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Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. We're here at Noma, Kyoto, and I'm with Cristina

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Mejías. She's a gastronomic scientist, the project manager, leading Noma projects. You're

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also an environmental scientist, right?

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I started environmental science, but I have to say I haven't finished the degree yet.

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It's something that I started when I first started studying at Basque Culinary Centre

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and did the first two years and then got into work and moved to Copenhagen and that made

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it a bit more difficult to continue.

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Okay. You did your last year internship at Noma Labs or was it before that?

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I studied in Basque Culinary Centre. I did my degree on gastronomy science and I got

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product development and food technology programme. In 2019, it was my third year in university.

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I joined a fermentation lab for around five months for my annual internship programme.

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Who was at the lab back then? David Silver?

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It was a bit of a mix because at that point David had just had a surgery, a back surgery,

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so he was out on a leave and at that point it was mainly Jason in the lab, at least when

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I joined for the first two months. I think it was only Jason, me and Ezio, another intern

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that was with us. Then actually it was the month when Kevin joined us as well as another

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colleague Diego. They were both joining because a month later Jason was flying back to the

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States and then at the same time David was rejoining. It was a moment where there was

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a lot of moving pieces going on in the lab.

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It was a fermentation lab, right? Where Kevin is working now.

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Yes.

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So basically what this does is creating the ingredients that are then used in the dishes.

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In the kitchen, yeah. You know, Noma, like, and for me one of the most exciting things

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about Noma or when coming to Noma for the first time, something that really surprised

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me was that you could barely find any salt in the kitchen. And as a cook, it's like,

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salt is gold, no?

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Of course.

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Of course you get to understand why we don't use salt that much in the front kitchen because

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we use so many different condiments and fermented products. Some fermented, some not. Oils and

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different ingredients to then actually flavor the dishes instead of actually using straight

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up salt. And yes, that's what fermentation lab focus on. Developing all these different

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condiments, sauces that then will flavor, I would say round up all the Noma flavors on

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the final dishes.

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Yeah, I remember in the dinner, you could feel like this Japanesey condiment thing across

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many dishes, but like probably the koji that is used in many of the base products. So that

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all comes out of the fermentation lab.

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And many of them for sure. Then we, of course, we have some different reductions and sauces

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that of course the kitchen developed.

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But most of our sauces contain some kind of miso, tamari reduction, garum, lacto-fermented,

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rice koji water or something like that, that it's previously made in the lab.

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So but you're working at Noma projects, which is again a different thing. What is it? Do

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you take products from the fermentation lab to scale them up and industrialize them or

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what is exactly the role or the vision of the project?

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It goes a little bit that way. The idea of Noma projects started even when I was, I remember

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when I was back in 2019, when I was in the lab, it was something that we were already

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growing in a way. You could, I remember Rene talking about how he would love to have a

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fermentation shop where people could buy all these different ferments that we had in the

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kitchen. In the end, we're not inventing thousand or hundred different condiments that

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we use every menu, but we have our, let's say cabinet of products that we have been

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developing over many years that we use them in different ways across each different menu.

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So there's many ingredients that have been with us for the past 10 years and are still

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key ingredients. Like for example, I would say mushroom garment is still one that in

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every single menu, almost we can find a black currant wood oil and so on. During COVID when

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we had to slow down and stop the entire activity of the restaurant, I think that was one of

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the moments where they decided, okay, now it's actually a good time. We have time to

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rethink how do we want Noma projects to be. It's still a project that we're constantly

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rethinking and shaping in many different ways because for us Noma projects is kind of a

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funnel to launch new projects that are coming out of Noma. We are scaling up many different

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ferments, but as well, we're also bringing up to life products that might not be fermented.

