1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:11,440 Herzlich willkommen bei Pot Luck Food Talks, der ultimativen Sendung über die Welt hinter den Kulissen 2 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:17,200 der Gastronomie. Heute bin ich hier mit meinem treuen Begleiter Phil Schnübelmeister Walte. 3 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:23,480 Wow, I'm amazed. I'm very, very impressed. I knew German was good. I haven't heard you speak 4 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,080 German for such a long time. 5 00:00:25,080 --> 00:00:26,080 Yeah, me neither. 6 00:00:26,080 --> 00:00:27,080 Incredible. 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:28,080 It's been a while. 8 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,360 I kind of think that we should make this the default intro now. 9 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:32,360 Yeah, really? 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:33,360 That's how good it was. 11 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:34,360 Okay, okay. Thank you. 12 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:35,360 Thank you. 13 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:36,360 How are you doing? 14 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:37,360 Good man. Good, good, good. 15 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:39,560 It's been a hectic week. 16 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,160 Like most of them, you know, work, tours. 17 00:00:43,160 --> 00:00:44,800 But nice, fun. 18 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:51,960 So listen, I wanted to talk to you about something we talked when we were at Poppel, the Nohmas 19 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,000 Burger Place in Copenhagen. 20 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:01,200 When we were having this conversation about, first of all, we started talking about Ray 21 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:10,640 Gunn Rachel, this viral Be-Girl in the Olympics from Australia that opened like a huge debate 22 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:18,000 about, first of all, if Breakdance should be in the Olympics and about her performance 23 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:19,000 and this kind of thing. 24 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,520 So you shared some thoughts about that. 25 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,880 What did you exactly say back then? 26 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:28,400 I mean, I think it was a bit, I don't really remember what I said in that instance. 27 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,400 You know, the thing with me is that I sometimes say very impulsive things, right? 28 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:37,520 I get like a very strong opinion and I kind of defend it to the death. 29 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,440 And then when somebody asked me about it later, I'm kind of like, oh, I said that, well, I don't 30 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,880 see it that strongly anymore. 31 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:49,400 But like, I think it was the first time that Breakdance was in the Olympics, right? 32 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,040 Yeah, and apparently the last time as well. 33 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,040 Like, man, do it again. 34 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:55,040 It seems like it. 35 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,040 I mean, that's pretty crazy. 36 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:02,440 And I mean, since that happened, there have been so many details about this whole incident 37 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,000 coming up, you know, it's kind of like people sort of like, well, did she scam it? 38 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,000 Did she scam it the way into it? 39 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:14,120 But then came out that she was a Breakdancer and her boyfriend's like a Breakdance Instructor. 40 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,560 And when you see him Breakdance, it's like very similar style to her. 41 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:20,760 So it's kind of like, was it on purpose? 42 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,480 What I mean, come on, you know, it's like, I don't know, you know, I feel like it's such 43 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,960 a shame that there's like, because Breakdancing can be such an intense sport, that I feel like 44 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,320 it's such a shame that it got so misrepresented with now the repercussion. 45 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:37,440 So it's not going to be included in the Olympics, which I don't think is that big of a problem. 46 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,880 Because for me, I don't know, like, I'm sorry, maybe it's just not my scene, but I don't 47 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:43,960 think Breakdancing should be in the Olympics. 48 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:45,840 Like I'm all for Breakdancing competitions. 49 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,480 But like, the Olympics are the Olympics, you know, it's like something steeped in tradition. 50 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,560 And I don't know, I don't really see Breakdancing there. 51 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:54,560 How do you feel? 52 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:56,840 And now I agree with you. 53 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:02,720 And in my opinion, you know, I've been following hip hop culture for the last 20, 25 years 54 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,320 since I was like a little kid. 55 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,680 And especially rap battles, not so much Breakdance battles. 56 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:14,240 But I think that they're kind of like in the same family of competitions. 57 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,560 And for me, there is always a place for this outcast, for these outsiders that have like 58 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:23,800 a completely different style and do things that are against the rules and things the way 59 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:25,440 they shouldn't be done. 60 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:29,480 And I understand like in a hip hop context that makes sense. 61 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,720 But maybe not in an Olympic context. 62 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:40,720 You know, like, I think, I mean, this woman is like a respected big girl in the urban 63 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,360 dance community because her style and the way she does things. 64 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,720 But I understand you can't bring that to an Olympic context, is that there are different 65 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,440 rules and like a different frame. 66 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,120 And that's my opinion about it. 67 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,840 But then when we were talking about this, then you also mentioned that for you, martial 68 00:03:57,840 --> 00:03:59,880 arts shouldn't be in the Olympics. 