actually got an award for best, I don't know what year, but best Katsubushi from Japan.
And then out of there, then he considered, okay, now I've demonstrated that I can produce
traditionally the best way.
It's like Picasso, like he first proved that he was like a great classic train painter
before he started making crazy children paintings and everything.
And with him, I remember we started this collaboration, Thomas, one of our team, he started collaborating
with him on seeing, okay, how can we now apply Katsubushi making into plant-based and doing
a tomato bushy, pumpkin bushy, corn, like all kinds of vegetables. And I remember he
was telling us he would need to keep it hidden from his family so that they wouldn't see
it. And actually I think his dad found it one day and thought it was fish that was rotting
and threw it all away and they had to start over again. And now it's something that they
feel very proud of. And I know he's mentioned that he's now working with insects. So there's
definitely something really particular about innovation and craftsmanship and the tradition.
Yeah, that was really interesting. Also the degree of sensitivity. Like yesterday we were
in a sake brewery and we had a water tasting of the water that is being used for the sake.
There was a long conversation about the texture of the water and the softness it has. And
people would take their time to talk about it and really feel it and get into it. And
it requires an effort. Also the same with the rice. When they open the rice. And for
us Westerners, it's hard to get into. You have to put some effort to appreciate it.
It's not easy to get the level of appreciation they have.
Yes and perception. Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. Because they get into what
they are doing to a level of respect. What you were saying, sensitivity, observation.
And I think that it's actually super beautiful. It's something that I can even see it even
and maybe it is strange. But even with the bus drivers, it's about feeling so proud
about the work you're doing every day and making sure you try to do it the best way
possibly. And with all the proudness of your own task or position.
Like you're rolling society somehow, right?
Yes, even if it is making sake or if it is making tofu or driving a bus every day or
cleaning the bathrooms. It's just about making sure you get so much into it. I don't know,
go so much into detail, perfectionism and so on. It's something that blows my mind every
time I'm in Japan.
And food-wise, do you have a highlight? Something you try that blew your mind?
I mean, so many things. I feel like it's really difficult to pick only one.
First thing that comes to your mind?
I mean, this year, from these last trips, something that I really, really love and I
keep on going back. We had an amazing experience that I would definitely highly recommend to
anyone. It was something that I actually missed out last year on. Thomas, also, he's like
Renes right-hand and he supports with Test Kitchen and across many different projects.
He organized last year a dinner at one of his favorite restaurants, which was Sushi
Jin in Toyama. And I missed it last year. So this year, I think I took it with even
more expectations and so on. And I really, really enjoyed it. We had such a good treat.
I mean, everything was amazing. The food, the sake, the place, the attention, the detail.
So that was a really, really great experience. But I mean, from that, I can take you like
the sake that we tried last year in Terada, Honke, were incredible. We had this sake also
with them. It was an unfiltered sake that they made with brown rice. That was incredible.
But I mean, it's the experience of being there and seeing how they do things and then getting
to try their products that makes the entire experience so special, in a way, I think.
Well, Kristina, thank you so much.
That's it for this week's episode of Potluck Food Talks. If you like what we're doing,
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