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There are definitely a lot of new projects coming up, but for example, I mean, throughout

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these last years, we started launching mushroom garment, which was a completely unknown product

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and again, a very risky choice. No one really knows what to expect when buying a mushroom

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garment. How is it going to taste? How can I use it? Because no one really has ever bought

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a garment before. And from there we then went with rose vinegar, another key ingredient

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we have been using throughout many different seashells, a black currant wood oil for the

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forages, vinegar red. Dashi reduction was a product that was actually developed during

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our pop-up in Japan last year. And that was then launched as a way to share a little bit

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of our experience in Japan with the rest of the world, with those that cannot make it

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to the restaurant every season. It's very vegetable oriented, isn't it? In a way, for

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sure. We are not, I mean, it's like Noma, we're not a vegan company, but we love to

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work with plants. Yeah, I mean, is that like the epicenter of the new Nordic movement,

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which is very vegetable driven? So for us, definitely vegetables, herbs, plants, flowers,

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they have a really key and important role. Even seaweeds, seaweeds have become more and

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more a key ingredient in our menu. But again, we always have a seafood season where we're

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serving fish and or game and forest where we have some meat and so on. But what Noma

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projects definitely wants to promote is or what the key message from René was when we

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started launching Noma projects was we want to share all these ingredients that help us

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make our food in the restaurant so tasty so that other people can make the easiest way

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possible really tasty food at home. And hopefully, well, his dream would be that everyone would

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eat more plant based or have a more variety diet. Yes, without the limitations or like

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with everyone's each person's decisions. No, or when we were at Noma, we got this souvenir,

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which was a little bottle of wild rose vinegar, which is amazing, by the way, I did like a

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drink with raspberries and maple and it was incredible. But yeah, what about that, like

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foraging and wild products? Are they even scalable? Like wild herbs or wild roses or

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these kind of things? They definitely have a limitation and it's something that we keep

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a lot into consideration at Noma projects. We do have products that we can scale up in

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a bigger volume like mushroom garum. It's something mushrooms are available all year

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round. But for us, it's also really important to be able to share ingredients that might

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only be available for a few months and maybe only for a few people. And that might be a

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seasonal product. But that for us, it's an incredible ingredient to be able to share

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with the rest of the world. Yeah, so there are like this limited edition of many of the

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products. We have three different categories, stable products, which are those that we can

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kind of produce almost throughout the entire year. Again, rose vinegar has become a stable

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product, but it's something we can only produce X amount of bottles. We only have about three

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weeks to harvest all the as many rose petals as we can. And then it's over. And how is

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the harvesting process? Do the team go to the... Yes, we help pick everything by hand.

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We have our own foraging team in-house, same as Noma. And we collaborate as well with the

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Noma team, but they are very busy. So these are different teams, but they operate in the

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same building or not even in the same building? We're actually five minutes walk distance,

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one from each other. I would say we have different departments within the two companies and we

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need to collaborate very much in between projects. For example, even with the test kitchen or

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with maybe someone, for example, this year we had Mario, one of the fermentation lab

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team, developed a barbecue sauce. This means that throughout the production process, he's

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a key member on like helping out scale up these recipes that he has developed. So it

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means that maybe for a period of time, then he's coming and checking and participating

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alongside our production team and Noma projects on the scaling of a product he has developed

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and so on with all the different products and different team members of the... Okay.

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And also the other restaurants like Popple, they also use Noma project products. Yes,

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for sure. Yes. Popple is also using many of our ingredients. I mean, I think something

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that it's essential for us and because not only we sell the products on bottles, whenever

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we produce a product, it means the same product that is being bottled, it's the one that is

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served in the restaurant as well. Okay. So for example, if we are producing a black

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cornwood oil for Noma projects, we produce the same black cornwood oil that we then also

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deliver to the restaurant. This way, what we're also trying to do is take as many things

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as we can out of a production schedule for the kitchen, help them also have more time

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to focus on, again, more technical oriented tasks rather than bigger scale products.

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What about Popple, we had this incredible vegan burger, which was like pressed mushrooms.