69 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:02,200 Why was your opinion on that? 70 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,240 Well, that's like a whole topic, right? 71 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:10,080 I mean, it's not like I don't think that martial arts shouldn't be in the Olympics. 72 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:21,360 I very much enjoy watching martial art contests, but it is also a very old discussion whether 73 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:30,480 putting a martial art into a contest environment is changing and morphing the martial art itself 74 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,360 in its practice, because it is something different. 75 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:39,320 For example, if you take judo, right, which is, I mean, one of the grappling and judo and 76 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:43,400 stuff like that, is like one of the oldest grappling for sure. 77 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:52,560 Roman Greco grappling, yeah, is one of the original categories in the Olympics, right? 78 00:04:52,560 --> 00:05:01,120 And like Gigo Rokano, the founder of judo, wrote like a sort of manifest when he made 79 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:06,480 judo what it is, because judo just kind of like jiu-jitsu, it got derived from a more 80 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,640 sort of like larger martial art, that was, you know, the Japanese general martial art. 81 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:16,000 And he made the judo out of it by stripping weight unnecessary, just focusing on the throwing 82 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,840 and the neu-waza and stuff like that. 83 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:21,960 And he said that it should, in this manifest, he said that it should never be used in a contest 84 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:29,480 environment, because then you start, instead of starting to think about self-defense and 85 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:34,960 efficiency in that, in the martial art, you start thinking about how to score points, 86 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:40,320 how to hold points, how to stay ahead with points, rather than your opponent. 87 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,800 And the idea of a martial art, then gets lost, right? 88 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:48,040 And that is the whole idea, that's why it's like a controversial topic, whether you should 89 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,960 practice a martial art in a competitive environment or not. 90 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:57,440 On the other side, right, if you look at what in jiu-jitsu, if you look at jiu-jitsu practitioners, 91 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:02,800 people who compete in jiu-jitsu, they usually a lot better than people who don't compete, 92 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:07,200 just in general, because it's a completely different environment being in a competition 93 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,120 state and going against people than to be in practice. 94 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:14,880 In jiu-jitsu practice, you can spar against people full on, right? 95 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:19,720 It's not like you're just kind of making movements and stuff, you go full steam ahead. 96 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:26,560 But it's still different being in a dojo than being in a competition hall with fucking 97 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,600 20 different people ready to kill you, right? 98 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,920 Und then basically push yourself in a completely different way, it's very, very intense. 99 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:39,360 Anybody who's experienced it, it's a really, I feel like it's a really reality altering 100 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:44,640 experience, because you as a modern person are never in that environment, really. 101 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:45,640 Of course, yeah, yeah. 102 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:51,000 And the reason I'm asking this question, so we're not starting here like a sports podcast. 103 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,400 I'm digging it, though. 104 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:58,080 So how would you extrapolate this into the culinary profession? 105 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:06,320 Do you think getting into competitions or getting obsessed about getting some prizes or some recognitions 106 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:12,440 or these kind of things, do you think this somehow corrupts your culinary Bushido or 107 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:13,440 something like that? 108 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,000 Oh, that's a very intense question, I think. 109 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:21,560 Because the first thing when you ask this question that comes to mind is obviously what is the 110 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,840 most well-known prize out there is Michelin Stars, right? 111 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:30,920 Also, we've all, I mean, both you and me, we've seen kitchens that just cook what they 112 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:31,920 want to cook. 113 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:36,720 And I've also, I'm pretty sure we've both also seen kitchens that cook to get Michelin 114 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:38,760 Stars, right? 115 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:46,120 And it is obviously, if you're really strict, it is not an honest expression of what you 116 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:47,680 want to do. 117 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:54,320 If you were just cooking, right, without keeping in mind any sort of rewards or anything, you 118 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,600 know, you would have a completely different expression. 119 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:03,080 But so many of the things that we do, maybe even subconsciously, are dictated by a very 120 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:11,720 certain pattern that we think we need to fall into in order to please a certain someone. 121 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:12,920 All right? 122 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,800 And you don't like what I've, for example, I used to work with this chef relatively briefly, 123 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:23,600 but I took a lot out of it called Junior Yamasaki. 124 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,600 And he was a Japanese chef in, well, he is a Japanese chef. 125 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:32,440 He was in London back then, Yorban Koya, which was first an Udon Noodle Bar. 126 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:38,400 And then later became much, much more well-known for his daily specials, his Blackboard specials, 127 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:46,000 because he would cook very creative dishes with British ingredients using Japanese technique 128 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:47,520 and the Japanese mindset. 129 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,320 And it was fucking crazy. 130 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,160 Like it was so good. 131 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:55,640 And he just did what he found aesthetic and nice. 132 00:08:55,640 --> 00:09:01,880 And he very much didn't want any fancy shit, any blah, he didn't want to please anybody. 133 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,920 He just wanted to make really authentically good food. 134 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:10,240 And it was some of the most creative and cool food that I've seen at that time. 135 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:14,400 I think that's the highest position a chef can aspire. 136 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:19,200 But at the same time, it's a most difficult one, because to get there, you need to be in 137 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:25,560 a context where you don't have owners pushing you to work under some kind of frame. 138 00:09:25,560 --> 00:09:30,760 Or it could be owners, it could be the style of the restaurant you're working. 139 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,720 So in that case, it has to be you. 140 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:41,200 And your restaurant is your dojo, and you're able to do whatever your search is, your path, 141 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,880 your expression of cooking. 142 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:44,880 Yeah, absolutely. 143 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:45,880 Right? 144 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:46,880 Absolutely. 145 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:51,000 The more I think about it, I'm definitely not doing that. 146 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,960 I'm definitely not at a point where I can, not that I think about it consciously, but 147 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:00,760 now kind of looking at what I'm doing right now, I can definitely not go off certain 148 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,840 Stigmas and parameters concerning food. 149 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:09,800 I think maybe that is a topic for deeper meditation, really, because kind of letting 150 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,880 go of how you feel things need to be. 151 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:18,360 And really, really stepping out of the picture and kind of thinking about, well, what is 152 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,200 the most important, what is the sensation? 153 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,320 I know a couple of chefs who cook like that. 154 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:32,560 For example, my friend Norbert, he often cooks like that, where you can see it's completely 155 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:40,760 not directed to be in any sort of frame, of fine dining, not fine dining, or French cooking, 156 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:42,200 or this cooking, or whatever. 157 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:48,320 Fuck that, it's just ingredient and craft and personal expression. 158 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:57,280 Yeah, and I also think another factor in that puzzle is your team, because sometimes you 159 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,920 want to do whatever the fuck you want, but you have like a sous chef or some other chefs, 160 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:08,760 they also have like their own views and opinions, and you're like working in a music band. 161 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:16,600 And in that context is also not okay to be the eccentric artist that wants everybody to 162 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:18,240 follow, right? 163 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:19,800 So that also plays a role. 164 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:25,960 So there are also these very mystical restaurants where there is only one chef working and 165 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:31,240 doing everything and doing whatever he wants, but that's also very, very difficult to find 166 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,200 and to do at the same time. 167 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:34,200 Yeah, definitely. 168 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,520 In like what you said earlier, it's like really difficult, depending on the environment 169 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:38,520 that you're in. 170 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,920 So, you have a small, like if you're starting out doing this, right, and you just want to 171 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:47,440 do what you want to do, you need a small restaurant where you can cook by yourself or like with 172 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,440 one or two more people. 173 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,880 And then you can really just kind of like, but that is a big risk also, right? 174 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,000 It's like, if you want to take that risk, it's crazy. 175 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,800 And then when people come and say, hey, what kind of food do you do? 176 00:11:58,800 --> 00:11:59,800 What do you say? 177 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:05,280 Do you say, hey, oh, you know, I just do whatever I feel, you know, like that's bullshit. 178 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:06,280 People can't work. 179 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,640 People function like that, people need a label. 180 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:09,640 Absolutely. 181 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:10,640 Yeah, that's something very important. 182 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,400 And that's something I learned when I was starting design. 183 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:19,440 It's, well, that this is what a brand teacher will tell you. 184 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,840 He will tell you that you can never do that. 185 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:27,480 You know, you can never like say what you just said, I do whatever I want, how I feel. 186 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:32,840 So people need to have like a label, as you say, of what you're doing. 187 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:37,640 And it comes to mind, for example, Lola, which is a restaurant in Copenhagen from Camila 188 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:38,640 Seidler. 189 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:44,520 And I haven't followed the restaurant so much, but when they opened and when I asked what 190 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,080 it is about, that's exactly what they would say. 191 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:53,440 It's like, it's a result of the travels we've had across the world. 