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Is it something also to be expected to be scaled up or it's too complicated to scale

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up? I think at the moment, this particular mushroom,

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it's not something we are planning on scaling up. Right now, we are focusing mainly on products

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that we can mainly package in bottles and that can have a stable. So we're not thinking

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at least for the time being, because many projects and many ideas come up every three

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to six months. But at the time being, it's mushroom, it's the confit mushroom is not

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something we are considering. Amazing. And now what's your role? You're a

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project manager? I am in charge of everything that has to

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do with actually launching a product. My title right now, it's Head of Production and Development.

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The way we work is sometimes maybe either René comes up with a product or a concept

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that he wants to work with, or maybe we lay out the calendar. As I was talking before,

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we have three different categories. We have the stable products, which are usually products

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we have been producing now for the past two years. We have seasonal launches and then

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we also have taste, but subscription. Taste, but subscription is a platform where at the

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beginning the way it started was we needed a place or we needed a group of people that

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could test our ingredients before actually launching a product.

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Because one of the biggest challenges again is that many people don't know what a garum

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is or a kelp salt. Or how to use it.

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Exactly. We needed a platform where we could share all the different crazy ideas we wanted

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to launch and get them kind of approved by a group of people in a way and get their feedback

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and understand, okay, what are the challenges? Because many times for us, we have been working

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with these ingredients, with these flavors for a long time. The chefs know how to use

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a tamari and what happens if you put it in a pan versus if you not. That's not something

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that it's so obvious when we launch it to regular consumers.

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We needed this platform to collect as much feedback as we could and then understand,

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okay, which products are taste, but favorites? What are the issues regarding this product?

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Maybe people don't know how to use it or is it that the name is confusing or maybe

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they don't think it's tasty.

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Yes, of course. You say mushroom garum or plum tamari and people will go like, what

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is that?

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How is it going to taste? How am I even going to use it?

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And how does it work? You get a kit by mail and you taste it and you get feedback?

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Taste buds have been changing from year to year. It's a program where you get four

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deliveries a year, one package every three months, and you get between three to four

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products on each package. They are usually full-sized products and then you have a link

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to a complete different portal where you can get some information about how to use the

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products, how we use them, where did they even come from?

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I guess the profiles for this are like regular home cooks, not professional chefs.

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We do have some chefs, of course. It's not something we are closing up. We are opening

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up the subscription and whoever wants can join it. I would say that the taste buds group

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is usually, I would say, foodies or people that are somehow connected to the food industry.

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And only Denmark or?

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Almost the entire world, but we have certain countries that we're not shipping yet. So

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it's mainly US right now that we're shipping. I think Canada, Australia, Europe, Norway,

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and Japan that we're shipping.

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Oh, nice. In Japan as well. Well, there's an incredible fermentation culture here. We

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visited a white tamari brewery and it was mind blowing.

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For us and in many ways, whenever we develop different ingredients, it's very much always

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looking into traditions and trying to, and I think it was almost 10 years ago or even

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more probably that Renee came to Japan for the first time and spent some time actually

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learning from the culture, the restaurants, the cooking techniques and so on, and bringing

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it back to the restaurant. And for us, whenever we develop a new product or even if we look

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back at our miso, it's inspired. It's always inspired in different traditions and understanding

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how is miso made here in Japan and how can we extrapolate these to our Nordic ingredients

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and how can we then maybe tweak a little bit to what noma's flavors not taste like. Because

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for example, if we take a miso, of course miso here are mainly made with soybeans. In

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Denmark, we don't have that many soybeans, so we're mainly using split peas. In noma,

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we don't usually work with a lot of salt content. Renee really prefers lower salty and not so

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salty products and not very sweet products. So whenever we developed our misos and so

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on, it was a lot about also seeing, okay, how can we tweak all these different things

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so that it follows a traditional method, but as well meets up these noma flavor profiles

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that we usually work with. Our misos, for example, they tend to be less sweet, a little

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bit less salty, and as well a little bit more acidic than traditional misos. But same as

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with misos, whenever we've been looking into teas, it's not something we are making up

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or we're inventing a new thing, but we are looking backwards at, okay, how different

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traditions are producing or working with these different techniques and how can we apply

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them to our Nordic ingredients?