192 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:59,280 You know, like, and that, if you say that for someone is very difficult to picture what 193 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:00,280 that is. 194 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,680 That's all a matter of marketing and communication and brand communication. 195 00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:11,040 I don't think if we see food as art, which I think it is, at least in this context and 196 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:15,320 other contexts, it's not, then you should be able to do whatever you want. 197 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:16,560 There are no rules, right? 198 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:21,720 But at the same time, you need to find somehow a way to communicate efficiently what you're 199 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:22,720 doing. 200 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:23,720 And that's very difficult. 201 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:24,720 Yeah, absolutely. 202 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:25,720 I totally agree. 203 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,920 And I think what you just said is really important because often we don't, we like chefs, we forget 204 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:30,920 about that part. 205 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:37,000 We think of this like creative expression and blah and this and that, but it's like as much 206 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:44,320 part of your job as this creative expression and the ideas and the culinary, like the idea 207 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:46,640 development and stuff like that. 208 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,720 You're in the end cooking for a customer. 209 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:56,640 And your job is that to provide it in a way. 210 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:01,920 It's just as important for you to be able to express yourselves creatively as it is for 211 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:06,080 you to put it in a context where it works for the customer and where people understand 212 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,440 your concept and people like it. 213 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,880 And people want to come in all the time so that you have enough customers to fill the 214 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:17,280 restaurant to pay your staff to pay for the ingredients so that you can keep doing the 215 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,680 thing that you're expressing yourself with creatively. 216 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:27,240 And a lot of times I feel like people take this creative expression as an excuse for 217 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:28,240 things not working out. 218 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:29,240 Right? 219 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:30,240 I'm doing this, I'm doing that. 220 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,360 It's kind of like, yeah, well, if you're not doing it in a way, it's great if you have 221 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,000 these like crazy ideas and it's like fulfilling you. 222 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,240 But the idea of a restaurant is not an ego man show. 223 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,520 You know, it's a, it's a organism that lives off each other. 224 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:45,520 Right? 225 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:50,960 Like, if you imagine these like little suckerfish that clean off the like the skin of a shark, 226 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:51,960 right? 227 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:57,920 If these little suckerfish would, instead of just eating like the impurities on the 228 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,040 skin, eat the fucking shark, there would be no shark left, right? 229 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,540 So it's like, and vice versa, if the shark would eat the fish, you'd have nothing to 230 00:15:04,540 --> 00:15:05,540 clean skin. 231 00:15:05,540 --> 00:15:06,540 Right? 232 00:15:06,540 --> 00:15:07,540 So it's like a, like an organism. 233 00:15:07,540 --> 00:15:08,540 It needs to be in balance. 234 00:15:08,540 --> 00:15:12,880 You can't just go crazy with your creative expression and do whatever the fuck you want. 235 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:18,160 You can, as long, like, as long as you keep pushing the boundaries of what you can sell, 236 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:22,320 how you can sell it, how you can market it, riding that wave, you know, like, for example, 237 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:26,360 like a take, I don't know, like, you know, El Buí, right? 238 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:31,120 When they started pushing it, you know, they were able to draw enough attention to keep 239 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,800 doing this and to get more customers in to keep. 240 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:40,320 Because like, if they would have just gone fucking full metaljacket and committed to 241 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:46,000 all the shit that they wanted to do straight away, like, without caring about how it was 242 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:47,000 perceived, right? 243 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,720 And it's okay to shock to a certain point. 244 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:54,720 But if you have no customers coming in, then you have no canvas to paint on anymore. 245 00:15:54,720 --> 00:16:02,560 El Buí is a very interesting example, because have you seen the posts lately from El Buí Foundation? 246 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:09,480 They've been posting, like, chronologically, the dishes they developed from the early 90s until 247 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:10,480 now. 248 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:19,600 My favorite epoch was when it was still Nouvelle Cuisine Catalan, somehow it was 92, 93. 249 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:26,360 And then you can see a very clear line starting in 94, which is where the first Buñecatalogue 250 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:27,520 starts. 251 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:35,320 And from then on, it's really very hard to define what it is, you know, because they 252 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:39,080 became very technical, but at the same time, they really were doing whatever the fuck they 253 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:44,400 wanted, you know, like, they could mix recipes and elaborations from all over the world, 254 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,360 combinations of flavor that were never combined before. 255 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:54,280 But you know, I would say there's also like a parallel between what El Buí was doing 256 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:59,680 and what was happening in other disciplines at the moment worldwide, like architecture 257 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,520 or graphic design, where everything got digitalized. 258 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:11,200 Und for that reason, there was like an overcharge of everything, everything was more and more 259 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,240 overloaded of elements and these kind of things. 260 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,440 And I think that's reflected on that cuisine. 261 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:21,800 But I mean, if you ask anyone about what El Buí is, it's very hard to define what it 262 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:22,800 is. 263 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,400 And for that reason, some smart journalists came up with the idea of molecular gastronomy, 264 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:28,400 that's what it is. 265 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:29,400 And that stuck. 266 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,480 And it stuck really well, because a lot of people, that's what they define about it. 267 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:41,760 Especially in Germany, people talk about molecular cuisine and there's a specific idea behind 268 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:42,760 that. 269 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,280 But I think El Buí is much, much more than that. 270 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:51,680 But at the end, you need to have that anchor for the audience to understand what it is 271 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:57,960 about or at least to have a reference to understand what you're approaching, what it is. 272 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:06,960 You know, again, Mugarets started using the label, they define themselves as techno-emotional. 273 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,560 So it's technical and emotional. 274 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,200 Emotional doesn't necessarily mean positive. 275 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:17,400 They can also give you negative emotions as part of the experience. 276 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:18,600 Mostly. 277 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:20,560 Which is controversial in itself. 278 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:26,880 But I would say pretty much the technical side is what makes them so interesting, especially 279 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:27,880 for chefs. 280 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:29,320 Yeah, for sure. 281 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,040 And it's kind of like, it's interesting, like thinking about that. 282 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:38,280 It's kind of like, oh yeah, somebody coined the term molecular gastronomy and suddenly 283 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:43,680 you had something that people could fantasize about what that means, right? 284 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,400 And like if you think about it, people really are like sheep in a way, you know? 285 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,840 You need to give them something that they can like follow, you know, in like a direction. 286 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:58,760 And I think the most elegant way, and probably also the most, like the nicest way, is if 287 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:04,160 you can give the broad majority of people, like how do I want to say this? 288 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:08,720 You can give them a general direction that's very shallow, right? 289 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:17,600 Where they can kind of delve in to what you're doing and be happy with it and enjoy it and 290 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,000 feel like, oh, I understand what this is. 291 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:25,800 But then there is some people who go a little bit more in depth because they're interested 292 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,920 in food or because the food kind of resonates with them. 293 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,200 And they kind of, because sometimes you have guests, they come and they just kind of understand 294 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,120 what you're trying to do, right? 295 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:37,280 And those are the best guests, right? 296 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:38,760 Those are the guys that we want to have. 297 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,360 Not that we don't want to have the other ones, but they're really kind of who understand 298 00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:44,440 what we want to do more and more. 299 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:49,080 And if you have this like general sort of like direction that people can go in and be happy 300 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:54,440 with and come to your restaurant and eat and enjoy it and leave, but you give the possibility 301 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,200 for those people who kind of really understand and resonate with what you're doing to go 302 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,480 more in depth, the sort of chosen few. 303 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:06,000 I think that's the ideal scenario, because if you're just sort of like, hey, either you 304 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,480 get it or you don't get it, that's also not very hospitable. 305 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:16,440 And hospitality, the sense of what hospitality is, I feel like often gets lost in these very 306 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,360 ego driven ideas of especially chefs, you know. 307 00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:24,600 But going again to the very beginning where we were talking about the Olympics and martial 308 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:32,320 arts and what I wanted to debate here around is the nature of competition among chefs or 309 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:39,640 restaurants, be it internally in a restaurant or between restaurants. 310 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:48,040 Do you think that there is a healthy point to that or getting away from that is the healthiest 311 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:49,920 or even to develop? 312 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:55,560 I do think when I work in very demanding environments, these restaurants were really, 313 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:56,560 really pushing. 314 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:01,600 I mean, one of the things we talked about when we were at Noma and one of the most impressive 315 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:07,760 things that you would see in the, you would see everybody was really pushing hard every 316 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:08,760 second. 