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You mentioned teas. Is that also something that noma projects is going into, like alternative

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teas with other kinds?

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It's something that we are definitely serving in the restaurant. It's something we've been

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exploring over the past year and we actually launched a small taste buds project with a

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tea sample. I think it was last year. Again, for us, it's about exploring many different

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things right now and for noma projects, seeing, okay, we are just getting started. We don't

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know yet which are the products that people love the most and can make the most use of.

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Right now, again, taste buds, it's this platform where we are throwing in as many different

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concepts and trying to understand, okay, this one that we didn't expect, it seems to work

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really well. Or maybe we even had a lot of products that we love and we thought, okay,

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this one is the one we're going to share with taste buds. And then we get the feedback that,

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okay, maybe they don't know how to use it or they don't really understand the flavor.

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I remember on the first taste buds subscription, we shared these black garlic candies. It was

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something that we love black garlic. It's this really fruity, of course, it's a garlic-based

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acidic product. We shared it in one of our first taste buds. And I remember we launched

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this product thinking it was going to be something people would love. And we got a lot of feedback

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of this is not a candy, it is not sweet enough. So we definitely get surprised in many ways

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by the feedback that we get from our consumers. And sometimes our favorite products end up

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not being their favorite and maybe the one we didn't expect ends up...

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Yeah, I guess that happens a lot also in the music that the musicians, the one they think

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is going to be the hit, it's not. And the one they never thought that's the one. We

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had an incredible non-alcoholic pairing at Noma. Is that also something you're thinking

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about to scale up?

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It's definitely a dream because we love the non-alcoholic pairing and we love all the

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teas that goes into it. It is a really complex product. And also the thing that makes so

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special our juice pairing right now in the restaurant is that it's made daily. So it

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is definitely something that we are thinking of, okay, how could we share in some way different

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things or different sprinkles of our juice pairing in a way that we... For us, it's

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really important to make sure that whatever product we share, it meets Noma's standard.

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We always say we're not going to share a product that we would not serve ourselves or that

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it's not. And sometimes, for example, just the means of pasteurizing a juice changes

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completely the flavor profile of...

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Of course.

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With the juices right now, it's definitely something we're considering a little bit of

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the drink program, but it's also a complex product to ship because the amount you need

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to buy with the shipping included makes the actual serving very expensive.

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Of course. Yeah. Because a condiment can last a bottle for a whole year while a bottle is

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just a drink and that's it.

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Exactly. So it's definitely... We are thinking a lot about many different perspectives for

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each individual product. And again, right now, we are mainly focusing on condiments.

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This year, we've launched actually our first sweet product, which was Pumpkin Praline.

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It was also something that was served in, I think, two years ago. First time was on

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the birthday cake in Noma. And it was something that we couldn't miss out on sharing. And

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we launched it first through taste buds. It got really good feedback and we just launched

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it publicly to see how people like it. Is this something that maybe should become a

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staple or not? And so on, we keep on evaluating and launching. If the launch is successful

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and we get really good feedback, then it moves into the next step of the funnel, in a way.

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And what about the price? Will there be affordable products from Noma products for the big public,

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let's say?

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I mean, right now, I think our price ranges from 150 kronas, which is around $20, I think,

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to... I mean, we've made very looksable...

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I mean, it's not cheap, but it's something anybody can pay if they want to.

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Definitely. So I think that compared to a Noma experience where you need to pay for

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the tickets, the trip, and then the seat...

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We did that two months ago. We had the whole experience.