317 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,760 Was no one looking around, not knowing what to do. 318 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,600 Everybody had like a specific task that you could see. 319 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:23,280 It required a lot of attention and they were executing calmly, but without stopping, right? 320 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:30,360 And I think putting yourself in those situations that makes you do things that you thought you 321 00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:35,120 weren't able to achieve is what makes you better as a chef. 322 00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:42,760 In my opinion, answering the question myself, I do think a healthy point of tension and 323 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:48,160 competition is necessary to grow as a chef. 324 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,280 100% agree. 325 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:55,280 I think there needs to be, it depends how you look at competition. 326 00:21:55,280 --> 00:22:02,200 If we imagine competition being a very angry and spiteful environment where chefs are trying 327 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:07,080 to be better than the next in a way, that's sort of like, oh, I'm going to show this person, 328 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,080 blah, blah, blah. 329 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:12,120 But I don't see that when I think about competition, especially in the kitchen environment. 330 00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:15,680 I think it's crucial for growth. 331 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:25,240 I think it needs to be an environment of positive reinforcement of inspiring each other in between 332 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:33,000 the team and pushing each other to be a better version of themselves every day. 333 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,760 Because there has to be a certain amount of friction for that to be changed. 334 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,960 And I don't mean friction in any negative sort of way. 335 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:41,460 It doesn't have to be negative. 336 00:22:41,460 --> 00:22:43,440 It doesn't have to be sort of like, oh, what the fuck is this? 337 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,040 You need to be faster, blah, blah, blah. 338 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:46,920 I don't mean that kind of friction. 339 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,720 I mean positive friction of sort of like, hey, look, what about this? 340 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:51,720 We can do this like this, blah. 341 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,680 Yeah, it's going to take a little bit more work. 342 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,800 Look, you can do it like this, blah, blah. 343 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:02,400 And then when people kind of see the outcome of these things, some of them, some people 344 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,080 will not want that. 345 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:05,880 And that's totally fine. 346 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,320 Not everybody wants to be in a state of constant improvement, because it takes friction, it 347 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,400 takes work, and it takes energy. 348 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,520 For me, it's the only way that I can work, because otherwise I get fucking depressed. 349 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,440 Otherwise I'd have an office job or something. 350 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,320 It doesn't have to be a huge step that you take every day. 351 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,560 And it doesn't have to be a huge expenditure of energy. 352 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,880 But there should be a slow and steady progress. 353 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:33,800 And the only way that I really like to work, I get really grumpy when it's like this also. 354 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,080 The only way that I really like to work is I have people around me that I can talk to. 355 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:42,400 I can look at things, I can say like, hey, how's the beef at the mall? 356 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,160 The beef, you mean like a competition beef? 357 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,040 No, no, no, no, the actual beef. 358 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:47,040 The actual beef. 359 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,040 How's the beef? 360 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,320 Who's killing who today? 361 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,760 No, but you know like this, how are the onions? 362 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,960 You know, just last week they were really spicy. 363 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:56,960 How are they today? 364 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,320 Is it still affecting the sauce, et cetera? 365 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,040 Hey, what's coming from the garden? 366 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,040 This and that. 367 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,600 And just a constant environment of sort of like, let's take the subject of cooking and 368 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,400 really look at it and keep looking at it and looking at it and making it better and better 369 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:11,400 and better. 370 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,720 And it's crazy, even sort of like the chef de parties that I have. 371 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:16,720 Right? 372 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:23,920 They're doing a decent job, but there's always something that you can look at and say, hey, 373 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:29,400 look, if we make the meringue a little bit different, instead of doing this, do it like 374 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,200 that, and just reduce the sugar a little bit and whip it a little bit less. 375 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:38,720 And then you see, then when you take the canal off the meringue, you have much smoother edges, 376 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,960 which means when you press the iron onto it, it kind of spreads in a more even way and 377 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,520 it's like these tiny details that make at the end of the day a really big difference. 378 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,640 If we're talking about competition, what are your thoughts on losing? 379 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,320 Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. 380 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:54,320 What about losing? 381 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,640 Eric, there's no losing in my dojo. 382 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,520 There's only winning in my dojo. 383 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,240 I mean my kitchen. 384 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:03,240 We kill losers. 385 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,840 I mean, what do we define as losing? 386 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:11,880 I mean, I was once in a business, in a meeting in a restaurant, you know, where they were 387 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,600 like the chef parties and, you know, and I don't remember what happened, but it was 388 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,200 definitely a situation where we lost. 389 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:27,200 And I remember me saying, like, it's also important to know how to lose properly. 390 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,920 And the owner of the restaurant was like, no, we never lose. 391 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:32,240 And they said that. 392 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:39,800 And I really think like embracing the feats when they come and learning how to learn from 393 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,920 them and how to improve from them, I think it's crucial. 394 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,160 And denying it is just denial. 395 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:53,440 You know, it's like Donald Trump denying losing the elections, like a little two-year-old kid. 396 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,080 And yeah, I think that's also part of growing. 397 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:03,040 And it also comes to mind the relationship between the bear, Karmie, and this guy, I don't 398 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,240 remember the name, the guy that was like a pastry chef in Copenhagen training Marcus, 399 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:08,240 that guy. 400 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:09,240 Oh yeah. 401 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,560 And he said that he was kind of like the best in the kitchen until he met Karmie. 402 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:18,040 And he saw that this other person was more, more, much better than him. 403 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:23,160 I know like this ability to recognize when the guy next to you is better than you and 404 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:24,880 be able to learn from him. 405 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,800 I think it's vital for your development. 406 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:33,600 And denying that and just thinking you did better even if you didn't. 407 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,920 That's just fooling yourself, you know. 408 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:46,200 Absolutely, you are missing out on an opportunity to learn basically if you don't accept losing. 409 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,480 Because that's the thing, right? 410 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,440 It's kind of like how do you think about losing? 411 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:55,440 You think about losing as like a final thing? 412 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,520 I've lost, that's it, right? 413 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,440 Or is it just a step along the way? 414 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:08,880 A difficult step, a small period of more friction than before. 415 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:14,160 Where it's uncomfortable, friction is uncomfortable, pressure is uncomfortable. 416 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,640 But through that you do go through a process. 417 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:24,880 And losing in whatever way this is, whether this is a bad service. 418 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,600 I feel like I've lost when I had a bad service. 419 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,680 And I also struggle with dealing with it. 420 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,920 Like sometimes I go home and I'm like fuck everything. 421 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,400 Fuck all of this. 422 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,240 But what do you do with it? 423 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:39,240 That is the most important thing. 424 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,320 Because anything can happen, right? 425 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:45,760 But it is how you approach that very thing that makes the difference. 426 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,560 The circumstance is not the thing that dictates what is happening to you and what you take out 427 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:51,560 of it. 428 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,640 You are the person dictating that. 429 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:59,640 And you have the choice of either benefiting from that situation or letting yourself get 430 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,280 swept away and not taking anything from it. 431 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,960 And if you look at it like that, very emotionally detached, you're like, well, of course I'm 432 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,200 going to take something away from it. 433 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,520 And it's like, okay, well, then do that. 434 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,400 But then you have to also live it. 435 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,360 And like you said, it's kind of like, it sucks, right? 436 00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:21,760 Just like if you go back to the martial art thing, it sucks when you get, I don't know, 437 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:22,760 I train your jits. 438 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,640 And if you get caught on the submission, you know, it sucks getting, you know, the shit 439 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,120 squeezed out of your neck and having to tap. 440 00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:31,760 It doesn't feel good, but you learn from it, right? 441 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,920 And you can either say, fuck this, I'm never going to train again. 442 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,760 It's like, well, you're never going to get better and you're always going to get choked 443 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:37,760 out. 444 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:43,840 Or you just continue on and you leave this little moment of pressure behind and you grow 445 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:49,000 out of it. 446 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,040 That's it for this week's episode of Puttlog Food Talks. 447 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,920 If you like what we're doing, make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss 448 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:56,920 an episode. 449 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,160 You can also find us on Instagram and TikTok as Puttlog Food Talks. 450 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:24,080 The show airs every Monday.