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I think our aim of launching Noma projects was to make sure that anyone could buy a product

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and try it at home for sure. And try to make the Noma experience a bit more...

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Yeah, accessible.

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Accessible, yeah. In a way for whoever cannot make it to the restaurant and get a taste

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of, okay, this is one of the ingredients that we use in the restaurant and that you can

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cook with at home. And we'll give you a little bit a slight idea of, okay, what are the Noma

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flavors?

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Of course, we're not yet and not in a place where we can produce and sell products at

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$4 or anything. And again, I don't even know if we will ever manage to do so. Because whenever

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we produce our products, most of the ingredients we get, we always try to source from the best

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quality producer.

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At the moment, we are very much, even though we are scaling up, it is very much hand-hold

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production. We don't have a streamlined huge tanks where we just throw everything in and

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the product comes out. We have a production space that is actually one of the biggest

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challenges is that we're producing many different types of products in just one space. Usually

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a food industry company would mainly focus on one category, either roasting coffee or

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making charcuterie or cheese or whatever. In our space, we're talking about, we're

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making vinegars, garlands, misos, pralines. We are producing koji for all the different

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fermentation processes, oils. We've been also harvesting and producing teas as well for

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both for Noma, but as well for our taste buds, salts, spices, and so on. So it means our

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production space needs to be really flexible. Of course, we have some big equipment like

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our bottling machine and different pieces of equipment that for our staple products

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we need in order to produce at that scale. But we're not producing thousands and millions

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of units where we need a streamlined production. And that makes, of course, that our products

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have a higher production cost than they would have if we just give our recipe to another

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company and ask them, okay, produce as many as you can, bottle everything, and let's put

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it into the thing.

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Yeah. And I guess if you do that, it would have to have a different brand or everything.

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For us, it's really important to make sure that the quality of our products and the flavor

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of our products are, as I said before, Noma standards. And the only way we can ensure

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that at the moment is by making sure we are the ones producing these products and we have

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full control over the process.

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Okay. Right now we're in Japan. Did the Noma project also come to Japan or only the restaurant?

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Last year we did came for a research project and there was an event going on. And this

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year we decided to focus on our production space back in Copenhagen, where we at the

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moment have a lot of things going on. So this year only a few team members have been able

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to come from the Noma projects team for a couple of weeks and then go back.

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Okay. How has the trip been so far?

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Very good. I mean, Japan is amazing always. It's such an inspiring culture. You always

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have something to learn when you come here. It's just, again, about being open and listening

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and learning as much as you can and just observing everything that is going on. The culture is

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so different that it's really, I think it's really beautiful to see and admire the differences.

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Is there any highlight that you could share from this trip or the previous one, something

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that really inspired you?

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I think for me actually, from in general, whenever we've been coming to Japan, one of

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the most surprising cultural differences is the way perfectionism related to craftsmanship

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goes together. For example, and this example, I could extrapolate it to many different producers

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because it's something that I've just seen repetitively happening across different places

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we have visited. But for example, we've been very closely working with the Katsubushi producer.

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And I remember he was telling us how for him it was really important because innovation

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in Japan, when it's related to maybe a craftsmanship, it's sometimes not seen.

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It's very taboo, right?

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Exactly.

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You don't touch the sacred Katsubushi.

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No, also innovating or changing something from the process, it's sometimes seen as a negative

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aspect. And we've even seen it in, we had this tea producer that stopped working with

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pesticides. The entire community around him almost made him a stranger in a way. Not crucified

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him, but made him a stranger, didn't think he was in his right mind or like, no, in a

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way, why would you do this? We've always used pesticides. And actually he has a really,

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really beautiful story because the reason why he stopped using pesticides was because

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all of a sudden he started getting, he couldn't properly move his legs and he didn't know

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why. And I don't even know how he found out that it was related to the pesticides he

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was using, that he was having like numbness on the arms and legs. It was the actual usage

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of pesticides was actually influencing his health. And he stopped using pesticides because

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of that and then made up a philosophy around, I remember he was telling us, right, and now

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I don't remember, there's this martial art that he really loved and that he would extrapolate

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the principles of this martial art to the way he was cutting the plants. So it was really,

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really beautiful how he then took his own philosophy and put it into the way he was

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farming, producing the tea and so on. And the same we've seen with many different producers,

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as I said, for me, that was one of the most shocking things, to see again how this Katsubushi

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guy he was telling us, before I innovate, I need to make sure I make the best Katsubushi.

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And he actually got an award for best, I don't know what year, but best Katsubushi from Japan.

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And then out of there, then he considered, okay, now I've demonstrated that I can produce

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traditionally the best way.

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It's like Picasso, like he first proved that he was like a great classic train painter

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before he started making crazy children paintings and everything.

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And with him, I remember we started this collaboration, Thomas, one of our team, he started collaborating

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with him on seeing, okay, how can we now apply Katsubushi making into plant-based and doing

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a tomato bushy, pumpkin bushy, corn, like all kinds of vegetables. And I remember he

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was telling us he would need to keep it hidden from his family so that they wouldn't see

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it. And actually I think his dad found it one day and thought it was fish that was rotting

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and threw it all away and they had to start over again. And now it's something that they

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feel very proud of. And I know he's mentioned that he's now working with insects. So there's

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definitely something really particular about innovation and craftsmanship and the tradition.

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Yeah, that was really interesting. Also the degree of sensitivity. Like yesterday we were

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in a sake brewery and we had a water tasting of the water that is being used for the sake.

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There was a long conversation about the texture of the water and the softness it has. And

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people would take their time to talk about it and really feel it and get into it. And

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it requires an effort. Also the same with the rice. When they open the rice. And for

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us Westerners, it's hard to get into. You have to put some effort to appreciate it.

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It's not easy to get the level of appreciation they have.

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Yes and perception. Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. Because they get into what

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they are doing to a level of respect. What you were saying, sensitivity, observation.

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And I think that it's actually super beautiful. It's something that I can even see it even

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and maybe it is strange. But even with the bus drivers, it's about feeling so proud

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about the work you're doing every day and making sure you try to do it the best way

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possibly. And with all the proudness of your own task or position.

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Like you're rolling society somehow, right?

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Yes, even if it is making sake or if it is making tofu or driving a bus every day or

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cleaning the bathrooms. It's just about making sure you get so much into it. I don't know,

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go so much into detail, perfectionism and so on. It's something that blows my mind every

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time I'm in Japan.

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And food-wise, do you have a highlight? Something you try that blew your mind?

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I mean, so many things. I feel like it's really difficult to pick only one.

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First thing that comes to your mind?

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I mean, this year, from these last trips, something that I really, really love and I

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keep on going back. We had an amazing experience that I would definitely highly recommend to

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anyone. It was something that I actually missed out last year on. Thomas, also, he's like

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Renes right-hand and he supports with Test Kitchen and across many different projects.

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He organized last year a dinner at one of his favorite restaurants, which was Sushi

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Jin in Toyama. And I missed it last year. So this year, I think I took it with even

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more expectations and so on. And I really, really enjoyed it. We had such a good treat.

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I mean, everything was amazing. The food, the sake, the place, the attention, the detail.

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So that was a really, really great experience. But I mean, from that, I can take you like

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the sake that we tried last year in Terada, Honke, were incredible. We had this sake also

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with them. It was an unfiltered sake that they made with brown rice. That was incredible.

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But I mean, it's the experience of being there and seeing how they do things and then getting

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to try their products that makes the entire experience so special, in a way, I think.

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Well, Kristina, thank you so much.

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That's it for this week's episode of Potluck Food Talks. If you like what we're doing,

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make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. You can also find us

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on Instagram and TikTok as Potluck Food Talks. The show airs every Monday.